WEBVTT - Robert and Cody Read Ben Shapiro's New Book

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my goodness, it's behind the behind bastards podcasters Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Evans show that you're listening to. This was not a

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<v Speaker 2>good introduction.

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<v Speaker 3>Sophie Lichtman per show.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah we're doing.

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<v Speaker 2>You're making fun of me, Sophie, you're making fun of me,

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<v Speaker 2>laughing at me. Well, here to laugh at me more.

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<v Speaker 2>Cody Johnstone welcome, Yes, thank you so much, guest. Cody.

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<v Speaker 2>You are the host of news Comma Some More, a

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<v Speaker 2>podcast about news and also a YouTube show about news.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm great, are you? Ah?

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, everyone, no one's doing great. Come on, but

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<v Speaker 2>you gotta be pleasant, right. I was at a friend's

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<v Speaker 2>wedding the other week. He's like, how you doing? I

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<v Speaker 2>mean right now?

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<v Speaker 3>Fine in general?

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<v Speaker 4>Bad open bar uh huh good yeah outside maybe I

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<v Speaker 4>don't know. Yeah, I'm fine. We're all doing our best.

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<v Speaker 4>Things are weird and happening, and they're happening quickly and suddenly.

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<v Speaker 3>In many ways they are.

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<v Speaker 2>They're happening here. You could say the things that are

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<v Speaker 2>happening I could do. And one of the people who's

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<v Speaker 2>happening here is a friend of VARs you and me, Cody,

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<v Speaker 2>a friend of the Pods, a friend of our mutual

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<v Speaker 2>friend who we all miss right now. Katie stole by Katie.

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<v Speaker 2>Ben Shapiro, our buddy, our good comrade and.

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<v Speaker 3>Co my band mate.

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<v Speaker 2>He's my band Yeah yeah, you and Benefit rocking out,

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<v Speaker 2>Katie and you and I and also Sophie did a

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<v Speaker 2>long series of podcast episodes. We went through the entirety

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<v Speaker 2>of Ben Shapiro's unbelievably shoddy fiction novel. I mean, just

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<v Speaker 2>some of the absolute worst pros I think either of

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<v Speaker 2>us has ever encountered.

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<v Speaker 3>Real bad.

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<v Speaker 2>It was bad enough that Ben is not written another

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<v Speaker 2>fiction novel since the rest of my knowledge.

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<v Speaker 4>Here's the thing. I'm really upset. He announced he's had

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<v Speaker 4>this new book out. But I remember, like a year

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<v Speaker 4>or two ago, a few years ago, he said he

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<v Speaker 4>was working on a science fiction book.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want to read that.

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<v Speaker 3>Fucker. I want that, But don't do that. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>need your like.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's like a year of free content for me, Ben,

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<v Speaker 2>get it out.

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<v Speaker 3>Give me the juice. Man.

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<v Speaker 2>I know I'm late on my novel, Ben, but come on,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have a real job.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah it off. Take time off.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. But we are doing a Ben Shapiro

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<v Speaker 2>book episode because on September second of this year, he

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<v Speaker 2>published his latest nonfiction novel, Lions and Scavengers, The True

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<v Speaker 2>Story of America and her Critics. That's in her critics

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<v Speaker 2>is yah parentheses at the very bottom and tiny deck.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a fascinating choice for him. It seems like, so,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, like the Abundance book, we don't need to

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<v Speaker 4>talk about abundance or whatever, but that book, hm hmmm,

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<v Speaker 4>Firestorm on the Internet seem to be sort of written

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<v Speaker 4>in a way that was intending for like, well, and

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<v Speaker 4>then Kamala Harris will be the president and then this

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<v Speaker 4>book will come out. That didn't happen, and so it's

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<v Speaker 4>a the reaction was different. It's a whole other conversation

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<v Speaker 4>sort of happening.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like sitting down with a friend to like tell

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<v Speaker 2>them that you're worried about like dental health while they're

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<v Speaker 2>actively bleeding out from arterial wound and you're like, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I just really think you need to floss more, and oh, sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>you spurred it a little bit of that arterial blood

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<v Speaker 2>right on my neck here.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, maybe rip the pages out of that book

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<v Speaker 4>and use them to like stop depleting or something. And

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<v Speaker 4>this book seems very like twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen coded.

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<v Speaker 4>It's like, what are you doing like doing this history

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<v Speaker 4>stuff again? Like what did the Trump administration do the

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<v Speaker 4>first time with their like projects about like what the

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<v Speaker 4>real history is, like how slavery didn't happen or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is a weird book.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess to come out now in my opinion, but

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<v Speaker 4>I haven't read it, so maybe it's actually perfect for

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<v Speaker 4>this moment.

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<v Speaker 3>You know what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you right now. We'll talk about this more.

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<v Speaker 2>Ben Shapiro desperately wishes.

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<v Speaker 3>He were C. S.

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<v Speaker 2>Lewis, And you know, C. S Lewis talked about politics,

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<v Speaker 2>but in like a broader kind of philosophical sense, and

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<v Speaker 2>he was like a good writer, you know, and Ben

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<v Speaker 2>is not. And Ben is also obsessed with like petty

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<v Speaker 2>culture war grievances and shit.

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<v Speaker 3>Ben Shapiro, Yeah, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>This is him trying to like really establish himself as

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<v Speaker 2>a C. S. Lewis type thinker. And it's not good.

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<v Speaker 2>That's by short. But but we'll go through it because

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<v Speaker 2>I have actually quite a lot to say about. Most

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<v Speaker 2>of the introduction to this book is part one, So Cody,

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<v Speaker 2>you and I may be back repeatedly talking more about

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<v Speaker 2>this fair enough, so the five Yeah, yeah, yeah, well

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<v Speaker 2>we haven't We're not even getting through all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think you will also get the gist of

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<v Speaker 2>his argument from this, because Ben being Ben, most of

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<v Speaker 2>this book is him just kind of repeating himself, right, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>It opens with an inscription. This is like the dedication

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<v Speaker 2>to the book to the lions. The l is capitalized,

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<v Speaker 2>the hunter's warriors and weavers, each of those words is capitalized.

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<v Speaker 2>Who build, defend, and maintain the greatest civilization and the

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<v Speaker 2>history of mankind. Against the scavengers. The s is capitalized.

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<v Speaker 2>Who would destroy that civilization from within?

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<v Speaker 3>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>And that's essentially the thesis of the book, right, is

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<v Speaker 2>that you've got lions and scavengers. That's all of society.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's his whole thing.

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<v Speaker 4>I can't wait to find out what he thinks is

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<v Speaker 4>a lion, what he thinks is a scavenger.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's funny here is, first off, I know this

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<v Speaker 2>is petty, but I can't get over it, is that

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<v Speaker 2>we're just this whole book, the basic premise of this

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<v Speaker 2>and he's trying to be kind of artistic by framing

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<v Speaker 2>it as lions and scavengers, you know, like he's trying

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<v Speaker 2>to be kind of philosophical, but his entire underpinning of

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<v Speaker 2>that attempt is based on a wild factual inaccuracy about lions.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Like out the gate, None of this is

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<v Speaker 2>right because lions and scavengers aren't separate things. And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to quote very quickly from an article on Krueger Park,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a wildlife national park in South Africa. Another

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<v Speaker 2>lion fact not commonly appreciated is that lions are not

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<v Speaker 2>just hunters but scavengers as well, often chasing smaller predators

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<v Speaker 2>like cheetah off their kills. In some instances, up to

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<v Speaker 2>fifty percent of a lion's diet can come from scavenging

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<v Speaker 2>rather than hunting life prey. Lions are scavengers as much

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<v Speaker 2>as they are hunters, sometimes.

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<v Speaker 4>More, sometimes more. I mean, you imagine he gets most

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<v Speaker 4>of his information from the lion King, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yes, this is all of his knowledge about lions

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<v Speaker 2>is from what he remembers of the lion King and

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that lions look impressive.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But there is something deeply meaningful about the whole root

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<v Speaker 2>of his ideological argument here is that you've got lions,

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<v Speaker 2>which are conservatives, right, which are the people who build

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<v Speaker 2>culture and the people who like make everything good, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're creators, you know, they do the hard work

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<v Speaker 2>of forging civilization. And then there's scavengers who just want

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<v Speaker 2>to tear everything down and they're just mooching and stealing

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<v Speaker 2>and attacking from within this thing that they didn't make.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course the reality is that like, well, lions

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<v Speaker 2>not only do they scavenge, but most of their scavenging

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<v Speaker 2>is them stealing kills from animals that did the actual hunting,

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<v Speaker 2>like hyenas and cheetahs, right like, and then taking credit

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<v Speaker 2>for it. Yeah. Interesting, Interesting, He's just a writer. He's

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<v Speaker 2>a bad writer. He's a bad thinker.

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<v Speaker 4>Also, right, he couldn't stretch his like analogy past the

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<v Speaker 4>and no, because if you're gonna say lions, that's a

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<v Speaker 4>specific animal, and then you're zooming out to say scavengers,

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<v Speaker 4>say vultures, Like pick a scavenger to like lay like

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<v Speaker 4>lions and vultures whatever. But like it's just you're you're

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<v Speaker 4>being specific with the first one and then vague like

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<v Speaker 4>you're using a category for the second.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is sloppy, it's also evidence of like this

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<v Speaker 2>thing that you see a lot with Ben and with

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<v Speaker 2>other conservatives, where it's like, well, you've never done anything

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<v Speaker 2>in the world, right, Like you don't know anything about

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<v Speaker 2>survival in the wilderness. If you did, you'd know that, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>hunting is a bad way to survive. Very few animals

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<v Speaker 2>live just by hunting because it's hard and it burns

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of calories. Like a person who taught me

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<v Speaker 2>how to hunt is a great outdoors person, right, extremely skilled,

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<v Speaker 2>and they will admit like, if they had to survive

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<v Speaker 2>on their own, ninety percent of their calories would be

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<v Speaker 2>foraging and trapping because hunting is wildly inefficient. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you can take a killed that someone else made or

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<v Speaker 2>find something dead, that just works a lot better. It's

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<v Speaker 2>what almost every animal prefers to.

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<v Speaker 3>Do, right, survive.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it just keeps you alive better. Anyway. The introduction

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<v Speaker 2>chapter opens and it's just titled London, England. And this

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<v Speaker 2>is how it starts. A tension lies at the core

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<v Speaker 2>of our being. It royals us. It turns our guts,

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<v Speaker 2>it boils our brains. The tension lies between two opposing fours.

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<v Speaker 2>Those forces beat within every man's breast. They fight for

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<v Speaker 2>supremacy within every civilization. One must triumph and one must fall.

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<v Speaker 2>The spirit of the lion, the spirit of the scavenger. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>lions are scavengers.

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<v Speaker 4>Lines are scavengers. The scavengers. There are specific animals you

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<v Speaker 4>can choose.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually very efficient, it's smart.

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<v Speaker 3>Like also brain's boiling.

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<v Speaker 2>I say that as a hunter and a scavenger, I

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<v Speaker 2>pick up roadkill and I hunt. I also raise and

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<v Speaker 2>slaughter animals. All of these things are ways to get calories.

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<v Speaker 2>Beyond that, beyond him getting lion facts.

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<v Speaker 3>Beyond like the premise of the analogy wants to.

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<v Speaker 2>Use right, the fundamental premise of this is just based

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<v Speaker 2>on a complete misunderstanding of wildlife. Beyond that, his attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to apply a moral line to something fundamentally immoral, which

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<v Speaker 2>is how different creatures take in their calories, shows a

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<v Speaker 2>very conservative ignorance towards basic biological reality, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>they're supposed to stand up for. You know, scavenging for

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<v Speaker 2>food is not in anywhere worse than hunting for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Every great predator, like the Trannosaurus Rex, paleontologists generally agree,

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<v Speaker 2>were scavengers at least an equal measure to hunters right,

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<v Speaker 2>because it's just not a great way to survive just hunting.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah we can, yeah, exactly, you get what you can't.

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<v Speaker 3>Unless you're like a society.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, right, and then you could just go to a

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<v Speaker 2>grocery store.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like Ben does pay someone to do your shopping

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<v Speaker 2>for you. You know, because you soft little hands, You're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to go skin an animal. You're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to do that, Ben Shapiro.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, we don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the cowboy hat chafes your head when you

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<v Speaker 2>try to wear it outside.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, got a bunch of splinters when he held up

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<v Speaker 4>that two by four outside.

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<v Speaker 2>That two by four. You know, he's still tired from that.

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<v Speaker 2>He's still getting the splinters out of his hands from that.

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<v Speaker 2>One day he went to home depot to buy a

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<v Speaker 2>single piece of wood.

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<v Speaker 3>You gotta go scavenger for more calories to get back

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<v Speaker 3>to zero. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, After this, we get a dramatic opening about how

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<v Speaker 2>Ben is writing this introduction in London, which quote has

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<v Speaker 2>been conquered by the scavengers. Who is he defining as scavengers?

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<v Speaker 4>You ask code? Theoretically, I don't ask that because I

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<v Speaker 4>know the answer to that. But you can go ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was pro Palestine, anti genocide protesters who were

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<v Speaker 2>marching through the city. Ben Wright's quote, hundreds of thousand

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<v Speaker 2>strong marching. They're banners unfurled, the banners of terrorist groups

0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.199
<v Speaker 2>and communists and of transgender activists gathered together to revolt

0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.400
<v Speaker 2>against the civilization that has given them their rights and

0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:26.160
<v Speaker 2>their prosperity and their power. And you know, he's writing

0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.480
<v Speaker 2>about protest against the Israeli government's actions in Gaza, which

0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.600
<v Speaker 2>he defines as protests supporting Hamas and the October seventh attacks.

0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.080
<v Speaker 2>And obviously you can find people who had Hamas flags.

0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.440
<v Speaker 2>There were people cheering on the October seventh attacks. That's

0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>a thing that happened, But that's not the primary reason

0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.760
<v Speaker 2>there were protests. The primary reason they are a protest.

0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.880
<v Speaker 2>And what most people is the genocide is.

0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.880
<v Speaker 3>All the death, what the UN just admitted it was.

0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.840
<v Speaker 3>It's what the un just like.

0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.240
<v Speaker 4>It's just that is so kind of course he's doing that,

0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 4>but also like actually been they're not trying to like

0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.360
<v Speaker 4>rail against or like destroy the society that like built everything.

0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 3>If they're trying to participate in that society.

0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.880
<v Speaker 2>They're participating in it by speaking and by trying to

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.080
<v Speaker 2>speak to power and make their voices heard. Also, the

0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.920
<v Speaker 2>civilization didn't give them their rights. They had to take

0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:18.800
<v Speaker 2>their rights, or their predecessors did via protest and violence. Sometimes,

0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:23.079
<v Speaker 2>because societies don't just give people rights because they're nice,

0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:24.920
<v Speaker 2>those rights are fought for.

0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.560
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, like a lion, unlike these people who are

0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 3>fighting for it like scavengers right now.

0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Obviously, in standard Shapiro fashion, he ignores the critiques these

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 2>marchers have of the mass slaughter of civilians by a

0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.880
<v Speaker 2>modern first World military in favor of raging at people

0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.320
<v Speaker 2>who march around with flags and post on social media.

0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 2>He cites one commentator from Twitter who wrote after October seventh,

0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.720
<v Speaker 2>what did y'all think decolonization meant? In response to those

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 2>attacks by hamas quote. Her comment received nearly one hundred

0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 2>thousand likes. Wow, and it spoke to the very core

0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.239
<v Speaker 2>of the scavengers. All in humanity against the lions is justified.

0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.560
<v Speaker 2>And this is just classic conservatism, not just been Shapiro

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.040
<v Speaker 2>of Like this person made a dumb post that's obviously

0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>the same as tens of thousands of people getting murdered

0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.079
<v Speaker 2>from air strikes and starve to death. These are equivalent

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.800
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand likes to a bad post, equal to

0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>the murder of thousands of equal to fucking babies being incinerated,

0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:22.280
<v Speaker 2>all equivalent.

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I think of the likes.

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.040
<v Speaker 4>I'm I'm actually I need to hold the moment of

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 4>silence for the likes, real quick, for the likes.

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really, that's thank you, Cody. We sometimes forget the

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:34.040
<v Speaker 2>real victims here.

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:35.199
<v Speaker 3>I think we do. I think we do.

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.920
<v Speaker 4>I also I am dreading how many fucking times he's

0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.319
<v Speaker 4>going to use the words lions and scavengers.

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>It's so much, it's such bad right already, I'm just like, God,

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.960
<v Speaker 2>stop saying this. C. S. Lewis would fucking like pile

0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 2>drive him in frustration at how badly this is written.

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 3>At least name the lion like.

0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not particularly a C. S. Lewis stand but

0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.520
<v Speaker 2>the man knew how to put together a sentence right like,

0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.920
<v Speaker 2>and he understood how to like not make my head

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.680
<v Speaker 2>hurt while reading a book repeatedly because.

0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 4>Or in Ben's words, you're boiling brain. Yeah, exactly, thank

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.680
<v Speaker 4>you boiling your brain in London. But we do see

0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.240
<v Speaker 4>here kind of the ultimate reason for the framing of

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 4>this book is Rayleigh's are a lions, Palestinians, and people

0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 4>angry at their murder are scavengers. There's a particular irony

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 4>in his horror at this scavenger gathering and quote the

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 4>beating heart of what was once the center of Western civilization,

0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 4>because London was only the center of Western civilization due

0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.000
<v Speaker 4>to a vast centuries long program of what can only

0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 4>be described as scavenging theft on a grand scale against

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 4>an impossibly vast chunk of the globe. They stole from

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.920
<v Speaker 4>the rest of the world. That's what emperialism is. They

0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.040
<v Speaker 4>stole from India, they stole everywhere they could.

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.560
<v Speaker 2>They built it to themselves shut aside. They start thirty

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.120
<v Speaker 2>million people in Bengal. They wiped out entire ethnic groups,

0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, to get spices.

0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.600
<v Speaker 3>Like it's it, Okay, you're making a really hard for

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 3>me to say, this is building. Yeah, but I'm gonna try.

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yes, the Obritzar massacre clear example of building they're built.

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:09.720
<v Speaker 3>They build.

0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.040
<v Speaker 4>Okay, impossible, now you're yeah, it made a good point.

0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 4>I mean it's all like this whole framing just goes

0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.640
<v Speaker 4>back to that fucking tweet from like right twenty five

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 4>or fifteen years ago. Israelis like to build Arabs, like

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 4>to bomb crap and live in open sewage precise. It's

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.160
<v Speaker 4>just that, which he apologized for, by the way, and

0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:29.320
<v Speaker 4>said it was stupid.

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:30.920
<v Speaker 3>He said it was a stupid tweet.

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about another thing that he apologized for in

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:34.640
<v Speaker 2>a little bit here, Cody.

0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 3>But yes, thank you for then you write a whole

0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:36.560
<v Speaker 3>book about it.

0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so bin Express's disbelief the existence of groups like

0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Queers for Palestine, which he says was formed quote and

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.320
<v Speaker 2>solidarity with people who would throw queers off buildings at

0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>the first available opportunity if given half a chance. Meanwhile,

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>his colleague Matt Walsh, in the immediate wake of Charlie

0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Kirk's assassination, posted this, this was left wing LGBT terrorism.

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 2>There was never in much doubt, is none at all.

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 2>All left wing terror networks must be crushed. All of

0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 2>the terrorists and their helpers and funders must be arrested,

0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.320
<v Speaker 2>prosecuted and put to death. Yeah, these Palestinians want to

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 2>kill queer people, unlike Ben Shapiro and his allies at

0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the Daily Wire who want.

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.280
<v Speaker 3>Matt Hamas Walsh.

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Who LGBT terrorists to death, which I'm sure doesn't include

0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 2>everyone who's a YVT, just you know whoever Matt Walsh

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:25.400
<v Speaker 2>thinks is there very clear?

0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean, now it's associating with anybody right right and.

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 2>People who associate with them of course, and who fund them,

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe.

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 3>In ways that we still don't know, we still but

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:36.360
<v Speaker 3>but surely they do.

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not important to have that all ironed out right now.

0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.000
<v Speaker 4>There are other tweets fro Matt Walsh. Obviously that's horrific.

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:43.880
<v Speaker 4>What a horrible, fucking terrible person.

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:44.960
<v Speaker 2>He's a bad guy.

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 4>He specifically has also been basically calling for unity amongst

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.320
<v Speaker 4>all the factions on the right in order to carry

0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.920
<v Speaker 4>out what he's talking about, crushing the left and like right,

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.720
<v Speaker 4>rounding up people's all the stuff he's talking about in

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.000
<v Speaker 4>public executions I believe he's talking about as well.

0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, I mean Charlie Kirk had talked about

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>public executions too, like his belief that that's something we

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 2>need to bring in.

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.800
<v Speaker 4>Age twelve I think is the appropriate age for watching that.

0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.639
<v Speaker 4>According to them, So he's calling for uniting all the

0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 4>right wing factions in order to do this, so which

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.280
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I guess a good phrase instead would be

0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:22.240
<v Speaker 4>to unite the right. So sure, maybe he's actually calling

0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 4>to unite with people who actually would want to do

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.439
<v Speaker 4>the same thing. To Ben, like, if you're calling to

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.280
<v Speaker 4>unite the right in order to do this, then you're

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.440
<v Speaker 4>calling to unite very very far right, sorry to say,

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:40.400
<v Speaker 4>like neo Nazis who would want to kill the Jewish

0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 4>people who are in the coalition, much like Ben is

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.840
<v Speaker 4>saying that Hamas wants to do to gay people. Just

0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.680
<v Speaker 4>seems like I don't think they understand what they're saying

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.920
<v Speaker 4>or recognize these inconsistencies or consistencies to them, who knows.

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And they don't care, of course, none of that. It

0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, like to them, what matters is crushing their enemies, right,

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Like the fact that they aren't logically consistent is about power.

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.920
<v Speaker 2>It always has been, you know. And there's a lot

0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.240
<v Speaker 2>that's disingenuous about this framing, though, and it's worth getting

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.359
<v Speaker 2>into that. One thing is that as of May twenty

0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.239
<v Speaker 2>twenty five, per UNICEF Regional Director Edward Bigbetter, more than

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 2>fifty thousand children have been killed or injured by Israel

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.119
<v Speaker 2>in the Gaza strip. These kids had no power or

0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>frankly desire to throw anyone off of buildings.

0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.359
<v Speaker 3>Right, like, but they might one day.

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, you can find people who are delusional in

0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>any group. But I know a lot of queers who

0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.919
<v Speaker 2>are angry about what's being done in Palestine. They're not

0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>laboring under a misapprehension that Hamas is woke. They're angry

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.119
<v Speaker 2>that kids and women and children have nothing to do

0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.679
<v Speaker 2>with Hamas or any other arm group are being murdered.

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.119
<v Speaker 2>That's what they're angry about, because it's bad.

0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 4>It's like, yeah, it's very obvious that that's the situation.

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:51.640
<v Speaker 3>But again, they don't.

0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Care if there's a mass shooting at a church that

0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.800
<v Speaker 2>believes things I don't. Like, I'm not not going to

0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 2>be angry about the mass shooting because the pastor of

0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.320
<v Speaker 2>the church said something shitty and like that doesn't make

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.000
<v Speaker 2>it okay that kids got shot.

0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 4>Do you understand that, Like, yeah, those kids are massacred,

0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:10.720
<v Speaker 4>Like it's horrific.

0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.320
<v Speaker 2>The Queers for Palaestinan people aren't marching in the street

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:17.880
<v Speaker 2>because they aspire to make their civilization identical to how

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:22.320
<v Speaker 2>the Gaza strip is run. Their marching because they're angry

0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.240
<v Speaker 2>that civilians are being killed, right and they understand rightfully

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.320
<v Speaker 2>that the average person in the Gaza strip has absolutely

0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.359
<v Speaker 2>no control over what fucking Hamas does.

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.760
<v Speaker 4>You can call those things horrific crimes against humanity and

0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 4>not have to be like, but also, I don't want

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.439
<v Speaker 4>to do Hamas stuff here because they have.

0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Like It's like, are you bummed out when you read

0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:46.879
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.119
<v Speaker 2>I can be bummed out about that. I fucking talked

0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.040
<v Speaker 2>to a survivor of the Hiroshima bombing. She was like

0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.320
<v Speaker 2>seven when it happened. She's not responsible for the Empire,

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:59.199
<v Speaker 2>like me being bummed about US nuking Japan. Doesn't mean

0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretending the Empire of Japan was a good society.

0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.639
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like it's just bad to kill kids.

0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.199
<v Speaker 4>Their crime was being born in a certain place at

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.240
<v Speaker 4>a certain time, and that's actually not a crime exactly.

0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.959
<v Speaker 2>It certainly shouldn't be treated like one. Right again, are

0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.119
<v Speaker 2>there assholes in any mass movement who try to hijack

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 2>the momentum of a larger number of people to push

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 2>their own fucked up bullshit, including like uncritical worship of

0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>violence used by a group. Sure, and Ben Shapiro knows

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.960
<v Speaker 2>full well what it's like to uncritically endorse violence against civilians.

0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.240
<v Speaker 2>In two thousand and two, he wrote an article stating

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 2>that he wasn't the least bit concerned about civilian casualties

0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.159
<v Speaker 2>in Afghanistan or the West Bank, and the insinuation was

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.119
<v Speaker 2>that this extended generally to the War on Terror. He

0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.440
<v Speaker 2>expressed a belief that the life of a single American

0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.119
<v Speaker 2>soldier mattered more than the life of any number of

0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Afghan civilians, and while he apologized for this article being

0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 2>badly written, later the next year, he wrote an article

0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.919
<v Speaker 2>for town Hall in which he argued in favor of

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.800
<v Speaker 2>allowing Israel to quote transfer Palestinians and Israeli Arabs from

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.919
<v Speaker 2>Judea Samari, yeah, Gaza and is real proper. That's just

0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:03.960
<v Speaker 2>an ethnic cleansing.

0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 4>Like transfer is not a dirty word. I think is

0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 4>the title of that piece. That's ethnic cleansing.

0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.679
<v Speaker 2>Fuck it is raally air. They're like citizens, you realize that, right, Like,

0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:14.879
<v Speaker 2>I guess it doesn't matter because they're not Jewish.

0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:16.919
<v Speaker 4>I guess I feel like he only really apologized for

0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.359
<v Speaker 4>like like you're saying it being poorly written, which Ben

0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:20.600
<v Speaker 4>apologized for everything you've.

0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.160
<v Speaker 3>Ever written, everything he does, but not the actual argument.

0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:25.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't think.

0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.280
<v Speaker 4>I don't think he's actually he ever actually said like

0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.840
<v Speaker 4>and I don't think we should be doing this, or

0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.920
<v Speaker 4>he did and then changed his mind back.

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think both of those things have happened.

0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.960
<v Speaker 2>During this rant, ben first starts referring to and again

0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 2>going sorry because we've gone off on a tangent. This

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.640
<v Speaker 2>rant is about the protests last year in London against

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the Genizide and Gaza. During this rant, beIN first starts

0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.280
<v Speaker 2>referring to the Lions collectively as the Pride with a

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.359
<v Speaker 2>capital P, in order to differentiate from the so called

0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Scavengers as a group. He accuses scavengers of being willing

0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.879
<v Speaker 2>to do quote anything to tear down the Pride. This

0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>is not mere anti semitism. Anti Semitism is an age

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.680
<v Speaker 2>old hatred rooted in a conspiracy theory. It takes many

0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.840
<v Speaker 2>forms and has countless victims. This is something different. It

0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:16.160
<v Speaker 2>is a united coalitional hatred of the West. Now, this

0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>is actually where I come closest to agreeing with Shapiro

0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.440
<v Speaker 2>in a certain sense, because the primary motivating factor of

0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.879
<v Speaker 2>these protests is not anti Semitism there been, and I

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.879
<v Speaker 2>agree one factor at play within many people protesting against

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Israel's actions here is a coalitional hatred of what Beend

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 2>defines as the West. But while he tries to describe

0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 2>this as an unreasoning hatred of Western civilization, it's very

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:43.040
<v Speaker 2>clearly a hatred of what Western governments do to specific

0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.560
<v Speaker 2>groups of people. Yeah, exactly right, like the decades of

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:51.440
<v Speaker 2>support for Israel's continuing actions that have been genocidal and

0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 2>quasigenicidal for quite some time.

0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.480
<v Speaker 4>He concently does this, I mean with many different topics

0:22:55.480 --> 0:23:01.000
<v Speaker 4>and issues, but he's conflating I mean, basic criticism of actions,

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.639
<v Speaker 4>like it's not it's not saying like these values that

0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.439
<v Speaker 4>you pretend to have are evil. It's not about like

0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:12.520
<v Speaker 4>Western values or anything like that. It's about specific actions

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:17.199
<v Speaker 4>being taken that should be able to be criticized without

0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 4>you saying like, so you hate everything we've ever done

0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.640
<v Speaker 4>and everything we believe in. Well, if it's this, then yeah,

0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.600
<v Speaker 4>I guess that's not what is actually being said or claimed.

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.919
<v Speaker 2>Right, And we will continue and get to ben talking

0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>about j. R. R. Tolkien, which I am excited to

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.879
<v Speaker 2>chat with you about, Cody, But first let's have some

0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:44.160
<v Speaker 2>ads and we're back. So, after introducing this protest and

0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.120
<v Speaker 2>starting his Scavengers and the Pride, you know, discourse, been

0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 2>pivots to discussing the Lord of the Rings. And it

0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 2>becomes clear here that that opening sort of vignette about

0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:59.080
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of thousands strong marching their banners unfurled, this was

0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 2>him pull from Tolkien describing.

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.160
<v Speaker 3>Howards barbarians at the gates at the Armies.

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Of War marching on minister is right. Yes, yeah, he's

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.199
<v Speaker 2>not like fly. It's obvious what he's doing. And he

0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 2>gets very direct here. He literally calls the quote Cords

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.080
<v Speaker 2>of Mordor stand ins for the Nazis and their allies. Now,

0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.919
<v Speaker 2>Tolkien himself would have rejected been claiming this wholeheartedly. He

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:26.240
<v Speaker 2>always rejected. He hated it when people like accused the

0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Lord of the Rings of being rooted in real history

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 2>and his World War One experiences. And I do tend

0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:33.720
<v Speaker 2>to be in the camp of like, well, obviously they

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:35.760
<v Speaker 2>were kind of both World War One and World War

0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Two influenced what you were writing about, Like, I'm sorry, yeah, I.

0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:43.040
<v Speaker 3>Just have influenced your art in many ways.

0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Now that said Lord of the Rings in case

0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.680
<v Speaker 2>you didn't know, was written mostly between nineteen thirty seven

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:53.119
<v Speaker 2>and nineteen forty nine trilogy that was like the bulk

0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.520
<v Speaker 2>of the writing. It wasn't published until the fifties, but

0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:57.040
<v Speaker 2>that's when he was like doing most of his writing

0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:59.199
<v Speaker 2>and editing. And I would agree with Ben that, like,

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:02.240
<v Speaker 2>there's clear nearly some World War Two in the Lord

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:05.440
<v Speaker 2>of the Rings, but it's also not accurate to say

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:07.320
<v Speaker 2>the Hordes of Mortar are just stand ins for the

0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Nazis and their allies. That's not really true. And I

0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:14.720
<v Speaker 2>think it's worth discussing J. R. R. Tolkien's personal politics

0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:17.560
<v Speaker 2>here because like most peoples, they are complex and not

0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 2>entirely consistent and sometimes incoherent. For an example, Tolkien on

0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.720
<v Speaker 2>a number of occasions described himself as an anarchist and

0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.280
<v Speaker 2>describe himself as an anarchist in ways that are like

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:31.800
<v Speaker 2>relatively recognizable to modern day anarchists. He talked about his

0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:36.359
<v Speaker 2>hatred of power. He expressed a disgust for industrialism that

0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 2>is very much in line with how some monarcho primitivists

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:42.639
<v Speaker 2>talk today. Right, not entirely so, but his fundamental dissection

0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:45.280
<v Speaker 2>of like why he was an anarchist is very much

0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:48.640
<v Speaker 2>like relevant to modern day anarchists. He thought people were

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:51.679
<v Speaker 2>not fit to hold power over people. Right, this is

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.880
<v Speaker 2>an important belief, the ring of power, right, never heard

0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 2>that is effectively an object in which all of like

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:03.920
<v Speaker 2>political power, all power of the state is craving sourcial

0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:08.440
<v Speaker 2>line to it, right like, that's it's not super subtle. Right, Yeah,

0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:10.520
<v Speaker 2>there's certainly a reading of the Lord of the Rings

0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.080
<v Speaker 2>that's very much anarchist. And at the same time, Tolkien

0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:17.239
<v Speaker 2>was for example, not an uncritical but a supporter of

0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the Franco regime during the Spanish Civil War, largely because

0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 2>he was horrified at the killings and what he saw

0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:26.520
<v Speaker 2>as the unjustified murders of nuns and priests and whatnot

0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:28.679
<v Speaker 2>by in some cases anarchists.

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:28.920
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:32.560
<v Speaker 2>And so again this is not like most people. Jared

0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:36.159
<v Speaker 2>Tolkien's political beliefs were not entirely cohero or consistent.

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:38.960
<v Speaker 3>Little bit yes, contextual.

0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:41.960
<v Speaker 2>However, what I can say is that Jared Tolkien was

0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.639
<v Speaker 2>not at all in alignment with Ben Shapiro's politics and

0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:47.679
<v Speaker 2>would have been disgusted by them. Tolkien was a firm

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 2>anti Nazi. He was also a very anti Stalin, but

0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:54.440
<v Speaker 2>he was regularly critical of conservative icon Winston Churchill, who

0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:57.800
<v Speaker 2>he described as looking like the biggest Ruffian and photographs

0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.880
<v Speaker 2>from the Tehran conference right so he he has said, basically,

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:04.879
<v Speaker 2>standing next to fucking Joseph Stalin, Winston Churchill looks like

0:27:04.920 --> 0:27:09.240
<v Speaker 2>a scumbag like oh, which is not something Ben Shapiro

0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:11.879
<v Speaker 2>would ever say. I found a summary of a letter

0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.560
<v Speaker 2>that Tolkien sent his son Christopher into Scember of nineteen

0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 2>forty three that gives you an idea of how little

0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Tolkien's personal politics graft on the Ben's ideological schema. Tolkien

0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 2>lamented that the globe was getting smaller, duller in flatter,

0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>foreseeing American sanitation, moral pep feminism, and mass production introduced everywhere,

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.360
<v Speaker 2>which would at least cut down travel. Colonel Knox said

0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:34.679
<v Speaker 2>that one eighth of the world spoke English, which Tolkien

0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:37.080
<v Speaker 2>called a damn shame. He called for the Curse of

0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Babbel to strike all tongues and considered refusing to speak

0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:45.400
<v Speaker 2>anything but Old Mercian. Seriously. Tolkien found a Merrow cosmopolitanism terrifying.

0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 2>He was unsure if victory would be much better for

0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:49.879
<v Speaker 2>the world as a whole. This was the sentiment of

0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:52.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of folk, but it indicated no lack of patriotism.

0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Tolkien loved England, but not Great Britain and certainly not

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.639
<v Speaker 2>the British Commonwealth. But were he younger, Tolkien figured he

0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 2>would be grousing in the military, willing to go to

0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the bitter end, and hoping that things might turn out

0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:06.719
<v Speaker 2>better for England again you know you can find. Tolkien

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.960
<v Speaker 2>had some issues with like feminism, like or what he

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 2>saw his feminism, but he also he hated like American capitalism.

0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.760
<v Speaker 2>He was disgusted by like advertisements. He was disgusted by

0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 2>the culture of consumption, and he was disgusted by the

0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.520
<v Speaker 2>flattening of culture by the idea that everyone would need

0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:28.160
<v Speaker 2>to speak you know, English, by the idea that American

0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:32.960
<v Speaker 2>culture would flatten the world right. He found this personally

0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:38.200
<v Speaker 2>horrifying and disgusting, which is like the opposite of Ben's politics.

0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:40.640
<v Speaker 2>And he was not pro the British Empire. He was

0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 2>in fact deeply critical of the British Empire for the

0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:47.040
<v Speaker 2>reasons established in the letter above. He hated the flattening

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 2>of cultures around the globe under burgeoning capitalism, and was

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:52.640
<v Speaker 2>disgusted by the domination of peoples around the world by

0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:56.200
<v Speaker 2>foreign powers. The beliefs he most consistently expressed throughout his

0:28:56.240 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>adult life. We were sort of anti capitalist, anti industrial

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:02.560
<v Speaker 2>real sentiment based around a hatred of pollution and the

0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:05.160
<v Speaker 2>destruction of the natural world. But he was clear in

0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:06.920
<v Speaker 2>his letters to his son and others that he saw

0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:09.800
<v Speaker 2>America and Americanism as the central culprits in this I.

0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:12.760
<v Speaker 4>Mean, that's what Mordor was basically modeled after, right, like

0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:13.280
<v Speaker 4>and like that.

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like there's Germany in there too, yeah.

0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:18.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but like the orcs like sprouting up from the

0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:21.600
<v Speaker 4>ground and like destroying the planet and all that stuff

0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:23.360
<v Speaker 4>that we apparently love now.

0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, like like there's some Germany in Mordar, but there's

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:29.400
<v Speaker 2>more than a little of the United States there too,

0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:32.400
<v Speaker 2>and quite frankly, more than a little Great Britain. You know,

0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>he was not because he was looking at the industrialization

0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 2>that had happened in his own country too. This is

0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 2>something that horrified him.

0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:39.960
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.360
<v Speaker 2>If Tolkien were somehow to have survived to the present

0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.720
<v Speaker 2>day and gotten involved in like a film version of

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 2>The Lord of the Rings and had any choice in

0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:51.840
<v Speaker 2>casting a voice actor for surn I wouldn't be surprised

0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:53.800
<v Speaker 2>if he wound up sounding like a Californian.

0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:55.320
<v Speaker 3>Right, that's a little.

0:29:55.080 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Bit, a little bit, but like he expresses in line

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:03.800
<v Speaker 2>with that, right, like yeah, I can tell you one

0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:05.880
<v Speaker 2>thing that conservatives are on about in this country that

0:30:05.920 --> 0:30:07.840
<v Speaker 2>he would have hated is the idea that like everyone

0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.560
<v Speaker 2>needs to speak English. What the fuck are you talking about?

0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, anyway, After quoting a passage from Return of the

0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:17.440
<v Speaker 2>King describing the armies of Mortal marching on Minace tireth Bin,

0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Shapiro writes, so it goes today in London the lions

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 2>are gone, and without the spirit of the lion, our

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:27.800
<v Speaker 2>civilization collapses. What is the spirit of the lion? The

0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:35.320
<v Speaker 2>spirit of her success, of responsibility, of duty. Now I

0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 2>should note here Godi lions sleep up to eighteen hours

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:41.600
<v Speaker 2>a day. They have intensely matrilineal family group. The women

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 2>run and like are in charge as a general rule

0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:47.920
<v Speaker 2>in lion society. And of course, as I mentioned earlier,

0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:51.000
<v Speaker 2>they steal in scavenge food regularly from kills made by

0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:54.880
<v Speaker 2>better but physically weaker predators like hyenas. I know it's

0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:57.120
<v Speaker 2>probably silly for me to keep returning to the builders

0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>and know a goddamn thing about lions. Well, but paragraphs

0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.680
<v Speaker 2>like this drive me fucking crazy, Cody. The lion is

0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:06.680
<v Speaker 2>a hunter, creative, audacious, innovative. He bens the world to

0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.840
<v Speaker 2>his will. He forges new paths and crafts new solutions.

0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.120
<v Speaker 2>When faced with a problem, the lion does not complain

0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:14.560
<v Speaker 2>about the unfairness of life. He seeks an answer. The

0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:17.480
<v Speaker 2>lion is bold and persistent. Failure does not unnerve him.

0:31:17.480 --> 0:31:20.080
<v Speaker 2>It teaches him. The lion knows that boldness of purpose

0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:22.320
<v Speaker 2>and willingness to undergo risk are the driving forces of

0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 2>any successful civilization. He believes, in the words of Proverbs,

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.400
<v Speaker 2>where there is no vision, the people perish.

0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:31.280
<v Speaker 3>He's really stretching this really or really really far.

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Let's avoid the biological critiques here. If we're just talking

0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:39.720
<v Speaker 2>about conservatives, the opposite of what you do is find

0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:43.960
<v Speaker 2>new solutions to problems or forge new paths. You're violently

0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:47.400
<v Speaker 2>offended by the idea of forging new paths and new solutions.

0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Novelty disgusts you. Ben Shapiro, You're a arch conservative.

0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 4>Observatives. There's one bit also about like they don't whine.

0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:57.520
<v Speaker 4>I know that's not what Oh my.

0:31:57.520 --> 0:31:59.520
<v Speaker 2>God, Yes, Yeah, No, he's saying that they don't complain.

0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:01.520
<v Speaker 2>The lion is complain about the unfairness of life. That's

0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 2>literally your job, bit.

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 3>Buddy, that's every conservative's job. That is the only way

0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 3>you've ever made money's job.

0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:13.080
<v Speaker 4>He's constantly talking about everything is unfair to him specifically.

0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's just you're got rich complaining, Ben, that's what

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:19.479
<v Speaker 2>you do for a living business model.

0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:23.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, complain and then sell leftist tears mugs. Right, what

0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 4>are you talking about, lion?

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:29.920
<v Speaker 3>It's absurd. Yeah, I think there's also Ezra Klein did

0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:30.920
<v Speaker 3>an interview with Ben.

0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.800
<v Speaker 4>Uh oh crazy, Yeah, not you know whatever, But like

0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:37.400
<v Speaker 4>Ben's like talking about like lions, and he's like yeah,

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 4>and then you know, they build the social fabric and

0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:44.600
<v Speaker 4>all this kind of stuff. Pump's entire project is to

0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:49.000
<v Speaker 4>tear down the social fabric. That's not the lion that

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:53.520
<v Speaker 4>you're talking about. Literally, in twenty nineteen, Ben was on

0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:55.600
<v Speaker 4>like Bill Maher or something and he's like, yeah, I

0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:57.920
<v Speaker 4>didn't vote for Trump in twenty sixteen because I didn't

0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:01.000
<v Speaker 4>want to break the social fabric, but he did, so

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.480
<v Speaker 4>now I'm going to vote for him because he's already

0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:07.960
<v Speaker 4>broken the social fabric like a scavenger maybe.

0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, it's just.

0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 3>The whole thing. It's just like not, it's just a mess.

0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a mess, and it's like ultimately been. I know,

0:33:17.640 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you believe in things to be entirely fair. I can

0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 2>think of it one time in his life where Ben

0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.320
<v Speaker 2>took a principal moral stand when he got really angry

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:25.360
<v Speaker 2>at when he left.

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah for uh what was it Lewandowski?

0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, was physically aggressive towards like a female employee.

0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:37.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, no, he left. It was, uh, I've mentioned that

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:38.840
<v Speaker 4>exact thing before he gets good.

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Unlike a lot of these guys, Ben does believe in

0:33:41.600 --> 0:33:45.720
<v Speaker 2>some things, but his beliefs are very fluid, right, and

0:33:45.760 --> 0:33:48.040
<v Speaker 2>his morality is very fluid, you know.

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:50.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's so inconsistent.

0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 4>He became a political pundit when he's seventeen, like he's

0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:55.040
<v Speaker 4>got it, he's got to do that. He wasn't ready

0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 4>for that, and he decided to do it. And he's

0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:00.640
<v Speaker 4>just constantly inconsistent. Everything he purports to like believe in

0:34:00.800 --> 0:34:04.600
<v Speaker 4>socially in the conservative sphere is not something like he lives.

0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:08.640
<v Speaker 4>He's like a theater guy with a doctor wife. He

0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 4>stays home and like does podcasting and takes care of

0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:14.319
<v Speaker 4>the kids. Like that's not what he purports that people

0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:16.239
<v Speaker 4>should be doing now now.

0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Ben goes on to describe the lion as quote a

0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.360
<v Speaker 2>warrior who understands the spirit of the scavenger is always

0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:27.239
<v Speaker 2>abroad and that only strength can defend against it. Then

0:34:27.600 --> 0:34:30.759
<v Speaker 2>and again, the lions are the scavengers, like his need

0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:32.080
<v Speaker 2>to defend whatever.

0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 4>Warriors are you like doing like now, they're like people

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:36.920
<v Speaker 4>doing like whatever.

0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:39.880
<v Speaker 2>And lions aren't warriors. They don't have wars. They fight

0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:41.680
<v Speaker 2>because they're animals.

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:43.280
<v Speaker 4>Exactly, Like why are you saying the lines are warriors?

0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:44.160
<v Speaker 4>What are you talking about?

0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:45.080
<v Speaker 2>It's just not anyway.

0:34:45.160 --> 0:34:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Whatever.

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:49.200
<v Speaker 2>Then he brings up another much better writer, C. S. Lewis,

0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:52.200
<v Speaker 2>claiming the lion lives by these words, and he's quoting C. S.

0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Lewis right that he's Ben says describes how the lion lives.

0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:58.359
<v Speaker 2>Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the

0:34:58.360 --> 0:35:01.240
<v Speaker 2>form of every virtue at the testing point, which means,

0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:04.480
<v Speaker 2>at the point of highest reality, a chastity or honesty

0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.600
<v Speaker 2>or mercy which yields to danger will be chased, or

0:35:07.600 --> 0:35:12.160
<v Speaker 2>honest or merciful only on conditions. Now, that's a very

0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:12.880
<v Speaker 2>good point from C.

0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:13.480
<v Speaker 3>S Lewis.

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Ben understands what this sentence means. It's

0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:20.040
<v Speaker 2>a good sentence, yeah, because I mean his whole being

0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.879
<v Speaker 2>disgusted and horrified at Trump and then voting for him

0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:25.640
<v Speaker 2>and supporting him because he won and pivoting like that's

0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:30.840
<v Speaker 2>that's him yielding to danger, a danger to his career,

0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:32.720
<v Speaker 2>a danger to maybe his personal health.

0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:34.719
<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's what the dentire GOP did. We all

0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:36.760
<v Speaker 4>saw it live in twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen.

0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:37.320
<v Speaker 3>It happened.

0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:39.680
<v Speaker 4>We saw Ted Cruz go out there and say vote

0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:42.320
<v Speaker 4>your conscience, and then like four weeks later he's sweaty

0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:44.080
<v Speaker 4>on the phone and being like, well for trap plays

0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:45.600
<v Speaker 4>right exactly.

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:48.160
<v Speaker 2>And that's I agree with this CS Lewis quote. It's

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:51.520
<v Speaker 2>a very well written and accurate point to make, and

0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Ben does not understand it at all because he is

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:56.920
<v Speaker 2>incapable of living that way. Bin's entire career has been

0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.080
<v Speaker 2>built on taking money from the mega rich to push

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 2>a very specific kind of propaganda. He wouldn't no courage

0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:03.440
<v Speaker 2>if it bit him in the ass, and he has

0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:05.400
<v Speaker 2>never had to stand up for what's right in a

0:36:05.400 --> 0:36:08.920
<v Speaker 2>way that meant taking on any meaningful personal risk. Lewis's

0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:12.640
<v Speaker 2>quotation here is excoriating men like Ben Shapiro who lack

0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:15.279
<v Speaker 2>any meaningful virtue because they've never had to stand up

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:17.800
<v Speaker 2>to any kind of danger. I would like to introduce

0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Ben to another quote, one that might be more relevant

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:22.680
<v Speaker 2>to his own stated political aims and the aims of

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:25.200
<v Speaker 2>the party he supports. This is from a nineteen forty

0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:27.439
<v Speaker 2>six letter C. S. Lewis sent to a professor friend

0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:30.640
<v Speaker 2>of his, collected in of Other Worlds, Essays and stories.

0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:31.440
<v Speaker 3>Quote.

0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than

0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:40.840
<v Speaker 2>an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity

0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:43.319
<v Speaker 2>at some point be sated, and since he dimly knows

0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:46.200
<v Speaker 2>he is doing wrong, he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor,

0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 2>who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and

0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.759
<v Speaker 2>fear for the voice of Heaven, will torment us indefinitely.

0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience,

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.

0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:03.560
<v Speaker 4>There it is I mean that's like, it's just like

0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:08.480
<v Speaker 4>now they're supporting a Robert Baron who is leading.

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.880
<v Speaker 3>Who is backed by theocrat back to theocratic movement, like

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.520
<v Speaker 3>we just he's talking about he's just doing both. It's

0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:15.279
<v Speaker 3>so c. S.

0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Lewis failed to continu to consider you know, Porko loss

0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:19.719
<v Speaker 2>dos right, But if.

0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:22.640
<v Speaker 4>You get a Robert Baron to lead your theocratic movement,

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.600
<v Speaker 4>that's yeah, wild man.

0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:30.080
<v Speaker 2>There we go, speaking of Robert Barons. Cody, the sponsors

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:33.600
<v Speaker 2>of this podcast, Yeah, get him, there we go, got

0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 2>him so good, hell and we're back.

0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Snaps for Robert for the ad transition.

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:44.799
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Sophie. Thank you Sophie, Thank you.

0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 3>So Cody clapped.

0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I guess I just cared praise. I simply crave it.

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:55.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's it's my heroine also Heroin. No, I

0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:57.920
<v Speaker 2>don't do it Robert anymore.

0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:00.839
<v Speaker 3>No, I mean, according to R. F Jor, it helps

0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:02.719
<v Speaker 3>you focus in school, it does.

0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:05.800
<v Speaker 2>It makes it great easy to focus or at least

0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:07.240
<v Speaker 2>focus on being on Heroin.

0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:11.359
<v Speaker 3>Didn't know I was on Heroin until I did it.

0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:12.480
<v Speaker 3>Now it's all I can think about.

0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:14.600
<v Speaker 2>To be fair, the only heroine I've ever taken. I

0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.520
<v Speaker 2>licked off a guy's finger at a cafe in rural India.

0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 3>That's fair.

0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:24.000
<v Speaker 2>It was a nice afternoon. So we're talking about C. S. Lewis,

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.000
<v Speaker 2>who been Shapiro just.

0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:27.760
<v Speaker 3>Brought up not locking Heroin off of fingers.

0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, we're not, although I'd do it again, oh buddy,

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Well maybe not in this vinsical era. Anyway. It's worth

0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:37.799
<v Speaker 2>noting that in nineteen fifty one, when Winston Churchill and

0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:41.480
<v Speaker 2>his Conservative Party retook the UK government, the Prime Minister's

0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Office wrote Lewis a letter offering to gift him an

0:38:43.920 --> 0:38:47.080
<v Speaker 2>honorary title Commander of the British Empire, and C. S.

0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Lewis declined, not because he wasn't Conservative. He was, that's

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the most accurate box to put him into, but because

0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 2>he was worried that if he accepted it would turn

0:38:56.719 --> 0:38:59.279
<v Speaker 2>him into a political figure, which would diminish him as

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 2>a writer into thinker, because well, again he would talk

0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:05.880
<v Speaker 2>philosophically about things that kind of were adjacent to politics.

0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:08.760
<v Speaker 2>He was kind of disgusted at the idea of being

0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:11.799
<v Speaker 2>like what Ben Shapiro is, you know, like of being

0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:15.800
<v Speaker 2>a political pundit propaganda, because he thought that was gross,

0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:16.759
<v Speaker 2>because it is.

0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, to put those sort of thoughts in your.

0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:22.759
<v Speaker 2>Work, as or Will would say, all art is propaganda, right,

0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:24.359
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think Lewis believed that.

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:26.880
<v Speaker 4>You know, But there's a huge difference between doing your

0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:29.279
<v Speaker 4>art and expressing yourself in that way and being like, well,

0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.120
<v Speaker 4>I'm going to start an organization that does propaganda for

0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:32.800
<v Speaker 4>the regime.

0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:36.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that gets literally paid by oil billionaires to write

0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:37.800
<v Speaker 2>propaganda supporting oil billionaires.

0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:38.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly.

0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:41.839
<v Speaker 2>And again Lewis would have obviously, maybe not obviously if

0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:43.480
<v Speaker 2>you don't know him. But Lewis would have fallen on

0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:47.000
<v Speaker 2>the more conservative acxis of politics, certainly more conservative than progressive.

0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:49.799
<v Speaker 2>But one of his most consistent stances was a sort

0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 2>of disgusted political hacks and politicians. Now where Lewis would

0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.040
<v Speaker 2>align with Ben Shapiro is he had a strong belief

0:39:56.040 --> 0:39:59.240
<v Speaker 2>in natural law and in a sort of objective moral reality,

0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.000
<v Speaker 2>which he saw is necessary to accept in order to

0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:04.600
<v Speaker 2>be able to criticize groups like the Nazis. In other words,

0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Lewis wrote that if there was no right and like

0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:09.680
<v Speaker 2>a greater cosmic sense, by what standards could we judge

0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:11.799
<v Speaker 2>the Nazis as being wrong? And I don't agree with

0:40:11.880 --> 0:40:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Lewis in this I'm just describing his beliefs here. At

0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:18.160
<v Speaker 2>the same time, though, like his friend Tolkien, he expressed

0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:21.440
<v Speaker 2>horror at the two occupations that he worried were doom

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:25.799
<v Speaker 2>mankind the magician, who quote sought power over nature and

0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:29.960
<v Speaker 2>the astrologer, who quote proclaimed nature's power over man. And

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I want to quote from a write up on C. S.

0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Lewis dot com here. The former thought led many to

0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:37.759
<v Speaker 2>think man can do everything, the latter strongly suggested he

0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>can do nothing. Lewis saw modern scientists as the sons

0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:42.959
<v Speaker 2>of the magician, who believe every ill in the world

0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:45.440
<v Speaker 2>can find a cure in science. From the astrologer came

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:48.040
<v Speaker 2>the philosophical materialists, who believed man is nothing but a

0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:51.759
<v Speaker 2>slave to nature his animal instincts. And one thing we

0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:55.080
<v Speaker 2>see here is that despite having a belief in absolute morality,

0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 2>Lewis tended to reject simple dichotomies like the one been

0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:01.320
<v Speaker 2>presents us with. In his Very Bad Book, he presented

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.880
<v Speaker 2>readers with two archetypes in opposition, either of which would

0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:08.480
<v Speaker 2>doom mankind if worshiped or followed. Beyond reason, Lewis isn't

0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:11.239
<v Speaker 2>saying science is bad and he's not saying that, like

0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.560
<v Speaker 2>belief in the natural world is bad, or like kind

0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:18.080
<v Speaker 2>of yielding to nature's power is bad. But making either

0:41:18.120 --> 0:41:21.760
<v Speaker 2>of those like the kind of center of your being

0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:22.800
<v Speaker 2>is bad.

0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:25.760
<v Speaker 4>Right, Because he's also not saying there are two types

0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 4>of people.

0:41:26.920 --> 0:41:30.160
<v Speaker 2>No, No, he's not saying other going too far in

0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:33.960
<v Speaker 2>either of these directions is bad. Yeah, And this is

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:36.600
<v Speaker 2>something that Ben would never do. Ben glories in presenting

0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:39.319
<v Speaker 2>a false and limited choice to the reader and then

0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:42.320
<v Speaker 2>describing one of those choices as inherently good and the

0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:46.080
<v Speaker 2>other is inherently bad. Lewis was a believer in natural

0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>hierarchies and a critique of democracy, which he felt was

0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the best system overall, but also was not a good system.

0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:56.440
<v Speaker 2>And he believed that, among other things, one of the

0:41:56.640 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 2>problems democracy had is that it must ultimately destroy a education.

0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:04.319
<v Speaker 2>Right that, like, because of the way democracy functions, it's

0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:07.600
<v Speaker 2>going to like fuck up the educational system.

0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:13.560
<v Speaker 3>Effects or like overtaking back like scenes or you know, he's.

0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:16.239
<v Speaker 2>Not entirely wrong about Obviously, other democracies do better. So

0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't agree with him. This is inherent but it

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:19.080
<v Speaker 2>can happen, right.

0:42:19.840 --> 0:42:21.360
<v Speaker 3>A lot of bad things can happen and it's not

0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:22.680
<v Speaker 3>exactly exactly.

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:26.160
<v Speaker 2>And Lewis was also he was deeply critical about technological

0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:28.400
<v Speaker 2>process and the worship of machines in a way that

0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:32.560
<v Speaker 2>makes me pretty certain he'd have rejected AI violently. Both

0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:34.760
<v Speaker 2>he and Tolkien would have been on the bomb data

0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:38.200
<v Speaker 2>centers side. If they would be radicals about that, Like

0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.080
<v Speaker 2>if you could bring both of those guys forward and

0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:43.239
<v Speaker 2>explain to them what Sam Altman is trying to do,

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:46.480
<v Speaker 2>they would try to buy a gun, like like they

0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>would be extremists.

0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:49.840
<v Speaker 4>Using I mean even like using the AI for like

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:53.560
<v Speaker 4>fake things like dead people have said, and like the

0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:56.319
<v Speaker 4>ghost AI stuff they're doing all all of it is.

0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:59.359
<v Speaker 2>If you explain to him, like how much water and

0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:03.080
<v Speaker 2>pollution are created by data centers, he would, like fucking

0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Tolkien especially, would lose his mind, like he never imagined

0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:07.680
<v Speaker 2>anything that awful.

0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:11.640
<v Speaker 3>It's just not even like taking a like what the.

0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Thing is doing itself exactly?

0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, what it can create or create in quotes,

0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 4>I guess, but yeah.

0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Now, Lewis did believe that you could reform bad political

0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:24.319
<v Speaker 2>systems through Christian education, like that was his solution to

0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:26.919
<v Speaker 2>the problems democracy causes. For education but he was also

0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 2>against mandating Christian principles in public education. Right, So we

0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 2>see in Lewis as a mix of some values and

0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:35.960
<v Speaker 2>stances that could very easily be mapped to things that

0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Ben himself believes there are some. But mixed in with

0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:42.560
<v Speaker 2>this is a fundamental distrust of giving humans power, one

0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>that makes me equally certain he'd have disliked the argument

0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that Ben is making here about lions and scavengers. In

0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:51.759
<v Speaker 2>his book Present Concerns, Lewis wrote, I don't deserve a

0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:54.359
<v Speaker 2>share in governing a hen roost, much less a nation,

0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Nor do most people who believe advertisements and think in

0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:00.920
<v Speaker 2>catchwords and spread rumors. The real reason for democracy is

0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.520
<v Speaker 2>just the reverse. Mankind is so fallen that no man

0:44:04.600 --> 0:44:07.080
<v Speaker 2>can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows.

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.200
<v Speaker 3>He would hate so much about he be.

0:44:10.120 --> 0:44:15.479
<v Speaker 4>So unhappy like the internet memes, meme culture, like yesh god,

0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:16.560
<v Speaker 4>he and again.

0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Not at all woke, just absolutely not just disgusted with,

0:44:20.840 --> 0:44:23.440
<v Speaker 2>like not a theocrat as Christian as he was not

0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:24.840
<v Speaker 2>a theocrat exactly.

0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:27.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, every single AI post that the Department of Homeland

0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:30.400
<v Speaker 4>Security puts up, like every single thing.

0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:34.640
<v Speaker 2>You're doing is fucking mind oh yeah, grotesque.

0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:36.400
<v Speaker 3>God yeah.

0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Now, after quoting Lewis, Ben introduces another wrinkle to his

0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:43.560
<v Speaker 2>lion scavenger dichotomy. The pride of Lions is split up

0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:47.720
<v Speaker 2>between three sub archetypes. The weaver, who quote weaves together

0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:51.560
<v Speaker 2>the disparate strands of family and society and often goes unnoticed,

0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:55.080
<v Speaker 2>but quote, are the true heroes of our civilization, and

0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:59.560
<v Speaker 2>the hunters. The warriors and the weavers form a pride together.

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:01.600
<v Speaker 2>It is kind of unclear to me what separates the

0:45:01.680 --> 0:45:06.719
<v Speaker 2>hunters from I think the weavers are like women. That's

0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:09.239
<v Speaker 2>the place women have in the pride is they're the weavers.

0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:09.520
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:13.000
<v Speaker 3>The men get two groups to choose from.

0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:18.560
<v Speaker 2>That's right, They get to hunt or war Yeah. I anyway,

0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:21.279
<v Speaker 2>and again also been uses warrior and hunter more or

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:22.560
<v Speaker 2>less synonyms in this book.

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:23.120
<v Speaker 3>It's just.

0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:30.640
<v Speaker 2>After establishing this the subsets of the pride, the categories

0:45:30.640 --> 0:45:34.000
<v Speaker 2>inside the pride been acknowledges that lions have to create

0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.560
<v Speaker 2>a system of rules, which they absolutely don't because they

0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:40.080
<v Speaker 2>each have the spirit of the scavenger in them, and

0:45:40.120 --> 0:45:42.359
<v Speaker 2>so they have to always be on guard against being

0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 2>overtaken by that. And again, half of their calories they

0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:47.560
<v Speaker 2>get from scavenging. Ad they're not unguarded against it, it's

0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:51.920
<v Speaker 2>how they survive. The Pride has a spirit of of scaverty,

0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Lion has the spirit of a scavenger in them. What

0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:59.320
<v Speaker 2>he's trying to say is that, like he's describing the scavengers,

0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:02.080
<v Speaker 2>liberals and left just as like people who are lazy

0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:04.560
<v Speaker 2>and just want to steal from other people and also

0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:07.160
<v Speaker 2>tear down whether people have built. And Ben is trying

0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.120
<v Speaker 2>to say that, like there's that voice in all of

0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:11.640
<v Speaker 2>us that we have to be on guard against, right,

0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Like that's that's what he's trying to say, right, Yeah.

0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:18.120
<v Speaker 4>Because also in that same interview about this book, they

0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:21.880
<v Speaker 4>bring up Vance, and Ben basically admits that, like, yeah,

0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:25.000
<v Speaker 4>the current version of Vance is a bit of a scavenger.

0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:29.759
<v Speaker 4>He's doing all these things. He like he's describe Vance, yeah,

0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:31.799
<v Speaker 4>oh one hundred percent. Like he's like, yeah, the the

0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:34.560
<v Speaker 4>Hillbilly Elogy era, he was like a lion, which like

0:46:34.640 --> 0:46:36.759
<v Speaker 4>maybe he was a scavenger the whole time. Ben, who

0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:38.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, how is that being a lion?

0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:39.879
<v Speaker 2>He's literally just.

0:46:40.040 --> 0:46:43.719
<v Speaker 4>Okay, I know we don't need to but like it's

0:46:43.800 --> 0:46:46.719
<v Speaker 4>just it's absurd, but it was interesting that he is

0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:52.279
<v Speaker 4>willing to recognize that there are scavengers amidst. I don't

0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:53.840
<v Speaker 4>even know if he thinks Trump's a lion or not,

0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:55.400
<v Speaker 4>but that whole group of people.

0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:56.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:46:57.040 --> 0:46:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Next after this we get one of the least coherent

0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.480
<v Speaker 2>sections of the book. Thus far, A pride of lions

0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:06.040
<v Speaker 2>can accomplish nearly anything unless the pride falls to the

0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:09.600
<v Speaker 2>pack and pack is capitalized too. The spirit of the scavenger,

0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the spirit of the scavenger is the spirit of envy.

0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:15.840
<v Speaker 3>He's not he's just putting work.

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:19.200
<v Speaker 1>There's just there's It's just ridiculous.

0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:20.880
<v Speaker 3>It means nothing.

0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:26.239
<v Speaker 2>It means nothing. It's so irrational because the foundation of this,

0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:29.839
<v Speaker 2>the whole light You're just wrong entirely about, Like none

0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.400
<v Speaker 2>of this makes sense. It's like if I were to

0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:35.759
<v Speaker 2>write a book about like fucking I don't even know

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:38.400
<v Speaker 2>how to like make a bad enough analogy.

0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:40.319
<v Speaker 3>No, really bad.

0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:42.920
<v Speaker 4>You can't because also when you say the word pack

0:47:42.960 --> 0:47:46.120
<v Speaker 4>and you capitalize, I'm thinking of wolves, which wouldn't you

0:47:46.480 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 4>be able to use for your other Like they're so interchangeable.

0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:52.520
<v Speaker 2>It's like if I were to write a book called

0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:54.839
<v Speaker 2>The Horse in the Ant and started with like Obviously,

0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the horse sore is high above all of us on

0:47:57.040 --> 0:47:58.360
<v Speaker 2>its mighty wings.

0:47:58.440 --> 0:47:58.680
<v Speaker 4>And.

0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:02.720
<v Speaker 3>Meanwhile the ant looming over the horse.

0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I debated whether or not to discuss the

0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.680
<v Speaker 2>fact that Ben himself is clearly motivated by a deep

0:48:10.880 --> 0:48:11.880
<v Speaker 2>spirit of envy.

0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:12.279
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:14.640
<v Speaker 2>His initial career goal, as you and I have talked

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.640
<v Speaker 2>about on several podcasts Cody, was to write for Hollywood.

0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:19.480
<v Speaker 2>He wanted to be a screenwriter. He wanted to write

0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:22.520
<v Speaker 2>TV in movies. And he filled in this goal because

0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:25.160
<v Speaker 2>he's not good at it, right, And the Daily Wires

0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:29.480
<v Speaker 2>movie like is also a massive waste of money, horrible

0:48:29.520 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>idea because none of them are good writers.

0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:35.920
<v Speaker 4>Hey, you wait until they do the anti woke snow White. Okay,

0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:37.760
<v Speaker 4>that's gonna be really, really good.

0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:40.680
<v Speaker 2>That's going to really blow up. Audiences are craving, the

0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:44.640
<v Speaker 2>children cry out, demanding, and he woke snow fucking White.

0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:47.480
<v Speaker 3>You can hear him now, they're just woke.

0:48:47.520 --> 0:48:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Snow was the Snow White Man like the sixties. It's

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:52.520
<v Speaker 2>not woke, I don't anyway.

0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:54.680
<v Speaker 3>It's because they made a new one and the.

0:48:55.000 --> 0:48:58.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I haven't been keeping up with the fucking

0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Disney don't. Yes, But I think it's important to hear

0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:05.800
<v Speaker 2>the spirit of envy is the primary that's the center

0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:09.680
<v Speaker 2>of Ben Shapiro's soul. Right, it is quite obvious reading

0:49:09.719 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>his angry rants against Hollywood. That's a huge amount of

0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:14.120
<v Speaker 2>his writing, and it's why he's tried to make the

0:49:14.200 --> 0:49:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Daily Wire. They wasted millions trying to create their own

0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:22.279
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood because his hatred of the left its origin in

0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:23.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways. I'm not going to say this

0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:26.040
<v Speaker 2>is the only origin point, but a major source for

0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:28.640
<v Speaker 2>his hatred of the left is because he sees Hollywood

0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:32.600
<v Speaker 2>as a fundamentally leftist institution that refused to give him

0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:35.520
<v Speaker 2>the respect he deserves, that didn't recognize his brilliance.

0:49:35.680 --> 0:49:35.839
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:40.120
<v Speaker 2>That is beIN Shapiro's origin story as a villain is

0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:43.600
<v Speaker 2>that he couldn't hack it as a fucking professional screenwriter.

0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:47.200
<v Speaker 3>Yes, about eighty five percent, right, yeah, exactly.

0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:51.240
<v Speaker 4>Growing up fundamentalist, religious conservative, all that kind of stuff

0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:52.279
<v Speaker 4>did not help.

0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:56.160
<v Speaker 3>But that resentment fueled bienvy is one hundred percent of.

0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he can only see this as an example

0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:02.120
<v Speaker 2>of Hollywood hate conservatives like him, Right, it has to

0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:04.680
<v Speaker 2>be bigotry. That's because that's the only way he could

0:50:04.719 --> 0:50:08.000
<v Speaker 2>not succeed, right, And you know, he has to ignore

0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:09.839
<v Speaker 2>a lot in order to believe this. If he were

0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:12.239
<v Speaker 2>to look at reality, he would see that plenty of

0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:16.800
<v Speaker 2>conservatives have been very successful in Hollywood. Screenwriters like David

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:19.879
<v Speaker 2>Mammott and John Millius right or Millius, I always forget

0:50:19.880 --> 0:50:22.920
<v Speaker 2>the guy who did Red Dawn. Right, Actors like Kelsey

0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:25.759
<v Speaker 2>Grammer and John voightd not to mention Sylvester Stallone and

0:50:25.880 --> 0:50:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Arnold Schwarzenegger, who feels more like a Democrat today but

0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:31.200
<v Speaker 2>was the literal Republican governor of California.

0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:31.560
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:35.120
<v Speaker 2>There's plenty of successful conservatives to the Hollywood as actors

0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:39.200
<v Speaker 2>and writers, massively.

0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:42.680
<v Speaker 3>Successful and talented, very conservative.

0:50:42.000 --> 0:50:45.759
<v Speaker 2>Persons, plenty of conservative like movies that are conservative. And

0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:47.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm just think about how many during the War on Terror,

0:50:47.880 --> 0:50:50.160
<v Speaker 2>how many TV shows and movies had a scene where

0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:53.319
<v Speaker 2>the guy has to torture someone to save lives. Right,

0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:55.680
<v Speaker 2>That is conservative propaganda.

0:50:55.920 --> 0:50:57.839
<v Speaker 4>Even though it's like they would buy a lot of

0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:00.959
<v Speaker 4>like self described libs or whatever, or like, it's still

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:07.319
<v Speaker 4>conservative ideologically. Like, yeah, but we're in America, so we

0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:11.360
<v Speaker 4>don't recognize that all of that is in service of

0:51:11.520 --> 0:51:17.040
<v Speaker 4>a more right wing viewpoint, and he resents it. And

0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:19.080
<v Speaker 4>I mean, we're seeing it now with all this like

0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:22.320
<v Speaker 4>move to like I'm not even gonna say canceled culture

0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:23.160
<v Speaker 4>because that's not what it is.

0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:24.080
<v Speaker 3>It's not what it's going on.

0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:26.400
<v Speaker 4>But like the firing of all these people is an

0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:29.960
<v Speaker 4>expression of that resentment because they want to do it,

0:51:30.040 --> 0:51:31.239
<v Speaker 4>they want to be doing it.

0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Right and there, Yeah, part of it is if I

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:35.560
<v Speaker 2>get them out, finally I'll get a shot and.

0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:37.920
<v Speaker 3>People will realize that I was finally late night with Gefeld.

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right. And obviously, you know, Ben did not fail

0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:44.680
<v Speaker 2>to make it in Hollywood because people were bigoted against

0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:47.080
<v Speaker 2>his conservatism. He failed because he's not a good writer.

0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:50.320
<v Speaker 2>His only talent isn't agitating people with cheap political shots.

0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:52.799
<v Speaker 2>This is very funny because the next paragraph of the

0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:55.280
<v Speaker 2>book after that line about the spirits of the Scavenger

0:51:55.320 --> 0:51:57.560
<v Speaker 2>is the spirit of envy. The very next paragraph is

0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:01.800
<v Speaker 2>basically been describing himself. The Scavenger does not believe in

0:52:01.840 --> 0:52:04.600
<v Speaker 2>an understandable universe in which success is the result of

0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:07.879
<v Speaker 2>performance of duty. Instead, the Scavenger believes that any such

0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:11.520
<v Speaker 2>argument as a guise for power and power alone. The Scavenger,

0:52:11.600 --> 0:52:13.920
<v Speaker 2>in his perverse projection believes that there is a great

0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.760
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy against him, and that the only path to success

0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:19.279
<v Speaker 2>lies in tearing away at that great conspiracy with tooth

0:52:19.320 --> 0:52:28.000
<v Speaker 2>and claw. Oh, bell, Ben Ben, that's your life. That's

0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:30.520
<v Speaker 2>your entire career, buddy.

0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.879
<v Speaker 3>Your first book was about the conspiracy against you, and

0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:37.120
<v Speaker 3>you specifically and conservatives generally.

0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:42.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, your whole life, bro Now. Ben goes on to

0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:46.240
<v Speaker 2>write that while lions form a pride, scavengers form a pack,

0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:49.080
<v Speaker 2>is it a problem from a writing standpoint that pack

0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:50.799
<v Speaker 2>and pride are passable synonyms?

0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:53.160
<v Speaker 3>No? Yeah, I mean it should be.

0:52:53.320 --> 0:52:55.879
<v Speaker 2>But could you describe lions as having a pack?

0:52:56.160 --> 0:52:57.879
<v Speaker 3>Sure? Sure? Right?

0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:00.600
<v Speaker 2>I You couldn't describe other like pride doesn't go both.

0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:04.200
<v Speaker 2>It's very like a urban whiskey thing, right. Anyway, The

0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:10.280
<v Speaker 2>pack consists of looters, lectures, and barbarians. The fall of London,

0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:13.680
<v Speaker 2>he writes, is symptomatic of the growing power of the pack,

0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:16.600
<v Speaker 2>and reading this Reading him write about the fall of

0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:20.960
<v Speaker 2>London felt particularly ridiculous in twenty twenty five, given that

0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:24.160
<v Speaker 2>about a month before Binn's book was published, London police

0:53:24.280 --> 0:53:27.160
<v Speaker 2>arrested four hundred and seventy four people at a Palestine

0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Action ban protest, per the BBC, police have arrested four

0:53:31.000 --> 0:53:33.560
<v Speaker 2>hundred seventy four people at a demonstration in London and support

0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:36.719
<v Speaker 2>of the banned group Palestine Action. The Metropolitan Police said

0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:39.400
<v Speaker 2>four hundred and sixty six protesters were arrested for supporting

0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the group, five for assaults on police officers, two for

0:53:42.000 --> 0:53:44.920
<v Speaker 2>public order offenses and one for a racially aggravated offense.

0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Scores of people simultaneously unveiled handwritten signs with the message

0:53:48.560 --> 0:53:51.840
<v Speaker 2>I opposed genocide, I support Palestine Action at the protest

0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:55.320
<v Speaker 2>organized by Defendar Juries at Westminster's Parliament Square. It was

0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:57.480
<v Speaker 2>the biggest protest since the government prescribed the group in

0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:00.520
<v Speaker 2>July under the Terrorism Act of two thousand, making membership

0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:03.160
<v Speaker 2>of or support for it a criminal offense punishable by

0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:06.400
<v Speaker 2>up to fourteen years in prison. No officers were seriously injured,

0:54:06.400 --> 0:54:08.120
<v Speaker 2>and the Met Police said that the number of arrests

0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:09.919
<v Speaker 2>was the largest made by the force on a single

0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:13.160
<v Speaker 2>day in the last ten years. London really has fallen

0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:16.359
<v Speaker 2>to the pack back of police. You can't even say

0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:19.360
<v Speaker 2>I oppose genocide, I support this group, They'll arrest you.

0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.640
<v Speaker 4>I mean, you know, I feel like he loves it again,

0:54:23.920 --> 0:54:25.840
<v Speaker 4>it's just this is what they're talking about doing now,

0:54:26.160 --> 0:54:29.680
<v Speaker 4>labeling anybody as a terrorist and doing exactly what you

0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:32.520
<v Speaker 4>described but here, yep, that is their political project.

0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:34.400
<v Speaker 3>That is what he is supporting right now.

0:54:34.719 --> 0:54:37.880
<v Speaker 4>He's guesting on all the podcasts with the Vice President,

0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:41.600
<v Speaker 4>who's only a podcaster now talking about this exact things.

0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:46.240
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, So maybe he's a I don't know, wolf

0:54:46.280 --> 0:54:50.719
<v Speaker 3>of Vulture role yes, bad writer, yes, line piece of shit.

0:54:50.760 --> 0:54:52.359
<v Speaker 3>Bad writer. Yeah.

0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Now, given the way book publication timetables work, there's no

0:54:55.680 --> 0:54:58.200
<v Speaker 2>way that you know these mass arrests happened. They certainly

0:54:58.200 --> 0:54:59.839
<v Speaker 2>didn't happen in time for Ben to revise his book

0:54:59.880 --> 0:55:02.239
<v Speaker 2>to account for it. Right, But the fact that this

0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:05.160
<v Speaker 2>happened puts the lie to everything he says here about

0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:08.080
<v Speaker 2>the supposedly massive and rising social power of the Pack

0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:10.600
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that they've taken London, you know, the

0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:12.719
<v Speaker 2>fact that the Pride has to constantly be back on

0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:16.399
<v Speaker 2>their heels, scrambling desperately to hold onto civilization. Because if

0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:18.759
<v Speaker 2>like you just acknowledge that, like no, actually they have

0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:20.960
<v Speaker 2>all the power and they're like massively abusing it and

0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:24.640
<v Speaker 2>like hurting people and like aren't in no danger whatsoever,

0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:27.719
<v Speaker 2>but are endangering huge numbers of people. That doesn't sound

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:28.040
<v Speaker 2>as good.

0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:31.640
<v Speaker 4>No, it needs to be Barbarians at the Gates were perpetual,

0:55:31.960 --> 0:55:34.960
<v Speaker 4>desperately symptoms, perpetually persecuted, And.

0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:37.760
<v Speaker 2>We have every lever of power exactly, And he critiques

0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:41.680
<v Speaker 2>leftists in this passage from embracing Mauseidong's statement that political

0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:43.959
<v Speaker 2>power grows from the barrel of a gun. But that's

0:55:44.000 --> 0:55:47.440
<v Speaker 2>the only power Ben has ever recognized. What do you

0:55:47.560 --> 0:55:50.000
<v Speaker 2>call these, matt what do you call mass arrests? Man

0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:51.839
<v Speaker 2>premise of police? Like?

0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:54.799
<v Speaker 4>What are you talking about? Like ice is like doing?

0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:56.280
<v Speaker 4>Like that is political power?

0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:58.400
<v Speaker 2>What do you call like Israel's actions?

0:55:58.480 --> 0:55:58.680
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:55:58.880 --> 0:56:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Like, I mean it's bomb I guess more than the

0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:03.520
<v Speaker 2>barrel of a gun. But you know, the basic idea

0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:04.080
<v Speaker 2>is the same.

0:56:04.280 --> 0:56:08.080
<v Speaker 3>Right, you can use language in ways to mean many things. Yeah,

0:56:08.200 --> 0:56:11.600
<v Speaker 3>he believes that, Yes, he believes that. Yes.

0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Ben continues with a warning that the children of lions

0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:18.319
<v Speaker 2>well themselves become scavengers if the lions don't pass on

0:56:18.400 --> 0:56:20.719
<v Speaker 2>their ways to their kids, and then he pivots to

0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:23.480
<v Speaker 2>talking about an eighteen ninety seven poem that Richard Kipling

0:56:23.480 --> 0:56:27.040
<v Speaker 2>wrote for The Diamond jubilee of Queen Victoria. This poem,

0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:29.280
<v Speaker 2>written at the height of the power of the British Empire,

0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:33.200
<v Speaker 2>he sees as a warning that went unheeded, the tumult

0:56:33.200 --> 0:56:35.840
<v Speaker 2>and the shouting dies, the captains and the kings depart,

0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:40.640
<v Speaker 2>still stands thine ancient sacrifice and humble in a contrite. Heart, Lord,

0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:43.080
<v Speaker 2>God of Hosts, be with us. Yet lest we forget,

0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Lest we forget now. I don't really see that as

0:56:48.320 --> 0:56:51.120
<v Speaker 2>a warning about not indoctrinating your kid with propaganda, but

0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:52.839
<v Speaker 2>I guess I can see where he's coming from there.

0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:55.920
<v Speaker 2>It's clear that where he goes next in this chapter.

0:56:56.040 --> 0:56:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Basically he says that the reason England fell, so to speak,

0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:01.440
<v Speaker 2>is that they embrace the welfare state. And that's why

0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:04.320
<v Speaker 2>the British Empire ended, right, That's why they're no longer

0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:07.080
<v Speaker 2>the center of the West is because they got taken

0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:10.640
<v Speaker 2>over by these socialist ideas and like the establishing of

0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:14.359
<v Speaker 2>a welfare state, all of those lions, their kids became scavengers,

0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:16.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's the argument.

0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:19.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, mandatory scavengerism, right.

0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:23.440
<v Speaker 2>And this is classic been leaving out a massive and important,

0:57:23.560 --> 0:57:27.120
<v Speaker 2>inconvenient fact that does not fit in his neat ideological lines.

0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:30.840
<v Speaker 2>The British Empire didn't get sick and fail because of welfare.

0:57:31.280 --> 0:57:34.280
<v Speaker 2>It began its slow death slide during the First World War,

0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.840
<v Speaker 2>in which it lit its treasury on fire and annihilated

0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:42.640
<v Speaker 2>a generation of young men. Kipling himself was profoundly changed

0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:44.920
<v Speaker 2>by the horrors of World War One. He was a

0:57:45.000 --> 0:57:47.920
<v Speaker 2>strong imperialist his whole life. He was a very strong

0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:51.040
<v Speaker 2>imperialist prior to the outbreak of hostilities in World War One.

0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Kipling despised Germany and German civilization, and he was a

0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 2>huge supporter at the outset of the war in England,

0:57:58.880 --> 0:58:02.320
<v Speaker 2>getting involved and admitting to it. As the war started,

0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:05.680
<v Speaker 2>he wrote something that feels very familiar to what Ben

0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:08.680
<v Speaker 2>writes in his book For all we have and are,

0:58:09.000 --> 0:58:12.120
<v Speaker 2>for all our children's fate, stand up and take the war.

0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:15.760
<v Speaker 2>The hun is at the gate. That's essentially what Ben's writing.

0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:17.480
<v Speaker 3>That's what he's writing, right.

0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So let's talk about Kipling. Let's talk about what

0:58:19.840 --> 0:58:22.840
<v Speaker 2>World War One did to Kipling. Because Rudyard had one son,

0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:26.040
<v Speaker 2>sixteen year old John Kipling. John was sixteen when the

0:58:26.080 --> 0:58:30.000
<v Speaker 2>war started. Now, John had intended to join the Royal Navy,

0:58:30.080 --> 0:58:32.480
<v Speaker 2>but his eyesight was bad and so he was unable

0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:35.280
<v Speaker 2>to take on a navy career. So Rudyard used his

0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:39.240
<v Speaker 2>connections being a very famous and influential person in media,

0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:41.920
<v Speaker 2>to get John a commission as an officer in the

0:58:41.960 --> 0:58:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Irish Guards, which is a British military unit made up

0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of Irish soldiers right with British officers. In nineteen fifteen,

0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:51.680
<v Speaker 2>John became a platoon commander in the Irish Guards and

0:58:51.760 --> 0:58:54.000
<v Speaker 2>was sent to fight in the Battle of Loose. He

0:58:54.200 --> 0:58:58.560
<v Speaker 2>died while assaulting the German lines. This was a profoundly

0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:03.120
<v Speaker 2>traumatizing and event for Kipling. For one thing, Prior to

0:59:03.160 --> 0:59:07.360
<v Speaker 2>his son becoming appletune matter, Kipling was super anti Irish

0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:09.800
<v Speaker 2>right he was a strong Unionist, so he was anti

0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Irish independence, but he was also just kind of bigoted

0:59:12.560 --> 0:59:15.840
<v Speaker 2>against Irish people. He had written with disgust about Irish

0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:19.560
<v Speaker 2>culture previously, and this changed, I think in part just

0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:22.920
<v Speaker 2>because he had more contact through his son and whatnot

0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:26.080
<v Speaker 2>with Irish people as a result of this, That's how

0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:28.280
<v Speaker 2>things like this can happen. And I'm not going to

0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:30.160
<v Speaker 2>say he ever totally turned around on the issue, but

0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:33.520
<v Speaker 2>he wrote poetry about Irish history and started expressing after

0:59:33.600 --> 0:59:37.120
<v Speaker 2>this point a considerable degree with admiration about irishchol, particularly

0:59:37.120 --> 0:59:38.640
<v Speaker 2>in comparison to what he'd written before.

0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:39.600
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:59:39.720 --> 0:59:42.640
<v Speaker 2>He also wrote this about what happened to his son

0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:45.800
<v Speaker 2>in the wake of World War One. If any question

0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:49.080
<v Speaker 2>why we died, tell them because our fathers lied.

0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:56.840
<v Speaker 4>That seems maybe different from yeah, what the topic started as, right.

0:59:57.120 --> 0:59:59.760
<v Speaker 2>It seems maybe again to go from where Ben is

0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:01.600
<v Speaker 2>like the like no, the wars at the gate, anything

1:00:01.640 --> 1:00:03.240
<v Speaker 2>we have to do is justified, and like, oh no,

1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:07.680
<v Speaker 2>my son's dead. Up my kids, Maybe this was a

1:00:07.720 --> 1:00:10.720
<v Speaker 2>fuck up. Right now, there's some context to this line,

1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:12.240
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to quote from an article for The

1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Irish Times by Ronan McGreevy explaining the context behind this line.

1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:18.680
<v Speaker 2>This has often been wrongly interpreted as Kipling believing that

1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:21.000
<v Speaker 2>his son's death was in vain. He never believed the

1:00:21.000 --> 1:00:24.640
<v Speaker 2>First World War was unnecessary, he believed it was badly prosecuted.

1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:26.720
<v Speaker 2>On a more general level, this couplet is about the

1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:29.960
<v Speaker 2>lies the older generations tell that compels the younger to fight.

1:00:30.240 --> 1:00:31.959
<v Speaker 2>It could also allude to his own lives and getting

1:00:32.000 --> 1:00:34.200
<v Speaker 2>a son a commission when he was physically unfit to fight.

1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:36.800
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot going on here. But Kipling was

1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:38.520
<v Speaker 2>racked for the rest of his life with a tremendous

1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:41.320
<v Speaker 2>guilt because of what happened to his son, and because

1:00:41.440 --> 1:00:43.360
<v Speaker 2>even if he could never admit that World War One

1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:46.480
<v Speaker 2>was itself fully a bad idea, he knew that it

1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:48.640
<v Speaker 2>was right. He had to be like, well, it was

1:00:48.680 --> 1:00:50.560
<v Speaker 2>badly probab but he I think there's a degree of

1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:53.880
<v Speaker 2>ego there. But he knew that he'd fucked up right,

1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:55.000
<v Speaker 2>that they all had.

1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:56.600
<v Speaker 3>Lied to them to get them to fight.

1:00:57.160 --> 1:01:01.240
<v Speaker 2>That's and you know, Ben Ben will know ever admit

1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:03.680
<v Speaker 2>to being wrong about anything. I don't think, no matter

1:01:03.720 --> 1:01:07.760
<v Speaker 2>what happens, he's capable of that. But Kipling was to

1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:11.400
<v Speaker 2>an extent, you know, he never fully repudiated imperialism. But

1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:13.800
<v Speaker 2>he went to his grave racked by the knowledge that

1:01:13.840 --> 1:01:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the war he'd endorsed and supported had taken not only

1:01:16.040 --> 1:01:19.000
<v Speaker 2>his son, but had shattered the British Empire, right, it

1:01:19.040 --> 1:01:22.680
<v Speaker 2>had shattered his hopes of continuing British imperial dominance. As

1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:25.240
<v Speaker 2>an imperialist. He couldn't ignore the fact that like, oh

1:01:25.280 --> 1:01:26.240
<v Speaker 2>this kind of ruined.

1:01:25.960 --> 1:01:29.560
<v Speaker 4>It at all, right, Yeah, you know, like sometimes expressing that

1:01:29.720 --> 1:01:32.640
<v Speaker 4>sort of guilt is how you're actually saying that you

1:01:32.640 --> 1:01:36.440
<v Speaker 4>were wrong without saying it right, because that's human beings

1:01:36.440 --> 1:01:39.840
<v Speaker 4>are complex and it can be very hard to just

1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:40.800
<v Speaker 4>say those words.

1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:43.840
<v Speaker 3>So you just expressed the guilt of it, right.

1:01:43.920 --> 1:01:47.280
<v Speaker 2>And it's so telling about Ben and about what goes

1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:51.360
<v Speaker 2>on in his head that he cites approvingly this passage

1:01:51.760 --> 1:01:54.520
<v Speaker 2>of Kipling while ignoring the rest of his life, because

1:01:54.920 --> 1:01:57.440
<v Speaker 2>in reality, a figure like Rudyard Kipling ought to be

1:01:57.480 --> 1:02:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a warning to Ben Shapiro and those like him. Right,

1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:03.960
<v Speaker 2>And even again, I don't want to frame it as

1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:07.040
<v Speaker 2>like Kipling got woke after World War One, but Kipling

1:02:07.080 --> 1:02:10.560
<v Speaker 2>got increasingly critical of imperialism and of his previous stances

1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:13.640
<v Speaker 2>after World War One, and he actually wrote some stuff.

1:02:13.680 --> 1:02:15.680
<v Speaker 2>One of his poems, A pict Song, is one of

1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:20.160
<v Speaker 2>my favorite anti imperialist pieces of writing. And I was

1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:23.240
<v Speaker 2>considering just reading like a segment from it. But do

1:02:23.240 --> 1:02:25.440
<v Speaker 2>you mind if I just read the poem because I

1:02:25.520 --> 1:02:27.560
<v Speaker 2>think we all need this, right, I think this might

1:02:27.600 --> 1:02:31.200
<v Speaker 2>be handy as we all watch this fucking empire come

1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:33.160
<v Speaker 2>down to crush us and the ones we love. So

1:02:33.800 --> 1:02:35.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna read this poem and then we'll talk about.

1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:39.360
<v Speaker 3>It depressing, and then yeah, yeah, you're the place poem.

1:02:39.960 --> 1:02:43.439
<v Speaker 2>So this is a picked song by Ridyard Kipling. Rome

1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:47.000
<v Speaker 2>never looks where she treads. Always her heavy hoofs fall

1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:50.080
<v Speaker 2>on our stomachs, our hearts, or our heads. And Rome

1:02:50.200 --> 1:02:53.560
<v Speaker 2>never heeds when we ball her. Centuries pass on, that

1:02:53.720 --> 1:02:56.640
<v Speaker 2>is all, and we gather behind them in hordes and

1:02:56.720 --> 1:02:59.760
<v Speaker 2>plot to reconquer the wall with only our tongues for

1:02:59.800 --> 1:03:03.440
<v Speaker 2>our swords. We are the little folk, we too little

1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to love or to hate. Leave us alone, and you'll

1:03:06.000 --> 1:03:09.120
<v Speaker 2>see how we can drag down the state. We are

1:03:09.160 --> 1:03:11.360
<v Speaker 2>the worm in the wood. We are the rod at

1:03:11.400 --> 1:03:13.960
<v Speaker 2>the root. We are the taint and the blood. We

1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:17.280
<v Speaker 2>are the thorn in the foot, mistletoe killing an oak,

1:03:17.760 --> 1:03:21.760
<v Speaker 2>rats gnawing cables in two moths, making holes in a coat.

1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:24.800
<v Speaker 2>How they must love what they do. Yes, and we

1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:28.160
<v Speaker 2>little folk too, We are as busy as they, working

1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:28.880
<v Speaker 2>our works.

1:03:28.600 --> 1:03:28.960
<v Speaker 3>Out of you.

1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Watch and you'll see it someday. No, indeed we are

1:03:32.840 --> 1:03:36.160
<v Speaker 2>not strong, but we know peoples that are, Yes, and

1:03:36.200 --> 1:03:39.280
<v Speaker 2>we'll guide them along to smash and destroy you in war.

1:03:39.800 --> 1:03:42.720
<v Speaker 2>We shall be slaves just the same. Yes, we have

1:03:42.800 --> 1:03:46.160
<v Speaker 2>always been slaves. But you you will die of the shame,

1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and then we shall dance on your graves. I like

1:03:52.200 --> 1:03:55.600
<v Speaker 2>that poem. Anyway, That's all I got for part one,

1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:58.640
<v Speaker 2>or for the first. We'll probably come back to this book,

1:03:58.760 --> 1:04:02.040
<v Speaker 2>but I think you get the idea of what beIN's

1:04:02.040 --> 1:04:03.720
<v Speaker 2>going for here and why it's full of shit.

1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:07.560
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I'm convinced that maybe we're all lines and scavengers.

1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:09.080
<v Speaker 3>Are we part of a pack?

1:04:09.640 --> 1:04:11.760
<v Speaker 4>We're also a part of a pack, and we are

1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:16.200
<v Speaker 4>also a colony of we can say ants or hive also,

1:04:16.880 --> 1:04:21.920
<v Speaker 4>and the hives are made of crows, and the crows

1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:24.680
<v Speaker 4>are made of lions, right.

1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, Every crow contains a lion, you know. Yeah, it's known.

1:04:29.960 --> 1:04:32.760
<v Speaker 4>You know, we all went to school. We all learned

1:04:32.760 --> 1:04:34.200
<v Speaker 4>about lions and crows.

1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:35.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1:04:35.440 --> 1:04:39.840
<v Speaker 2>It's like the parable of the butterfly and the Tyrannosaurus rex,

1:04:40.040 --> 1:04:42.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, both of which swim deep in the ocean

1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:46.680
<v Speaker 2>in the Marianas Trench on the moon. It's his accurate

1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:47.560
<v Speaker 2>as what Bin's written.

1:04:48.120 --> 1:04:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, huh, it's good.

1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, how you feeling brody? Have I ever done that before? Yes?

1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:58.880
<v Speaker 3>I think I feel like shody.

1:04:59.040 --> 1:05:03.080
<v Speaker 4>Sure, I appreciate that he at least knows he needs

1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:05.200
<v Speaker 4>to get some good sentences into his books, so he

1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:09.120
<v Speaker 4>quotes other writers, even if he doesn't like necessarily interpret them.

1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:10.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, he's at least.

1:05:11.120 --> 1:05:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Got to pad this out with some token and Lewis

1:05:13.400 --> 1:05:14.360
<v Speaker 2>and Kipling.

1:05:14.040 --> 1:05:17.280
<v Speaker 3>Because I gotta keep people.

1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Notice that I can't write. Yeah, incredible good stuff.

1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:21.080
<v Speaker 3>Shout to him.

1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Co Do you want to plug anything?

1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:25.760
<v Speaker 3>Sure? Why not? Check out Some More News. It's our

1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:27.040
<v Speaker 3>weekly show.

1:05:27.280 --> 1:05:29.360
<v Speaker 4>I sat at a desk, I read the news and

1:05:29.520 --> 1:05:31.960
<v Speaker 4>talk about various topics. We also have a show called

1:05:31.960 --> 1:05:33.959
<v Speaker 4>even More News twice a week talks about more current

1:05:33.960 --> 1:05:35.320
<v Speaker 4>events in a more casual way.

1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:38.080
<v Speaker 3>And check out my band. It's called the Hot Shapes.

1:05:39.320 --> 1:05:44.720
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, check out Cody's band. Check out Cody, you know,

1:05:44.880 --> 1:05:47.919
<v Speaker 2>at like a bar or something. Mm hmm, be like, hey,

1:05:47.920 --> 1:05:48.560
<v Speaker 2>how's it going.

1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:51.800
<v Speaker 3>I'll be like good, Yeah, you want to drink? I'll

1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:54.959
<v Speaker 3>say yeah, don't do that. Yeah don't.

1:05:55.120 --> 1:05:57.919
<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't joke about the weird parasocial stuff because that'll happen.

1:05:58.000 --> 1:05:59.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh we don't want any of that.

1:06:00.200 --> 1:06:03.280
<v Speaker 2>But check out Cody's podcasts and the YouTube show, and

1:06:03.840 --> 1:06:06.280
<v Speaker 2>check out when we come back to Ben Shapiro's book,

1:06:06.280 --> 1:06:08.080
<v Speaker 2>which I'm sure We'll do at least one more.

1:06:07.880 --> 1:06:09.240
<v Speaker 3>Time before the US.

1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Well Gang. This has been behind the podcast of Bastards

1:06:15.160 --> 1:06:20.800
<v Speaker 2>about Shapiro beIN, good Night, and good Luck Bay.

1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:06:28.880 --> 1:06:32.160
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:35.520
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1:06:35.600 --> 1:06:38.760
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1:06:38.760 --> 1:06:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1:06:42.920 --> 1:06:46.600
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<v Speaker 1>at Behind the Bastards