1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: audio for full exposure listen with headphones. In November of 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: last year, I spoke to David Halpern, who taught in 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: the Religious Studies department at the University of North Carolina 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: until he retired in two thousand. We talked about his 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: book The Intimate Alien, which pushes aside the believer skeptic 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: dichotomy to propose a new framework from which to view 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: the UFO question. The question is not what are they 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: or where did they come from? The question is what 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: do they mean? My name is David J. Halper Right. 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: I was a teenage UFO investigator back in the nineties sixties, 12 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: and I grew up to become a professor of religious studies. 13 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: For twenty four years, I taught judaic studies in the 14 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: Department of Religious Studies that the University of North Carolina 15 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: at Chapel Hill. My areas of special interest were religious 16 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: traditions of heavenly ascensions and other worldly journeys, which I 17 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: think I realized even while I was studying them were 18 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 1: my teenage uphology. In a more respectable guise that, as 19 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: I describe in my book Intimate Alien The Hidden Story 20 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: of the UFO. At the age of twelve going on thirteen, 21 00:01:54,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: I became utterly convinced that UFOs were real and that 22 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: it was my destiny to solve the mystery of what 23 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: they were and what they what they meant for us. 24 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: And gradually, as I went off to college, I let 25 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: go of the belief but the UFO. If I let 26 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: go of the UFOs, they never let go of me, 27 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 1: and I remained. Really I was quite aware of this, 28 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: captivated by what I would now call the UFO mythology 29 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: and it's intersections with certain more ancient traditional mythologies. And eventually, 30 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: in the course of my academic career, I published lots 31 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: of articles and five books on Jewish Messianism and mysticism, 32 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: and I also published a coming of age novel, Journal 33 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: of a UFO Investigator, and in Intimate Alien, I turn 34 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: around and look at what the UFOs meant to me, 35 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: how they've been a leading thread through my own mental life, 36 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: and it worked out moved out from there to what 37 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: they mean for our culture, for the people who believe 38 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: in them, and for the people who disbelieve in them 39 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: but often seem just as emotionally engaged with them as 40 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: the believers. What's the thesis of your book. You can 41 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. Yeah, let's put let's 42 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: put it in a nutshell. UFOs are a myth. But 43 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: when I say that, I don't mean what many of 44 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 1: your listeners may think. I mean. Nowadays we use myth 45 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: often to mean bunk or nonsense or something that's not true, 46 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: which is not how I use the word at all. 47 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: I use it in a much more Youngian sense as 48 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: a kind of collective dream of our culture and perhaps 49 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: even of our species that come that that comes bearing 50 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: meanings and a truth for us that needs to be recognized. 51 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: So when I say UFOs are a myth, I'm I'm 52 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: saying the very opposite of calling them bunk. I'm saying 53 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: they're vitally important. Attention must be paid. Can you talk 54 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about Young and what his sort of 55 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: take on the UFO phenomenon was. Yes, which is interesting 56 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: because he was never quite clear what his take was. 57 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: He The last book he published before his death, which 58 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: came out in German Inn and then in English in 59 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, was called in the English translation, Flying Saucers, 60 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: a modern myth of things seen in the skies, and 61 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: I would reiterate that when Young said this is a 62 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: modern myth, it doesn't mean oh, it's nothing, you just 63 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: forget about it. It is Wow, we got to pay attention. 64 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: We've got a myth growing among us, ladies and gentlemen. Now, 65 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: in that book he discussed the meanings that the UFOs 66 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: have for people, so there were chapters on UFOs in art, 67 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: UFOs in dreams. He was actually much more interested in 68 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: that than in nuts and both sightings, because he wanted 69 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: to know what the UFO as a projection of what's 70 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: going on inside us means to us. But he finally 71 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: he had to confront the question is it possible that, 72 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: in addition to being psychic projections, which he said, that's definite, 73 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: that they might be physical realities because it's not too 74 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: clear how psychic projections would appear on radar or how 75 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: there could be photographs taken of them. So in the 76 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: last chapter of his book he waffled back and forth, 77 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: and throughout the late fifties he continued to waffle. Charles Lindbergh, 78 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: the Aviator, told a story of going to visit Young 79 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: in Switzerland and expecting to have all sorts of fascinating 80 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: conversations about the psychological meanings of UFOs. And you just said, no, 81 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: they're really up there. And then Lindbergh said, you know what, 82 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I I talked to General Spats. He said, Slim, 83 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: don't you think that if there was something flying around 84 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: up there, we know about it by now. And Young said, 85 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: there are many things in heaven and Earth that you, 86 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: in general Spats don't know about. So so I mean, 87 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have Young's version of that encounter. 88 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: We just have Lindbergh's. But he came away completely non 89 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: plus that he was he was talking to her a 90 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: real uf HO believer, and yet at other times Young 91 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: seems to have denied it. So we don't really know 92 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: where he stood all that question, but where he stood 93 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: on what UFOs can mean to us that he didn't waffle. 94 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: The circular shape of the UFO, he said, was the 95 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: Mandola an archetype. And I suppose we have to talk 96 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: about what an archetype is that conveys wholeness, the unification 97 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: of opposites, That it appears in all different cultures, all 98 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: different religions, It appears spontaneously in people's dreams. And here's 99 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: something I would say that Young did not say that 100 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: it's not too easy to see why a flying disc 101 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: is an aerodynamically workable kind of craft. So if you 102 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: want to imagine the UFO is a real space vehicle 103 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: that gets a little bit hard, but as a mandola 104 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: that comes from inside us and that we project into 105 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: the sky, it makes perfect sense. Now I use the 106 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: word archetype, and I have to clarify that for Young, 107 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: we are hardwired to organize our thoughts as human beings 108 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: in certain universal patterns, which is what he called archetypes. 109 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: And these will crop up spontaneously in one culture after 110 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: another and go through the whole list I gave before 111 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: one religion after another. People will come to the analysts 112 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: having dreamed of their archetypes and so forth. So that 113 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: that was Young's approach, and I have to tell you 114 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: I first read it what I was twelve years old, 115 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: and of course I didn't have the slightest idea what 116 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: it was about. There were three books on flying saucers 117 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: in our library. One of them was Young's, another one 118 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: was Grave Markers. They knew too much about flying saucers, 119 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: which I hope you will ask me about. The third 120 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: was Frank Scully's Behind the Flying Saucers, which we may 121 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: want to touch on also. And I read all three 122 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: of them and I couldn't make head or tail out 123 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: of out of Young Generally, I don't suppose most twelve 124 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: year olds could, but it would have helped if I'd 125 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: had somebody to plain to me that when Young spoke 126 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: of a modern myth, he wasn't putting UFOs down. So 127 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: why don't you talk about Gray Barker Gray Barker. Okay, 128 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: let us talk not about Gray Barker at first, but 129 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: about Dave Alberin twelve years old. He's working on an 130 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: extra credit science paper which I don't think I ever wrote, 131 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,119 Speaker 1: and it was going to be on life on other Planets, 132 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: and I figured, well, why not talk a bit about 133 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: flying have a chapter on flying saucers. So I went 134 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: to the Public Library of Levittown, Pennsylvania, and I uh looked, 135 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: looked in what some of your listeners will remember, others 136 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: won't know what I'm talking about, a card catalog, and 137 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: found the three books that I've early ever mentioned, uh, 138 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: took them out, went home and started reading Gray Barker, 139 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: and pretty soon I wanted to hide under the bed. 140 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: I was so scared. Barker's book. We'll talk a bit 141 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: more about who Barker was, but his book was published 142 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six. It starts out with the Flatwoods Monster, 143 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: which some of your listeners may recall, is the entity 144 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: seven ft tall with a glowing green face that landed 145 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: on September twelfth, nineteen fifty two, on a hilltop in 146 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: West Virginia, was said to have looked worse than Frankenstein 147 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: as long as I lived, at one of the witnesses, 148 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: I wish I'd never seen it. I mean, I was 149 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: pretty spooked out by That goes on to talk about 150 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: the Shaver mystery, which we might might want to talk about, 151 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: but the the focus of the book is an incident 152 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: in Autumn three in which a Bridgeport, Connecticut UFO researcher 153 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: named Albert K. Bender is visited by three men in 154 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: black suits who terrorized him into stopping his UFO researchers. 155 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: That is the germ of the I don't know whether 156 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: to call it a myth or a legend. I was 157 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: sort of waiver there of the men in black which 158 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: forty years after Barker's book came out, made it to 159 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: Hollywood in the form of the movie Men in Black, 160 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: which we can talk about also. I read this book, 161 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: I was frightened. I was also energized because the book 162 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: challenged the reader to do what Bender did that somehow 163 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: or another, Bender was able two solve the riddle of 164 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: the Flying Saucers on the basis of the data available 165 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: to it. And you or I, says Barker, might do 166 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: that too. Let's work together. Send me your ideas, and 167 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: we'll see if we can discover what the Flying Saucers 168 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: are and who the Men in Black are. Now Here 169 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: I come to, I think a crucial point, because you 170 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: and your listen ners may wonder why, even at the 171 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: age of twelve, did I believe such fantastic stories. And 172 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: the answer is that I knew they were not fantastic. 173 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: I had personal experience with the Men in Black. I 174 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: knew them at firsthand. In my house, there was a 175 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: terrible secret, and that was that my mother was not 176 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: merely a semi invalid with a hard condition, as we 177 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: thought of her, or at least I thought of her. 178 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: I think my father knew better, but that she was 179 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: slowly dying. I didn't know this, but I didn't know. 180 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: I knew it, and it could not be talked about. 181 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: So I had personal acquaintance with a secret too terrible 182 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: to be revealed, and the inhibiting forces that kept it 183 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: from being revealed. Barker spoke in the language of myth. 184 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: He spoke the truth that I knew. It was only 185 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: many years later that I knew that Barker was also 186 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: speaking the truth that he knew. Barker was gay, and 187 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: the life of a gay man in nineteen fifties West 188 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: Virginia would have to have been a continued exercise in concealment, 189 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: in not letting out the secret that could destroy his 190 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: world if it was known. What I am saying is 191 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: that Barker, using the language of myth, using age old 192 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: images like the Man in Black and we can talk 193 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: more about that, conveyed the truth of what was happening 194 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: with him with an authenticity that spoke to what was 195 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: happening in me. The Bible says deep calleth unto deep, 196 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: And as I envision it looking back, Barker's deep unconscious 197 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: called to my deep unconscious, and I could not doubt. 198 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: I therefore believed in the men in black and because 199 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: their existence in terms of the myth would make no 200 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: sense unless the flying saucers were real. I believed in 201 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: flying saucers. He said, maybe we could talk more about 202 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: the men in black and in the movie. Yeah, okay, 203 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: I think let me let me first say who who? 204 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: Who I thought the men in black were, because I 205 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: believe Bender was actually was visited by three men. And 206 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: what's interesting is Bender didn't say or they wore black. 207 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: He said they wore black hats and dark suits. Barker 208 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: changed that ever so slightly, two black suits. And here 209 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: I will say that Barker the curator of the Barker 210 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: Collection in Clarksburg, West Virginia, which is a wonderful place 211 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: to visit. The data's name is David houch In. He 212 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: said at one point that Gray Barker has written one 213 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: of the Gospels. And I think he's absolutely right. And 214 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: because I mean, in my my my studies of the Gospels, 215 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: which I've done as a religious studies professor, I've seen 216 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: how the gospel writers took earlier traditions, reshaped them, slightly 217 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: changed emphasis, interpreted them through juxtaposition with one another, and 218 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: came out with something new. And Barker did precisely that. 219 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: I mean, as a twelve year old, if someone had 220 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: come to me and said, you know, how do you 221 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: know any of this crap is true? How do you 222 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: know Barker didn't make it up? Well, by the time 223 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: I was, I was in my twenties, I knew very 224 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: well that he hadn't made hard to any of it. 225 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: I mean, the Flatwoods Monster, you know that that that 226 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: incident really happened. I mean, I think probably what happened 227 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: was there was a barn owl flying out of the darkness, 228 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: said a group of jittery witnesses were just seen an 229 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: unusually bright meteor which they thought was a was a UFO. 230 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: But but Barker didn't make it up at all. He 231 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: he he gave the results of what even his critics 232 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: have admitted was an excellent investigation of it. And when 233 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: he said that Albert Bender was visited by three men, 234 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: or that he quoted Bender as describing that, I think 235 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: he was absolutely right, and I think we have to 236 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: make sense of it in terms of the historical context. 237 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: This was nineteen fifty three. UH Senator Joseph McCarthy was 238 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: at the height of his power and influence. UH J 239 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover's FBI was almost single mindedly devoted of ferreting 240 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: out the communists, those masters of deceit who wore a 241 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: thousand disguises, And they got ahold of a business card. 242 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm not making this up. This is from Barker's book, 243 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: A Business Card for vendors organization which was the I 244 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: F s B, the International Flying Saucer Bureau. And they 245 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: saw the word international, and the alarm bells started ringing 246 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: that this was a communist front organization and they needed 247 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: to shut it down, which they succeeded in doing. But 248 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: in the course of that created or gave a new 249 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: incarnation to an age old myth of sinister figures in black, 250 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: who I think, at bottom our embodiments of death. Barker 251 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: entertained a number of hypotheses about who the men in 252 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: black might be, and our Reiterator's book came out in 253 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties six, and he considered the possibility that the 254 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: men in black might be government agents, and if that 255 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: was the case, that put him in a somewhat ambiguous 256 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: situation which is hard to envision. Now we have to 257 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: go back to nineteen fifty six, in which, according to polls, 258 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: an overwhelming majority of the American public trusted the government 259 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: two always or usually do what was right. So if 260 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: the men in Black were the villains suppressing the truth 261 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: about the UFOs, and the men in Black were government agents, 262 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: you would expect the next step to be to villainize 263 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: the government. But Barker refused to do that. He said, 264 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: surely the government would know better than a sorcery researchers 265 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: what was the good of the country. And at one 266 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: point Bender reports that he was told by his visitors, 267 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: you're on your honor as an American not to say anything. 268 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: And Barker and everyone else who was concerned, of all 269 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: the other people from the I F. S B who 270 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to know what had happened with Bender, they 271 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: all took for granted that that is a binding commitment 272 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: that if you're on your oath as an American, you 273 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: better keep what you promised. So that was the situation 274 00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: in fifty six. Then came Vietnam, then came to gain 275 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: and now I think it's something like of the public 276 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: trust the government to do what's right, and so the 277 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: men in Black are woven into a nefarious government conspiracy 278 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: to suppress the truth. And then to the movie, which 279 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: I was quite honestly looking forward to it a little 280 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: disappointed when I saw the form that it came out in, 281 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: which how does that fit into all this? The movie 282 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: is very interesting because in a way it's an answer 283 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: to the most popular are one of the most popular 284 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: TV series at the time, which is The X Files. 285 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: In The X Files, Molder and Scully fight and sort 286 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: of an eternal battle, neither side can gain total victory 287 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: against the forces of secrecy and suppression. They don't wear 288 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: black because when you think about it, you know, so 289 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: if you know the motto of the X Files is 290 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: don't trust anybody, And if the sinister suppressors of the 291 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: Truth where uniforms identifying saying hey, we're sinister suppressors of 292 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: the truth, then you know you are. You automatically know 293 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: who you're dealing with. So there's no place for it there. 294 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: But the essential point is that there is there. There 295 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: are these shadowy agencies that fill the role of the 296 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: Men in Black, and they are the villains, the investigators 297 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: of the heroes. Now you go to the Men in 298 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: Black movies and it flips the evaluation around. I've got 299 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: the credit Professor Barnar Donovan, an expert on film and communications, 300 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: for making that point. The men in Black, they may 301 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: use unpleasant tactics, but they're doing it all for our good. 302 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: Where is it We may seem imposing, but believe me, 303 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: if we appear in your section, believe me, it's for 304 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: your protection. And they not only suppress us from knowing 305 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: the truth, but also they prevent us from remembering it. 306 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: What is it? Uh? Well, what was that? What? What's 307 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: their machine called the neuralizer or something like that. Vivid, 308 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: vivid memories become fantasies. And here there's the influence of 309 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: another stream of tradition, the alien abduction tradition, which depends 310 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: on the suppression of memory. So here we've got a 311 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: spinoff from Barker, but looking at it from the point 312 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: of view of what if the men in Black are 313 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: the heroes? I mean, after old Barker himself said the 314 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: government would know better what's for our good? And the 315 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: men in black no better? What's for our good? Can 316 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: you talk about alien abductions? Since you since you brought 317 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: it up. That was the focus of the first season 318 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: of Strange Arrival, starting with Betty and Barney Hill and 319 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: focusing on them, but eventually getting to you know, the whole. 320 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: Bud Hopkins, Dave Jacobs, John mac Weirdness starting with Betty 321 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: and Barney Hill is our watchword, right because that's where 322 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: the abduction tradition begins, or it begins in its modern form. 323 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: Because one of the things I stressed in my book 324 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: is that all these mythic themes have both a history 325 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: and a prehistory. The history of abduction starts in February 326 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: on Bay Street Road in the Bay State Road in Boston, 327 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: in the office of a psychiatrist named Benjamin Simon, where 328 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: an interracial couple Betty and Barney Hill, have come to 329 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: explore what seems to be something that they can't quite 330 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: remember about their encounter with a UFO in the White 331 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: Mountains of New Hampshire about two and a half years 332 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: earlier September. Simon puts them under hypnosis. He is an 333 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: expert in therapeutic hypnosis, and unlike many of his successor 334 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: hypnotist he could not care less about UFOs. He doesn't 335 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: believe in them, he's not interested in them. All he's 336 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: interested in is dealing with what are really some fairly 337 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: dangerous symptoms in Barney Hill, he has high blood pressure, 338 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: he as ulcers. He also has one that's not particularly 339 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: dangerous but is very weird, a ring of warts that 340 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: have appeared in a perfect circle around his groin. And 341 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: from the almost the first time Barney, who has put 342 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 1: under hypnosis, he remembers being to him and Betty being 343 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: taken aboard this alien ship, laid on tables and subjected 344 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: to all sorts of bizarre examinations and ordeals, which include, 345 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: for Barney, a cup being put over his groin. The 346 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: cup's traces turn out to be the warts. Now, what's 347 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: happened here? One thing? Most of your listeners will probably 348 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: know this, but we are. But Betty and Barney Hill 349 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: were an interracial couple. Betty was white, Barney was black. 350 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: And you know, granted, this is New Hampshire and not 351 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: Mississippi where six years earlier Emmett till Was was lynched 352 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: for supposedly making suggestive remarks to a white woman. They 353 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: are both plenty nervous, particularly Barney, about how they're being 354 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: together is going to be accepted in their travels. Now, 355 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: whatever is coming up in Barney terrifies him beyond measure 356 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: that saw Himan later said that I was afraid he 357 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: was going to throw himself out the window to escape 358 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: whatever he was experiencing. And for me, I am I 359 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: have to deal with what what to me are two 360 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: contradictory facts. One is that they never encountered the UFO. 361 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: The light that supposedly followed them through the mountains has 362 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: been identified, I think convincingly as a light in an 363 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: observation tower on top of one of the mountains, which 364 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: seemed to move as there against the sky as their 365 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: car moved. That's datum number one and datam number two. 366 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: Something authentic and powerful was emerging from within Barney that 367 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: had been triggered by that experience it and this, I 368 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: would have to say, I consider the most controversial part 369 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: of my book. I think that what was emerging was 370 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: a collective memory of being abducted in Africa into slavery, 371 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: being abducted in the middle of the night, taken to 372 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: an alien ship, and subjected two strange examinations. And I 373 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: think this is what shaped the abduction tradition in this country. 374 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: That the story of Betty and Barney Hill, which received 375 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: great circulation in nineteen six six with the publication of 376 00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: Two Look magazine articles on it that it planted seed 377 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: in the collective psyche of our nation, and then in 378 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: the late eighties the nineties it bore that seed, bore 379 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: fantastic bloom. And that's when we deal with amateur hypnotists 380 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: like Bud Hopkins, whose goal is not therapeutic but investigative. 381 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: So how do you take a look at that era 382 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: of abduction research, because you know, but but Hopkins, you know, 383 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: he clearly wasn't concerned with this collective memory of of 384 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: of um, of slavery or anything like that. I talk 385 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: a little bit in in season one of the podcasts 386 00:33:54,160 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: about you know, being a humanist and seeing through the 387 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: technology encroachment and as potentially a threat to a person 388 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: who's a modern artist and and lives a sort of 389 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: bohemian lifestyle. And that what he comes up with in 390 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: his interviews and his writings and stuff is this very 391 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: sort of cold, technocratic invader that doesn't have seemingly any 392 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: kind of culture to them. Right, It's just like this 393 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 1: very sterile lab doing these sort of inscrutable and sort 394 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: of violating experiments on them where you don't really you 395 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: know that you have no control over it. But I'm 396 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: interested in what in how you kind of take a 397 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: look at this well, I mean, the first thing that 398 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: comes to mind is that must have been how the 399 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: abductees in eighteenth century Africa felt being scrutinized there. And 400 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: by the way, Betty Betty Hill remembers that the space 401 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: ali the UFO beings are very puzzled that her teeth 402 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: don't come out whereas barneys do, which seems rather absurd 403 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: for space aliens. But it is no longer quite as 404 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: absurd when we remember that slave traders were advised listen, 405 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: you have to be sure to check people's their potential 406 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: purchases teeth, that is a that way you can know 407 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: for sure how old they are. Yes, so I think 408 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: that that is part of what was injected by the 409 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: Hills experience. But it seems to me that each of 410 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: the uphologious slash therapists, they's hypnotists, had their own theology 411 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: I would even call call it to defend, which they 412 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: did through I think implanting some ideas, not all of 413 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: them in the people they hypnotized. And I mean, I 414 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: don't know, are you referring to your interview with Carol 415 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: Carol Rainey, Yeah, that that was a lot. I mean, 416 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: I did other research, but I thought it was Did 417 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: you listen to that? Yeah, I listened to that. I 418 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: was quite fascinated because I'd never known that Hopkins was 419 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: an atheist, and here we find it's the same thing 420 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: that I wrote in my book about Richard Shaver, that 421 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: he was an atheist who created this incredible baroque mythology 422 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: of uncanny beings of near infinite powers, as if there's 423 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: a demon god who rules the universe. I would wonder 424 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: what there was in but Bud Hopkins which led him 425 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: in that direction. Now, his colleague John Mac went in 426 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: a very different direction. For Mac, when he could, he 427 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: would say, yes, they It's true the abductors used rather 428 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: rough methods, but their aim is to redeem us. And 429 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: in Mac's case, I think what we are dealing with 430 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: here is a resurgence of his hunger for spirituality after 431 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: having grown up in an aggressively anti religious household, and 432 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: he will see the Ufo beings as leading us two 433 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: a better future in which the mandola Ufo brings together. 434 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: I think of the linemen Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, that your 435 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: magic binds together. What custom has strictly divided, and that's 436 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: what the UFO will do, and that's what his uf 437 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: his UFO of doctors do, So I think that way, 438 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: I think we can see the individual idiosyncrasies of these 439 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: uh ufologists playing it out. And by the way, we've 440 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: not mentioned a key name here, which is Whitley, Strieber 441 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: and we Hana. And perhaps at some point we are 442 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: to talk about Streeber's Communion and what his best seller 443 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: Communion and what that contributed. But I need to say 444 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: here that the spread of the abduction tradition reflects broader 445 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: trends in our culture. That it's a form of uphology 446 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: that was ideal for the culture that came into being 447 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: really in the eighties, in which the therapist's office, which 448 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: had once been regarded as faintly ridiculous, just think of Peanuts, 449 00:38:54,440 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: Lucy with her psychiatric help five cents lemonades stand the 450 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: the therapist office was a place where you came to 451 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: know the truth, and the truth set you free. You 452 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: can detect, though, somewhat before the riseing wave and then 453 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: it's fall of the alien abduction beliefs, a similar rise 454 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: and fall of another related set of beliefs and that 455 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: is the belief in repressed memories of sexual abuse, which 456 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: are recoverable as UFO abductions are through hypnosis. Now, remember 457 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 1: Carol Rainey mentioned satanic abuse, which I think is also 458 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: part of this complex. But the idea what I called 459 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: in my book the unremembered, that there is something crucial 460 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: that is forgotten is not a strong enough word for it. 461 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: It is the unremembered, and then retrieving the unremembered is 462 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: the way you recover the essential truth about yourself. Memories 463 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse had their vogue, then they fell from 464 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: favor very rapidly, and I would say in some measure unjustly, 465 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: because I think there was a lot more truth in 466 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: the belief of repressed memories of abuse then most people 467 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 1: are willing to credit. Now m and there they're discrediting. 468 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: Helped bring the alien abduction tradition into discredit, which is 469 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: why by the end of the nineteen nineties we hear 470 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: very little about it. Well, let's let's go back just 471 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: a little bit. When you mentioned with Lee strieber Um, 472 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: who is not somebody I know very much about. What's 473 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: interesting about him, Well, he's an extraordinary man. To begin with, 474 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean is extremely creative. I have met him. He 475 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: impressed me as as as deeply sincere and also extremely intelligent. 476 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: Let's start with his book Communion, which was published at 477 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: in January of seven. It's you. You've seen the book, 478 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: or have you? And you know the cover? Yes, the book. 479 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: The book. I often when I read it, I cannot 480 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: remember much from it. After I've read it. The cover 481 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: is unforgettable. This is the face that we all know 482 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: by now, the face of the UFO alien, or, if 483 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: you want to be more strict about it, the gray 484 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: which totally pervades our culture. It's hard to realize that 485 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: before we had no conscious knowledge of that phase. It 486 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: erupted into our awareness with the publication of Streeper's book, 487 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: and with that, Streaber's book erupted into best sellered them. 488 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: It was on the New York Times best seller list 489 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,720 Speaker 1: for some fantastic period of time, I think at least 490 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: six months. The book focuses on an episode in the 491 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: December and which Streaber was abducted from his bedroom by 492 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: a group of strange beings like the one depicted on 493 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 1: the cover, whom he sees as went essentially feminine. There 494 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: is a very strong erotic overtone in Streber's experiences, which 495 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: comes to characterize the nineties abduction story. At first, Streaber 496 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: couldn't remember what had happened to him, Then spontaneously the 497 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: memories recurred to him. Then he underwent hypnosis by an 498 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: acknowledged psychiatric expert in therapeutic hypnosis, doctor Donald Klein, who 499 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: produced more detail. But I don't, in my opinion, not 500 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: a great deal of clarity. But what is really extraordinary 501 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: about the book was what I call the recognition response. 502 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: That people looked at that cover and they said, I 503 00:43:53,840 --> 00:44:02,320 Speaker 1: recognize this phase. I've seen it before, and I'd forgotten 504 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: I saw it, but now I remember. Streeber claims to 505 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: have received tens of thousands of letters describing such experiences. 506 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,720 Speaker 1: I do not question that assertion. The letters are now 507 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: archived at Rice University. I have not seen them myself. Way, 508 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 1: if whenever we get beyond COVID, I may decide to 509 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: take a trip out to Houston to take a to 510 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: take a look at them. Because what this suggests to 511 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: me is, and here we're coming back to our old 512 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: friend Dr Jung that that face that was painted by 513 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: an artist named Ted Jacobs at Strieber's direction was something 514 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: archetypal that, as I put it in my book, when 515 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: the human mind looks into the darkness, this is the 516 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: face that sees staring back. And I will tell you 517 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: one more thing, one more story of recognition. I gave 518 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: a lecture at U n C Greensborough, Uh, and I 519 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: think I think it was about UFOs and I showed 520 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,399 Speaker 1: a power point slide of that phase. About two years later, 521 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: a friend of mine, an old friend who teaches at 522 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: U n C gree g wrote to me saying, didn't 523 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: you show an alien face two years ago? Well, I 524 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: came across something very similar in Maria gam Buddhas's book 525 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: on the Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe, and wow, 526 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: he was absolutely right. This is a sculpture of a 527 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: of a masked individual dating back to something like four 528 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: thousand BC, which looks not identical with the cover of Communion, 529 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: but very similar to it. So here's where we get 530 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: into that supplementing of the history of a mythic theme 531 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: with its prehistory, in this case genuine prehistory going back 532 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: to Kossovo, where that sculpture was found in something like 533 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: six thousand years ago. Yeah, the picture in the book 534 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: is striking. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Um So I definitely 535 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: wanted to get to talk about Roswell because that's that's 536 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: how this this season begins. Um. And you that that's 537 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: how you that's sort of the closing section for the 538 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: most part of your book. Um, so maybe you can 539 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: talk about that and your your understanding of that. Okay, welcome. 540 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: First of all, I will state the negative. I do 541 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 1: not believe a spaceship crashed. I do not believe there 542 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: was any government cover up of the reality of the 543 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: crash spaceship. I do believe the Roswell myth is of 544 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: pivotal importance, precisely because once it began to circulate in Now, 545 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: the event of Roswell was for but until no one 546 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: ever mentioned the bodies of aliens being found in connection 547 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: with it. It was in that got started, and that 548 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: has become the most familiar of all the UFO stories. 549 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: I mean, practically everyone you ask in this culture has 550 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: at least has heard of Roswell. And by the way, 551 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: I thought you used an extremely good criterion for the 552 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: prevalence of something in the culture, which is if are 553 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: jokes about it comprehensible and jokes about Roswell are comprehensible. 554 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,800 Speaker 1: I can give examples if that would take too much time. 555 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: And essence of Roswell to me is death, and that, 556 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: to me is the most essential element of the Ufo myth. 557 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: There's no question the mandola that unifies opposites is important. 558 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: All sorts of unconscious themes, I would say, archetypal themes 559 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:28,399 Speaker 1: are fused in the image of the UFO. But at bottom, 560 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: I think the UFO is death, which is the most 561 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: alien thing we can conceive. We really can't conceive that, 562 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: the most alien thing we can fail to conceive, and 563 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: also the most intimate born with us, bone of our 564 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: bone and flesh of our flesh all the days of 565 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: our life. And this is of course why I call 566 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:07,839 Speaker 1: my book intimate Alien. Now I can give details, I 567 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: don't know whether you want them about about Roswell. I 568 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: thought particularly talking about the red haired officer and his 569 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, his black companion, I thought was super interesting. 570 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: This is something that it's really that that that we 571 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,360 Speaker 1: need to recognize about UFOs, that there's the mythology about 572 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: them is not limited to the sky. It's really most 573 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: interesting when it's on earth and there are all sorts 574 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: of features of the Roswell myth which makes sense thematically 575 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: in terms of the myth, and one of them is 576 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: that witnesses to the crashed object and it's dead occupants 577 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: are threatened and harassed by a team consisting of a 578 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,879 Speaker 1: red hair officer and a black sergeant, who I think 579 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: our mythological figures this i'd rather speculatively, I will admit 580 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: I saw the red haired officer is going back to 581 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptian demon god Seth. Not that there's a 582 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: living tradition of Sethian belief, but that's Seth and the 583 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: red haired officers spring from the same unconscious sources. And similarly, 584 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: a number of stories about Roswell have a team of 585 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: archaeologists at the sight of the crash, and so the 586 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,680 Speaker 1: witness they remember that they're the They were probably for 587 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: some eastern university, probably the University of Pennsylvania. You know 588 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: it sound which sounds very very very mundane, very verifiable, 589 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: except nobody's ever been able to find any archaeologists from 590 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania anywhere else who had anything to do 591 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 1: with a UFO crash. But when you ask what does 592 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: an archaeologist do, he or she gives voice to the 593 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: silent dead, and I think that's the symbolic function of 594 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: the archaeologists in the roswell Man read the story as 595 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 1: a myth, and you really want to put it on 596 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: the shelf beside the great mythologies of the world. Is 597 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,920 Speaker 1: there something that we haven't talked about that you think 598 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:47,319 Speaker 1: is is especially important for people to know. UFOs are 599 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: such a rich subject and such a powerful subject. But 600 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,239 Speaker 1: I think I don't think there's anything that I would 601 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 1: give vital that we haven't talked about. What would I 602 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: would What would I end up with? I'll end up 603 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: with two quotations. One is from Thomas E. Bullard M 604 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: Well uphologists referred to regularly as Eddie Bullard, who emailed 605 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: me once that if there are indeed extraterrestrial vehicles flying 606 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: around our skies, they are for the most part innocent 607 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: bystanders to our inner psychic conflicts. So that's one watchword 608 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: I would use for understanding the UFO. And the other 609 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: is the old Master Gray Barker, who died died prematurely 610 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: in Gray Barker told a an audience that if you 611 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 1: go out into the night and you look at the sky, 612 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: and you do not see a UFO, then look inside yourself. 613 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: You will surely see one that's interesting. That's interesting. Well, 614 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 1: I I really appreciate you taking the time. It's certainly 615 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,960 Speaker 1: a much different way of looking at it that I 616 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,880 Speaker 1: think people are used to, and I hope it encourages 617 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: them too to pick up your book and explore further. 618 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,840 Speaker 1: It's say it same to you, Toby, I'm very grateful 619 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: to you for the opportunity to talk. Strange Arrivals is 620 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,240 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart three D Audio and Grimm 621 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,279 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was written and 622 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: hosted by Toby Ball and produced by Miranda Hawkins and 623 00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: Josh Thame, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, and 624 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankie. Learn more about Strange Rivals over at Grimm 625 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,360 Speaker 1: and Mile dot com, and find more podcasts for my 626 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 1: heart Radio by visiting the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 627 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.