WEBVTT - Turning Pollution into Jet Fuel 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:26.596 Pushkin. Today's show includes, among other things, directed evolution, rabbit poop, 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:37.876 sustainable aviation fuel, and polyester. Let's do It. I'm Jacob 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:40.716 Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:43.996 I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 0:00:44.596 --> 0:00:48.316 My guest today is Jennifer Holmgren, the CEO of lonz Tech. 0:00:49.036 --> 0:00:52.396 Jennifer's problem is this, how do you take pollution from 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:57.076 steel plants, smokestacks, beat it to bacteria and get the 0:00:57.116 --> 0:01:02.636 bacteria to excrete Ethanol. Ethanol is a kind of alcohol. 0:01:02.876 --> 0:01:05.756 It's the kind of alcohol you drink, and in addition 0:01:05.836 --> 0:01:08.836 to being made in the alcohol you drink, ethanol is 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:12.756 made as a fuel additive. In that context, it's often 0:01:12.756 --> 0:01:17.396 made from corn or sugarcane. But expanding the footprint of 0:01:17.476 --> 0:01:21.956 industrial agriculture to grow, say more corn for fuel, can 0:01:22.036 --> 0:01:26.396 mean more emissions and higher food prices. Hence the idea 0:01:26.436 --> 0:01:30.196 behind lonz tech find a different source of ethanol, one 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:34.356 that doesn't require food crops. Lonza Tech was founded in 0:01:34.396 --> 0:01:37.676 two thousand and five by two scientists from New Zealand. 0:01:38.196 --> 0:01:41.156 Jennifer Holmgren was not one of them. She joined the 0:01:41.156 --> 0:01:44.636 company as CEO in twenty ten, when Lonzo Tech was 0:01:44.676 --> 0:01:47.516 moving from a sort of proof of concept to scaling 0:01:47.636 --> 0:01:50.916 in the real world. We started our conversation by talking 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:54.236 about the scientific work that led to the company's creation. 0:01:56.036 --> 0:02:00.116 So is it right that the first kind of insight 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:05.276 or idea is that there is a bacteria that ideally, 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:10.156 theoretically could turn pollution carbon monoxide into ethanol. 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:14.836 That's right. And the founders knew that this was possible 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:19.116 because they knew that they were gas eating organisms, and 0:02:19.196 --> 0:02:21.316 they were able to go to a library in Germany 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:24.556 which stores organisms that are known and cataloged and say 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:26.196 I want that one, and that one and that one, 0:02:26.676 --> 0:02:28.956 and bring it to their lab and start using it. 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:32.196 So they were getting like vials of bacteria. 0:02:32.836 --> 0:02:35.636 Yeah, yeah, huh yeah, absolutely. 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:36.956 And did they find one that worked. 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.556 Absolutely. But they had to do a lot of optimization 0:02:40.756 --> 0:02:44.636 because it's a bacteria that wants to make a different molecule, acetate, 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:47.956 and they wanted to make ethanol, and so they had 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:50.556 to do a lot of work to optimize the bacteria. 0:02:50.636 --> 0:02:53.676 And they did it without using genetic methods. They did 0:02:53.756 --> 0:02:56.796 it all by directed evolution, kind of like you you know, 0:02:56.836 --> 0:02:59.476 put two orkids together to make a third, So let's. 0:02:59.316 --> 0:03:01.316 Let's talk about that a little bit. So what what 0:03:01.436 --> 0:03:03.076 was the bacteria that they found. 0:03:04.476 --> 0:03:08.636 It's called C. Auto. So the long name is C. 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:14.236 Auto orhanogenum, and we call it seouto, and it is 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:18.196 an anaerobe. You can only find it in places where 0:03:18.196 --> 0:03:21.396 there's no oxygen, but it was around at the beginning 0:03:21.516 --> 0:03:25.236 of the Earth when there was no oxygen. 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:28.676 Glory days exactly. 0:03:28.836 --> 0:03:31.236 It's glory days. We like to say, it's our great 0:03:31.236 --> 0:03:33.076 great great great great grandfather. 0:03:33.236 --> 0:03:35.876 Yeah, where does it hide? Where does a where does 0:03:35.916 --> 0:03:38.236 a microbe that doesn't like oxygen hide? Today? 0:03:38.516 --> 0:03:43.436 Well, it's been found in you know, gut biome like 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.596 from rabbits. It's been found in. 0:03:48.676 --> 0:03:50.236 Is it true that it's in rabbit poop? 0:03:50.796 --> 0:03:53.476 Well? Yeah, so I was trying to be more delicate 0:03:53.516 --> 0:03:58.276 and saying bottom, yeah, take rabbit poop. Yeah, it's found 0:03:58.276 --> 0:04:00.836 in rabbit poop. So for all we know, it could 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:03.196 be in our guts too. I don't know, but it's 0:04:03.236 --> 0:04:07.916 definitely in rabbit pooh. It is in you can find 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:10.876 it in vents, underwaters, you can find it in all 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:14.556 of these places where and it's that's actually one of 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:19.116 the neat things about this bacteria. It is robust, it's strong, 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:23.076 and it doesn't like oxygen, so oxygen will kill it. 0:04:23.556 --> 0:04:27.236 But it is something that allows you to do industrial biotech. 0:04:27.476 --> 0:04:33.436 Huh. So they find this very ancient bacteria. It's robust, 0:04:33.876 --> 0:04:38.396 but it's not it's not evolved to make ethanol. It's 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:40.436 not evolved to make what you want. What's it evolved 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:40.756 to make? 0:04:41.276 --> 0:04:45.756 It makes acitate as a primary product. So yeah, they 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:48.836 evolved it to make ethanol as the primary product. 0:04:48.916 --> 0:04:52.636 So there is this sort of field of directed evolution, right, 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:55.436 that is that that they're using here to like tell 0:04:55.436 --> 0:04:59.196 me about directed evolution. That's a relatively young field in 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:00.996 this context, right, What is it? What does it mean? 0:05:01.036 --> 0:05:01.676 How do you do it? 0:05:02.556 --> 0:05:07.596 Well, it means you're putting stress on the bacteria and 0:05:08.556 --> 0:05:11.956 select colonies that are making what you wanted to make, 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:15.476 and if you wanted to make ethanol, you select for those. 0:05:15.756 --> 0:05:19.916 So eventually, through sort of applying selective pressure in this way, 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:25.436 they get to a strain of c auto that loves 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:26.196 to make ethanol. 0:05:26.596 --> 0:05:26.836 Yep. 0:05:27.196 --> 0:05:30.156 Okay, yep. And that's around the time you get to 0:05:30.276 --> 0:05:31.756 the company, Is that right? 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:35.716 Yeah, So there was still optimization to be done, and 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:38.676 they had started using doing a pilot at a steel 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:43.116 mill in New Zealand, and so I knew the system worked. 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:47.396 I just didn't know how scalable it was to commercial scale. 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.236 And by scalable I don't mean that you couldn't build 0:05:50.236 --> 0:05:52.076 a big one, but that you could make money for 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:53.516 me building a big one. 0:05:53.756 --> 0:05:57.996 That's such a huge issue, right, Like this idea of 0:05:57.996 --> 0:06:02.396 people call it technoeconomics. Like there are a million clever 0:06:02.636 --> 0:06:06.916 ideas like this that are elegant and intellectually satisfying. But 0:06:07.156 --> 0:06:11.876 in this big sort of commodity, global scale world, the 0:06:11.956 --> 0:06:14.476 question is like, great, but can you make it at 0:06:14.476 --> 0:06:19.756 a competitive price at scale? Right? So how do you 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:21.196 start to answer that question? 0:06:22.276 --> 0:06:25.476 Well, I think you need to start with what you 0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:28.396 think you can do, and then you validate it as 0:06:28.396 --> 0:06:31.516 you go from lab to pilot to demo, and then 0:06:31.556 --> 0:06:33.476 you ask yourself what else do I need to do 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:37.756 to make it economic? And in our case, it's a 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:44.396 really great bioreactor. It's also water recycling and media. If 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:48.196 you don't you know, let me explain media. So when 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.756 you grow a plant, you need fertilizer, right, nitrogen sulfur. 0:06:52.996 --> 0:06:55.476 And so what we had to do was figure out 0:06:55.516 --> 0:06:58.116 how to feed at a minimum amount of nitrogen and 0:06:58.156 --> 0:07:02.636 sulfur envitnments. All of these little things energy use, All 0:07:02.676 --> 0:07:06.276 of these impact the cost and so in a lot 0:07:06.356 --> 0:07:09.076 of ways, I like to think of a technoeconomic analysis 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:11.996 as a tool that allows you to say, I got 0:07:12.036 --> 0:07:14.836 to optimize that because it's too expensive. 0:07:15.076 --> 0:07:18.276 So now you have factories in countries around the world. 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:22.036 You were to some degree at least operating at scale. 0:07:22.196 --> 0:07:24.476 I'm curious, what are a few things you had to 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:25.316 learn to get here? 0:07:27.276 --> 0:07:29.956 Well, I think a specific one is finding the right partners. 0:07:30.596 --> 0:07:33.596 We ended up going to China because we were looking 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:35.796 for a steel mill that we could work with, and 0:07:35.836 --> 0:07:38.196 fifty percent of the world steel was made in China. 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:41.636 They were also in growth mode. They wanted to reduce 0:07:41.676 --> 0:07:45.316 their carbon intensity, but they wanted to use it as 0:07:45.316 --> 0:07:49.156 a license to grow. And so China was in the 0:07:49.236 --> 0:07:52.236 right mode to think about new technologies, and so we 0:07:52.236 --> 0:07:54.956 were able to go there find a partner who was 0:07:54.996 --> 0:07:59.276 interested in using our technology and then demonstrating it. We 0:07:59.356 --> 0:08:03.476 built one hundred thousand gallon a year facility, and then 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:07.156 we use that as a path to building basically a 0:08:07.276 --> 0:08:10.716 fifteen million gallon a year of facilacility, and that's what 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:17.276 we have operating now. We have six facilities, average size 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:19.596 thirty to fifty million gallons a year. 0:08:20.276 --> 0:08:24.356 Meaning each one produces thirty to fifty million gallons of ethanol. 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:28.316 So tell me about a couple of the things you 0:08:28.436 --> 0:08:32.236 learned going from you know, the lab to tens of 0:08:32.276 --> 0:08:34.236 millions of gallons a year, Like, what were a couple 0:08:34.276 --> 0:08:36.516 of things that didn't work the first time that you 0:08:36.516 --> 0:08:38.316 had to figure out sort of specifically. 0:08:39.876 --> 0:08:42.516 You know, the bacteria's robust, like I told you, but 0:08:42.596 --> 0:08:46.596 it also needs to be coddled a little bit sometimes, 0:08:46.716 --> 0:08:50.316 and so you need to install some type of pre treatment, 0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:54.436 and so learning how to pre treat cheaply it was 0:08:54.636 --> 0:08:57.876 very important. Learning when we went from doing a steel 0:08:57.916 --> 0:09:00.876 milk gas to a fair alloy gas to a gas 0:09:01.396 --> 0:09:05.996 that's made from municipal solid waste right from trash. You 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:08.756 you kind of handle the gas a little bit differently. 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:12.916 And so we had focused on our process and we 0:09:12.996 --> 0:09:15.796 had spent some time on the gas, but we really learned, 0:09:15.796 --> 0:09:18.436 you know what, spend a little more time on the gas. 0:09:18.516 --> 0:09:21.756 So that's one thing we learn. The second thing I 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:26.516 think we learned, and something that's obvious right, Building good 0:09:26.556 --> 0:09:30.556 relationships matters, right. Nothing works the first time, and having 0:09:30.636 --> 0:09:32.956 partners that are willing to be on the journey to 0:09:33.676 --> 0:09:37.436 improve and optimize as you scale is important. Right. These 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:40.076 units are not like a Christmas gift. You open the 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:44.756 box and voila, we're running a capacity. And so really 0:09:44.956 --> 0:09:48.876 it's about your partners and about their commitment to you, 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:51.356 to the technology and to getting to scale. 0:09:54.116 --> 0:09:56.036 Let's talk about just what it looks like. So you 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:59.316 said you have how many how many operating six are 0:09:59.356 --> 0:10:02.676 their China and India and Europe. 0:10:02.836 --> 0:10:04.916 We have one in Europe as well in Ghent in 0:10:04.956 --> 0:10:06.516 Belgium with our solar middle. 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:12.676 So in a somewhat abstracted way, just like basically, what 0:10:12.436 --> 0:10:14.356 does one of your facilities look like? 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:14.436 Like? 0:10:14.476 --> 0:10:17.316 Maybe we should start at the at the smoke stack, right, 0:10:17.356 --> 0:10:21.716 So there is what used to be pollution coming out 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:23.196 a smoke stack or what happens. 0:10:23.596 --> 0:10:26.316 You don't let it go out, You intercept it before 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:29.076 it goes out, You compress it and you put it 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:30.116 into a reactor. 0:10:30.436 --> 0:10:33.996 So there's a gas and you particularly you want carbon monoxide. 0:10:33.996 --> 0:10:35.596 Still is that your. 0:10:35.436 --> 0:10:38.556 Put you want carbon monoxide? You can also use carbon 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:42.396 dioxide if you have hydrogen. It depends on whether you 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:45.396 have hydrogen or not how well you can process carbon dioxide. 0:10:45.436 --> 0:10:48.636 So let's just focus on carbon monoxide. That's like sugar 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:51.596 for our bacteria. It's like yum, I'll take that. 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:53.356 So then is the first thing you have to do? 0:10:54.276 --> 0:10:57.956 Separate out the carbon monoxide from the rest of the gas. 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:01.076 You don't, Okay, So if you have a carbon monoxide, 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:04.156 say forty percent carbon monoxide stream in a bunch of 0:11:04.236 --> 0:11:07.716 other gases, you can just pump that into your bioreactor 0:11:07.756 --> 0:11:10.636 and the bacteria will find it carbon monoxide and you'll 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:12.916 just ignore all the other molecules floating around. 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:15.316 Okay, So you pump that into the bioreactor. What's it 0:11:15.436 --> 0:11:17.916 what's it look like inside the biorector? What's going on 0:11:17.956 --> 0:11:18.236 in there? 0:11:18.396 --> 0:11:21.996 Yeah, so imagine a bunch of bubbles and imagine you've 0:11:21.996 --> 0:11:25.356 got bacteria that are dividing. Right, they're alive, they're dividing. 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:29.676 So it's kind of not a clear liquid. You're you're 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:32.876 seeing what look like little grape particles in there, but 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:37.916 it's just bacteria floating about. Gas bubbles come in. That's 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:41.156 all you see. And then on the back end you 0:11:41.236 --> 0:11:42.516 see ethanol. 0:11:42.556 --> 0:11:45.236 And in the bubbles in the tank. Is that like 0:11:45.636 --> 0:11:49.156 a medium you have created that your bacteria likes to 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:49.516 live in. 0:11:49.596 --> 0:11:52.636 That's that's right, that's right. They're getting their vitamins, they're 0:11:52.676 --> 0:11:56.596 getting their minerals, they're getting their carbon source, that carbon monoxide, 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:59.796 and they're floating about enjoying their day. 0:12:00.116 --> 0:12:02.516 And you're bubbling in the carbon monoxide the way like 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:04.636 if there's a fish tank, you just bubble in the. 0:12:04.556 --> 0:12:10.836 Air exactly now. It it's continued. The process is constantly 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:14.396 and the water is constantly moving around, and so it's 0:12:14.436 --> 0:12:17.596 not quite like a fish tank. But it's a great 0:12:17.636 --> 0:12:21.876 analogy and that works really well. And the key you 0:12:21.996 --> 0:12:24.276 said the bubbles like a fish tank. The key is 0:12:24.276 --> 0:12:27.756 to make those bubbles as small as possible. So it's 0:12:27.836 --> 0:12:31.316 kind of faking out a dissolution, right, It's like they're 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:35.356 dissolved the amount of dissolved carbon monoxide getting to the 0:12:35.396 --> 0:12:38.476 bacteria so that they can find it, eat it and 0:12:38.876 --> 0:12:40.356 poop out ethanol. 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:42.956 And how does the ethanol sort of come out of 0:12:42.996 --> 0:12:43.716 the tank. 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.716 The ethanol is with water, and so we have to 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:52.156 distill the ethanol out and then we take the water 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:55.196 which also has media and other things and pump it 0:12:55.236 --> 0:12:58.156 back into the reactors so that we're not wasting anything. 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:01.676 We're you know, we're separating the bacteria, putting it back 0:13:01.716 --> 0:13:05.356 in the reactor, separating the ethanol through distillation, and then 0:13:05.396 --> 0:13:07.276 you just take the ethanol and clean it as much 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:11.596 as you want. For fuel grade to blend with gasoline 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:16.676 doesn't need to be that clean. For putting it into cosmetics, 0:13:16.756 --> 0:13:18.076 it needs to be really clean. 0:13:19.756 --> 0:13:24.796 And who are you selling your ethanol to, So. 0:13:24.836 --> 0:13:27.716 Most of the ethanol goes into blending with gasoline. That's 0:13:27.756 --> 0:13:32.636 what our partner in China is doing. But what we 0:13:32.676 --> 0:13:34.476 do is we take a small amount of it right 0:13:34.516 --> 0:13:37.596 now and we've used it to do project development or 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:41.756 brand development. So Cody, for example, uses our ethanol in 0:13:41.836 --> 0:13:45.476 some of their perfumes. We've also converted it to polyester, 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:50.076 and On has made running apparel with the polyester made 0:13:50.076 --> 0:13:54.676 from these recycled emissions. Mebel has used it in cleaning products. 0:13:54.716 --> 0:13:58.876 So we have quite a few partners that you would recognize, 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:02.516 H and M. Craghoppers, they've all used our polyester. And 0:14:02.956 --> 0:14:06.116 it's kind of neat, right because if you stop and 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:08.876 for a second think about this, you say, you know 0:14:09.116 --> 0:14:11.276 this was going to be pollution, it was going to 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:15.636 be greenhouse gases and particulates and instead I'm wearing it. 0:14:16.436 --> 0:14:18.316 Yes, and how's the price. 0:14:19.396 --> 0:14:26.116 So it's more expensive than conventional polyesters. It's you would say, 0:14:26.156 --> 0:14:29.676 it's anywhere between one hundred and fifty twoe hundred and 0:14:29.716 --> 0:14:34.596 seventy percent. Fortunately, we have partners who are willing to 0:14:34.676 --> 0:14:37.716 pay more in the raw materials because the raw material 0:14:37.836 --> 0:14:41.636 is not what impacts the price of the product. 0:14:41.796 --> 0:14:44.836 Right, they can pay They can pay significantly more for 0:14:44.916 --> 0:14:48.356 the polyester, and it's such a trivial percentage of the 0:14:48.876 --> 0:14:50.876 final cost of the good that it doesn't move the 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:51.476 needle much. 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:54.556 Well, you know, I would have thought exactly the way 0:14:54.596 --> 0:14:57.956 you just said it. But unfortunately what it does is 0:14:57.996 --> 0:15:00.876 it impacts their margins. And in a world that's obsessed 0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:04.596 with profit and margins, you have to give credit to 0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:07.676 our partners for being able to say I am going 0:15:07.716 --> 0:15:12.596 to make an investment in creating this right because their 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:17.156 business leaders are not getting the margins that others are getting. 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:22.276 And so I think this is something I want to 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:25.956 really hash out because I think we're driven to reduce 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:29.116 our costs and to increase our profit and we've got 0:15:29.116 --> 0:15:31.596 these brave souls who are saying, well, I got to 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:34.476 reduce carbon too, and that's important to us and to 0:15:34.556 --> 0:15:37.476 our future. And I'm going to go against the trend, 0:15:37.516 --> 0:15:40.316 and I'm not going to reduce my costs or increase 0:15:40.356 --> 0:15:42.756 my profit. I am going to do something good. So 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:47.036 ARII Craghoppers has a whole line of clothing with our stuff, 0:15:47.116 --> 0:15:52.116 and they're trying to help us get to a scale 0:15:52.156 --> 0:15:55.476 where we can reduce the costs so that maybe someday 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:57.556 they'll get to the margins they need. 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:01.836 Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I feel like it's 0:16:01.836 --> 0:16:04.396 great that these companies want to do this. But to 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:08.316 be meaningful at a global level, you need to get 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:11.316 to a place where the ethanol you sell is the 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:17.116 same price as other ethanol, right, And I'm curious what 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:19.876 has to happen for you to get there? Well, first 0:16:19.876 --> 0:16:21.476 of all, is that right? Do you think of it 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:22.956 the same way? Are you trying to get to a 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:27.196 place where your ethanol has cost the same as corn 0:16:27.196 --> 0:16:28.516 ethanol or any other ethanol? 0:16:29.236 --> 0:16:32.476 Right now, it's actually pretty close to corn ethanol. It's 0:16:32.556 --> 0:16:34.676 just that it costs a lot more than ethylene, which 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:35.996 is how polyesters made. 0:16:36.236 --> 0:16:39.556 I see, So for fuel. Is the ethanol you make 0:16:39.636 --> 0:16:40.436 price competitive? 0:16:40.676 --> 0:16:44.356 It is pretty equivalent. Yeah. Yeah, the capital installed cost 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:47.996 is much higher because they've optimized their capital for years 0:16:47.996 --> 0:16:51.716 and well hundreds of years, whereas we have not. But 0:16:52.516 --> 0:16:55.156 once you get past the capital recovery piece, the costs 0:16:55.156 --> 0:16:55.996 are about the same. 0:16:56.556 --> 0:16:59.596 So you're saying you're like competing against sort of depreciated assets. 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:01.676 They built factories a long time ago. They don't sort 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:04.716 of have to pay for the factories every month the 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:07.556 way you do that kind of thing, that kind of challenge. 0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:12.076 That's right, that's right, But we'll get there. But you 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:16.916 ask the more important question, and I guess we're focused 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:18.796 on keeping carbon in the ground. At the end of 0:17:18.796 --> 0:17:21.156 the day, this lineary economy is not going to work, 0:17:21.276 --> 0:17:24.556 and we need to find a way to reuse all 0:17:24.676 --> 0:17:27.876 carbon that's already in circulation in our system, whether it's 0:17:27.956 --> 0:17:30.836 municipal solid waste, whether it's industrial waste, whether it's CO 0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:33.676 two that's in the atmosphere. We've got to figure out 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:36.836 how to use that as the resource from which everything 0:17:36.916 --> 0:17:41.236 is made. So it's great, we need to reduce consumption, 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:43.076 don't get me wrong, but we have a whole lot 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:46.436 of global economies that are growing, and so how do 0:17:46.516 --> 0:17:51.716 we deliver to them what they need without pulling more 0:17:51.716 --> 0:17:54.356 carbon out of the ground. And that is what we 0:17:54.396 --> 0:17:57.836 focus on. So the question is are you cost competitive? Well, 0:17:57.836 --> 0:17:59.356 there's a lot of things that we can do that 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:03.116 make us cost competitive when we get the bigger scales 0:18:03.116 --> 0:18:05.436 and we deploy more units. You know, this is the 0:18:05.476 --> 0:18:07.556 beginning of the journey, right the early days of the 0:18:07.596 --> 0:18:10.316 cell phone versus now. And so what you've got to 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:13.916 do is just build more and reduce costs, improve the technology, 0:18:13.996 --> 0:18:17.276 reduce costs. But the other thing that biology allows you 0:18:17.316 --> 0:18:20.636 to do is it allows you to skip steps that 0:18:20.676 --> 0:18:25.036 you would naturally use in the petrochemical world. So today 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:28.796 to make polyester, I go from ethanol to ethylene to 0:18:29.076 --> 0:18:34.476 ethylene oxide to meg to polyester. Now what if I 0:18:34.516 --> 0:18:38.116 could go from the gas not to ethanol, but to meg. 0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:42.636 Now I've put that whole supply chain inside my bacteria. 0:18:43.756 --> 0:18:47.836 Now I can be competitive because I'm processing less and 0:18:47.916 --> 0:18:52.036 I'm doing it at room close to room temperature, not 0:18:52.276 --> 0:18:55.556 like a thermo catalytic process. So there is a day 0:18:55.596 --> 0:18:58.836 when I believe we'll be competitive, but I think we're 0:18:58.836 --> 0:19:01.396 always going to have to ask ourselves the question what 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:04.156 are the externalities that go along with the costs of 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:07.596 the things we buy? And I know that's a delusional question. 0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:10.316 Everybody's like, well, we'll just take not all of those 0:19:10.356 --> 0:19:13.156 and get a lot of keep stuff made from fossil carbon. 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:16.836 But are we going to carbon tax? Do I have 0:19:16.916 --> 0:19:19.356 to be competitive with fossil. 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:22.756 Well, like a carbon tax would solve the externality problem, right. 0:19:22.796 --> 0:19:26.636 The problem is when people use fossil fuel, they pollute, 0:19:26.636 --> 0:19:28.236 and they impose a cost on the world, and that 0:19:28.276 --> 0:19:30.276 cost is not reflected in the price of the good, 0:19:30.356 --> 0:19:33.036 and that is a market failure and you are competing 0:19:33.076 --> 0:19:35.956 against that market failure. And I agree that a carbon 0:19:35.996 --> 0:19:40.356 tax is a good idea, it's hasn't taken off politically 0:19:40.956 --> 0:19:44.796 in a broad way. So that's a challenge, right, And 0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:47.676 like people being willing to pay a green premium, seems 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:51.756 limited by human nature at some margin. 0:19:53.156 --> 0:19:55.396 And that's why I want you to applaud the people 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:57.276 that are trying fair enough. 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:02.796 In a minute, how Lonza Tech is working on developing 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:20.476 sustainable jet fuel. Airplane emissions are a really hard problem 0:20:20.516 --> 0:20:23.196 to solve. The physics of flight make it hard to 0:20:23.236 --> 0:20:27.236 create an economically sound electric plane, although people are working 0:20:27.236 --> 0:20:30.716 on that. People are working on hydrogen powered planes, but 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:33.156 that's also really hard. It's clearly going to take a 0:20:33.196 --> 0:20:37.356 long time. So in the short to medium term progress 0:20:37.516 --> 0:20:40.316 is more likely to come from what are known as 0:20:40.676 --> 0:20:45.956 drop in sustainable aviation fuels, as in you can just 0:20:46.316 --> 0:20:49.716 drop them into the currently used fuels without having to 0:20:49.796 --> 0:20:53.516 redesign the whole plane. And Jennifer Holmgren has been working 0:20:53.556 --> 0:20:56.796 on drop in sustainable fuels since before she came to 0:20:56.916 --> 0:20:57.516 Lunza Tech. 0:20:58.796 --> 0:21:02.236 I've been working on sustainable aviation fuel from before there 0:21:02.356 --> 0:21:05.116 was such a thing as a drop in sustainable aviation fuel. 0:21:05.196 --> 0:21:08.876 So I worked on the first drop in fuels in 0:21:08.916 --> 0:21:11.396 my old job. We did flight demos, flight of the 0:21:11.436 --> 0:21:13.636 Green Hornet, all of that. We showed that you could 0:21:13.716 --> 0:21:21.076 make a hydrocarbon right and biofuels until then were oxygenates, ethanol, biodiesel, 0:21:21.236 --> 0:21:23.756 So we showed we could make a hydrocarbon that looked 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:27.276 exactly like jet fuel, and that was certified. Those are 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:31.276 the first drops that were certified for sustainable aviation fuel. 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:35.476 All of the fuel that's made today that goes into 0:21:35.516 --> 0:21:39.796 an airplane that is not made from fossil carbon is 0:21:39.836 --> 0:21:44.036 made with that type of a process that takes fats, oils, 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:49.316 greases and makes them to sustainable aviation fuel. The problem 0:21:49.356 --> 0:21:52.076 with that is how much we go back to the 0:21:52.076 --> 0:21:55.396 same problem we started with. How much of these biological 0:21:55.436 --> 0:22:00.036 feedstocks are there? The world uses one hundred billion gallons 0:22:00.076 --> 0:22:04.596 of aviation fuel today. You can't do it just food. 0:22:05.196 --> 0:22:08.956 And so when I came to lands Attack, I wanted 0:22:08.996 --> 0:22:12.116 to develop a route to aviation fuel from all of 0:22:12.156 --> 0:22:14.436 this ethanol that you could make from all of these 0:22:14.436 --> 0:22:18.396 waste resources. And that's why we were Pacific Northwest National 0:22:18.476 --> 0:22:21.476 Lab to develop a route to take ethanol. Any kind 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:23.316 of ethanol doesn't have to be ours. Lots of other 0:22:23.356 --> 0:22:27.796 people know how to make ethanol to make sustainable aviation fuel. 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:31.316 When we got that certified for flight, we did the 0:22:31.356 --> 0:22:34.916 ASDM work. We flew a flight with Virgin Atlantic from 0:22:34.996 --> 0:22:37.756 Orlando to Gatwick commercial flight by the way, that was 0:22:37.836 --> 0:22:42.596 kind of cool, two hundred plus people on board, made 0:22:42.636 --> 0:22:47.516 from recycled steel mill emissions. We realized that what we 0:22:47.596 --> 0:22:50.196 needed to do was build a ten million gallon a 0:22:50.236 --> 0:22:55.236 year facility, a large commercial scale, mini commercial scale facility, 0:22:55.676 --> 0:22:59.476 and so what we decided to do is to launch 0:22:59.556 --> 0:23:03.836 land SUGGETI zone entity and raise cash into it so 0:23:03.876 --> 0:23:06.956 that we could build that plant and go really really fast. 0:23:08.036 --> 0:23:12.596 And so that plant is in Georgia and it's in Soaprodue, Georgia, 0:23:12.676 --> 0:23:15.716 and it should be starting up momentarily. 0:23:15.796 --> 0:23:19.756 I would say more like tomorrow. What does momentarily mean. 0:23:19.876 --> 0:23:23.116 And think of it in it's in the last stages 0:23:23.156 --> 0:23:26.036 of shakedown, say within the next couple of months kind 0:23:26.036 --> 0:23:26.636 of differing. 0:23:27.556 --> 0:23:29.716