1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kuric is a production of I 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: that are happening by asking questions and by listening to 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: with me, everyone, let's all learn together. Whether you call 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: it Julian vaping or using East cigarettes. By the time 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: we even realized it was happening, it was already an epidemic. 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: But we're going to begin with America's vaping crisis. The 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: alarming update today from the CDC vaping related illnesses and 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: deaths continue to climb across the US. He sees updating 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: on the numbers of the lung illnesses associated with vaping. 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: They are now up to and twenty six deaths across 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: twenty one states. Now. That's up from about one eighty 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: last week and eighteen deaths. So this continues to grow 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: and it continues to impact middle and high school kids 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: across the country. I'm sixteen years old. I've been dueling 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: during class and jeweled pretty much every moment where I 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: wasn't in class For those who have missed the onslaught 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: of headlines. Jewels, babes, or e cigarettes are small, battery 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: powered handheld devices used to inhale aerosol produced by heating 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: a pod full of liquid that often contains nicotine flavorings 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: and other chemicals. Tobacco companies have been developing them since 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: the mid sixties, but they didn't hit the market until 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: two thousand seven and didn't really become widely used until 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: just a few years ago. Initially, they were marketed as 29 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: a way to help adults quit smoking, but their hip 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: advertising and candy like flavors like bubble Gum, mango and 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: grape entice a lot of kids. The FDA is holding 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: a hearing this morning to address the alarming spike in 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: teen vaping. Most East Sig brands contain nicotine salts, which 34 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: exit the blood string quickly, triggering cravings, and that means 35 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: they're highly addictive. Jewel, the most popular in the category, 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: accounted for just two percent of the market in two 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen. Three years later, the company captured nearly seventy 38 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: of the market, with its sexy, sleek and discreet design, 39 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: jewel quickly became the iPhone of e Siggs. I'm fourteen 40 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: years old and I'm used the jewel. I'm fifteen years 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: old and I am a jewel user. I'm fourteen and 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: I've been using a jewel for nine months. Because babes 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: were marketed as less dangerous than cigarettes, many young users 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: didn't even realize they contain nicotine until they were already hooked. 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: All of my friends, like all my best friends are 46 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: like addicted to It's just a part of my life 47 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: now that like, I know it's bad, but I can't stop. 48 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: The number of people smoking cigarettes has reached record lows, 49 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: but now we have a new generation of nicotine addicts. 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: So how did this happen? That's my next question, and 51 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: perhaps more importantly, what can we do about it? The 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: first thing I observed was that whenever I go to 53 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: the bathroom in the stalls, there would be these plastic squares, 54 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: and at the beginning I didn't really know what it was, 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: and then I realized that it was the cartridges from 56 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: the Jewel. Two years ago, Jack Waxman, then a junior 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: at spar Sale High School outside New York City watched 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: the vaping epidemic unfold firsthand. It was January, and what 59 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: I noticed was that kind of over the ensuing months, 60 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: the number of kids that were in the bathroom jeweling 61 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: and the amount of jewel pods left kind of continued 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: to increase, and it felt like jewel was kind of 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: spreading like wildfire amongst my friends and amongst the entire school, 64 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: And like so many at the time, he didn't know 65 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: what to make of this new trend. It was something 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: that I hadn't really experienced before. When I was a 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: freshman of sophomore, bathrooms and schools were places of education 68 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: and if any kids were going to be doing drugs, 69 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: it would be on the weekend. But I think what 70 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: the jewel did is it took kids and kind of 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: flipped their life backwards and forwards. It's really a twenty 72 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: four hour, seven day a week addiction in a way 73 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: that many other drugs aren't. And what they did is 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: it took bathrooms and classrooms and turned them into places 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: to basically just hit the jewel and fulfill your nicotine addiction. 76 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: You made a p s a called Jewelers against Jewel 77 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: that went viral and you haven't stopped. You're now a 78 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: sophomore at Cornell and the founder of Students Against Nicotine. 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: How did this problem get so big so fast? And 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: do agree that it's an epidemic? Yes, So we called 81 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: an epidemic in the video last May, and the Surgeon 82 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: General called it an epidemic last November. This is what 83 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: it is as an epidemic. UM rates went from ten 84 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: percent in one year of youth that vape. And that's 85 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: the large a single year increase of a drug and 86 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: recorded history. And that's not just where I'm from, It's 87 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: in every single school because nicotine doesn't discriminate UM and 88 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: every single school, every single state, they're experiencing it, just 89 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: like where I'm from. What motivated you to shoot this 90 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: p s A in the first place. After my junior year, 91 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: in my summertime, I was an intern for Chuck Schumer 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: in the city, and as an intern, I got to 93 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: write a policy paper, and a lot of my friends 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: chose to write about gun control, climate change, very noble issues, 95 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: but I just decided to write mine about the jewel 96 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: because it was something that I had seen a bit 97 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: during my spring year and what I found it was crazy. 98 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: I I found that in two thousand nine, Congress band 99 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: flavored cigarettes and put all these regulations on cigarettes as 100 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: part of the Tobacco Act, but all this stuff was exempted. 101 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: These cigarettes were exempted from this regulation. And I also 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: researched nicotine and found that nicotine, the same thing that 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: was in cigarettes in the twentieth centuries now in eat 104 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: cigarettes in the twenty first century. And I presented my 105 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: findings to Senator Schumer and he was so blown away 106 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: that he invited me up to do a press conference 107 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: with him. He encouraged me, and the whole staff encouraged 108 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: me to continue with it. So I had the idea 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: to make this video and basically recruited some of my 110 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: best friends who were struggling with this, and they opened 111 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: up and they were so courageous to tell their stories. 112 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: And what's happening now is parents understand the problem, and 113 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: the younger kids when they're watching his video and classrooms 114 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: and other places, they're hearing the stories of these older kids, 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: and they're basically saying, these older kids regret that they 116 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: started jeweling. This is not a cool thing. It's just 117 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: a flash drive. It's a loving finger, and this is 118 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: not something I want to be doing. Cigarettes are so 119 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: stigmatized right now in our country, kids would never pick 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: up a cigarette. But we're starting to do right now 121 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: is we're starting to stigmatize these cigarettes in the same 122 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: way that cigarettes are today. When Jack and I sat 123 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: down for this interview, it was at the end of August, 124 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: and the news linking vaping to a variety of health issues, 125 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: even deaths hadn't broken. Many parents and young vapors were 126 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: unaware of the dangers. I spoke to one person who 127 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: said that their friends were buying jewel for their kids 128 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: because they thought that the jewel is a safe alternative 129 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: to cigarettes, And now we know that's completely ludicrous. But 130 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: I think what we have to do is just continue 131 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: to educate parents about what's actually going on and that 132 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: these products not only have these crazy, you know, long 133 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: term consequences that researchers are looking at right now, but 134 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: they rewire the prefrontal cortex in ways that drugs like 135 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: cocaine and cigarettes do. It's not a harmless thing. When 136 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: I think parents are starting to seething at now, and 137 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: for a lot of kids, unfortunately it's too late, but 138 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: for millions of other kids, this is a perfect time to, 139 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, get these prevention mechanisms out of education and 140 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: then also trying to get kids to think about what 141 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: they could be doing instead. That was easier said than done. 142 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: They didn't continue vaping just to be cool. They were addicted. 143 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about some of the kids, your 144 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: friends who you featured in the video. Were they able 145 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: to get help? Are they still struggling? So four friends 146 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: in my video are still vaping um and it's not 147 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: like they didn't try to quit. I want to say, 148 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: like I'm surprised, but I'm not right because it's Nicotine 149 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: is one of the us addictive drugs in the world, 150 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: and that's the reason why they made the video, because 151 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: we know how insidious nicotine is, and anyone that smoked 152 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: in the past cigarettes or has friends that smoke cigarettes, 153 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Jack knew early what everyone else 154 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: would soon find out. Jewel was in the hot seat. 155 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: Within months of this interview, their CEO, Kevin Burns, would 156 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: be replaced by an executive from tobacco giant Altria. The 157 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: CEO of Jewel apologized in essence. Recently, I guess to 158 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: a family who had a child who was addicted, what 159 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: did you make of that apology. It's not gonna do anything, right, 160 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. You thought the words 161 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: were hollow. It doesn't do anything for the three million 162 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: kids that I've already got addicted to the practs. It 163 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: doesn't do anything for the parents, doesn't do anything for us. Besides, 164 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: you create noise that won't move the issue forward at all. 165 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: And it's just that's really all you can say about it. 166 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: It's not even a story. Three million kids are addicted. Mhm. 167 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: Where did you get that number? C D, C F 168 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: D A, all these you know, public health agencies, they 169 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: run these studies and those are the numbers that are 170 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: out there today. In addition to the flavors, manufacturers seemed 171 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: to be pretty effective at social media. How big an 172 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: impact has that had? In sixteen, that's when Jewels social 173 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: media was kind of insane. They were featuring like twenty 174 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: year old models with you know, cool photos, And there 175 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: was this crazy study done by the Stanford about how 176 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: Jewels marketing in those two years compared to Marlborough and 177 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: other big tobacco companies, and it was practically identical. So 178 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: Jewel basically spent millions of dollars putting these it's it 179 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: was the vaporized advertisement. It was all over Time Square 180 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: of these you know, hit models with all these crazy colors, 181 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: and they used social media to get kids interested in 182 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: the products. You can't be doing that. That's just not okay. Well, 183 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Jack, Thank you so much for 184 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: having me on. Jack wasn't the only one sounding the alarm. Next, 185 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: we'll talk with one of the first journalists to report 186 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: on the teenage babing epidemic, as well as the doctor 187 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: who blew the whistle on the hidden nicotine levels of 188 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: the cigarettes. This was just one of those stories that 189 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: it felt like everywhere I turned and everyone I talked to, 190 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: they were talking about this. They were worried about their kids, 191 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: or they were kids, you know, children are friends of 192 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: mine who were talking about this. Last year, New York 193 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: Times reporter Kate Cernaki wrote a bunch of articles that 194 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: covered the vaping crisis in high schools and middle schools 195 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: across the country, and what she uncovered shocked her as 196 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: much as her readers. It was really one of those 197 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: things that you found at every socio economic level. Geographically, 198 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: it was everywhere California, Rhode Island, Florida. I mean, it 199 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: was just any when you talked to agreed that this 200 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: was a problem. So it was happening almost in every state. 201 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: This is happening in Middle America, and not just on 202 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: the coast, not just urban centers. Absolutely, it was everywhere, 203 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: and it was girls and boys, which I think surprised 204 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: school administrators as well. What was shocking about it to 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: me was that it had come up on them so quickly. 206 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: It really was. These things had appeared in the fall, 207 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: and I guess it was and suddenly by spring it 208 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: was just everywhere, and the schools did not know what 209 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: to do. They were completely unprepared. I think that for 210 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: a lot of kids, you know, we've raised them to 211 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: understand that drinking and driving is bad, and cigarettes are 212 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: bad and they're ugly, but vaping, but jewel in particular, 213 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: came across as kind of a clean thing to do, 214 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: you know. It wasn't messy like cigarettes. Almost invariably the 215 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: schools I talked to would say, you know, a kid 216 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: comes into my office and says, you know, I've caught 217 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: someone jeweling, and I said, would you smoke a cigarette? 218 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: The kid would be horrified at the idea of smoking 219 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: a cigarette, but vaping somehow seemed cleaner to them. It 220 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: didn't seem addictive, it didn't seem like an ugly thing 221 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: to do or something that was going to make your 222 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: teeth look bad or make you smell bad. And a 223 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: lot of kids, when I spoke to them, they would 224 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: have arguments with me about oh no, there's no there's 225 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: no nicotine and jewel. So I think there was a 226 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: lot of misunderstanding about what exactly it was. You opened 227 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: your first story with a boy from Cape Elizabeth, Maine 228 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: confiding in his vice principle tell us a little bit 229 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: about that conversation. So this was a student who had 230 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: been caught vaping. I think not once, maybe not even twice, 231 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: but maybe a third time. I can't remember, but it 232 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: was several times. And so the principle was saying, you know, what, 233 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: what is it like? You want to, you know, you 234 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: want to understand a teenager why they're misbehaving. And the 235 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: kid kids said, I can't stop. That was his line, 236 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: I can't stop. And this was really what was alarming schools. 237 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: This must be so disruptive, Kate, when it comes to 238 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: teaching and learning with kids not being able to concentrate. 239 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, I know that they're calling bathrooms jeweling lounges 240 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: with toilets. I mean, how how much of a problem 241 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: is this creating in terms of actually doing the job 242 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: schools are supposed to be doing. It's been really huge. 243 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, in California, I talked to one high school 244 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: that had to close two bathrooms so that no more 245 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: than one student could go into the bathroom at a 246 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: time because they were going to share jewels. You know. 247 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: One thing that was interesting to me was that schools 248 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: felt like this had become such a disruption that they 249 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: were actually now treating it not as a disciplinary problem, 250 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: but is the medical problem right where they needed to intervene. 251 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: And so one of the schools in Colorado that I 252 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: spoke to said that there was a young woman who 253 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: came in and they gave her a treatment plan to 254 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: try to kick the jewel and part of her treatment 255 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: plan was standing in the back of the classroom shaking 256 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: her foot because it was she just needed to get 257 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: that anxious energy out. So I think schools are really 258 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: struggling to figure out is this a disciplinary problem. Is 259 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: it a disciplinary problem where they need to expel kids 260 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: or suspend kids, or is this primarily a health issue 261 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: and do they just need to get these kids some 262 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: kind of treatment. What needs to happen in your view, Well, 263 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: I do think you know, look, I think we need 264 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: to understand that this generation, as I said, has been told, 265 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: there are so many things they can't do. You know, 266 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: we've raised them in such a bubble. In many ways, 267 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: you've tried to preserve their perfect health, and so I 268 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: think we need to give them some education around vaping 269 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: and around nicotine in particular. I think we were very 270 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: good at saying that cigarettes cause cancer, and it was 271 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: the tar and the cigarettes, right, it was the smoke, 272 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: it was all those chemicals. They didn't understand that nicotine 273 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: was also bad for you, and in this case, it's 274 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: getting them hooked. We also don't know all the chemicals 275 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: that are in vaping devices, So I think really education 276 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: is a huge part. I think a lot of kids, 277 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: in particular, if they understood the chemicals that are in 278 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: these devices, they would look at this and think, I 279 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't you know, I want that in my sunscreen, much 280 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: less in my lungs. What kind of chemicals are in 281 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: these besides nicotine? Well, there's uh, some studies have found propylene, glycol, 282 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: glycerol um. There's one chemical called I think it's a 283 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: dia setal. I'm not sure how you say it, but 284 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: it's It creates popcorn lung, which has been really obviously 285 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: very dangerous and scary. But the thing that struck me 286 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: there was a there was an article in the journal 287 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: Pediatrics I believe it was in March of seen and 288 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: it found elevated levels of five carcinogenic compounds in the 289 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: urine of students who vaped. We've done so much research 290 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: on tobacco and on cigarettes, we know what's in them. 291 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: We don't know a lot about vaping devices. We haven't 292 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: studied them over the long terms. We don't know what 293 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: the long effects are because it's so new. And to 294 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: that end, parents are slightly clueless, aren't they. I mean, 295 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm clueless. I actually our team went out and 296 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: they bought me a vape. It looks a little like 297 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: a cross between a big lighter and a thumb drive, right, 298 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really small. It's then this is again 299 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: the double edged sword of the jewel, which is that 300 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: it's designed so that someone who wants to quit smoking 301 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: can take a hit of the jewel and have something 302 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: that gives them the same you know, buzz of a cigarette, right, 303 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: because it's a huge dose of nicotine. But that same 304 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: thing is going to give a kid who's never smoked 305 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: before that huge dose of nicotine. So there's the addiction 306 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: is going to come faster. They're eighteen cigarettes in that 307 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: eighteen cigarettes in a pod. Right. The other in citious 308 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: problem with vapy, kids were absolutely clueless about what they 309 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: were inhaling. We made a survey, an anonymous survey which 310 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: we gave to just over five kids in our clinical 311 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: practice over the course of a year, and the survey 312 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: was based on other national surveys with standard questions about 313 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: their use of tobacco, electronic cigarettes, and marijuana and so forth. 314 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: And then we also collected from some of those kids. 315 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: We collected urine for what's called biomarker of nicotine, so 316 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: it reflects the nicotine that they're getting in their body. 317 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Dr Rachel Boykin is an Associate Professor of Clinical Pediatrics 318 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: at Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University, and 319 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: she has been doing extensive research on kids and vaping. 320 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: We wanted to know if what they were saying was 321 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: matched in the urine. But we also wanted to get 322 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: a kind of a sense of how much nicotine they 323 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: were being exposed to because this kind of study hadn't 324 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: been done before. So did you find that some of 325 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: the kids on the first question weren't honest or didn't 326 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: realize that they were being exposed to nicotine? We found 327 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: that in general, kids who used electronic cigarettes were truthful 328 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: about what they said. They said they used them, and 329 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: we saw the nicotine byproduct than their urine. But did 330 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: they appreciate the fact that they were being exposed to 331 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: not all of them. So when we asked them, does 332 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: your electronic cigarette have nicotine in it? Some of them 333 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: said I don't know or know when. In fact, in 334 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: their urine we saw that marker of nicotine cotnein, which 335 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: said that they actually were exposed to it. So it 336 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: didn't mean they were necessarily being dishonest, they just didn't 337 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: understand correct. And what did you find in terms of 338 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: the level of nicotine that they were getting in their 339 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: bodies through the cigarettes? Number one, that they were getting 340 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: levels that are comparable, in some cases even higher than 341 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: kids who used cigarettes. We also found that kids who 342 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: used the e cigarettes more frequently, like every day, higher levels, 343 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: which kind of makes sense. We also found that the 344 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: kids who were using what we call the ponds like Jewel, 345 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: which is the latest generation and the most popular of 346 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: them and also has the most nicotine of all the cigarettes, 347 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: those kids also had the highest levels, So it kind 348 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: of makes sense. But it put some objective data, if 349 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: you will, into kind of what we thought was happening. 350 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: So you weren't necessarily surprised. Where you concerned when you 351 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: saw these levels in these young kids? Absolutely well. Nicotine 352 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: is bad for a number of reasons. Nicotine in and 353 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: of itself, we know has bad effects on a teenager's brain. 354 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: Teenagers brains are not actually developed until about agent It 355 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: can have effects on your ability to learn and so 356 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: on cognition. It can affect anxiety, caused depression. Just by itself, 357 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: nicotine is dangerous, but nicotine is also extremely addictive. It's 358 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: the thing that causes people to be addicted to tobacco cigarettes, 359 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: and so the concern, although these are not tobacco cigarettes, 360 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: is that these kids are getting addicted. Addiction is concerning 361 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: in and of itself, but we also know that kids 362 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: who use the cigarettes are more likely to go on 363 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: to use regular cigarettes. And here's where addiction and youth 364 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: are an especially worrisome combination. Because their brains are still developing, 365 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: it's easier for teens to get hooked, and using nicotine 366 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: at a young age can even rewire your brain, making 367 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: it easier to become addicted to other drugs. How does 368 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: nicotine addiction lead to other addictions? Is that something to 369 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: do with your brain and how it impacts the reward 370 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: system or dopamine. So nicotine does work on the dopamine pathways, 371 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: and dopamine is the reward pathway, and so that's probably 372 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: what it is. How it directly primes the brain for 373 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: other addictions. I don't know if it's really understood at 374 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: a very very molecular level, but we know that it happens, 375 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: and I find it interesting. People have asked me, why 376 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: is this that kids who use e cigarettes, now we 377 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: know this one really a lot of good studies, are 378 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: are four times more likely to go on to smoke. 379 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: And kids don't like smoking. We finally got rid of that. 380 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: You know, we were at an all time low for 381 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: kids actually smoking in this country until these cigarettes came along. 382 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: And now it looks like it's starting to move them 383 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: back towards that. And I'm not sure why, whether it 384 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: is the addiction, and why they would go from one 385 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: to the other, but we know that it's happening, and 386 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: I think that's a concern. The numbers among high school 387 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: students are really staggering, aren't they. It's crazy. Tell me 388 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: about the numbers. So from two thousand seventeen to two 389 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: thousand eighteen, there was a seventy eight percent increase in 390 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: the use of these cigarettes by high school students. We 391 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: have an uphill battle, I think, because one of the 392 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: problems is it took us decades to get a handle 393 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: on cigarettes, and I kind of look forward. I'm generally 394 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: a very optimistic person and I'm hopeful, but I also 395 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: see that the train is out of the station. And 396 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: one of the problems we have now is we have 397 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: a generation of kids who are addicted and we don't 398 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: know how to help them. As a pediatrician, we don't 399 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: have any evidence based methods to help them quit at 400 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: this point, and so we need to look at that too, 401 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: And so we're kind of chasing after this problem from 402 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: so many angles. I hope we can get a handle 403 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: on it, but I don't want to wait thirty years 404 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: to find out the long term effects. Thanks so much. 405 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: Up next, a desperate mom and a determined educator confront 406 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: the vaping epidemic. Right now, what we're seeing is really 407 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: the staff struggling on what to say and how to 408 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: say it, and when to do the education with their students. 409 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: Kathy Butler Wit is a tobacco treatment specialist who's been 410 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: working with the New Jersey Department of Health to try 411 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 1: to get a handle on the vaping crisis as it 412 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: continues to unfold. They themselves don't know what these products 413 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: are all about, how are they created, what levels of 414 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: nicotine are in them? What is a closed pod system? 415 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: What is an a juice? And so our team comes 416 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: into the schools and we start with administration. We talked 417 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: to them about policies, We talked to them about including 418 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: education in their curriculum, and then we give of them 419 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: the curriculum to use in their schools. So what kind 420 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: of kids are vaping? You know? When I was in 421 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: high school, even though I did get suspended for smoking 422 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: in the bathroom once and had to take a smoking 423 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: seminar and got kicked off the cheerleading squad. But that's 424 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: a whole another podcast, actually, Kathy, but what kinds of 425 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: kids are doing this? I think most people who smoked 426 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: regularly who went to my high school would be considered troublemakers. 427 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: What about vaping? Does the same profile apply? Absolutely not. 428 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: We are finding when we go into these schools that 429 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: we have students that are very educated, are health driven, 430 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: our sports players, and it's about just this social aspect 431 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: of the product, and jewel in particular, which is we 432 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: know the highest one that's being used right has the market, 433 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: and these students are seeing their peers use them, and 434 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: they look at social media and they see advertising that 435 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: makes it very sexy and appealing and all appear to 436 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: be very very safe. Nothing's going to happen. It's just water. 437 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: And as they use them, they are become addicted to 438 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: this nicotine. And so going back to thinking about who's 439 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: using it, you know, again, we have first of all, 440 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: very young kids as young as fifth grade. Now we're 441 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: seeing their story as youngest fifth grade is starting to 442 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: use these products. At the very least I've heard about 443 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: these products, seeing peers use them in bathrooms and on 444 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: the school buses and sometimes even in the classrooms. Well, 445 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: are they allowed all those places that they know? They 446 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: do sneak them. And it's easy to sneak because the 447 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: pod system the jewel doesn't create that very large vapor 448 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: appearance that we see from other other products. Is that 449 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: why so many parents are clueless about this? Absolutely? And 450 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: I think we have two avenues with parents. We have 451 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: parents who really absolutely no idea that their kids are 452 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: using them, But then we have parents who actually know 453 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: their kids are using them. Like Lorie, who stumbled upon 454 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: and then tried to rationalize her daughter's vaping habit. That 455 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: was in her room cleaning, and I found these colorful 456 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 1: little plastic things that I actually thought were the end 457 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: of a pencil holder, the lead pencils, And I thought 458 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: it was perplexing because I don't remember buying them. So 459 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: I took them downstairs and I showed them to her. 460 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, what is all this? She's like, um, from vaping, 461 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: and I'm like, vaping? What is vaping? I didn't even 462 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: know what it was. In a weird way, she had 463 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: to educate me on this horrible thing because I knew 464 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: what cigarettes were, and I guess I knew what a 465 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: cigarettes were, but I didn't know what vaping was. This 466 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: was two years ago, it was, And initially you were 467 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: actually relieved that she was vaping because you were a 468 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: smoker in high school and you thought, well, better that 469 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: then smoking. Right from what I knew, these cigarettes were 470 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: created to help smokers quit, so it wasn't as dangerous 471 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: to your health as cigarette smoking. So I remember being 472 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: sixteen and at a party and somebody handed me a cigarette. 473 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: So I thought it was in some ways natural, this 474 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: was going to happen. This is experimenting, This is a 475 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: little peer pressure, and I thought it would be safer. 476 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: So at first you thought, no big deal. You might 477 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: have been slightly bothered by it, but you didn't think 478 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: it was going to be a huge issue. No. I 479 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: thought it would be the part of learning how to 480 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: become an adult. And this is one of those things 481 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: that happened in high school that you experimented with and 482 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: you cast away. I was not initially concerned. Initially, Then 483 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: you realize that this could be a problem, so you 484 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: started putting restrictions on your daughter's vaping. Yes, so again 485 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: I saw these pods, and I at that point, at sixteen, 486 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: I cleaned her room. So I kept seeing more and yes, 487 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: well that stopped. I started seeing more and more of them, 488 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, this is not she owns them, 489 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: This is not her being at a party. This something's 490 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: weird here, something's wrong. So we put rules around it. 491 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: She said, I do this at parties. I don't go 492 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: to a lot of parties. It's no big deal. It's 493 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: not as bad for your health as smoking was. We 494 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: all know smoking is terrible for you. This is not 495 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: so bad. And again I bought into that. But when 496 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: I saw a few more pods that she owned, my 497 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: husband and I decided to restrict it, which was I 498 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: took what is now I know is a jewel. I 499 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: took the instrument away from her, and we said she 500 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: could have it on the weekends, so that I felt 501 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: like I was monitoring her usage. How did that work out? 502 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: So we had the rule that come Friday after school, 503 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: when all her home work was done and all her 504 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: school activities were done, she was allowed to have it 505 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: from Friday to Sunday morning, thinking that again, how much 506 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: could she actually intake in a day and a half, 507 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: less than forty eight hours, And it turns out they 508 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: can intake a lot in that very short time frame, 509 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: So she was puffing away on the weekends. Correct, And 510 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: did she then say I need to vape more than 511 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: forty eight hours a week. We never had that conversation, 512 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: and I never saw her actually do any of the intaking. Again, 513 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: I found more pods, and I thought it was curious, like, 514 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: if I have her instrument of vaping, why are all 515 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: these pods here? Because she was borrowing them. And what 516 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: I realized in this vaping community is that it is 517 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: a community, So whoever has the instrument the jewel shares it, 518 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: so it's not like everyone owns one is passed around, 519 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: and it is something that they do activity wise together, 520 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: so that pen is part of their socialization. And all 521 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: these pods meant that they were doing it all the time. 522 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: So it didn't matter that she didn't actually have the 523 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 1: device as long as she was supplying some of the 524 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: fuel or the pods. Correct, she you know, it was 525 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: all's fair? Correct? So when did you realize this was 526 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: a problem? So then the media started to catch on 527 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: and I started reading articles and I really started to 528 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: get concerned. Concerned. That accelerated this fall as news of 529 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: vaping related illnesses began to spread and her daughter left 530 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: for college, still vaping to this day. My daughter does 531 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: not buy it. She does not believe it is as 532 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: bad for you as all the hype says. Even now, 533 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: even given the cover stories, even given all the reports 534 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: and the media, the c d C taking the flavors 535 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: off the market, all these developments, and she's still isn't 536 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: convinced that it's not good for her. So we're going 537 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: to have this conversation. It's interesting. She just turned eighteen 538 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: last week, and when we had our phone call with her, 539 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: our weekly check in, she said, would you and Grandma 540 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: stop sending me all the articles. I'm gonna quit. I'm 541 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: gonna quit. What is your overriding emotion right now about 542 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: this whole thing. I'm scared. I'm scared for her, I'm 543 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: scared for all the kids. Because with cigarettes it was 544 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: harder to hide, right, you could smell it, you could 545 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: see it. Vaping is undercover, so parents who typically regulate 546 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: that can't see it. They can't see when their child 547 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: is participating, and we have to. Laurie's far from alone 548 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: and feeling frustrated and afraid, and her daughter is far 549 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: from alone and her struggles to quit. So where do 550 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: we go from here to a top addiction expert who 551 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: has some answers. That's next on next question. Hi, Hi, 552 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: Dr Avery, so nice to meet you. Thanks so much 553 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: for doing this. I decided to make an appointment with 554 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 1: Dr Jonathan Avery. He's the director of Addiction Psychiatry at 555 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: the Wild Cornell Medical Center here in New York. In 556 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: other words, he knows what he's talking about when it 557 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: comes to addiction and nicotine, and he has a very 558 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,479 Speaker 1: pragmatic approach to tackling the vaping epidemic. The whole issue 559 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: completely exploded this fall. Not to point fingers, Dr Avery, 560 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: but where the hell we're all the health professionals while 561 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: this was becoming an epidemic. It turns out we're not 562 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: much different than anyone else. And I think we were 563 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: may be seduced a little bit too about this idea 564 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: of having a safer product potentially than than cigarettes. But 565 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: I think those on the addiction side were like, you know, 566 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: we feel like we're doctors in the nineteen fifties when 567 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: they were smoking with patients themselves and their white in 568 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: their white jackets stuff in a way, and actually even 569 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: featured in commercials, right, And so we had a feeling 570 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: from the beginning, Hey, this is going to turn out 571 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: similar where the that is going to come out, and 572 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: it's not going to be positive. I mean, there's no 573 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: way it's going to come out positive. At a minimum, 574 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: it's going to be all negative. And so that's sort 575 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: of what happened. The numbers of kids using are are 576 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: just outrageous. Sometimes some high schools tell me that half 577 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: or more are using it around New York City, and 578 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: seriously half. And it just became such a part of culture, 579 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: and um, what we learned if you ask these same 580 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: kids a year ago, is this harmful? They would say no. 581 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: A lot didn't know nicotine was in it. They just 582 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: sort of knew it was like this flavor, new product 583 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: that might be fun. And so everyone was sharing it, 584 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: using it, you know, became a part of um schools 585 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: and everything else, and so it's sort of everywhere, and 586 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: parents weren't the wiser. That's where you come in, Dr 587 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: Avery as a psychiatrist, heer who's a specialist in addiction. 588 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: You know, you're our man, So what should parents do? 589 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: Why always commend checking your own pulse first before going 590 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: into a conversation with kids. You know, I think where 591 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: it goes wrong is when you come in hot and 592 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: you know you're you're both sort of upset, and you 593 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: know when you've got them in that I got you moment. 594 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: And what I'm encouraging parents to do really around all 595 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: substance used behaviors is to have the conversation early and 596 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: often in a non judgmental way, and so to get 597 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: to the bottom of what they know about the product, 598 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: why they think the kids are using or not. And really, 599 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean some recommend as early as nine starting the conversation, 600 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: some a little later. And while that talk might not 601 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: be easy, Dr Avery says it could uncover factors that 602 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: might be driving kids to vape in the first place. 603 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: I think it's just being there from the beginning with 604 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: your kid, letting them know that how they are as 605 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: a person, substance use, mental health issues are important to 606 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: you as a parent. I'll say it's true for everyone. 607 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: But if it's true, you know, more important than all 608 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: this academic stuff and all these other pressures and completing 609 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: your piano homework or whatever it is, that it really 610 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: is their development as a person. And this includes checking 611 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: in on what's going on in terms of substance use 612 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: and so you're not going to solve it all in 613 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: one interaction, and you're not gonna, you know, have the 614 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: magic words at any moment, but just sort of saying 615 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: this is important to me. We're gonna keep talking about it. 616 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: Let's pay attention to what's happening with the news with 617 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: jewel or these electronic nicote delivery systems, and let's just 618 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: have this conversation together. And if you're not ready now, 619 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: I'm ready tomorrow and and we're there in this together. 620 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: I can see why some parents are panicked. You know, 621 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: you're reading about popcorn lung you're reading about reduced lung capacity. 622 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I would be freaked out as a mom 623 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: if I knew that one of my kids are both 624 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: my kids or whatever, that they were doing this enough 625 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: to really damage their health. And to be like, we're 626 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: ready to talk about it whenever you are. I'm sorry. 627 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: In my house, that dog would not hunt. I think 628 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: that's true for you know though, it's it's tough because 629 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: you want kids to have the information. You don't want 630 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: to get in trouble, but you don't want to push 631 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: these behaviors into the secrets. And my worry about people 632 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: that come down too strong is that the kids go 633 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: the opposite direction, and then you're playing catch up years later. Um. 634 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 1: So I'm arguing this more almost as prevention. If things 635 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: do get really bad, then certainly intervening and getting them 636 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: to help. And and while they're still eighteen, you can 637 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: sort of do more things against the world than after 638 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: their eighteen um. And so if it looks like they're 639 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, they need, then urgent intervention and then certainly 640 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: do it. But for most kids, there's this space where 641 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: you're preventing it or they're experimenting, where you can start 642 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: the conversation. If you're starting the conversation after they're you know, 643 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: in trouble, then then everyone's in trouble in that that system. 644 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: I feel like the student body needs to get involved 645 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: because so much is pure pressure, right, and so much 646 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: of this activity is going on at school or at 647 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: school functions or outside school functions. So it seems to 648 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: me there has to be a really holistic approach to 649 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: this issue, right. And I think as kids are hearing 650 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: this news, there is sort of this surge in the 651 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: other direction of people posting on social media they have 652 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: quit and that they are motivated to stop using and 653 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: and I've I've heard because when I asked the question 654 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: our friends quitting and a year ago, no one knew 655 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: anyone who had stopped. But now it's increasingly common that people, 656 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: I mean one thing about it. Also in substance use, 657 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: as perceived harm goes up, use goes down. Kids don't 658 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: want to get hurt. Actually they don't want bad things 659 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: to happen to them. And you know, as they see 660 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: their peer group and the momentum shifting in the other direction, 661 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: I think more will quit. I think why smoking was 662 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: smoking sort of you know, it came on over a 663 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: number of years, slowly dissipated. And this is one instance 664 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: where I think social media and the sort of fast 665 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: NewSpace that we have today can be helpful because we're 666 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: getting all this information fast in real time. The CDC 667 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: updates that reports every Thursday. It's sort of a just 668 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: a different way that information is getting out there that 669 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: I think we can all digest and modify behaviors quicker, 670 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: hopefully than what took decades with cigarettes. They started doing 671 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: p S a S. And there are a lot of organizations, 672 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: parent groups I know on Facebook who really cared deeply 673 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: about this issue and making sure that kids are not 674 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: harming themselves. But why is it so hard to kick 675 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: this habit? Or is it really hard? Well, I think 676 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that has lost in the hysteria 677 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: of all this is that most people will quit on 678 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: their own, and so most people haven't been using in 679 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: a way that where they'll get stuck and they'll be 680 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: able to say either from that semi successful intervention I 681 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: just had with you talking to your parent, or with 682 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of the pure environment, they'll be 683 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: able to, um, say hey, I don't want this for myself, 684 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: and they'll actually be able to stop. And one thing 685 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: I've noticed over the last couple of months is I've 686 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: gone into different high schools. There's a bunch of people 687 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: that have stopped on their own, never needed to see 688 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: me as an addiction provider or even their pediatrician, and 689 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: we're able to just stop. And so I think that's 690 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the good news. So what advice would you give kids 691 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: like that who are really struggling to kick the habit. Yeah, 692 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: if they've tried and they can't, and um, I think 693 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: the first thing to do is make people aware. Um, 694 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: that's my advice for kids. Addiction hides in the secrets, 695 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: if you can be honest and forthcoming about it, you know, 696 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: talk to your parents and pediatrician, you know, I think 697 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: help will be there. And you know, not every family 698 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: is able to do it. Not every pediatrician sort of 699 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: aware about this, but I think most are and most 700 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: want to help regardless, and so if they can just 701 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: get that secret out, get into the hands of a pediatrician, 702 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: they can help assess if you I need to refer 703 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: you to a psychiatrist to help with or therapist to 704 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: help with the anxiety depression. That's a big step. Though. 705 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: What about school nurses, They're they're so available. I think 706 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: about the school nurse and my daughter's high school that 707 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: that was just wonderful and was really a part of 708 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: the school community. I feel like they could be really 709 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: effective without reach. Now I think that's right. I think 710 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: they're the ones that are the front line, and and 711 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: that's why pediatrician sometimes of the front line to they're 712 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: the ones that should be asking about it, you know, 713 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: offering support. School counselors another good resource for people struggling 714 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: with different things. And then I think where you might 715 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: need medical attention and not all nurses can do it 716 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: is if you really need sort of like nicotine replacement 717 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: to come off it. If you need the patch or 718 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: the gum to sort of soothe that difficult with those cravings. Well, 719 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, do you recommend the 720 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: patch or nicotine gum. It's a little bit of a 721 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: difficult space because it's not f D approved under eighteen 722 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: um UM, and there is a way carefully. Often you 723 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: need parents intervention to help buy it or get permission 724 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: for the prescription um. But there is We are for 725 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: those folks that are stuck doing sort of a brief 726 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: course of of nicotine replacement, the patch or the gum, 727 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: which we definitely prefer than people going to cigarettes or 728 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: other measures. As they become concerned about these devices, you know, 729 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: better not go to cigarettes again, Better to you know, 730 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 1: get tapered off of nicotine if you really need it. 731 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: Is it better to withdraw gradually or should you go 732 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: cold turkey? It's different for everyone. Some people can tolerate it, 733 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: and often those without co occurring mental illness anxiety, and 734 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: those you know, without the predisposition for addiction. You know 735 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of kids I've met have said, you know, 736 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: I just decided to stop one day and it was 737 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: miserable for a couple of days, but I wrote it out. 738 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: And then there is that subset that says, this withdrawal 739 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: was the worst thing I've ever experienced in my entire life. 740 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: And for those folks, they really need help with a 741 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 1: patch more gradually, and stopping all at once will feel 742 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: intolerable to them. How long does it take? Generally it 743 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: takes seventy two hours to get nicotine out of your system, 744 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: correct as everyone knows who's you're in screen for it 745 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,919 Speaker 1: or who every parent is is jumping on them. Yeah, 746 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: you know it can be out that short of time, 747 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: but we've come to appreciate that withdrawal from all substances 748 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: can be a much longer process. And you know, we're 749 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: increasingly talking about sort of post acute withdrawal symptoms, which 750 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: you know are those anxiety symptoms, the inability to concentrate 751 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: and focus, feeling sort of like you've been you know, 752 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: punched in the stomach and don't have the energy and 753 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: breath to to go about your life. And and so 754 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: those things sometimes become the harder barrier as all these 755 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: other pressures from life bear down on these kids, right, 756 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: I mean, they have to go to soccer practice and 757 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: piano lessons and still want to interact with their friends 758 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: and do well academically. There's so much academic pressure on 759 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: these kids, so not to mention social media and all 760 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: the social pressure that comes with that and living your 761 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: life compared to other people, your peers. So I feel 762 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: bad for kids today with all the comparisons, with all 763 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: the pressures, and going back to how parents should talk 764 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: to kids, I mean, we over focus on academics, on 765 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: doing you know, hitting those marks socially and and and academically, 766 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: and we really need to be telling our kids it's 767 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: okay to be them no matter what happens in life. 768 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: Getting back to vaping, there are some real world consequences, 769 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: physical consequences to this habit. How lunch should you be 770 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: when you're talking to your kids about things like popcorn 771 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: lung and decreased lung capacity and things like that. I mean, 772 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 1: I think you have to be pretty honest, right, Yeah. 773 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: They need to know the information, and you know, it's 774 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of them get it. I mean, 775 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: kids get info pretty quick these days, and they're hearing 776 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: it at school and so in an ideal parent kid 777 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: relations ship, they're giving you the information, and you're not 778 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: giving them the information. So I always recommend checking first 779 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: to see what the kids know, and often they know 780 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: a lot. You do have to really check yourself first, 781 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: and if you say mindful parenting, people really realize at you. 782 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: But there is something about that that I think is 783 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: important that you You can't, you know, look at your 784 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: kids behaviors without first looking at your thoughts and feelings 785 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: and also your own substance use. I have to add, 786 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, there are parents who you know, want in 787 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: all kinds of ways. They've set the model for their kids. Right. 788 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: They're the ones taking the drink or two when they 789 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: come home and saying, I'm so stressed, get me a 790 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: beer to the kid or whatever. They're the ones that 791 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: are jeweling and vaping some themselves, including you know, vaping 792 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: marijuana product that's smoking cigarettes or smoking cigarettes, and so 793 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think often we ask things of our 794 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: kids we don't ourselves, and and you really have to 795 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: look internally as a parent before you're you're going to 796 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,479 Speaker 1: help them, I think. But it's hard, and you'll fail 797 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: all the time. And to be a parent is to fail, right, 798 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: and and the idea is to just get back on 799 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: the horse and and think about what was going on 800 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: with you at that moment and try to get things 801 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: that going in a positive direction. Again, what's the biggest 802 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: mistake parents make when they're trying to get their kids 803 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: to stop to view it as a bad kid doing 804 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: bad things? And I think the biggest mistake is not 805 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: sort of appreciating that this does veer into a disease 806 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: model of addiction and and kids are self medicating psychiatric 807 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: issues or they're predisposed to addiction, and that you know 808 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people will experiment and not get hooked 809 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: the way their kid is and and not behave the 810 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 1: way their kid is. And there's a reason why it's happening. 811 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: And and often it's the sort of idea that it's 812 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: activated these reward pathways or satisfying this psychiatric need where 813 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: it becomes the answer to all questions for the kid 814 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: during the day, how they're going to survive, how they're 815 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: going to starve off withdrawal, and it's sort of hijacked 816 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: their brain. And one saying in recovery that I love 817 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: especially and and and people who when they stop jeweling 818 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: or stop using whatever product often identify with is that 819 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: I'm not a bad person becoming good, but I'm a 820 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: sick person becoming well. And I think that's one of 821 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: the key points that these aren't just troublemakers, that these 822 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: are kids who have had brain hijacked by this you know, 823 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: seductive product, and now we're trying to you know, feel 824 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: right and get the ship on track. Wow. I cannot 825 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: believe how much has changed between August when we first 826 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: started researching this episode and today, now that we're finally 827 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: airing it. You could barely keep up with all the developments. 828 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: It's still shocking to me that all of us, from 829 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 1: the medical community to educators, to parents and even kids 830 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 1: were caught so off guard and why there was definitely 831 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: a lot of smoke and mirrors when it came to 832 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: marketing babes as cool, glamorous, even safe, the same way incidentally, 833 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: cigarettes once were. The advertising was almost as stealthy as 834 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: the vapes themselves. But now this epidemic is out in 835 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: the open, and everyone from local officials to schools to 836 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 1: even the Trump administration is trying to figure out what 837 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: to do about it, from banning flavors to out lawe 838 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: the devices altogether. We haven't heard the end of this 839 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: story that at least now we're paying attention. Thanks so 840 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: much for listening, everyone, and until we meet again, make 841 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: sure to follow me on Instagram. I'm at Katie Curik 842 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: and sign up for my daily newsletter is called wake 843 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: Up Call, and you can do that by going to 844 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: Katie Currek dot com. Next Question with Katie Curic is 845 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. 846 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Katie Kuric, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas, 847 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: and Tyler Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Macaluso and 848 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers 849 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens. Editing is by Dylan Fagin, 850 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,320 Speaker 1: Derrek Clements, and Lowell Berlante. Our researcher is Barbara Keene. 851 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: For more information on today's episode, go to Katie Currek 852 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: dot com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at 853 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: Katie Couric m. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 854 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 855 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.