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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's me Maya. You might have heard

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Speaker 1: me talk about The Moth before. It's the long standing,

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Speaker 1: critically acclaimed podcast where storytellers stand alone under a spotlight

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Speaker 1: and tell a true story to a room full of strangers.

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Speaker 1: Moth stories are funny, heartbreaking, and enlightening, and sometimes all

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Speaker 1: three at the same time, and they celebrate something we

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Speaker 1: care a lot about. Here at a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: real people talking about their own lives in their own words.

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Speaker 1: If you like the mix of curiosity, vulnerability, and human

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Speaker 1: transformation that we explore on our show, we think you'll

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Speaker 1: like the Moth too. The episode I'm sharing now, called Advice,

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Speaker 1: is all all about wise counsel, listening to your gut

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Speaker 1: and learning to practice what you preach. I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it. This is the Moth Radio Hour. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Chloe Sammon, as an older sister. I love giving advice.

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Speaker 1: My brothers might say I love telling them what to do,

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Speaker 1: but I object your honor. I say, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of value in having someone pull up a chair, look

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Speaker 1: you in your eyes, and give you their honest and

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Speaker 1: objective take on whatever ails you Now, acting on that

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Speaker 1: advice another thing entirely, and I think that's okay. If

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Speaker 1: we always did the sensible thing, I expect there would

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Speaker 1: be far fewer good stories in the world.

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Speaker 2: And who wants that. So in this episode stories of advice,

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Speaker 2: give it taken and not so taken, and a chance

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Speaker 2: to ponder your own wisdom, giving chops. When I sit

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Speaker 2: down with one of our storytellers who's also an advice columnist,

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Speaker 2: who brought in some juicy questions to share with us,

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Speaker 2: let's get going. First up is Stacy Nicholson. She told

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Speaker 2: this story at a main stage in Fargo, North Dakota,

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Speaker 2: where we partnered with Prairie Public Broadcasting. Here's Stacy live

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Speaker 2: at them off.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a single memory of ever having lunch

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Speaker 3: in the lunch room during my entire four years of

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Speaker 3: high school. I must have, but if I did, I

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Speaker 3: likely ate my lunch as quickly as possible and then

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Speaker 3: spent the rest of the lunch period roaming the hallways,

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Speaker 3: because I do have a lot of memories of roaming

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Speaker 3: the hallways. In my mind, the table's in the lunch

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Speaker 3: room were reserved for the cool kids, the big groups

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Speaker 3: of friends who sat around laughing and making plans for

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Speaker 3: the weekend ahead, and I was definitely not one of

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Speaker 3: the cool kids. I was a shy, weird, introvert, but

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Speaker 3: I wished I could be the kind of person who

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Speaker 3: could sit around a table, laughing and making plans with friends.

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Speaker 3: Then in my twenties, I developed an almost crippling social anxiety,

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Speaker 3: to the point where I might make myself physically ill

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Speaker 3: if I had to go anywhere, especially if somewhere where

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Speaker 3: I might not know anybody, because I had decided that

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Speaker 3: the world was divided into two groups of people, the

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Speaker 3: people who thought I was weird and the people who

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Speaker 3: knew I was weird. And since I wasn't going to

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Speaker 3: be welcome at any of the cool tables and I

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Speaker 3: didn't want to spend my time roaming the halls, it

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Speaker 3: was easier to just stay home. But eventually I realized

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Speaker 3: that if I was ever going to have the life

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Speaker 3: I wanted to have, I was going to have to

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Speaker 3: make myself leaper the house, which is how I found

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Speaker 3: myself being introduced to my now husband's Skip at Ralph's

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Speaker 3: Corner Bar. Skip played bridge, and despite its reputation for

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Speaker 3: being a difficult card game, I thought it might be

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Speaker 3: something fun that we could do together. So I signed

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Speaker 3: up for beginning bridge class three times because bridge is hard,

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Speaker 3: but I was determined to learn. The last bridge class

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Speaker 3: I took was held in one of the meeting rooms

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Speaker 3: of the Bowler. There were four or five tables with

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Speaker 3: four bridge players per table, and we would sit around

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Speaker 3: practicing with whoever had ended up at our table, raising

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Speaker 3: our hands frequently to ask the teacher questions about how

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Speaker 3: to bid, or score or play a hand. I was

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Speaker 3: twenty six and everyone else was at least sixty. It

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Speaker 3: was mostly women, mostly widowed or divorced, and mostly retired,

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Speaker 3: and I liked these women, but I was intimidated by them,

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Speaker 3: so I would usually sit quietly and listen while they

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Speaker 3: told stories between the hands. And these women told great stories,

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Speaker 3: like when one was explaining how her husband had left

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Speaker 3: him after his high school reunion for his high school sweetheart,

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Speaker 3: and another one piped up, you're kidding The exact same

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Speaker 3: thing happened to me, And I was finally feeling like

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Speaker 3: I was getting the hangar bridge, and I probably could

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Speaker 3: play socially, but the people in the class and Skip

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Speaker 3: were the only people I knew who played bridge, and

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Speaker 3: he worked nights and I worked days, so I was

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Speaker 3: sad when the class was ending and I wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to have anyone to play with anymore. But I completely

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Speaker 3: shocked myself when at the end of that last class

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Speaker 3: I looked around and blurted out, does anyone want to

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Speaker 3: come to my house next week and just play bridge?

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Speaker 3: And before I could even think to myself, what have

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Speaker 3: I just done, seven of the ladies said they'd be

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Speaker 3: happy to come to my house the next week and

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Speaker 3: play bridge. And that's when the real terror set in.

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Speaker 3: I was going to have to go home and tell

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Speaker 3: my roommate, who was even younger than I was, that

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Speaker 3: I had invited seven senior citizens over for a bridge

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Speaker 3: party the following Monday night. Eight people means two tables

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Speaker 3: at bridge, and all I had was my dining room

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Speaker 3: table in four chairs. I had never thrown an adult

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Speaker 3: party before, and I was going to be entertaining women

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Speaker 3: who had been entertaining for longer than I had been live,

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Speaker 3: so I was worried I was going to make a

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Speaker 3: fool of myself. But I borrowed a beat up old

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Speaker 3: card table and four folding chairs for my parents. I

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Speaker 3: knew food was an important part of the success of

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Speaker 3: any party. So I loaded up on everything I could

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Speaker 3: think of, chips, nuts, candy, meat, cheese, crackers, veggies, fruit, coffee, soda, tea, dessert.

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Speaker 3: I got the required four decks of bridge cards, tallies

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Speaker 3: and scoresets, and I waited, and on Monday night, I

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Speaker 3: was a nervous wreck and nauseous, and I wanted to

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Speaker 3: call the whole thing off. But in my panic following

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Speaker 3: my surprise invitation, I didn't get any of their phone numbers.

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Speaker 3: So I was stuck waiting and worrying and hoping for

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Speaker 3: the best. And they all showed up all together, right

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Speaker 3: on time at seven o'clock. There wasge A selvishured take

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Speaker 3: charged Lady Sally, a barely five foot tall sweetheart, Greta, Sheila, Gail, Helen,

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Speaker 3: and Janet, whose husband had left her after his high

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Speaker 3: school reunion. I invited them in and we all had

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Speaker 3: to squeeze around the card table in the middle of

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Speaker 3: my little living room in my little apartment. I showed

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Speaker 3: them around, I invited them to help themselves to the refreshments.

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Speaker 3: We divided between the two tables and we started to

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Speaker 3: play bridge and get to know each other. We played

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Speaker 3: twenty four hands a bridge, six hands with one partner,

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Speaker 3: then rotate to another. We weren't very confident, and we

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Speaker 3: weren't very good. We went back and forth between the tables,

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Speaker 3: showing each other our hands and saying, what should I

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Speaker 3: do with this hand? How should I bid this? And

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Speaker 3: we gave each other a lot of questionable advice, but

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Speaker 3: we laughed and we had fun, and they were eating

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Speaker 3: my snacks, so I couldn't believe I had pulled it off.

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Speaker 3: And at the end of the night, Sally stood up

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Speaker 3: and said, does anyone want to come to my house

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Speaker 3: next week and play bridge? And we did so. The

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Speaker 3: next week we played at Sally's same routine, twenty four

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Speaker 3: hands a bridge, lots of questions, lots of questionable advice,

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Speaker 3: and lots of laughs. And at the end of that

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Speaker 3: night somebody else asked if we wanted to come to

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Speaker 3: their house the next week. So we played the week

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Speaker 3: after that, and the week after that and the week

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Speaker 3: after that, with someone volunteering at the end of each

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Speaker 3: night to host the following week. Sometimes someone would have

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Speaker 3: to miss, so our group expanded to include regulars and subs.

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Speaker 3: I lived in constant fear that they would replace me

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Speaker 3: as a regular. So any anytime I had to miss

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Speaker 3: a week, I made sure to volunteer to host the

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Speaker 3: next week so they couldn't exclude me. And at the

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Speaker 3: end of every night, we had dessert. Sometimes we had

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Speaker 3: dessert at ten thirty or eleven o'clock at night, but

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Speaker 3: we always had dessert. And depending on where we were,

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Speaker 3: we might be having dessert at two tables of four

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Speaker 3: or one big table of eight. But I finally had

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Speaker 3: a big group of friends sitting around a table, laughing

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Speaker 3: and making plans. Maybe we weren't making plans about boys

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Speaker 3: or parties, but we were at least making plans for

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Speaker 3: next Monday night. And at some point, I don't know

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Speaker 3: how or when, I looked around and realized I wasn't

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Speaker 3: at the cool table. I was the cool table. Anytime

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Speaker 3: anybody knew came into our group, I was introduced as

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Speaker 3: this is Stacy, the young wanner. This is Stacy, she

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Speaker 3: keeps us young. These women were I'm sitting with me

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Speaker 3: because they had to, or because there was no room

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Speaker 3: at another table. These women were sitting with me because

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Speaker 3: they wanted to. Somehow I had become the life of

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Speaker 3: the party, and I loved it we played Bridge on

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Speaker 3: Monday nights for twenty one years. Who my ticket to

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Speaker 3: the cool table has been a Bridge tally.

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Speaker 4: But even more.

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Speaker 3: Important than that, I've learned there's a third group of

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Speaker 3: people out there. Besides the people who think I'm weird

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Speaker 3: and the people who know I'm weird, there are the

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Speaker 3: people who know I'm weird and love my weird And

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Speaker 3: that has been the true gift of Bridge. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: That was Stacy Nicholson. She spent seventeen years as a

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Speaker 2: legal assistant, turning other people's lives into affidavits for the court.

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Speaker 2: Stacy ventured into live storytelling, hoping to build the courage

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Speaker 2: and skill to share stories at funerals and overcome her

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Speaker 2: fear of public speaking. Most of the practical advice she

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Speaker 2: got from her newfound friends was Bridge related, how to

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Speaker 2: play bid, bridge etiquette and so on helpful. Even more

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Speaker 2: helpful was the unspoken advice in her Bridge ladies. Stacey

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Speaker 2: found a blueprint for how to get older without getting old,

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Speaker 2: Keep learning, have fun, and laugh a lot. In a moment,

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Speaker 2: a stranded teenager gets some words of wisdom from his mom.

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Speaker 2: When the Moth Radio Hour continues.

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Speaker 4: The Moth Radio hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media

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Speaker 4: in Woodshole, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: This is the Moth Radio Hour. I'm Chloe Salmon. In

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Speaker 2: this episode stories of advice, both given and taken. Our

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Speaker 2: next storyteller gets some guidance from that bottomless well of

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Speaker 2: wisdom moms. Honestly, if I had started listening to my

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Speaker 2: mom's advice fifteen years ago, I might be president now.

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Speaker 2: Mike Falan told this at a story slam in Burlington, Vermont,

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Speaker 2: where we partner with Vermont Public. Where's Mike.

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Speaker 5: So this was a junior year of high school. I

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Speaker 5: had just been dumped for the first time, and I decided.

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Speaker 5: I was like, oh, you know, I'll give myself a

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Speaker 5: little vacation. So I went down to Florida to visit

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Speaker 5: my grandparents and it was like February.

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Speaker 4: Weather's great.

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Speaker 5: I had a good time, and I'm coming back and

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Speaker 5: I fly from like Florida to like Atlanta to La

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Speaker 5: Guardia and then Burlington. I get to La Guardia at like,

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Speaker 5: I think, like seven thirty or something, and I mean,

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Speaker 5: I didn't know it at the time, but we were

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Speaker 5: in the middle of the of the winter's biggest snowstorm

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Speaker 5: that year. And so I'm I'm in the airport and

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Speaker 5: it's snowing and flight from LaGuardia to Burlington and delayed

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Speaker 5: like two hours or something. It's like nine thirty now

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Speaker 5: and it gets delayed again. I'm like, okay, it's getting

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Speaker 5: a little late. Call my mom and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 5: like the flight's been delayed a little bit. It's snowing

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Speaker 5: pretty hard. And she panics, and so she's like trying

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Speaker 5: to find all these ways to get me home. And

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Speaker 5: she's like, you know what, like just go get a

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Speaker 5: hotel somewhere in New York. I'm like, She's like, go

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Speaker 5: talk to the front desk, like they'll get you something.

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Speaker 5: I go. I go up to the front desk and

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm like, hey, you know, I can't get home.

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Speaker 5: I'm sixteen.

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Speaker 6: And they were like, I can't do anything. It's it's

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Speaker 6: weather related.

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Speaker 5: We can't get you a hotel. We wait some more

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Speaker 5: and it's like eleven thirty eleven forty five and they

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Speaker 5: just cancel the flight completely. And so I'm like, Mom, like.

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Speaker 6: I I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 5: I can just sleep on the on the floor, not

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Speaker 5: even sleep, just like hang out here. And she's like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: maybe like Wednesday night, next light go up again. I

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Speaker 5: think it was a Monday, and they say our next

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Speaker 5: light to Burlington's on Wednesday. And so I was like, okay,

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Speaker 5: I can't do this, mom, I'll just get an hotel room.

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Speaker 5: Like I'll figure it out. I had like three hundred

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Speaker 5: dollars maybe to my bank in my bank account, like

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Speaker 5: any other sixteen year old.

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Speaker 6: But I'm on the phone with my mom and she says.

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Speaker 5: She and she's like she's run out of option. She's like,

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Speaker 5: just go find a mom. And I was like, I

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Speaker 5: was like, what what do you mean. She's like, just

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Speaker 5: look around, find a.

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Speaker 6: Mom, like in your in your gate.

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Speaker 4: And I was like okay.

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Speaker 5: So so I walk around and I'm like like stort

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Speaker 5: of looking at all these people and I see this,

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Speaker 5: like I see this kind of young couple maybe like

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Speaker 5: thirty some forty with her two young boys, and and

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Speaker 5: so I was like, mom, like, I think I found

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Speaker 5: another mom. And so so I go up and yeah,

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Speaker 5: this lady's like on the floor with her two little

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Speaker 5: kids and uh.

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Speaker 4: And then I go up.

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Speaker 5: I'm like hey, like my mom told me to find you,

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Speaker 5: and she's like okay, and I hear my I have

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Speaker 5: my mom on the punch and I'm like here, and

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Speaker 5: I give her the phone and uh and she talking

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Speaker 5: to this and she's like yep, yep. And I'm just

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Speaker 5: like sitting there like really awkward, like I see the dad.

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Speaker 5: I was like, how's it going, and and so she's

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Speaker 5: like yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and and gives.

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Speaker 6: The phone back.

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Speaker 5: And I talked to my mom and she's like, all right,

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Speaker 5: this lady's gonna give you a ride home. They're from Virgins.

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Speaker 6: I live in Underhill.

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Speaker 5: I was like, okay, this is like it's now like midnight.

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Speaker 5: And they rent a car and I get in the

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Speaker 5: car with this family, as my mom instructed me to do,

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Speaker 5: and and I drive five hours back. I tried, I

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Speaker 5: remember like distinctly, like I try to. She put her

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Speaker 5: two young kids in the back and I'm like climbing

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Speaker 5: in the back.

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Speaker 6: She's like, oh, you can go up front.

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Speaker 4: I was like, that makes sense, that's fair.

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Speaker 5: And so I sit up front and I'm talking to

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Speaker 5: this guy who's like older obviously, and to put things

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Speaker 5: into perspective, he seemed like the kind of guy who

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Speaker 5: was into country music, where I was listening to a

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Speaker 5: lot of Nirvana at the time, and so we weren't

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Speaker 5: really relating much. We're just like, oh, like crazy storm.

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Speaker 6: Huh and uh.

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Speaker 5: So it's a really awkward, awkward drive five hours.

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Speaker 4: It's it's a long time.

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Speaker 5: We get home or we get to Virgin's at like

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Speaker 5: five am. My mom meets us at this gas station

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Speaker 5: and uh oh, thank you so much.

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Speaker 6: Blu blah driving me back. I get home at.

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Speaker 5: Like six am or something, fall asleep. But all I

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Speaker 5: can say is that Lady Luck must be a mother.

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Speaker 2: Mike Falan is a twenty five year old special educator

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Speaker 2: from Vermont who spends his non working time rock climbing, traveling,

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Speaker 2: and exploring nature. Find a mom is honestly some all

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Speaker 2: time advice. The second best advice he's ever been given.

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Speaker 2: Never mop yourself into a corner. This from his boss

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Speaker 2: at his first pizza joint job, after Mike cleaned the

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Speaker 2: floor in the wrong direction at closing. Applicable in mopping

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Speaker 2: and in life. Our next storyteller finds her love advice

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Speaker 2: in the world of telenovelas For Better and for Worse.

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Speaker 2: Jersey Garcia told this story at a Grand Slam in Miami,

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Speaker 2: where we partner with public radio station WLRN. Here's Jersey

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Speaker 2: live at the mop.

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Speaker 5: Hello.

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Speaker 7: So I am Dominican. My parents raise me in New

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Speaker 7: York City. I'm from the Heights, Washington Heights. What that

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Speaker 7: means is also that I was taught from an early

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Speaker 7: age that you should never fall in love and if

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Speaker 7: you have the unfortunate event, or that unfortunate event happens

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Speaker 7: to you, you should never let anybody know about it,

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Speaker 7: especially the person you fell in love with. How I

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Speaker 7: learned this was because my mom told me and my cousins,

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Speaker 7: and also because I used to watch the telenae last

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Speaker 7: with her and there I was sitting next to her

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Speaker 7: and she's seeing Susana Juaquing and Susana it's Juaquin just

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Speaker 7: cheated on her. I don't know what he did, but

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Speaker 7: she was there crying and.

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Speaker 2: Pleading with him, don't leave me.

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Speaker 7: I love you so much. And my mom is sitting

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Speaker 7: there Kip and they had this girl is just like

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Speaker 7: I can't don't you ever? Don't you ever? And I'm

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Speaker 7: there seven years old with my little you know, bunitos happening,

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Speaker 7: and just trying to learn from my mom and from

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Speaker 7: telenovelas what not to do. And also you also learned

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Speaker 7: from the telenovelas that if something happened, you had to

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Speaker 7: make an exit. You had to cry out in this fashion, out,

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Speaker 7: oh my god, I almost die, Come and follow me.

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Speaker 7: Because the idea is that you had to play hard

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Speaker 7: to get and they had to come and get you.

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Speaker 7: So when I first fell in love, I was in

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Speaker 7: my sophomore year in high school and I fell in

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Speaker 7: love with Adrian Greeves. After dating him for a week,

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Speaker 7: number day seven, he called me and broke up with me.

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Speaker 7: So I went to my room and started crying, and

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Speaker 7: my mom stands at the door of the room and

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Speaker 7: she's like, Francco, come and see Come and see this tobacco.

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Speaker 7: She's crying for a boy, the disgust in her voice.

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Speaker 7: But I did not tell Adrian, although I was looking

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Speaker 7: for him in the hallways of the school, looking for him,

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Speaker 7: to just get a glimpse of him, because I spent

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Speaker 7: two years afterwards really like hurting, and because I was

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Speaker 7: in love with this kid. But I will never show

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Speaker 7: him that I was in love or that I even

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Speaker 7: missed him. The second time I fell in love, I

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Speaker 7: was in college and I went to visit this young

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Speaker 7: man who I was dating already for like a year

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Speaker 7: or something, and I don't know what happened. I found

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Speaker 7: a letter. It became a blur. I tried to remember

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Speaker 7: what that deelenovelas told me to do, and that was

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Speaker 7: to run out of the room in desperation, hoping that

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Speaker 7: he will follow me and come and get me.

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Speaker 2: No, don't leave, Jersey, don't leave, don't leave me.

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Speaker 6: I love you so much.

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Speaker 7: I went outside. He never came out to get me.

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Speaker 7: I was it was cold, it was very cold. I

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Speaker 7: came back to the room and he was sleeping. But

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Speaker 7: that's fine, that's fine. And I did what years opposed

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Speaker 7: to do, which is give back everything that he gave

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Speaker 7: you and leave the room and don't talk to him

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Speaker 7: anymore and never tell him that you were really in

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Speaker 7: love and yet your heart was broken. So the third

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Speaker 7: time that I fell in love was recently after as

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Speaker 7: an adult and dating after divorce, I met a man

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Speaker 7: who I fell in love with. And after like eleven

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Speaker 7: months of dating, he came up to me and he

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Speaker 7: said something about having cold feet and some song. Some song.

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Speaker 7: So I'm like, okay, here, let's see what is the

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Speaker 7: telenovela script that I'm going to do on this one.

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Speaker 7: I got a sadana's back, took all his items that

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Speaker 7: he had left in my house, put them in a

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Speaker 7: sadana's back, handed to him, gave him a coupon for

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Speaker 7: the special on socks they had in Walmart because God,

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Speaker 7: and I gave him also the Christmas card that he

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Speaker 7: gave me. And he will never see in me that

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Speaker 7: I was suffering and that I was in love with

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Speaker 7: him and that my heart was broken. The irony of

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Speaker 7: my behavior is that I am a licensed marriage and

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Speaker 7: family therapist. So what do I tell my clients that

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Speaker 7: come to me and are heartbroken or in this type

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Speaker 7: of situation. No, you need to go back out there

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Speaker 7: and tell that person how you feel you besket for me,

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Speaker 7: You're gonna go out. It's about vulnerability, it's about opening

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Speaker 7: your heart, is about sharing. Not this girl right here,

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Speaker 7: No way, I won't do that. And it's funny because

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Speaker 7: that summer that this gentleman had broken up with me,

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Speaker 7: I had like it was like the summer of heartbreaks,

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Speaker 7: and everybody that was coming in my office was experiencing heartbreak.

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Speaker 7: But the interesting thing too, is that this gentleman that

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Speaker 7: broke up with me a year and so ago. He

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Speaker 7: will always keep texting me just to say to check

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Speaker 7: in and say hello. And every time he checked in

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Speaker 7: my and said hello, Hi, Jersey, how you doing. I

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Speaker 7: my heart just broke a little bit more and I

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Speaker 7: just got so sad. I will just you know, respond

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Speaker 7: with me. I'm totally fine. Everything is fine, kids are fine,

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Speaker 7: life is fine. I yes, but recently, actually a couple

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Speaker 7: of weeks ago, he text and he asked that question, Hey, Jersey,

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Speaker 7: how you're doing? And I responded, I said, I haven't

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Speaker 7: forgotten you. I think about you every day since the

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Speaker 7: day we broke up. Every time you text me, my

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00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:08,156
Speaker 7: heart breaks just a little bit. And one thing that

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Speaker 7: I regret not telling you when we were together was.

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Speaker 1: That I love you.

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Speaker 2: That was Jersey Garcia. She's a divorce mother of two

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Speaker 2: who facilitates therapeutic healing for couples and individuals. She obsesses

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00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:32,756
Speaker 2: over astrology and the meaning of life while loving up

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Speaker 2: on John, who she considers to finally be the one.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Something I love about Jersey's story is her total honesty

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Speaker 2: and the difference between giving advice as a therapist and

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Speaker 2: actually taking said advice. Thank you for admitting that it's

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00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:55,316
Speaker 2: hard in that spirit, Jersey says she's found that what

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Speaker 2: sometimes works best with clients isn't regurgitating academic knowledge, but

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Speaker 2: sharing some of the ups and downs of her own experiences.

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Speaker 2: In a moment, a young one man reckons with his

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Speaker 2: love life on a hike in the Oklahoma wilderness, and

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Speaker 2: I sit down with that storyteller, who's also an advice columnist,

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Speaker 2: to hear some tricks at the trade and give some

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Speaker 2: advice of our own when the Moth Radio Hour continues.

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Speaker 4: The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media

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Speaker 4: and Woodshole, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: This is the Moth Radio Hour. I'm Chloe Sanmon, and

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Speaker 2: in this episode we're hearing stories on the theme of advice.

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Speaker 2: Our final story is told by John Paul Bramer, who

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Speaker 2: shared it at a main stage at the Hanover Theater

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Speaker 2: in Worcester, Massachusetts. Here's John Paul.

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Speaker 8: People tend to pair up pretty early in Cash, the

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Speaker 8: small town in Oklahoma where I'm from. My parents, for example,

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00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:15,356
Speaker 8: met as sophomores in high school, and I was around

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00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:20,796
Speaker 8: that age when I first met Corey. Blonde hair, blue eyes,

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Speaker 8: big muscles, Christian fundamentalist, completely out of my league. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 8: Corey took an interest in me, the shy, quiet kid

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Speaker 8: in Oklahoma, those are synonymus for homosexual, but I was

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Speaker 8: deeply in the closet being gay my neck of the

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Speaker 8: woods really wasn't an option. I remember one kid got

431
00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:50,076
Speaker 8: bullied for a solid week because he wore a Hollister

432
00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:53,196
Speaker 8: logo shirt to school. This other kid was like, he's

433
00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:58,716
Speaker 8: got a bird on his shirt like a girl. Still,

434
00:28:58,756 --> 00:29:01,556
Speaker 8: when Corey sat down next to me in first period

435
00:29:01,636 --> 00:29:05,836
Speaker 8: chemistry class, my heart fluttered. I'll never figured his first

436
00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:13,636
Speaker 8: words to me, Yo, So what's your relationship with Christ?

437
00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:13,876
Speaker 3: Like?

438
00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:20,036
Speaker 8: I knew that Corey was part of a weird Christian

439
00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 8: youth group, one of those hip non denominational churches that's

440
00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:32,676
Speaker 8: down with skateboarding and skinny genes, but not women's suffrage. I, meanwhile,

441
00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:37,116
Speaker 8: was very busy pursuing becoming a devout Catholic because it

442
00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:42,716
Speaker 8: was something to do. I was actually in the expedited

443
00:29:43,076 --> 00:29:49,716
Speaker 8: confirmation classes for the elderly and the dying for reasons

444
00:29:49,716 --> 00:29:54,156
Speaker 8: they never revealed to me. But all this is to

445
00:29:54,156 --> 00:29:56,876
Speaker 8: say that Corey and I we were at Starcross from

446
00:29:56,876 --> 00:29:59,876
Speaker 8: the jump, and I was way too into my Catholic

447
00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:03,596
Speaker 8: Sacraments to deal with his Protestant nonsense. But he was

448
00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:06,396
Speaker 8: so cute, and I was so desperate from male attention

449
00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:09,796
Speaker 8: of any kind that I was willing to engage theological

450
00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:14,196
Speaker 8: debates to get it. So I compromised. I wouldn't go

451
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 8: to his weird church, but I would meet Corey for lunch.

452
00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:23,116
Speaker 8: And then we met for lunch again and again and again.

453
00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:27,076
Speaker 8: We spent many a lunch hour in his parked car,

454
00:30:27,636 --> 00:30:31,196
Speaker 8: fighting over the existence of God and debating the concept

455
00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:33,956
Speaker 8: of sin, and exploring each other's bodies.

456
00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:38,516
Speaker 6: Third thing really threw.

457
00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:40,436
Speaker 8: Me for a loop, but I wasn't going to complain,

458
00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:48,556
Speaker 8: and other than that, it was practically Bible study. Within

459
00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:52,036
Speaker 8: the span of six months, I was confirmed John Paul,

460
00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:58,716
Speaker 8: Saint Juan Diego Hernandez Bramer, Corey left his weird youth group,

461
00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:00,956
Speaker 8: and I had fallen.

462
00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:01,836
Speaker 6: Deeply in love.

463
00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 8: I got to know Corey like the back of my hand,

464
00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:08,276
Speaker 8: and that he was deaf in his left ear from

465
00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,076
Speaker 8: a fist fight he had too as a kid, so

466
00:31:10,356 --> 00:31:13,156
Speaker 8: I always had to speak into his right. I knew

467
00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:15,036
Speaker 8: that his dad was an out of work flooring guy

468
00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:18,556
Speaker 8: who'd been hit hard by the recession, and that his mom,

469
00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:21,236
Speaker 8: a segretary at the smoke meats company in town, was

470
00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:24,076
Speaker 8: the breadwinner of the family. He got used to being

471
00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:26,076
Speaker 8: at my place, I got used to being at his.

472
00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:29,836
Speaker 8: We'd play call of duty, roam the aisles of Walmart,

473
00:31:30,516 --> 00:31:33,556
Speaker 8: commit light theft, go on hikes in the witch Tal

474
00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:36,916
Speaker 8: wildlife Refuge, and when we were certain we were alone

475
00:31:37,516 --> 00:31:40,636
Speaker 8: and that we wouldn't get caught, we would fool around.

476
00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:41,636
Speaker 6: And this was.

477
00:31:41,596 --> 00:31:44,396
Speaker 8: Actually a perfect system for me, a person with no

478
00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:46,516
Speaker 8: intention of ever coming out but who still.

479
00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:48,716
Speaker 6: Kind of wanted to do hand stuff why not.

480
00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:54,196
Speaker 8: But Corey, for his part, made it abundantly clear that

481
00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:57,556
Speaker 8: he wanted to be normal. We could fool around, but

482
00:31:57,596 --> 00:32:00,516
Speaker 8: only when he wanted to. We should do our best

483
00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:02,956
Speaker 8: not to be seen together too often in public, and

484
00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:07,236
Speaker 8: we should definitely never ever acknowledge that there was anything.

485
00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:08,076
Speaker 6: Gay going on between us.

486
00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:12,596
Speaker 8: These were good old fashioned heterosexual hand jobs between best bros.

487
00:32:22,356 --> 00:32:27,556
Speaker 8: Those are Corey's rules, and you know what, I abided

488
00:32:27,556 --> 00:32:32,796
Speaker 8: by them reluctantly at first, but then without even really

489
00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:36,316
Speaker 8: questioning them. Before I knew it, Corey was completely in

490
00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,356
Speaker 8: the driver's seat. Literally, even when we were in my car,

491
00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:40,636
Speaker 8: he didn't let me drive.

492
00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:42,956
Speaker 6: And I got used to it.

493
00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:45,996
Speaker 8: I truly believed, in my heart of hearts, this was

494
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,396
Speaker 8: as good as a closet country kid was ever going

495
00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:50,876
Speaker 8: to get and I shouldn't do anything to mess it up.

496
00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:52,356
Speaker 6: I mean, this is someone.

497
00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:54,596
Speaker 8: Who wanted to spend time with me, someone who talked

498
00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:57,996
Speaker 8: to me, someone who even touched me sometimes. That was

499
00:32:58,036 --> 00:33:00,916
Speaker 8: more than I was used to, and I guess that's.

500
00:33:00,556 --> 00:33:01,676
Speaker 6: All I thought I deserved.

501
00:33:02,356 --> 00:33:04,276
Speaker 8: I mean, where else was I going to find a

502
00:33:04,356 --> 00:33:07,836
Speaker 8: relationship like this without having to come out? And yeah,

503
00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:10,436
Speaker 8: I was pretty sure that my family wouldn't care if

504
00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:10,996
Speaker 8: I came.

505
00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:13,516
Speaker 6: Out as gay, but this was still rule Oklahoma.

506
00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:15,316
Speaker 8: And to be honest with you, I kind of thought

507
00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,956
Speaker 8: I had enough stuff going on as it was. I

508
00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:26,116
Speaker 8: was Mexican American. I was left handed two things.

509
00:33:28,996 --> 00:33:29,556
Speaker 6: I was and.

510
00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,796
Speaker 8: Continue to be incredibly embarrassed to be alive. And I'm

511
00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:34,636
Speaker 8: really just trying to make it to death without making

512
00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:37,956
Speaker 8: too much of a fuss. And that's definitely how I

513
00:33:38,036 --> 00:33:40,996
Speaker 8: approached my relationship to Corey. I never wanted to ask

514
00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:43,996
Speaker 8: for too much, so my grand plan for us both

515
00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:47,076
Speaker 8: was we would continue being best buds until one of

516
00:33:47,116 --> 00:33:50,316
Speaker 8: us died. We would move to the city, where we

517
00:33:50,356 --> 00:33:53,716
Speaker 8: would both get jobs and wives, of course, and we

518
00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:56,716
Speaker 8: could be neighbors, and I could survive off the scraps

519
00:33:56,716 --> 00:33:59,996
Speaker 8: of affection that he sometimes offered me behind closed doors.

520
00:34:00,476 --> 00:34:04,236
Speaker 8: And now that to me was dreaming big. A miserable

521
00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,196
Speaker 8: year like this went by. Then came the summer.

522
00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:08,236
Speaker 6: After we graduated high school.

523
00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:11,076
Speaker 8: I was going to owe You, about an hour and

524
00:34:11,156 --> 00:34:14,236
Speaker 8: a half away, and Corey was going to the community

525
00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:16,916
Speaker 8: college in town. I didn't know how to tell him

526
00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:19,276
Speaker 8: how terrified I was at the idea of being apart

527
00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:21,476
Speaker 8: from him. I mean, I didn't know what daily life

528
00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:24,916
Speaker 8: looked like without this guy. I'd memorized all four of

529
00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:26,996
Speaker 8: his orders at all four of the restaurants in town.

530
00:34:29,036 --> 00:34:32,276
Speaker 8: We knew each other's deepest secrets. We worry each other's

531
00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:35,436
Speaker 8: deepest secret, but we didn't have the language to talk

532
00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:38,956
Speaker 8: about that, so we didn't. We just kept doing what

533
00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:43,236
Speaker 8: we always did. We kept hanging out, we kept fooling around,

534
00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:46,956
Speaker 8: and we kept going on hikes. One of these hikes

535
00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:49,756
Speaker 8: was Elk Mountain, a two and a half miletrail that

536
00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:53,516
Speaker 8: we'd done probably dozens of times before, but that day

537
00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:56,036
Speaker 8: when we did it, we ran into something out of

538
00:34:56,036 --> 00:35:00,636
Speaker 8: the ordinary, something really cute. First came the big wet nose,

539
00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:04,876
Speaker 8: then two bulbous eyes, then the fuzzy reddish hair, A

540
00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:11,556
Speaker 8: precious baby bison, to be clear, was a death sentence.

541
00:35:13,156 --> 00:35:16,076
Speaker 8: Here's some Oki wisdom for you. Where there's a baby bison,

542
00:35:16,516 --> 00:35:22,676
Speaker 8: there's a mama bison. Bro was the last thing I

543
00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:27,596
Speaker 8: heard before that bison came charging at us through the brush.

544
00:35:27,796 --> 00:35:28,676
Speaker 6: And so Corey and I.

545
00:35:28,716 --> 00:35:31,436
Speaker 8: We throw ourselves off the untamed side of the mountain,

546
00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:34,716
Speaker 8: rocks and branches scratching and scraping us the whole way down,

547
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:37,836
Speaker 8: and before we know it, we're far from the trail

548
00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:41,156
Speaker 8: that we were just on. So we get up, we

549
00:35:41,236 --> 00:35:45,516
Speaker 8: dust ourselves off, try to laugh at the situation, and

550
00:35:45,516 --> 00:35:48,516
Speaker 8: then we go looking for the trail and we look,

551
00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:54,156
Speaker 8: and we look, and we look. The thing about being

552
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:56,236
Speaker 8: lost in the woods is that it takes a good

553
00:35:56,276 --> 00:35:59,076
Speaker 8: long while to accept. Your brain just kind of gloms

554
00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:01,916
Speaker 8: onto this delusional belief that life as you know it

555
00:36:01,956 --> 00:36:04,396
Speaker 8: is a couple steps that way, and you go a

556
00:36:04,436 --> 00:36:05,316
Speaker 8: couple steps that way.

557
00:36:05,636 --> 00:36:05,956
Speaker 6: It's not.

558
00:36:07,076 --> 00:36:10,196
Speaker 8: But as we're carrying on like this and getting progressively

559
00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:13,796
Speaker 8: more lost, it's dawning on me that people wouldn't even

560
00:36:13,836 --> 00:36:17,556
Speaker 8: think to look for us until nighttime. The sky darkens,

561
00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:23,556
Speaker 8: clouds gather starts to rain. But isn't until I hear

562
00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:26,436
Speaker 8: a rattle by my feet that I realize we're in

563
00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:29,636
Speaker 8: real trouble. And a lot of things went through my

564
00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:32,716
Speaker 8: head as I stared down at that rattlesnake. Some of

565
00:36:32,716 --> 00:36:34,996
Speaker 8: them made sense, like I wonder if my mom knows

566
00:36:34,996 --> 00:36:39,116
Speaker 8: I love her. Others were kind of silly, like wow,

567
00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:41,596
Speaker 8: my sister and I weren't done with burn notice yet.

568
00:36:44,236 --> 00:36:46,876
Speaker 8: I back away slowly, And when I'm certain that I

569
00:36:46,876 --> 00:36:49,756
Speaker 8: have somehow survived this close encounter with a rattlesnake, I

570
00:36:49,796 --> 00:36:52,516
Speaker 8: say what I should have said hours ago. I say, Corey,

571
00:36:53,156 --> 00:36:56,396
Speaker 8: we need to call the rangers. My phone's dead because

572
00:36:56,396 --> 00:37:01,476
Speaker 8: I'm myself. So he pulls his out, but then he hesitates,

573
00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:07,236
Speaker 8: can't do that, man, And I'm like why not? And

574
00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:11,436
Speaker 8: he goes bro, if we call the rangers, they're gonna

575
00:37:11,436 --> 00:37:14,796
Speaker 8: send a helicopter, and if they send a helicopter, it's

576
00:37:14,876 --> 00:37:18,596
Speaker 8: gonna be on the news. And I'm sitting there like okay,

577
00:37:18,716 --> 00:37:21,516
Speaker 8: And I just couldn't believe that this guy that I

578
00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:23,996
Speaker 8: knew so well, this guy that I was in love

579
00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:27,716
Speaker 8: with was acting like this right now, But it was

580
00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:30,716
Speaker 8: because I knew him so well that actually I kind

581
00:37:30,716 --> 00:37:33,716
Speaker 8: of knew exactly a what he was thinking. There were

582
00:37:33,796 --> 00:37:37,556
Speaker 8: rumors in town about me and Corey. People wondered why

583
00:37:37,556 --> 00:37:40,436
Speaker 8: we spent so much time together, and so, as crazy

584
00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:42,116
Speaker 8: as it might sound to you and me, here today,

585
00:37:42,316 --> 00:37:44,636
Speaker 8: I'm gonna walk you through life. According to Corey, in

586
00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:48,596
Speaker 8: that moment, we would call the rangers, the Rangers would

587
00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:51,916
Speaker 8: send a helicopter, and the Rangers sending a helicopter would

588
00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:55,596
Speaker 8: inevitably lead to a local news headline like two gays

589
00:37:55,596 --> 00:38:04,196
Speaker 8: rescued from Brokeback Mountain with our pictures right underneath. That's

590
00:38:04,236 --> 00:38:07,196
Speaker 8: exactly what he was thinking. But just because I could

591
00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:09,916
Speaker 8: read his mind does not mean I liked what I saw.

592
00:38:10,916 --> 00:38:13,236
Speaker 8: To be honest with you, my heart was broken. I

593
00:38:13,276 --> 00:38:15,556
Speaker 8: didn't know that his shame of us and of me

594
00:38:15,956 --> 00:38:19,396
Speaker 8: went that deep. But maybe he'd literally rather die than

595
00:38:19,556 --> 00:38:20,076
Speaker 8: be caught.

596
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:20,396
Speaker 6: Seen with me.

597
00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:23,676
Speaker 8: That's why I decided to do something out of character.

598
00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:26,836
Speaker 8: I snatched the phone right out of his hands, which

599
00:38:26,956 --> 00:38:31,436
Speaker 8: for us is unprecedented shocking, And we're staring each other

600
00:38:31,436 --> 00:38:34,636
Speaker 8: for a little bit in the silence that sometimes falls

601
00:38:34,676 --> 00:38:37,276
Speaker 8: between two people who know each other a little too well.

602
00:38:37,876 --> 00:38:39,356
Speaker 6: I think you knew exactly what I was saying.

603
00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:42,796
Speaker 8: So I have the phone, and with it I call

604
00:38:42,836 --> 00:38:47,516
Speaker 8: the rangers, and IT rings and IT rings.

605
00:38:48,716 --> 00:38:51,396
Speaker 6: And IT rings, and.

606
00:38:51,356 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 8: I do wonder if my little moment of triumph is

607
00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:55,516
Speaker 8: going to be squandered and I am going to die

608
00:38:55,556 --> 00:39:02,636
Speaker 8: on Situationship Mountain. But then the Heaven's part a voice

609
00:39:02,676 --> 00:39:04,356
Speaker 8: on the other side, a ranger.

610
00:39:05,396 --> 00:39:06,156
Speaker 6: Are you lost?

611
00:39:07,516 --> 00:39:09,956
Speaker 8: A voice so tender and so passionate. I just want

612
00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:11,556
Speaker 8: to break down right then and there and say more

613
00:39:11,596 --> 00:39:12,276
Speaker 8: than you know.

614
00:39:15,716 --> 00:39:17,716
Speaker 6: She really might as well have said.

615
00:39:17,796 --> 00:39:27,036
Speaker 8: Oh baby, you're gay. So she directs us towards a

616
00:39:27,116 --> 00:39:29,556
Speaker 8: valley which will lead to a clearing, which will then

617
00:39:29,596 --> 00:39:31,716
Speaker 8: take us to the parking lot. And as we're making

618
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:34,636
Speaker 8: our way down the valley, Corey is practically moping behind

619
00:39:34,636 --> 00:39:37,396
Speaker 8: me about being saved, I think because he realizes what

620
00:39:37,436 --> 00:39:40,116
Speaker 8: I realize, which is that we never would have found

621
00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:42,356
Speaker 8: this way out on our own. And maybe he's a

622
00:39:42,396 --> 00:39:44,436
Speaker 8: little embarrassed that I'm walking ahead of him.

623
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:48,156
Speaker 6: So we make it to the clearing. Through the trees,

624
00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:48,796
Speaker 6: I can see.

625
00:39:48,596 --> 00:39:51,036
Speaker 8: The parking lot and I've never in my whole life.

626
00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:52,756
Speaker 8: Been so happy to see a two thousand and nine

627
00:39:52,796 --> 00:39:58,196
Speaker 8: Honda Civic make it to the car. I climb into

628
00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:06,876
Speaker 8: the driver's seat. Thank you very much. And I am wet,

629
00:40:07,476 --> 00:40:12,396
Speaker 8: i am scratched, I'm I'm bleeding, but I'm also proud.

630
00:40:13,436 --> 00:40:16,636
Speaker 8: The world seemed new and bigger. Now I could had

631
00:40:16,676 --> 00:40:17,996
Speaker 8: a little more room for me than I thought.

632
00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:19,116
Speaker 6: Thank you.

633
00:40:27,516 --> 00:40:30,636
Speaker 2: That was John Paul Bramer, an author and illustrator from

634
00:40:30,636 --> 00:40:35,436
Speaker 2: Oklahoma who currently lives in New York and Surprise. In

635
00:40:35,476 --> 00:40:39,036
Speaker 2: addition to being a stellar storyteller, John Paul is also

636
00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:43,636
Speaker 2: an advice columnist. His column Ola Poppy has counseled hundreds

637
00:40:43,636 --> 00:40:47,236
Speaker 2: of loyal readers for eight years. In honor of this episode,

638
00:40:47,356 --> 00:40:49,476
Speaker 2: I asked if he'd come and chat with me about

639
00:40:49,476 --> 00:40:53,116
Speaker 2: what it's like to give advice professionally, and as a

640
00:40:53,116 --> 00:40:55,636
Speaker 2: special treat, we'll also hear a couple of the questions

641
00:40:55,716 --> 00:41:03,516
Speaker 2: his readers have said and give them some advice. Hey,

642
00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:05,676
Speaker 2: John Paul, it is so great to have you here today.

643
00:41:05,836 --> 00:41:07,516
Speaker 6: Hey Chloe, I'm so happy to be here.

644
00:41:07,636 --> 00:41:09,876
Speaker 2: I'm so happy you're here. All right. You're a very

645
00:41:09,876 --> 00:41:12,196
Speaker 2: funny person. It shows up in your story. But something

646
00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:15,236
Speaker 2: else that I really love about your story is its

647
00:41:15,316 --> 00:41:19,316
Speaker 2: vulnerability and its tenderness. So how do you find yourself

648
00:41:19,356 --> 00:41:22,196
Speaker 2: striking that balance when you give advice to your readers?

649
00:41:22,676 --> 00:41:25,756
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I'm very lucky in that Ola Poppy

650
00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:30,196
Speaker 8: started at Grinder, and so I, you know, didn't take

651
00:41:30,196 --> 00:41:33,076
Speaker 8: it as a very serious endeavor like I don't have

652
00:41:33,236 --> 00:41:37,556
Speaker 8: to be dear Abby here. In fact, the whole project

653
00:41:37,556 --> 00:41:40,076
Speaker 8: of Ola Poppy was me being like, what if I

654
00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:42,396
Speaker 8: kind of made fun of Dear Abby, or like did

655
00:41:42,396 --> 00:41:45,796
Speaker 8: a satire where like dear Abbey is a gay Latino

656
00:41:45,876 --> 00:41:46,756
Speaker 8: man on Grinder.

657
00:41:46,796 --> 00:41:48,196
Speaker 6: I thought that would be so funny.

658
00:41:48,676 --> 00:41:52,956
Speaker 8: But then, but then, so here's the thing about running

659
00:41:52,996 --> 00:41:55,916
Speaker 8: an advice column on Grinder, where it gets pushed to

660
00:41:55,996 --> 00:41:59,276
Speaker 8: the app. A lot of people on Grinder are in

661
00:41:59,316 --> 00:42:03,236
Speaker 8: the queer community. A lot of them are lonely, because

662
00:42:03,276 --> 00:42:05,796
Speaker 8: if you're on Grinder, you're looking for something right, And

663
00:42:05,836 --> 00:42:07,836
Speaker 8: they were like, I have a lot to get off

664
00:42:07,836 --> 00:42:10,236
Speaker 8: my chest, and so a lot of these letters were

665
00:42:10,316 --> 00:42:12,196
Speaker 8: very heartfelt, they were very poignant.

666
00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:14,076
Speaker 6: They made me very emotional.

667
00:42:14,436 --> 00:42:17,476
Speaker 8: So today, even still, the recipe for an Ola Poppy

668
00:42:17,516 --> 00:42:20,836
Speaker 8: column still has that intention towards humor. It's baked into

669
00:42:20,876 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 8: its DNA, but it's also little earnest, it's a little vulnerable.

670
00:42:23,556 --> 00:42:26,156
Speaker 8: It's me sitting down at the bar with you being like, hey,

671
00:42:26,196 --> 00:42:28,796
Speaker 8: I've been where you've been. But it does feel like

672
00:42:28,836 --> 00:42:31,876
Speaker 8: I have this Poppy persona. There's a room in my

673
00:42:31,996 --> 00:42:36,116
Speaker 8: brain that's dedicated to Poppy, and he's like this kind

674
00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:39,236
Speaker 8: of separate person. He has his own quirks, he has

675
00:42:39,276 --> 00:42:41,156
Speaker 8: his own way of doing things. And I really like

676
00:42:41,196 --> 00:42:44,156
Speaker 8: it that way because I have people ask me, you know,

677
00:42:45,716 --> 00:42:46,476
Speaker 8: do you feel like you.

678
00:42:46,516 --> 00:42:48,116
Speaker 6: Are wise enough to give advice?

679
00:42:48,236 --> 00:42:49,916
Speaker 8: Do you feel like you're the kind of person who

680
00:42:49,916 --> 00:42:52,556
Speaker 8: can actually help someone? And I'm like, not me, but

681
00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:54,596
Speaker 8: like this thing in my brain, or like this character

682
00:42:54,716 --> 00:42:57,556
Speaker 8: up here kind of can Yeah. And I really enjoy

683
00:42:57,636 --> 00:43:00,076
Speaker 8: that because it lets me be as messy as I

684
00:43:00,116 --> 00:43:01,716
Speaker 8: want and need to be. So I go out and

685
00:43:01,716 --> 00:43:04,676
Speaker 8: I collect the life experiences that Poppy needs to use

686
00:43:04,796 --> 00:43:06,236
Speaker 8: to make advice.

687
00:43:07,156 --> 00:43:09,356
Speaker 2: John Paul, you have very kindly brought in a couple

688
00:43:09,436 --> 00:43:12,756
Speaker 2: of questions that have been sent to you. I will

689
00:43:12,796 --> 00:43:17,036
Speaker 2: read the first one. Ola Poppy, my friend and I

690
00:43:17,116 --> 00:43:19,756
Speaker 2: have known each other for over fifteen years, and I've

691
00:43:19,756 --> 00:43:22,716
Speaker 2: always considered her one of my best friends. As well

692
00:43:22,756 --> 00:43:26,236
Speaker 2: as one of my few friendships that's endured several moves, schools,

693
00:43:26,276 --> 00:43:30,076
Speaker 2: and countries. My perception of our friendship was shaken last fall.

694
00:43:30,396 --> 00:43:32,556
Speaker 2: She had gotten married in a small, pandemic wedding and

695
00:43:32,596 --> 00:43:34,516
Speaker 2: had always said she'd put on a bigger wedding to

696
00:43:34,516 --> 00:43:37,436
Speaker 2: invite all her friends once it was feasible. I heard

697
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:39,956
Speaker 2: from a mutual friend that the wedding was officially being planned,

698
00:43:39,996 --> 00:43:41,996
Speaker 2: but no date had been set yet. I didn't think

699
00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:44,036
Speaker 2: anything of it until a couple months later, when her

700
00:43:44,076 --> 00:43:46,316
Speaker 2: sister messaged me and asked whether I was coming to

701
00:43:46,356 --> 00:43:49,036
Speaker 2: the wedding. It was then I learned that not only

702
00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:50,916
Speaker 2: had a date already been set, but it was hardly

703
00:43:50,916 --> 00:43:53,636
Speaker 2: a month away. The day of the wedding passed and

704
00:43:53,676 --> 00:43:56,796
Speaker 2: she posted all over social media about it. I liked

705
00:43:56,836 --> 00:43:59,956
Speaker 2: the post, hoping she'd see the notification and reach out

706
00:43:59,956 --> 00:44:03,076
Speaker 2: with an explanation. It's been half a year already and

707
00:44:03,116 --> 00:44:05,836
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to stop obsessing over it. Even

708
00:44:05,876 --> 00:44:08,356
Speaker 2: the funny post we would send one another have dried up.

709
00:44:09,476 --> 00:44:10,916
Speaker 2: How do I make peace with the fact that my

710
00:44:10,996 --> 00:44:14,516
Speaker 2: longest friendship is over and that, for whatever reason that

711
00:44:14,596 --> 00:44:17,116
Speaker 2: I may never know, she chose not to say anything

712
00:44:17,156 --> 00:44:24,756
Speaker 2: about it. Okay, layers, layers, layers, layers. My goodness, this

713
00:44:24,836 --> 00:44:25,236
Speaker 2: is tough.

714
00:44:25,396 --> 00:44:25,636
Speaker 3: I know.

715
00:44:25,956 --> 00:44:28,996
Speaker 8: Well, my favorite part of this letter is the part

716
00:44:29,036 --> 00:44:33,236
Speaker 8: where she is like, I started liking the posts, be

717
00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:35,116
Speaker 8: on social media and do something that just makes you

718
00:44:35,116 --> 00:44:36,276
Speaker 8: feel like an absolute creature.

719
00:44:36,476 --> 00:44:39,716
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I know. And that's so tough too, because

720
00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:43,196
Speaker 2: you're so emotional and friendship's ending. We don't talk enough

721
00:44:43,236 --> 00:44:46,796
Speaker 2: about how devastating that can be. Like there's space to

722
00:44:46,796 --> 00:44:49,836
Speaker 2: talk about a relationship ending, like a romantic relationship ending,

723
00:44:49,876 --> 00:44:50,916
Speaker 2: and how horrible that is.

724
00:44:51,316 --> 00:44:53,636
Speaker 8: Also, you know, in our culture, it's the norm to

725
00:44:53,996 --> 00:44:57,356
Speaker 8: bring a really formal end to romantic relationships. We have

726
00:44:57,436 --> 00:45:00,196
Speaker 8: a system where it's like, okay, we need to boat

727
00:45:00,236 --> 00:45:03,476
Speaker 8: sit down and really declare this thing over with. But

728
00:45:03,516 --> 00:45:06,476
Speaker 8: we don't have that for friendships, which can just sort

729
00:45:06,476 --> 00:45:10,076
Speaker 8: of drift away or can just wordlessly stop. And often

730
00:45:10,196 --> 00:45:13,436
Speaker 8: in advice column world, I have to do a lot

731
00:45:13,476 --> 00:45:15,476
Speaker 8: of work to dress up the same three pieces of

732
00:45:15,476 --> 00:45:18,236
Speaker 8: advice over over again, because most people are just one

733
00:45:18,276 --> 00:45:21,396
Speaker 8: frank conversation away from the conclusion.

734
00:45:20,956 --> 00:45:22,156
Speaker 2: To their issue.

735
00:45:22,276 --> 00:45:25,116
Speaker 8: But luckily for us, they are now like half a

736
00:45:25,196 --> 00:45:28,956
Speaker 8: year out from this wedding, Okay, And I mean my

737
00:45:29,116 --> 00:45:31,876
Speaker 8: question for this person would be like, what is stopping

738
00:45:31,916 --> 00:45:33,076
Speaker 8: you from just asking?

739
00:45:33,396 --> 00:45:33,476
Speaker 3: No?

740
00:45:33,676 --> 00:45:37,156
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And those are the conversations that always feel often

741
00:45:37,196 --> 00:45:39,396
Speaker 2: feel impossible to have, you know, because then you have

742
00:45:39,476 --> 00:45:39,956
Speaker 2: your answer.

743
00:45:40,396 --> 00:45:42,196
Speaker 6: Not wanting to know is so relatable.

744
00:45:42,236 --> 00:45:45,396
Speaker 8: Sometimes it's just the idea of knowing is so scary

745
00:45:45,436 --> 00:45:47,756
Speaker 8: and final, because my instinct says that, yeah, your friendship

746
00:45:47,796 --> 00:45:50,876
Speaker 8: probably has changed quite a bit over time if they

747
00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:53,396
Speaker 8: didn't even think to invite you, And that's not something

748
00:45:53,396 --> 00:45:55,836
Speaker 8: that's very pleasant to confront on a random afternoon.

749
00:45:55,876 --> 00:46:01,836
Speaker 2: Okay, So the advice is reach out, Yeah, ask Ola Poppy.

750
00:46:02,356 --> 00:46:05,156
Speaker 2: I hit my artistic peak in college, when I was

751
00:46:05,156 --> 00:46:08,876
Speaker 2: doing an art minor and consistently taking classes, learning new skills,

752
00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:11,356
Speaker 2: and being challenged to get better. I don't pay as

753
00:46:11,436 --> 00:46:15,236
Speaker 2: much anymore. I hastily sold my favorite college era painting,

754
00:46:15,356 --> 00:46:19,036
Speaker 2: a huge watercolor on paper depicting stormy waves, right after

755
00:46:19,076 --> 00:46:22,156
Speaker 2: graduation for way too cheap to an acquaintance when I

756
00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:25,916
Speaker 2: was broke. I've always deeply regretted it, especially because I

757
00:46:25,956 --> 00:46:28,556
Speaker 2: know I couldn't make another one like it now. A

758
00:46:28,556 --> 00:46:30,956
Speaker 2: few years ago, I messaged him explaining my regret and

759
00:46:30,996 --> 00:46:34,116
Speaker 2: asking if I could buy it back. He sheepishly admitted

760
00:46:34,236 --> 00:46:36,476
Speaker 2: he'd given it to a friend as a wedding gift,

761
00:46:36,916 --> 00:46:38,516
Speaker 2: and when I asked if I could have the friend's

762
00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:41,596
Speaker 2: name to reach out to him, he didn't respond. Fastward

763
00:46:41,636 --> 00:46:44,356
Speaker 2: to this month, the purchaser, who is also a musician,

764
00:46:44,756 --> 00:46:47,396
Speaker 2: DMed me asking permission to use my name in a

765
00:46:47,476 --> 00:46:50,996
Speaker 2: song about said friend. The line is, I gave you

766
00:46:51,516 --> 00:46:55,236
Speaker 2: my name's painting. Okay, the idea of a song about

767
00:46:55,236 --> 00:46:58,436
Speaker 2: friendship is nice and I don't mind from a privacy perspective,

768
00:46:58,436 --> 00:47:00,596
Speaker 2: so I said yes. But what I really wanted to

769
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:02,836
Speaker 2: say was I want my painting back. I still think

770
00:47:02,876 --> 00:47:06,276
Speaker 2: about it and get sad. I've considered doing some investigative

771
00:47:06,316 --> 00:47:08,036
Speaker 2: work and reaching out to the friend now that I

772
00:47:08,116 --> 00:47:11,436
Speaker 2: have his name. I don't know why I feel so

773
00:47:11,556 --> 00:47:14,916
Speaker 2: much grief over this painting, but I really do. Oh

774
00:47:14,956 --> 00:47:15,636
Speaker 2: this is a bummer.

775
00:47:15,796 --> 00:47:16,556
Speaker 6: Oh it's so sad.

776
00:47:17,956 --> 00:47:19,836
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's like to me, this is one of those

777
00:47:19,876 --> 00:47:24,396
Speaker 8: rare questions where I have different answers to address the

778
00:47:24,396 --> 00:47:27,076
Speaker 8: two different aspects of it. Where So in the beginning,

779
00:47:27,076 --> 00:47:29,516
Speaker 8: you know I also make visual art, I sell it,

780
00:47:29,556 --> 00:47:32,276
Speaker 8: et cetera, And to me, like once I have sold it.

781
00:47:32,276 --> 00:47:34,916
Speaker 8: It's unfortunate, but it's there, you know, Like I can't

782
00:47:34,956 --> 00:47:36,036
Speaker 8: just be like, hey, I want that back.

783
00:47:36,116 --> 00:47:36,716
Speaker 6: Yeah.

784
00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:40,316
Speaker 8: But then if my buddy didn't answer my query as

785
00:47:40,316 --> 00:47:41,676
Speaker 8: to who bought it, and then it's like, hey, I

786
00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:44,236
Speaker 8: made art about the situation, I would be like, oh,

787
00:47:44,356 --> 00:47:47,556
Speaker 8: so your art kind of matters, and so yeah, Like,

788
00:47:48,356 --> 00:47:51,316
Speaker 8: first aspect of the whole thing to me is like, yeah, sucks,

789
00:47:51,356 --> 00:47:54,556
Speaker 8: you sold it, it's theirs. Second aspect of it is

790
00:47:54,596 --> 00:47:58,076
Speaker 8: just like this person needs to get some sasas.

791
00:47:58,956 --> 00:48:01,796
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, I mean, see, this is why I

792
00:48:01,836 --> 00:48:04,116
Speaker 2: can't be an advice calmnist, because I would write back

793
00:48:04,156 --> 00:48:07,796
Speaker 2: and I would say, you know, I like, let's let's

794
00:48:07,956 --> 00:48:12,116
Speaker 2: collab on a strongly letter, let's show up at his

795
00:48:12,236 --> 00:48:14,316
Speaker 2: house and steal it, let's do a.

796
00:48:16,596 --> 00:48:16,956
Speaker 5: Heist.

797
00:48:19,276 --> 00:48:22,116
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I I guess. I guess the question they're

798
00:48:22,156 --> 00:48:24,036
Speaker 2: asking is if they should try and reach out to

799
00:48:24,076 --> 00:48:25,836
Speaker 2: the person who now has the painting.

800
00:48:26,076 --> 00:48:27,356
Speaker 6: I would I would still ask.

801
00:48:27,516 --> 00:48:30,076
Speaker 8: I would just be like, hey, here's the situation. Especially

802
00:48:30,076 --> 00:48:32,036
Speaker 8: once this person made a song about it. I would

803
00:48:32,036 --> 00:48:32,916
Speaker 8: be like, well, now I'm.

804
00:48:32,996 --> 00:48:35,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. And if they say no,

805
00:48:35,476 --> 00:48:37,676
Speaker 2: then that's it. We got to put it toad.

806
00:48:37,756 --> 00:48:38,356
Speaker 6: You gotta move on.

807
00:48:38,396 --> 00:48:40,476
Speaker 2: We got to put it to bad. Okay, all right,

808
00:48:40,596 --> 00:48:43,076
Speaker 2: I think that that wraps us here. Thank you so

809
00:48:43,156 --> 00:48:45,076
Speaker 2: much for coming in, John Paul. Is always a pleasure

810
00:48:45,116 --> 00:48:47,196
Speaker 2: to talk to you, and I have loved being able

811
00:48:47,196 --> 00:48:48,556
Speaker 2: to give advice alongside you.

812
00:48:49,036 --> 00:48:50,036
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

813
00:48:50,156 --> 00:48:52,916
Speaker 8: Anytime you want to join in on Ola Puppy, we

814
00:48:53,316 --> 00:48:54,236
Speaker 8: have Ola Chloe.

815
00:48:54,276 --> 00:48:59,756
Speaker 2: You're gonna regret saying that You're gonna have to all right,

816
00:48:59,916 --> 00:49:04,076
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming again. That was advice

817
00:49:04,116 --> 00:49:07,756
Speaker 2: columnist and storyteller John Paul Bramer. You can find him

818
00:49:07,796 --> 00:49:11,556
Speaker 2: on substack and also clearly in my heart, we gabbed

819
00:49:11,596 --> 00:49:13,636
Speaker 2: for much longer than I was able to include in

820
00:49:13,636 --> 00:49:16,236
Speaker 2: this episode. So if you'd like to hear the full interview,

821
00:49:16,356 --> 00:49:19,236
Speaker 2: including a bonus advice right in, head over to the

822
00:49:19,316 --> 00:49:29,676
Speaker 2: Moth dot org. That's it for this episode of the

823
00:49:29,676 --> 00:49:33,076
Speaker 2: Moth Radio Hour. If this week brings you some good advice,

824
00:49:33,476 --> 00:49:36,476
Speaker 2: I hope you're inspired to take it. Thank you to

825
00:49:36,556 --> 00:49:39,876
Speaker 2: our storytellers for sharing with us, and to you for listening.

826
00:49:40,436 --> 00:49:42,076
Speaker 2: We hope you'll join us next time.

827
00:49:56,956 --> 00:50:00,236
Speaker 4: This episode of the Moth Radio Hour was produced by

828
00:50:00,276 --> 00:50:03,676
Speaker 4: me Jay Allison and Chloe Salmon, who also hosted the

829
00:50:03,716 --> 00:50:07,636
Speaker 4: show and directed the stories. Additional Grand Slam coaching by

830
00:50:07,756 --> 00:50:12,556
Speaker 4: Larry Rosen. Whole producer is Vicky Merrick. Associate producer Emily Couch.

831
00:50:13,156 --> 00:50:16,516
Speaker 4: The rest of the Moth's leadership team includes Sarah Haberman,

832
00:50:16,596 --> 00:50:21,436
Speaker 4: Christina Norman, Sarah Austin, Jenness, Jennifer Hickson, Kate Teller's Marina Cluche,

833
00:50:21,596 --> 00:50:26,796
Speaker 4: Suzanne Rust, Sarah Jane Johnson, and Patricia Urenya. Moth stories

834
00:50:26,916 --> 00:50:30,596
Speaker 4: are true as remembered and affirmed by the storytellers. Our

835
00:50:30,636 --> 00:50:33,436
Speaker 4: theme music is by The Drift. Other music in this

836
00:50:33,556 --> 00:50:38,836
Speaker 4: hour from the meters Tom McDermott and Evan Christopher Goult McDermott,

837
00:50:39,156 --> 00:50:42,756
Speaker 4: Do Wally and Philippe bou Dot and Chicha Lee Bray.

838
00:50:43,116 --> 00:50:46,836
Speaker 4: The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media

839
00:50:47,036 --> 00:50:51,596
Speaker 4: in Woodshole, Massachusetts. Special thanks to our friends at Odyssey,

840
00:50:51,876 --> 00:50:57,076
Speaker 4: including executive producer Leah Rhyes Dennis. For more about our podcast,

841
00:50:57,356 --> 00:50:59,996
Speaker 4: For information on pitching as your own story, and to

842
00:51:00,076 --> 00:51:03,036
Speaker 4: learn all about the Moth, go to our website, The

843
00:51:03,236 --> 00:51:04,476
Speaker 4: Moth dot org.

844
00:51:13,596 --> 00:51:16,116
Speaker 1: That was advice from the Moth. You can find more

845
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:18,796
Speaker 1: episodes of the Moth at the link in our show notes.

846
00:51:18,956 --> 00:51:21,636
Speaker 1: And if there's a podcast you're really loving these days,

847
00:51:21,756 --> 00:51:24,116
Speaker 1: be sure to email us. You can reach us at

848
00:51:24,236 --> 00:51:27,276
Speaker 1: slight Change at pushkin dot fm. We'll be back in

849
00:51:27,316 --> 00:51:30,196
Speaker 1: a week with another episode of a slight Change of Plans.

850
00:51:30,556 --> 00:51:31,316
Speaker 1: I'll see you soon.