WEBVTT - The Second Secret 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.440 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning. 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.920 This episode contains discussions of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.920 If you are a loved one is struggling with suicidal thoughts, 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:26.320 please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. At I think 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.200 I was old enough to think, not like, oh my god, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.000 she lied to me. I can't believe she did that. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:31.560 But I think I had the thought, well, there must 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:33.839 be a reason she lied about it. There must be 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.680 a reason she didn't want me to know. I think 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.080 I was worried about like upsetting her, or I wouldn't 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.479 say I was scared. I was more nervous to say anything. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.040 So I just that's kind of my m O, like nervous. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:48.960 Sometimes if I'm scared or nervous to do something, I 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.159 just don't do it, or I put it off. I'd 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:58.960 procrastinate it. That's Lindsay Romer. And this is a story 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.600 of a layer to see grit, the kind that begins 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.640 in childhood and moves through life in various ways, sometimes 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.920 so subtle that we don't even know what's happening. We 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.520 just have a faint whiff of something not quite adding up, 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:18.520 not quite making sense. And as always when the secret 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:23.360 is finally spoken, fully revealed, Finally, though it may be shocking, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:41.360 finally we understand. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.920 the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.200 keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.960 I grew up in Baltimore County, Maryland, was born there, 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.120 and I really have nothing but positive memories of my childhood, 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.480 even with you know, my parents got divorced when I 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.960 was I think, maybe like three, but I still everything. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.040 I think it's when you're a child, you kind of 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.639 see everything with rose colored glasses. I guess that makes sense. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.679 It was just kind of normal. There were kids that 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.880 I went to school with her that I knew that 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.000 seemed to have a whole lot of things, things that 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.440 they did in their lives, sometimes like more than I 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.239 guess what I felt like I had. But I never 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.440 felt like I was missing anything. My mom was always 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:39.160 very loving and caring and a cute little house in 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.280 Baltimore County, and it was me and my brother and 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.120 your brother is he's three years younger than me. Do 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:51.160 you have memories of that really early childhood time. I 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.280 know your father died when you were five. Do you 0:02:54.520 --> 0:03:00.760 have memories of him? He was actually a magician. Um. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.120 He used to, you know, do shows all over the 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.520 place and would always do my birthday parties. And I 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.960 just remember him as like a happy, just kind of glowing, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.280 magical person. I don't ever remember him seeming or being 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.400 sad or upset. Do you have any memories of his 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.040 performing at your at your birthday parties? I do. There's 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:21.880 one in particular. It's just kind of like a flash 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.600 of a memory. Sitting in front of the bay window 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.600 at our old house, and maybe it was probably a 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.200 small party, maybe I had like seven or eight friends over, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.160 and he did you know, it, was doing some magic tricks. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.880 And it was this combination of so excited and happy 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.320 that he was performing for us, and also like very proud, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.320 you know, thinking like, oh my god, my friends must 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.120 think this is so cool. My dad's a magician. And 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.480 maybe cool wasn't the word I used, but oh my god, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.000 my dad's a magician, Like this is kind of as 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:54.200 good as it gets for a tiny kid. I remember 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.200 being at one of his magic shows in the theater, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.440 and I was either in the front row or pretty 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.440 close to the front row and I had I remember 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:03.880 these sun kissed fruit snacks that my mom used to buy, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.560 and they were a little little like pellet shaped things, 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:08.640 and I would wash them onto my fingernails and pretend 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.080 that I had pretty fancy lady nails. And I remember 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.440 watching one of his magic shows while sitting doing that 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.240 with my nails in the audience. After my parents separated, 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.720 he had um, you know, obviously his own place, and 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.480 it was just decorated with so much magic stuff. I 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.000 remember there was a slot machine that took dines, and 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.680 he would just have this unlimited supply of dimes and 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.479 would just let me play on that. Did your mom 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.640 work as well? She did. She still has the same 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.719 job she had. Um Out of school, she went to 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.880 Micah and she's an interior designer. Tell me a little 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.359 bit more about your mother. My mom, she's somebody I 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.960 hold as you know, Like I said, my brother is 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.000 one of my best friends, I hold my mom just 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:56.080 as close. She's someone over the years that I have 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.080 grown to develop just so much respect for and how 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.279 much love. And I've always loved her. I've never there's 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:03.680 never a point in my life and I was like, 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.080 you know, my Mom's the meanest other than probably when 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:07.520 I was going through puberty and she told me I 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:11.960 couldn't go to the movies or something. But she is 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.039 someone that I now have two step daughters that are 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.560 nine and eleven, and there's so many times that I 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.200 will call her a text her and be like, oh 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.440 my god, one of them just did something to me 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.400 that really upset me or hurt my feelings. And I 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:24.960 know I did the same thing to you, and I'm 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.080 so sorry, And you know, this gives me this whole 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.880 new level of respect for her. I think is a parent. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.160 And one thing that always stuck out to me is 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.720 when we were kids, you know, we weren't wealthy by 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.400 any means, but she never, if you know, me and 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.720 my brother would ask for a million things as kids do, 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.080 whether we were at the grocery store, towards r US 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.640 or wherever, and she would never say we can't afford that. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:50.400 She would just say we don't need that. And that 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.720 was something that looking back as an adult, I think 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.919 was just um a wise, I guess way of saying 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.719 that to us and kind of helped me, I guess 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.360 as I grew up as an adult valuate you know, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:03.560 do I need this? No, I don't need this. Maybe 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.039 I just put it back on the shelf. I shouldn't 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.480 get it today. Right, that's so interesting. So it wasn't 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.919 coming from a place of scarcity, but from like a 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:17.360 value judgment or weighing what's necessary or what we need 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:26.360 and what we don't. M hm. So Lindsay's dad is 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.520 a magician. Really, this has got to be like hitting 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:34.599 the parental jackpot. Well, maybe astronaut or owner of a 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.400 candy factory. It's been a couple of years since her 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.560 parents marriage ended. Her parents now share custody, and Lindsay's 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.960 father is supposed to be picking Lindsay and her brother 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.800 up for their time with him. But on this particular night, 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.040 he never shows. It was a Tuesday night and my 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.960 mom was out of town and my grandmother was staying 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.960 with us, and he just didn't show up. But I 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.280 remember like looking out the window and it just got 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.600 later and later and later, and he just never arrived. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.159 My grandmother and then she was like, you know, it's 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.000 too late, you guys have to go to bed. Let's 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.040 just go to bed. And the next day my mom 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.120 came back from her trip early. I wasn't expecting her 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:16.920 that early, and there were all these people in our 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.280 house and I couldn't find my mom. They're just I 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:21.960 kept being like, where's my mom, where's my mom? And 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.160 I remember people being leave your mother alone. She'll she'll 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.720 be down in a minute, and leave your mother alone. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.480 But I just had this very vivid memory of being 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.720 in that house and just seeing, you know, as short 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.360 as I was at five years old, just seeing all 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.400 these legs everywhere. And then I finally went up and 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.160 found her in her bedroom and she sat me down 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.840 and was like, I have to tell you something. Daddy 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.520 died in a car accident. And I don't think at 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.080 that age I really quite understood what death was. We 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:50.960 had had a dog that died, but I don't think 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.960 that was ever. I knew the dog just wasn't coming back. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.320 She but just wasn't coming back anymore. But I don't 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.440 think I quite understood. But I do remember sitting on 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.880 her bed and crying because I think I knew death 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.080 was like I knew she been net wasn't coming back 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.920 so then, and my dad wasn't coming back. And I'm 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.280 assuming your brother wasn't there for that conversation because he 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.960 was too little. Oh yeah, he was so little. I 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.440 mean he was I guess a little over too. I 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.920 don't know what kind of conversation my mother had with him, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.000 or how she said it or what she said, but 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:32.800 I'm sure something simple was communicated to him. So Lindsay 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.240 grows up having been told that her dad died in 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.880 a car accident. She was also told that the accident 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:43.280 was due to carbon monoxide poisoning. As children, we tend 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.920 to take what we're told at face value, and yet 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.960 at the same time, if it doesn't make sense, we 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.320 puzzle over it, or we get nervous about it. We 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.959 can't quite let it go. We create our own narratives, 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:01.320 as Lindsay does. Here, remember asking, and my mom said 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.160 something along the lines of if he's stay in your 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.120 car for too long with the windows rolled up, carbon 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.520 monoxide can get in your car and it can kill you. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.240 So the way that was explained to me, I didn't 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.160 quite get it. So, like when I was a kid, 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.520 at red lights in the car, I would crack my 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.240 window a little bit because I was afraid that would 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:19.959 happen if we sat at a red light for too 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.520 long with our windows rolled on. Does your mom me Mary? 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.920 She did, Yeah, when I was about ten, How did 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:31.760 you experience loss of your father, Like, how did you 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.080 internalize it? And how did you think about him as 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.280 you were growing up, as you got a little bit older, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.959 as your mom remarried, as you got to middle school, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.440 high school, how did that sit inside of you? First 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.679 and foremost, I just I missed him, But I think 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.120 I always felt like I didn't know anybody else to 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.760 my age whose father had died, So I guess it 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.800 made me feel really left out sometimes. Or if I 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.400 would go to a friend's house and see them, like, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.320 you know, their father hug them, or their father be 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:05.480 there at dinner, or their father take them somewhere or 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.480 take us somewhere, that was always like a reminder I 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.000 don't have that. I don't have a my biological dad 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.480 here anymore. It wasn't something I think I thought about 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.840 twenty four hours a day, but I would notice it 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.560 in moments like that, and it just made me feel 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.040 kind of left out or mothered, or it made me 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:30.160 feel sad. How old are you when you learn that 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.600 there's more to the story than carbon monoxide poisoning. As 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:39.400 I grew up, I would see very sele sporadically, not often, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.160 but once in a while I would see somebody it 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.120 portrayed in like a TV show or a movie where 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.440 somebody would get in their car and attach to you know, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.000 regular car up so that that would happen, and I 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.480 remember thinking, that's weird. And I remember hearing carbon monoxide 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.400 said out loud in at least one or two of 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.920 these shows or movies, and I was like, Oh, that's weird. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.400 That guy did it on purpose. I was told it 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.400 was an accident of what happened to my dad, that 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.920 it wasn't on purpose. And when I was in high school, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.439 my stepdad. My stepdad has two brothers. One it's awesome 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:13.480 and we see him all the time at holidays and 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.040 whenever our families get together. And the other one, I 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.960 think has struggled with mental illness his whole life, and 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.600 he would do odd things. And there was one time 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.480 when I was in high school and he called our 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:26.720 house and I answered that I happened to be the 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.160 one to answer the phone, and you know, maybe we 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:31.600 had call her. I d then, I don't know, it 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.800 was like the house phone and I just said hello, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.760 and he said Lindsay why did your dad kill himself? 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:41.680 And I was like, okay, Mom, Jack's on the phone, like, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.920 what what is this? You know? She took the phone 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:46.760 and I guess they had their conversation, and then when 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.280 she hung up, I told her what he said, and 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.400 she said, oh, he's crazy. Don't listen to him. That's 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.320 not true. I was like, Okay, he had done some 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.240 had some kind of erratic and odd behavior in the past, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.280 so I didn't think to like question um what she said. 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.240 And then when I was I was like twenty two 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.520 or twenty three, I had gotten accepted into an AmeriCorps program. 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.440 We're just kind of like Peace Corps, but in America, 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.680 and I needed my birth certificate or a copy of 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.079 my birth certificate for it. And I was always I'm 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.520 embarrassed to admit that I was such a snoop when 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.880 I was a kid. It's always like going through stuff 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.520 in my house that was not mine. But this wasn't 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.760 even like intentional snooping. I really I knew we had 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.640 this file cabinet in the basement that had documents in it, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:34.800 and I don't know if my mom wasn't home or 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.800 if I just didn't want to bother her and I 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.200 went looking for my birth certificate and I found my 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.120 dad's death certificate, and I remember it was a plain, 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.640 simple piece of paper and there were different options like 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.840 natural causes illness, a few other things in suicide, and 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.040 I just remember there's a big typewriter looking X next 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:59.760 to suicide, and I was like, whoa it. You know, 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.679 was the first time I guess it was really confirmed 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.000 for me. And I think in the back of my mind, 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.160 I think I knew that's what it was, even though 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.640 my mom told me it wasn't. It was based on 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.240 those depictions that I had seen in TV shows and movies, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.400 and I think I just didn't want to really accept 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.360 that as the truth. And then I didn't really have 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.440 a choice but to accept it when I saw it 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.280 on the paper. You know, it's so interesting when you 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.440 when you bring up snooping, because that's such a theme, 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:33.000 was people who have had secrets kept from them. I 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:40.079 think we so often become these little slews or snoops, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.880 you know, without having any idea why, but it becomes 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:49.040 this like little obsessive behavior. It was kind of it's 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:50.720 funny that you said that it was sound was like 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.719 a little private investigator. Yeah, I guess that now here 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.679 you say that that makes a lot of sense to me. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:58.880 I don't think I could have put into words before. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:00.640 I think I think I was thought I was just 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.520 like a rude little kid. It's like, I'm going to 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.480 find some things out that I'm probably not sopposed too. 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.360 If you can call it back to mind, what did 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.520 it feel like that moment that you saw that X 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:17.560 next to suicide. I think physically the feeling I felt 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.520 was like my stomach dropped. But then in my mind 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.440 I almost said to myself, Duck, you've known this. Jack 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.280 said it, You've seen this in movies. You just weren't 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.600 letting the puzzle pieces all get pushed together in the 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.240 right arrangement. I think I kind of didn't want to 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.000 believe it, so I didn't believe it, but then I 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:44.520 had to when I found that paper. We'll be back 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:55.560 in a moment with more family secrets now. Lindsay knows 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.320 unequivocally that her mother has actively kept from her the 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.120 fact of her other suicide. She had directly asked, and 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.840 her mother had said, and I quote, no, no, that 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.320 didn't happen. She sits on this information for a little 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.960 while wrestling with it privately. She also doesn't want to 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.560 cause her mother pain. Sometimes it's easier not to say 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:23.720 anything at all. I think I was old enough to think, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.400 not like, oh my god, she lied to me. I 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.040 can't believe she did that, But I think I had 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:28.840 the thought, well, there must be a reason she lied 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:30.840 about it. There must be a reason she didn't want 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.360 me to know. I think I was worried about like 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.480 upsetting her, or I wouldn't say I was scared. I 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.240 was more nervous to say anything. So I just that's 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.800 kind of my m O, like nervous. Sometimes if I'm 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:44.960 scared or nervous to do something, I just don't do it, 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.920 or I put it off, or I procrastinate it. So 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.160 it wasn't until a couple of months later when I 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:54.160 was actually away. I was in Denver, Colorado, at a 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.640 training for my Americorp program, and one night, I'm really 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.360 not sure what inspired me to do it, I just 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.240 called her. I just was like, I'm going to do 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.800 this now. And I called her and told her what 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.760 I found. And I just remember hearing this, not an 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.480 angry sigh, not a sad sigh, just a I don't 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.680 know if it was relief or if it was worried 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:16.760 or if I don't know what it was, but she 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.280 just kind of sighed and said, yeah, yeah, that's what happened. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.000 And I remember asking her, like, you know, why didn't 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.160 you tell me? And her response was just, you know, 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.080 when should I have? There never was a right time. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:32.800 Just I didn't know how to tell a five year 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.600 old little girl that, and when do I do it 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.880 when you're ten, when you're fifteen, eighteen twenty one. There 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.000 never was a right time, and I just never knew 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.400 when to drop that bomb. And you know, I was like, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.720 I get that, that's kind of a nice kind of 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.360 the way I operate. If I'm scared or I don't 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.400 know how, I just don't do it. I think I 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.360 remember being a little bit like you lied to me? 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.720 Why you lied to me? And I think her response 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:57.560 was just kind of I panicked. You know, I didn't 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.600 expect Jack to call and say anything like that to you. 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:01.240 That's not you know, if you ever were to know, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.280 that's not the way I wanted you didn't find out. 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.199 I wasn't mad or anything, but I was grateful that 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.639 we had that conversation and that she did open up 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:15.240 about it, And did she give you any sense of 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:21.520 the reason for or the motivation behind your father's suicide. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.959 Did she talk about his being in any way unstable 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.120 or mentally ill or depressed? Not really. It was kind 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.080 of like my whole life. She didn't speak highly of him, 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.000 but she also didn't speak poorly of him. She just 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.000 didn't really speak about him much at all. And I noticed, 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.040 you know, throughout my life if I had a question 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.640 about him, where I brought him up, it almost seemed 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.919 like she kind of like winced or like her body 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.280 tense stuff. And that communicated to me like maybe I 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.439 shouldn't bring him up too often because it just seemed 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:59.440 like uncomfortable or maybe painful for her. She just said, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:01.840 and that conversation when I was in Denver just that 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.280 he was very he was very depressed. He was having 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.520 on her time. But she really didn't give me any 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.760 kind of details about anything, you know. It's it's also 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:18.000 so interesting I think when as children or in families, 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.800 when we sense that a subject is painful or off limits, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.800 or you know, you describe your mother as wincing, that 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:33.000 serves to keep us quiet. It serves to you know, like, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.679 not want to cause pain, not want to rock the 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.239 boat in any way. I think it too was like 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.000 my mother. I've always just seen her as perfect and strong, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.040 and I didn't want to do anything to make her 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.040 not feel like that or upset her, don't make her 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:56.080 feel sad. Lindsey grows up to be a successful adult 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.680 with a great job. She has the whole story. She 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:01.760 knows all there is to know about how she lost 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.800 her father. She's moved on. If you were to come 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.840 across her Facebook page, you'd see whatever she had made 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.400 public on social media, perhaps a few photos and posts, 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.200 the information that you worked for a nonprofit and it 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:19.640 graduated from Villanova. You know, so many family secret stories 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.399 would not have come to light if not for social media, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:28.800 and what you're about to hear next is one of them. Yeah, 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.680 I think with my early thirties, I've got the Facebook 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.400 message from a man named Brian um Because, a very 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.560 handsome older man with gray hair and like a gray goatee, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.480 And this message said I knew your dad and I 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.320 knew your grandmother. We were friends. It looks like you 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.760 live a really great life right now. I think your 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.719 dad would be very happy to see that, and when 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.320 I first read it, it caught me off guard because 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.200 that my father just wasn't spoken of often really, even 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.439 between my brother and I that much. UM and we 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.440 didn't see my father there's side of the family very 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.080 often either, So it just wasn't a topic that came 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.840 up a lot. I thought about it a lot, but 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:07.920 it wasn't something that was like spoken about a lot. 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.440 So to have this, you know, essentially a stranger send 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.199 me this message, you know, part of it was just 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.080 it just really caught me off guard, and I didn't 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.320 really know how to respond to it, so I didn't. 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.040 And then I asked my mom about the name, and 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:26.159 she said, yeah, you don't really have to respond to 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.399 that person, like you didn't show any kind of emotion 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.199 in her face, didn't just was like, ah, yeah, that 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.119 might have been someone from your day's pass and now 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:34.440 you don't have to respond to him. I was like, 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.440 all right, So your mother says, no need to get 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.440 back to him, so that door gets closed. And then 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.640 what happens, Well, I guess fast forward maybe like five six, 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:50.600 seven years, and generally the education and training programs that 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.119 I do are around Baltimore City, UM in Baltimore County. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.359 But one of my co workers who lives on the 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.359 eastern shore of Maryland and she you know, does education 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.320 around there. She was out on medical weave and she 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.760 had this class that she did at facility in Delaware 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.760 that supports folks who are in recovery from drives and alcohol. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.080 And my supervisor was like, hey, listen, I know this 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.399 is super far away. It's just once a month. Can 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.080 you cover these until your coworkers out of medical agnostic? Sure, 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.480 no problem. And I had just started to get into 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.800 listening to podcasts, and I was like, amazing, I've got 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.359 like a two plus hour drive, you know, five probably 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:29.960 five hours round trip. I was in my car that 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.960 day and I think that around the times when I 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:38.400 stumbled on your podcast Family Secrets, and I found myself 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.600 so immersed into the episodes and they made the drive 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.040 feel like it was twenty minutes. And I remember pulling 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.399 up to the facility on the first class that I 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.040