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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning.

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Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: If you are a loved one is struggling with suicidal thoughts,

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Speaker 1: please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. At I think

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Speaker 1: I was old enough to think, not like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: she lied to me. I can't believe she did that.

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Speaker 1: But I think I had the thought, well, there must

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Speaker 1: be a reason she lied about it. There must be

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Speaker 1: a reason she didn't want me to know. I think

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Speaker 1: I was worried about like upsetting her, or I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say I was scared. I was more nervous to say anything.

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Speaker 1: So I just that's kind of my m O, like nervous.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes if I'm scared or nervous to do something, I

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Speaker 1: just don't do it, or I put it off. I'd

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Speaker 1: procrastinate it. That's Lindsay Romer. And this is a story

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Speaker 1: of a layer to see grit, the kind that begins

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Speaker 1: in childhood and moves through life in various ways, sometimes

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Speaker 1: so subtle that we don't even know what's happening. We

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Speaker 1: just have a faint whiff of something not quite adding up,

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Speaker 1: not quite making sense. And as always when the secret

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Speaker 1: is finally spoken, fully revealed, Finally, though it may be shocking,

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Speaker 1: finally we understand. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets,

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Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we

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Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in Baltimore County, Maryland, was born there,

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Speaker 1: and I really have nothing but positive memories of my childhood,

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Speaker 1: even with you know, my parents got divorced when I

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Speaker 1: was I think, maybe like three, but I still everything.

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Speaker 1: I think it's when you're a child, you kind of

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Speaker 1: see everything with rose colored glasses. I guess that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It was just kind of normal. There were kids that

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Speaker 1: I went to school with her that I knew that

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Speaker 1: seemed to have a whole lot of things, things that

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Speaker 1: they did in their lives, sometimes like more than I

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Speaker 1: guess what I felt like I had. But I never

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Speaker 1: felt like I was missing anything. My mom was always

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Speaker 1: very loving and caring and a cute little house in

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Speaker 1: Baltimore County, and it was me and my brother and

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Speaker 1: your brother is he's three years younger than me. Do

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Speaker 1: you have memories of that really early childhood time. I

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Speaker 1: know your father died when you were five. Do you

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Speaker 1: have memories of him? He was actually a magician. Um.

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Speaker 1: He used to, you know, do shows all over the

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Speaker 1: place and would always do my birthday parties. And I

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Speaker 1: just remember him as like a happy, just kind of glowing,

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Speaker 1: magical person. I don't ever remember him seeming or being

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Speaker 1: sad or upset. Do you have any memories of his

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Speaker 1: performing at your at your birthday parties? I do. There's

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Speaker 1: one in particular. It's just kind of like a flash

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Speaker 1: of a memory. Sitting in front of the bay window

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Speaker 1: at our old house, and maybe it was probably a

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Speaker 1: small party, maybe I had like seven or eight friends over,

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Speaker 1: and he did you know, it, was doing some magic tricks.

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Speaker 1: And it was this combination of so excited and happy

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Speaker 1: that he was performing for us, and also like very proud,

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Speaker 1: you know, thinking like, oh my god, my friends must

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Speaker 1: think this is so cool. My dad's a magician. And

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Speaker 1: maybe cool wasn't the word I used, but oh my god,

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Speaker 1: my dad's a magician, Like this is kind of as

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Speaker 1: good as it gets for a tiny kid. I remember

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Speaker 1: being at one of his magic shows in the theater,

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Speaker 1: and I was either in the front row or pretty

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Speaker 1: close to the front row and I had I remember

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Speaker 1: these sun kissed fruit snacks that my mom used to buy,

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Speaker 1: and they were a little little like pellet shaped things,

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Speaker 1: and I would wash them onto my fingernails and pretend

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Speaker 1: that I had pretty fancy lady nails. And I remember

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Speaker 1: watching one of his magic shows while sitting doing that

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Speaker 1: with my nails in the audience. After my parents separated,

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Speaker 1: he had um, you know, obviously his own place, and

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Speaker 1: it was just decorated with so much magic stuff. I

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Speaker 1: remember there was a slot machine that took dines, and

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Speaker 1: he would just have this unlimited supply of dimes and

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Speaker 1: would just let me play on that. Did your mom

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Speaker 1: work as well? She did. She still has the same

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Speaker 1: job she had. Um Out of school, she went to

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Speaker 1: Micah and she's an interior designer. Tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about your mother. My mom, she's somebody I

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Speaker 1: hold as you know, Like I said, my brother is

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Speaker 1: one of my best friends, I hold my mom just

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Speaker 1: as close. She's someone over the years that I have

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Speaker 1: grown to develop just so much respect for and how

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Speaker 1: much love. And I've always loved her. I've never there's

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Speaker 1: never a point in my life and I was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, my Mom's the meanest other than probably when

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Speaker 1: I was going through puberty and she told me I

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Speaker 1: couldn't go to the movies or something. But she is

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Speaker 1: someone that I now have two step daughters that are

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Speaker 1: nine and eleven, and there's so many times that I

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Speaker 1: will call her a text her and be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, one of them just did something to me

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Speaker 1: that really upset me or hurt my feelings. And I

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Speaker 1: know I did the same thing to you, and I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry, And you know, this gives me this whole

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Speaker 1: new level of respect for her. I think is a parent.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that always stuck out to me is

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Speaker 1: when we were kids, you know, we weren't wealthy by

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Speaker 1: any means, but she never, if you know, me and

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Speaker 1: my brother would ask for a million things as kids do,

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Speaker 1: whether we were at the grocery store, towards r US

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Speaker 1: or wherever, and she would never say we can't afford that.

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Speaker 1: She would just say we don't need that. And that

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Speaker 1: was something that looking back as an adult, I think

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Speaker 1: was just um a wise, I guess way of saying

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Speaker 1: that to us and kind of helped me, I guess

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Speaker 1: as I grew up as an adult valuate you know,

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Speaker 1: do I need this? No, I don't need this. Maybe

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Speaker 1: I just put it back on the shelf. I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: get it today. Right, that's so interesting. So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: coming from a place of scarcity, but from like a

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Speaker 1: value judgment or weighing what's necessary or what we need

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Speaker 1: and what we don't. M hm. So Lindsay's dad is

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Speaker 1: a magician. Really, this has got to be like hitting

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Speaker 1: the parental jackpot. Well, maybe astronaut or owner of a

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Speaker 1: candy factory. It's been a couple of years since her

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Speaker 1: parents marriage ended. Her parents now share custody, and Lindsay's

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Speaker 1: father is supposed to be picking Lindsay and her brother

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Speaker 1: up for their time with him. But on this particular night,

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Speaker 1: he never shows. It was a Tuesday night and my

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Speaker 1: mom was out of town and my grandmother was staying

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Speaker 1: with us, and he just didn't show up. But I

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Speaker 1: remember like looking out the window and it just got

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Speaker 1: later and later and later, and he just never arrived.

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Speaker 1: My grandmother and then she was like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: too late, you guys have to go to bed. Let's

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Speaker 1: just go to bed. And the next day my mom

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Speaker 1: came back from her trip early. I wasn't expecting her

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Speaker 1: that early, and there were all these people in our

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Speaker 1: house and I couldn't find my mom. They're just I

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Speaker 1: kept being like, where's my mom, where's my mom? And

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Speaker 1: I remember people being leave your mother alone. She'll she'll

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Speaker 1: be down in a minute, and leave your mother alone.

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Speaker 1: But I just had this very vivid memory of being

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Speaker 1: in that house and just seeing, you know, as short

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Speaker 1: as I was at five years old, just seeing all

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Speaker 1: these legs everywhere. And then I finally went up and

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Speaker 1: found her in her bedroom and she sat me down

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Speaker 1: and was like, I have to tell you something. Daddy

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Speaker 1: died in a car accident. And I don't think at

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Speaker 1: that age I really quite understood what death was. We

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Speaker 1: had had a dog that died, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: that was ever. I knew the dog just wasn't coming back.

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Speaker 1: She but just wasn't coming back anymore. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think I quite understood. But I do remember sitting on

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Speaker 1: her bed and crying because I think I knew death

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Speaker 1: was like I knew she been net wasn't coming back

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Speaker 1: so then, and my dad wasn't coming back. And I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming your brother wasn't there for that conversation because he

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Speaker 1: was too little. Oh yeah, he was so little. I

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Speaker 1: mean he was I guess a little over too. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what kind of conversation my mother had with him,

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Speaker 1: or how she said it or what she said, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure something simple was communicated to him. So Lindsay

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Speaker 1: grows up having been told that her dad died in

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Speaker 1: a car accident. She was also told that the accident

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Speaker 1: was due to carbon monoxide poisoning. As children, we tend

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Speaker 1: to take what we're told at face value, and yet

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Speaker 1: at the same time, if it doesn't make sense, we

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Speaker 1: puzzle over it, or we get nervous about it. We

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Speaker 1: can't quite let it go. We create our own narratives,

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Speaker 1: as Lindsay does. Here, remember asking, and my mom said

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Speaker 1: something along the lines of if he's stay in your

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Speaker 1: car for too long with the windows rolled up, carbon

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Speaker 1: monoxide can get in your car and it can kill you.

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Speaker 1: So the way that was explained to me, I didn't

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Speaker 1: quite get it. So, like when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: at red lights in the car, I would crack my

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Speaker 1: window a little bit because I was afraid that would

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Speaker 1: happen if we sat at a red light for too

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Speaker 1: long with our windows rolled on. Does your mom me Mary?

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Speaker 1: She did, Yeah, when I was about ten, How did

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Speaker 1: you experience loss of your father, Like, how did you

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Speaker 1: internalize it? And how did you think about him as

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Speaker 1: you were growing up, as you got a little bit older,

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Speaker 1: as your mom remarried, as you got to middle school,

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Speaker 1: high school, how did that sit inside of you? First

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Speaker 1: and foremost, I just I missed him, But I think

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Speaker 1: I always felt like I didn't know anybody else to

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Speaker 1: my age whose father had died, So I guess it

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Speaker 1: made me feel really left out sometimes. Or if I

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Speaker 1: would go to a friend's house and see them, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, their father hug them, or their father be

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Speaker 1: there at dinner, or their father take them somewhere or

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Speaker 1: take us somewhere, that was always like a reminder I

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Speaker 1: don't have that. I don't have a my biological dad

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Speaker 1: here anymore. It wasn't something I think I thought about

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, but I would notice it

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Speaker 1: in moments like that, and it just made me feel

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Speaker 1: kind of left out or mothered, or it made me

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Speaker 1: feel sad. How old are you when you learn that

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Speaker 1: there's more to the story than carbon monoxide poisoning. As

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Speaker 1: I grew up, I would see very sele sporadically, not often,

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Speaker 1: but once in a while I would see somebody it

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Speaker 1: portrayed in like a TV show or a movie where

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Speaker 1: somebody would get in their car and attach to you know,

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Speaker 1: regular car up so that that would happen, and I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking, that's weird. And I remember hearing carbon monoxide

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Speaker 1: said out loud in at least one or two of

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Speaker 1: these shows or movies, and I was like, Oh, that's weird.

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Speaker 1: That guy did it on purpose. I was told it

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Speaker 1: was an accident of what happened to my dad, that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't on purpose. And when I was in high school,

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Speaker 1: my stepdad. My stepdad has two brothers. One it's awesome

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Speaker 1: and we see him all the time at holidays and

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Speaker 1: whenever our families get together. And the other one, I

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Speaker 1: think has struggled with mental illness his whole life, and

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Speaker 1: he would do odd things. And there was one time

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Speaker 1: when I was in high school and he called our

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Speaker 1: house and I answered that I happened to be the

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Speaker 1: one to answer the phone, and you know, maybe we

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Speaker 1: had call her. I d then, I don't know, it

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Speaker 1: was like the house phone and I just said hello,

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Speaker 1: and he said Lindsay why did your dad kill himself?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, Mom, Jack's on the phone, like,

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Speaker 1: what what is this? You know? She took the phone

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Speaker 1: and I guess they had their conversation, and then when

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Speaker 1: she hung up, I told her what he said, and

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Speaker 1: she said, oh, he's crazy. Don't listen to him. That's

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Speaker 1: not true. I was like, Okay, he had done some

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Speaker 1: had some kind of erratic and odd behavior in the past,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't think to like question um what she said.

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Speaker 1: And then when I was I was like twenty two

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Speaker 1: or twenty three, I had gotten accepted into an AmeriCorps program.

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Speaker 1: We're just kind of like Peace Corps, but in America,

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Speaker 1: and I needed my birth certificate or a copy of

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Speaker 1: my birth certificate for it. And I was always I'm

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Speaker 1: embarrassed to admit that I was such a snoop when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. It's always like going through stuff

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Speaker 1: in my house that was not mine. But this wasn't

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Speaker 1: even like intentional snooping. I really I knew we had

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Speaker 1: this file cabinet in the basement that had documents in it,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if my mom wasn't home or

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Speaker 1: if I just didn't want to bother her and I

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Speaker 1: went looking for my birth certificate and I found my

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Speaker 1: dad's death certificate, and I remember it was a plain,

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Speaker 1: simple piece of paper and there were different options like

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Speaker 1: natural causes illness, a few other things in suicide, and

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Speaker 1: I just remember there's a big typewriter looking X next

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Speaker 1: to suicide, and I was like, whoa it. You know,

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Speaker 1: was the first time I guess it was really confirmed

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Speaker 1: for me. And I think in the back of my mind,

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Speaker 1: I think I knew that's what it was, even though

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Speaker 1: my mom told me it wasn't. It was based on

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Speaker 1: those depictions that I had seen in TV shows and movies,

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Speaker 1: and I think I just didn't want to really accept

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Speaker 1: that as the truth. And then I didn't really have

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Speaker 1: a choice but to accept it when I saw it

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Speaker 1: on the paper. You know, it's so interesting when you

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Speaker 1: when you bring up snooping, because that's such a theme,

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Speaker 1: was people who have had secrets kept from them. I

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Speaker 1: think we so often become these little slews or snoops,

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Speaker 1: you know, without having any idea why, but it becomes

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Speaker 1: this like little obsessive behavior. It was kind of it's

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Speaker 1: funny that you said that it was sound was like

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Speaker 1: a little private investigator. Yeah, I guess that now here

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Speaker 1: you say that that makes a lot of sense to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I could have put into words before.

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Speaker 1: I think I think I was thought I was just

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Speaker 1: like a rude little kid. It's like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: find some things out that I'm probably not sopposed too.

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Speaker 1: If you can call it back to mind, what did

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Speaker 1: it feel like that moment that you saw that X

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Speaker 1: next to suicide. I think physically the feeling I felt

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Speaker 1: was like my stomach dropped. But then in my mind

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Speaker 1: I almost said to myself, Duck, you've known this. Jack

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Speaker 1: said it, You've seen this in movies. You just weren't

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Speaker 1: letting the puzzle pieces all get pushed together in the

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Speaker 1: right arrangement. I think I kind of didn't want to

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Speaker 1: believe it, so I didn't believe it, but then I

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Speaker 1: had to when I found that paper. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: in a moment with more family secrets now. Lindsay knows

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Speaker 1: unequivocally that her mother has actively kept from her the

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Speaker 1: fact of her other suicide. She had directly asked, and

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Speaker 1: her mother had said, and I quote, no, no, that

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Speaker 1: didn't happen. She sits on this information for a little

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Speaker 1: while wrestling with it privately. She also doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: cause her mother pain. Sometimes it's easier not to say

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Speaker 1: anything at all. I think I was old enough to think,

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Speaker 1: not like, oh my god, she lied to me. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe she did that, But I think I had

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Speaker 1: the thought, well, there must be a reason she lied

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Speaker 1: about it. There must be a reason she didn't want

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Speaker 1: me to know. I think I was worried about like

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Speaker 1: upsetting her, or I wouldn't say I was scared. I

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Speaker 1: was more nervous to say anything. So I just that's

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Speaker 1: kind of my m O, like nervous. Sometimes if I'm

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Speaker 1: scared or nervous to do something, I just don't do it,

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Speaker 1: or I put it off, or I procrastinate it. So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until a couple of months later when I

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Speaker 1: was actually away. I was in Denver, Colorado, at a

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Speaker 1: training for my Americorp program, and one night, I'm really

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Speaker 1: not sure what inspired me to do it, I just

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Speaker 1: called her. I just was like, I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: this now. And I called her and told her what

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Speaker 1: I found. And I just remember hearing this, not an

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Speaker 1: angry sigh, not a sad sigh, just a I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it was relief or if it was worried

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Speaker 1: or if I don't know what it was, but she

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Speaker 1: just kind of sighed and said, yeah, yeah, that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: And I remember asking her, like, you know, why didn't

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Speaker 1: you tell me? And her response was just, you know,

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Speaker 1: when should I have? There never was a right time.

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Speaker 1: Just I didn't know how to tell a five year

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Speaker 1: old little girl that, and when do I do it

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Speaker 1: when you're ten, when you're fifteen, eighteen twenty one. There

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Speaker 1: never was a right time, and I just never knew

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Speaker 1: when to drop that bomb. And you know, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I get that, that's kind of a nice kind of

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Speaker 1: the way I operate. If I'm scared or I don't

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Speaker 1: know how, I just don't do it. I think I

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Speaker 1: remember being a little bit like you lied to me?

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Speaker 1: Why you lied to me? And I think her response

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Speaker 1: was just kind of I panicked. You know, I didn't

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Speaker 1: expect Jack to call and say anything like that to you.

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Speaker 1: That's not you know, if you ever were to know,

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Speaker 1: that's not the way I wanted you didn't find out.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't mad or anything, but I was grateful that

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Speaker 1: we had that conversation and that she did open up

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Speaker 1: about it, And did she give you any sense of

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Speaker 1: the reason for or the motivation behind your father's suicide.

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Speaker 1: Did she talk about his being in any way unstable

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Speaker 1: or mentally ill or depressed? Not really. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of like my whole life. She didn't speak highly of him,

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Speaker 1: but she also didn't speak poorly of him. She just

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Speaker 1: didn't really speak about him much at all. And I noticed,

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Speaker 1: you know, throughout my life if I had a question

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Speaker 1: about him, where I brought him up, it almost seemed

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Speaker 1: like she kind of like winced or like her body

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Speaker 1: tense stuff. And that communicated to me like maybe I

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Speaker 1: shouldn't bring him up too often because it just seemed

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Speaker 1: like uncomfortable or maybe painful for her. She just said,

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Speaker 1: and that conversation when I was in Denver just that

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Speaker 1: he was very he was very depressed. He was having

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Speaker 1: on her time. But she really didn't give me any

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Speaker 1: kind of details about anything, you know. It's it's also

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Speaker 1: so interesting I think when as children or in families,

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Speaker 1: when we sense that a subject is painful or off limits,

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Speaker 1: or you know, you describe your mother as wincing, that

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Speaker 1: serves to keep us quiet. It serves to you know, like,

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00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 1: not want to cause pain, not want to rock the

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Speaker 1: boat in any way. I think it too was like

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Speaker 1: my mother. I've always just seen her as perfect and strong,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't want to do anything to make her

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Speaker 1: not feel like that or upset her, don't make her

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Speaker 1: feel sad. Lindsey grows up to be a successful adult

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Speaker 1: with a great job. She has the whole story. She

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Speaker 1: knows all there is to know about how she lost

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Speaker 1: her father. She's moved on. If you were to come

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00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 1: across her Facebook page, you'd see whatever she had made

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00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,400
Speaker 1: public on social media, perhaps a few photos and posts,

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Speaker 1: the information that you worked for a nonprofit and it

352
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Speaker 1: graduated from Villanova. You know, so many family secret stories

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Speaker 1: would not have come to light if not for social media,

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Speaker 1: and what you're about to hear next is one of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think with my early thirties, I've got the Facebook

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Speaker 1: message from a man named Brian um Because, a very

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Speaker 1: handsome older man with gray hair and like a gray goatee,

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Speaker 1: And this message said I knew your dad and I

359
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Speaker 1: knew your grandmother. We were friends. It looks like you

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00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: live a really great life right now. I think your

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Speaker 1: dad would be very happy to see that, and when

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00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: I first read it, it caught me off guard because

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00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 1: that my father just wasn't spoken of often really, even

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00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 1: between my brother and I that much. UM and we

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00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 1: didn't see my father there's side of the family very

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00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: often either, So it just wasn't a topic that came

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Speaker 1: up a lot. I thought about it a lot, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something that was like spoken about a lot.

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Speaker 1: So to have this, you know, essentially a stranger send

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Speaker 1: me this message, you know, part of it was just

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00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: it just really caught me off guard, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: really know how to respond to it, so I didn't.

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Speaker 1: And then I asked my mom about the name, and

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Speaker 1: she said, yeah, you don't really have to respond to

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Speaker 1: that person, like you didn't show any kind of emotion

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00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,199
Speaker 1: in her face, didn't just was like, ah, yeah, that

377
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 1: might have been someone from your day's pass and now

378
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 1: you don't have to respond to him. I was like,

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00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 1: all right, So your mother says, no need to get

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00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 1: back to him, so that door gets closed. And then

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Speaker 1: what happens, Well, I guess fast forward maybe like five six,

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00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 1: seven years, and generally the education and training programs that

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00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: I do are around Baltimore City, UM in Baltimore County.

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Speaker 1: But one of my co workers who lives on the

385
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 1: eastern shore of Maryland and she you know, does education

386
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: around there. She was out on medical weave and she

387
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: had this class that she did at facility in Delaware

388
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 1: that supports folks who are in recovery from drives and alcohol.

389
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Speaker 1: And my supervisor was like, hey, listen, I know this

390
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 1: is super far away. It's just once a month. Can

391
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: you cover these until your coworkers out of medical agnostic? Sure,

392
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: no problem. And I had just started to get into

393
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: listening to podcasts, and I was like, amazing, I've got

394
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: like a two plus hour drive, you know, five probably

395
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 1: five hours round trip. I was in my car that

396
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Speaker 1: day and I think that around the times when I

397
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 1: stumbled on your podcast Family Secrets, and I found myself

398
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: so immersed into the episodes and they made the drive

399
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Speaker 1: feel like it was twenty minutes. And I remember pulling

400
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 1: up to the facility on the first class that I

401
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: did there, and I was like, I wish I wish

402
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 1: the driver longer. Um, you know, totally enjoyed my class

403
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: with them, and then I was really excited to get

404
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: back in the car and listen to more and I

405
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 1: found myself really eating with a lot of the guests

406
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 1: that you had, and I thought to myself, Wow, we

407
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: had a family secret, but I already figured mine out,

408
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, finding my father's death certificate. And it started

409
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 1: to make me think, as I heard some of your

410
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: guests say, sometimes when they found out the secret that

411
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: was within their family, the secret keepers had had passed

412
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 1: away and they were not able to ask the questions

413
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Speaker 1: to those people that they wanted to ask. And I'm

414
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: almost finished your book, Dannos, like six pages left. I

415
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: was soping to have it's on before I got on

416
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 1: the call with you today, but I noticed that it

417
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: sounded like that was something for you too. I think

418
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: that you wish you had been able to ask your

419
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: parents about your family secret. So I thought to myself,

420
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 1: you know, my mom doesn't love to talk about my

421
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: father that much. So I really need to start reaching

422
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: out to people that I know and find out some

423
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: more stories, because if I don't find these out, they're

424
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: gonna leave this earth with the people that know them.

425
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: Lindsay is right. That was such a fear and preoccupation

426
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: of mine as well. When I first discovered my family's secret.

427
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: My parents were gone, and they had taken it to

428
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: the grave with them, but there was a great sense

429
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: of urgency to identify and find those who were still

430
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: living and might still know something. Those people started to

431
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: rise to the surface of my consciousness as if they

432
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: had been there all along, just waiting in line for

433
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: some reason. And this message from Brian, like, I never

434
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: forgot about it, I never deleted it, but it came

435
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: back to my mind once in a while, and it

436
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: certainly came back to my mind in those spots, and

437
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I should really respond to them.

438
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, how he knew my dad or

439
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: what kinds of stories he could tell. So I responded

440
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: to him, and he wrote me back almost immediately, and

441
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: I think accidentally tried to call me on Facebook audio

442
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: and remember seeing my phone ring, and I was like,

443
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: oh God, no, I should have done this. Look, oh,

444
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if I wanted. I'm not ready to

445
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: speak at what's happening. I think the message I wrote

446
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: him was something along those lines and not with much detail,

447
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: but you know, I just wanted to reach out and

448
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 1: see if you I'd be willing to speak with me

449
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: on the phone. I would love to hear some stories

450
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: about my father, and he was very willing to do that,

451
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: and so we set up a date to talk. And

452
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: it was a date. I think I did this on

453
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: purpose because I was meeting some friends for brunch and

454
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: the place where we meeting was about four minutes away

455
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: from where I lived. So I made this date to

456
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: call him on my way out there. And I don't

457
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: want to say anxious was what I felt, but it

458
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: was like when, oh my god, that's gonna happen. What

459
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: it's going to be? And when I called him, he

460
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: sounded kind of slightly out of breath a little bit,

461
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: and I kind of gave him like the background that

462
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: I just gave you, you know what prompted me to

463
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: finally respond to the message. He's okay, and you know,

464
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: asked me a few questions about, you know, what did

465
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: you know about your mom and dad's relationship and what

466
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: did you know about your dad? And I kind of

467
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: was like, why is he asking you? I just wanted

468
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: to hear some stories, and he, you know, said okay, okay,

469
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: and he said, well, your dad was gay and he

470
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: and I had an affair. And there it is the

471
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: secret that had been lurking beneath the secret, the first

472
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: secret suicide, the second secret, Lindsay's father's sexuality, and then

473
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: there's more. And I said, what did you say? And

474
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: he repeated himself and I was like wow, He goes,

475
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: did you have any idea? And I said, nope, now

476
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: I didn't. He went on to tell me all sorts

477
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: of stories about how they met, and there were some

478
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: things that were very heartwarming. There were some things that

479
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: were also kind of upsetting and scary, and I think

480
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: gave me a little bit more of you into my

481
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: father's mental health. I would imagine that being five years

482
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: old and losing your father, one has lost someone that

483
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: one has never really gotten to know in a way

484
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: except for these flashes and these childhood memories. And so

485
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: now you're getting this avalanche of information, right, Yeah, that's

486
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: agree way of saying it. It did feel kind of

487
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: like an avalanche, and it wasn't an unwelcomed avalanche. It

488
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: was like, I was kind of like, wow, Okay, this

489
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: is giving me a much broader picture of who my

490
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: dad was, and you know, what he felt like and

491
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: what he went through. And after speaking with Brian and

492
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: you know, I reached out to a few other people,

493
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: and they all said similar things that he I don't

494
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: know that he was ever diagnosed, but that he had

495
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: bipolar disorder. I never saw the depressive states, I think.

496
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 1: I don't know if I saw nannic states or if

497
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: I saw, you know, what he wanted me to see

498
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: or what I wanted to see maybe for that matter.

499
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: But one of the first things he said was your

500
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: father was the most charming and charismatic person I've ever met.

501
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: And he said when they met, they had this just

502
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: instant connection. You know, they met, sat in his car

503
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: and talked for like three hours getting to know each other.

504
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: And how did they meet. They met at a gym.

505
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: I didn't ask too much too many details on like

506
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: you know, how that interaction or who walked up to who,

507
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: or how that went down, But I guess what I pictures.

508
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: They saw each other and kind of their eyes locked

509
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: and went towards each other and just started chatting. But

510
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: of course, even as this beautiful love story is playing out,

511
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: someone is suffering terribly because of it, Lindsay's mother. That's

512
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: what I think was extremely hurtful for my mother is

513
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: that she didn't know about his sexuality and he was

514
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: cheating on my mom with this person. And I think

515
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: after speaking to several family members and Brian and eventually

516
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: my mother. You know, it was the eighties, and I

517
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: think he was struggling with his sexuality and he was

518
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: suppressing who he knew he was because I think he

519
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: wanted to have this kind of stereotypical life of a

520
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: wife and kids and you know, white picket fence. I

521
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: don't think he necessarily felt that in his heart was

522
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: a pent who he was, and that, combined with his

523
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: mental illness, made his internal struggle really, really, really difficult.

524
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: From off. I think it was hard for him to

525
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: just come out and be out and be who he was,

526
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: and this was what the world was extremely homophobic, I

527
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: think back then compared to two thousand twenty, when I

528
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: think folks are a lot more accepting than they were,

529
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, fourty years ago. Did his affair, your father's

530
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: affair with Brian have something to do with your parents divorce?

531
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: It did? Yeah, it was only a couple of weeks ago.

532
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: I finally talked to my mom about everything, and I

533
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: think I was kind of trying to gather my facts

534
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: and find my information before I talked to her. It

535
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: was another thing. I was just nervous to talk to

536
00:28:44,680 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: her about it. We'll be right back. A long time

537
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: elapses between the time Lindsay reaches out to Brian and

538
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: learns more of the truth about her father and when

539
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: she decides to actually tell her mother what she's discovered.

540
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: A phrase comes up. It was never the right time. This,

541
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: you might remember, is what Lindsay's own mother had told

542
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: Lindsay about why she never revealed her father's suicide. It

543
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: was never the right time. This is true of so

544
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: many families and so many secrets. We wait, We think

545
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: that the stars will align, that there will be a

546
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: perfect moment, but there never is. I'm embarrassed to say

547
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: it's almost a year and not quite but almost a year,

548
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: maybe about ten months. I guess I was nervous. I

549
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: was afraid of upsetting her. I'm so close to her.

550
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: I hold her as like one of my best friends.

551
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: She's somebody I feel very lucky to have that relationship

552
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: with her, and I can talk to her about just

553
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: about anything. But I was really nervous to talk to

554
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: to her about this. I think I was afraid of

555
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: retraumatizing her and making her like rehash all this. The

556
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: assumption that I made was that this must have been

557
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: so difficult for her to deal with when she found

558
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: out about his affair that she just kind of tucked

559
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: it away in a little box and put it in

560
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: a closet and was like, I'm never going back there again.

561
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: So I was kind of afraid to reopen that box

562
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: for her. And the timing was never right. It's like,

563
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,239
Speaker 1: if I tell her right away, I'm going to ruin that.

564
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: That could ruin that vacation, and then all the holidays

565
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: are coming up. It's going to ruin the holidays. And

566
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: then we had a trip that we were my husband

567
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: and I. My husband's family lived with parents I should

568
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: say live in Florida, and he and I and my

569
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: mom and stepdad were going down there for like a

570
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: long weekend in February. And I was like, I was

571
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: gonna ruin that trip. And I was St Patrick's weekend.

572
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: My mom and I were supposed to go up to

573
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: New York to stay with her sister for the weekend.

574
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a little tradition we started, I

575
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: guess a year ago, and you know, to see a

576
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: show and TUF dinner and do New Yorkie things, and

577
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: we had to cancel the trip because of Corona, and

578
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: my plan was to talk to her on the train

579
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: ride home because I was like, oh, we'll have at

580
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: least three hours alone together. That's going to be the

581
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: time that I do it. And then we had to

582
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: cancel the trip and I was like, oh my god,

583
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: we're all quarantined. When am I going to have this conversation?

584
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Because it was really important to me to do it

585
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: in person. I just felt like it would be unkind

586
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: or rude or or mean even to just do it

587
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: over the phone. Um. I really wanted to be able

588
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: to do it in person. And then I think when

589
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: I finally got the email from your producer to set

590
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: up a date for this call, well, now, my my taker,

591
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: my time is counting down. I have to do this

592
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: before I have this call. Nothing like a deadline, right right,

593
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: Because I really didn't feel comfortable recording this episode without

594
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: like speaking to her first and making sure that she

595
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: was okay with it, because I guess I kind of

596
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: that it is this is not just my story, this

597
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: is her story. This didn't happen to me, This happened

598
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: to her, or you know, happened to us. One of

599
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: the hot topics that I teach and train about his

600
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: consent and I wanted to make sure that I had

601
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: her consent before I did this. And how did she respond?

602
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: She was very surprised. The only time I've been out

603
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: to a restaurant during all of the social distancing and

604
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: its outdoor seating, we were the only people there, so

605
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: it's very safe. We went to Lebanese to vernon, which

606
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: is delicious. And she had I think, like a chicken swarm,

607
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: a wrap in one hand and her fork in the

608
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: other hand. And I said, I need to talk to

609
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: you about something. And I saw her face kind of drop,

610
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: as I'm sure any mother would when their daughter says that.

611
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: It's like, oh my gosh, what's going to come out

612
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: of my child's face right now? And I gave all

613
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 1: these qualifiers, like I was nervous to bring this up,

614
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: and I wasn't sure how to do it. I don't

615
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: want to upset you. I'm afraid Joe be mad at me.

616
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: And I talked to a man named Brian. She dropped

617
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: her wrap and she dropped her fork and went, oh really,

618
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: I would both had sunglasses on, but she almost looked

619
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: like scared, and that made me feel awful because I didn't,

620
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't want upset or I didn't want

621
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: to make her mad. Kind of jumped in and said,

622
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what that must have been like for you.

623
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve it.

624
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: And I was just wondering if we could talk about it,

625
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: and she kind of like I could see her relaxed slightly,

626
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: and then she kind of dropped her guard and really

627
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: just kind of shared everything. It sounded like with me

628
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: with what happened. Do you think maybe after holding that

629
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: for so many years that there was some relief? Well,

630
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: I asked her that, I mean it turned into a

631
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: three hour lunch and I said, towards the end, how

632
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: are you feeling? How do you feel? Do you feel relieved?

633
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: And she said kind of, I feel like I should

634
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: feel relieved, but I don't fully feel that. And I

635
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, maybe I shouldn't have done this,

636
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: and she went on to say, I don't know if

637
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: I feel relieved because I don't really think about this

638
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: much anymore. She said, I've done a lot of work

639
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: on myself, and I think I've moved past it to

640
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: the point where I don't really think about it much anymore.

641
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: What happened with Brian, You've had a you know, an

642
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: ongoing connection with him. I think he in fact, I

643
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: was able to share some stories and give some insight

644
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: onto who my father was and what he was like

645
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: that I don't know that I would have found out otherwise.

646
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: After I had that initial conversation with him, I then

647
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: was like, you know, immediately reached out to my brother

648
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: and he was just kind of what what our father

649
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: to my brother was kind of almost like this phantom

650
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: person that he doesn't really remember. And after I spoke

651
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: with him, I reached out to my dad's sister and

652
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: we set up a time to speak. And I really

653
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: wish that some of these conversations I had had in person,

654
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: because I kind of wanted to see their facial expressions.

655
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: But I was so nervous for all these different conversations

656
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: with people, and come to find out, they were expecting

657
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 1: me to ask this. So I called my dad's sister,

658
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, so such this time to speak, and I

659
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: again because I was nervous, you know, gave all this beginning.

660
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: So I had a minute, you know, kind of doing

661
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: some finding some stories and I told her what I

662
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: found out and she said, Lindsay, I've been waiting over

663
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: thirty years for you to ask me about this, and she,

664
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: you know, shared a whole lot. And then I called

665
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: my godfather, who was good friends with my father, and

666
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: he said something similar. And I told my brother about

667
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: all this, and he said, do you think we're the

668
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: only people in the family that I don't know? And

669
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, that hadn't occurred to me, but yeah,

670
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: I think you might be right. And my brother was

671
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: working for about six weeks in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and

672
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: Brian lives in Florida, not far from where MITI was working.

673
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure which one of them got in

674
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: touch with each other first, but and I'm not sure

675
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: who proposed the idea, but they decided to meet up

676
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: in person. And MITCHI called me and told me that,

677
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: and I said, do you want me to book a

678
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: ticket and come with you? And he was, this is

679
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: a really big deal. I said, I know, Do you

680
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: want me to book a ticket and come down? And

681
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: he goes, this is a really big deal and he said, okay,

682
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: I'll book you think getting come down so his wife

683
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: and I flew down and we met up with Brian

684
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: for lunch the next day. And you know, I shared

685
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: all of this with my mom. I told her everything

686
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: at the lunch that we had, and I think it

687
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: was hurtful for her to hear that. Mitchell and I

688
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: went and met this man that our father had an

689
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: affair on her with. But he was so open and

690
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: so honest and shared so many stories. But you know,

691
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: good and bad. Remember, Lindsay's father was a magician, and

692
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: as a magician, he had certain tools of his trade,

693
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: white doves and a white rabbit he used in his shows.

694
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: Ryan tells Lindsay a story that must have been terribly

695
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: hard to hear about an argument that two of them

696
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: had at one point, one that illustrates just how much

697
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: mental anguish Lindsay's dad must have been dealing with. He

698
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: was so angry that he picked up his rabbit and

699
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: he threw it against the wall and killed it. I

700
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: don't say that to speak poorly at my father, to

701
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: make him sound like a scary monster person, but that

702
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: was his mental illness acting out and making him make

703
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: that choice. So Brian shared things like that with us,

704
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: but he also shared, you know, like your father was

705
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: so charismatic and everyone loved him. And Brian even went

706
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: on to tell us that he was actually in a

707
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: relationship with somebody with a man when he met our father,

708
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: and you know, it was also having kind of an

709
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: affair of his own. But Brian said, if this speaks

710
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: anything to the charisma that your father had, said, my

711
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: partner even got to be friends with your dad, like

712
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: your dad even won him over, And I was like, wow,

713
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of surreal. It was a meeting

714
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: that was a story I never thought I would hear.

715
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: I feel guilty saying this because I know my mom

716
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: would not like to hear me say this, but I'm

717
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: grateful for the experience and it was just, I guess,

718
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: kind of a beautiful thing to meet somebody who knew

719
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: our dad on such a deep level. How do you

720
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: think that knowing all this now impact too? Are you glad?

721
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: You know? I am glad. I know I think all

722
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: of the processing and talked to some of my friends

723
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: about the story and my husband, my brother. I'm glad

724
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: that I know. And several people have said to me like,

725
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: are you mad at your mom for not telling you?

726
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: And I said, I'm not mad at her at all.

727
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: I have nothing but admiration, if not, you know, more

728
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: than I had before that she went through this, and

729
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: she gave me her version of things. She had no

730
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: idea that anything like this was going on. My dad

731
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: often would say he was working late and then would

732
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: moment like three o'clock in the morning, or you know,

733
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: he wouldn't come home at all. She would call a

734
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: hospitals and I seem an accident like what happened. She said.

735
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: He took her to see a play and the plot

736
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: of the play was about a man and a woman

737
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: that were married, and the man was gay and cheating

738
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: on her with other men. And she said it was

739
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: at that play that she was like, oh my god,

740
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: oh my god, oh my god, this is what's happening

741
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: in my marriage. And she maybe this is where I

742
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: got my private investigation skills from. But she she did

743
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: some snooping up her own and found some some things

744
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 1: that confirmed us for her, and confronted him and said,

745
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: I want to divorce. I know what's going on. This

746
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: is this relationship will go no further. And I think

747
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: just the way that she raised us, she didn't she

748
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: could have just bashed him every day to us. If

749
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: she wanted to, she could have put awful visions of

750
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: our father in our heads. And she didn't. You know,

751
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: she just didn't speak about it much at all. And

752
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: she picked herself up and she kept going, which I

753
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: think must have been so to be hard to have

754
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: two tiny children and then have your husband cheating on you,

755
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: and you know, I have no idea what's going on,

756
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: and then it's I just I can't imagine what that

757
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: must have been like for her, and to have to

758
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: make that choice of no, we're done, we will be

759
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: no longer. But she just kept going. And I told

760
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: her when we had lunch, I said, I have so

761
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: much admiration for you. You're so strong. You could have

762
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,479
Speaker 1: started drinking, you could have started doing drugs, you could

763
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: have done a million things to cope with this. But

764
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: you just got up every day. You got us up,

765
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: every day, you took care of us, you went to work.

766
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: I had no idea that my mom ever went through

767
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: anything like this. There were no clues, there were no

768
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: mutterings or utterings of anything along these lines. So I

769
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: said that to her, and she said, well, what else

770
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: was I going to do? I had two kids. I

771
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: needed to focus on the good and I needed to

772
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 1: move forward and make sure you guys were taken care

773
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,439
Speaker 1: of and and raise well. The homophobia of the era

774
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: also played a significant part in Lindsay's mom's decision not

775
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: to tell her kids the truth, and Lindsay's understanding of

776
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: the choices her mother made and her reasons for them

777
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: have brought the two of them even closer together. So ultimately,

778
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: this is a story that contains tragedy, sorrow, secrecy, and loss,

779
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: but also a deepening love between a mother and a daughter.

780
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: I said to her, why didn't you tell us? And

781
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: I was kind of expecting the same answer, as you know,

782
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: there never was a right time, and that's part of

783
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: what she said. But she also said she was worried

784
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: about telling us the whole truth because she was afraid

785
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: that we would get bullied because people were not accepting

786
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 1: of folks in the LGBTQ community then. And I was like, wow,

787
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: that never occurred to me as as a reason for

788
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: why she wouldn't have told us. And then I think

789
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: as time moved forward, it was kind of again like

790
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: when's the right time? How do I share this with them?

791
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: And if she had told us when we were kids,

792
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: we probably would have just accosted her every day with

793
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: like a million and one questions, kind of making her

794
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: relive all of this over and over and over again.

795
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: So I think it was a combination of trying to

796
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: protect us and also trying to protect yourself. That makes

797
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: me think of another kind of thematic family secrets thing

798
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: that runs through a lot of stories, which is that

799
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: what we find out and when we find it out,

800
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: I have a lot to do with how we're going

801
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: to be able to process or how a family is

802
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: able to process a secret having been kept, and that

803
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: this is a secret that came out in the fullness

804
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: of time, kind of when everybody could handle everything about it. Yeah,

805
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: that's definitely how I've looked at it, Like I'm grateful

806
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: to to have found out when I did, because I

807
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: think I'm enough of an adult to be able to

808
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: process that in a healthy and normal way. I don't

809
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: know how I would have processed that if I found

810
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: it when I was five, when I was ten, when

811
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: I was fifteen, you know, I don't know how my

812
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: brain would have handled that. The one other thing that

813
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: occurs to me is, as you're talking about your mother

814
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: is that this is actually I mean your your love

815
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: for her mother is so clear, and your respect for her.

816
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: This is a way of actually knowing her better and

817
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: having even more dimensionality to her for you. Yeah, I

818
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: think knowing all this and also finally hearing her version

819
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: of everything, it just makes me want to cuddle her

820
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: up and hug her forever. You know, when you think

821
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: you can't love a person more and then you find

822
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: you do. I guess that's kind of my reaction to it.

823
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: And I know it's weird for me to say I'm

824
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: proud of her, but I am proud of her. I

825
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: think for like I said earlier, getting up every day

826
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: and keeping a routine and raising her kids with love

827
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: and kindness and moving forward in her life. Everybody has

828
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: their own different version of the story and different kind

829
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: of interactions with each other. But yeah, I think it

830
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: gave us kind of a new maybe moved us to

831
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: like a new level in our relationship where we can

832
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: talk to each other about this. And it really felt

833
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: like it almost felt like when she when we were

834
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: at lunch and she was telling me everything. We were

835
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: friends like. It wasn't a daughter mother dynamic. It was

836
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: if we were friends, and feeling that didn't make me

837
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: feel nervous or panic to kind of made me feel

838
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: even closer to her that we have not only a

839
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: mother daughter relationship, but also a really strong foundation of friendship.

840
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: Family Secrets is an i Heeart Media production. Dylan Fagan

841
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: is the supervising producer and Bethan Mcaluso is the executive producer.

842
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: We'd also like to give a special thanks to Tyler

843
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: Klang and Tristan McNeil. If you have a family secret

844
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: you'd like to share, leave us a voicemail and your

845
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number is

846
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: one eight eight secret zero. That's secret and then the

847
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: number zero. You can also find us on Instagram at

848
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: Danny Ryder and face book at facebook dot com slash

849
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: Family Secrets Pot, and Twitter at fami secrets Pot. For

850
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the i Heart

851
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

852
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: favorite shows.