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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it's behind the behind bastards podcasters Robert

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Speaker 2: Evans show that you're listening to. This was not a

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Speaker 2: good introduction.

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Speaker 3: Sophie Lichtman per show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we're doing.

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Speaker 2: You're making fun of me, Sophie, you're making fun of me,

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Speaker 2: laughing at me. Well, here to laugh at me more.

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Speaker 2: Cody Johnstone welcome, Yes, thank you so much, guest. Cody.

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Speaker 2: You are the host of news Comma Some More, a

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Speaker 2: podcast about news and also a YouTube show about news.

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Speaker 3: I'm great, are you? Ah?

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Speaker 2: No, no, everyone, no one's doing great. Come on, but

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Speaker 2: you gotta be pleasant, right. I was at a friend's

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Speaker 2: wedding the other week. He's like, how you doing? I

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Speaker 2: mean right now?

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Speaker 3: Fine in general?

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Speaker 4: Bad open bar uh huh good yeah outside maybe I

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Speaker 4: don't know. Yeah, I'm fine. We're all doing our best.

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Speaker 4: Things are weird and happening, and they're happening quickly and suddenly.

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Speaker 3: In many ways they are.

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Speaker 2: They're happening here. You could say the things that are

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Speaker 2: happening I could do. And one of the people who's

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Speaker 2: happening here is a friend of VARs you and me, Cody,

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Speaker 2: a friend of the Pods, a friend of our mutual

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Speaker 2: friend who we all miss right now. Katie stole by Katie.

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Speaker 2: Ben Shapiro, our buddy, our good comrade and.

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Speaker 3: Co my band mate.

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Speaker 2: He's my band Yeah yeah, you and Benefit rocking out,

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Speaker 2: Katie and you and I and also Sophie did a

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Speaker 2: long series of podcast episodes. We went through the entirety

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Speaker 2: of Ben Shapiro's unbelievably shoddy fiction novel. I mean, just

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Speaker 2: some of the absolute worst pros I think either of

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Speaker 2: us has ever encountered.

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Speaker 3: Real bad.

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Speaker 2: It was bad enough that Ben is not written another

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Speaker 2: fiction novel since the rest of my knowledge.

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Speaker 4: Here's the thing. I'm really upset. He announced he's had

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Speaker 4: this new book out. But I remember, like a year

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Speaker 4: or two ago, a few years ago, he said he

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Speaker 4: was working on a science fiction book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to read that.

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Speaker 3: Fucker. I want that, But don't do that. I don't

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Speaker 3: need your like.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's like a year of free content for me, Ben,

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Speaker 2: get it out.

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Speaker 3: Give me the juice. Man.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm late on my novel, Ben, but come on,

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Speaker 2: you don't have a real job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it off. Take time off.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god. But we are doing a Ben Shapiro

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Speaker 2: book episode because on September second of this year, he

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Speaker 2: published his latest nonfiction novel, Lions and Scavengers, The True

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Speaker 2: Story of America and her Critics. That's in her critics

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Speaker 2: is yah parentheses at the very bottom and tiny deck.

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Speaker 4: This is a fascinating choice for him. It seems like, so,

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Speaker 4: you know, like the Abundance book, we don't need to

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Speaker 4: talk about abundance or whatever, but that book, hm hmmm,

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Speaker 4: Firestorm on the Internet seem to be sort of written

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Speaker 4: in a way that was intending for like, well, and

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Speaker 4: then Kamala Harris will be the president and then this

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Speaker 4: book will come out. That didn't happen, and so it's

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Speaker 4: a the reaction was different. It's a whole other conversation

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Speaker 4: sort of happening.

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Speaker 2: It's like sitting down with a friend to like tell

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Speaker 2: them that you're worried about like dental health while they're

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Speaker 2: actively bleeding out from arterial wound and you're like, yes,

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Speaker 2: I just really think you need to floss more, and oh, sorry,

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Speaker 2: you spurred it a little bit of that arterial blood

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Speaker 2: right on my neck here.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, maybe rip the pages out of that book

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Speaker 4: and use them to like stop depleting or something. And

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Speaker 4: this book seems very like twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen coded.

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Speaker 4: It's like, what are you doing like doing this history

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Speaker 4: stuff again? Like what did the Trump administration do the

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Speaker 4: first time with their like projects about like what the

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Speaker 4: real history is, like how slavery didn't happen or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a weird book.

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Speaker 4: I guess to come out now in my opinion, but

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Speaker 4: I haven't read it, so maybe it's actually perfect for

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Speaker 4: this moment.

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Speaker 3: You know what it is.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you right now. We'll talk about this more.

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Speaker 2: Ben Shapiro desperately wishes.

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Speaker 3: He were C. S.

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Speaker 2: Lewis, And you know, C. S Lewis talked about politics,

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Speaker 2: but in like a broader kind of philosophical sense, and

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Speaker 2: he was like a good writer, you know, and Ben

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Speaker 2: is not. And Ben is also obsessed with like petty

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Speaker 2: culture war grievances and shit.

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Speaker 3: Ben Shapiro, Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 2: This is him trying to like really establish himself as

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Speaker 2: a C. S. Lewis type thinker. And it's not good.

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Speaker 2: That's by short. But but we'll go through it because

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Speaker 2: I have actually quite a lot to say about. Most

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Speaker 2: of the introduction to this book is part one, So Cody,

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Speaker 2: you and I may be back repeatedly talking more about

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Speaker 2: this fair enough, so the five Yeah, yeah, yeah, well

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Speaker 2: we haven't We're not even getting through all of that.

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Speaker 2: But I think you will also get the gist of

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Speaker 2: his argument from this, because Ben being Ben, most of

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Speaker 2: this book is him just kind of repeating himself, right, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It opens with an inscription. This is like the dedication

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Speaker 2: to the book to the lions. The l is capitalized,

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Speaker 2: the hunter's warriors and weavers, each of those words is capitalized.

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Speaker 2: Who build, defend, and maintain the greatest civilization and the

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Speaker 2: history of mankind. Against the scavengers. The s is capitalized.

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Speaker 2: Who would destroy that civilization from within?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: And that's essentially the thesis of the book, right, is

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Speaker 2: that you've got lions and scavengers. That's all of society.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's his whole thing.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to find out what he thinks is

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Speaker 4: a lion, what he thinks is a scavenger.

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Speaker 2: And what's funny here is, first off, I know this

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Speaker 2: is petty, but I can't get over it, is that

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Speaker 2: we're just this whole book, the basic premise of this

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Speaker 2: and he's trying to be kind of artistic by framing

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Speaker 2: it as lions and scavengers, you know, like he's trying

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Speaker 2: to be kind of philosophical, but his entire underpinning of

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Speaker 2: that attempt is based on a wild factual inaccuracy about lions.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Like out the gate, None of this is

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Speaker 2: right because lions and scavengers aren't separate things. And I'm

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Speaker 2: going to quote very quickly from an article on Krueger Park,

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Speaker 2: which is a wildlife national park in South Africa. Another

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Speaker 2: lion fact not commonly appreciated is that lions are not

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Speaker 2: just hunters but scavengers as well, often chasing smaller predators

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Speaker 2: like cheetah off their kills. In some instances, up to

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Speaker 2: fifty percent of a lion's diet can come from scavenging

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Speaker 2: rather than hunting life prey. Lions are scavengers as much

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Speaker 2: as they are hunters, sometimes.

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Speaker 4: More, sometimes more. I mean, you imagine he gets most

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Speaker 4: of his information from the lion King, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, this is all of his knowledge about lions

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Speaker 2: is from what he remembers of the lion King and

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Speaker 2: the fact that lions look impressive.

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Speaker 3: Yes exactly.

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Speaker 2: But there is something deeply meaningful about the whole root

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Speaker 2: of his ideological argument here is that you've got lions,

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Speaker 2: which are conservatives, right, which are the people who build

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Speaker 2: culture and the people who like make everything good, right,

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Speaker 2: and they're creators, you know, they do the hard work

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Speaker 2: of forging civilization. And then there's scavengers who just want

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Speaker 2: to tear everything down and they're just mooching and stealing

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Speaker 2: and attacking from within this thing that they didn't make.

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Speaker 2: And of course the reality is that like, well, lions

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Speaker 2: not only do they scavenge, but most of their scavenging

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Speaker 2: is them stealing kills from animals that did the actual hunting,

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Speaker 2: like hyenas and cheetahs, right like, and then taking credit

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Speaker 2: for it. Yeah. Interesting, Interesting, He's just a writer. He's

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Speaker 2: a bad writer. He's a bad thinker.

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Speaker 4: Also, right, he couldn't stretch his like analogy past the

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Speaker 4: and no, because if you're gonna say lions, that's a

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Speaker 4: specific animal, and then you're zooming out to say scavengers,

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Speaker 4: say vultures, Like pick a scavenger to like lay like

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Speaker 4: lions and vultures whatever. But like it's just you're you're

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Speaker 4: being specific with the first one and then vague like

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Speaker 4: you're using a category for the second.

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Speaker 2: And this is sloppy, it's also evidence of like this

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Speaker 2: thing that you see a lot with Ben and with

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Speaker 2: other conservatives, where it's like, well, you've never done anything

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Speaker 2: in the world, right, Like you don't know anything about

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Speaker 2: survival in the wilderness. If you did, you'd know that, Like,

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Speaker 2: hunting is a bad way to survive. Very few animals

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Speaker 2: live just by hunting because it's hard and it burns

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Speaker 2: a lot of calories. Like a person who taught me

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Speaker 2: how to hunt is a great outdoors person, right, extremely skilled,

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Speaker 2: and they will admit like, if they had to survive

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Speaker 2: on their own, ninety percent of their calories would be

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Speaker 2: foraging and trapping because hunting is wildly inefficient. And if

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Speaker 2: you can take a killed that someone else made or

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Speaker 2: find something dead, that just works a lot better. It's

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Speaker 2: what almost every animal prefers to.

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Speaker 3: Do, right, survive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just keeps you alive better. Anyway. The introduction

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Speaker 2: chapter opens and it's just titled London, England. And this

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Speaker 2: is how it starts. A tension lies at the core

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Speaker 2: of our being. It royals us. It turns our guts,

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Speaker 2: it boils our brains. The tension lies between two opposing fours.

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Speaker 2: Those forces beat within every man's breast. They fight for

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Speaker 2: supremacy within every civilization. One must triumph and one must fall.

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Speaker 2: The spirit of the lion, the spirit of the scavenger. Again,

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Speaker 2: lions are scavengers.

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Speaker 4: Lines are scavengers. The scavengers. There are specific animals you

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Speaker 4: can choose.

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Speaker 2: It's actually very efficient, it's smart.

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Speaker 3: Like also brain's boiling.

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Speaker 2: I say that as a hunter and a scavenger, I

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Speaker 2: pick up roadkill and I hunt. I also raise and

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Speaker 2: slaughter animals. All of these things are ways to get calories.

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Speaker 2: Beyond that, beyond him getting lion facts.

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Speaker 3: Beyond like the premise of the analogy wants to.

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Speaker 2: Use right, the fundamental premise of this is just based

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Speaker 2: on a complete misunderstanding of wildlife. Beyond that, his attempt

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Speaker 2: to apply a moral line to something fundamentally immoral, which

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Speaker 2: is how different creatures take in their calories, shows a

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Speaker 2: very conservative ignorance towards basic biological reality, which is what

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to stand up for. You know, scavenging for

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Speaker 2: food is not in anywhere worse than hunting for it.

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Speaker 2: Every great predator, like the Trannosaurus Rex, paleontologists generally agree,

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Speaker 2: were scavengers at least an equal measure to hunters right,

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Speaker 2: because it's just not a great way to survive just hunting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah we can, yeah, exactly, you get what you can't.

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Speaker 3: Unless you're like a society.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right, and then you could just go to a

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Speaker 2: grocery store.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like Ben does pay someone to do your shopping

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Speaker 2: for you. You know, because you soft little hands, You're

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Speaker 2: not going to go skin an animal. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to do that, Ben Shapiro.

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Speaker 3: Hey, we don't know.

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Speaker 2: You know, the cowboy hat chafes your head when you

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Speaker 2: try to wear it outside.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, got a bunch of splinters when he held up

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Speaker 4: that two by four outside.

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Speaker 2: That two by four. You know, he's still tired from that.

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Speaker 2: He's still getting the splinters out of his hands from that.

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Speaker 2: One day he went to home depot to buy a

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Speaker 2: single piece of wood.

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Speaker 3: You gotta go scavenger for more calories to get back

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Speaker 3: to zero. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, After this, we get a dramatic opening about how

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Speaker 2: Ben is writing this introduction in London, which quote has

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Speaker 2: been conquered by the scavengers. Who is he defining as scavengers?

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Speaker 4: You ask code? Theoretically, I don't ask that because I

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Speaker 4: know the answer to that. But you can go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pro Palestine, anti genocide protesters who were

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Speaker 2: marching through the city. Ben Wright's quote, hundreds of thousand

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Speaker 2: strong marching. They're banners unfurled, the banners of terrorist groups

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Speaker 2: and communists and of transgender activists gathered together to revolt

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Speaker 2: against the civilization that has given them their rights and

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Speaker 2: their prosperity and their power. And you know, he's writing

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Speaker 2: about protest against the Israeli government's actions in Gaza, which

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Speaker 2: he defines as protests supporting Hamas and the October seventh attacks.

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Speaker 2: And obviously you can find people who had Hamas flags.

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Speaker 2: There were people cheering on the October seventh attacks. That's

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Speaker 2: a thing that happened, But that's not the primary reason

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Speaker 2: there were protests. The primary reason they are a protest.

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Speaker 2: And what most people is the genocide is.

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Speaker 3: All the death, what the UN just admitted it was.

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Speaker 3: It's what the un just like.

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Speaker 4: It's just that is so kind of course he's doing that,

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Speaker 4: but also like actually been they're not trying to like

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Speaker 4: rail against or like destroy the society that like built everything.

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Speaker 3: If they're trying to participate in that society.

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Speaker 2: They're participating in it by speaking and by trying to

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Speaker 2: speak to power and make their voices heard. Also, the

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Speaker 2: civilization didn't give them their rights. They had to take

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Speaker 2: their rights, or their predecessors did via protest and violence. Sometimes,

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Speaker 2: because societies don't just give people rights because they're nice,

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Speaker 2: those rights are fought for.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, like a lion, unlike these people who are

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Speaker 3: fighting for it like scavengers right now.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, in standard Shapiro fashion, he ignores the critiques these

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Speaker 2: marchers have of the mass slaughter of civilians by a

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Speaker 2: modern first World military in favor of raging at people

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Speaker 2: who march around with flags and post on social media.

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Speaker 2: He cites one commentator from Twitter who wrote after October seventh,

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Speaker 2: what did y'all think decolonization meant? In response to those

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Speaker 2: attacks by hamas quote. Her comment received nearly one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand likes. Wow, and it spoke to the very core

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Speaker 2: of the scavengers. All in humanity against the lions is justified.

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Speaker 2: And this is just classic conservatism, not just been Shapiro

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Speaker 2: of Like this person made a dumb post that's obviously

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Speaker 2: the same as tens of thousands of people getting murdered

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Speaker 2: from air strikes and starve to death. These are equivalent

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand likes to a bad post, equal to

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Speaker 2: the murder of thousands of equal to fucking babies being incinerated,

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Speaker 2: all equivalent.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think of the likes.

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Speaker 4: I'm I'm actually I need to hold the moment of

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Speaker 4: silence for the likes, real quick, for the likes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, really, that's thank you, Cody. We sometimes forget the

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Speaker 2: real victims here.

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Speaker 3: I think we do. I think we do.

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Speaker 4: I also I am dreading how many fucking times he's

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Speaker 4: going to use the words lions and scavengers.

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Speaker 2: It's so much, it's such bad right already, I'm just like, God,

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Speaker 2: stop saying this. C. S. Lewis would fucking like pile

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Speaker 2: drive him in frustration at how badly this is written.

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Speaker 3: At least name the lion like.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not particularly a C. S. Lewis stand but

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Speaker 2: the man knew how to put together a sentence right like,

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Speaker 2: and he understood how to like not make my head

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Speaker 2: hurt while reading a book repeatedly because.

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Speaker 4: Or in Ben's words, you're boiling brain. Yeah, exactly, thank

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Speaker 4: you boiling your brain in London. But we do see

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Speaker 4: here kind of the ultimate reason for the framing of

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Speaker 4: this book is Rayleigh's are a lions, Palestinians, and people

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Speaker 4: angry at their murder are scavengers. There's a particular irony

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Speaker 4: in his horror at this scavenger gathering and quote the

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Speaker 4: beating heart of what was once the center of Western civilization,

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Speaker 4: because London was only the center of Western civilization due

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Speaker 4: to a vast centuries long program of what can only

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Speaker 4: be described as scavenging theft on a grand scale against

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Speaker 4: an impossibly vast chunk of the globe. They stole from

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Speaker 4: the rest of the world. That's what emperialism is. They

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Speaker 4: stole from India, they stole everywhere they could.

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Speaker 2: They built it to themselves shut aside. They start thirty

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Speaker 2: million people in Bengal. They wiped out entire ethnic groups,

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Speaker 2: you know, to get spices.

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Speaker 3: Like it's it, Okay, you're making a really hard for

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Speaker 3: me to say, this is building. Yeah, but I'm gonna try.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yes, the Obritzar massacre clear example of building they're built.

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Speaker 3: They build.

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Speaker 4: Okay, impossible, now you're yeah, it made a good point.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's all like this whole framing just goes

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Speaker 4: back to that fucking tweet from like right twenty five

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Speaker 4: or fifteen years ago. Israelis like to build Arabs, like

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Speaker 4: to bomb crap and live in open sewage precise. It's

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Speaker 4: just that, which he apologized for, by the way, and

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Speaker 4: said it was stupid.

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Speaker 3: He said it was a stupid tweet.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about another thing that he apologized for in

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Speaker 2: a little bit here, Cody.

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Speaker 3: But yes, thank you for then you write a whole

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Speaker 3: book about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so bin Express's disbelief the existence of groups like

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Speaker 2: Queers for Palestine, which he says was formed quote and

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Speaker 2: solidarity with people who would throw queers off buildings at

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Speaker 2: the first available opportunity if given half a chance. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: his colleague Matt Walsh, in the immediate wake of Charlie

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Speaker 2: Kirk's assassination, posted this, this was left wing LGBT terrorism.

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Speaker 2: There was never in much doubt, is none at all.

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Speaker 2: All left wing terror networks must be crushed. All of

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Speaker 2: the terrorists and their helpers and funders must be arrested,

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Speaker 2: prosecuted and put to death. Yeah, these Palestinians want to

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Speaker 2: kill queer people, unlike Ben Shapiro and his allies at

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Speaker 2: the Daily Wire who want.

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Speaker 3: Matt Hamas Walsh.

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Speaker 2: Who LGBT terrorists to death, which I'm sure doesn't include

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Speaker 2: everyone who's a YVT, just you know whoever Matt Walsh

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Speaker 2: thinks is there very clear?

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Speaker 3: I mean, now it's associating with anybody right right and.

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Speaker 2: People who associate with them of course, and who fund them,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe.

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Speaker 3: In ways that we still don't know, we still but

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Speaker 3: but surely they do.

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Speaker 2: It's not important to have that all ironed out right now.

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Speaker 4: There are other tweets fro Matt Walsh. Obviously that's horrific.

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Speaker 4: What a horrible, fucking terrible person.

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Speaker 2: He's a bad guy.

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Speaker 4: He specifically has also been basically calling for unity amongst

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Speaker 4: all the factions on the right in order to carry

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Speaker 4: out what he's talking about, crushing the left and like right,

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Speaker 4: rounding up people's all the stuff he's talking about in

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Speaker 4: public executions I believe he's talking about as well.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean Charlie Kirk had talked about

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Speaker 2: public executions too, like his belief that that's something we

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Speaker 2: need to bring in.

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Speaker 4: Age twelve I think is the appropriate age for watching that.

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Speaker 4: According to them, So he's calling for uniting all the

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Speaker 4: right wing factions in order to do this, so which

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess a good phrase instead would be

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Speaker 4: to unite the right. So sure, maybe he's actually calling

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Speaker 4: to unite with people who actually would want to do

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Speaker 4: the same thing. To Ben, like, if you're calling to

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Speaker 4: unite the right in order to do this, then you're

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Speaker 4: calling to unite very very far right, sorry to say,

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Speaker 4: like neo Nazis who would want to kill the Jewish

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Speaker 4: people who are in the coalition, much like Ben is

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Speaker 4: saying that Hamas wants to do to gay people. Just

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Speaker 4: seems like I don't think they understand what they're saying

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Speaker 4: or recognize these inconsistencies or consistencies to them, who knows.

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Speaker 2: And they don't care, of course, none of that. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter, like to them, what matters is crushing their enemies, right,

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Speaker 2: Like the fact that they aren't logically consistent is about power.

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Speaker 2: It always has been, you know. And there's a lot

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Speaker 2: that's disingenuous about this framing, though, and it's worth getting

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Speaker 2: into that. One thing is that as of May twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, per UNICEF Regional Director Edward Bigbetter, more than

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Speaker 2: fifty thousand children have been killed or injured by Israel

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Speaker 2: in the Gaza strip. These kids had no power or

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Speaker 2: frankly desire to throw anyone off of buildings.

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Speaker 3: Right, like, but they might one day.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can find people who are delusional in

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Speaker 2: any group. But I know a lot of queers who

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Speaker 2: are angry about what's being done in Palestine. They're not

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Speaker 2: laboring under a misapprehension that Hamas is woke. They're angry

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Speaker 2: that kids and women and children have nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with Hamas or any other arm group are being murdered.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're angry about, because it's bad.

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Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, it's very obvious that that's the situation.

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Speaker 3: But again, they don't.

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Speaker 2: Care if there's a mass shooting at a church that

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Speaker 2: believes things I don't. Like, I'm not not going to

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Speaker 2: be angry about the mass shooting because the pastor of

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Speaker 2: the church said something shitty and like that doesn't make

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Speaker 2: it okay that kids got shot.

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Speaker 4: Do you understand that, Like, yeah, those kids are massacred,

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Speaker 4: Like it's horrific.

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Speaker 2: The Queers for Palaestinan people aren't marching in the street

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Speaker 2: because they aspire to make their civilization identical to how

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Speaker 2: the Gaza strip is run. Their marching because they're angry

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Speaker 2: that civilians are being killed, right and they understand rightfully

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Speaker 2: that the average person in the Gaza strip has absolutely

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Speaker 2: no control over what fucking Hamas does.

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Speaker 4: You can call those things horrific crimes against humanity and

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Speaker 4: not have to be like, but also, I don't want

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Speaker 4: to do Hamas stuff here because they have.

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Speaker 2: Like It's like, are you bummed out when you read

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Speaker 2: about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I can be bummed out about that. I fucking talked

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Speaker 2: to a survivor of the Hiroshima bombing. She was like

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Speaker 2: seven when it happened. She's not responsible for the Empire,

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Speaker 2: like me being bummed about US nuking Japan. Doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: I'm pretending the Empire of Japan was a good society.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like it's just bad to kill kids.

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Speaker 4: Their crime was being born in a certain place at

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Speaker 4: a certain time, and that's actually not a crime exactly.

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Speaker 2: It certainly shouldn't be treated like one. Right again, are

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Speaker 2: there assholes in any mass movement who try to hijack

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Speaker 2: the momentum of a larger number of people to push

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Speaker 2: their own fucked up bullshit, including like uncritical worship of

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Speaker 2: violence used by a group. Sure, and Ben Shapiro knows

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Speaker 2: full well what it's like to uncritically endorse violence against civilians.

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Speaker 2: In two thousand and two, he wrote an article stating

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Speaker 2: that he wasn't the least bit concerned about civilian casualties

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan or the West Bank, and the insinuation was

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Speaker 2: that this extended generally to the War on Terror. He

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Speaker 2: expressed a belief that the life of a single American

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Speaker 2: soldier mattered more than the life of any number of

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Speaker 2: Afghan civilians, and while he apologized for this article being

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Speaker 2: badly written, later the next year, he wrote an article

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Speaker 2: for town Hall in which he argued in favor of

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Speaker 2: allowing Israel to quote transfer Palestinians and Israeli Arabs from

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Speaker 2: Judea Samari, yeah, Gaza and is real proper. That's just

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Speaker 2: an ethnic cleansing.

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Speaker 4: Like transfer is not a dirty word. I think is

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Speaker 4: the title of that piece. That's ethnic cleansing.

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Speaker 2: Fuck it is raally air. They're like citizens, you realize that, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I guess it doesn't matter because they're not Jewish.

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Speaker 4: I guess I feel like he only really apologized for

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Speaker 4: like like you're saying it being poorly written, which Ben

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Speaker 4: apologized for everything you've.

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Speaker 3: Ever written, everything he does, but not the actual argument.

439
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 3: I don't think.

440
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 4: I don't think he's actually he ever actually said like

441
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 4: and I don't think we should be doing this, or

442
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 4: he did and then changed his mind back.

443
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think both of those things have happened.

444
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 3: Now.

445
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: During this rant, ben first starts referring to and again

446
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: going sorry because we've gone off on a tangent. This

447
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 2: rant is about the protests last year in London against

448
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: the Genizide and Gaza. During this rant, beIN first starts

449
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: referring to the Lions collectively as the Pride with a

450
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 2: capital P, in order to differentiate from the so called

451
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: Scavengers as a group. He accuses scavengers of being willing

452
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 2: to do quote anything to tear down the Pride. This

453
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: is not mere anti semitism. Anti Semitism is an age

454
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 2: old hatred rooted in a conspiracy theory. It takes many

455
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: forms and has countless victims. This is something different. It

456
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 2: is a united coalitional hatred of the West. Now, this

457
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: is actually where I come closest to agreeing with Shapiro

458
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 2: in a certain sense, because the primary motivating factor of

459
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 2: these protests is not anti Semitism there been, and I

460
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 2: agree one factor at play within many people protesting against

461
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 2: Israel's actions here is a coalitional hatred of what Beend

462
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: defines as the West. But while he tries to describe

463
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: this as an unreasoning hatred of Western civilization, it's very

464
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: clearly a hatred of what Western governments do to specific

465
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: groups of people. Yeah, exactly right, like the decades of

466
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: support for Israel's continuing actions that have been genocidal and

467
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: quasigenicidal for quite some time.

468
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 4: He concently does this, I mean with many different topics

469
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 4: and issues, but he's conflating I mean, basic criticism of actions,

470
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 4: like it's not it's not saying like these values that

471
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 4: you pretend to have are evil. It's not about like

472
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 4: Western values or anything like that. It's about specific actions

473
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 4: being taken that should be able to be criticized without

474
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 4: you saying like, so you hate everything we've ever done

475
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 4: and everything we believe in. Well, if it's this, then yeah,

476
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 4: I guess that's not what is actually being said or claimed.

477
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 2: Right, And we will continue and get to ben talking

478
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: about j. R. R. Tolkien, which I am excited to

479
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: chat with you about, Cody, But first let's have some

480
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 2: ads and we're back. So, after introducing this protest and

481
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 2: starting his Scavengers and the Pride, you know, discourse, been

482
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: pivots to discussing the Lord of the Rings. And it

483
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: becomes clear here that that opening sort of vignette about

484
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands strong marching their banners unfurled, this was

485
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: him pull from Tolkien describing.

486
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 3: Howards barbarians at the gates at the Armies.

487
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 2: Of War marching on minister is right. Yes, yeah, he's

488
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: not like fly. It's obvious what he's doing. And he

489
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: gets very direct here. He literally calls the quote Cords

490
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: of Mordor stand ins for the Nazis and their allies. Now,

491
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: Tolkien himself would have rejected been claiming this wholeheartedly. He

492
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: always rejected. He hated it when people like accused the

493
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings of being rooted in real history

494
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: and his World War One experiences. And I do tend

495
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: to be in the camp of like, well, obviously they

496
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: were kind of both World War One and World War

497
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: Two influenced what you were writing about, Like, I'm sorry, yeah, I.

498
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: Just have influenced your art in many ways.

499
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now that said Lord of the Rings in case

500
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: you didn't know, was written mostly between nineteen thirty seven

501
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: and nineteen forty nine trilogy that was like the bulk

502
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: of the writing. It wasn't published until the fifties, but

503
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: that's when he was like doing most of his writing

504
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 2: and editing. And I would agree with Ben that, like,

505
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: there's clear nearly some World War Two in the Lord

506
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: of the Rings, but it's also not accurate to say

507
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: the Hordes of Mortar are just stand ins for the

508
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: Nazis and their allies. That's not really true. And I

509
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: think it's worth discussing J. R. R. Tolkien's personal politics

510
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: here because like most peoples, they are complex and not

511
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: entirely consistent and sometimes incoherent. For an example, Tolkien on

512
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: a number of occasions described himself as an anarchist and

513
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: describe himself as an anarchist in ways that are like

514
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: relatively recognizable to modern day anarchists. He talked about his

515
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: hatred of power. He expressed a disgust for industrialism that

516
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: is very much in line with how some monarcho primitivists

517
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: talk today. Right, not entirely so, but his fundamental dissection

518
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: of like why he was an anarchist is very much

519
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 2: like relevant to modern day anarchists. He thought people were

520
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: not fit to hold power over people. Right, this is

521
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 2: an important belief, the ring of power, right, never heard

522
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 2: that is effectively an object in which all of like

523
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: political power, all power of the state is craving sourcial

524
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: line to it, right like, that's it's not super subtle. Right, Yeah,

525
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: there's certainly a reading of the Lord of the Rings

526
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: that's very much anarchist. And at the same time, Tolkien

527
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,239
Speaker 2: was for example, not an uncritical but a supporter of

528
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: the Franco regime during the Spanish Civil War, largely because

529
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: he was horrified at the killings and what he saw

530
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: as the unjustified murders of nuns and priests and whatnot

531
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 2: by in some cases anarchists.

532
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 3: Right.

533
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: And so again this is not like most people. Jared

534
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: Tolkien's political beliefs were not entirely cohero or consistent.

535
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: Little bit yes, contextual.

536
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: However, what I can say is that Jared Tolkien was

537
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: not at all in alignment with Ben Shapiro's politics and

538
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: would have been disgusted by them. Tolkien was a firm

539
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: anti Nazi. He was also a very anti Stalin, but

540
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: he was regularly critical of conservative icon Winston Churchill, who

541
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: he described as looking like the biggest Ruffian and photographs

542
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: from the Tehran conference right so he he has said, basically,

543
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 2: standing next to fucking Joseph Stalin, Winston Churchill looks like

544
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: a scumbag like oh, which is not something Ben Shapiro

545
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 2: would ever say. I found a summary of a letter

546
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: that Tolkien sent his son Christopher into Scember of nineteen

547
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: forty three that gives you an idea of how little

548
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: Tolkien's personal politics graft on the Ben's ideological schema. Tolkien

549
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: lamented that the globe was getting smaller, duller in flatter,

550
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: foreseeing American sanitation, moral pep feminism, and mass production introduced everywhere,

551
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: which would at least cut down travel. Colonel Knox said

552
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 2: that one eighth of the world spoke English, which Tolkien

553
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: called a damn shame. He called for the Curse of

554
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: Babbel to strike all tongues and considered refusing to speak

555
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: anything but Old Mercian. Seriously. Tolkien found a Merrow cosmopolitanism terrifying.

556
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: He was unsure if victory would be much better for

557
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: the world as a whole. This was the sentiment of

558
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: a lot of folk, but it indicated no lack of patriotism.

559
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: Tolkien loved England, but not Great Britain and certainly not

560
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: the British Commonwealth. But were he younger, Tolkien figured he

561
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: would be grousing in the military, willing to go to

562
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: the bitter end, and hoping that things might turn out

563
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 2: better for England again you know you can find. Tolkien

564
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: had some issues with like feminism, like or what he

565
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: saw his feminism, but he also he hated like American capitalism.

566
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: He was disgusted by like advertisements. He was disgusted by

567
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: the culture of consumption, and he was disgusted by the

568
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: flattening of culture by the idea that everyone would need

569
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 2: to speak you know, English, by the idea that American

570
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: culture would flatten the world right. He found this personally

571
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 2: horrifying and disgusting, which is like the opposite of Ben's politics.

572
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: And he was not pro the British Empire. He was

573
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: in fact deeply critical of the British Empire for the

574
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: reasons established in the letter above. He hated the flattening

575
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: of cultures around the globe under burgeoning capitalism, and was

576
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: disgusted by the domination of peoples around the world by

577
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: foreign powers. The beliefs he most consistently expressed throughout his

578
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: adult life. We were sort of anti capitalist, anti industrial

579
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: real sentiment based around a hatred of pollution and the

580
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: destruction of the natural world. But he was clear in

581
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: his letters to his son and others that he saw

582
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: America and Americanism as the central culprits in this I.

583
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 4: Mean, that's what Mordor was basically modeled after, right, like

584
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 4: and like that.

585
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, like there's Germany in there too, yeah.

586
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like the orcs like sprouting up from the

587
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 4: ground and like destroying the planet and all that stuff

588
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 4: that we apparently love now.

589
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, like like there's some Germany in Mordar, but there's

590
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: more than a little of the United States there too,

591
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: and quite frankly, more than a little Great Britain. You know,

592
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: he was not because he was looking at the industrialization

593
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: that had happened in his own country too. This is

594
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: something that horrified him.

595
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: Right.

596
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: If Tolkien were somehow to have survived to the present

597
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: day and gotten involved in like a film version of

598
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: The Lord of the Rings and had any choice in

599
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: casting a voice actor for surn I wouldn't be surprised

600
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: if he wound up sounding like a Californian.

601
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: Right, that's a little.

602
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: Bit, a little bit, but like he expresses in line

603
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: with that, right, like yeah, I can tell you one

604
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: thing that conservatives are on about in this country that

605
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: he would have hated is the idea that like everyone

606
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: needs to speak English. What the fuck are you talking about?

607
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: Like?

608
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: Yes, anyway, After quoting a passage from Return of the

609
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: King describing the armies of Mortal marching on Minace tireth Bin,

610
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: Shapiro writes, so it goes today in London the lions

611
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: are gone, and without the spirit of the lion, our

612
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: civilization collapses. What is the spirit of the lion? The

613
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: spirit of her success, of responsibility, of duty. Now I

614
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: should note here Godi lions sleep up to eighteen hours

615
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: a day. They have intensely matrilineal family group. The women

616
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: run and like are in charge as a general rule

617
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: in lion society. And of course, as I mentioned earlier,

618
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: they steal in scavenge food regularly from kills made by

619
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: better but physically weaker predators like hyenas. I know it's

620
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: probably silly for me to keep returning to the builders

621
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: and know a goddamn thing about lions. Well, but paragraphs

622
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: like this drive me fucking crazy, Cody. The lion is

623
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: a hunter, creative, audacious, innovative. He bens the world to

624
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: his will. He forges new paths and crafts new solutions.

625
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: When faced with a problem, the lion does not complain

626
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: about the unfairness of life. He seeks an answer. The

627
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: lion is bold and persistent. Failure does not unnerve him.

628
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: It teaches him. The lion knows that boldness of purpose

629
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: and willingness to undergo risk are the driving forces of

630
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: any successful civilization. He believes, in the words of Proverbs,

631
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: where there is no vision, the people perish.

632
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 3: He's really stretching this really or really really far.

633
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: Let's avoid the biological critiques here. If we're just talking

634
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: about conservatives, the opposite of what you do is find

635
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: new solutions to problems or forge new paths. You're violently

636
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: offended by the idea of forging new paths and new solutions.

637
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: Novelty disgusts you. Ben Shapiro, You're a arch conservative.

638
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 4: Observatives. There's one bit also about like they don't whine.

639
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: I know that's not what Oh my.

640
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: God, Yes, Yeah, No, he's saying that they don't complain.

641
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: The lion is complain about the unfairness of life. That's

642
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: literally your job, bit.

643
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: Buddy, that's every conservative's job. That is the only way

644
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: you've ever made money's job.

645
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 4: He's constantly talking about everything is unfair to him specifically.

646
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's just you're got rich complaining, Ben, that's what

647
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 2: you do for a living business model.

648
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, complain and then sell leftist tears mugs. Right, what

649
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 4: are you talking about, lion?

650
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: It's absurd. Yeah, I think there's also Ezra Klein did

651
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 3: an interview with Ben.

652
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 4: Uh oh crazy, Yeah, not you know whatever, But like

653
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 4: Ben's like talking about like lions, and he's like yeah,

654
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: and then you know, they build the social fabric and

655
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: all this kind of stuff. Pump's entire project is to

656
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 4: tear down the social fabric. That's not the lion that

657
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: you're talking about. Literally, in twenty nineteen, Ben was on

658
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: like Bill Maher or something and he's like, yeah, I

659
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: didn't vote for Trump in twenty sixteen because I didn't

660
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 4: want to break the social fabric, but he did, so

661
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 4: now I'm going to vote for him because he's already

662
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 4: broken the social fabric like a scavenger maybe.

663
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it's just.

664
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: The whole thing. It's just like not, it's just a mess.

665
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mess, and it's like ultimately been. I know,

666
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: you believe in things to be entirely fair. I can

667
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: think of it one time in his life where Ben

668
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: took a principal moral stand when he got really angry

669
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: at when he left.

670
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah for uh what was it Lewandowski?

671
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, was physically aggressive towards like a female employee.

672
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, he left. It was, uh, I've mentioned that

673
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: exact thing before he gets good.

674
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: Unlike a lot of these guys, Ben does believe in

675
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: some things, but his beliefs are very fluid, right, and

676
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: his morality is very fluid, you know.

677
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: I mean it's so inconsistent.

678
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 4: He became a political pundit when he's seventeen, like he's

679
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: got it, he's got to do that. He wasn't ready

680
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 4: for that, and he decided to do it. And he's

681
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 4: just constantly inconsistent. Everything he purports to like believe in

682
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 4: socially in the conservative sphere is not something like he lives.

683
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 4: He's like a theater guy with a doctor wife. He

684
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: stays home and like does podcasting and takes care of

685
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 4: the kids. Like that's not what he purports that people

686
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 4: should be doing now now.

687
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: Ben goes on to describe the lion as quote a

688
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: warrior who understands the spirit of the scavenger is always

689
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: abroad and that only strength can defend against it. Then

690
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: and again, the lions are the scavengers, like his need

691
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: to defend whatever.

692
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: Warriors are you like doing like now, they're like people

693
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 4: doing like whatever.

694
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: And lions aren't warriors. They don't have wars. They fight

695
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: because they're animals.

696
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 4: Exactly, Like why are you saying the lines are warriors?

697
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?

698
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: It's just not anyway.

699
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 3: Whatever.

700
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: Then he brings up another much better writer, C. S. Lewis,

701
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: claiming the lion lives by these words, and he's quoting C. S.

702
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: Lewis right that he's Ben says describes how the lion lives.

703
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the

704
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: form of every virtue at the testing point, which means,

705
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: at the point of highest reality, a chastity or honesty

706
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: or mercy which yields to danger will be chased, or

707
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: honest or merciful only on conditions. Now, that's a very

708
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: good point from C.

709
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: S Lewis.

710
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: I don't think Ben understands what this sentence means. It's

711
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: a good sentence, yeah, because I mean his whole being

712
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: disgusted and horrified at Trump and then voting for him

713
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: and supporting him because he won and pivoting like that's

714
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: that's him yielding to danger, a danger to his career,

715
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 2: a danger to maybe his personal health.

716
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 4: I mean, that's what the dentire GOP did. We all

717
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 4: saw it live in twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen.

718
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 3: It happened.

719
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: We saw Ted Cruz go out there and say vote

720
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 4: your conscience, and then like four weeks later he's sweaty

721
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 4: on the phone and being like, well for trap plays

722
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 4: right exactly.

723
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: And that's I agree with this CS Lewis quote. It's

724
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: a very well written and accurate point to make, and

725
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: Ben does not understand it at all because he is

726
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: incapable of living that way. Bin's entire career has been

727
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: built on taking money from the mega rich to push

728
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: a very specific kind of propaganda. He wouldn't no courage

729
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: if it bit him in the ass, and he has

730
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: never had to stand up for what's right in a

731
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: way that meant taking on any meaningful personal risk. Lewis's

732
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: quotation here is excoriating men like Ben Shapiro who lack

733
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: any meaningful virtue because they've never had to stand up

734
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: to any kind of danger. I would like to introduce

735
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 2: Ben to another quote, one that might be more relevant

736
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: to his own stated political aims and the aims of

737
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: the party he supports. This is from a nineteen forty

738
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 2: six letter C. S. Lewis sent to a professor friend

739
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: of his, collected in of Other Worlds, Essays and stories.

740
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: Quote.

741
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must

742
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than

743
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity

744
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: at some point be sated, and since he dimly knows

745
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: he is doing wrong, he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor,

746
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and

747
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: fear for the voice of Heaven, will torment us indefinitely.

748
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: Because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience,

749
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.

750
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 4: There it is I mean that's like, it's just like

751
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: now they're supporting a Robert Baron who is leading.

752
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 3: Who is backed by theocrat back to theocratic movement, like

753
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: we just he's talking about he's just doing both. It's

754
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: so c. S.

755
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: Lewis failed to continu to consider you know, Porko loss

756
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: dos right, But if.

757
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 4: You get a Robert Baron to lead your theocratic movement,

758
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 4: that's yeah, wild man.

759
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: There we go, speaking of Robert Barons. Cody, the sponsors

760
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: of this podcast, Yeah, get him, there we go, got

761
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: him so good, hell and we're back.

762
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: Snaps for Robert for the ad transition.

763
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sophie. Thank you Sophie, Thank you.

764
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: So Cody clapped.

765
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: I guess I just cared praise. I simply crave it.

766
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's my heroine also Heroin. No, I

767
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: don't do it Robert anymore.

768
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: No, I mean, according to R. F Jor, it helps

769
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 3: you focus in school, it does.

770
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: It makes it great easy to focus or at least

771
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 2: focus on being on Heroin.

772
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 3: Didn't know I was on Heroin until I did it.

773
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: Now it's all I can think about.

774
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: To be fair, the only heroine I've ever taken. I

775
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: licked off a guy's finger at a cafe in rural India.

776
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: That's fair.

777
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: It was a nice afternoon. So we're talking about C. S. Lewis,

778
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: who been Shapiro just.

779
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 3: Brought up not locking Heroin off of fingers.

780
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we're not, although I'd do it again, oh buddy,

781
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: Well maybe not in this vinsical era. Anyway. It's worth

782
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: noting that in nineteen fifty one, when Winston Churchill and

783
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: his Conservative Party retook the UK government, the Prime Minister's

784
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: Office wrote Lewis a letter offering to gift him an

785
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: honorary title Commander of the British Empire, and C. S.

786
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: Lewis declined, not because he wasn't Conservative. He was, that's

787
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 2: the most accurate box to put him into, but because

788
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: he was worried that if he accepted it would turn

789
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: him into a political figure, which would diminish him as

790
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: a writer into thinker, because well, again he would talk

791
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: philosophically about things that kind of were adjacent to politics.

792
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: He was kind of disgusted at the idea of being

793
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: like what Ben Shapiro is, you know, like of being

794
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: a political pundit propaganda, because he thought that was gross,

795
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: because it is.

796
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: You know, to put those sort of thoughts in your.

797
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: Work, as or Will would say, all art is propaganda, right,

798
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: But I don't think Lewis believed that.

799
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: You know, But there's a huge difference between doing your

800
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 4: art and expressing yourself in that way and being like, well,

801
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to start an organization that does propaganda for

802
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 4: the regime.

803
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that gets literally paid by oil billionaires to write

804
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: propaganda supporting oil billionaires.

805
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

806
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: And again Lewis would have obviously, maybe not obviously if

807
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: you don't know him. But Lewis would have fallen on

808
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: the more conservative acxis of politics, certainly more conservative than progressive.

809
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: But one of his most consistent stances was a sort

810
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: of disgusted political hacks and politicians. Now where Lewis would

811
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: align with Ben Shapiro is he had a strong belief

812
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 2: in natural law and in a sort of objective moral reality,

813
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: which he saw is necessary to accept in order to

814
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: be able to criticize groups like the Nazis. In other words,

815
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: Lewis wrote that if there was no right and like

816
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: a greater cosmic sense, by what standards could we judge

817
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: the Nazis as being wrong? And I don't agree with

818
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: Lewis in this I'm just describing his beliefs here. At

819
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: the same time, though, like his friend Tolkien, he expressed

820
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: horror at the two occupations that he worried were doom

821
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: mankind the magician, who quote sought power over nature and

822
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: the astrologer, who quote proclaimed nature's power over man. And

823
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: I want to quote from a write up on C. S.

824
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: Lewis dot com here. The former thought led many to

825
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: think man can do everything, the latter strongly suggested he

826
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 2: can do nothing. Lewis saw modern scientists as the sons

827
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 2: of the magician, who believe every ill in the world

828
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: can find a cure in science. From the astrologer came

829
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: the philosophical materialists, who believed man is nothing but a

830
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: slave to nature his animal instincts. And one thing we

831
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: see here is that despite having a belief in absolute morality,

832
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: Lewis tended to reject simple dichotomies like the one been

833
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: presents us with. In his Very Bad Book, he presented

834
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: readers with two archetypes in opposition, either of which would

835
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: doom mankind if worshiped or followed. Beyond reason, Lewis isn't

836
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: saying science is bad and he's not saying that, like

837
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: belief in the natural world is bad, or like kind

838
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: of yielding to nature's power is bad. But making either

839
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 2: of those like the kind of center of your being

840
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: is bad.

841
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 4: Right, Because he's also not saying there are two types

842
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 4: of people.

843
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: No, No, he's not saying other going too far in

844
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: either of these directions is bad. Yeah, And this is

845
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: something that Ben would never do. Ben glories in presenting

846
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 2: a false and limited choice to the reader and then

847
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 2: describing one of those choices as inherently good and the

848
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: other is inherently bad. Lewis was a believer in natural

849
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: hierarchies and a critique of democracy, which he felt was

850
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: the best system overall, but also was not a good system.

851
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: And he believed that, among other things, one of the

852
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: problems democracy had is that it must ultimately destroy a education.

853
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: Right that, like, because of the way democracy functions, it's

854
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: going to like fuck up the educational system.

855
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: Effects or like overtaking back like scenes or you know, he's.

856
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 2: Not entirely wrong about Obviously, other democracies do better. So

857
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: I don't agree with him. This is inherent but it

858
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: can happen, right.

859
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 3: A lot of bad things can happen and it's not

860
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: exactly exactly.

861
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: And Lewis was also he was deeply critical about technological

862
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: process and the worship of machines in a way that

863
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: makes me pretty certain he'd have rejected AI violently. Both

864
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: he and Tolkien would have been on the bomb data

865
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: centers side. If they would be radicals about that, Like

866
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: if you could bring both of those guys forward and

867
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: explain to them what Sam Altman is trying to do,

868
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: they would try to buy a gun, like like they

869
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: would be extremists.

870
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 4: Using I mean even like using the AI for like

871
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 4: fake things like dead people have said, and like the

872
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 4: ghost AI stuff they're doing all all of it is.

873
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 2: If you explain to him, like how much water and

874
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: pollution are created by data centers, he would, like fucking

875
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 2: Tolkien especially, would lose his mind, like he never imagined

876
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: anything that awful.

877
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: It's just not even like taking a like what the.

878
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: Thing is doing itself exactly?

879
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what it can create or create in quotes,

880
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: I guess, but yeah.

881
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: Now, Lewis did believe that you could reform bad political

882
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: systems through Christian education, like that was his solution to

883
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 2: the problems democracy causes. For education but he was also

884
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: against mandating Christian principles in public education. Right, So we

885
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: see in Lewis as a mix of some values and

886
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: stances that could very easily be mapped to things that

887
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: Ben himself believes there are some. But mixed in with

888
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: this is a fundamental distrust of giving humans power, one

889
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: that makes me equally certain he'd have disliked the argument

890
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 2: that Ben is making here about lions and scavengers. In

891
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: his book Present Concerns, Lewis wrote, I don't deserve a

892
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 2: share in governing a hen roost, much less a nation,

893
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 2: Nor do most people who believe advertisements and think in

894
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: catchwords and spread rumors. The real reason for democracy is

895
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: just the reverse. Mankind is so fallen that no man

896
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows.

897
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 3: He would hate so much about he be.

898
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 4: So unhappy like the internet memes, meme culture, like yesh god,

899
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 4: he and again.

900
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: Not at all woke, just absolutely not just disgusted with,

901
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: like not a theocrat as Christian as he was not

902
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: a theocrat exactly.

903
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, every single AI post that the Department of Homeland

904
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 4: Security puts up, like every single thing.

905
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: You're doing is fucking mind oh yeah, grotesque.

906
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 3: God yeah.

907
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: Now, after quoting Lewis, Ben introduces another wrinkle to his

908
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: lion scavenger dichotomy. The pride of Lions is split up

909
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 2: between three sub archetypes. The weaver, who quote weaves together

910
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: the disparate strands of family and society and often goes unnoticed,

911
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: but quote, are the true heroes of our civilization, and

912
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: the hunters. The warriors and the weavers form a pride together.

913
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: It is kind of unclear to me what separates the

914
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: hunters from I think the weavers are like women. That's

915
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: the place women have in the pride is they're the weavers.

916
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: You know.

917
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 3: The men get two groups to choose from.

918
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: That's right, They get to hunt or war Yeah. I anyway,

919
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: and again also been uses warrior and hunter more or

920
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: less synonyms in this book.

921
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 3: It's just.

922
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: After establishing this the subsets of the pride, the categories

923
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: inside the pride been acknowledges that lions have to create

924
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: a system of rules, which they absolutely don't because they

925
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: each have the spirit of the scavenger in them, and

926
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 2: so they have to always be on guard against being

927
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: overtaken by that. And again, half of their calories they

928
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: get from scavenging. Ad they're not unguarded against it, it's

929
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: how they survive. The Pride has a spirit of of scaverty,

930
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: Lion has the spirit of a scavenger in them. What

931
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 2: he's trying to say is that, like he's describing the scavengers,

932
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: liberals and left just as like people who are lazy

933
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: and just want to steal from other people and also

934
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: tear down whether people have built. And Ben is trying

935
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: to say that, like there's that voice in all of

936
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: us that we have to be on guard against, right,

937
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 2: Like that's that's what he's trying to say, right, Yeah.

938
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: Because also in that same interview about this book, they

939
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 4: bring up Vance, and Ben basically admits that, like, yeah,

940
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 4: the current version of Vance is a bit of a scavenger.

941
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 4: He's doing all these things. He like he's describe Vance, yeah,

942
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 4: oh one hundred percent. Like he's like, yeah, the the

943
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 4: Hillbilly Elogy era, he was like a lion, which like

944
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 4: maybe he was a scavenger the whole time. Ben, who

945
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 4: you know, how is that being a lion?

946
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 2: He's literally just.

947
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 4: Okay, I know we don't need to but like it's

948
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 4: just it's absurd, but it was interesting that he is

949
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 4: willing to recognize that there are scavengers amidst. I don't

950
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 4: even know if he thinks Trump's a lion or not,

951
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 4: but that whole group of people.

952
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

953
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: Next after this we get one of the least coherent

954
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: sections of the book. Thus far, A pride of lions

955
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: can accomplish nearly anything unless the pride falls to the

956
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: pack and pack is capitalized too. The spirit of the scavenger,

957
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: the spirit of the scavenger is the spirit of envy.

958
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: He's not he's just putting work.

959
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: There's just there's It's just ridiculous.

960
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: It means nothing.

961
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 2: It means nothing. It's so irrational because the foundation of this,

962
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: the whole light You're just wrong entirely about, Like none

963
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: of this makes sense. It's like if I were to

964
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: write a book about like fucking I don't even know

965
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: how to like make a bad enough analogy.

966
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 3: No, really bad.

967
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 4: You can't because also when you say the word pack

968
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: and you capitalize, I'm thinking of wolves, which wouldn't you

969
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 4: be able to use for your other Like they're so interchangeable.

970
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: It's like if I were to write a book called

971
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 2: The Horse in the Ant and started with like Obviously,

972
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: the horse sore is high above all of us on

973
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 2: its mighty wings.

974
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 4: And.

975
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: Meanwhile the ant looming over the horse.

976
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: Okay, so I debated whether or not to discuss the

977
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: fact that Ben himself is clearly motivated by a deep

978
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 2: spirit of envy.

979
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: Right.

980
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: His initial career goal, as you and I have talked

981
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: about on several podcasts Cody, was to write for Hollywood.

982
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: He wanted to be a screenwriter. He wanted to write

983
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: TV in movies. And he filled in this goal because

984
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: he's not good at it, right, And the Daily Wires

985
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: movie like is also a massive waste of money, horrible

986
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: idea because none of them are good writers.

987
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: Hey, you wait until they do the anti woke snow White. Okay,

988
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 4: that's gonna be really, really good.

989
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: That's going to really blow up. Audiences are craving, the

990
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: children cry out, demanding, and he woke snow fucking White.

991
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: You can hear him now, they're just woke.

992
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: Snow was the Snow White Man like the sixties. It's

993
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: not woke, I don't anyway.

994
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: It's because they made a new one and the.

995
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I haven't been keeping up with the fucking

996
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: Disney don't. Yes, But I think it's important to hear

997
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 2: the spirit of envy is the primary that's the center

998
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: of Ben Shapiro's soul. Right, it is quite obvious reading

999
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: his angry rants against Hollywood. That's a huge amount of

1000
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: his writing, and it's why he's tried to make the

1001
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: Daily Wire. They wasted millions trying to create their own

1002
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 2: Hollywood because his hatred of the left its origin in

1003
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. I'm not going to say this

1004
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: is the only origin point, but a major source for

1005
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: his hatred of the left is because he sees Hollywood

1006
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 2: as a fundamentally leftist institution that refused to give him

1007
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: the respect he deserves, that didn't recognize his brilliance.

1008
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: Right.

1009
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 2: That is beIN Shapiro's origin story as a villain is

1010
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: that he couldn't hack it as a fucking professional screenwriter.

1011
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 3: Yes, about eighty five percent, right, yeah, exactly.

1012
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 4: Growing up fundamentalist, religious conservative, all that kind of stuff

1013
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 4: did not help.

1014
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 3: But that resentment fueled bienvy is one hundred percent of.

1015
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he can only see this as an example

1016
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: of Hollywood hate conservatives like him, Right, it has to

1017
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: be bigotry. That's because that's the only way he could

1018
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: not succeed, right, And you know, he has to ignore

1019
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: a lot in order to believe this. If he were

1020
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: to look at reality, he would see that plenty of

1021
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 2: conservatives have been very successful in Hollywood. Screenwriters like David

1022
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: Mammott and John Millius right or Millius, I always forget

1023
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 2: the guy who did Red Dawn. Right, Actors like Kelsey

1024
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: Grammer and John voightd not to mention Sylvester Stallone and

1025
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: Arnold Schwarzenegger, who feels more like a Democrat today but

1026
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: was the literal Republican governor of California.

1027
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 3: Right.

1028
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: There's plenty of successful conservatives to the Hollywood as actors

1029
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: and writers, massively.

1030
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: Successful and talented, very conservative.

1031
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: Persons, plenty of conservative like movies that are conservative. And

1032
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: I'm just think about how many during the War on Terror,

1033
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: how many TV shows and movies had a scene where

1034
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: the guy has to torture someone to save lives. Right,

1035
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: That is conservative propaganda.

1036
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 4: Even though it's like they would buy a lot of

1037
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,959
Speaker 4: like self described libs or whatever, or like, it's still

1038
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 4: conservative ideologically. Like, yeah, but we're in America, so we

1039
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 4: don't recognize that all of that is in service of

1040
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: a more right wing viewpoint, and he resents it. And

1041
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: I mean, we're seeing it now with all this like

1042
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 4: move to like I'm not even gonna say canceled culture

1043
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 4: because that's not what it is.

1044
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: It's not what it's going on.

1045
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 4: But like the firing of all these people is an

1046
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 4: expression of that resentment because they want to do it,

1047
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 4: they want to be doing it.

1048
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: Right and there, Yeah, part of it is if I

1049
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 2: get them out, finally I'll get a shot and.

1050
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: People will realize that I was finally late night with Gefeld.

1051
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah right. And obviously, you know, Ben did not fail

1052
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: to make it in Hollywood because people were bigoted against

1053
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 2: his conservatism. He failed because he's not a good writer.

1054
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: His only talent isn't agitating people with cheap political shots.

1055
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: This is very funny because the next paragraph of the

1056
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 2: book after that line about the spirits of the Scavenger

1057
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: is the spirit of envy. The very next paragraph is

1058
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 2: basically been describing himself. The Scavenger does not believe in

1059
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: an understandable universe in which success is the result of

1060
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 2: performance of duty. Instead, the Scavenger believes that any such

1061
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: argument as a guise for power and power alone. The Scavenger,

1062
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: in his perverse projection believes that there is a great

1063
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 2: conspiracy against him, and that the only path to success

1064
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 2: lies in tearing away at that great conspiracy with tooth

1065
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: and claw. Oh, bell, Ben Ben, that's your life. That's

1066
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: your entire career, buddy.

1067
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 3: Your first book was about the conspiracy against you, and

1068
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 3: you specifically and conservatives generally.

1069
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: Yes, your whole life, bro Now. Ben goes on to

1070
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 2: write that while lions form a pride, scavengers form a pack,

1071
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 2: is it a problem from a writing standpoint that pack

1072
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 2: and pride are passable synonyms?

1073
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 3: No? Yeah, I mean it should be.

1074
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 2: But could you describe lions as having a pack?

1075
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 3: Sure? Sure? Right?

1076
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: I You couldn't describe other like pride doesn't go both.

1077
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 2: It's very like a urban whiskey thing, right. Anyway, The

1078
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 2: pack consists of looters, lectures, and barbarians. The fall of London,

1079
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: he writes, is symptomatic of the growing power of the pack,

1080
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: and reading this Reading him write about the fall of

1081
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: London felt particularly ridiculous in twenty twenty five, given that

1082
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: about a month before Binn's book was published, London police

1083
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: arrested four hundred and seventy four people at a Palestine

1084
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: Action ban protest, per the BBC, police have arrested four

1085
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: hundred seventy four people at a demonstration in London and support

1086
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: of the banned group Palestine Action. The Metropolitan Police said

1087
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: four hundred and sixty six protesters were arrested for supporting

1088
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: the group, five for assaults on police officers, two for

1089
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: public order offenses and one for a racially aggravated offense.

1090
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 2: Scores of people simultaneously unveiled handwritten signs with the message

1091
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 2: I opposed genocide, I support Palestine Action at the protest

1092
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 2: organized by Defendar Juries at Westminster's Parliament Square. It was

1093
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: the biggest protest since the government prescribed the group in

1094
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: July under the Terrorism Act of two thousand, making membership

1095
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: of or support for it a criminal offense punishable by

1096
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: up to fourteen years in prison. No officers were seriously injured,

1097
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: and the Met Police said that the number of arrests

1098
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:09,919
Speaker 2: was the largest made by the force on a single

1099
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: day in the last ten years. London really has fallen

1100
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 2: to the pack back of police. You can't even say

1101
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: I oppose genocide, I support this group, They'll arrest you.

1102
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I feel like he loves it again,

1103
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 4: it's just this is what they're talking about doing now,

1104
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 4: labeling anybody as a terrorist and doing exactly what you

1105
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 4: described but here, yep, that is their political project.

1106
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 3: That is what he is supporting right now.

1107
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: He's guesting on all the podcasts with the Vice President,

1108
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 4: who's only a podcaster now talking about this exact things.

1109
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, So maybe he's a I don't know, wolf

1110
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: of Vulture role yes, bad writer, yes, line piece of shit.

1111
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 3: Bad writer. Yeah.

1112
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: Now, given the way book publication timetables work, there's no

1113
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: way that you know these mass arrests happened. They certainly

1114
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 2: didn't happen in time for Ben to revise his book

1115
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 2: to account for it. Right, But the fact that this

1116
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 2: happened puts the lie to everything he says here about

1117
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: the supposedly massive and rising social power of the Pack

1118
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: and the fact that they've taken London, you know, the

1119
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: fact that the Pride has to constantly be back on

1120
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 2: their heels, scrambling desperately to hold onto civilization. Because if

1121
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 2: like you just acknowledge that, like no, actually they have

1122
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: all the power and they're like massively abusing it and

1123
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 2: like hurting people and like aren't in no danger whatsoever,

1124
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 2: but are endangering huge numbers of people. That doesn't sound

1125
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: as good.

1126
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 4: No, it needs to be Barbarians at the Gates were perpetual,

1127
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 4: desperately symptoms, perpetually persecuted, And.

1128
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: We have every lever of power exactly, And he critiques

1129
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 2: leftists in this passage from embracing Mauseidong's statement that political

1130
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 2: power grows from the barrel of a gun. But that's

1131
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 2: the only power Ben has ever recognized. What do you

1132
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: call these, matt what do you call mass arrests? Man

1133
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 2: premise of police? Like?

1134
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 4: What are you talking about? Like ice is like doing?

1135
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 4: Like that is political power?

1136
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: What do you call like Israel's actions?

1137
00:55:58,480 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 3: Right?

1138
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: Like, I mean it's bomb I guess more than the

1139
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: barrel of a gun. But you know, the basic idea

1140
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: is the same.

1141
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: Right, you can use language in ways to mean many things. Yeah,

1142
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 3: he believes that, Yes, he believes that. Yes.

1143
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: Ben continues with a warning that the children of lions

1144
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 2: well themselves become scavengers if the lions don't pass on

1145
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 2: their ways to their kids, and then he pivots to

1146
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: talking about an eighteen ninety seven poem that Richard Kipling

1147
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: wrote for The Diamond jubilee of Queen Victoria. This poem,

1148
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 2: written at the height of the power of the British Empire,

1149
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: he sees as a warning that went unheeded, the tumult

1150
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: and the shouting dies, the captains and the kings depart,

1151
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: still stands thine ancient sacrifice and humble in a contrite. Heart, Lord,

1152
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: God of Hosts, be with us. Yet lest we forget,

1153
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 2: Lest we forget now. I don't really see that as

1154
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: a warning about not indoctrinating your kid with propaganda, but

1155
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 2: I guess I can see where he's coming from there.

1156
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: It's clear that where he goes next in this chapter.

1157
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: Basically he says that the reason England fell, so to speak,

1158
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: is that they embrace the welfare state. And that's why

1159
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 2: the British Empire ended, right, That's why they're no longer

1160
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 2: the center of the West is because they got taken

1161
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: over by these socialist ideas and like the establishing of

1162
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 2: a welfare state, all of those lions, their kids became scavengers,

1163
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 2: you know, that's the argument.

1164
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 3: Yes, mandatory scavengerism, right.

1165
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 2: And this is classic been leaving out a massive and important,

1166
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: inconvenient fact that does not fit in his neat ideological lines.

1167
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: The British Empire didn't get sick and fail because of welfare.

1168
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: It began its slow death slide during the First World War,

1169
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: in which it lit its treasury on fire and annihilated

1170
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: a generation of young men. Kipling himself was profoundly changed

1171
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 2: by the horrors of World War One. He was a

1172
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 2: strong imperialist his whole life. He was a very strong

1173
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 2: imperialist prior to the outbreak of hostilities in World War One.

1174
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 2: Kipling despised Germany and German civilization, and he was a

1175
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: huge supporter at the outset of the war in England,

1176
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 2: getting involved and admitting to it. As the war started,

1177
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 2: he wrote something that feels very familiar to what Ben

1178
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 2: writes in his book For all we have and are,

1179
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: for all our children's fate, stand up and take the war.

1180
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 2: The hun is at the gate. That's essentially what Ben's writing.

1181
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 3: That's what he's writing, right.

1182
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's talk about Kipling. Let's talk about what

1183
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 2: World War One did to Kipling. Because Rudyard had one son,

1184
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: sixteen year old John Kipling. John was sixteen when the

1185
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 2: war started. Now, John had intended to join the Royal Navy,

1186
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 2: but his eyesight was bad and so he was unable

1187
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: to take on a navy career. So Rudyard used his

1188
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: connections being a very famous and influential person in media,

1189
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 2: to get John a commission as an officer in the

1190
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: Irish Guards, which is a British military unit made up

1191
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 2: of Irish soldiers right with British officers. In nineteen fifteen,

1192
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 2: John became a platoon commander in the Irish Guards and

1193
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 2: was sent to fight in the Battle of Loose. He

1194
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: died while assaulting the German lines. This was a profoundly

1195
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 2: traumatizing and event for Kipling. For one thing, Prior to

1196
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: his son becoming appletune matter, Kipling was super anti Irish

1197
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: right he was a strong Unionist, so he was anti

1198
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 2: Irish independence, but he was also just kind of bigoted

1199
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 2: against Irish people. He had written with disgust about Irish

1200
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 2: culture previously, and this changed, I think in part just

1201
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 2: because he had more contact through his son and whatnot

1202
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 2: with Irish people as a result of this, That's how

1203
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: things like this can happen. And I'm not going to

1204
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 2: say he ever totally turned around on the issue, but

1205
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 2: he wrote poetry about Irish history and started expressing after

1206
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: this point a considerable degree with admiration about irishchol, particularly

1207
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 2: in comparison to what he'd written before.

1208
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 3: Now.

1209
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: He also wrote this about what happened to his son

1210
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: in the wake of World War One. If any question

1211
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 2: why we died, tell them because our fathers lied.

1212
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 4: That seems maybe different from yeah, what the topic started as, right.

1213
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 2: It seems maybe again to go from where Ben is

1214
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: like the like no, the wars at the gate, anything

1215
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: we have to do is justified, and like, oh no,

1216
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 2: my son's dead. Up my kids, Maybe this was a

1217
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: fuck up. Right now, there's some context to this line,

1218
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 2: and I'm going to quote from an article for The

1219
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 2: Irish Times by Ronan McGreevy explaining the context behind this line.

1220
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: This has often been wrongly interpreted as Kipling believing that

1221
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: his son's death was in vain. He never believed the

1222
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 2: First World War was unnecessary, he believed it was badly prosecuted.

1223
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 2: On a more general level, this couplet is about the

1224
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 2: lies the older generations tell that compels the younger to fight.

1225
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:31,959
Speaker 2: It could also allude to his own lives and getting

1226
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 2: a son a commission when he was physically unfit to fight.

1227
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 2: So there's a lot going on here. But Kipling was

1228
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 2: racked for the rest of his life with a tremendous

1229
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 2: guilt because of what happened to his son, and because

1230
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: even if he could never admit that World War One

1231
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 2: was itself fully a bad idea, he knew that it

1232
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: was right. He had to be like, well, it was

1233
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: badly probab but he I think there's a degree of

1234
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: ego there. But he knew that he'd fucked up right,

1235
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: that they all had.

1236
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: Lied to them to get them to fight.

1237
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 2: That's and you know, Ben Ben will know ever admit

1238
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: to being wrong about anything. I don't think, no matter

1239
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 2: what happens, he's capable of that. But Kipling was to

1240
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: an extent, you know, he never fully repudiated imperialism. But

1241
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 2: he went to his grave racked by the knowledge that

1242
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: the war he'd endorsed and supported had taken not only

1243
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: his son, but had shattered the British Empire, right, it

1244
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: had shattered his hopes of continuing British imperial dominance. As

1245
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 2: an imperialist. He couldn't ignore the fact that like, oh

1246
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 2: this kind of ruined.

1247
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 4: It at all, right, Yeah, you know, like sometimes expressing that

1248
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 4: sort of guilt is how you're actually saying that you

1249
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 4: were wrong without saying it right, because that's human beings

1250
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 4: are complex and it can be very hard to just

1251
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 4: say those words.

1252
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 3: So you just expressed the guilt of it, right.

1253
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 2: And it's so telling about Ben and about what goes

1254
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 2: on in his head that he cites approvingly this passage

1255
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 2: of Kipling while ignoring the rest of his life, because

1256
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 2: in reality, a figure like Rudyard Kipling ought to be

1257
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 2: a warning to Ben Shapiro and those like him. Right,

1258
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: And even again, I don't want to frame it as

1259
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 2: like Kipling got woke after World War One, but Kipling

1260
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: got increasingly critical of imperialism and of his previous stances

1261
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 2: after World War One, and he actually wrote some stuff.

1262
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: One of his poems, A pict Song, is one of

1263
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 2: my favorite anti imperialist pieces of writing. And I was

1264
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: considering just reading like a segment from it. But do

1265
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: you mind if I just read the poem because I

1266
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: think we all need this, right, I think this might

1267
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 2: be handy as we all watch this fucking empire come

1268
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 2: down to crush us and the ones we love. So

1269
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna read this poem and then we'll talk about.

1270
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: It depressing, and then yeah, yeah, you're the place poem.

1271
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 2: So this is a picked song by Ridyard Kipling. Rome

1272
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 2: never looks where she treads. Always her heavy hoofs fall

1273
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 2: on our stomachs, our hearts, or our heads. And Rome

1274
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 2: never heeds when we ball her. Centuries pass on, that

1275
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: is all, and we gather behind them in hordes and

1276
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: plot to reconquer the wall with only our tongues for

1277
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 2: our swords. We are the little folk, we too little

1278
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 2: to love or to hate. Leave us alone, and you'll

1279
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 2: see how we can drag down the state. We are

1280
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 2: the worm in the wood. We are the rod at

1281
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 2: the root. We are the taint and the blood. We

1282
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 2: are the thorn in the foot, mistletoe killing an oak,

1283
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 2: rats gnawing cables in two moths, making holes in a coat.

1284
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 2: How they must love what they do. Yes, and we

1285
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 2: little folk too, We are as busy as they, working

1286
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 2: our works.

1287
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: Out of you.

1288
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 2: Watch and you'll see it someday. No, indeed we are

1289
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 2: not strong, but we know peoples that are, Yes, and

1290
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: we'll guide them along to smash and destroy you in war.

1291
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 2: We shall be slaves just the same. Yes, we have

1292
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: always been slaves. But you you will die of the shame,

1293
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 2: and then we shall dance on your graves. I like

1294
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: that poem. Anyway, That's all I got for part one,

1295
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 2: or for the first. We'll probably come back to this book,

1296
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 2: but I think you get the idea of what beIN's

1297
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: going for here and why it's full of shit.

1298
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm convinced that maybe we're all lines and scavengers.

1299
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 3: Are we part of a pack?

1300
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 4: We're also a part of a pack, and we are

1301
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 4: also a colony of we can say ants or hive also,

1302
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 4: and the hives are made of crows, and the crows

1303
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 4: are made of lions, right.

1304
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 2: Right, Every crow contains a lion, you know. Yeah, it's known.

1305
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 4: You know, we all went to school. We all learned

1306
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 4: about lions and crows.

1307
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1308
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: It's like the parable of the butterfly and the Tyrannosaurus rex,

1309
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: you know, both of which swim deep in the ocean

1310
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 2: in the Marianas Trench on the moon. It's his accurate

1311
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 2: as what Bin's written.

1312
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, huh, it's good.

1313
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 2: Anyway, how you feeling brody? Have I ever done that before? Yes?

1314
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 3: I think I feel like shody.

1315
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 4: Sure, I appreciate that he at least knows he needs

1316
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 4: to get some good sentences into his books, so he

1317
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 4: quotes other writers, even if he doesn't like necessarily interpret them.

1318
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 3: Well, he's at least.

1319
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 2: Got to pad this out with some token and Lewis

1320
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: and Kipling.

1321
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 3: Because I gotta keep people.

1322
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 2: Notice that I can't write. Yeah, incredible good stuff.

1323
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 3: Shout to him.

1324
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: Co Do you want to plug anything?

1325
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 3: Sure? Why not? Check out Some More News. It's our

1326
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 3: weekly show.

1327
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 4: I sat at a desk, I read the news and

1328
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 4: talk about various topics. We also have a show called

1329
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,959
Speaker 4: even More News twice a week talks about more current

1330
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 4: events in a more casual way.

1331
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: And check out my band. It's called the Hot Shapes.

1332
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, check out Cody's band. Check out Cody, you know,

1333
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,919
Speaker 2: at like a bar or something. Mm hmm, be like, hey,

1334
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 2: how's it going.

1335
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 3: I'll be like good, Yeah, you want to drink? I'll

1336
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,959
Speaker 3: say yeah, don't do that. Yeah don't.

1337
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,919
Speaker 2: I shouldn't joke about the weird parasocial stuff because that'll happen.

1338
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 3: Oh we don't want any of that.

1339
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: But check out Cody's podcasts and the YouTube show, and

1340
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 2: check out when we come back to Ben Shapiro's book,

1341
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 2: which I'm sure We'll do at least one more.

1342
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: Time before the US.

1343
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 2: Well Gang. This has been behind the podcast of Bastards

1344
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: about Shapiro beIN, good Night, and good Luck Bay.

1345
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1346
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1347
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1348
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1349
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1350
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1351
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards