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Speaker 1: Bodybugs, but Joseph's gotten more. Have you ever gotten a

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Speaker 1: phone call in the middle of the night and not

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Speaker 1: work related, but you have somebody that at least counts

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Speaker 1: you as a friend and they say, hey, can you

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Speaker 1: help me out with something? Unfortunately, I've had that call

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Speaker 1: that has come to me from jails every now and

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Speaker 1: then with friends that made really bad decisions, primarily involving

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Speaker 1: an alcohol.

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Speaker 2: However, today.

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Speaker 1: On body Backs, we're going to talk about case actually

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Speaker 1: cases that so caught the attention of America, not merely

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Speaker 1: because it was one lady helping out another, but the

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Speaker 1: absolute gruesome nature of their murders was something that most

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Speaker 1: of the people around the United States could not begin

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Speaker 1: to comprehend. This is a follow up to an earlier

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Speaker 1: episode of body Bags, I think from back in April

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Speaker 1: of twenty four, but today we have more information. Today

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Speaker 1: we have the autopsy report of Jillian Dolores.

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Speaker 2: Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.

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Speaker 2: Dave.

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Speaker 1: I know you. I know you better than you might think.

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Speaker 1: I know that if you've got a friend and they

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Speaker 1: called you up to say can you help me with something?

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Speaker 1: You're the dude that would hop in your shoes, grab

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Speaker 1: your keys, and head out to your car and go

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Speaker 1: do this. How much more so if maybe it was

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Speaker 1: where you're put in almost a custodial position with people

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Speaker 1: that have, you know, kind of a fragile existence, perhaps

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Speaker 1: they're really down and out, and the court says, we

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Speaker 1: trust you to take care of this person. I know

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Speaker 1: that you would do that. I even think that maybe

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Speaker 1: you have done that, Joe.

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Speaker 3: You know, I have been the person that gets the

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Speaker 3: call in the middle of the night, and I don't

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Speaker 3: mind it. It's actually an honor and a privilege to

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Speaker 3: be that person. It is inconvenient, you do loosely, but

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Speaker 3: it is an honor to be there for somebody when

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Speaker 3: if they feel like the guy nowhere else to turn,

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Speaker 3: because you earn the right to share the truth with them. Then.

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Speaker 3: But I've had the opportunity to be every aspect of

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Speaker 3: the case we're dealing with to day. With Jilly and

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Speaker 3: Kelly's autops I'm gonna tell you what this woman is,

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Speaker 3: the Saint Joe. Jillian Kelly is married to her pastor husband.

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Speaker 3: They got married in twenty two thousand and two. They

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Speaker 3: have four children. Jillian Kelly works with children in the church.

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Speaker 3: She's the church secretary. Just a wonderful woman. Veronica Butler

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Speaker 3: has supervised visitation with her children. Veronica Butler and Wrangler

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Speaker 3: Rickman have two children. Tiffany Adams is Wrangler Rickman's mom.

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Speaker 3: That makes her the paternal grandparents to Veronica Butler's children.

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Speaker 3: Veronica Butler had trouble in her life in the past,

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Speaker 3: enough so that she lost custody of her children to

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Speaker 3: Tiffany Adams. But now she's righted her life. She's in church,

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Speaker 3: she's engaged, she's got a job, she went back to school.

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Speaker 3: Her life is on track.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: Veronica Butler's doing good, so good. In fact, she's going

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Speaker 3: back to court and they're going to award her custody

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Speaker 3: of her children. She's getting her children back. She's excited,

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Speaker 3: but she's still at this moment has custody every I mean,

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Speaker 3: she has a supervised visitors with her children every Saturday.

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Speaker 3: And Tiffany Adams was not about to give up cussidy

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Speaker 3: of those children to Ronica Butler. She didn't care if

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Speaker 3: that's her mom. She wanted the children and that was it.

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Speaker 3: So Tiffany Adams calls the woman who regularly supervises visitation

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Speaker 3: for Veronica Butler and cancels it. Tiffany Adams tells her,

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Speaker 3: we aren't gonna need you this time. I'll call you

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Speaker 3: when we need you again. Then she calls Veronica Butler

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Speaker 3: and says, hey, Veronica, the court liaison, the supervisor of

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Speaker 3: visitation just canceled. I don't know what we'll do, and

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Speaker 3: Butler says, that's okay. I've got somebody. She goes to

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Speaker 3: Jillian Kelly at church. Jillian says, sure, I'll go. They're

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Speaker 3: not buddies or palas, but they're friendly, and Jillian says, sure,

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Speaker 3: I'll beat the guy.

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Speaker 2: I'll go with you.

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Speaker 3: So Veronica Butler gets Jillian Kelly and here they go.

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Speaker 3: They are going to meet to get the children on

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Speaker 3: March thirtieth. That is what they're going to do. It's

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Speaker 3: arranged for them to meet at this well, it's a

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Speaker 3: close tog station now, but that's where they were going

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Speaker 3: to meet to exchange the children. Bronica Butler would pick

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Speaker 3: them up there and she and Jillian would take Kendall

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Speaker 3: and the other child and go to the birthday party

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Speaker 3: that was planned for Kendall. Well, they never showed up

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Speaker 3: at the birthday party and the family starts calling, hey,

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Speaker 3: Bronicum and Jillian never showed up with the kids, what's

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Speaker 3: going on. That's when we first got this story. These

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Speaker 3: two Kansas moms going to pick up the kids, never

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Speaker 3: arrived with them. What happened.

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Speaker 1: I've covered so many cases and work so many cases

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Speaker 1: over my career where people did not realize that at

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Speaker 1: that moment tom when they walked out of the door

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Speaker 1: they looked into the eyes of their spouse or to

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Speaker 1: their precious babies, that that was going to be the

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Speaker 1: last time they ever saw them. And how much more

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Speaker 1: so not seeing the future, not knowing that your life

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Speaker 1: is going to end literally at the hands of a

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Speaker 1: mob on a dirty, dusty road and a panhandle of Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: I'm born witness to some let's just say, odd and

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Speaker 1: disturbing things in the autopsy suite, and you never, and

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Speaker 1: I mean this with everything that's in me, you never

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen when you open a bodybag.

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Speaker 2: Period.

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Speaker 1: You really you don't know what has been brought in

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Speaker 1: from the field. Because many times, in my case, I'd

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Speaker 1: work at night as an investigator, I'd be the autopsy

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Speaker 1: assistant during the day and it might not be my case.

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Speaker 1: I may have read over a thumbnail description, but Dave,

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Speaker 1: when you come into an autopsy room and there has

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Speaker 1: been a gigantic deep freezer that has been brought from

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Speaker 1: a scene that still has straps on it, you suspect,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator at scene, that what you're going to

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Speaker 1: have in there is going to be very bad. But

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Speaker 1: when you open when you open that door and you

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Speaker 1: look inside of there, there are things in my brain

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Speaker 1: right now that I'm recalling as I'm talking right now,

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Speaker 1: I can still see those images. I can still get

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Speaker 1: hit and even after all these years, I can still

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Speaker 1: get hit in the face with that smell that emanates

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Speaker 1: from the sealed area, which in effect is a casket

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Speaker 1: for not just one, but for two women. Dave, It's

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Speaker 1: it's a monumental undertaking. And I think people many times

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Speaker 1: are shocked that we don't open things, it seems and

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Speaker 1: remove the items. If you have that body or bodies contained,

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Speaker 1: it's best to keep them contained, okay, And then you

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Speaker 1: bring them to a location that is well lighted. You've

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Speaker 1: got primo photography. You document the steps of opening up

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Speaker 1: the thing. And let me tell you one more thing

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Speaker 1: that would have been done prior to them ever, undoing

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Speaker 1: these large yellow straps that are on the outside this

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Speaker 1: freezer would have been thoroughly externally printed, dusted for prints,

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Speaker 1: looking for any kind of latent contact prints. It's a

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Speaker 1: sight to behold because you never know, never know what's

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Speaker 1: going to be contained inside out of any box like this.

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Speaker 1: I've had coffins I've had, I have had not a freezer.

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Speaker 1: I've had a refrigerator where the shells removed. I've had

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Speaker 1: blocks of concrete that have contained human remains where you

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Speaker 1: have to chisel it away. I've had cars where I've

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Speaker 1: had multiple people killed in it. And I used to think,

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Speaker 1: being in charge, you're literally if you're the investigator, you're

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Speaker 1: in charge of the bodies. And we all came to

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Speaker 1: a consensus at the scene that it would be better

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Speaker 1: not to remove the bodies from the car, but have

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Speaker 1: them flat bedded to the state crime lab and you

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Speaker 1: cover it with a tarp, and you know, like you

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Speaker 1: have this horrible thought in your brain that you're literally

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Speaker 1: transporting bodies you're in I remember, in particularly I eighty

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Speaker 1: five in Atlanta, removing a car to a local lot

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Speaker 1: that had five people inside of it and all we

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Speaker 1: had it covered with was a blue crash tarp on

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Speaker 1: the back of a flat bed. And you know, as

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Speaker 1: an investigator, you think your worst nightmare is that the

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Speaker 1: tarp is going to fly off, and here you're gonna have,

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Speaker 1: you know, bodies. If anybody's ever driven through the hellscape

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Speaker 1: that is the highway system in Atlanta, you can get

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Speaker 1: caught up in traffic. They don't they don't move out

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Speaker 1: of the way for a wrecker, they don't move out

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Speaker 1: of the way for cops most of the time. But

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Speaker 1: how much more so than the record and the thing

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Speaker 1: comes off. Can you imagine you've got kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of look and you know it's even

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Speaker 1: to this day when I see things going down the

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Speaker 1: road that are strapped down on the back of a car,

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Speaker 1: like a freezer or something, I'm always thinking, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if that's empty. I wonder if it's empty. And I've

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Speaker 1: had a few times in my life since being on

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Speaker 1: the streets where I've seen police escorting flatbed trucks and

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Speaker 1: they've got a tarp over them, and I know what's

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Speaker 1: under the tar. The civilians stone around you. But you

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Speaker 1: you want to maintain that pristine nature.

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Speaker 3: I was going to ask you when all right, when

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Speaker 3: they got there in the in this particular case, investigators

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Speaker 3: determined where Tad Cullum, that is, the boyfriend of Tiffany Adams,

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Speaker 3: had dug the hole and everything ahead of time, and

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Speaker 3: they found the bodies at the scene. They were ten

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Speaker 3: feet down, okay, a ten feet deep hole had been dug.

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Speaker 3: The freezer was placed at well, some items were thrown in,

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Speaker 3: A phone and some other items of evidence were thrown

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Speaker 3: into the hole. Then the freezer was dumped in there.

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Speaker 3: Then cement block and everything else was then thrown into

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Speaker 3: the hole and then dirt and everything else mashed down

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Speaker 3: when they got it dug up. You said that they're

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Speaker 3: not going to they're not going to take anything out

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Speaker 3: right then, but they still have to identify what is

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Speaker 3: in the freezer, even though they believe it to be

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Speaker 3: Veronica Butler and Jilly and Kelly but well, they're not

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Speaker 3: going to do a big examine and.

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Speaker 1: At the scene, just full disclosure here. They did briefly

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Speaker 1: open it at the scene, so they cracked You cracked

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Speaker 1: the side of it, and there had been tape that

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Speaker 1: was adherent on the outside. It's you know, when this

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Speaker 1: thing is brought to the me. Even in the report

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Speaker 1: section of the autopsy report, and when I say report section,

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Speaker 1: it's actually the medical legal investigations subheading in the report,

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Speaker 1: they allude to the fact that tape was no longer there.

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Speaker 1: So that leads me to believe it had been taped

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Speaker 1: shut at some point in time. Now they had to

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Speaker 1: strap this thing down. But yeah, so they they would

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Speaker 1: have lifted this thing at the scene, peaked over the

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Speaker 1: edge into the cooler or the freezer to assess what

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Speaker 1: was in there, because you know, you don't necessarily know,

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Speaker 1: you have your suspicions. Okay, And here's another thing, and

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Speaker 1: I know this sounds really far field, but if this

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Speaker 1: scene was booby trapped in some way, I mean, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about a double homicide. Okay, it's not beyond the

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Speaker 1: pail to think that someone that was willing to commit

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Speaker 1: this kind of homicide, would you know, perhaps uh, put

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Speaker 1: other people at risk. All right, you don't know. You

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Speaker 1: never know what you're going to get, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you open any door.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's every Yeah, to me.

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Speaker 1: It's terrifying. I've had friends that have that have gone

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Speaker 1: on to booby trapped scenes where people have committed suicide

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Speaker 1: and they're booby trapped with weapons. I have one friend

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Speaker 1: it's almost shot in the in the chest with a

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Speaker 1: three to eight deer rifle because he opened a closet

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Speaker 1: and it had a trigger on it, a line trigger

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Speaker 1: tension thing, no, and he happened to be the round

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Speaker 1: actually passed in front of him. So my my paranoia,

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Speaker 1: I guess, is that the right term is not unwarranted.

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Speaker 1: I look at all of these things as if because

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Speaker 1: I want to go home at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: So you guys, get the breezer back in and you

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Speaker 3: get it. You're afraid as you're getting ready to.

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Speaker 1: Do yeah, wow, Yeah, I know it's terrifying, and.

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Speaker 3: I was terrified by what was inside. Not not a bomb.

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Speaker 1: Body, listen, man, Look, I don't put anything past anybody

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Speaker 1: that'll commit a homicide, particularly of a stranger and then

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Speaker 1: a mother, if they're willing to eradicate them off the

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Speaker 1: face of the plant. My life means nothing to them whatsoever, Okay,

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Speaker 1: or my colleagues that might be there. And that's just

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Speaker 1: like one of the little boxes that you want to

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Speaker 1: tick and check at that point in time and try

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Speaker 1: to understand that but once you get past that, you

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Speaker 1: have to take due care, because, Dave, this freezer, this

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Speaker 1: deep freeze, had been it had the utility of a coffin, right,

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Speaker 1: actually a casket, it was. Yeah, and then I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this question. I'm just

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Speaker 1: throwing this out there, all right. Let me give you

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Speaker 1: the dimensions on this just so that you and our

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Speaker 1: friends can appreciate it. So, not only did they have

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Speaker 1: this rather large freezer, okay, but you'd mentioned something just

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Speaker 1: a second ago, there was a slab of concrete that

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Speaker 1: was placed on top of it. Dave, Let me give

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Speaker 1: you the dimensions.

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Speaker 2: Are you ready, brother? Yep?

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Speaker 1: Okay, The dimensions of the slab of concrete are ninety

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Speaker 1: two inches. Keep in mind, six feet tall is seventy

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Speaker 1: two inches, okay, by sixty inches okay, all right? That's

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Speaker 1: with linked with and the depth of this thing. The

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Speaker 1: thickness of it, dude, the slab is eight inches in thickness.

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Speaker 2: Holy moly, do you realize what.

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Speaker 1: Kind of equipment you would have to have in place

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Speaker 1: in order to move a slab like that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: you could have I don't know, maybe you could have

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Speaker 1: a bunch of really a bunch of robust country boys

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Speaker 1: that could, you know, put to dig their hands into

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Speaker 1: it and drop it down. But I'm not thinking that.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is something first off, you have to

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Speaker 1: acquire it. Where do you even find a slab of

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Speaker 1: that size that's bigger, that's actually bigger than a slab

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Speaker 1: that you would find on top of a standard grave site,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you go to the two huge to

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Speaker 1: the cemetery. Yeah, and you're walking along and they've got

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Speaker 1: the big slabs that are laid down the ground. There's

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Speaker 1: a headstone, there's that's bigger than that. This is something

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Speaker 1: that you would only see probably in construction, all right,

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Speaker 1: and it's that's one of the most striking things, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they would have gotten out to that scene, to

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Speaker 1: the grave site and begun to assess this scene. And

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Speaker 1: remember this is a give or take. Hang on, I've

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Speaker 1: got to review this real quick, because, yeah, you're talking

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Speaker 1: two weeks down range, right, we don't know what the

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Speaker 1: weather was like. They went missing back in March. They're

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Speaker 1: found in April. I know what I would be really

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Speaker 1: interested in knowing is, first off, what type of tracks

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Speaker 1: are around the gravesite, because if you're talking about front

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Speaker 1: and loader or skid.

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Speaker 2: Steer or a skid steer or somebody.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be very distinctive. It's not going to

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Speaker 1: look like tire tracks, dude, And you're talking about carrying

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of weight, not that those things aren't

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Speaker 1: made for that, but if you think about that and

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Speaker 1: the pressure that's going to be applied directly on those tires,

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Speaker 1: the supporting element of that vehicle and pressing it down

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Speaker 1: into the dirt, if you're carrying a heavy load, you're

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Speaker 1: going to get come away with really good impressions from that.

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Speaker 1: And that's very specific to that piece of equipment. This

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Speaker 1: isn't just like a truck Papa's truck driving down a

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Speaker 1: country road. This is something that's very specific. And why

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Speaker 1: would you have a skid steer out in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a field like this.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually it was the area that it was. It

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Speaker 3: was about fifty feet from the dam and there was

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00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,640
Speaker 3: like a shed area out there that Tad had been

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Speaker 3: working on and he notified the owner of the property

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Speaker 3: that he was leasing part of it from that he

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Speaker 3: was going to be doing some work out there. You

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Speaker 3: know that he was going to be burying some ce men.

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Speaker 3: He had told him that. Then this is two days

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Speaker 3: before the bodies were the two days before Veronica Butler

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Speaker 3: and Jillian Kelly went missing. He tells the guy that

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Speaker 3: owns the place, you know, the work he's doing. Then

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Speaker 3: after they go missing, he tells the owner, Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: a suspect. They're missing, and you're a suspect, really, And

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Speaker 3: that's why this fell apart so quick, because, dude.

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Speaker 1: You know, in your brain, okay, let's just say you're.

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Speaker 3: Going to tell anybody you're a suspect.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking let's go back before that, because you know,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those moments where you say, does

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Speaker 1: your mind work? You know, you're sitting there and you're

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Speaker 1: thinking about this, So you're leasing, not purchasing your leasing property.

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Speaker 1: Guess what happens to Lisa's Lisa's runout. Yeah, the property

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Speaker 1: own you know, still retains this. So if he's going

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Speaker 1: to go in I don't know and drop a crop

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Speaker 1: of whatever it is they grow in Oklahoma, weed or

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Speaker 1: corn or whatever it is, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: his plow gets hung up on the lip of this thing.

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Speaker 1: Do you not do you in what universe? Do you

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Speaker 1: think that this is not going to be discovered. My

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Speaker 1: thought was, and this is so horrific, but I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go ahead and say it, because this is what

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Speaker 1: we talk about on body bags.

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Speaker 2: Did did they have.

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Speaker 1: Plans perhaps to passively render these bodies down inside of

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Speaker 1: this thing, come back later when the heat was off,

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Speaker 1: draw it up, or take out those remains and dispose

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Speaker 1: of them in some other way. I toyed with that idea,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I can't. I can't make sense of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the leasing element alone. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're using a skitzteer like this, it's not going

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Speaker 1: to take too long to facilitate a big hole in

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Speaker 1: the ground, if you will. And that's certainly what happened.

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Speaker 1: And again, Dave, as we mentioned earlier, what does this

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Speaker 1: go to, Well, it goes to I don't know, something

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Speaker 1: called premeditation, yep.

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Speaker 3: And that's the killer on all of this. It's the

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Speaker 3: fact that this was planned out, thought out, and they

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Speaker 3: thought this was the best they could come up with.

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Speaker 3: By the way, the location of the bodies in the freezer,

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Speaker 3: eight miles from where the car was stopped, okay, eight

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Speaker 3: miles from where they were abducted, is that's how this

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Speaker 3: was all planned out, Joe. Now they've got the freezer

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Speaker 3: out and you're now transporting it. It's taped, it's tarped

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Speaker 3: and everything else. It gets back to the lab and

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Speaker 3: other than a cursory perfunctory look to see there are

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Speaker 3: two bodies on the inside that two bodies were looking

348
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Speaker 3: for and shutting it. They don't know if there's anything

349
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Speaker 3: else in there. They don't know if this freezer has

350
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Speaker 3: other things, other people even they just know they saw

351
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Speaker 3: two bodies that the women they're looking for. And so

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00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 3: back of the lab when you open it up, we

353
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Speaker 3: know that they've been in there for two weeks at least,

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Speaker 3: you know, because we know when they went missing, and

355
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Speaker 3: we know when they found the freezer.

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Speaker 2: So there you go.

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Speaker 3: They were killed the day they were abducted, apparently, is

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Speaker 3: what it appears. Based on the road, based on the

359
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Speaker 3: blood at the scene in the road, based on the

360
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Speaker 3: blood in the vehicle where the vehicle came to rest

361
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Speaker 3: one thousand feet from the road, Take two and two,

362
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Speaker 3: they were dead.

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Speaker 1: And the broken of the broken hammer, which is a

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Speaker 1: nice a nice touch, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, chances are if they break a hammer beating you,

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Speaker 3: you're not surviving that beating.

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Speaker 1: No you're not.

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Speaker 3: But once they get them back to the crime lab

369
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Speaker 3: or the where do they take these to do an

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Speaker 3: autopsy with the state.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to go in and it's dependent the

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma does not have corners, all right, and this is

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Speaker 1: where they have. Yeah, they have, they have, and it's

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Speaker 1: a fine office. They actually have a state medical examiner.

375
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Speaker 1: So the state is kind of regionalized, all right. And

376
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Speaker 1: you've got the Central Division, the Eastern Division. I think

377
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Speaker 1: the Eastern Division is based in Tulsa, and of course

378
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Speaker 1: the Central Divisions in Oklahoma City.

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Speaker 3: You know what, I just remembered.

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Speaker 1: What's up?

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Speaker 3: Though? You have told me how good they are in

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma in the system they use. I just remember. It

383
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Speaker 3: just came to mind that you've bragged about how good

384
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Speaker 3: they are before.

385
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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big fan of medical examiner systems, particularly statewide,

386
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Speaker 1: that are not administered by police or the law enforcement agency.

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Speaker 2: If you have.

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Speaker 1: A a state medical examiner that is administered primarily by

389
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 1: the Health Department, it turns out better for everybody. Because

390
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, for us in my world, and uh, we're

391
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: not merely interested in homicides. We do as a matter

392
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 1: of fact, we handle more natural deaths, so that you know,

393
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: that feeds directly into the mission of Public Health and

394
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: state the State Health Department, and we work you know,

395
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: they work with the police, they have investigators and all that,

396
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: but their job is different. So in most places, I

397
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: can't speak specifically, but I would imagine that they might

398
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: have a separate decomp room, which many facilities I have been,

399
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: and we kind of break it down like this where

400
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: you have a clean, clean area and then a decomp area,

401
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: and even the bodies are stored separately. You don't have

402
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: decomp bodies most of the time the main cooler with

403
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: fresh dead and you can do more in that environment.

404
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: Anthropologists generally has a space in there so that they

405
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: can do their exams, which are mind blowing that we

406
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: can talk about another time. But you have that environment

407
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: there that has to be controlled. And when you go

408
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: into this thing, everybody that is in this room, Dave,

409
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: they appreciate the fragility of everything that is contained not

410
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: just within the freezer but also externally. So kind of

411
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: the cast of characters you're going to have in there

412
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: is probably going to be the lead investigator. You're going

413
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: to have maybe a couple of medical legal death investigators

414
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: and an autopsy assistant in there, the primary or the

415
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: medical examiner, the forensic pathologists directing everything, and then there

416
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: will there's a high probability you're going to have a

417
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: crim scene tech there as well. And so what will

418
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: happen is that one of the EMME investigators will take

419
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: photographs for the medical examiner, but the crimsing investigator will

420
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: also take photographs, but for their purposes. It's for their reference. Okay,

421
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: so you've got two sets of photography. Many times with

422
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 1: a case that's going on like this, not always the time.

423
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll have people that have this kind of sharing,

424
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, of of the images back and forth. No,

425
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: it's on you. You take the photographs today. But you know,

426
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: the doctors, like cops are not necessarily interested in taking

427
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: pictures of organs or the detailed anatomy. And there is

428
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: a specific practice called medical photography that you get really

429
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: good at because you have to understand anatomy. And I'm

430
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: not I'm not sliding uh police police photographers, but in

431
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: our world, in the medical legal world, you need a

432
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: specific skill set in order to appreciate what the physician

433
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: is talking about, Like if he says or she says,

434
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: I want police take a photograph of the right greater

435
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: horn of the highwaid bone. Wow, the crumbsing detective is

436
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: not necessarily going to know what they're talking about. Yeah, yeah,

437
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: they're just not going to do it now. The you know,

438
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: I've seen you know, uh, forends of pathologists that will

439
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: give almost a primal grunt and point. I used to

440
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: work with with one forensic pathologist in the past that

441
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: would use his knife to point at everybody. It carry

442
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: a huge butsher knife and it was always covered in

443
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: blood and he would he had this kind of primal

444
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: grunting thing that he would go and he had very

445
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: interesting personality to say at the least, but that's how he

446
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: would direct you. But if you have somebody that's familiar

447
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: with human anatomy and all of those anatomical points or

448
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: landmarks that we're looking for not just externally but internally

449
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: when the body is open. So that's kind of the

450
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: cast characters here. And you don't know what type of

451
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: evidence is going to be recovered. And let's just say

452
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: because at this point when you open up, when you

453
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: open up this this freezer, you don't know what the

454
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: cause of death is you have no idea. That's why

455
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: you're doing the autopsy. So when you open this up,

456
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: you could find things like ballistic evidence in there, or

457
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: if there is a projectile inside of the body. I've

458
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: seen I've seen medical examiners do two things. I've seen

459
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: them actually, in the case of a projectile, remove it

460
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: and they take a diamond tipped a diamond tipped pen

461
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: and yes, that's what I said. And they go to

462
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: the base of a projectile that's removed and they will

463
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: actually initially on the bottom and that indicates that I'm

464
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: the one that removed it, and they'll include that in there.

465
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: And then I've seen them take other bits of evidence,

466
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: including ballistic evidence, and turn it over directly to a

467
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: detective or to a crime scene technician that's present at

468
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: the autopsy. It's a weird kind of orchestration that has

469
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: to go on. And with this particular case cases, this

470
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: is dense material dave. Scientifically, from a forensics perspective, this

471
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: is about as complex as things can get because you're

472
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: introducing something into the environment that is not it's an

473
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: unknown relative to the container itself. How are you going

474
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: to manage this and how are you going to manage

475
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: it so you don't screw it up, Because if you

476
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: screw it up with really doing the big bold opening

477
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: of the thing, you can eradicate evidence because.

478
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: You only get one shotages you can and redo it.

479
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: You're absolutely no do overs, no mulligans. If you're a golfer,

480
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: you don't get to do it over because once it's gone,

481
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: it's gone. If there is even a hair, you know,

482
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: keep in mind with any kind of freezer refrigerator, uh,

483
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: there's a big kind of rubber plastic foam gasket.

484
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Right.

485
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so let's pretend that somebody is has killed

486
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: someone and they want to put them into this. We've

487
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: already stated how deep this thing is, all right, how

488
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: deep this this freezer is. Well, you're leaning over the side.

489
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: Guess what you're coming in contact with your clothing. You're

490
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: coming in contact with the gasket that goes around there.

491
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: Guess what you can pick up on that gasket. Well,

492
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: any kind of fiber, evidence, hair, anything, you're shedding skin

493
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: that could be the perpetrator or at least the person

494
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: that was in concert with the perpetrator that is placing

495
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: that body down into that. So you have to even

496
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: be careful in that area because that freezer. First off,

497
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: the freezer is unique, the brand, it's going to have

498
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: a serial number. It's probably in most of those things

499
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: have got like a you know what I'm talking about.

500
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: It's got that kind of aluminum tag thing that's bolted

501
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: what it is, Yeah, and where it was manufactured even

502
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: and it probably in those little coating numbers they have.

503
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: I hope that somebody will correct me if I'm wrong,

504
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: but in those little they probably had the batch that

505
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: the thing came off the line with it. You know,

506
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: you can look at that number and go back to

507
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: the factory, frigid are or whoever it is, and say, hey,

508
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: I've got this number. When did the thin come off

509
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: the line? Where did it go to when it came

510
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: off line? When to big box store? A you go

511
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: to them and say, hey, I've got this. You receive dispatch?

512
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: Do you know who bought this?

513
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: Well?

514
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 3: Our record served.

515
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: I don't go back that far because I have to think.

516
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: My big question is is this freezer viable? Does it

517
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: still work or is it just something that they had

518
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: laying out back. Well, if it was laying out back,

519
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: freezer's not something you just walk by and ignore. Just

520
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: imagine the power of some witness that might have been

521
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: peripheral to the peripheral to these people. Prosecution puts them

522
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: on the on the stand and said, mister Smith, have

523
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: you ever seen a freezer similar to the one pictured

524
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: here in the image that you're taking a look at

525
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: in the past when you've come over for picnics or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

526
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: I've I've seen one like that. It was out back

527
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: of the bar and they'd had it for years, and

528
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: I never could understand what they were keeping that thing.

529
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: For, keeping it for a makeshift cast.

530
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just you never know. So I hope I'm

531
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: painting an effective picture here as to how critical all

532
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: of this is. And I'm so glad it thrills me

533
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: to my core that you said that you get one

534
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: shot at it, Dave. You know, because once you crack

535
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: this thing open, you're bearing witness to something that the

536
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: line share of people in their entire life, they live

537
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: five lifetimes, they're not going to see anything like what

538
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: was revealed when that door was open the day. Okay,

539
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 1: I want all of our friends to understand what I'm

540
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: about to do here, because we don't get cases like

541
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: this most of the time. Just this past week I

542
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: came into possession of the autopsy report from Kelly, and

543
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: I kind of want to break this down, break it

544
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: down for those that might be curious, and I'll kind

545
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: of we'll go through the highlights of it and talk

546
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: about it. With this proviso, there is a high probability

547
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: that within the next couple of weeks of this recording,

548
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: we're going to uh receive the second autopsy on Miss Butler,

549
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: will receive that autopsy report. It's at that point in

550
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: time we'll revisit and you know, kind of go through

551
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: that autopsy as well, because Dave, the physical findings you

552
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: know that you have described here, Remember how we've talked

553
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: about before, the dead do in fact have a tail

554
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: to tell, and it can be told in many ways.

555
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: I think probably the first thing that you're going to

556
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: look at when you have this kind of miniature and

557
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: I want to call it, this miniature crime scene that.

558
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: Literally literally is delivered.

559
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: To to the medical examiner's office, when your initial viewing

560
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: of this of the interior of the scene, this this

561
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: is like viewing two bodies laying on the floor in

562
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: a standalone home that have been executed but yet that

563
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: dynamic is now brought into the autopsy suite. And so

564
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: when we crack that door open and we look within

565
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: this thing, the first thing I'm going to try to

566
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: piece together here is, well, what position are they in?

567
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: I think that that's probably one of the biggest tells.

568
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: Dave.

569
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: All Right, So when they open it up, they look

570
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: in and they see there's dirt, there's fluid, there's straw,

571
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: and there are two bodies, and they can tell right

572
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: off that Veronica Butler is on top of Jilly and Kelly.

573
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: Jilly and Kelly have been put in first, Veronica Butler

574
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 3: put on top of her. Does that tell you, as

575
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: an investigator anything?

576
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, and you can kind of.

577
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: Extrapolate some thoughts about this. I believe.

578
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: You could say that they were killed roughly at the

579
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: same time and then essentially discarded into this container. Okay,

580
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the more chilling views of this,

581
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: because I still I don't know if there's any way

582
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: you could ever convince me that miss Kelly was the

583
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: target here, the primary target. Some people could perhaps say

584
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: that miss Kelly did die first, and because there's so

585
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: much hatred and anger directed at the target, who is

586
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: Veronica Butler? You really wonder and I'm sure that this

587
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: is something that is it has been explored and is

588
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: continuing to be explored. I wonder if missus Butler, in

589
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: order to terrify her in some way, if she was

590
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: forced to watch miss Kelly die. Miss Kelly died pretty quickly,

591
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: and I can go into that here shortly and then

592
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: following that Miss Butler is killed and her body is placed,

593
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 1: and I think placed is kind of a misstatement there.

594
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, tossed a side like rubbish

595
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: into this container. I think my big question is sequencing.

596
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that we will ever be able to

597
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: address the specific sequence unless one of this, you know,

598
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: this kind of twisted confederacy rolls over on somebody else

599
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: that begins to you know, as they say, sing like

600
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: a bird, because I can tell you, I can tell

601
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: you that, well, I'll tell you this though. This thing's

602
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: going to be tried in Oklahoma, and Bubba Oklahoma's got

603
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: death penalty and they are not shy about using it.

604
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 3: So they don't have to negotiate anything. They've already got.

605
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: They already have enough evidence, Joe for all of the

606
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: involvement of these people, the pre planning that went into it,

607
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: the first aborted attempt to drop an anvil on Veronica

608
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: Butler's car while she's driving. Now you've got them there

609
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 3: together with Jillian Kelly, wrong place, wrong time, being a

610
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 3: nice woman. She ends up dead in a freezer. Now

611
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: they got to remove Veronica to get to Jillian Kelly.

612
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: They have to take Veronica Butler's body out of the freezer.

613
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, what do you do to do that? Because

614
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: they get in there for two weeks? Man, Yeah, you

615
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: get a big group of people.

616
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: First off, you're going to document the bodies thoroughly inside.

617
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking about not just the measurements of the body,

618
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: but the measurements of the interior. And this is kind

619
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: of interesting. I was giving us a think if you've

620
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: got any kind of like dynamic blood deposition that's inside

621
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: of that.

622
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean by that?

623
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: Well, remember we got a broken hammer, right, Yeah, and

624
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I think you don't know, you've

625
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: got a lot of commingle trauma here. I think with

626
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: miss Kelly, I don't know if the hammer's been used

627
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: on her as a means to kill her. It appears,

628
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: based upon what I'm seeing, that a sharp edged instrument

629
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: was used. They don't talk about lacerations, and as we've

630
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: talked about previously on bodybags, lacerations are generated by blunt

631
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: force trauma. And so that is the skin being struck

632
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: with something and baseball, bat ball, pen hammer, claw hammer,

633
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: a lamp, I don't you know, whatever it might be.

634
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: The skin literally tears and that creates a lacerational laceration.

635
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Is not, and let me repeat, is not a cut.

636
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: That's not what they're saying about. Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly

637
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: has and hold on to your hat here, Dave. Miss

638
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: Kelly alone and again keeping him on. She's not who

639
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: we would believe to be the primary target day she

640
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: stabbed or cut. She has sixteen sharp forse injuries sixteen. Okay,

641
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: she's not the primary and she's not the primary. So

642
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm very interested to see what Miss Butler's autopsy will reveal,

643
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: because you know they're going to they would have been

644
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: doing a dual assessment at this point in time. My

645
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: suspicion is is that though we have Miss Kelly's autopsy

646
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: report released first, there's a high probability that they did

647
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: Miss Butler's autopsy. Secondly, I don't know why it would

648
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: take longer to get her autopsy out to the public

649
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: unless maybe there is more trauma with her body that

650
00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: required further assessment. I'm still not completely ignored wearing the

651
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: hammer you know that was found, because I don't know

652
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: what Miss Butler's injuries are at this time when I

653
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: see what they did. Though to Miss Kelly, nothing and

654
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean nothing is off the table. And just so

655
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: let me break this down further relative to the injuries.

656
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: So with Miss Kelly, we're talking about nine stab wounds.

657
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: That means these are penetrating wounds where the knife is

658
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: being driven in to an individual stabbing. Okay, then we

659
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: have seven incized wounds. So just think about cutting an object.

660
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: If you've got vegetables, like they're on cutting board, Okay,

661
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: you can say they're being chopped, but they're actually being

662
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: incized or sliced. Well, in sized injuries are slices, Okay.

663
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: So the general the rule of thumb here is that

664
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: stab wounds are are deeper but more narrow, and in

665
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: sized wounds are longer and shallow. Okay. Now, I've seen

666
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: in sized ones where they're really really deep, but those

667
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: are outliers, okay, for for our purposes. And on top

668
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: of this, she's got two more insized wounds that are

669
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: that are noted that well, they're in the they're in

670
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: the description of the but they're they're very distinctive. And David,

671
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: this is a big tail here. Miss Kelly actually has

672
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: actually has defensive wounds on her hand. Oh wow, where

673
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: she's grabbed the blade. She's actually grabbed the blade and

674
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: the blade has been drug through her finger and it's

675
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: on both hands. I think one of the one of

676
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: the insized injuries is the left index finger, okay, and

677
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: then the one on the right hand is actually the

678
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: right thumb. These are not stab wounds to the hands.

679
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 1: This is indicative of her trying to defend herself and

680
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: placing her hands up in a defensive posture, almost like

681
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: a boxer, and as the knife is coming, you grab

682
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: it and then the knife is withdrawn and it cuts

683
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: that surface. Now, her injuries primarily are lateral and posterior lateral,

684
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: which means on the side and then to the rear.

685
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: And Dave, there's nothing other than the hands. The hands

686
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: are separate. There's nothing on her injury.

687
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: Wise where.

688
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: These insized injuries extend below the level of the shoulder blades.

689
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: So this is all up top. Well, what does that

690
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: tell me? That tells me that whoever did this was

691
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: in close proximity to her, And he said, Morgan, it's

692
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of obvious. No, it's not, because you can have

693
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: somebody that's running away and being stabbed, and they might

694
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: random stab These things are concentrated day and they're really

695
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: concentrated heavily on the neck.

696
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: Okay, they were kill shots. They were trying to kill.

697
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're going right, They're going right for the spine.

698
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 1: And and I'm not going to say luckily here, I'm

699
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: going to say, how can I phrase this mercifully? I

700
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 1: hope her her spinal cord is essentially severed. Where if

701
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: if you'll feel the back of your head, okay, find

702
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: that kind of protuberant area that's on the back of

703
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 1: your skull, that bump, that huge bump that's actually referred

704
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: to as the occipital protuberance or the ox a. Put

705
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: it's part of the brain, it's part of the skull bone.

706
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: Well that houses right there, that houses where our cerebellum is,

707
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: which is separate from the cerebrum, the cerebellum. Your brain

708
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: stem passes through there. That's literally where your spinal cord begins.

709
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 1: Dave her her spinal cord probably at about the C one,

710
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: which is referred to as the atlas. The atlas is

711
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: the first vertebral body to call it atlas, because it's

712
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: like Atlas holding up the world. Her spinal cord is

713
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: cut right there, and the doctor has actually rendered an

714
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: opinion here that this is a non viable insult that

715
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: she has sustained. Uh mean, yeah, it's incompatible what the

716
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: term they'd love to use, is incompatible with life because

717
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: you're you're now going into at that level, that that

718
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: cervical level, you're going in affecting the autonomic nervous system.

719
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Well, your ability to breathe, your heart,

720
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: to function, uh, to sense those sorts of things. We

721
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: can only hope that that that was the case, uh

722
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: for you know, for for miss miss Kelly, and you know,

723
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: under these circumstances. I think that when you know, you

724
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: begin to do an assessment like this, and she they

725
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: would have done this with with both of these bodies. Okay,

726
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: when her body is removed from this freezer, immediate. You can't.

727
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: You could, but you're not going to be very effective

728
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: her body. When her body is removed, the first thing

729
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: you're gonna do is X ray the body. People think

730
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: about bullets many times, leaving that kind of lead storm,

731
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: you know, the little particular bits of lead. Dave, did

732
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: you know that when you stab somebody, particularly if you're

733
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: striking bone over and over again, the blade will actually

734
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: shere a bit. And I've recovered I've actually recovered the

735
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: tips of blades buried in vertebral bodies where they've been

736
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 1: it's been kind of snapped off. And so you would

737
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: X ray that, And how powerful is that image? You know?

738
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: And when you put up blood the images from an

739
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: autopsy report, sometimes they'll say no, no, no, no, no,

740
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: can't use those, they're too prejudicial. You use an image

741
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: of an X ray and you show, well, here's a

742
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: bit of steel or it's radio opaque. Rather that's showing up.

743
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: This is tied back to a knife. This gives you

744
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: an idea of placement, and you're not having to look

745
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: through gore. You're just looking at standard X ray, you know,

746
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: like you would get for pneumonia or head injury or

747
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: neck injury or broken arm. It's the same thing. So

748
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: there's no gore involved with it, and it's very it's very,

749
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: very powerful, so you have to be very careful. The

750
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: only way though, I think that one of the big

751
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: questions here is when you read an autopsy report, you're

752
00:45:50,560 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 1: thinking that perhaps perhaps you can sequence these injuries. It's

753
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: really really hard to sequence, you know, sequence an injury.

754
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is the order in

755
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: which these these insults or you know, we're struck, you know.

756
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: And what they'll do when you get when you get

757
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: a knife wound like this, they'll assign a random number.

758
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: And that random number that you see is not indicative

759
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: of the order in which it occurred. It's merely there

760
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: as a guardrail to say, I've identified this one, and

761
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: this is what we're calling it number one. And like,

762
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: for instance, the first one that she sustained that they're

763
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: calling wound number one is a horizontal in sized wound

764
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: to the posterior lower head, which means, if you again

765
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: put your hand back here below the occy put David

766
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: knife was drug over the surface of her scalp right there, okay,

767
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: and it's literally about ten centimeters below the top of

768
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: the head, you know, which I think translates to roughly,

769
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: I want to say, about three inches, you know, down

770
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: the back of her head. So and it's it's that's

771
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: the distance below and it's about seven seven centimeters in length.

772
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 1: It's three centimeters deep.

773
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: This is this is a deep.

774
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: Wound, Okay, that's passing through not just the hair and

775
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: skin and sub continuous fat, it's going all the way

776
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: through that little layer of muscle, and also striking you know,

777
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: striking the underlying bone. And one of the interesting things

778
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: they found out about this day, just this wound alone.

779
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: This is how complex this is. Just this wound alone

780
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: generated three separate knife markings on the surface of the bone. Dave, Okay,

781
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: that's how ferocious this was. And they're talking about how

782
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: the lower oxy put or the occipital protuberance was actually chipped.

783
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: Do you realize how hard it is to chip a bone.

784
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: It's so it requires a tremendous amount of power and

785
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: directed force. So this goes to the idea that I

786
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: think she would have been attacked while laying, probably in

787
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 1: a prone position, so she's on her belly. They talked

788
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: about how her clothes are soiled well, if you've got

789
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: somebody and I had quoted, I'd use this term earlier

790
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: with you. I think in the Bible there's a couple

791
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: of times where they say the people fell upon an individual,

792
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: and when they fall upon an injury, that means that's

793
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 1: an attack. Okay, so they fell upon this poor woman.

794
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if they've got multiple people holding her down,

795
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: but the individual would have been exerting their downward weight

796
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: on her back. Hence, that explains why you don't have

797
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: injuries that are going any further south than the shoulder blades,

798
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: because they're not going to stab themselves. Okay, they're going

799
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: to stab up okay or not, they're.

800
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: Going to be mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

801
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: Now I couldn't figure that out when I was reading

802
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 3: over this before we started taping. I'm going through this

803
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: going what in the world. I couldn't figure that out.

804
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: So it's a tight cluster that's in here, and you know,

805
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about multiple injuries, and it looks like some

806
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: of these might be misstrikes. Like if you're if you're

807
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: trying to drive the knife down, Let's say you're focused

808
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: on on the on the spinal column itself and you

809
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: have or you know, in their mind the brain. Okay,

810
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: but you're striking the spinal column. This is not like

811
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: some spy movie where some assassin walks up behind somebody

812
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: and takes an ice pick or a knife and just

813
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: kind of pushes it up through the bottom. You know

814
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: that classic scene from Goodfellas in the back seat with

815
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: the ice pick. That's a concentrated, specific area. This is

816
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: a frenzied event, Dave, again, I think you can translate

817
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: that into a lot of anger, you know, And why

818
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: would this precious woman have this much anger directed at

819
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: her when she's you know, she's she's this you know,

820
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: this angel on earth that's trying to help, that's trying

821
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: to help help miss Butler along the way. So you know,

822
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: we've got we've got sixteen sharp force injuries that run,

823
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, essentially from north to south. These things are

824
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: highly complex. They're going through multiple, multiple areas of interest.

825
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: Many of these things do in fact come along with hemorrhage.

826
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: And as we've discussed in the past, you know, if

827
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: you have an injury and there's indwelling in dwelling hemorrhage

828
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: associated with it, then we know, we know that the

829
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: individual's heart is still beating, okay, that the blood is

830
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: coursing through their veins, and because that it's a trauma response.

831
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: When you clip a vessel, even a capillary like that,

832
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: a capillary bed, you're going to bleed out into that area.

833
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: So the doctor is actually seen with many of these,

834
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: is actually seeing presentation of hemorrhage along the way. And

835
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,959
Speaker 1: one of the more ghastly issues with this is that

836
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 1: I hate to even really say this, but Dave, four

837
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 1: of her cervical vertebras are involved in this attack. You've

838
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: got C two, C three, C four, C five. Okay,

839
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: you've got the bony. If you've ever seen a spinal

840
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 1: p hower of vertebral process, it's got these little horns

841
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: that stick off of it. They've in a couple of

842
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: spots those horns have been broken off. Just featured that

843
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: just for a second.

844
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 2: So this attack is absolutely vicious aget and.

845
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: She's not even the intended target, David. That's I think

846
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: that that's my my big, my big.

847
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 2: Takeaway with this.

848
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: She's also got you know, these kind of like she's

849
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: got a superficial in sized wound that's on the top

850
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: of left shoulder, there's there's no associated hemorrhage with that wound.

851
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: That's a post hornum post mortem injury. But that's on

852
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: the top. And then if you if you go down

853
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: slightly on the posterior left shoulder, so we're talking about

854
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: the left. If you take your left hand, put it

855
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: on top of your shoulder, that's the top of your

856
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: left left shoulder. If you go behind its slightly dropped

857
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: down just below that area. Uh, you've got another shoulder

858
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: injury and the posterior left shoulder where there is hemorrhage.

859
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: So they've been they've they spent quite a bit of

860
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: time driving this knife both into her body, uh, slicing

861
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: her body, and you know, as a you know, kind

862
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: of an added bit here meeting her parry, which is

863
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, when you a sword term, you know, if

864
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: you're going to parry, it's like a defensive moon move.

865
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: She's pairying with her hands, so they've sliced her hands

866
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: as well, defensively on her parties defensively. So you've got

867
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: all of these injuries that are specifically you know, tied

868
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: tied back, you know, to to this poor woman and

869
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: what led to her death. I think, you know, I'm hoping,

870
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: I'm hoping against hope, Dave, that she did not experience

871
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: the level of pain that could potentially be associated with

872
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: all of these insults to her body. I'm hoping against

873
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: hope that that strike that we talked about that was

874
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: like C one C two region there, that it was

875
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: a fatal blow and that she didn't sense anything. But

876
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: either way that you look at this case, the level

877
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: of brutality that is involved in this thing, you find

878
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: it very difficult to plumb the depths of it because

879
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: it is so very extensive. We're going to wait and

880
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: see what the autopsy of Veronica Butler reveals, but I

881
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: can tell you this, whatever happened out there in that

882
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: desolate area, it's the stuff of nightmares and things that

883
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: we cannot even begin to fathom. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

884
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: and this is Bodybots.