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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and a of fome.

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Speaker 2: Stuff I've never told you protective of iHeartRadio, and today

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Speaker 2: we are so excited and a little nervous to be

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Speaker 2: joined by the amazing, award winning activist, author and podcaster

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Speaker 2: Raquel Willis. Thank you so much for taking the time

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Speaker 2: out of your very busy schedule for kel of.

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Speaker 3: Course, Well, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm returning home in a sense to Sminty.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because you have been on Sminty before. We were

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Speaker 2: just talking about this and we are going to talk

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Speaker 2: about it a bit more because you did work at

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Speaker 2: how Stuff Works as it was at the time you

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Speaker 2: were on Sminty when it was Kristen and Caroline. You've

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Speaker 2: been in Atlanta, which is where Samantha and I live. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and we're very excited to see you again on an

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Speaker 2: upcoming book tour.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: But for the listeners, as we were just discussing off Mike,

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Speaker 2: you've done a lot since then, You've grown a lot

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Speaker 2: as a person, but also done a lot since then.

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Speaker 2: And that was a very simplified introduction I gave you.

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Speaker 2: Can you introduce yourself to our audience? Please?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Well, hello, sminty fam. I am Roquel Willis. I am

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Speaker 4: a black transactivist, now author and media strategist, and so

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Speaker 4: much of my work is dedicated to honoring the dignity

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Speaker 4: of folks on the margins, which of course means women

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Speaker 4: and folks of varying gender experiences, folks.

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Speaker 3: Of color, and on and on.

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Speaker 4: And I'm from Augusta, Georgia, so I'm a Georgia girl.

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Speaker 4: We were joking about my accent coming in and out.

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Speaker 4: It's because I've lived in a bunch of different places

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Speaker 4: since i started in twenty thirteen with a media and

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Speaker 4: journalism career. But I'm so glad to be on this

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Speaker 4: amazing platform again.

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Speaker 1: We're so glad you were on. I know we Andy

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Speaker 1: and I have had like a little dream list of

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Speaker 1: people we wanted back on the show. Were on the show,

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Speaker 1: and you're on my list, and I'm like, it's finally happening.

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Speaker 1: As I told you previously, I'm a little intimidated, and

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Speaker 1: as most of our listeners know, when I get intimidated,

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Speaker 1: I start stuttering or talking very fast. So go ahead

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Speaker 1: and put that as a warning to everyone listening as

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Speaker 1: well as to you. Okay, I'm very professional I'm very

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Speaker 1: professional obviously, but you and I went to UGA as well,

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Speaker 1: so you and our alums in that as well, And

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Speaker 1: as I was reading parts of your book, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is very familiar. Really okay, you're speaking about East

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Speaker 1: Point and it's speaking about Uga, and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: I kind of get this.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean Uga, what a time.

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Speaker 4: So yeah. I went to school at the University of Georgia,

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Speaker 4: studied journalism and had a minor women's studies, picked that

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Speaker 4: up along the way. And it's so funny that my

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Speaker 4: uncovering of my feminism happened at college alongside my coming

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Speaker 4: into my womanhood as a transperson. So it's interesting. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I really had kind of these teachers that were phenomenal.

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Speaker 4: I mean it was folks like doctor Nicole Ray, Cecilia

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Speaker 4: Hurlez at the University of Georgia, Blaize.

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Speaker 3: Parker, so many more.

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Speaker 4: And then I also on the journalism side, had these

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Speaker 4: phenomenal black women writers like the late Valerie Boyd unfortunately

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Speaker 4: she passed last year, and Cynthia Tucker of Atlanta Journal

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Speaker 4: Constitution fame. So I was surrounded by like a crew

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Speaker 4: of baddies if I must say so myself.

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Speaker 3: In person, but then through the written word.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was black feminists like Patricia Hills Collins,

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Speaker 4: it was Angela Davis, it was Belle Hooks. It was

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Speaker 4: trans writers and scholars like Susan Striker and Julia Serrano

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Speaker 4: of Whipping Girl fame, who really gave me a lens

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Speaker 4: around my experience as a trans woman. So I was like, well, yoped,

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Speaker 4: I guess at that time to understand systems of oppression.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is amazing, because I will say when I

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Speaker 1: started that story with you, I was like a little nervous, because, Uga,

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Speaker 1: you can go either way. You could have some of

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Speaker 1: the best experiences, you can have some of the worst experiences.

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Speaker 1: It's an up and down of whether or not you

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Speaker 1: find your crew, and it can be a hit and mess,

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Speaker 1: especially in a southern university that is dated with a

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Speaker 1: lot of unfortunate history, but good history, but changes as well.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, yes, okay, good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But you know, I think that's the story of

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Speaker 4: the South right. It is like so often we talk

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Speaker 4: about the struggle, but we forget that so much of

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Speaker 4: the resilience and the resistance is also.

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Speaker 3: A part of that story.

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Speaker 4: And actually we should elevate that maybe more than some

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Speaker 4: of the struggles that happen.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I feel you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, And you've touched on so many

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Speaker 2: things that I want to come back and talk about.

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Speaker 2: But I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here.

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Speaker 3: I'm the one that often does that.

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Speaker 2: So we do that too.

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Speaker 1: You're right with those get very excited.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we received a copy of your book that covers beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about that in a second.

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Speaker 4: Two.

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Speaker 2: The writing is beautiful. You do such a good job

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Speaker 2: of like showcasing kind of the arc of your life

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Speaker 2: from the South and then everything else that you've done since. Then,

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us and the listeners what the book

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Speaker 2: is about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the risk it takes to bloom on life

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Speaker 4: and liberation is, like you said, Annie, it's about my

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Speaker 4: experience growing up in the.

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Speaker 3: South with a lot of traditionalism.

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Speaker 4: I come from a very kind of classic black Southern family,

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Speaker 4: middle class, so there was also that component. But we

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Speaker 4: were also very Catholic, I mean devout Catholic, set in

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Speaker 4: the front pew every Sunday, ugh, all of that.

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Speaker 3: So it was a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of wading through these expectations of who I was

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Speaker 4: supposed to be, and so I talked very candidly about

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Speaker 4: my relationship with my father, who.

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Speaker 3: Was very loving and very very.

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Speaker 4: Much a fixture in my life and also in that love.

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Speaker 4: So much of it was about rearing me in a

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Speaker 4: certain way to embody, particularly black masculinity, which was not

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Speaker 4: really in the cards for me. Whether I tried or

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Speaker 4: didn't try, I was just I was bullied. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's called so many names, and along the way realized

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Speaker 4: I was different. And so that's kind of the first

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Speaker 4: half of the book is like, you get that journey

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Speaker 4: all the way through what you mentioned Samantha me finding

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Speaker 4: my trans womanhood in college, and then the kind of

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Speaker 4: the second big chunk of the book is okay, well,

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Speaker 4: as a black trans woman, Now, what kind of world

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Speaker 4: is kind of emerging for me as someone embarking on

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Speaker 4: a journalism and media career but also has this passion

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Speaker 4: for social justice.

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Speaker 3: Oh and we're straddling the Obama and.

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Speaker 4: Trump eras Oh and transmissibility is on the rise. Oh

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Speaker 4: and the movement for Black Lives is happening. And then

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Speaker 4: there's this feminist collective awakening happening with the unfortunate ascension

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Speaker 4: of Donald Trump. So all of that is kind of

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Speaker 4: packed into the second part of the book.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and it it's a lot. Like I was, wow, girl,

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Speaker 2: you have done so much, You have been all over

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Speaker 2: and you're so open with your stories and so sharing

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Speaker 2: and so vulnerable, like you talk about really what could

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Speaker 2: be like very painful things. You did say that some

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Speaker 2: of it was therapeutic, but for instance, you talked about

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Speaker 2: your coming out to your family and how that sort

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Speaker 2: of spread and like you started with your immediate family

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Speaker 2: and then like could later other people. But how how

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Speaker 2: was that for you? Like how was sharing those stories

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think at this point, you know, maybe a

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Speaker 4: lot of people, well I won't say a lot, because

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Speaker 4: there's still a lot of Americans in particular who say

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Speaker 4: they don't know a trans person.

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Speaker 3: But we kind of have this idea of like what.

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Speaker 4: Coming out looks like in general or in vice in

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Speaker 4: as some folks are saying now. But I think people forget,

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Speaker 4: you know, I think they're like, Okay, well you're thirty two,

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Speaker 4: why are you writing a memoir?

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Speaker 3: Like what have you experienced? And as you said, Addie,

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Speaker 3: it's been a lot.

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Speaker 4: And I'm also an overthinker. So those two put together,

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Speaker 4: you get a book, you get a memoir. Also, I

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Speaker 4: think people forget that I was kind of coming into

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Speaker 4: my career as a black trans woman, like literally two

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Speaker 4: months before Orange Just a New Black premiered with Laverne Cox,

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Speaker 4: the amazing who did an amazing conversation for my launch

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Speaker 4: event in New York, which, oh my god, big moment.

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Speaker 4: But that premiere two months after I graduated. So I

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Speaker 4: was already kind of navigating being a black trans woman

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Speaker 4: in the world before this kind of visibility era started

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Speaker 4: to take off, and so it was important to kind

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Speaker 4: of showcase is my personal trajectory within kind of this

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Speaker 4: change in consciousness collectively around and public education and political

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Speaker 4: education around trans folks existence. So that's been a thing

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Speaker 4: I think. Also, I've been blessed to meet so many

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Speaker 4: empowering folks along the way. I mean, whether it was

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Speaker 4: LGBCQ students invested in making our campus more habitable at

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Speaker 4: the University of Georgia, to Black queer and transactivists and

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Speaker 4: organizers in Atlanta who were fighting against everything from mass

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Speaker 4: incarceration to police brutality and on and on, to folks

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Speaker 4: at Transgender Law Center who were working on so many

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Speaker 4: different initiatives on a national level to make trans folks safe,

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Speaker 4: on to Working It Out magazine where an amazing group

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Speaker 4: of folks came together which I was so proud to

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Speaker 4: be a part of, to kind of shift narratives around.

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Speaker 3: The LGBTQ community.

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Speaker 4: And so one of the things I think that has

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Speaker 4: been a feature of so much of my career has

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Speaker 4: been in spaces with folks invested in showing the breath

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Speaker 4: of experiences on the margins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, as you're speaking of this, obviously

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Speaker 1: you are a writer. Everything you say has so many

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Speaker 1: things that you can picture with this. Your book was

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Speaker 1: very much the same. You are a storyteller. Honestly, it

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Speaker 1: kind of reminded me a little bit of the Southern

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Speaker 1: Gothic that I love to read because of the Tales

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Speaker 1: of Augusta, and you're growing up very southern level of community,

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Speaker 1: which was familiar in that, Yeah, this is Georgia, this

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Speaker 1: is this is what Georgia looks like in growing up

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Speaker 1: with a family that is surrounding you. That sweet tea,

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Speaker 1: that that description of your dinner at the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I know that, I know what

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Speaker 1: she's talking about you know, the puckering up the lips,

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Speaker 1: from it being so sweet, that whole level. You're an

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Speaker 1: obvious writer in all of that. As you tell your story,

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Speaker 1: How did this process go for you? Because not only

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Speaker 1: it is a memoir, but it is a story, it

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Speaker 1: is a novel in itself. How did you do all

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Speaker 1: of this writing? What was your thought process as you

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Speaker 1: were doing it?

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Speaker 3: Well, shout out to my therapist.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I ended up finding a new therapist during

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Speaker 4: the process because I kind of had a break between

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Speaker 4: one that I had a while ago, and we just

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Speaker 4: had some really important conversations. But I think that that

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Speaker 4: kind of dovetailed with just kind of the emotional experience

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Speaker 4: of talking about these stories. I mean, so many of

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Speaker 4: us get our lives down to talking points, you know,

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Speaker 4: and so.

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Speaker 3: It's like this happened.

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Speaker 4: I came out at fourteen as gay to my parents,

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Speaker 4: and then came out at school, and then found my

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Speaker 4: transits in college and all this stuff, and that I

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Speaker 4: was a writer here the small town newspaper, and you know,

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Speaker 4: and so it's the talking points.

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Speaker 3: And I think sometimes getting.

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Speaker 4: Our stories down to those little slivers acts as a

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Speaker 4: shield for us to not dig into the deeper emotions

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Speaker 4: of like trauma, of like the things that have pushed

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Speaker 4: us to seek validation in a certain way. I mean,

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Speaker 4: one of the things that was important to kind of

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Speaker 4: get a grip on is like, Okay, in this career

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Speaker 4: that I've built, you know what am I building it for?

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Speaker 4: And at the heart of some of it, which I've

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Speaker 4: been unpacking with my therapist, is like I felt like

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Speaker 4: I had to present myself in a certain package to

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Speaker 4: make up for those things that made me more.

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Speaker 3: Marginalize in our society.

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Speaker 4: And so I dealt with the expects hetions of you know,

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Speaker 4: not being able to build this kind of palatable life

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Speaker 4: that maybe my parents hoped I would have had, and

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Speaker 4: kind of shattering that and being like, it's okay for

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Speaker 4: me to exist, but also I don't have to work

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Speaker 4: and achieve to make up for those things. Those things

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Speaker 4: are brilliantly beautiful as well. My blackness, my transness, my queerness,

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Speaker 4: my womanhood, my southernness as well, those are beautiful things

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Speaker 4: that I don't have to work despite of, right or

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Speaker 4: in spite of I'm working in this way because of

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Speaker 4: those things. So that was kind of at the heart

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Speaker 4: of it. I mean, I had to have hard conversations

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Speaker 4: with family, with former partners and friends, especially for these

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Speaker 4: moments where I talk about ten and conflicts, because I

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Speaker 4: really believe in trying to tell my story in a

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Speaker 4: way that it didn't infringe on other people's lives, right,

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Speaker 4: So I also wanted them to be able to have

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Speaker 4: their stories while I also told my story from my

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Speaker 4: vantage point, and I wanted that.

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Speaker 3: To be clear.

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Speaker 2: I love that because we've been talking about that just

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Speaker 2: being on this podcast. By nature of like, I'll tell

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Speaker 2: a story and I know, like if it gets up

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Speaker 2: to my family, oh, you know, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: that's going to go. I think that's great that you

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Speaker 2: reached out to people and had those hard conversations because

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Speaker 2: telling such a story like this so personal.

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Speaker 4: And there's power in it, right, Like there's power in

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Speaker 4: being a storyteller and telling it on this level which

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Speaker 4: you just spoke to for yourself, right.

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Speaker 3: And I had a duty to.

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Speaker 4: Not move from a place from that place of heart

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Speaker 4: and harm and trauma, to not move from a place

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Speaker 4: of vengeance, right, And which is something that people can

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Speaker 4: easily do when they have a platform.

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Speaker 3: We see it all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we do another thing I really loved because

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Speaker 2: earlier you were mentioning all of these amazing mentors that

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Speaker 2: you had, but you also speak about as you were

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Speaker 2: earlier about like students or organizations are just like being

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Speaker 2: on like a Yahoo group and finding people that way

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Speaker 2: and finding mentors that way. And I really loved that

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Speaker 2: because I do think Samantha and I both grew up

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Speaker 2: in small towns in the South. I do think like

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Speaker 2: finding that can be so eye opening of like, oh wait, wait,

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Speaker 2: this is making so much sense to me. So can

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Speaker 2: you talk about that kind of the power of finding

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Speaker 2: your community, of finding these mentors.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Annie, thank you for bringing that up. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's so interesting to think about because life just kind

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Speaker 4: of unfolds sometimes, especially when you're young. But I first

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Speaker 4: found the LGBTQ community through the computer screen, right, which

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Speaker 4: is not weird now because of social media and everything,

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Speaker 4: But in the early two thousands, I mean the internet

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Speaker 4: was a wilderness, you know, like the rabbit holes you

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Speaker 4: could go down. There is something that I think younger

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Speaker 4: folks may not be able to understand.

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Speaker 3: But I found community through teen forums.

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Speaker 4: Where we would talk about our experiences, whether it was

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Speaker 4: from puberty and body changes and everything. You know, all

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Speaker 4: those awkward things we could never talk about in our IRL,

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Speaker 4: right in real life, as we say, but then also

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Speaker 4: in Yahoo chatrooms as you said, and in chatrooms on

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Speaker 4: AOL it's the messenger aim, if you will.

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Speaker 3: That was kind of the.

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Speaker 4: Experience that I had that helped me understand, Oh, there

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Speaker 4: are other LGBTQ people out there, and I'm not alone,

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Speaker 4: and I'm just I'm just different in this context, and

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Speaker 4: so there are folks I can find.

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Speaker 3: So that was a sense of community.

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Speaker 4: And then going off to the University of Georgia, as

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Speaker 4: you said, that was so eye opening because I had

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Speaker 4: never seen queer and trans people like me who were

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Speaker 4: so open about it, you know, and so that was beautiful.

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Speaker 4: I met trans people for the first time really who

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Speaker 4: were living openly, and that kind of shifted my mindset

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Speaker 4: as well. Back in Augusta, there were other gay and

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Speaker 4: by folks, but most of them were in the closet,

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Speaker 4: or most of them, I guess, didn't wear it on

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Speaker 4: their sleeve, maybe in the ways that I did, and

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Speaker 4: I don't think I really did, but I was just

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Speaker 4: outspoken about it. So yeah, I mean, those early moments

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Speaker 4: of community were so key, and I think about how

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Speaker 4: important it is for young people. You know, I young

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Speaker 4: queer and trans people around the country are facing upwards

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Speaker 4: of six hundred pieces of anti LGBTQ plus legislation introduced

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Speaker 4: in the year of twenty twenty three, according to the ACLU.

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Speaker 4: And the unfortunate thing is like, while we've had this

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Speaker 4: rise in visibility for particularly trans folks, that also has

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Speaker 4: made us more of a target to particularly conservative folks.

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Speaker 4: So we see these politicians, we see a washed up

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Speaker 4: why fantasy author coming after trans people. We see washed

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Speaker 4: up comedians coming after trans people. We see washed up

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Speaker 4: rappers and other folks coming after trans people.

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Speaker 3: I think you see the pattern.

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Speaker 4: Trans people make the haters relevant again in a way.

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Speaker 3: So I say all.

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Speaker 4: That to say that I think it's important for young

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Speaker 4: people across the board, on the margins to have opportunities

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Speaker 4: to build community because there's a lot of healing that

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Speaker 4: can come with being surrounded by folks that you can

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Speaker 4: compare and contrast the notes of your life with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree so much. I hate Like I've told

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Speaker 2: this story before, but when I was in seventh grade,

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Speaker 2: I was like, maybe I'm gay, and then I like

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Speaker 2: trade to God, like I hope I'm not gay, because

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Speaker 2: I knew it would mean like and I'm so scared

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Speaker 2: of it, and I hate that I've felt that way.

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Speaker 2: And I think that if I had had community of

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Speaker 2: people like who even knew to the terms, like nobody

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Speaker 2: even knew the words where I grew up, yeah, that

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Speaker 2: it would have meant so so much. But you said

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Speaker 2: something that I wanted to come back to you because

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Speaker 2: you've spoken about this before. There is there has been

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Speaker 2: this rise in trans visibility, which is great, but you've

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Speaker 2: also spoken about how that doesn't necessarily equate to vitality

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Speaker 2: and that can't be the whole picture. Can you talk

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Speaker 2: about that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the visibility piece. I So let's get

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Speaker 4: to the heart of it, right. There are people who

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Speaker 4: are like, oh, well, we're always hearing about transpholks. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I've seen in some comments for interviews I've done this

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Speaker 4: week where people are like, I'm trans now, and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: what are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: And a lot of it is people's anxieties around and

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Speaker 4: particularly cisioner people, that is, folks who are not trans.

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Speaker 4: It's their anxieties around not being able to be the

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Speaker 4: default anymore because now that trans people have articulated our

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Speaker 4: existence in a way and are empowered to own our stories.

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Speaker 4: There are people who don't like the fact that they

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Speaker 4: don't get the cookies of being seen as normal on

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Speaker 4: that level of identity.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: We hear the same thing from white supremacists who have

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Speaker 4: a problem with the diversity efforts, who have a problem

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Speaker 4: with people of color being main characters in Marvel films

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Speaker 4: and Disney films. It's because they have a problem with

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Speaker 4: not being seen as the default, and they don't want

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Speaker 4: to interrogate that they are complicit in these systems of

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Speaker 4: oppression that folks on the margins experience. Is I want

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Speaker 4: to validate your discomfort, because that is real. How you

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Speaker 4: feel is real, But I will never concede that your

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Speaker 4: discomfort in any way as someone who is more privileged

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Speaker 4: on a certain access of oppression, deserves the approach that

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Speaker 4: you take, and that it deserves the same or equal

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Speaker 4: billing as the discrimination and the violence that folks in

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Speaker 4: the margins experience. So when we're talking about trans folks

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Speaker 4: being visible, it can't just be that you have this

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Speaker 4: idea that we've got it made because you might see

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Speaker 4: us on a TV screen or hear us on a

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Speaker 4: radio or a podcast, or see us in a magazine.

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Speaker 4: Do you understand that we still have high rates of

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Speaker 4: incarceration for black trans folks in particular, high rates of

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Speaker 4: suicidal ideation across the board, regardless.

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Speaker 3: Of race, for trans and non binary folks.

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Speaker 4: Particularly youth. Do you understand the barriers of healthcare? Oh,

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Speaker 4: because people are trying to pass legislation to keep young

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Speaker 4: people and adults from accessing what we call gender firm

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Speaker 4: and care, which is really just healthcare, you know. So

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Speaker 4: I think it's important for folks to understand that visibility

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Speaker 4: is great, but it often presents more issues when the

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Speaker 4: material conditions have not changed for large swaths of a

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Speaker 4: community on the margins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's kind of funny that and I

404
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Speaker 1: say this funny as in sarcastically, that the idea of

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Speaker 1: just being seen, which is the visibility to exist and

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Speaker 1: then to have one out of what a thousand other

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Speaker 1: types of gender ideas be there, and that's the cause

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Speaker 1: and the focus when it's actuality is like, no, you

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Speaker 1: just notice this one because it's unusual, which is the

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Speaker 1: unfortunate part is that it shouldn't be that this is

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Speaker 1: rare this should just be on that level of the

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Speaker 1: population like as is in reality, it should be represented.

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Speaker 1: And yet because it is unique, you are offended by

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Speaker 1: something that is unique because we don't see enough of it,

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Speaker 1: which is the conversation in itself that that should be

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Speaker 1: the what we're focusing on, not the fact that they exist.

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Speaker 1: It's like, what are you talking about. The reason we're

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Speaker 1: talking about it is because more and more people are

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Speaker 1: going after that one small group of population, not even

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Speaker 1: that small. It's smaller than what you have heard before.

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Speaker 1: So therefore all the attacks do not. The ratio is

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Speaker 1: off The amount of the anti trains bills to the

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Speaker 1: population that just wants to exist doesn't make sense what

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Speaker 1: it should be against. There should be more antype cis

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Speaker 1: white men bills, as we see in the statistics of

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Speaker 1: it all. Should it not? Shouldn't the ratio be equal?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I say this as I'm just getting

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Speaker 1: angry and like just common sense of men.

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Speaker 4: No, you're right, I mean, come on from the pulpit,

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Speaker 4: hunting us preaching.

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Speaker 3: But you're you're right though.

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Speaker 4: But the funny thing is when on the opposite side,

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Speaker 4: when folks see groups on the margins getting rights so

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Speaker 4: to speak. And it's really just protecting because the rights

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Speaker 4: that we have are rights that are God given.

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Speaker 3: If that's what you believe, they should already be a

437
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Speaker 3: part of our existence.

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Speaker 4: But protections for women, protections for LGBTQ plus folks, protection

439
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 4: for people of color, immigrants, religious minorities, and on folks

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Speaker 4: who have more power and privilege in a way feel like,

441
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 4: oh well, if those protections are articulated, that means something

442
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: is being taken from me. I mean, that's where we

443
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 4: get all of this bs around the great replacement theory

444
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: and all of this stuff, right, is that there's this

445
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 4: idea that people are taking your spot as the main character,

446
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 4: particularly of the American story.

447
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: But you still get to be a main character, honey.

448
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 4: But you have to understand that you have the capacity

449
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 4: to be both a hero and a villain, to be

450
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 4: both an oppressed sore and be oppressed. And that's everyone

451
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 4: across the board. And so who are you going to

452
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: be in this moment? Because the information is there.

453
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: Honey, and the information including what you have written, which

454
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: as you were talking earlier about gender ideals and the

455
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: fact that really people assume something's a norm when actuality

456
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: you talked about the fact that we're all gender non

457
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: conforming in some way, and I thought about this earlier.

458
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: I was like, because I'm not as as girly as

459
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: I should be in accordance to what people said girly

460
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: should be. And this is one of the reasons I

461
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: had to fall out with religion in general, because I

462
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: wasn't kind and gracious, like not kind. I'm nice, I'm nice,

463
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: but I'm not gentle. I'm not looking to have ten

464
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: thousand children. I'm not looking for marriage. I don't need

465
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: someone to lead me. I just want I just want

466
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: to be just leave me, yes, essentially, and that does

467
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: not go in accordance to a lot of the religious

468
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: things that I grew up with, which we talked about

469
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: so often. But you talk about how this idea that

470
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: we're all gender non conforming that is important and why

471
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: your book is important for this conversation, can you can

472
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: you talk about that but more?

473
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, when I talk about gender non conforming, there's

474
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 4: different levels, right, I think in general, you know, we

475
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 4: have to be having a conversation around how gender fells

476
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: all of us. Cis hetero patriarchy and its expectations fell

477
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 4: all of us so yes, I'm talking about my experience

478
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 4: as a black trans woman, but it's not so divorced

479
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 4: from what CIS gender men and boys experience around being

480
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: told they literally can't cry without their validity being called

481
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: into question, or like the color pink, or be affectionate

482
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: or soft or sassy, as the girls talk about on

483
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 4: TikTok these days. But then on the other side, of course,

484
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 4: CIS gender women and girls are told exactly what you're saying, Samantha,

485
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 4: that you can't be a strong, brilliant, capable leader, you

486
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 4: can't be independent, you have to have your destiny attached

487
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: to the domination of whatever random CIS head man is

488
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: beside you. That is a gender failure, like that is

489
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 4: a failure of the CIS hetero patriarchy. And I think

490
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 4: with trans and non binary folks and queer folks and

491
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: folks who understand that they are gender non conforming, those

492
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: other folks have an opportunity to see us as windows

493
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 4: of possibility in a world where we can all be

494
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: a bit freer to like and live and love and

495
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 4: navigate the world in the ways that we all deserve.

496
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: And so that is a piece of it.

497
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 4: I think also in the book I like to flesh

498
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: out as well in terms of how gender racialized gender

499
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: experiences play out, right, because there's a way also that

500
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 4: people of color are inherently regarded as the other and

501
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: in fact often seen as gender non conforming too. So

502
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 4: one of the experiences that I witnessed in the Movement

503
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 4: for Black Lives was that there was a decentering of

504
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: a conversation around particularly patriarchal violence.

505
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 3: You know.

506
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: So the dominant frame was like, we can talk about

507
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 4: state violence because that is easier, I think, or smoother

508
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 4: conversation to have, because often we can talk about a

509
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: white supremacist system, right, the criminal injustice system, and on

510
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 4: and on. But when we're talking about patriarchal violence, well,

511
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: now we're throwing in a whole bunch of nuance, right,

512
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 4: because then we have to be able to own that

513
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 4: even as folks on the margins, whether you're black or

514
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 4: indigenous or any other kind of of color, right, that

515
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: you also can be an oppressor even within your own

516
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: group in that way. And so what does that mean?

517
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: And so I try to talk about that. I also love,

518
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 4: of course talking about within feminism, we've had a long

519
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: history of schisms and fishers between various factions. I mean

520
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 4: definitely it came to the four in the second wave,

521
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: where you know, we're talking about the lavender scare in

522
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 4: the way that lesbians and queer women were sidelined.

523
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: Of course, Black women were sidelined.

524
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: And created their own feminisms, Chicana feminisms, Third World feminisms,

525
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 4: and so much more. But even before that, when we

526
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 4: think about people like Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan B. Anthony,

527
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: who are harold as you know, white feminists, pioneers and heroines,

528
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 4: they definitely turned their backs on particularly black folks. At

529
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 4: that time. They were in conversation with Frederick Douglas and I. W.

530
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 4: Wells Barnett and so many others, and when it seemed

531
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: like it was going to be impossible to get women's

532
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 4: suffrage as soon as they hoped for, because there was

533
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 4: a prioritization of talking about, of course, emancipation from oh

534
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 4: enslavement of Black Americans, they turn their backs on that cause.

535
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 4: And so we have to be able to talk about

536
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: even within our progressive spaces, so called progressive spaces, systems

537
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 4: of oppression have played out throughout time and continue to today.

538
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: And you do a great job of breaking that down

539
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: in your book, Like, honestly, I have all of these

540
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: bullet points I want to ask you about Andre like

541
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: we don't have the time. Did you talk about you

542
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: have conversations about like dating and stealthy at work, your

543
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: experiences and activism, which I do want to come back

544
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: to at the end. You do such a great I mean,

545
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: go buy the book. Go buy the book and read it.

546
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: It did want to discuss because I have it right here.

547
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: The cover is so beautiful than you can you tell us?

548
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: And you have a great story about the imagery of

549
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: it and the title can you tell us about that?

550
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? So the risk it takes to Bloom comes from this.

551
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: Poem that I first heard from uh at the top

552
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 4: of an Alicia Keys album, so the third album that

553
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 4: she released, the Element of Freedom. At the beginning, she

554
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 4: adapts this poem by a woman named Elizabeth Apple from

555
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 4: the Bay Area, and it says, and the day came

556
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 4: when the risk to remain tight in a bud was

557
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 4: more painful than the risk it took to blossom. That

558
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 4: was the original version, and then Alicia Keys remixed it

559
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: and said to bloom and I love that idea of

560
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: the risk it takes to bloom because I thought.

561
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 3: Of these moments that I'm chronically.

562
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 4: In my life where I didn't know what lie on

563
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 4: the other side of being vulnerable and being authentic, whether

564
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: it was at fourteen when I was figuring out how

565
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 4: it was going to come out as gay to my parents, or.

566
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 3: At twenty when I was trying to figure out.

567
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: How it was going to come out as trans to

568
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: my family and the world, or what kind of career

569
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 4: I could have after I was so deeply impacted by

570
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 4: the death by suicide of a young trans girl named

571
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: Leelah Alcorn in twenty fourteen, and on and on. So

572
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 4: that idea of taking a risk and how that has

573
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 4: played out beautifully throughout my life. I have no regrets

574
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: whatsoever for anything, whether it was struggles and difficult times,

575
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 4: moving through those things has allowed me to bloom. And

576
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 4: I know that blooming, of course, is not a one

577
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 4: time thing, just like I say revolution and it is

578
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 4: not a one time thing at the epilogue of the book.

579
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 3: It's something that we are called to do over and.

580
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 4: Over again, and I hope that we can be encouraged

581
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 4: to do that by sharing our stories like the ones

582
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 4: I'm trying to share in this book. Now with the image,

583
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 4: I was so proud to be able to bring on

584
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 4: Texas Isaiah, who is a phenomenal photographer who I know

585
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 4: in community, powerful black trans masculine person who is constantly

586
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: showing up, has a deep sense of self determination and

587
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 4: autonomy for black trans folks, believes in black trans power

588
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 4: and really hooked me.

589
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: Up with this and I was able to shoot it at.

590
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 4: A black trans led organization, studio, black Transfems, and the

591
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: Arts here in New York. So there's a lot of

592
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 4: power behind the creation of this image and the crew

593
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 4: that came on as well. So many black trans folks

594
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 4: and black clear folks made it possible.

595
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: I love how you described it as a tree of

596
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 2: the magnolia tree from your youth, and like the roots

597
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: of it, but also the blooming of it.

598
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

599
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 4: So one of the early short stories I tell is

600
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: about this magnolia tree in my backyard growing up. It

601
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 4: was our neighbor's tree was kind of reaching over this fence,

602
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 4: and I remember the petals of the flowers being you know,

603
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 4: powdery and fragrant, and these creamy beige petals and the

604
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: waxy green leaves, and I remember the sense of joy

605
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 4: and pleasure in seeing these flowers.

606
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 3: But also this.

607
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 4: Like lightning boat of fear came came and struck me

608
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 4: because I knew that as someone being raised as a boy,

609
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 4: I was not supposed to like flowers, and so I

610
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: was not supposed to want to feel precious or be

611
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 4: beautiful or soft or deserving of affection.

612
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: And so that is a theme that I returned to

613
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: throughout the book.

614
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: Yes, another theme that you have throughout the book is

615
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: that you write letters to the dead, and that kind

616
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: of transitions really well into our next part because you

617
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: also are so busy.

618
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 3: You have a powerm on transition.

619
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: I know, I'm really good. You also have a podcast

620
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: coming out, yes, that is called Afterlives the Leileen Polanco Story,

621
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: and one of the letters you have in the book

622
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: is to Layleen. So can you tell us about this podcast?

623
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

624
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 4: So, Leyleen Polanco was a twenty seven year old Afro

625
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 4: Latina transgender a woman who died in Riker's custody in

626
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 4: June of twenty nineteen. I first heard about her from

627
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 4: a dear friend and fellow organizer, Elil Cruz, who at

628
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: that time was working at the Anti Violence Project in

629
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 4: New York and within days it became clear to me

630
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: there was this emerging movement from Eliel's efforts, but also

631
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: from the sister of Leileen, Melania Brown, her efforts, and

632
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 4: then of course this vast community that mourned her death.

633
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 4: And it's so important for us to tell this story

634
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 4: because we're having a conversation around state violence that we

635
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 4: often don't discuss and neglect in particular of someone like Leileen.

636
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 4: She had epilepsy and schizophrenia, and so being held in

637
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 4: solitary confinement, which happened after she was already held on

638
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: a five hundred dollar bill that her family did not

639
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 4: know about, after already experiencing harassment and arrest around sex

640
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 4: work from New York Police Department officers. She was held

641
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 4: in solitary confinement at a point, and the UN says

642
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 4: that that is torture, and so it's important for us

643
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: to grapple with the literal torture that is happening to

644
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 4: folks on the inside, especially black folks, especially trans folks,

645
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 4: especially women, and so Leyleen's story gets at the heart

646
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: of the issues with these systems of oppression. But we

647
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 4: also have the opportunity to do something different with this

648
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 4: true crime format that historically has been very exploitative. We

649
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 4: get a chance to flesh out the rich environment that

650
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 4: Layleen came from, whether it was her chosen family including

651
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: her mom r Sellis and her brother Solomon, but also

652
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 4: her chosen family. She had a community mother, but she

653
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 4: also had the house of Extravaga, so we get a

654
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 4: bit of the ballroom culture and how that influenced her life.

655
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 4: But we also talk about the legacy that came in

656
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 4: the wake of her death in Rikers custody. So she

657
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 4: became the glue between so many different movements, whether it

658
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: was the movement to decriminalize sex work in New York State,

659
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 4: or the movement to halt solitary confinement or to end

660
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 4: bail for folks being held pre trial right in these

661
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 4: harrowing conditions and Rikers, but also around why there's been

662
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 4: so many folks calling to close Rikers Island for years.

663
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 4: So Leyleen is a lightning rod, and her unfortunate death

664
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 4: really galvanized so many folks and led to some changes

665
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 4: to hopefully make it so that there are less folks

666
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 4: dealing with the conditions as she did when she was

667
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 4: still here.

668
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: Well, you've spoke on a lot of things with the podcast,

669
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: which is very, very exciting because there's so many questions

670
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: to that as you know, I'm sure you know the

671
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: things that are happening in Atlanta. Were talking about the

672
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah Cop City and then the reopening of Fulton County Jails,

673
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: which was one of the worst jails and honestly Georgian

674
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: history with so many problematic issues. So all of these

675
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: conversations are so important keeps coming back around. Unfortunately, I

676
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: hate that it dies out and has to have something

677
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: big to happen again in order to restart this conversation.

678
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: But it's so important to have things like this podcast

679
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: as a way to start up educational conversations but also

680
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: empathetic conversations. And we've talked about how trashy I'm gonna

681
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: just say that true crime has become because of the

682
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: exploited natures and many of the times they just neglect

683
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: the family altogether, or do it without permission, or do

684
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: it like in a way that's so poorri Fine, almost

685
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: like a fantasy storytelling level that just makes it so

686
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: heartbreaking to hear because you know, this is torturing the

687
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: families once again. But you do an amazing job from

688
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: what we gathered that including the family making sure they

689
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: are part of the story, that they're telling their story

690
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: as well. Can you kind of talk about how that

691
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: was working with a family as well as why it

692
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: is important to do it this way.

693
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean when I was creating the editorial project

694
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 4: that Afterlives the podcast is based on, I was still

695
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 4: an out magazine. But I will say I think that

696
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 4: was one of those moments in my career where my

697
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: community organizing background really gave me the tools to hold

698
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: court in a way for grieving families like Leyleen's because

699
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 4: I knew that I wanted to make sure that we

700
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 4: did our due diligence, that they were a part of

701
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 4: this project that we were creating, and I was able

702
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 4: to have some beautiful conversations with her sister, be in

703
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: community with her sister, get her blessing to elevate her

704
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 4: story because we also don't always see that. You know,

705
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 4: when folks of color, particularly women, are murdered or killed

706
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 4: or die by harrowing means, there have been many cases

707
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 4: where the family was not affirming of them and so

708
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 4: was not invested in folks knowing more about the story

709
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 4: of their slain family. Member much less know more about

710
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 4: them as a trans person who maybe experience the hate.

711
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 3: Crime, so that was important.

712
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 4: I think it's also just been key to let people

713
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: know that trans folks aren't waiting to be saved, like

714
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 4: we're coming up with the solutions every day along with

715
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 4: our allies, the folks that love us, our comrades, and

716
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 4: on and on and so that's also been something important

717
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 4: for me as well, to elevate the activists, the organizers,

718
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 4: the cultural creators who are trying to shift these dynamics

719
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 4: in their various fields and industries. And I have to

720
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 4: shout out the phenomenal team at iHeartMedia of course, which

721
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 4: we know is fam here, the Outspoken Network, my homie

722
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 4: in this work, Jay Brunson, executive producer for The Outspoken Network,

723
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: has really been such a support and encourager, and then

724
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 4: of course the School of Humans group as well, so

725
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 4: we've had a lot of support, a lot of powerful

726
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 4: people making this happen. I also got to shout out

727
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 4: you know who I've been calling my right and left hand,

728
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 4: Dylan Huer amazing producer, and Joey Pat as well.

729
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: I mean, they've just I.

730
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 4: Mean they are powerhouses, and I just have so much

731
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 4: love for them. And then if I may, I mean, Samantha,

732
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: I think your point of around cop City is so key.

733
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 4: We have to be having these conversations around law enforcement,

734
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 4: around the state, violence and brutality that happens. I mean,

735
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: we can't talk about cop City without talking about Tortugita,

736
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 4: an amazing non binary activists who was murdered by Georgia

737
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 4: state troopers.

738
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: Last year or earlier this year. It feels like it

739
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: was last year, but it was.

740
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 4: Earlier this year and really shone a light on not

741
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 4: only how trans folks face violence from the state, but

742
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 4: also how indigenous folks face violence from the state. And

743
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 4: I think that that is such a salient thing for

744
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 4: us to be having conversations around the indoctrination that many

745
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 4: of us receive in this idea that our governments or

746
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 4: our states are inherently benevolent.

747
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 3: And that is not true.

748
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 4: They are only as benevolent as the leaders we have

749
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 4: in office. And this is completely tied to why we

750
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 4: need a ceasefire, why we all need to be invested

751
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 4: in the liberation of Palestinian folks as well from occupation,

752
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 4: and why folks who think that none of this has

753
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 4: anything to do with them need to come correct and

754
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 4: check again. Because all of the violence and the oppression

755
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 4: in this world and the domination that happens, it's fed

756
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 4: by each other, right, and so we have to be

757
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: willing to understand that as well as intersectional feminist right

758
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 4: have to be able to understand that too.

759
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: And that's that whole conversation that this is intersectional. Every

760
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: bit of these different points and every bit of these

761
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: conflicts are intersectional, and it does affect everything else. Just

762
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: recently Coppcity, we've had at least sixty activists being arrested

763
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: charged with RICO, which was originally done for honestly, in Atlanta,

764
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: it was done for black gangs. Specific is a racist?

765
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: Is a racist rhetoric? I've seen it. I worked in

766
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: the justices. I worked in the juvenile justice system, was

767
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: for It's not pretty. And this is what they're doing,

768
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: and it's on a federal level. So what they are

769
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: doing is making sure that they are silencing anyone who

770
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: are activists literally, environmental activists, literally like all of this level.

771
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: It's not just one thing. It's not just because they

772
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: don't like cops, that's very clear. And who is being

773
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: trained at these cops at these stations actually do affect

774
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: what's happening in Gaza and Palestine. So just the intersectional things.

775
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 4: Well, let's add one more element there, because when we

776
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 4: think about so many of the mass shootings that are happening, right,

777
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: especially thinking about this person in Maine recently, he was

778
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 4: someone who had been trained by law enforcement, right, right,

779
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 4: And there's an exchange between Israel and the US around

780
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: law enforcement and the the practices that brutalize our people's too.

781
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 3: I mean, honey, it's deep, it's deep.

782
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: We could talk about School of Americas here in Georgia

783
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: as well, and how they trained a lot of Israeli soldiers.

784
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: We can talk about that, but we're not gonna on

785
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: my social work level.

786
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 3: Don't get me there.

787
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: I can, we're going there, but there's so much necessary.

788
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: Your lists and accolades. Girl, you're on all the lists.

789
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: Like every time I look up women to talk about,

790
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,439
Speaker 1: you're on every single one of them. I'm like, son

791
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: of them. Why can't we get her? So again this

792
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: is my fantasy. I'm like, yeah, she's on the show.

793
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: Oh.

794
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: When Joey brought you up, I was like, yes, please immediately,

795
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: But like you have done it and seen it all

796
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: you have like just ran with uh, the amazing things

797
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: you've done in Atlanta alone. Can you kind of talk

798
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: about your experience from the beginning of your activism to

799
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: where you are today.

800
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 3: It's a lot, but I'll work on it.

801
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 1: Come on, come on, gave me some story.

802
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 4: Well Atlanta, you know, Atlanta, I say radicalized me. That

803
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 4: was where I met black, queer and trans community organizers

804
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 4: for the first time who were.

805
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 3: Very very clear.

806
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 4: In articulating that they were working on all of these

807
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 4: systems of oppression at once. You didn't have to pick

808
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 4: and choose in some of the ways that I kind

809
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 4: of felt like I had to, especially in college right

810
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 4: I felt like I either had to be in the

811
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 4: LGBTQ student groups or be in the black student groups.

812
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 3: I couldn't be in both.

813
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 4: But in Atlanta, people brought it all together, were very

814
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 4: aware of the history of movements. I think about different

815
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 4: groups like Sister Song, which is at the front lines

816
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: of reproductive justice efforts. I think about Song, which is

817
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 4: also Southerners on New Ground, which does phenomenal work across

818
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 4: different axes of oppression. But my political home to today

819
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 4: is solutions, not punishments collaborative with the amazing Tony Michelle

820
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: Williams at the Helm. Now, when I first met them,

821
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 4: I was an intern, so I would leave my house

822
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 4: stuff works job and then go do community organizing with

823
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 4: solutions not punishments. Collaborative and so we were doing work

824
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 4: around the police profiling of particularly black and brown transsex

825
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 4: workers in Atlanta at that time. Eventually I moved into

826
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 4: doing more national work, which came with working at Transgender

827
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 4: Law Center with some phenomenal folks. I started a project

828
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 4: called Black Trans Circles, which focuses on the healing justice

829
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 4: components for what I consider to be the survivor that

830
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 4: we don't acknowledge, which are the black trans women who

831
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 4: are left behind in communities when a murder happens and

832
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 4: no real interventions are made.

833
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: So that was a powerful project to work on.

834
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 4: And then of course my activism dovetailed with working at

835
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 4: Out magazine. And I know that folks are like, well,

836
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 4: how right, but they're such an important place for the

837
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 4: cultural organizer, which I think is at the core of

838
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 4: the work that I do. So even in my podcast work,

839
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 4: you know, to be talking about these systems of oppression

840
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 4: that marginalized folks face on this level. That is cultural

841
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 4: organizing for me, because I believe we can get political

842
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 4: education out, we can also galvanize even more folks to

843
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 4: be invested in dismantling some of these systems.

844
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 3: So that's a lot of my work.

845
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 4: I consult with Glad and we also do newsroom presentations

846
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 4: and interventions around how to cover LGBTQ issues so that

847
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 4: because we know that our again, our media landscape is

848
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 4: not inherently benevolent. You know, we got the New York

849
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 4: Times out here being a mess on so many different

850
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 4: things as an institution, right, but of course there are

851
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 4: powerful folks even within that institution that are trying to

852
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 4: course correct and keep communities on the margins articulated in

853
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 4: the ways that we deserve. So this is this is

854
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 4: just a snapshot of the work that I do and

855
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 4: have done, and I'm excited for what's next.

856
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 3: I feel like there's a new era emerging around me.

857
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: You know, I forget you're so young. I say you're

858
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: young because you're significantly younger than me. But I'm like, God,

859
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: she's done all of this. What have I done? I

860
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: may it is good today?

861
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: What do you speak truth? To power every week.

862
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: I talk about my dog a lot. So that's what

863
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: I do, you know, That's what.

864
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 3: That's kind of necessary.

865
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: True speaking of because I think, like, like I said,

866
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: my previous field was social work, and I still have

867
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people a part of it that still

868
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 1: work in that field, as well as I still dabble.

869
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: I'll say, come on, but how do you find that

870
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 1: balance of trying to be transparent and sharing your stories

871
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: and your experiences to also making sure that your self

872
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 1: you're preserving yourself and your sanity and and your spirit

873
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: and your joy as well as protecting the fact that

874
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: yes you're willing to share, but you you do not

875
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: owe people your story like that balance.

876
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I talked about this the other day when

877
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 4: I was in conversation with Laverne Cox.

878
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 3: Not to name drop, but.

879
00:54:54,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: But I was like, everybody you've interviewed with recently, we're like,

880
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: oh damn.

881
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 3: What I know.

882
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 4: But I mean, I think about this kind of accountability circle.

883
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 4: That's kind of the language I was using that I have,

884
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's my family, my mom, my sister,

885
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 4: and my brother, or my chosen family, my sisters like

886
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 4: Tony Michelle Williams, Risid, my friend Chris Guitarelli and so

887
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 4: many others. Right, they are a part of this circle

888
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 4: that I can just be unruly and messy with right

889
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 4: and kind of be held accountable to my values around authenticity, vulnerability,

890
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 4: showing up for community.

891
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 3: And on and on.

892
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 4: So that is key, but it's also healing to be

893
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 4: able to vent about the world. So friendship is so key.

894
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 4: That also has to be at the heart of all

895
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 4: of our feminist discussions as well.

896
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 3: You know that love isn't.

897
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 4: Just love is important, you know, It's not necessarily this

898
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 4: like you gotta be a bride kind of thing in

899
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 4: this particular way. Love is so much more than that,

900
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 4: whether it's romantic, whether it's platonic, and on and on.

901
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: You know.

902
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 4: So I think that that part is key for us

903
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: to reclaim as feminists love on our own terms. But

904
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 4: also it's building in space and grace, you know. So

905
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 4: I'm lucky to have a team now who supports me

906
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 4: and making sure I'm not too stretched than even though

907
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 4: I think to other folks, I always am here and

908
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 4: there and everywhere, But I do have my moments to breathe,

909
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 4: I have my moments to nap, CrossFit keeps me grounded.

910
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 3: I love it.

911
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 4: I'm still sore from the other day, honey. I love

912
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 4: a good walk, I love a good massage, I love

913
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 4: good music. I love good podcasts like Smanty, So.

914
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: I'm building space for that.

915
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 4: I play Fortnite when I need to do, I do

916
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 4: Fortnight sometimes a call of duty.

917
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 3: It's a lot, But sometimes.

918
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 4: I'm excited for the next generation of the Sims because

919
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 4: I still think.

920
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 3: See you just you, just shaded. I'm sure a segment

921
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 3: of your eyes that's on you.

922
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: That is true that they know none but I do

923
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: gage in the story.

924
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, so, I mean it's those things, and it's

925
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 4: also just the little boring things, you know, like sometimes

926
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 4: I try to find the ease and laundry when I'm not, like,

927
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 4: you know, short on time, or being able to have

928
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: a slow day or be able to go to my

929
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 4: bodega and they know my order, you know. Finding those

930
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 4: little moments of liberation that we can bake into our

931
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 4: everyday lives is so key.

932
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: I love that and that that is one of the

933
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 2: things I love about your work is that you do

934
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 2: You're very open about because I think a lot of

935
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: us have anxiety about and we're not on the same

936
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: level as you, but about being an activist and when

937
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: you're like in that space and people are like constantly

938
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: judging you and are you not perfect? And you didn't

939
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 2: do this right or you didn't do that right, and

940
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: you've just been very open about that, which I think

941
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: is amazing because I feel like that scares people away

942
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: from They want to help, they want to do work,

943
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 2: and they should be but they get scared because they

944
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: can't be perfect and no one is perfect they are.

945
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 4: So it's seriously, You're absolutely right. I mean, the perfection

946
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 4: piece is hard for a lot of us. Yeah, but

947
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 4: the beauty is. The beauty is in the hiccups. It's

948
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 4: in the awkwardness. It's in the anxieties. You know. I

949
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,919
Speaker 4: love when somebody is like, I'm anxious, like just being

950
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 4: able to name it. Well, it's so it's so refreshing

951
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 4: because we're told to hide those things, you know.

952
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: It is it really is in you mentioned earlier that

953
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: you feel like you're like on the precipice of something.

954
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else on the horizon that you're

955
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:11,479
Speaker 2: excited about?

956
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 3: What else do you want?

957
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, no one's perfect, do more stuff.

958
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: We're trying to wait for you to say you're coming

959
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: back to Atlanta and hanging with us on the regular.

960
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: That's what we really do.

961
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 3: Have a tour. I do have a tour.

962
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 4: Do have a tour, have a tour, so please check

963
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 4: me out on the tour. I'm going to several stops

964
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 4: from DC to Atlanta for Athens, Georgia, Gusta, Georgia, Charleston,

965
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 4: South Carolina, Baltimore or Baltimore as I say, Philly, Massachusetts.

966
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 3: That's almost everywhere. I think I'm blanking on somewhere, but Minneapolis.

967
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: There's a lot.

968
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 4: And then there will be a second leg starting in

969
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 4: January twenty twenty four, so I have a little holiday break.

970
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: Your new podcast has just released.

971
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 4: New podcasts, just release after Lives. It's chronicling the story

972
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 4: of Leileen Pilanco and her legacy. It is out on

973
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 4: all platforms and so proud of that. And then there's

974
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 4: another podcast forthcoming called Queer Chronicles in January twenty twenty four,

975
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 4: which will follow the lives of queer and trans youth

976
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 4: living in political battleground states in the US.

977
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and uh, the as we record this,

978
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: the first episode of After Lives came out and then

979
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: we listened to it and it's so good. Oh, you

980
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 2: did such a good job of like painting very intimate,

981
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: empathetic podcasts well like weaving together all of these pieces

982
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 2: and it was really beautiful. So I'm very excited and

983
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 2: story but excited to hear.

984
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 4: Now it's a lie a lot, but you know, our

985
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 4: our team has been so intentional. Yeah, and I shouted

986
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 4: out some of our producers. I have to shout out

987
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 4: Aaron Edwards and Julia Farlan on the story support. Shout

988
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 4: out Virginia Prescott. So I could go on and on

989
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 4: so many folks. Of course at iHeart No Brown, Michael

990
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 4: Alder June on production, Daisy uh Makes Radio as harmonicer

991
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 4: on sound WISEI Murray one of my dear friends from

992
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 4: Movement who acted as composer giving us the soundscapes that really.

993
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 3: Drew it all together.

994
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 4: So and y'all know this, right, It really is a

995
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 4: collective effort to get out one episode of anything.

996
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: It really is. It really really is. And I'm glad

997
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 2: that as a podcast industry we've moved away from pretending

998
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: that it isn't because we kind of used to pretend. Yes,

999
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: like we'll just say it was just this person.

1000
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: Nope.

1001
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: Yes, well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much

1002
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 2: for taking the time for being here. I hope that

1003
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: we get to see you in Atlanta. You're like our

1004
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: best friend.

1005
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: Now.

1006
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 3: Oh well, come out.

1007
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: Checked off my dream list, so thank you for.

1008
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 3: That, of course, and I'm always here.

1009
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 4: Just look over your shoulder, honey, I love it.

1010
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: You are welcome back anytime. Where can the good listeners

1011
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: find you?

1012
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 4: Yes, well, you can find out about all of these

1013
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 4: projects at Roquelwillis dot com, including the tour, and of

1014
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 4: course follow Afterlives dot pod on ig But you can

1015
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 4: also just find after Lives wherever you get your podcasts.

1016
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and get the book. The book is out now.

1017
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 3: Yes, the book book book is out now.

1018
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: Yes.

1019
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 2: Yes, the risk it takes to bloom. Go check it out.

1020
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 2: It's amazing. Go check out the podcast. It's amazing. You're amazing.

1021
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming. We love to have a thank you,

1022
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 2: And if you would like to contact us listeners, you

1023
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 2: can our emails stephaniemom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

1024
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or

1025
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One never told you

1026
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 2: We have a tea public store, and we have a

1027
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 2: book that you can get wherever you get your books.

1028
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our executive

1029
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 2: producer Maya, and our contributor Joey, who was the associate

1030
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 2: producer on Afterlive. So go check that out. That's another

1031
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 2: reason to go check it out. Thank you and thanks

1032
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 2: to you for listening stuff I Never told you. Instruction

1033
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you

1034
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 2: can check out the iHeart Radio ap Apple podcast or

1035
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.