1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Believe in yourself. You know, it's a piece of advice 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: we hear a lot, but for many of us, it 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: takes years, if not a lifetime, to actually get there. 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: And then there are those rare folks, immensely talented and 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: hard working, who somehow always knew that they would be somebody. Today, 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: I have the pleasure of speaking with two people who 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: believed in themselves from the get go. Later we'll hear 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: from the incredibly talented actor, director, and choreographer Andre de Shields. 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: But first I'm talking to multiple Grammy Award winning singer 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: and songwriter Brandy Carlisle. I first discovered Brandy back in 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: when she performed her song The Joke at the Grammy Awards. 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: That year, she was nominated four six, yes six Grammys 15 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: for her album By the Way I Forgive You. I 16 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: immediately tracked down as much of her music as I could, 17 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: and I've been a fan ever since. Brandy grew up 18 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: in rural Washington State with very young parents who struggled 19 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: to make a living and provide a stable home, but 20 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: she was also surrounded by a lot of love and 21 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: a lot of music. She's drawn on those roots to 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: build a beautiful family of her own with her wife 23 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: Catherine and their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. Brandy writes 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: about all of this in her memoir titled Broken Horses, 25 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: and that's where I wanted to start our conversation by 26 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: asking her what it was like to pull up those memories, 27 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: the good, the bad, the wonderful and right this incredibly open, 28 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: revealing and compelling book. I had always kind of mind 29 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: my past for experience and songwriting and things like that, 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: but just in a little random bursts without the detail, 31 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: you know. But when I actually really sat down and 32 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: kind of meditated on it, everything came back smells and 33 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 1: floral prints on couches and you know, whatever vehicle we 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: happened to have at that time, and just my childhood 35 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: became really clear and really vivid, and it poured out 36 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: of me. I didn't hesitate. I didn't worry about what 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: I was saying about mom or Dad or you know, 38 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: my brother and sister, or the way that we lived 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: or what was going on and our lives at that time. 40 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: I didn't think about embarrassment because I think in the 41 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: back of my mind, I knew I could always go 42 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: and take anything out, I could edit anything, and then 43 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: I just didn't from what I read um not only 44 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: about your parents, but your grandparents aunts uncle's. Yeah, there 45 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: was a lot of love, there was a lot of fun, 46 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of unpredictability, instability and chaos. 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: That's true. How would you describe your mom and your dad? 48 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: You emphasize how young they were. Yeah, they were, and 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: in some ways and that I mean, this is a compliment. 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: Are very young, and there's an energy about them and 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: that endless opportunities for adventure and fun and honestly mostly chaos. 52 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: There was always this kind of undercurrent of like, well, 53 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: we're different and we don't have to do things the 54 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: way other people do them. And it was like a 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: little bit like that film, you know, Captain Fantastic. There 56 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: was a lot of late night discussion and I was 57 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: privy to a lot of things that I don't know 58 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: if I needed to be privy to. But I was 59 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: also given great wisdom and insight at a really young age, 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: and for some reason, I just feel like I knew 61 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: what to do with it, and that kind of narrative 62 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: of like we're different, it we live different was what 63 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: made not being at the same schools or having a 64 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: lot of different houses, or a little bit of upheaval 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: not just okay, but what I thought would be a 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: preferable way to grow up. And looking back on it, 67 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't feel that way now. 68 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: I feel a pull all the time to raise my 69 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: kids eccentrically with a little bit of chaos, a little 70 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: bit of spontaneity, a little bit and we don't know 71 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. And um my wife makes me resistant. 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: But I don't want to leave your childhood yet because 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: you also describe the very serious illness you had as 74 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: what a four year old? Can you talk about that? Yeah, 75 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: when I was four years old, I contracted meninji kockumaningitis 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: and presented as really, really sick. But my mother was 77 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: really young, I want to say, like twenty at the time, 78 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: and I knew right away that something was wrong. But 79 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: she was the kind of mom where she thought something 80 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: was wrong all the time. You know, she had the 81 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: speed dial if they even had that, you know, in 82 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: night what would two four nurse? And she told my 83 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: dad that something was really wrong, and you know, he 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: didn't believe her, and my mom was on the phone 85 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: with two four nurse and two foreign nurse asked my 86 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: mom to have me touch my chin to my chest, 87 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: which I guess is like the telltale sign that somebody 88 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: could have meningitis, and it made me pass out and 89 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: I just remember waking up in the backseat of the 90 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: car on my way to the emergency room and wound 91 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: up being in the hospital in a coma for um 92 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: quite some time before I came to and didn't get 93 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: out of there until after my fifth birthday, and um, 94 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: there's still a bit of trauma, I think for both 95 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: my parents, but mostly I think my mother about thinking 96 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: that I wasn't going to pull through that, and it 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: gave me a sense of specialness. You know, I was 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: the first grandchild on both sides of the family, and 99 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: and everybody had this kind of Brandy's got a mission thing, 100 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: and it gave me a quite inflated sense of selving. 101 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: What was your earliest memory of making or listening to music, 102 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: because the other part of the book, which I love 103 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: is that you had a somewhat musical family, and I 104 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: see pictures in the book of you as a really 105 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: little kid, all dressed up, You're on stage, you're singing. 106 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: What are your earliest memories. There's music on both sides 107 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: of my family, country music and blue grass mostly. My 108 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: dad's father played dobro and followed blue grass bands around 109 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: in his RV, and I didn't get to spend much 110 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: time with him musically. He was a quiet guy that 111 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: you know. But on my mom's side of the family, 112 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: her dad was a cigar salesman and a country music 113 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: singer and yodeler, and he was a very outward personality, 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: big influence that I think about in here in my 115 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: head all the time to this day. But he died 116 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: really young, of a l s which is the worst 117 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: season the world. And uh, when he died, kind of 118 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: the last thing he in, whether he knew it or not, 119 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: was light a fire in my mother to continue on 120 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: the music. And she did. She took all that grief 121 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: and that little bit of money and got a p 122 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: a system and put together a band and started singing 123 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: and thought to include me and my brother. And so 124 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: I was like seven or eight years old the first 125 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: time I got on stage and sang a Roseanne Cash song. 126 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: Tennessee flat top box at this place called the Northwest 127 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: grand Ole Opry And I just want to be a cowgirl. 128 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: I love that. Well. I also really love your mother's 129 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: gutsiness that she got that p a system and put 130 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: herself up there. That is really making yourself vulnerable. And 131 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: I think it's another real tribute to her as a 132 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: mom that she knew to include you. Yeah, and she 133 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: was really good. She looked great, huge hair, you know, 134 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: she fixed my hair and put our clothes together and everything, 135 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: and she just yeah, she'd always tell me she'd be 136 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: sit in the front or I just going move, Brandy, 137 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: move your body, stop wrapping them cord around your hand. 138 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: Oh god, we're taking a quick break. Stay with us. 139 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: The other thing about your upbringing is that you know 140 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: you grew up in a religious family and a religious community. Um. 141 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: And I really like the way that faith and spirituality 142 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: run through your story like yours. Yeah, like mine exactly, 143 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: and how it evolves. And it was so touching to 144 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: me and heartbreaking to read your description about a pastor 145 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: refusing to baptize you. I guess because he knew you 146 00:08:54,360 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: were gay and insisted that you renounce, literally renounce your self. 147 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: In order to be baptized, and you rightly refused to 148 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: do that. Can you tell that story? Yeah, he really 149 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: knew I was gay. Like That's really one of the 150 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: hardest nuances about that stories, that he really knew I 151 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: was gay. Like I was totally unapologetic about it. I 152 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: presented that way. I brought my little girlfriend to church 153 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: for some reason. I don't know why. I didn't expect that. Um, 154 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: it was in the sermons, it was in the subtext. 155 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: You know, I did have a sense of audacity that 156 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: I can't I would love to reconnect with actually, um, 157 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: but yeah he did. And there was like a well, 158 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: the Baptists are very big by the way on public 159 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: declarations converting to possible public humiliation. And I already liked 160 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: being on stage. So you know, I went up to 161 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: the front of the church and on one Sunday and 162 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: said I'd like to be baptized, was applauded and hugged 163 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: and given a schedule of you know, going to lunch 164 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: with the pastor and learning the things I need to 165 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: learn in the scriptures and understanding what going to take place, 166 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: inviting people, and then got to the church that day 167 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: to be baptized. And our talent and our family and 168 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: our friends kind of filled the church. And the pastor 169 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: at the last minute asked me, which was I thought 170 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: was really strange, asked me if I, quote unquote practiced homosexuality, 171 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: and I just remember this furrowed brow looking at him. 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm I'm gay. I'm coming to 173 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: church with my girlfriend, you know, and that we go 174 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: we go into pizza Hut yesterday, like you know, you know, 175 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: and chose that moment to tell me that he wasn't 176 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: going to baptize me. And I had to kind of 177 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: run out the church in front of everyone. And it's 178 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: probably one of the biggest humiliations in my life. Without 179 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: trying to wrap it up into a attractive box and 180 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: say that everything's fine now, without that experience, I wouldn't 181 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: have known how much support actually had, how upset the 182 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: people that came to see that happen for me. We're 183 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: help set, my dad was, and I always felt I 184 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: was kind of gay ninety is accepted, you know, kind 185 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: of like we accept this, but don't put it into 186 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: our face kind of thing. Until that day and everybody 187 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: becoming so upset, I felt, you know, more seen in 188 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: that way than I ever had before, also more rejected 189 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: than I ever had before. But um, it pushed me 190 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: into another life that I needed to be pushed into. 191 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: But also from that time forward, you really threw yourself 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: into your music. And thinking back to being put on 193 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the stage as this, you know, little girl, three decades 194 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: of performing and of writing, how has your relationship to 195 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: music evolved over that period of time. Well, I don't know. 196 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the moment that music became 197 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: mine and I just I had to really separate my 198 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: soul from some things, you know, And so I started 199 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: getting interested in getting on airplane. I started getting interested 200 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: in going to a big city, meeting different kinds of people, 201 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: and less and less interested in country music. I remember 202 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: that night of my botched baptism. I call it putting 203 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: my little CD player Jeff Buckley's Grace on repeat on Hallelujah, 204 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: just over and over and over and over again, and 205 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: occurring to me like I want to leave, and I 206 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: want to write. I want to write a song like this. 207 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: I don't care if it's a twelve minute song, a 208 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: longer song for a longer story. But I also love 209 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: the way that you found some extraordinary music icons that 210 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: became mentors. I mean the kind of relationship that you 211 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: describe with Alton John from a far, far distance. There 212 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: you are in Washington State, Alton's you know, in England 213 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: or Atlanta or wherever you might be, and you are 214 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: discovering this extraordinary human being, to say nothing of his 215 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, almost cosmic talent. I fall in love with 216 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: Elton John over a six fifth sixth grade book report 217 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: about Ryan White, never hearing a note. I loved him 218 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: because of his contribution to this boy's life. Who died 219 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: I think it was it's in the nineties. He died 220 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: of AIDS. He had hemophilia. He contracted AIDS through a 221 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: blood transfusion. I did a book report on him in school. 222 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: I chose the book myself. You didn't even know what 223 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: the book was about. I just saw a cute boy 224 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: on the book and I picked it up in the 225 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: school library and I did a book report. And in 226 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: the end of the book, he befriends this British gay 227 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: rock star. He's being politicized, He's being asked to become 228 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: the poster child for the church as a person affected 229 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: by you know, sin in the world created by home 230 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: sexual men. And this was a subtext that I had 231 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: been taught in church, and was was thinking about this 232 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: and talking about this a lot in my own home. 233 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: And here's this new perspective in a book the God. 234 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: And in the end he meets this rock star, and 235 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: this rock star has got a couple of songs that 236 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: are mentioned in the book, and he sings a song 237 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: at this kid's funeral called Skyline Pigeon. And I went 238 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: to the King County Library and checked out the CD 239 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: here and now Elton John c D a couple other 240 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: Elton John c ds in a book by Philip Norman 241 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: Elton John, Elton John, and I dove into this rock star. 242 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: And before I ever heard him saying, I was already 243 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: obsessed with him. And then I heard Skyline Pigeon. And 244 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: then I heard Funeral for a friend and Benny and 245 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: the Jets, and I just I went in to everything 246 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: Elton John. By the time I was like fourteen, there 247 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a square inch of my bedroom walls that weren't 248 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: covered with Elton John memorabilia. I made homemade Elton John jewelry, 249 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: and um I began playing piano. My parents got me 250 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: an eighty dollar toys, rus Cassio keyboard and totally changed 251 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: my life. And yeah, now he's like, he's my friend, 252 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: he is your friend. But Ryan White died in nineteen nine, 253 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: and he had such a an amazing effect on so 254 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: many people. You know, there eventually was a piece of legislation, 255 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: the Ryan White Act, to provide more support resources for 256 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: people living with HIV AIDS, and Alton just connected so 257 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: immediately with this, you know, young boy from Indiana. But 258 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: neither Ryan nor his mother ever allowed people if they 259 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: could stop it using them in a negative way. I mean, 260 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: they were bighearted, they were open minded. And I want 261 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: to just make one other point. You got that book 262 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: about Ryan White in your school library. There are people 263 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: right now who want to take a book like that 264 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: out of public school libraries. You know, impressionable children shouldn't 265 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: be learning about Ryan White. You know, it's just another 266 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: perfect example among countless examples of why, you know, we 267 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: have to stand up for the right of kids to 268 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, seek out and find information, and obviously your 269 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: school library is one of the best ways to do that. 270 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: When and how did you finally meet Elton in person? 271 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: First of all, that's a really really good point. And 272 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: books like that that I had access to in my 273 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: school sculpted a lot of things about my life. And 274 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: that's just one of the many that gave me, you know, 275 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: the worldview that propelled me forward in really really big ways. 276 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: I love that you made that point. What was this 277 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: was the second question? So when and where did you 278 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: meet Elton? Okay? So I met Elton, just like you'd 279 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: hope I would, in a Las Vegas casino basement recording studio. 280 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: He called me like ten years prior to that, or 281 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: it gives me five years prior to that when I 282 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: put out put out the story, but I hadn't met 283 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: him yet, and I always wanted to meet him. I 284 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: wrote him a letter when I made my album give 285 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: Up the Ghost and asked him to play piano in 286 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: one of my songs, and he just he called me 287 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: up and said, yeah, can you get to Vegas? So 288 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: I did, and I just never forget it because I 289 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: remember coming down this corridor and I could hear him 290 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: talking and I had all of the every live VHS 291 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: tape that he had ever recorded, every interview, and I'm like, 292 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: oh my god, that's Elton. I'm gonna walk around the 293 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: corner and I'm gonna see Elton John sitting there, And 294 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: I did, and he was sitting there in a track suit, 295 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: and he just gave me an enormous hug and then 296 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: stayed with me all day for four hours, just talk 297 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: to me about music. Just gave me everything that I 298 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: could have ever hoped to be given by meeting my 299 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: very worthy hero. By the time I got home, he'd 300 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: sent me a hundred CDs with sticky notes. Oh, talk 301 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: about the day that you found out you were the 302 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: most nominated woman of the nineteen Grammys. Described that because 303 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: to me, it just blended so much about what your 304 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: life is like right now. I mean it was the 305 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: middle of the night because we're on the West Coast, 306 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: and I just the phone call that from relative obscurity 307 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the Grammys, I have been nominated for 308 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: six of them, and I was just in total disbelief. 309 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be a watershed moment. 310 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: I knew it was going to change my life, and 311 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: it really did. It was my my publicistant friend, Osha, 312 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: She's just like they just kept saying your name. You know. 313 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: I wasn't even awake. It was pitch dark, and I 314 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: woke up everybody in my house. And but you know, 315 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you know because you're a Grammy winner, right, Yeah, 316 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: that's right for the spoken word, that's true. Where's your 317 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: brily I'm looking for in the background. I don't see it. 318 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: I have it in our our library. It's part of history. Okay, Well, 319 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: before we go, I have to ask you. I know 320 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: you love fishing, and you know you you write in 321 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: the book nothing's really ever got ahold of me the 322 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: way fishing and music cab. Okay, what is the biggest 323 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: fish you've ever caught? And was it the same feeling 324 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: you had when you got all those Grammys? It was 325 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: the same feeling, I mean nearly identical, because, as I 326 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: said in the book, fishing is merely an attempt to 327 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: connect to something that you know is there but but 328 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: can't see a perpetual series of occasions for hope. The 329 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: biggest fish I ever caught was in Alaska on the 330 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Kenai River. It's a forty three pound king salmon. That's 331 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: one big fish. You know. I've actually fished for salmon 332 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: in Alaska and those fish are big. They are big, 333 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: and they're delicious too. Did they pack your fish and 334 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: prepare it so that you could go and eat it later. 335 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: I prepared it. You prepare it, no, girl, But you 336 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: know something about that. Huh. Oh my gosh. But I 337 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: also love I mean your your definition of fishing is 338 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: almost like a perfect definition of faith. I'm gonna I'm 339 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: gonna remember that. I think that that's exactly what I 340 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: parallel it with. Well, Brandy Carlisle, I cannot thank you enough. 341 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: This was such a true delight. Do you have any 342 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: parting words or any yeah I singing words or anything 343 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: you want to leave us with. I cannot tell you 344 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: how much talking to you today has has meant to me. 345 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: And I almost can't do anything else for the rest 346 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: of the day now. I just I think that you 347 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: are such a special person. You're such a gift to 348 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: the world. You've been a gift in my life. You 349 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: know the song we keep skimming over, the joke that 350 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: I sang at the Grammys. I wrote that first line 351 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: in the second verse about you. Oh I'm getting over 352 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: a colt, So I'm gonna do my best. You get discouraged, 353 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: don't you. Girl. It's your brother's world for a little while, longer, 354 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: a little while, just a little while, not too much 355 00:20:54,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank You. Randy Carlyle's memoir is Broken Horses. 356 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: One of my favorite shows on Broadway in recent years 357 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: is the Tony Award winning Best Musical Hades Town. In 358 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: this modern retelling of Orpheus and Eriticy, the character of 359 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: Herme's messenger to the gods carries us through the entire show, 360 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: and who better to play a god than the larger 361 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: than life personality Andrea de Shields. Following a shutdown during 362 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: the pandemic, Hades Town is up and running again with 363 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: Andrea at the Helm. But this is just the latest 364 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: chapter in his long and glorious history. At age seventy six, 365 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: Andre has been performing in the theater for over fifty years, 366 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: starting with his professional debut in the hit rock musical 367 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: Hair back in nineteen sixty nine and I hate to 368 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: tell you that I actually saw it way back then. 369 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: But since then he's appeared on film and TV and 370 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: in more musicals like The Whiz and Ain't Misbehavior. Three 371 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: Tony Award nominations and one win later, He's truly a 372 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: living legend of the stage. Andre was born in the 373 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: nineteen forties and grew up in Baltimore as the ninth 374 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: of eleven siblings. His mother was a domestic worker, his 375 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: father was a tailor. The stories he tells of how 376 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: he got from there to hear always believing in himself 377 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: along the way, or an inspiration to anyone with a 378 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: dream of making it, of making something that you really 379 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: can be proud of. I was so delighted to speak 380 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: with him. Good morning, Oh, good morning. I love your 381 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: red background. Wow. We may not know this, it's my aura. 382 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: I can understand that, my friend. You know, I was privileged, 383 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: as you know, to see you in Hades Town for 384 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: which you won a Tony in as you marked your 385 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of working on the stage. And I want 386 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning because I want our 387 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: listeners to have a little idea of where you know 388 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: you come from, what your roots are. I think it's 389 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: really a great American story, but it's more a tribute 390 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: to your energy and your resilience and your determination in 391 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: your aura. So what type of kid were you? Andre? 392 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: Were you shy? Were you somebody who liked attention? I 393 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 1: know you were one of eleven kids. My roots are 394 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: in Baltimore, Maryland, and I would not describe myself as shy, 395 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: m I would describe myself as secretly ambitious. I come 396 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: from meager beginnings and that was my impetus to achieve. 397 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: There were very few of us who lived in the 398 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: inner most of the inner cities in Baltimore who dared 399 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: to dream. We were not encouraged to dream. We were 400 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: not encouraged to be ambitious. We were not encouraged to 401 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: think that we could have a slice of the vaunted 402 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: American pie. But that was my first conscious thought. I 403 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: want my slice of the American pie. Did anyone in 404 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: your family know about your dream? Encourage your dreams? Everyone 405 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: knew about my dream. I shared it with everyone I 406 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: wanted to be Sammy Davis Jr. Who arguably is the 407 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: greatest entertainer of However, the response was, oh, you must 408 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: be out of your mind. So when I didn't get 409 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: the visceral support, I thought, well, let me put this 410 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: in my vest, close to my heart. Let me keep 411 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: it there so it wouldn't be sullied. So Andrew, tell 412 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: us about your parents. They clearly had some kind of 413 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: influence on you, as all parents do one way or 414 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: the other. And tell us about that. When I was 415 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: old enough to have an adult conversation with my mother 416 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: and father. My mother shared with me that her life's 417 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: dream was to be a chorus girl, and I thought 418 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: what she said, Yes, she didn't use the term dances. 419 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: She said chorus girl, my parents having been born around 420 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century. And I said, so, 421 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: what happened? Her response was her father said to her, 422 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: no decent colored daughter of mine is going to shuffle 423 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: her way through life. We've hardly shuffled our way off 424 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: the plantation. Now that is very meaningful for me because 425 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: my maternal grandfather was the son of his master. So 426 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: I decided, with that information I should ask my father amazingly, 427 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: but in retrospect, not amazingly at all. His response was, 428 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: his life dream was he wanted to be a singer. 429 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: He had a beautiful tone of voice, and he sang 430 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: in church, and he had a club that he's sang with. 431 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: And I said, well, what happened to that dream? He said, 432 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: his father, my paternal grandfather, said, how do you expect 433 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: to be a responsible husband and father with such an 434 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: irresponsible career. I tell that story because what happened is 435 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: that both my parents deferred their dreams. I believe that 436 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: I am the manifestation of those deferred dreams, because from 437 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: the morning on a cold January day that I was 438 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: evicted from my mother's womb, that was imprinted on my spirit. 439 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: You are the manifestation of the deferred reams of your parents. 440 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: I've never had a question about my path in life. 441 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: That's a great manifestation. I knew that in order to 442 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: overcome these invisible but seemingly insurmountable walls that we build 443 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: around ourselves when we are constantly told that we cannot achieve, 444 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: and that there is a demarcation in the society that 445 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: says you stay where you are. There is no mobility 446 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: right right, And you know, sadly it is as you 447 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: just said, sometimes from the people that you're living with, 448 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: people who love you, who are afraid for you, and 449 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: they want to protect you. They want to protect you, 450 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: and they unfortunately often evidence that in a way that 451 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, kind of tries to pull you down or 452 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: push you back so that you don't get out into 453 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: that world where you will get hurt. And then, of course, 454 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: on the receiving end, you've got people who are you know, 455 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: not expecting much or who are outright, you know, prejudiced, 456 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: and biased against you and your dream. I want to 457 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: say something about protecting people. I know it is meant 458 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: for good, but you cannot protect an individual from himself. 459 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: You cannot protect an individual from his ambition. You cannot 460 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: protect an individual from his destiny. You have to encourage 461 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: an individual, especially when when he's young. You must say 462 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: go forth and being the most authentic individual that you can. 463 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: I want to ask one one last question about this. 464 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: So when was the first time you performed in public 465 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: and you knew that the dream was not just a 466 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: dream you kept close to your heart, it could be 467 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: your reality. After the dream that I was protecting, I 468 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: had the epiphany, and that was seeing the film Cabin 469 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: in the Sky. M John Bubbles so Black. When I 470 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: saw his performance in Cabin in the Sky, the quiet 471 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: voice that lives in the core of our souls and 472 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: speaks to us only the truth, said to me, Andre, 473 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: that's what you're going to do, because all of a 474 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: sudden you had an epiphany, because you know, there's that 475 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: old saying you can't be what you can't see exactly, 476 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: and you saw it. I saw it so as a 477 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: young precaution Negro boy in Bolt. You know about the 478 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: Society of Friends. They came to me through the Central 479 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: Scholarship Bureau and said, you're a young man with potential. 480 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: We would like to offer you a scholarship to go 481 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: to college. The condition is that you must attend the 482 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: college of our choice. I jumped at the opportunity, the 483 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: first child in the family to go to college. Wilmington's 484 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: College in Williamington, Ohio, a pristine, intimate Quaker school. And 485 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: when I was going to college, and I know you 486 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: remember this, it was Derek to do your junior year abroad. 487 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: I did my junior year in Denmark. And when I 488 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: arrived in Denmark, I was received as the very opposite 489 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: to the way I had been treated in Baltimore. In Baltimore, 490 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: in many ways, I was discumming the earth, and I'm 491 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: not exaggerating. In Denmark, I was royalty. Can I touch 492 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: your skin? Can I touch your Can I touch your hair? 493 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. There was It blew my mind. It 494 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: opened my eyes to not only the place in which 495 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: I had arrived, but the place from where I had come. 496 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: And at that time, all the major cities were experiencing 497 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: their urban insurrections. And I thought to myself that's where 498 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: I come from. So when I returned, I have to 499 00:32:53,800 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: leave that pristine Quaker environment and go to where the 500 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: veil was being ripped from the eyes of political America. 501 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: So I ended up at the University of Wisconsin, one 502 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: of the hot ded's a political change. Really did you 503 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: jump right right right the But what an incredible realization 504 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: that you had about yourself and your life as a 505 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: relatively young person. I mean, you're still what years old? 506 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: When you decide exactly I've got to get out into 507 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: this world that's waiting for me. I've got an idea 508 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: now where I came from and where I want to go. 509 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: You graduated from Wisconsin Universe consin Madison, in I think right, 510 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: And the month I graduated, I won a position in 511 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: Tom O'hoggian's Hair's So Great. That was my first professional performance. 512 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: Now that's the equation I want to share with anybody 513 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: who's curious about ambition, accomplishment, destiny, any of those huge ideas. 514 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: First you must have the dream. Second you must have 515 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: the epiphany. The third part of the equation is once 516 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: on that Thursday when someone comes to you and puts 517 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: a check in your hand and pays you for the 518 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: dream that has now become the work. That's the equation. 519 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: From there, your destiny will rise up, shake your hand 520 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: and say welcome. I've been waiting for you all this time. 521 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: But the epiphany and the opportunity also requires work. Once 522 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: you are offered that position, you know in hair, you 523 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: have to put in the work, didn't you? That is correct, 524 00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: But the work starts long before the paycheck arrives. You know. 525 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: It strikes me that it was in the Whiz that 526 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: you had your incredible breakout national moment, and how appropriate 527 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: it is that a musical retelling of the Wizard of 528 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: Oz through Black culture and music would be the groundbreaking 529 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: success it was, and also your opportunity to manifest that dream. 530 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: How did you end up in the Whiz? So I've 531 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: gotten my first professional gig in Chicago. We're in the 532 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: early seventies now and we are creating an off Loop 533 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: theatrical experience, which is tantamount to what we call off Broadway. 534 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: And a group of us from the University of Wisconsin 535 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: founded the Organic Theater Company and created a show called 536 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: Warp w A r P. It's the science fiction show. 537 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: Produced a saw it and thought, wow, this would go 538 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: well in New York. He brought us to New York 539 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: in nine We were sumarily dismissed by the New York critics, 540 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: and the consensus was, listen to you dirty foot hippies, 541 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: go back to Chicago now. When the company returned to Chicago, 542 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: I said, guys, I love you all. You've been my 543 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: family for four years. But now that I'm in New York, 544 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to take my chances here. And by the 545 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: grace of four women friends of mine who were in 546 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: New York working, and these four women would allow me 547 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: to couch surf, take care of my cat, and you 548 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: can sleep in my couch, wash my dishes and you 549 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: can sleep on my couch, and that sort of thing. 550 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: As my mother would say. I didn't have a pot 551 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: to piston or a window to throw it out of. 552 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: But I was right. But I was in the camelot. 553 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: All I had to do was to discover my coat 554 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: of arms, if you will. Ken Hopper, the producer of 555 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: The Whiz, cast his net. We're looking for the actress 556 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: who would say these roles. I got an audition. I 557 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: was cut for the scarecrow. I was cut for the lion. 558 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: I was cut for the tin man. It didn't matter 559 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: to me because I wanted to be the Wizard, but 560 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: I had to beg for it. And Ken Harper said 561 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: to me, all right, I think he thought he was 562 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: getting rid of me. Will allow you to audition for 563 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: the Whiz. Now. When I got the call back, I 564 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: had pulled my hair out to it's Jimmy Hendricks length. 565 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: I was wearing my five inch silver studied platforms. I 566 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: was wearing my hot pants. I was wearing my halter 567 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: that had love embroidered all over it. I was wearing 568 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: my my Sight earrings. I was glorious. And I went 569 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,959 Speaker 1: in and I sang and I think this is part 570 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: of your growing up to midnight hour. Oh perfect right, 571 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm going away till the midnight hour. So I get 572 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: to the end of the song and Charlie Smalls, who 573 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: was the composer for The Whiz, stands up and shouts, 574 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: that's my Whiz. Hallelujah, hallelujah. That's what I'm talking about. 575 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: When you do the proper preparation, the destiny unfolds in 576 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: one golden step after the next, not immediately. It takes time. 577 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: But if you continue to apply yourself, if you continue 578 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: to cultivate patients. If you continue to know yourself and 579 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: be yourself and understand that authenticity is everything, you will 580 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: receive the blessing that has your name written on it. 581 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: I love that you know. You know so much of 582 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: what happens in live theater is ephemeral. But the Whiz 583 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: was one of those moments where it was just like 584 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: a great earthquake came down from on high and shook 585 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: the foundation of American musical theater. In fact, I think 586 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: your costume is now in the Smithsonian, is correct, National 587 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: Museum of African American History and Culture. Did you know 588 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: when you were in the Whiz it was literally a 589 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: moment of destiny for the culture. Yes, we we all 590 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: knew as a community that we were part of a 591 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: tectonic change in a paradigm because prior to the Whiz, 592 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: the only impact that black culture had on Broadway had 593 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: come many years earlier with Lorraine Handsbury's Raising in the Sun. 594 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: It was time that the traditionally inhospitable terrain of the 595 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: Great White Way underwent the conditioning for what we now 596 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: call diversity, equity, and inclusion. We didn't use those terms 597 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: in the early seventies, but we knew that we were 598 00:40:54,719 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: setting the stage for a change. And here's the miracle 599 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: of the Whiz. Stephany Mills play the role of Dorothy. 600 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: Once you see Dorothy as a young girl of color, 601 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: that is what universalizes the message of the Whiz, which 602 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: is there's no place like home. That's a great lesson 603 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 1: to learn. That's one of the greatest lessons to learn. 604 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: And once in someone's life, we go searching for our 605 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: purpose everywhere, and then at some point we learned, oh, 606 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: there's no place like home. As long as that was 607 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: the exclusive domain of a young, although brilliant, white girl, 608 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: it didn't resonate for the majority of young people. Once 609 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: Dorothy has melanine in her skin, then that message of 610 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: there's no place like home becomes universal, becomes a message 611 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: for everybody, everybody. We'll be right back. Well. You know. 612 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: The other thing that, of course I love is in Hadestown, 613 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: where you are again starring, which I also think of 614 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: as a groundbreaking musical. You're playing a Greek god, Hermes, 615 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: and you are omniscient. You are someone who is like 616 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: leading the whole audience and all of us through the story. 617 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: I loved your performance. Thank you, Thank you absolutely just 618 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: was knocked out. When I think about it, though, you 619 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: are now again because after the pande Emmick Hadestown reopened, 620 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: so you're back on the stage. You are, I think, 621 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: still doing eight shows a week. Look, that's not an 622 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: easy schedule at any age. And when you accepted your 623 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: Tony Award, I'll never forget this in you shared with 624 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: the audience your three Carnival rules for sustainability and longevity. 625 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: And although you put it in the context of the arts, 626 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: I would say, I think these are pretty good rules 627 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: for anybody. Could you share them with our listeners on 628 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: this podcast, I'd be happy to The context in which 629 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: I learned it was the arts. Anything you want to do, 630 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 1: anything that you want to master, will be enhanced if 631 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: the arts are part of your preparation. You don't have 632 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: to become an actor. You don't have to dance, you 633 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: don't have to sing. You just have to bebble the 634 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: hard edges by saying or understanding that you are an artist. 635 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: You are a good mother, you have cultivated the art 636 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: of parenthood. You're a good construction worker, You've mastered the 637 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: art of building things. You are a good street cleaner, 638 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: garbage collector, you've mastered the art of sanitation. Cultivate the 639 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: artistry of whatever it is you do, and then you 640 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: can apply these three cardinal rules. Cardinal rule number one, 641 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: surround yourself with people whose eyes light up when they 642 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: see you coming. Cardinal rule number two. Slowly is the 643 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: fastest way to get to where you want to be. 644 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: Cardonal rule number three. The top of one mountain is 645 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: the bottom of the next, so keep climbing. MMM. I 646 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: really appreciate the way that you took those cardinal rules 647 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: and expanded them to what we do in our everyday lives, 648 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: making it clear everybody can be an artist in his 649 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: or her own way. Do what you can do. It's 650 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: a pot luck supper. Bring your best dish. You literally 651 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: I could. I could talk to you all day, my friend. 652 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: I just wish you all of the blessings of this 653 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: extraordinary life that you're leading. May it continue with joy 654 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: and gratitude and you continue to find ways to share 655 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: it with you. It really means the world to me personally. 656 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: May I have the last word? Yes, you may. Hillary 657 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: Rodham Clinton, Madam President, thank you for allowing me to 658 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: have this conversation with you. I'm taking it to everyone 659 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: whose eyes light up when they see me. Come. You 660 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. 661 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, 662 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: with help from Homa Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, 663 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Lona Valmorrow and Benita Zuman. Our engineer is 664 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: Zack McNeice and the original music is by Forrest Gray. 665 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, tell someone else 666 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what 667 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and 668 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 669 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and, 670 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: as Andrea says, keep climbing. I'll see you next week.