WEBVTT - Emily Haines 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.440 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.880 My guest today is Emily Haines of The Vectric. Emily, 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.720 good to have you on the podcast, so I can 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.600 see you in a studio. But where are you? New York, Toronto, wherever? 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.320 I'm in a rural hamlet, Okay, rural himle if there's 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.239 a lot of them, rural hamlet, Canada, United States. Yeah, 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.199 it's in Canada. It's just outside Toronto. And is that 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.320 where you spend most of your time these days? Um, 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.400 Now that the world has come back to a certain degree, 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.360 I'm back in it, um, but certainly for the making 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.279 of music and the living of life. I do love 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.960 a rural hamlet. So what is inspirational about a rural hamlet. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.320 I just the lack of a town, which means less 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.840 of the usual things that humans bring to everything, which 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.679 is politics. Like I love how we separate out politics 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.840 as though it's something separate. It's all of life. So 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.000 because there's no town, there's none of that, and it's 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.480 rolling hills and rivers and I always see like little foxes, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.959 and I see turtles and frogs and deer and you know, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.160 rabbits and every day, certainly at this time of year. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.520 What it's a completely different landscape in terms of blooming. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.160 I have all these wild flowers that just do their thing. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.240 Even the weeds, you know, milkweed. I'm down with it. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.320 You know, the butterflies need it. Uh So that's why 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:46.479 I like a rural hamlet. So what inspires you in 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.520 terms of your creative work you're writing, I'm so glad 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.040 you added something to that sentence. Is that was big? Um? 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.680 In terms of the work, uh, I feel that it's 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.840 over the years become quite clear that it almost I 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.680 would feel it's a balanced combination of these things. Which 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.080 is at this point a deep loyalty and commitment to 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:12.960 my band, and which is they're my family. UM. So 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.919 I'm inspired by the idea, just the idea of us 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:21.960 UM following through on our ideas and visions. UM is 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:26.320 now like deeply motivating and inspiring. UM. The people who 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.280 listen to it, I'm inspired by them because I still 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.000 can't believe even though there's so much cynicism, I just 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:38.480 still feel incredibly fortunate too exist in someone's mind. I 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.600 know it's hot real estate these days, UM, and I 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.600 feel pretty pretty toughed and lucky that my music makes 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.920 it into people's lives and soundtracks. So I'm inspired to 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:55.200 like continue providing that service to people. Um. And then 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.839 there's just the craft itself which keeps me busy. As 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.480 every songwriter will tell you who's obsessed. Um, it's just 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:08.160 a fascinating craft. Um. The fact that you have eight keys, 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.200 and the incredible amount of things that can come out 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.560 of just these keys, you know. And I only write 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.440 in one language, and I even still feel like there's 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:23.480 so much to be done. Um. And definitely like driven 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.520 by a sense of my legacy to my father, who 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.520 it's just like such a great strange poet, um, with 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.680 such a love of language and the idea of the 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.000 feeling when you get an insight sort of encapsulated in 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.640 to something so concise and beautiful as he would do. 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.960 So those are the things that keep me going. Well, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.440 let maybe very specific. Some people they walk down the street, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.960 they look at the people it inspires them for ideas. 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:54.080 Other people watch TV, other people read books or magazines. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.000 Other people just live their regular life and inspiration hits 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.600 them whenever, like in the shower or driving a car. 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:07.000 In terms of writing music itself, how do you begin 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:11.560 the process. Uh, I feel like I'm kind of always 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.720 in it. Um. You don't want to get too far, 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.359 but uh, and I know what you mean, like that 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.400 distinction between sort of like principles that you live your 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:20.920 life by, which is sort of more what I just 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.000 gave you. Um. But in terms of like when things strike, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.480 it's kind of an odd sensation, like I'll kind of 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.599 be doing something, it doesn't really matter what or where, 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.280 and I'll i'll sense that you know, um, something might 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.719 be getting clear. And that's why I have pianos. I 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.760 never really have a piano like too far away from me. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.400 I have one on each floor of my house, um, 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.640 just in case. And I just I'm always amazed by 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.800 the feeling because you can't. It's a humble thing, right, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.359 It's like, you know, so much is on the cutting 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.200 room floor, but um, it would be like this weird 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.320 sensation and I'll go to the piano and usually it's 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.280 just like, you know, it's just gibberish, and it's those 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.279 same mean, there's only so many chords, right. But the 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:07.160 strangest thing when things coalesce in this odd order, um, 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.279 which I do find mostly inspired by the natural world. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.039 The way you see it play out where things have 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.560 such symmetry, but there's no way that you could stage 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.840 that m or force that. But so I usually record immediately. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.320 As soon as I kind of have that sense, I 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.560 just sit down. I just start recording, and you know, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.680 lots of it's nothing and some of it um, I'll listen. 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.680 I'll listen back quite immediately, and it's almost like this 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.839 is a super old school thing. But like you need 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.960 to take a pencil and rub like a piece of 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.080 paper over in nickel and it would like show the 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.120 form of the nickel. It feels like that, like I 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.479 like what was gibberish, I can hear the whole thing 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.560 and then and then I'm like, okay, well now I 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.200 have something. And then that's just the beginning. And then 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.560 it has to go through this like tough love, uh 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.479 process to make it on a metric record. But that's 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.440 sort of how begins. Okay, let's go back to something 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.840 you said earlier. Your father, your father was a poet. 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.160 Tell us about that. Uh. Paul Haynes vast Or Michigan 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:18.040 UM football star and secret poet. UH served in the 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.760 Korean War. Didn't see battle, but he because he could 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.440 type had the job of typing up the leaves of 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.839 absences for soldiers, which is I think such a great 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.880 job to have. So of course he did everything you 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.479 could fabricate as many as possible, I'm sure, Um. And 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.600 then as a result of the g I bill uh, 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.480 which maybe you're familiar with, absolutely incredible for those who 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.080 may not be that you know, if you serve in 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.560 the army pace for your college. Yeah, but in which 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.360 is for sure the correct, succinct version of it. But 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.760 in the case of someone like my father, Um from 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.640 a small town in Michigan, he it was a passport 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.919 to the world for him. So he in his travels, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.520 UM got to build upon some of his early discoveries 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.440 of jazz. Um in Flint, Michigan and driving to Detroit 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.560 he was he would go and record um musicians playing jazz. Well, well, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.200 let's go a little bit slower. So your father was 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.600 in the military, and before that he went to college 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.240 and he was a football player. Do I have the 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.840 order right? You do? The football player was deeply high 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.040 school and I'm the photo of in Miami. Yeah, Just 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.080 so I understand. Did he go to uh Korea before 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.720 or after he went to college? After he went to 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.280 Miami University of Miami. Okay, so we already graduated from 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.160 Miami when he went into the service. I think that's right. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.560 And then while he was there he was able to 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.680 build upon his love of jazz, which is where he 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:52.040 met Mitchell Konta, whose end up was a writer about Sartre. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.840 My father had all these interactions with this world. Wait 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:56.720 wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, these things 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.960 just don't happen. Howes he get from Korean uh to 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.720 interact with all these people and they aren't necessarily you know, 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.320 around the corner in Michigan. I don't. This is and 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.360 this is uh. You know, it's funny with speaking with you, Bob, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.400 because I know that you love a detailed conversation, and 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.600 it's hard with a question about my father because we 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.680 really could have a whole separate I feel like there 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.520 should be an episodic series on the life of Paul Haynes. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.840 So I'm more than happy to sort of direct my 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.640 my tail, but as much as I can, because we 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.200 could there's a lot um. Well then let me let 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:32.880 me be let me let's go back to the way 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.240 you were saying it. So he's out of the army, 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.880 and he's traveling around getting these influences. Just give us 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.400 a little bit of the story, you know, as it's 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.520 been told to you. Yeah, that the mythology and the family. Um. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.600 So then you know, he comes back to the United 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.520 States having had these experiences. He meets my mother in 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:55.960 New York City, um, introduced by a friend, and there 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.640 they get aloft in soho and or I guess that 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.800 would have been the late fifties, early their sixties. We 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.000 can check all my timelines. Um. He shared a lot 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.920 with Michael Snow, the Canadian artist uh times where they 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.320 would share like going back and forth between each other's 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.520 cold water lofts as they called them, I guess because 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.680 they had no hot water. And then in that time, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.719 as I understand it, he met Carla blaz the composer, 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.959 and they started up an incredible creative relationship where he 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.280 would write these librettos, these lyrics for her work, the 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.600 most UH known of which UH was the culmination of 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.880 work he did when my mother and father were in India. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.160 Their travels took them to New Mexico and to India, 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:43.160 so they had me and New Delhi, and in that 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.560 time my father was writing what became the libretto for 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:52.360 Carla Blaze Escalator Over the Hill Um. And then so 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.360 my childhood was imbued with not only the story as 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.720 I've tried to tell it up till now, ah, but 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.640 this actual music and the incredible life force that is 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.920 Carla Blay Um. And there were all of these other 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.000 tentacles that my father had through mixed tapes that he 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.240 made that he sent. You know, one of my favorites 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:16.160 is Evan Parker, the incredible saxophonist who performed at my 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:21.160 father's memorial, connecting him with Robert wyatt Um from Soft Machine, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.240 who my father would make tapes for. And then when 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.920 I was a young woman coming up writing songs, I 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.120 would send my songs to Robert and he would send 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:33.720 me back postcards and give me guidance. And yeah, but 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.880 all of this in this like non celebrity. You know, 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.960 my parents are teachers, right. My father is a French teacher. Um, okay, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.120 just when you're when you when your father is in 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.800 New York and when he's in India, is he teaching? 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.560 Is that how he's paying the bill? Yeah? I kept 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.120 I don't know if he was teaching in New York. Um, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.719 I know that in India he worked for the International 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.559 School UM and I have his He got an award 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.520 for endurance, which I look at a lot in softball 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.120 UM from the embassy in New Delhi. I don't know 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:09.640 what the story is there, but I just I love 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.360 his like I'm obsessed with this idea of the athlete 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:18.480 poet like this is my calling is to hopefully master 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.680 the hybrid more than he did, because in the end, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.080 his body succumbed to his mind, if you know what 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.480 I mean. He was so such an intellectual that I 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.280 just feel like if he was able to stay with 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.640 a part of him that was an athlete, we wouldn't 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:36.240 have lost him so young. Um, How old was How 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.120 old was he when he passed? Yeah? He was seventy okay? 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.680 And are you athletic yourself? I am? I am even 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.720 more so now as a result, my brother and sister 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.160 and I all of us are pretty fired up. But 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.120 he passed away on my thirty, just before my thirtieth birthday, 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.960 on the day that we finished World World Underground, our 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.600 first album, So is a The torch was handed very dramatically, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.960 died very suddenly. So um, But what a cool life. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.719 I mean, endlessly inspiring and his I feel like you'd 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.760 appreciate his writing. Actually, can I tell you? Can I 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.400 tell you one? Let me just give you one. You'll 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.520 you'll love this so um, I think so. An example 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.120 of Paul Haynes's poem is this um poem is called 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:27.160 Practicing Safe Emotion. Practicing Safe Emotion. It was the back 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:34.000 of his chair, she rubbed. That's all. But those things 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.920 you know, you'll be walking around doing your thing, you're vacuuming, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.000 think about that stuff, you know. He's like these observations 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.720 so beautiful or something, but also like the least commercial 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.199 thing that's ever been thought of. Probably, um, okay, I'm 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.120 just I'm interesting. I'm interested in your own pursuit of 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:57.400 athleticism as half of your life, the creative intellectual part 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.360 being the other half. Well, I think it's funny when 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.319 you think, you know and your kid, how we get 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.440 we get? You know, it gets decided right in in 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.600 school at some point. Um, if you're a jock, or 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.640 you're theater kid, or your whatever else, all the categories right, 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.760 but it's usually you know, it's either the life of 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.480 the mind or the life of the body. And I 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.520 think that It's took me a long time to realize 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.800 that I really am both. And the only way I'm 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:25.240 going to be able to do what I want to 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.760 do is to have my my body be part of 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.439 my mind and both. You know, I can't just live 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.240 in your mind. You gotta the music is like it's 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.280 it's through you. Um, so you know, And there's also 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:43.160 like a practical reality of metrics shows. I mean, it's great, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.760 it's a self fulfilling thing, but a metric show demands Cardio. 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.840 And because the metric show demands Cardio, that I have 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.080 to do it, and it kind of all it's part 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:57.440 of my plan. Okay, So Cardio would imply that you 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:01.439 work out, but also are you a runner, a hike 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.120 or a skier or any of that? Or is your 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.079 physicality mostly about working in the gym. I don't work 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.319 in the gym. I run, And so how often do 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.160 you run? As much as I want to have this 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.560 joy based approach. Um, My sister in law and and 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:23.200 my brother are both marathon runners, but they're so chill 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.080 about it and it's really inspiring. I'm not remotely on 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.080 their level. Um, but you know, some people get so 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.520 addicted and it becomes like everything else in life that 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.920 you've just basically ruined it for yourself. So for me, UM, 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.600 I I feel like the formula is like I have 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.200 to come to it with joy. I have to come 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.040 to it genuinely wanting to do it, um. And then 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:51.080 once I'm in UM, then it's every day because you 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.840 just want to. It's like a body scan of really 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.280 amazement when I, you know, think of myself jumping off 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.400 speaker stacks into crowds, or doesn't even living in a 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.880 on a tour bus, or like, you know, the occupational 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.040 hazards of being a musician, just running and being like, 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.960 oh my god, everything works, nothing hurts. How is this possible? 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.480 You know? And I know that as time progresses there 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:19.239 will be obstacles, But at this point in my life, incredibly, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.680 I'm out on the trail and the rivers running by 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.080 me and nothing hurts. So I do it as much 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.520 for that reason, you know. Okay, let's go back. You're 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.280 born in New Delhi. Do you have any memories of 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.720 New Delhi? And how does the family end up in Canada? 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.520 They left when I was three? Um, I don't I 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.600 feel like it's that thing where you have pictures in 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.720 your head. That are the photographs you saw. But um, 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.440 they got work in Canada as teachers. Um. I think 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.960 it was again through Michael Snow and Joyce Wheland, who 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.480 my mother is a visual artist. And Joyce Leland was 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.840 a tragically overlooked in my opinion artist. She's the wife 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.920 of Michael Snow who's very famous in Canada. But she 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.320 did like almost like Tracy Emmon style, like fabric work, 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.320 really cool stuff ahead of her time. But I believe 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:15.040 they helped um along with UM. That's right, Zalman from 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:22.040 The Loving Spoonful. I mean, honestly, you might know as 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.200 well as I do. I don't have to ask my mom. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.640 I can't remember how, but it was just you know, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.040 you're growing up, you're like, oh, yeah, of course your 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.440 pals with him, UM and I and I have seen 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.800 the letters where my dad wrote and said, hey guys, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.480 UM any word of work, you know. And obviously at 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.520 that time it was um not related to anything to 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.760 do with military service. But the previous Trudeau, obviously Pierre 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.840 Trudeau is really opening the borders to people. A lot 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.160 of people were coming in the seventies, so this was 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:53.040 seventies six. Um, so wait, so I was two or 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.000 three whatever, seventy six something like that. Um and Zal 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.200 I think I think maybe he was the one who 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.880 found sent my dad like a clipping that some remote 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:08.760 school in the north, um you know, deep snow. Uh 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.800 I was looking for teachers, and they applied, they got 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.040 my dad got a job immediately, I guess. So my 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.760 poor brother and sister went from you know, being in 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:23.120 India two being in you know, snow up to your neck. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:27.320 And the quintessential Haynes family photograph is I'm a baby 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.120 and they're we're all standing in front of the sign 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.000 that says like no food or fuel north. At this point, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.439 it's just like snow up to your ears. And you 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.320 know they were adventurers. I think that was their love story. Okay, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.960 so how long were you in that area or did 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:46.080 you move to the city? Uh? Well, the families sort 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:51.879 of stayed there, um north in and around. Uh, but 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.560 I when I was fifteen moved to Toronto. Just you know, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.840 because they've got a lot of Americans listening, We're not 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:04.640 Canadians savvy. Where exactly is this in Canada? Um? Well, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.240 I do value my privacy, Bob, So it's North I'm 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.200 just talking. No, No, I'm talking about where you grew 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.840 up with your parents. Yeah, we're all that snow. Oh 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:20.320 so it's it's it's within close driving distance of Toronto 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.600 that you grew up. The first place that they that 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.880 they landed was smooth Rock Falls, which I don't remember. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:35.879 And just where is that? Is that? North five fars? Yeah? 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.919 I should also full disclosure and really bad with like 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.120 and believe me, I get mocked for this of having 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.080 a band called Metric and being like I can't measure anything, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.680 Like I'm not trying to, you know, I'm like, how 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.359 far is it? I'm like, I don't know. I'm measuring 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.880 it in time, you know. My brother's like how big? 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.879 How big is it? I'm like, I don't know. He's like, Okay, 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.560 if you hold two albums up? Is it two albums? 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.480 Is it one? So just so you know, that's why 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:01.520 I'm extra sketchy on those U okay the files kilometers 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:06.720 you're living far from civilization. You come to Toronto with fifteen, 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.119 but prior to being fifteen, are you out in the boonies? No? 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.240 They moved to this other town that was more like 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.080 weird and the kind of place that you want to 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.639 probably get out of quickly. And if you wanted to 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.920 get in your car and drive to Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.480 how long does that take. It's a couple of hours 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:33.159 to Toronto. Okay. So you're growing up, do you have 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.200 a perception that your parents are outsiders bohemians? Are they 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.439 just teachers and you're a regular kid in the in 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:45.639 the town? Um? Yeah, I think I yeah, I felt 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.840 the weirdness. Um, but it took a while because I 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.520 just was having such a good time. Like we had 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.200 this huge backyard and you know, it's that thing where 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.560 you're a kid and you don't realize that you don't 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.560 have any money, and then it's like later, I'm like, oh, 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.480 weird they you know, we were taking the washing to 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.240 the dryer in the laundromat because it broke and they 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.159 couldn't fix it. You know, it's like, right, this is 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.240 a bohemian situation. But I was just the house was 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.479 full of all these like crazy beautiful pieces from India 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.359 and their travels and books and music, and we were 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.959 having a good time and um, but yeah, I remember 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.080 there being a story about one of the neighbors saying 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.560 because my parents had friends over probably um uh, Michael 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.280 snow Enjoyce Weeland came up from the city and they 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.760 had quite a few garbage bags out, I guess. And 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.120 then the rumor was that my parents were having orgies. 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.320 So it was. And I remember also my mom Blesser 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.919 had to do some supply teaching at some point, which 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:43.840 I don't know if it's still the case for kids 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:45.720 now of how this works in schools where you'd have 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:50.440 to wheel a cart through or did you have that? Yeah, 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.760 so in this school, and I believe it was because 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.399 she was supply teaching French. And again, I'd love to 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.240 do a whole other conversation with you about French and 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:02.000 English in Canada. Fascinating amount of um sort of dissonance 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.840 between the two languages. Sadly, you know where no one 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:07.960 wants to go to French class. And my father's the 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.159 French teacher who's like, but I've been in Paris, you 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.320 would love it, you know, takes all these kids to 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.720 Paris and they're like, oh, it is school to teach French. 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.919 She and so she's being a supply teacher in French 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:19.760 and no one wants to take French. They make you 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.320 were a heart, and I'm an American. Are we referring 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.119 to home economics? I don't know what supply teacher is, 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.320 so it's no, A supply teacher is like a substitute teacher. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.720 The word the world doesn't really make sense. It's true, 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:37.000 substitute teacher. Um so, yes, this is all just in 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.639 relation to did I know my parents were weird? Was 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.199 I remember? My mom wore like really bright stockings and 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.600 everyone just lost it, like they were like, with this 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.040 cannot be like you know, they're probably read or something. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.879 And I was in maybe the fifth grade or something 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.520 like that. Um, so later I I and obviously now 0:21:57.520 --> 0:21:59.920 with time, I'm like, oh my god, these people live. 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:10.679 These guys are legends. They did such cool stuff. Okay, 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.040 so you're in the house living with very artistic people 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:19.000 they is it totally free form, run free, do whatever 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.520 you want? Is it? No? You have to take piano lessons. No, 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:24.920 you have to watch public television. What's it like growing 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.880 up in the house. Well, you know, it's and it's 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.920 funny how much things have changed, because I mean, I'm 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.800 only forty eight. But the you know, we had two channels, 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.720 so there wasn't a lot of having to control what 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.000 you watched because and then there was like a really 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.080 big deal when we got the box that you could 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.240 press the buttons to watch TV. But even then, you 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.879 know that was not something that could even be restricted. Um, 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.159 I did from discover early in terms of chores and 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.120 stuff that if I said that I had an idea 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.240 that I wanted to play on the piano because I 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.600 picked it up really young, if I said that, I 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.200 could get out of doing the dishes, and I think 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.119 that may have sort of defined my choices made a 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:07.400 big That was a big revelation of like, I see 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.879 how this works. If I'm at the piano, maybe I 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.199 can get away from the mundane and would be the 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.880 type of thing where everybody's doing their own thing, where 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:18.879 you sit for dinner with the whole family and you 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.080 have discussions and they pull things out of you. Yeah, 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.600 we would always set for dinner. That was that was 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.480 definitely a thing. And in the morning because we're every 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.000 you know, everyone's getting up at the same time. Um 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.439 My mom when she was working was the teacher as well. 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.880 My dad would play the craziest music like Dai Gelo 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.159 Abortions was a favorite um in the morning, which she 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:41.040 would also do in his classes, but it could other 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.639 times be like Albert Eisler or like, you know, some 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.880 of the craziest jazz you've ever heard in your life, 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:50.040 and he'd just be like, you know, handle it. Um, 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:54.440 So the mornings were fun for that? And what kind 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:58.160 of kid were you? Popular? Unpopular, good student, bad student? 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.680 I was a good student. I really loved school, um. 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.800 And I had a lot of friends. I feel like, 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.680 I like there was a lot of I feel like 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:14.000 I was betrayed a lot um, which is probably more 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.840 of a conversation for a shrink, although I'd like free therapy. 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:20.320 I don't know if I'm gonna give anything back. But 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:25.439 what did that betrayal look like? Like? You know my 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:29.879 best friends? Um? You know it's like you had Madonna 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:34.000 and you had Cyndi Lauper, And I was like, oh man, 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.639 I really you know, click with Cyndi Lauper and I 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:40.159 actually got to play her benefit. We sand give me 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.760 sympathy together. It was amazing later in life. But um, 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:45.439 you know the idea of girls just want to have 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:49.240 fun key line in there after the working day is done, 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.239 girls just want to have fun. I was like, I 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.320 love how she buried. The lead, which is you have 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:55.520 a life, you have your own money. You're like a 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:58.720 self possessed person who can be whatever you are. Really 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.439 great message for like an eleven year old, and you 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:06.119 do know that it was written by a man, Robert Hazard, 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:12.040 out of Philadelphia. Boys boys just want to have fun. Well, however, 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.240 whatever does not mean I hear what you're saying. It's 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:19.480 just fascinating. The guy had one quasi hit, uh, the 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:21.960 Escalator of Life, which was great, but his other claim 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:24.159 to fame was he wrote girls Just want boy was 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:27.199 really boy just want to have fun. That does not 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.320 undercut your It doesn't mean whatsoever. But okay, so you 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:34.480 were into Cydey Law for everybody else and my best friend, yeah, 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:37.040 well my best friend was into Madonna, which was obviously 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:38.880 very sexualized. I think it's around the time and she's 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:40.959 like on that boat in Venice, which was just like 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:45.960 what's happening? Um? And my boyfriend and my best friend 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.960 which was her, they walked me around the field and 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:51.520 said we have to talk to you. I was like, okay, 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:54.520 like you're my best friend and you're my boyfriend, and 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:59.560 they were like we're together now. Um, that's betrayal. Yeah, 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.360 because and it's because like I you know, I wasn't sexual, right, 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:06.639 I'm like, I'm not, I wasn't so and she was. 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.719 I was Cindy Lawfer, she was Madonna. And then it 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.480 was less so sad, and then I like, still after school, 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.640 I still went to her house because she's my best friend. 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.199 And then he's just calling her at her house instead 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:19.920 of me. So I feel like, you know, you can 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:21.600 make a case for anything in your life, but I 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:23.879 feel like when I if you know, one of the 0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:27.359 takeaways of my life from a child my childhood was betrayal. 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.440 So I'm very loyal and really admire that in other 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:34.200 people too. It was there another instance of betrayal or 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:37.600 that just you know, was so big that it overshadows 0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:40.719 everything else. There's been a lot, but that's you know. 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:43.200 My favorite. One of my favorite lines that I quote 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:46.080 all the time is from Michael Andrews, who produced Old 0:26:46.080 --> 0:26:48.360 World Underground. We were at the very beginning of everything 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:52.800 twenty years ago ish and he said, um, if you 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:56.080 sell your personal life, you can never buy it back, which, 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:57.240 of course at that time I was like, what are 0:26:57.240 --> 0:26:59.119 you been talking about? Nobody even were at playing the 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:01.840 silver Lake lound like there's no danger of that, and 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:07.160 there have been so many instances where I've been, you know, tempted, 0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:10.679 and I just my life is my own. Thank you, 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.800 Michael Andrew's Okay, just so I know if you did 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:18.520 sell your personal life, what would that look like? There 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:21.879 are some some crazy stories, so I think that it 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:27.200 would look like, Um, it would be it would explain 0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:29.840 a lot of things. But I have made the decision 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:34.200 that I'd rather be a writer, protect my privacy and 0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:41.720 not let let things go. Okay, you're a very dynamic 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:45.080 person who knows where she's going. Were you a leader 0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:51.960 or ringleader? Growing up? Uh? Yeah, yeah, I think I'm 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:55.000 having a memory of like something in kindergarten where they 0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:56.560 I think they said, like she always wants to like 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:58.560 be the mom and the thing or whatever. They just 0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:03.320 judge you, right, So funny reading those things. Um, but yeah, 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.720 I think I was. I was revved up. I was 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:10.040 ready to do some stuff. And did you have a 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:13.119 dream at a very young age or you ultimately just 0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:16.800 went down the road and ended up where you did it? Was? 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:22.720 I mean, it's so it's painfully earnest and genuine five 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:26.280 year old going to the piano, writing a song, being 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:29.120 like this is all I want to do, and being 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:34.520 fortunate enough to be in this environment, um, where I 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:38.200 was just so supported to do that. Even though pop 0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:40.880 music and the style of music that I write is 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:45.000 like it's it might as well be you know, the biggest, 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.040 the biggest rebellion of all time is to make music 0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:52.360 that is as accessible as the music that I make. Um, 0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:57.280 But that was all every It's just wild now to 0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:03.440 be me as a grown up. It's exactly what I wanted. Okay, 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.360 did your parents you know, you said you played the 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:07.920 piano to get out of washing the dishes, But did 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:11.680 they encourage artistic endeavors? Did they give you piano lessons? 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:15.400 Are you totally self talk? Um? They did. My Uh. 0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:19.680 I had a piano teacher who was not very supportive, um, 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:22.120 which I think is also cool. She was like not 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.040 impressed by the song I wrote when I was five, 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:27.080 which I still remember that song, but which I think 0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:30.440 is good, Like whatever, get used to it. And you know, 0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:33.840 the conservatory stuff was really hell for me. That you know, 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:36.400 I feel like my mom really did the right thing 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:38.360 of being like if you show an interest, if you 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:41.800 can afford it to try to support that. But when 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.720 she saw you know what that did to me. Those 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.640 terrible for me. The conservatory stuff was just like that 0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:53.040 is not my world. Um, the judgment. So then they 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:58.200 just just yeah, I guess believed to me and helped me. Um, 0:29:58.240 --> 0:29:59.840 you know, made it possible for me to go to 0:29:59.880 --> 0:30:03.200 that school when I was fifteen, and the you know, 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:05.320 the principle of the school that I was at was 0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:06.640 like you got to get out of here and help 0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:10.240 me get an audition and get in. Okay, just going 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:12.920 sideways for a second. So your siblings, you have two 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:16.800 siblings and they're older than you, so you like the 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.680 baby of the family or was there very cohesive with 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:24.120 you and your siblings. Well, it was kind of like 0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:27.840 we were two families because and I felt bad for 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:30.040 my brother and sister because I would find it annoying 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:32.640 because you know, Tim was born in New York City, 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:36.719 Beth Israel, whatever was sixty five or something, and then 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:39.280 they went to New Mexico and had my sister, and 0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:41.520 then they just did that for like that was like 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:46.480 nine years. And then they're in India and it's like 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:51.479 they planned nine years later baby, which was me. So 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:54.920 and then that's when they stopped all the travel. You know, 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.200 all the photos up till then are like beautiful black 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:00.560 and white photos and like Rome and Morocco and you know, 0:31:00.680 --> 0:31:04.160 and then now it's just like you're in a generic 0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:09.040 Canadian northern town getting beat up by hockey players and 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:11.800 going into puberty. That was what my brother and sister's 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:15.000 experience was so um. But I had a very My 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:18.320 life was all in one place, but they were always traveling. 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:23.920 So your sister is a news reporter, Your brother does one. 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:28.719 He has a record store um called Blue Streak Records, 0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.040 which has been amazing to watch. It's like having a 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.960 line on just the amount of intel that I get 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:36.640 vintage record store. He sells new as well, but he's 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:40.680 sold vinyl for over twenty years. It's almost like thirty 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:44.760 now something. Uh, And so many times when people were like, 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:46.920 you gotta go out of business, You've got to close down. 0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.960 It's over c DS, this, that the other thing. And 0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:54.120 now he's like, it's just amazing to see as vinyl 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:56.600 is king. And he's like I was standing here all along, 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.920 and where is this store that's in town called Peterborough, 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:03.920 just outside of Toronto, right hyd sister end up in 0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:07.520 the news business. She was very talented. She was as 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:11.920 a young woman. She got on the radio. UM I remember, 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:14.360 like I think she was just still in high school, 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:18.320 even like she had a summer job or something like that. Um. 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:20.840 And then she got into Ryerson, which is the college 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:26.800 in uh Toronto for communications. And then she got hired 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:32.240 really early at CFRB, which is the main news radio station. 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:34.600 And it was still at that time where you know, 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:37.840 nobody would blink when you said, like, men do news, 0:32:37.920 --> 0:32:40.640 girls do traffic. It was that, you know, it's all 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:46.120 very anchorman her whole career. But uh, and then she 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:49.880 got into television, had all kinds of wild adventures um 0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:52.080 in the public eye. And now is the head of 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:55.920 what's called W five and Canada. It's a very respected, 0:32:56.200 --> 0:33:01.040 um investigative journalism team that she heads up and it's 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:05.160 like prime time and she's she's cool. Well, one has 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.520 to ask, even though we've damced around it, what was 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:13.600 in the water that these two women were uh so 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:18.000 intelligent and pushing forward in their careers. Was it something 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.080 you know, you know, since there are two of you, 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.680 when you're so successful, I wouldn't think it just happened. 0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:24.840 There must have been something your parents said or some 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:29.880 sort of environment or something. I mean, I feel like 0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:32.360 my mom and dad were really cool people who really 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.160 set us straight. Of like again, for depending what you 0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:40.520 want to do right, Like you know, success obviously is 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.120 only measured by what you actually want to achieve the 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:46.920 most obvious thing. But people forget right, Like I think 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:50.440 they just distilled in us this idea, like instilled and 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.720 distilled over the years. Were like, you know, you're what 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:57.320 you what do you? What's your point? You know, like 0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:00.760 do something? Um and I then I think all three 0:34:00.800 --> 0:34:03.920 of us do in our own way contribute something as 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.880 a result. So tell me about going to the conservatory 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:11.359 and what that experience was, Like, oh man, just you know, 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:17.000 it's like a bad like uh flashback footage from a 0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:19.440 TV show or something. It's just you know, you're walking 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:24.560 down the dark hall and like the sterile environment and 0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:27.799 the clackity clack of the heels and going into this 0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:32.160 room where there's a panel of judges. It's cold and 0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:37.359 air conditioned and unpleasant, unhappy looking women usually judging you. 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:39.960 Just like sitting down at the piano and trying to 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:43.000 play something that someone else wrote, and I was just 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:47.440 like this I was so like whatever magic or talent 0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:51.560 or however small it might be that I had, it 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:57.320 was instantly extinguished in that environment. Um. And so luckily 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.759 my mom was like, Okay, that's not happening. So how 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:02.480 did you end up going to school in Toronto? Him? 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:05.440 What was that like? Um? That was the you know 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.840 against funny most people can remember, like the great teachers 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:12.440 and the terrible teachers. And so the great teachers that 0:35:12.480 --> 0:35:14.880 helped me that the one the principal, Dr pap ky 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:20.000 Um because I was being terrorized by my grade seven teacher. 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:21.560 I skipped a grade and he just I don't know. 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:22.719 He was one of those people who was like, I'm 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:26.000 gonna bring her down. And it was so out of hand, 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:28.720 and I was getting sent to the principal's office every 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.840 day and Dr Pappy was like, we gotta get you, 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:34.920 we gotta get you. Daddy here, and he he told 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:37.719 me about the school. He and the music teacher helped 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:40.160 me prepare an audition and I actually got in to 0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:42.759 go for the ninth grade. Um. But my parents thought 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:44.480 I was I was so young because I was only 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:45.840 like because I had skipped a grade, I was like 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:51.440 thirteen or something. So then we waited till eleventh grade. UM, 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:54.439 and that was just the most amazing thing. My sister 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:56.520 let me live with her in the city, and that 0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.960 school was just everything. They I auditioned with one of 0:36:01.000 --> 0:36:03.759 my own songs that I wrote. They let me UM 0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:07.960 developed my own curriculum around my writing. And and they're 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:11.520 actually every all the sort of types of people that 0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:14.759 you fall into those boring traps in high school. We're 0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:17.919 just totally blurred because so many different people were into 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:21.360 different things. And I met my best friends. It was 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.759 I feel so lucky to go to that school. And 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:27.799 so you go to that school for two years and 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:31.760 you graduate and then what at that time in Canada 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:36.799 it was three because we had grade thirteen UM. And 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:39.640 then I was at a real crossroads because I loved school, 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.799 as I said, UM, and I got this award, like 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:46.200 this big award that was like most likely to achieve 0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:49.640 in the arts. UM. But I felt really weird about 0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:53.960 like studying music. I just may be because of that 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:56.799 conservatory stuff or I just it felt like I don't 0:36:56.800 --> 0:36:58.600 want to, like I'm not trying to get a PhD 0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:01.239 in like you know, talk like what are we what 0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:02.840 are we talking about? I want to I need to 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:05.399 go have an amazing life and write about it, like 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.200 that's what you do. I probably need to go meet 0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:13.120 Lou Reed, which I ended up doing. But uh, after that, 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:15.040 the program that I decided to go into is this 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:18.439 program called Arts one at the University of British Columbia UM, 0:37:18.480 --> 0:37:22.200 which was pretty crazy and exclusive to get into. The 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:26.799 small program that was UM where you get all your 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:29.880 credits around one theme. It's a very small group of kids, 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:35.200 and the theme was First Nations land claims, the legal side, 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:40.359 the ethical side, the history, the geography of the you know, 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:43.680 the land that we were talking about, just just for 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:46.840 those outside Canada First Nations or Native Americans in the 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:51.720 United States, people who were here before the Caucasians came. Correct. 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:56.160 So I had a teacher, Leslie Pinder, who was a lawyer. UM. 0:37:56.320 --> 0:38:00.120 And you know, it's become a very big topic of 0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:03.520 reckoning in Canada in recent years. UM. At that time 0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:08.520 it didn't. It felt quite fringe e UM. But so uh, 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:11.279 such a so perfect program for me where I like, 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.759 here's our theme, but we're actually talking about everything else. 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:17.839 You can learn everything under that theme, but the oral 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:22.040 history of these traditions and UM. But I wasn't suited 0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:25.920 to the like despite my claims of wanting to be 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:31.080 this poet athlete, the gortex lifestyle and the you know 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:35.239 the latter is it just wasn't for me. Um, I 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:40.040 don't ski. I I was wearing tivas. I just remember 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:41.920 being like, I'm not myself. I don't know what's happening. 0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:44.920 Why am I wearing a patigony jacket, like I, I 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:46.840 think I gotta go. As I had my piano in 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:50.280 a closet, I was like always sneaking into the music 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:53.040 building to go, like spend all my time in the 0:38:53.120 --> 0:38:55.160 dark at a piano in a practice room is like, 0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:59.800 this isn't right. So I uh, I decided to pivot 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:04.680 and go to Montreal where I studied electro acoustics, which 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:07.560 was really cool. Where I did like splicing tape and 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:13.400 getting into analog synthesis and uh finished out my degree. 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:17.240 There was that more of the engineering or the performing, 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:20.360 so it was more the inside like I wasn't I 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:22.759 wasn't studying again like I was always felt weird, like 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:25.120 studying the thing that I wanted to do. I felt 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:28.880 like I should study all the sort of adjacent UH 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:33.000 areas and then and then just right from whatever the 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:36.360 hell was happening. Um so this was in keeping with that. 0:39:36.440 --> 0:39:39.360 It was like electro acoustics of of was learning was 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:41.400 learning about Like ye as I said, Analog said, this 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:44.240 is with the huge you know where you're doing patch bays, 0:39:44.360 --> 0:39:47.960 You're you're cutting and splicing quarter inch tape. Um studied 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.360 a lot of music history and there was some theory 0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:52.800 in there that some of it I got kind of into, 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:55.600 but mostly was over my head. Um. But it was 0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:59.120 a great environment to be in and you graduate and 0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:03.440 then and then I came back to uh to Toronto 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:10.359 and uh met by chance, uh James Shaw who had 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:15.319 just graduated from Juilliard studying trumpet, and he came back 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.960 and we met and then started It's the Key to 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:27.719 the metric. Literally, Uh so I was. It was this 0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:29.759 place called I mean, it's this it's so funny as 0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:31.920 time goes on, the story is just so ridiculous and 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:35.520 scripted sounding. So there's this venue called the horse Shoe 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:37.600 and anyone who knows it in Toronto will be like 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:41.680 full body eye roll. The Horseshoe was like the classic venue, 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:45.319 the classic tavern, the place that you started all, you know, 0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.000 kind of like the Mercury Lounge in New York, and 0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:51.680 we had mutual friends that were playing, and we were 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:54.840 introduced by this guy, Joe Phillips, who's a really great musician. 0:40:55.600 --> 0:40:58.880 And I was leaning on the pool table and Jimmy 0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:01.920 Cami leaned on the pool table, and we both sort 0:41:01.920 --> 0:41:06.520 of proceeded to, uh make a concise list of all 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:08.880 the things that we thought weren't working about the Canadian 0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:14.279 music industry, um, the band that had just played the 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:18.719 future of Music, all the things, and you know, sort 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:24.239 of committed to this life together, um right then and 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:26.560 there and said we got to move to New York, 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:37.240 which we did. Okay, So this was also a romance, correct? 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:45.239 And how long or to this day did the romance last? Um? 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:46.719 I feel like I need to ask him again. This 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:48.759 also counts as a measurement, by the way, which we've 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:57.120 established full disclosure. I'm terrible at so we what was that? Um? Right? 0:41:57.200 --> 0:42:01.359 So it's like until my father passed away, we were 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:06.759 together and then which was two thousand three. Was that 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:11.120 a triggering event your father? Yes? What was going on there? 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:16.880 Everything just fell apart. I mean it was like the 0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:18.880 end of my youth, the end of the whole point 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:22.840 of everything, which was his mind and the story that 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:25.880 you know is being created um as a result of 0:42:25.880 --> 0:42:28.319 the work that he had done and the peep the 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:32.960 world that he showed me, UM, and the way that 0:42:33.040 --> 0:42:38.560 I that I found out, UM, which was just you know, 0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:42.160 we just finished our record. I'm at a at the 0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:47.360 Kinkos at Beverly and whatever in l A and um, 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:52.600 photocopying flyers for our next show. And I was actually 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:55.120 there with a friend. And at the time it's hard 0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:57.400 to believe, like Jimmy and I shared a phone, a 0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:01.279 flip phone, UM, but I would use the landline at 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:02.719 the kink Goes all the time because they had those 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:07.240 phones there and you could just use it. UM. And 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:11.160 I called Jimmy about something like else, just being like, 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:14.480 you know, hey, what time are we all getting together 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.200 to celebrate the end recording the record of the finishing 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:19.920 the album. And he's telling me stuff and he said, 0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:21.520 by the way, your sister called and left a message. 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:26.560 He said, it's really important. That's all really important. And 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:29.359 so I'm like okay, and I'm with my friend and 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:34.880 photo copying stuff and he suddenly, um apropos of nothing 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:37.920 gets this really weird look on his face and says, 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:39.920 something really bad is about to happen and I have 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:45.360 to get out of here. And I was like, okay, 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:47.200 you're I mean, you've always been kind of a weirdo, 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:50.480 but that's pretty weird. But okay, catch you later. And 0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:52.440 he's got this like terrible look on his face and 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:55.840 he leaves. UM, keep photo copying whatever. And then I'm like, 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.040 all right, I should call my sister back. So I've 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:01.160 used the landline, and as I do, and I call 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:07.640 her and she just tells me that he's dead, and 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:15.360 like you know, I went into complete shock. I couldn't 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:20.759 remember my address, I couldn't remember any phone numbers. I 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:27.120 was on the ground in the Kinkos and people, sadly 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:33.240 humanity people just fully walking by like nobody. I was like, oh, 0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:39.320 this person seems like they could use some assistance, um 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:44.520 and I and I was like completely incapacitated. And I 0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:48.359 saw the back of this this guy, and I, for 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.839 whatever reason, was felt like that I could connect with that. 0:44:52.040 --> 0:44:53.920 And I stood up and I just said can you 0:44:54.000 --> 0:45:00.319 help me? And he said yes, UM, And I said, okay, well, 0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.000 I don't know where I live and I don't know 0:45:03.160 --> 0:45:05.680 like who I am or what. I don't know what, 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:10.680 I don't know what's happening. And he was Canadian, believe 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:15.280 it or not, and he and his girlfriend, uh, walked 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:17.560 outside with me, and I have a lot of this. 0:45:17.600 --> 0:45:21.120 I only remember because we later like had them come 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:26.160 to shows and we were eternally grateful to them. But they, 0:45:27.120 --> 0:45:33.440 I guess, got me to remember Jimmy's phone number, so 0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:37.239 then they call him and then he gets to have 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:43.520 the same complete world destroying experience of being like, you know, 0:45:43.840 --> 0:45:48.600 what just happened? And then he came to get me. 0:45:48.640 --> 0:45:52.120 We went back to this place we're renting. We walked 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:54.520 in and the whole place smelled like my father's cologne. 0:45:54.880 --> 0:46:00.399 The whole place was just like cologne. Um. And then 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:02.240 and then it was like I was on a plane 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.760 and that was just like the end of my youth, 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:07.839 the end I could, you know. Jimmy and I tried, 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:11.440 but for whatever reason we just couldn't get back to 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:16.279 whatever innocent sort of thing we'd had. It just it 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:20.680 just broke. And then all the shows were happening constantly 0:46:20.680 --> 0:46:26.520 on tour like very unhealthy um, and I was just 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:30.160 basically throwing myself off the top of like speakers or 0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:33.160 whatever else. I just I was so self destructive. It 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:36.880 was insane to me that I'm here able to like 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:41.040 go for a run and have nothing broken. Um, but 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:47.719 yeah that was how that? How did your father die? Um? 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:55.480 Just a very sudden heart failure, so definitely sudden. So 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.840 you go to New York? Now, needless to say, to 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:02.080 stay in New York. There's issues of a green card, etcetera. 0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:04.040 So how do you end up going to New York 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:05.600 and staying in New York? And what do you doing 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:09.000 to New York? Well, I've always had an American passport 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:11.840 and Jimmy had a green card. So how did you 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.440 have an American passport? My parents were both American? Okay, 0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:17.120 so the fact you're born a New Delhi and you 0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:18.960 never lived in America, it doesn't matter. You have an 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:24.040 American passport. Vassar Michigan and uh you know Brewer remain 0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:28.440 my parents. Okay, great, So you're in New York. What's 0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:34.080 the plan. What do you do? The plan is to survive? Um? 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:36.200 Not easy. We had that. We were lucky to have 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:39.399 a place to stay. Um that a friend had lent 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:44.520 us on Seventh Street between A and B. That was 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:47.560 pretty great, and it was like, Okay, it's gonna be hard. 0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:51.080 Hit the pavement. Got to get a job, you know. 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:53.799 Going out there, I'm like, okay, I got all my resumes, 0:47:53.960 --> 0:47:56.680 you know, I'm gonna wait tables. I walk around the corner, 0:47:56.760 --> 0:47:59.640 I walk into Cafe or Lynn on Eighth Street. I 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.640 hand my resume and they're like great. I leave. By 0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:04.640 the time I get back to the place, they've called, 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:06.239 get home. At the end of the day, they've called, 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:09.359 and I'm hired. So it wasn't at all like you know, 0:48:09.520 --> 0:48:12.239 and Cafe ere Lynn is a legendary spot that I 0:48:12.280 --> 0:48:14.200 feel so lucky to have worked out and actually stayed 0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:20.480 in touch with the owners um a vig door uh 0:48:20.719 --> 0:48:23.680 for for years. So it was that was it. That 0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:25.640 was the hustle, and then the hustle was where the 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:29.120 hell are you going to live? Um And sadly, at 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:30.920 that time it became clear that we were going to 0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:34.640 have to go to Brooklyn, or even worse, it looked 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:37.160 like it was going to be Williamsburg, which the taxis 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:40.439 wouldn't even take you across the bridge. When I'd finished work, 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:43.799 I'd have to lie and then change my destination because 0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:47.399 otherwise they wouldn't start the meter. UM. So we're trying 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:50.120 to find something. We're trying to find something, and Jimmy saw, 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:52.440 you know, at that time it would be like a 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:54.720 poster with the numbers on the bottom that you break 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:59.240 one off and call the number. So, uh, Jimmy find 0:48:59.280 --> 0:49:02.680 something like that. And for this like ridiculously huge not 0:49:02.800 --> 0:49:07.719 for human habitation UM warehouse kind of space strangely is 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:09.879 on the L train. First off on the L train 0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:13.120 in the shape of an l over a trucking company 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:19.920 sharedal trucking UM. And he reaches out to Stanley, and 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:23.040 Stanley is like, sure, maybe I'll let you get the 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:26.040 get the lease on this place, but can you take 0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:30.439 my dad to the dentists? Can you take my dad? 0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:32.920 He's got he's got an eye appointment. Can you take him? Like, 0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:37.840 Jimmy drove around Stanley Green's dad, um until I guess 0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:40.799 Stanley got a good enough vibe. And then Jimmy was 0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:43.399 in the position of having to pull together all these 0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:46.000 tenants because it's not like we could handle the rent. 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:50.319 But it's got all these spaces. It's like rooms supposedly 0:49:50.360 --> 0:49:54.640 for human habitation, two bathrooms and just like raw space 0:49:54.760 --> 0:50:00.279 of rooms um Metropolitan between Bedford and Tricks. So one 0:50:00.320 --> 0:50:02.479 of the first people that shows up to move in 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:06.520 is Niaxine zinner Um with eurygene Chun, which is uh. 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:09.439 She was an amazing visual artists. I'm sure she still 0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:14.879 is um. And then a hilarious cast of characters ensued UM, 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:18.880 including Friends of Ours, members from Stars, Chris Seligman, Um 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:22.960 moved in, future members of TV on the radio, members 0:50:23.000 --> 0:50:27.239 of Liars, Um, and you know, whatever people said about 0:50:27.280 --> 0:50:29.320 the sixties, this was the opposite. Was like everyone was 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.120 just like, we gotta get We're so motivated because we 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:35.720 want to get out of here. Um. You know, heated 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.520 by oil. This huge truck would come up, but you 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.239 could there's no way to like see when it was 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:44.960 running out. So we would just all be living in 0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:47.759 terror through the winter of like any minute now it's 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:49.759 going to run out, and we'll have no idea how 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:51.840 much it's gonna cost or when it's going to be 0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:54.839 And then it would just be like and sure enough, 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:57.120 you're out, and Jimmy would have to go knock on 0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:00.200 everyone's door and be like I need three hundred bucks 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:02.279 uh from each of you know, to like fill the 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:05.960 tank and uh, the sound of trucks revving underneath. But 0:51:06.680 --> 0:51:09.960 amazing time, an amazing start. And uh we met Josh 0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:13.200 and Jules and that in that window too. Okay, So 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:16.799 tell us about the music end of it. Well, we 0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:20.840 were doing uh are sort of like bedroom electronic stuff, 0:51:20.880 --> 0:51:22.680 a lot of which is represented on the album Grew 0:51:22.760 --> 0:51:27.640 Up and Blow Away. Um. We had no live existence whatsoever. 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:33.759 We were just into recording recorded music UM and kind 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:38.080 of this like, ah, there's an innocence to it that 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:42.239 I love when I listen back. UM. And we got 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:44.640 a lot of interest out of the UK UM. And 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:49.440 this manager invited us to come and like just like 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:51.360 he was like, move here, I'm going to get you 0:51:51.360 --> 0:51:54.080 a publishing deal. I'm going to get you a record deal. 0:51:54.440 --> 0:51:56.640 You don't even need to play a show. People have 0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.840 heard these demos, which is a word I'm now allergic 0:51:59.880 --> 0:52:03.960 to to um demos and uh, come on over him 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:06.400 and make you a star. And we were like great, 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.319 and we both quit our jobs. Jimmy was working at 0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:13.960 a dinner which is like the really cool restaurant in Williamsburg. 0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:16.200 Again it hadn't been there before, but it was like, 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.239 you know, it's like that time Williamsburg Win Like the 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:21.920 White Stripes was just blaring out of someone's window as 0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:24.879 they drove by, and like, you know, the Strokes were 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:29.560 just like playing such great music and cool stuff was happening. Um. 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:33.640 So but we were like, okay, we're going um And 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:39.680 it was amazingly fulfilling in the fact that we did 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:43.040 get this publishing deal that that was a good deal, 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:46.000 I believe it or not, and did support us through 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:48.680 what would would what would come, you know. But the 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:51.919 whole process of the demos for the record labels thing 0:52:52.160 --> 0:52:56.239 was was pretty onerous and I was pretty allergic to 0:52:56.280 --> 0:53:00.160 that and we ended up having to come back. And 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:02.120 even though I quit my job at Cafe or Lynn, 0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:05.800 Luckily I wasn't a bridge burner because when I humbly 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:07.799 was like because they were all like, good for you, 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:11.120 you're going Like when I came back, they just said, 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:15.320 no problem, I'm you gotta shift on Thursday, you know. Um. 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:16.879 And that's when we were like we got to start 0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:19.279 a band. A couple of a couple of questions, how 0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:22.279 long were you in the UK? Uh? So we went 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:25.120 into that. It was like it was like a year 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:29.520 and a half and did that publishing deal intop haunting 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:32.120 you in the future. No, it actually was a good deal. 0:53:32.320 --> 0:53:34.120 I mean as much as a publishing deal can be 0:53:34.200 --> 0:53:37.000 a good deal, UM. But no, I mean we're well 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:39.880 out of it UM. And it gave us at least 0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:43.560 some infrastructure UM and an office that I could mail 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:48.360 my cdr s out of in uh Los Angeles. So okay, 0:53:48.480 --> 0:53:50.600 so you come back to New York. Do you stay 0:53:50.600 --> 0:53:54.080 in the same place in the yell we did, which 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:57.000 also hurt because we had all our we had to 0:53:57.080 --> 0:53:59.040 We were waiting for all our furniture to be shipped 0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:00.799 from London because we'd like we went there. We got 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:04.680 a publishing deal, and we got this beautiful place on 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:08.920 Charlotte Road again kind of like Williamsburg before shortage completely 0:54:08.920 --> 0:54:13.120 took off. We found this cool place UM and bought 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:14.560 a bunch of furniture and we were like, this is 0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:16.160 where it's all going to happen, and then had to 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:19.839 face the fact that it wasn't. UM but happily. Years later, 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:22.840 on um our album Art of Doubt, we did a 0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:26.680 mural campaign called is this Dystopia? That was just the 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:28.920 question that we put to the world. We did it 0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:34.040 in London, New York, Los Angeles, Toronto, and unbelievably we 0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:38.680 get we're on the promo trip. This is like and 0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:41.719 the mural. If you're looking at the mural, you can 0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:45.000 see the window of the apartment of the loft that 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:47.839 Jimmy and I had on Charlotte Road. It was like 0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:53.720 the most unbelievable place and and connection to the past 0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:57.040 I have really ever experienced. So I I have no 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.239 no qualms about that time in London, but it hurts. 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:03.239 It was It was a big fall. So you're back 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:05.319 in New York, you work in your day gig, and 0:55:05.320 --> 0:55:07.879 you say you gotta put together a band flesh that out. 0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:15.439 So we played a show at oh Man. It used 0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:17.840 to be the place under the Fez Cafe, under the 0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:20.279 Time Cafe, which has now been a million other things. 0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:25.359 I think it's the Lafayette now. UM and we it 0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:28.640 was just me and Jimmy. UM. We had been, as 0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:31.080 I think from our previous conversation I mentioned, you know, 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:37.400 doing our own kind of like CDR mix UH distribution campaign. 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:42.960 So some people in New York knew our songs, UM 0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:49.960 and we luckily knew Sam who worked at Beacon's Closet. Um, 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.200 Sam who would go on to be and I believe, 0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:54.680 of course was at that time the drummer in Interpool. 0:55:55.600 --> 0:55:59.080 His wife owned Beacon's closet. He worked there. They had 0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:03.880 records section Jewels, who became a big part of our lives, 0:56:04.280 --> 0:56:06.719 was friends with those guys. So Sam with Sam would 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:10.520 stock stock our CDRs in there. So Jewels got ahold 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:14.000 of it. Um allegedly this is this is as the 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:15.640 story has been told to me. So then we play 0:56:15.719 --> 0:56:19.840 this show Fez Cafe Terrible. There's no one there except 0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:22.520 for really Jewels and I think a couple other people 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.439 from the loft we're there. I can't remember. No, Nick 0:56:25.560 --> 0:56:29.160 wasn't there because we played it just me and Jimmy. 0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:32.280 Jimmy was on the drums, and we were not happy 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.359 with with how that went. And we went back, you know, 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:38.799 after the gig, to this place called Black Betty where 0:56:38.920 --> 0:56:42.200 Unitar were playing, which is Nick and Karen from Yeah Yeah's. 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.359 That was their um acoustic thing. So they're playing. We're 0:56:45.400 --> 0:56:47.799 just like hanging out and this guy comes up to us, 0:56:47.840 --> 0:56:52.200 who's Jewels, Um, great looking guy. And he comes up 0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:55.719 and he's like, man, I'm I love I love that show. 0:56:55.760 --> 0:56:58.120 I love you guys. I know all your songs. I 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:02.359 love it, and Jimmy's you know, so dark, so discouraged 0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:04.640 as we are both and he's just like great. While 0:57:04.840 --> 0:57:07.719 joined the band because we need a band. Jules was 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:11.200 like great, Jimmy's like amazing, what are you playing? He said, drums? 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:16.440 Um and sort of like fine, cool done. And then 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:18.800 later we find out like through this sort of like 0:57:18.840 --> 0:57:22.600 grapevine of like Williamsburg and New York music people, they're like, 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:25.080 you don't realize you have no idea who that drummer is. 0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:27.520 He's insane, He's like the best drummer in New York. 0:57:27.520 --> 0:57:31.120 You just landed this guy, sure enough. To this day, 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:34.280 I'm just like, who is This guy? Trained himself in 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:38.760 a bomb shelter he built in Texas, um and he 0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:41.440 and and Joshua Winstead, the bass player, had moved to 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:44.480 New York, similarly as Jimmy and I had like sort 0:57:44.520 --> 0:57:47.120 of as a duo looking for their other half and 0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:49.840 they found us. So you can see why I'm so 0:57:49.920 --> 0:57:55.000 committed to my band. Good people. Absolutely, So you now 0:57:55.120 --> 0:57:58.400 have a drummer, what continues to happen? And how do 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:03.200 you end up in l A H. So we are 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:07.520 we have the drummer. We're we're practicing, we're trying to 0:58:07.560 --> 0:58:12.640 get stuff started in New York. And then September eleven, 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:25.280 ah happened and it seemed like we should go to 0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:34.560 Canada and um, so we did, and Jules came with 0:58:35.440 --> 0:58:40.240 He actually uh got together with his still wife, um, 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:42.680 who worked at the same place as Jimmy. Like right 0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:45.760 before we left, we're like, what did you just do? 0:58:45.920 --> 0:58:49.160 Because like I'm gonna go, like I'm going to join 0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:51.760 the circus, but also I just found the love of 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.640 my life. And bless them, they've stayed together, they have 0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:57.240 their daughter, they have their whole life, they've they did it. 0:58:57.400 --> 0:59:01.440 I'm so amazed. But so we came here and then 0:59:01.720 --> 0:59:04.160 from here we realized we had to go back to 0:59:04.200 --> 0:59:06.880 the US and that l A was the spot for us. 0:59:08.080 --> 0:59:14.280 And you go to l A. What transpires, Um, well, 0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:19.120 we had some good and bad luck, but more than that, 0:59:19.200 --> 0:59:23.600 I feel just adventures that make me so happy and 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.760 moments of you know, I still have feel incredulous about 0:59:26.800 --> 0:59:30.000 things that went down, like Alex Luke, for example. So 0:59:30.040 --> 0:59:33.920 we get you know, we're just we're burning c drs. Um, 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:37.480 no one's got any money, We're just playing and trying 0:59:37.480 --> 0:59:41.160 not to spend money and like eating expired power bars 0:59:41.200 --> 0:59:47.960 from the store and just committed right and trying to 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:50.120 get a gig, trying to get something off the ground, 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:56.800 and somehow Alex Luke I think it was somehow with 0:59:56.880 --> 0:59:59.880 this like CDR campaign. I swear he got his hands 0:59:59.880 --> 1:00:02.880 on one of these CDRs with the song combat Baby 1:00:02.960 --> 1:00:09.439 on it and reached out to us by email and 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:15.240 we became friends, and he hired us at what was 1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:21.280 then the new legal napster Um. He hired the four 1:00:21.320 --> 1:00:25.840 of us to do q R, which at the time 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:29.040 we had no understanding of what was going on. It 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:32.960 was all the companies on a daily basis, we're selling 1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:37.520 their catalogs to be digitized, right, and we were doing 1:00:37.600 --> 1:00:40.360 quality control just to confirm that the track names were 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.760 the same as what they were supposed to be. And 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:44.760 every day there'd be a no whole new wacky be 1:00:44.760 --> 1:00:47.560 like oh cool, basically just like listening to all this music, 1:00:47.880 --> 1:00:52.960 but zero you know, uh altitude of understanding of what 1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:58.400 how significant this moment was. Um. Alex Luke went on 1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:02.920 to head iTunes, which made sense UM, but around that 1:01:03.040 --> 1:01:07.120 same time he I believe it was him who sent 1:01:07.280 --> 1:01:10.560 combat Baby to k c r W. But I might 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:12.880 be getting it backwards. It might be that Casey r 1:01:13.080 --> 1:01:15.760 W played it and he heard it on kc RW. 1:01:16.120 --> 1:01:18.360 He had a radio background. But at any rate, in 1:01:18.400 --> 1:01:21.800 that period of time, you know, we got these legitimate 1:01:22.440 --> 1:01:25.800 you know, no one's, no one's doing anything for us, 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:28.400 just our own lives playing out. Our song is on 1:01:28.440 --> 1:01:31.080 the radio, and we're all making ten bucks an hour, 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:34.560 the four of us in this room uploading basically ruining 1:01:34.600 --> 1:01:40.640 the world via digitizing everything that's ever been recorded by anyone. UM. 1:01:40.680 --> 1:01:42.960 And then around that time we were we were playing 1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:46.320 you know, terrible shows in like Santa Monica for people 1:01:46.320 --> 1:01:52.040 in beige shorts. It wasn't our scene, UM And somehow, 1:01:52.480 --> 1:01:56.479 by good fortune, managed revel was that one of those 1:01:56.480 --> 1:02:01.800 shows and connected us as I recall, with this guy 1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:07.439 who did UM shows at the Silver Lake Lounge. And 1:02:07.600 --> 1:02:09.920 that was the beginning, as we did a residency at 1:02:09.920 --> 1:02:12.960 the Silver Lake Lounge. Then Michael Andrews came and heard 1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:18.600 us play. Then he and Andy Factor pulled together and 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:21.680 amazingly made it possible for us to make Old World 1:02:21.760 --> 1:02:25.960 Underground UM in two three and then and then we 1:02:26.000 --> 1:02:30.240 had we had a real foundation because the band was solid. 1:02:31.200 --> 1:02:33.439 We had our fans. It was small, but it was real. 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:37.280 We had our identity and you know, Michael Andry's like 1:02:37.280 --> 1:02:39.760 the kind of producer and Andy being people who were 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:43.040 so in supportive us creating whatever we wanted to make. 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:46.040 It was so weird what we made and they they 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:50.080 loved it, so you you know it hindsight, it looks 1:02:50.120 --> 1:02:52.440 like traction out of the box with that record. What 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:56.560 was it like on your side of the record, Well, 1:02:56.600 --> 1:03:01.400 you know, back to the reality of losing Paul Haynes 1:03:01.480 --> 1:03:05.960 on the day that we finished the album, I'll never know. 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:08.600 And you're right, it's interesting when you look back and 1:03:08.680 --> 1:03:10.600 you see, you know, when you try to make a 1:03:10.600 --> 1:03:13.520 cohesive story come together, it does sound pretty like it 1:03:13.600 --> 1:03:17.520 was playing out pretty well. Um, it's you know, it's 1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:19.280 it's fine that it was hard work. It's supposed to 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:24.720 be hard work. But that moment, I just it's just 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:27.600 hard for me to have any way of evaluating because 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:31.280 I feel like I just I don't know, I just 1:03:31.440 --> 1:03:34.680 checked out or something. Um, I could not. I did 1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:38.240 not cope well with that. And in retrospect in my 1:03:38.360 --> 1:03:43.120 own education now a bit more in you know, the 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:46.360 way that trauma affects the body and all those considerations. 1:03:47.000 --> 1:03:50.400 I realized it was the way that I found out 1:03:50.840 --> 1:03:54.880 more than the fact of what happened. And I think 1:03:55.360 --> 1:04:00.120 that feeling of like at any second everything could just 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:05.280 be lost, is it? It's causes hyper vigilance and anxiety, 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:09.560 and you know all these unpleasant sort of chemical reactions, 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:12.640 like even talking about I feel like it's like surging 1:04:12.680 --> 1:04:14.960 through my body, this like fight or flight or like 1:04:15.120 --> 1:04:17.880 just you know, you want to run screaming because you 1:04:17.920 --> 1:04:22.160 have no control. UM. So that's that really colors my 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:28.040 ability to to remember what that time felt like. Are 1:04:28.080 --> 1:04:32.320 you still hyper vigilant and anxious today? It's a lot better. 1:04:33.240 --> 1:04:39.880 I have. I have techniques um and philosophies that i've 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.640 I hope are useful, since that's my point, um useful 1:04:44.640 --> 1:04:46.320 to other people. And I think they're in the music. 1:04:46.560 --> 1:04:48.440 The the idea of the music as a sort of 1:04:49.440 --> 1:04:55.720 salve um acknowledgement of legitimate anxieties, but also a recognition 1:04:55.760 --> 1:04:59.440 that if you can't function, you know, no amount of 1:04:59.480 --> 1:05:02.160 concern and for the well being of yourself or others 1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:06.400 or you know, spiraling thoughts. You're not You're not you 1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:10.720 can't you can't. If you can't function, you can't function. So, um, 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:12.360 I do feel like I'm on the other side of that, 1:05:12.440 --> 1:05:18.360 I hope. What exactly is the technique? Uh, well, it's 1:05:18.600 --> 1:05:21.040 as much as anything, it's like a shift in my 1:05:22.160 --> 1:05:27.440 approach to my life, which is expressed very much on 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:30.560 this new album. But so it's the sense that the 1:05:30.600 --> 1:05:37.000 scope of your control is actually incredibly small, and that 1:05:37.960 --> 1:05:42.640 reckoning with that is the first step to a really 1:05:42.680 --> 1:05:49.000 fulfilled and beautiful life. At whereas you know, feeling this 1:05:49.120 --> 1:05:52.520 sense of the vast realm of all you can control, 1:05:52.760 --> 1:05:57.320 it's everything. What you can control is so minute that 1:05:57.320 --> 1:06:00.440 that's the place to be in the seat, with your 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:03.560 hands on the wheel, prepared to make decisions as you 1:06:03.600 --> 1:06:09.080 need to make them, but with very limited powers. Um. 1:06:09.120 --> 1:06:13.240 And there was actually a book that I've found incredibly helpful, 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:15.280 even though it's sort of coming at it from another angle, 1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:21.040 but Oliver Berkman four thousand Weeks Time Management for Mortals, 1:06:22.120 --> 1:06:24.439 because his you know, his whole thing is that's how 1:06:24.480 --> 1:06:27.600 long a life is. It's four thousand weeks. And some 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:31.040 people might find that depressing or like, don't tell me that, 1:06:31.080 --> 1:06:33.120 I don't want to, you know, to me. That's totally 1:06:33.160 --> 1:06:37.640 consistent with this philosophy I've adopted of what can I 1:06:37.720 --> 1:06:41.960 actually do? It's so much and it is so little. 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:46.800 So that's sort of a the gist of it. So 1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:50.040 the first record comes out, there's some action to what 1:06:50.240 --> 1:06:53.160 degree do you play live at that time and how 1:06:53.200 --> 1:06:57.520 does that turn into the second record? We constantly toured 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:00.680 from that point on. UM. We had an early break 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:04.400 which was somehow actually I think it was a friend 1:07:04.400 --> 1:07:08.160 in Toronto who's an actor, played a song for someone. 1:07:08.200 --> 1:07:12.600 But olivier Is says the French director had a film 1:07:12.600 --> 1:07:16.840 called Clean starring Maggie chung Um and he needed a 1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:20.200 band to play a scene at the beginning of the film, 1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:22.960 have and have the song in the movie and play 1:07:23.000 --> 1:07:26.280 a scene. And he'd worked with Sonic Youth previously, who 1:07:26.320 --> 1:07:32.360 we absolutely admired and continue to admire Um, and they 1:07:32.480 --> 1:07:36.920 loved Dead Disco and cast us in this movie like 1:07:36.960 --> 1:07:39.520 we have lines. It's very entertaining to watch, At least 1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:42.720 to me, the movie starts with us, you know, talking, 1:07:42.840 --> 1:07:45.320 We played the song Dead Disco and then as a result, 1:07:45.720 --> 1:07:49.920 very early we had this like beautiful moment of feeling 1:07:50.120 --> 1:07:55.000 very famous in Paris around that time and that was great. 1:07:55.480 --> 1:08:00.280 Like we went, we were it was such interesting people. Uh. Um. 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:02.600 We were at the very beginning, we didn't have any clothes, 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:05.200 like you know, Agnes b gave us closed. It was 1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:07.520 people gave us stuff because it was like Jesus, you know, 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:09.640 what are you wearing? We were like, I have no 1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:12.400 idea even what to wear. Um. I think around that 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:15.000 time I had one stage outfit that I just washed 1:08:15.000 --> 1:08:19.080 in a sink and bore every night. Um. So that 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:23.280 was a really amazing moment. And we just continued to 1:08:23.360 --> 1:08:27.480 develop the live show, which I think was getting better. Um. 1:08:27.520 --> 1:08:31.720 And we did uh you know some interesting stuff in 1:08:31.880 --> 1:08:34.360 l A where it was like a little more stylized, 1:08:34.400 --> 1:08:38.360 a little more styl ish, a little more fashion, you know, 1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:44.000 Nylons paying attention, stuff like that. Um. And we the 1:08:44.479 --> 1:08:48.439 pivot point I think that brought a heavier sound into 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:53.599 our consciousness. Sort of out of necessity was um, we 1:08:53.600 --> 1:08:58.519 were playing this John Kerry benefit in Miami, which will 1:08:58.520 --> 1:09:02.200 tell you the rough time line. Um. And it was 1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:06.200 super swish and we're staying at the standard and everyone's 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:09.960 stylish and you know bart bar, table service, all that 1:09:09.960 --> 1:09:11.920 stuff that we was new to us at that time, 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:14.920 and we had that show and then we were starting 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:18.880 this Canadian tour with this band called Billy Talent UM 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:21.160 and the first band we were we were the main band. 1:09:21.160 --> 1:09:23.880 The first band was UM, this band called Death from 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:28.559 Above and we were like, great, We're just continuing touring. 1:09:28.600 --> 1:09:31.040 It's going to be great. We fly from Miami to 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:36.439 like of as I recall, like a smallish town in 1:09:36.560 --> 1:09:41.240 quebec Um and the province of quebec Is has its 1:09:41.280 --> 1:09:45.439 own you know, identity as a result of the French language. Obviously, 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:50.280 UM so feeling really out there and very high contrast 1:09:50.360 --> 1:09:52.600 to the kind of shoulders we were rubbing with, like 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:59.639 hard rock, cold tough people. Not the band Billy Talent 1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:03.040 and not the band Death from Above nine, but the 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:08.360 human beings who were assembled. We're very tough. And we 1:10:08.520 --> 1:10:16.080 then proceeded to get bottled and heckled two almost to death. 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:20.920 UM to the point that Ben Um on that whole 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:23.120 tour event as a singer and Billy Talent, he would 1:10:23.320 --> 1:10:28.120 come out and say, you guys, you gotta you gotta 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:31.840 go easy, you gotta go easy on Metric, Like you know, 1:10:32.080 --> 1:10:35.400 Metric fans are getting beat up in the audience, but 1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:37.800 I remember I had this like so indie, you know, 1:10:37.880 --> 1:10:40.840 like masking tape. I need masking tape to write like 1:10:41.000 --> 1:10:43.640 love on my sweater, you know, like that kind of 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:46.880 stuff like you're cut off, socks are your wrist, things 1:10:46.920 --> 1:10:51.080 like it's so indie and so like not in the 1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:54.760 real world, you know, so like art star And I 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:57.040 remember being on stage and one of those shows and 1:10:57.120 --> 1:11:00.960 just seeing the like masking tape peeling off of me, 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:05.280 like there, this is terrible. The women were the worst, 1:11:05.400 --> 1:11:09.000 which was heartbreaking. I was like bawling on stage and 1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:14.800 they're calling me every worst word, and we just powered 1:11:14.880 --> 1:11:18.840 through and it was the best experience you could ever 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:21.200 have as a band, at least for us. We were 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:27.479 like nuh and they were right. We were not good enough, 1:11:28.120 --> 1:11:30.559 and even though they were just being loyal to Billy Talent, 1:11:30.640 --> 1:11:34.639 but we learned at that point they're the energy from 1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:37.559 the stage will always be more than the energy from 1:11:37.600 --> 1:11:40.280 the crowd. It doesn't matter how big the crowd. That 1:11:40.760 --> 1:11:44.280 we reversed it um and then we made we came 1:11:44.320 --> 1:11:46.200 off that tour and then we made the album Live 1:11:46.240 --> 1:11:49.800 It Out, which is just blistering like rock rous, you know, 1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:52.760 because we needed the armor and that was the other 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:54.479 kind of concept that came out of that was like 1:11:54.920 --> 1:11:58.519 songs as Armor UM, which I still use because it's 1:11:58.560 --> 1:12:08.320 like I'm going to need that, you know, to cope now. 1:12:08.400 --> 1:12:11.240 That record, you know, end up having a lot of success, 1:12:11.280 --> 1:12:16.440 certainly in Canada. So you know, one of the parallel 1:12:16.520 --> 1:12:20.800 stories in metrics careers. It's always been independent, but at 1:12:20.920 --> 1:12:25.160 that time, were you independent by choice or independent because 1:12:25.200 --> 1:12:27.960 none of the big people wanted to invest in you? Well, 1:12:28.000 --> 1:12:30.280 we it's and in fact, that was when we were 1:12:30.320 --> 1:12:34.479 with um Last Gang, so you know, and we in 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:37.920 those early days is like the license with UM Ever Loving, 1:12:38.160 --> 1:12:42.639 which was you know, uh, Mike Andrews and Anti Factor 1:12:43.439 --> 1:12:46.519 and the um Last Gang. I mean Chris Taylor, that 1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:49.599 was amazing. He started this label basically to put out 1:12:49.680 --> 1:12:53.920 metric Um because yeah, we you know, the combination of 1:12:53.960 --> 1:12:57.559 shared disdain I think of for me, I just these 1:12:57.600 --> 1:12:59.680 guys in the music industry. I was like no, and 1:12:59.720 --> 1:13:03.559 I think it's better now. But you know, they being 1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:05.639 told like, yeah, you could be the next Macy Gray 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:08.320 or whatever. I'm just like, this is this is never 1:13:08.360 --> 1:13:12.439 gonna work, um, but what but if we do it ourselves, 1:13:12.520 --> 1:13:15.240 it's going to work and we had that confidence, but 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:18.559 we definitely had help. I mean Chris Taylor put out 1:13:18.600 --> 1:13:20.639 that record, he helped us get I think he played 1:13:20.720 --> 1:13:24.200 us for ben Um of Billy Talent and Death from 1:13:24.240 --> 1:13:26.679 Above was also on his label. That was the first 1:13:26.720 --> 1:13:28.639 time we were in a tour bus was with those guys, 1:13:29.320 --> 1:13:33.160 So you know, it was it was a short lived 1:13:33.760 --> 1:13:38.439 connection and we also always contractually protected our independence. But um, 1:13:38.479 --> 1:13:40.679 at that time, I didn't feel any sense of like, 1:13:41.520 --> 1:13:43.760 oh I wish I was on a major label or anything. 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:45.920 I think I think we really let that go after 1:13:46.200 --> 1:13:52.120 England and to this date have major labels sniffed around. Yeah, 1:13:52.120 --> 1:13:54.559 like we had you know, it's a now it's actually 1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:56.880 kind of a mutual respect vibe. I feel like we've 1:13:56.920 --> 1:13:59.080 had great chats with Jimmy Ivan and Tom Wally and 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:01.840 all those guys are like, you know, it's always a 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:04.559 funny thing where I like, I think Jimmy Ivan I 1:14:04.600 --> 1:14:05.640 was like, you know, well, if you ever want to 1:14:05.640 --> 1:14:08.880 work in her scope, I was like totally. You know, um, 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:15.080 like around Fantasies, which was our most mainstream success, I suppose. Um, 1:14:15.160 --> 1:14:17.519 we went in and he wanted to meet with us, 1:14:17.560 --> 1:14:20.360 and you know, he's like thrown around like the Farrell 1:14:20.520 --> 1:14:23.400 remix idea, like you know, the stuff that you should do. 1:14:23.479 --> 1:14:25.600 But it's like, you know, I like no doubt as 1:14:25.640 --> 1:14:27.400 much as the next guy. We're not no doubt. We're 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:32.680 not a package heble entity like that. Um. And contractually 1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:34.800 it's like there is no amount of money the guy 1:14:34.880 --> 1:14:38.000 was going to give me, Like literally there is there was. 1:14:38.120 --> 1:14:39.800 There is no amount of money that would make it 1:14:39.840 --> 1:14:44.120 make sense. Um, which I know sounds extreme, but again 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:47.040 like kind of you know, the idea of a life philosophy. 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:49.840 If your life is like you're trying to you're trying 1:14:49.840 --> 1:14:52.080 to retire, Like if you're trying to like do it 1:14:52.160 --> 1:14:55.760 and then stop doing it, then you might want to 1:14:55.800 --> 1:14:59.040 just sell off anything you can sell off. But if 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:03.120 your goal is to own it and live it and 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:05.840 have your own life, it just doesn't make any sense. 1:15:05.840 --> 1:15:07.160 And they could see it and we could see it. 1:15:07.240 --> 1:15:10.600 So later in my career, I actually enjoyed those conversations 1:15:10.680 --> 1:15:13.680 because I can tell, I mean, they're trying their best, right, 1:15:13.680 --> 1:15:16.320 they're doing their thing, and um, I feel like they 1:15:16.360 --> 1:15:19.840 respect that I've done it my way, you know, but 1:15:19.960 --> 1:15:24.880 are you frustrated it all as much successes if you've 1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:27.840 had and the in roads you've made is part of 1:15:27.880 --> 1:15:29.960 you say hey, I want to be bigger and I 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:38.440 wish I had help well again like philosophy, right, um, 1:15:38.560 --> 1:15:40.680 we right now it's a it's an interesting time to 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:42.559 be chatting with you about this because right now we 1:15:42.600 --> 1:15:46.920 feel really happy with thirty Tigers, Like David Mass is 1:15:46.960 --> 1:15:50.280 obviously a mutual friend, like that's your new distributor label 1:15:50.320 --> 1:15:54.439 services company. That's right, and what he's doing and the 1:15:54.479 --> 1:15:57.080 way that they're doing it is kind of the thing 1:15:57.120 --> 1:15:59.559 I feel like we've always been looking for because we're 1:15:59.640 --> 1:16:02.680 team players, like we love you know, we've always put 1:16:02.720 --> 1:16:07.080 together our own ad hoc teams um and it's just 1:16:07.200 --> 1:16:10.120 always with the music industry the terms of these contracts 1:16:10.160 --> 1:16:13.680 where it's just so unpalatable to us and are the 1:16:13.680 --> 1:16:16.360 way that we run our business and make our work. 1:16:16.960 --> 1:16:19.160 So we'll have to see I'd love to like do 1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:21.479 a check in on this how it plays out with 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:24.879 thirty Tigers, because for this album so far, the setup 1:16:25.000 --> 1:16:27.759 and we just all comes crashing. Just got to number 1:16:27.760 --> 1:16:31.080 two in Canada, hopefully next week before the release we'll 1:16:31.080 --> 1:16:33.719 get to number one. The it feels like we got 1:16:33.800 --> 1:16:36.320 we got people, but they're not telling us what to do. 1:16:36.439 --> 1:16:39.960 They're telling their they're facilitating what we want to do, 1:16:40.120 --> 1:16:44.080 So you know, I the question of being bigger is like, 1:16:45.640 --> 1:16:47.559 it's it's funny to be right now, because I feel 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:52.320 like with the data obsession that we're all, it seems 1:16:52.360 --> 1:16:55.200 like it's a global addiction now in all in all ways, 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:59.760 everyone's just like tallying up everything, right, Like there's a 1:17:00.000 --> 1:17:02.479 talker mom who's tallying up how many likes she got 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:07.240 on like her cupcake photo. And you know, every artist 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:09.959 is tallying up how many streams they have on Spotify 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:12.280 and the other platforms. And it's like it's fun and 1:17:12.280 --> 1:17:14.200 it's addictive and it's all these things. But it's like, 1:17:14.920 --> 1:17:17.120 I really think we're in need of a reckoning of 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:21.280 like what are we actually tallying here? And it's cool, like, 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:25.880 but recognizing on Spotify, you're you're tallying how many times 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:28.160 your song has been listened to on Spotify. This is 1:17:28.160 --> 1:17:29.880 from someone who's added We've added a million and a 1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:32.479 half listeners in I think less than a year. So 1:17:32.600 --> 1:17:35.880 I'm super happy it's going great, But I'm not under 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:40.200 the illusion that that data is the tally of all 1:17:40.479 --> 1:17:43.840 things of value in my existence. You know, TikTok. We're 1:17:43.880 --> 1:17:46.120 into it. It's cool, We're like coming up with stuff 1:17:46.160 --> 1:17:47.960 to do. We're enjoying it. You know. I'd rather do 1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:50.840 that than go sit in some guy's office or try 1:17:50.880 --> 1:17:53.200 to please the head of a record company school. If 1:17:53.240 --> 1:17:55.760 I don't want to do it anymore, I won't do it. Um. 1:17:55.800 --> 1:17:58.599 But again, it's like this like sort of frothing at 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:03.040 the mouth, sorry, of like casino atmosphere around you know, 1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:08.040 success in these measurements that I guess I have chosen 1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:10.920 a different way of looking at success. How do you 1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:17.280 look at it? Well? Mental health, physical health, love, health 1:18:17.280 --> 1:18:20.599 of the band, quality of the work. So from from 1:18:20.600 --> 1:18:24.120 our perspective again, how can you evaluate quality in the world? 1:18:24.160 --> 1:18:27.400 As we know, lots of things are huge, lots of 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:31.000 things sucked, you know, chicken McNuggets, they're everywhere. I don't 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:34.120 I don't think anyone's under any illusion of a Michelin star. Right. 1:18:34.680 --> 1:18:38.519 So for me, for our values and what we want 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:41.639 to accomplish every day of my life is one step 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:43.920 closer to the artists that I want to be. The 1:18:43.960 --> 1:18:46.800 work on form and terra the band is playing better 1:18:46.800 --> 1:18:49.599 than we've ever played. We're doing what you know, to 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:53.160 the extent that anybody cares. I hope they do. Uh 1:18:53.240 --> 1:18:56.400 And from all you know measures that we're seeing, it 1:18:56.439 --> 1:19:00.519 seems like they do. But that's that means things are 1:19:00.560 --> 1:19:05.360 working out, you know, um, and there's like love in 1:19:05.400 --> 1:19:08.759 my life with my band and my and my family, 1:19:08.800 --> 1:19:13.520 and like it's not all being destroyed by this obsession, 1:19:14.479 --> 1:19:18.120 you know, this idea of like, you know, fame at 1:19:18.120 --> 1:19:21.479 all costs. I feel like the last standing like lover 1:19:21.600 --> 1:19:24.040 of privacy or something. When people just rattle off all 1:19:24.080 --> 1:19:26.479 these things about TikTok, it's like you want to be this, 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.040 you want to be that. It's like I don't know, maybe, 1:19:29.080 --> 1:19:32.040 like I get that somebody wants to be that, but 1:19:32.120 --> 1:19:34.880 not if you're someone who loves like being in the 1:19:34.920 --> 1:19:36.880 woods and going on a hike. Like, yeah, maybe you 1:19:36.920 --> 1:19:39.360 want to do some cool shot on tip talking, that's 1:19:39.360 --> 1:19:42.800 not your whole purpose, right, Like, not everyone wants to 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:47.960 be the most famous person ever. Okay, although I've yet 1:19:48.000 --> 1:19:51.000 to meet in artist who didn't want more people to 1:19:51.160 --> 1:19:55.400 listen to their music or be exposed to their work. Yeah, 1:19:55.439 --> 1:19:57.640 I mean that would be completely disingenuous to say like, 1:19:57.720 --> 1:20:00.479 of course you want people to hear it, but you know, 1:20:00.920 --> 1:20:03.840 I guess I just it's not about being nostalgic, But 1:20:03.880 --> 1:20:08.799 it's more about like reminding people that that feeling before 1:20:08.800 --> 1:20:11.240 we were all in this kind of colosseum of like 1:20:11.439 --> 1:20:16.479 data and living online where everyone's looking at everyone's everything. 1:20:16.880 --> 1:20:21.120 Like you could be a really cool band and you 1:20:21.120 --> 1:20:25.519 don't have to be like constantly reminded that someone's playing 1:20:25.560 --> 1:20:27.680 an arena. It doesn't matter. Sometimes you want to go 1:20:27.720 --> 1:20:30.639 to an arena it's really fun. Go see a huge band, 1:20:30.640 --> 1:20:33.639 it's great. Sometimes you want to see an art rock 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:36.320 band like Metric do something really cool in a theater 1:20:36.479 --> 1:20:40.200 like that. That's that's more the spirit of it. It's like, 1:20:40.439 --> 1:20:43.320 imagine if your favorite restaurant. You know, when you go 1:20:43.400 --> 1:20:45.840 to your favorite restaurant that you love and the chef 1:20:45.920 --> 1:20:47.320 is so good, and it's like hard to get a 1:20:47.360 --> 1:20:49.640 reso because it's so awesome. You don't go and have 1:20:49.720 --> 1:20:52.080 that meal and think this is amazing. But I wish 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:55.679 that they had like seventy five franchises. It just doesn't 1:20:55.720 --> 1:20:57.639 work like that, you know. So I think it's more 1:20:58.720 --> 1:21:01.120 my state of mind is like if it can grow 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:05.280 and be what it is. Those are the terms. You know, 1:21:05.560 --> 1:21:08.400 if it can if it can be that the mainstream 1:21:08.439 --> 1:21:11.360 comes to us, which has been the case to a 1:21:11.439 --> 1:21:14.680 large degree, then I'm down. We're We're totally cool to 1:21:15.640 --> 1:21:19.800 you know, everyone's welcome. But the singular quest of just 1:21:20.040 --> 1:21:22.600 more and more people and more and more numbers, that 1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:24.479 just doesn't sound like a good life or even a 1:21:24.520 --> 1:21:27.760 good party. Like I don't know, there's you want to 1:21:27.760 --> 1:21:31.280 be in an audience that knows why they're there. Um, 1:21:31.320 --> 1:21:34.360 And I'm sure like my whole team has a different 1:21:34.360 --> 1:21:37.120 agenda in terms of, yeah, let's just get as many 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.680 people as possible, But it's not really what drives me. Now, 1:21:40.720 --> 1:21:45.120 this is a business where you really can't predict the future. Um, 1:21:45.720 --> 1:21:49.640 being like yours has a certain number of fans. But 1:21:49.720 --> 1:21:52.160 in the back of your mind you're saying, well, you know, 1:21:52.240 --> 1:21:55.240 if we don't interact, to be, if we don't interact 1:21:55.240 --> 1:21:59.120 with our fans or they don't like our record, they 1:21:59.160 --> 1:22:01.760 may not buy our tickets and the whole thing could 1:22:01.800 --> 1:22:05.639 fall apart. Yeah, is that in the back of your mind, 1:22:05.720 --> 1:22:07.519 Or you say I'm gonna do what I want to do, 1:22:07.720 --> 1:22:13.720 the chips will fall where they may. I mean I 1:22:13.760 --> 1:22:16.840 gotta say it's the latter, Like we're you know, we're 1:22:16.920 --> 1:22:19.960 so hard working, we're so driven, we're down, we're like 1:22:20.000 --> 1:22:24.280 doing all this stuff. But if if there, if the 1:22:24.520 --> 1:22:27.040 arc is the arc, and it changes so far it's 1:22:27.120 --> 1:22:33.960 only grown consistently and beautifully blossomed throughout my life. And 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:37.679 if at some point it's like we fall off a cliff, 1:22:37.720 --> 1:22:40.840 then I guess we'll be like, well, that happened. But 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:43.400 you know, I guess this is sort of speaking to 1:22:43.439 --> 1:22:46.840 the anxiety piece too. I mean, it's just like if 1:22:46.840 --> 1:22:50.240 it all falls away, then I guess I'll do I'll 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:53.320 deal with that at the time. But in the meantime, 1:22:53.400 --> 1:22:57.160 it's like focusing on all the beautiful artwork, but obviously 1:22:57.280 --> 1:22:58.960 the music first, but then all you know, all the 1:22:58.960 --> 1:23:01.759 beautiful artwork, getting all these things, going, getting the stage 1:23:01.800 --> 1:23:04.160 and going taking care of all like being out there 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:05.920 on all the platforms do and all this stuff. It's 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:09.120 like a dance, right and like whatever is gonna happen 1:23:09.160 --> 1:23:12.800 is gonna happen. And knowing me and Jimmy, we will 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:17.080 one keep going. We own a beautiful studio, the band 1:23:17.160 --> 1:23:20.400 is great, and I just I feel like my role 1:23:20.479 --> 1:23:23.400 right now is to put a little bit of like 1:23:23.400 --> 1:23:26.879 like mellow confidence. And some people are just like guys, 1:23:27.800 --> 1:23:30.719 what you have might be pretty good, you know, including 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:33.800 in our audience. Like I feel like people feel so inadequate. 1:23:33.920 --> 1:23:37.400 It's like hellish. Everything you look at is somebody just 1:23:37.479 --> 1:23:40.200 having more of whatever you're supposed to have than you. 1:23:40.360 --> 1:23:43.639 It's like how how are people supposed to function? There's 1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:46.200 got to be a place of like, damn, this is 1:23:46.240 --> 1:23:49.479 actually pretty good, you know, like let's enjoy this. I 1:23:49.800 --> 1:23:52.519 feel like that's going to be my vibe on this cycle. 1:23:52.920 --> 1:23:55.080 I hope I can keep it up. Okay. You know, 1:23:55.160 --> 1:23:57.599 I grew up in the era where the Vietnam War 1:23:57.640 --> 1:24:00.639 and people went to Canada to avoid the draft, having 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:03.240 me into Canada's zillion times. Now, I would go to 1:24:03.280 --> 1:24:06.600 Canada in a minute. Canada's got a lot of advantages 1:24:06.640 --> 1:24:10.120 over the US, like a social safety net. But certainly 1:24:10.200 --> 1:24:12.360 when I grew up, you know, you could have a 1:24:12.400 --> 1:24:15.880 minimum wage job and pay all your bills. That is 1:24:15.920 --> 1:24:20.200 not the case now. So to what degree are you 1:24:20.320 --> 1:24:25.280 looking forward monetarially? Are you consciously saving money? Do you 1:24:25.360 --> 1:24:27.519 think about money at all? Do you think about money 1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:31.760 when you spend? How does that factor in. Yeah, I 1:24:31.760 --> 1:24:34.960 mean I think about money all the time. Like everyone else. 1:24:35.000 --> 1:24:37.559 We deal, you have to deal. Um, I run a company, 1:24:37.760 --> 1:24:41.120 so a lot of my consideration is recognizing that I 1:24:41.120 --> 1:24:43.080 need to keep everybody on salary and I need to 1:24:43.160 --> 1:24:47.040 keep you know, this studio running, and um, you know, 1:24:47.080 --> 1:24:49.679 I try not to focus too much on the fact 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:52.800 like when I'm writing where you're like, you know it 1:24:52.880 --> 1:24:56.679 really is. It is such an amazing and ridiculous craft 1:24:56.800 --> 1:25:01.120 and thing to dedicate your life to, like, you know, help, 1:25:01.160 --> 1:25:05.519 I'm alive, tremble, you know, those couple of chords and 1:25:05.560 --> 1:25:10.240 that thing. I mean, that's that's of you know, of 1:25:10.840 --> 1:25:13.559 a lot of equipment and various things. That's like the 1:25:13.640 --> 1:25:17.759 songs have paid for the life. The songs I write 1:25:17.760 --> 1:25:22.000 have paid for my life. So you know, we're pragmatic 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:24.280 in terms of our business. We have a whole team. 1:25:24.280 --> 1:25:27.439 We're like keeping this thing afloat um. But on a 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:31.960 personal level, like you know, I just feel like, you don't, 1:25:32.120 --> 1:25:34.840 you know, whatever the stupid kill the Golden goose, whatever, 1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:39.519 I don't. I just want to be capable of writing. 1:25:39.880 --> 1:25:43.120 And you know, I have a place in the woods 1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:45.600 which had already happened with covid where it was. I 1:25:45.720 --> 1:25:48.080 got it in case everything went to hell. It did, 1:25:48.600 --> 1:25:52.080 I went there. It was great. If if I have 1:25:52.200 --> 1:25:56.840 to shrink my life down, it will still be so 1:25:57.040 --> 1:26:01.000 such a rich life with you know, my own water 1:26:01.439 --> 1:26:05.479 and a piano on each floor. So that's kind of 1:26:05.479 --> 1:26:08.559 how I gauge the financial side. I'm I'm more into, like, 1:26:09.680 --> 1:26:13.920 you know, pouring money into making the metric shows great, 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:19.599 you know, continuing to sort of defy gravity in our 1:26:19.680 --> 1:26:24.599 weird way, then then being too worried. But um, professionally 1:26:24.640 --> 1:26:28.000 we're yeah, we're very We're practical. We're practical. How many 1:26:28.000 --> 1:26:31.800 people are on the payroll? Uh, well, the band's bent 1:26:31.840 --> 1:26:36.200 on salary for I mean over a decade um. And 1:26:36.240 --> 1:26:40.040 then we have all our services, Um, so you know, 1:26:40.280 --> 1:26:47.719 business manager, a couple of lawyers, accountant obviously, our manager, obviously, 1:26:47.760 --> 1:26:53.280 our agents. UM. I have a person that is essential 1:26:53.320 --> 1:26:55.840 to my health and happiness who I do all the 1:26:55.880 --> 1:26:58.920 social media stuff with. We have a great time together. Um, 1:26:59.040 --> 1:27:02.800 she's on side Lary. Um. We have a day to 1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:06.639 day person that we're like, nowhere will we go without him. 1:27:06.760 --> 1:27:08.519 We just switched a new management and we're like, this 1:27:08.560 --> 1:27:12.320 guy is coming with us. So he's on as well. Um, 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:15.400 then we have a day to day guy in in 1:27:15.439 --> 1:27:19.160 Toronto as well, so you know, ten or fifth something 1:27:19.160 --> 1:27:21.400 like that. I can't. I can't do math, you know that, Bob. 1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:24.360 But some people, how did you hook up with Matt 1:27:24.439 --> 1:27:30.280 Drulin and how did that end up helping your career? Um? 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:32.240 That was just I have a big grin when you 1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:35.120 say his name, because foot a legend and you know 1:27:35.880 --> 1:27:39.799 so great. Um, he that I can't. I don't remember 1:27:39.840 --> 1:27:42.720 how we met exactly, but the visual I have is 1:27:42.720 --> 1:27:44.880 when we when we had left New York in two 1:27:44.960 --> 1:27:49.880 thousand one. Um, God, these timelines are so crazy, but 1:27:49.920 --> 1:27:51.719 I guess it must have been that we still had 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:55.360 Jimmy still got to rent that place later, but all 1:27:55.360 --> 1:27:58.720 the way into like two thousand four. So around two 1:27:58.720 --> 1:28:03.400 thousand four, Um, we met him and we was this 1:28:03.439 --> 1:28:06.519 place was on above a bank, and so there was 1:28:06.560 --> 1:28:09.360 this huge safe and Matt just came in and sat 1:28:09.439 --> 1:28:13.200 cross legged on the safe and you know, proceeded to 1:28:13.240 --> 1:28:16.280 make us so much money over the next decade. It 1:28:16.360 --> 1:28:19.800 was always just such a classic image. But he is 1:28:19.840 --> 1:28:23.519 a He ran DKD for a while. His whole resume 1:28:23.640 --> 1:28:27.120 is pretty impressive. But he was always really interested in tech. 1:28:27.200 --> 1:28:31.439 He was always interested in being disruptive too. And you know, 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:34.519 not everyone loved this about his work in the music industry. 1:28:34.520 --> 1:28:38.479 He's now left the music industry, so he claims, um, 1:28:38.520 --> 1:28:42.200 but he was really you know, like me, just felt 1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:46.080 that there were inherent systemic flaws and just the boiler 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:49.800 plate contract that is presented as a premise for a 1:28:49.840 --> 1:28:52.200 career in music. He was just right there with me 1:28:52.240 --> 1:28:55.240 of like this is a bad business model and no 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:57.760 one should ever sign this. And he was like, I'm 1:28:57.760 --> 1:29:00.000 going to go over every single thing with a fine tooth, Coe, 1:29:00.320 --> 1:29:01.640 and we're going to figure out a way to do 1:29:01.720 --> 1:29:05.920 things differently. And thanks to him for Fantasies, which was 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:10.400 the album after Live It Out. Uh, we owned everything, 1:29:10.600 --> 1:29:14.719 put it out ourselves and that album performed the best. 1:29:14.760 --> 1:29:18.040 We did really well at radio in UM in the 1:29:18.160 --> 1:29:20.840 U s. Which is like unheard of. He's got all 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:23.240 the stats of like no one's ever done without a 1:29:23.320 --> 1:29:26.320 label or whatever. He loves like the sizzle, real vibe, 1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:31.800 um and we just we ended up having such incredible 1:29:32.200 --> 1:29:37.040 uh uh success in that period of time. And simultaneously 1:29:37.120 --> 1:29:40.240 the world was changing towards tech. He's was close friends 1:29:40.240 --> 1:29:42.880 and still is with Shawn Parker. So we got to 1:29:42.880 --> 1:29:47.080 have like, you know, an inside view, which is not 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:52.680 for the faint of heart. UM into tech bro existence 1:29:53.280 --> 1:29:56.760 and some friendships there, you know. He hilariously to me. 1:29:57.080 --> 1:30:02.080 We were playing UM probably around two as in eleven 1:30:02.240 --> 1:30:06.479 something like that. Uh, We're playing this thing in New 1:30:06.560 --> 1:30:09.720 York where inexplicably Patti Smith was opening for us. It 1:30:09.800 --> 1:30:14.639 was this thing at Milk Studios, and uh so it's 1:30:14.680 --> 1:30:18.559 just like already kind of a funny memory standing side 1:30:18.560 --> 1:30:20.120 stage with Patty is about to go out and she's 1:30:20.160 --> 1:30:22.000 just like, God, it sounds like hell out there, and 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:24.960 like it's gonna be okay. UM. And then and then 1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:30.080 Matt Brook brought Daniel Eck obviously he started Spotify backstage, 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:32.880 and he was like, guys, this Daniel Alex Spotify. You know, 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:34.519 she really meet him. We're like, what's that man? Nice 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:37.559 to meet you, you know, and we're not the We're 1:30:38.160 --> 1:30:40.599 Matt didn't like lead us. He wasn't like you gotta 1:30:40.680 --> 1:30:43.040 like kiss this guy's ass, or this is your future 1:30:43.120 --> 1:30:45.360 or anything like that. He just was in. He was 1:30:45.400 --> 1:30:48.840 aware that the world was going where it was going, 1:30:49.160 --> 1:30:53.519 and UM did his best to help us by making 1:30:53.520 --> 1:30:57.320 sure that we owned everything. And then well, you know, 1:30:57.320 --> 1:31:00.560 we parted ways totally amicably. UM right before the pandemic. 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:04.559 UM we got new management, and you know, it was 1:31:04.600 --> 1:31:09.600 a lot to take apart because he had the energy 1:31:09.640 --> 1:31:12.599 to be someone who would put together individual record deals 1:31:12.600 --> 1:31:15.920 in every territory, you know, so there's never a cohesive thing. 1:31:16.000 --> 1:31:18.959 He would just you know, out of Montreal like a lunatic. 1:31:19.040 --> 1:31:21.800 He'd like run this thing. So you know, now that 1:31:21.840 --> 1:31:26.400 we have more uh sane management, they're like, Okay, we're 1:31:26.439 --> 1:31:29.080 gonna we're gonna streamline this a bit. We're going to 1:31:29.520 --> 1:31:32.240 and luckily that's why thirty Tigers is now in the picture. 1:31:33.240 --> 1:31:35.040 But other than having to kind of get it straight, 1:31:35.120 --> 1:31:38.679 he was just like being handed our own the keys 1:31:38.720 --> 1:31:41.680 to our own existence because we own our material and 1:31:41.720 --> 1:31:45.200 now we can do all this cool stuff. And fascinatingly, 1:31:45.320 --> 1:31:48.439 Jimmy said, that didn't ultimately that was your one big 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:54.000 break that really ultimately didn't pay any dividend. UM. That 1:31:54.080 --> 1:31:56.519 was we were approached by Howard Shore, who I stayed 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:59.880 friends with. UM. We then did the Cronenberg film together 1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:04.120 after that, but yeah, they needed UM someone to do 1:32:04.160 --> 1:32:06.559 the theme song. He was obviously doing the score, so 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:10.800 we clicked. We went out to his place in Tuxedo Park, Um, 1:32:10.880 --> 1:32:13.400 which was really cool. Is like see like where he 1:32:13.439 --> 1:32:16.240 wrote all the Lord of the Ring stuff and the 1:32:16.280 --> 1:32:20.320 Hobbit hole and all this stuff. Um, and you know, 1:32:20.600 --> 1:32:23.519 fascinatingly to me, he took I didn't know it's going 1:32:23.560 --> 1:32:25.800 to work like this, but he took my melodies and 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:29.559 then wrote the The themes of the score were actually 1:32:29.600 --> 1:32:33.679 derived from that song, which was really cool. Um, Jimmy 1:32:33.720 --> 1:32:37.040 struck up a friendship with Pattinson and it was it 1:32:37.160 --> 1:32:40.320 was a great moment, you know, some hilarious red carpet moments. 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:43.080 But yeah, to Jimmy's point, I mean, like so many things, 1:32:44.000 --> 1:32:46.439 and I think it's it's actually to our benefit, but 1:32:46.479 --> 1:32:48.640 I guess we'll never know. It feels like it just 1:32:48.760 --> 1:32:52.479 added to the body of work, you know, and we 1:32:52.479 --> 1:32:54.479 would play, we know, did lots of Late Night with 1:32:54.600 --> 1:32:57.240 the piano and the string section doing that song. You know, 1:32:57.320 --> 1:32:59.920 but we were doing Late Night already, Like it kind 1:33:00.040 --> 1:33:03.160 of just was another thing that we did that kept 1:33:03.200 --> 1:33:06.320 it groovy and we kept on going. Um, but it 1:33:06.320 --> 1:33:09.559 it did seem in retrospect, It's true, it's like that 1:33:09.680 --> 1:33:11.519 seems like that should shoot you out of a cannon. 1:33:11.640 --> 1:33:13.920 But you know, the song is playing at the credits, 1:33:13.920 --> 1:33:23.040 everyone's walking out. What are you gonna do? Is there 1:33:23.080 --> 1:33:26.880 anything that's happened in your career that really did push 1:33:26.920 --> 1:33:29.960 everything forward sort of a changing moment, or has just 1:33:30.000 --> 1:33:35.320 been a slow evolution? I mean, I think it's unless 1:33:36.160 --> 1:33:39.280 it's I suppose we'd have to ask ourselves what how 1:33:39.320 --> 1:33:43.080 we're measuring that, because I'm sure if we look at 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:46.479 the data there's bumps, you know, we can see like 1:33:46.600 --> 1:33:49.439 that the video for Risk, you know, did so well 1:33:49.479 --> 1:33:53.280 on YouTube. I'm sure there's something similar like that that 1:33:53.360 --> 1:33:58.120 we could look at objectively. Um. But to me, the 1:33:58.200 --> 1:34:02.559 things that have meant the most have a negligible effect, 1:34:02.640 --> 1:34:06.000 you know, obviously like working with Lou, my friendship with Wilner, 1:34:06.640 --> 1:34:09.120 all all that stuff that is like the basis of 1:34:09.200 --> 1:34:13.720 my craft and you know, identity and sense of like, 1:34:14.400 --> 1:34:17.160 you know, now it's getting good. I have no idea 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:20.840 if that's served us in any sort of verifiable way. 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:26.160 So how did you meet Lou reed Um? That was 1:34:27.080 --> 1:34:32.040 through Haw Wilner, who, as as I recall, Kevin Drew 1:34:32.360 --> 1:34:36.880 and Brendan Canning from Broken social scene. My pals from 1:34:36.880 --> 1:34:40.559 here in Toronto. They were going to meet how about 1:34:40.600 --> 1:34:45.960 doing this Neil Young benefit in Vancouver, and they were 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:48.360 in New York and they went to Howe's studio, which 1:34:48.400 --> 1:34:52.160 is like a hilarious room full of his Like, sadly, 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:54.280 How's not with us anymore. I just got to put 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:56.599 that out there ahead of the how did the gate 1:34:56.680 --> 1:34:58.760 because I feel like he's still like one of the 1:34:58.960 --> 1:35:03.080 casualties of co bit unfortunate life. That's right, Um, I 1:35:03.120 --> 1:35:05.160 did really just feel like he was still alive. That 1:35:05.240 --> 1:35:12.320 was a very weird feeling. Okay, So Kevin Brendan, they 1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:14.559 go to meet will Nor to talk about this thing. 1:35:15.040 --> 1:35:16.720 And the first thing he does, you know, in this 1:35:16.840 --> 1:35:19.200 cramped room with his speakers and all his like puppets 1:35:19.200 --> 1:35:23.200 and all this crazy like collectibles, Will there's like, you 1:35:23.280 --> 1:35:25.960 gotta watch this film, and you know, they think they're 1:35:25.960 --> 1:35:27.479 just gonna have a chat with this guy, and he 1:35:27.600 --> 1:35:31.320 sits them down and makes them watch the Escalator over 1:35:31.320 --> 1:35:35.599 the Hill documentary, which is of course the making of 1:35:36.120 --> 1:35:39.120 Carla Blaze album that is my father's lyrics that he 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:43.160 was writing in New Delhi when they had me and 1:35:43.560 --> 1:35:46.760 Kevin is just like Okay, what's going on? Like that's 1:35:46.800 --> 1:35:49.840 my best friend from high school? Like she how is that? 1:35:50.400 --> 1:35:52.840 What's happening right now? How do you have this? Also, 1:35:52.880 --> 1:35:56.559 it's very rare, hard to find and will and there's like, 1:35:56.560 --> 1:35:59.559 oh no way, um, that's great. Well, you know Lou 1:35:59.600 --> 1:36:02.960 and I we we love Emily solo record. We play 1:36:02.960 --> 1:36:04.960 it on our radio show. They had the show on 1:36:05.080 --> 1:36:10.439 Serious um and they were best friends obviously, and so 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:14.120 Kevin was just like, this is too much. I gotta 1:36:14.360 --> 1:36:19.200 I gotta get him on this Vancouver show. Um. And 1:36:19.240 --> 1:36:21.439 it was a really busy time and he actually makes 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:24.599 fun of me because it was not easy, like I 1:36:24.640 --> 1:36:26.720 wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm so lucky. Like I 1:36:26.760 --> 1:36:29.760 was like, I don't know, like Vancouver, I don't know, 1:36:31.120 --> 1:36:32.840 maybe not like there's a lot going on. I'm living 1:36:32.880 --> 1:36:35.200 in New York. I'm like, I don't feel like getting 1:36:35.200 --> 1:36:40.759 on a plane. So he persuaded me, and thankfully because 1:36:40.800 --> 1:36:44.519 then you know, I meet Lou and the first thing 1:36:44.560 --> 1:36:46.960 he says to me is Emily, ay, and it would 1:36:46.960 --> 1:36:50.880 you rather be the Beatles or the Rolling Stoves? Isn't 1:36:50.880 --> 1:36:54.800 that the best? Which maybe your listeners don't know, is 1:36:54.800 --> 1:36:58.080 a line from our song Gimme Sympathy. But and you know, 1:36:58.160 --> 1:36:59.479 this is what I'm talking about when I say like 1:36:59.600 --> 1:37:02.240 we got get away from this data. There's no data 1:37:02.280 --> 1:37:05.360 collection for that. I can't. There's no spike in, you know, 1:37:05.720 --> 1:37:12.439 in the algorithm. It's like, that's the best thing ever period. 1:37:13.479 --> 1:37:16.320 Um struck up a friendship Lori's there as well as 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:22.040 she's amazing Um of course, and he then both of 1:37:22.040 --> 1:37:24.960 them invited me to perform at this amazing thing they 1:37:25.000 --> 1:37:29.520 did at UM Sydney Opera House. Uh they did a 1:37:29.520 --> 1:37:33.840 whole curated festival of music and oh, man, Bob, I 1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:37.240 feel like I'm gonna cry. He uh Blue and I 1:37:37.280 --> 1:37:49.880 did Perfect Day together and uh yeah, and then we 1:37:50.000 --> 1:37:54.840 just stayed friends. Like I did a hilarious um Shell 1:37:54.960 --> 1:37:58.719 Silverstein thing with him in Central Park. It's like another 1:37:58.760 --> 1:38:02.160 Willner production, you know, always like total Muppet show bringing 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:06.080 together all these people. And Um, I was lose straight man, 1:38:06.160 --> 1:38:09.320 like I'm playing piano and he's just like ripping into Bloomberg. 1:38:10.000 --> 1:38:17.320 It's the best. It's the best. And after he passed Um, 1:38:17.360 --> 1:38:19.280 you know, of course we did the song together as well, 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:23.160 you know, Electric Lady. He came in and sang on Wanderlust, 1:38:23.160 --> 1:38:29.200 which is on UM Synthetica. But uh, but after he passed, 1:38:29.280 --> 1:38:32.200 like you know, Wilner and I then stayed in touch too, 1:38:32.240 --> 1:38:36.120 and um, I came and did a tribute to lou 1:38:36.160 --> 1:38:39.400 in the City and then Will nor would would keep me, 1:38:39.720 --> 1:38:42.599 keep me in the loop on things like you know 1:38:42.760 --> 1:38:46.639 the amazing t Rex covers album, uh that I did 1:38:47.400 --> 1:38:52.160 with them Ballrooms Ballrooms of Mars was my song, this 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:54.240 crazy line up like Bono in the Edge and all 1:38:54.280 --> 1:38:59.479 these guys are on that record. And then, um, I 1:38:59.479 --> 1:39:01.400 feel like I'm us now telling the story of the 1:39:01.439 --> 1:39:03.479 death of these two best friends and it's making me 1:39:03.560 --> 1:39:09.680 really sad. But then you know, Sheila managed to you know, 1:39:10.560 --> 1:39:14.040 a year after we lost I guess two years after 1:39:14.040 --> 1:39:16.519 we lost well there did the memorial in New York 1:39:16.600 --> 1:39:20.880 and Kevin and I played, um, only Love Will Break 1:39:20.880 --> 1:39:26.479 Your Heart and got to meet Bono in the Edge 1:39:27.360 --> 1:39:30.559 and how I have a really ridiculous picture of as 1:39:30.640 --> 1:39:32.760 you know, we're walking in for sound check and there's 1:39:32.840 --> 1:39:36.760 everybody's names with their COVID tests and it's like Kevin Drew, 1:39:36.840 --> 1:39:41.080 Emily Haynes, like the Edge, Tom Waits, Bono, It's like 1:39:41.280 --> 1:39:48.880 again immeasurable absurdest photography. Um that is I don't even 1:39:48.920 --> 1:39:50.479 know if you can call that a high point, but 1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:56.200 it's a something of the wildness of life, but legendary 1:39:56.280 --> 1:39:59.760 humans that I got to cross paths with. So now 1:39:59.800 --> 1:40:01.360 what am I going to do? Now am I going 1:40:01.400 --> 1:40:04.160 to meet? Oh? There's always something. It's just like, you know, 1:40:04.200 --> 1:40:07.479 remember being in the Rose Bowl seeing the stones, and 1:40:07.520 --> 1:40:10.400 I have at all access past the rolling stones, so well, 1:40:10.400 --> 1:40:13.599 you know, doesn't get any better than that walking on 1:40:13.640 --> 1:40:17.639 the stage. But you're a woman in a man's world. 1:40:18.840 --> 1:40:24.040 So what's that been like? Uh? Well, I think I 1:40:24.120 --> 1:40:27.840 learned from Carla Blay by example, which again was a 1:40:27.840 --> 1:40:29.600 little bit like finding out later that we didn't have 1:40:29.600 --> 1:40:32.760 any money because I didn't understand that. Um, as I 1:40:32.800 --> 1:40:35.920 grew up thinking like that's just what you do. Is 1:40:35.960 --> 1:40:39.240 what she did, which was you know, start j C 1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:44.599 o A records, right, all of this insane music, um, 1:40:44.680 --> 1:40:48.080 all these arrangements which I can still recognize her arrangements 1:40:48.080 --> 1:40:52.080 and in fact that Wilner's memorial they played ah an 1:40:52.160 --> 1:40:56.599 arrangement of hers, which was stunning. Um, you know, wrote 1:40:56.600 --> 1:41:01.080 our own arrangements, um, saying this stuff and pulled together, 1:41:01.400 --> 1:41:04.559 you know, Jack Bruce from Cream, you know, with Paul 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:09.800 Haynes from Paul Haynes Um, and I just, you know, 1:41:10.120 --> 1:41:14.240 always felt like everything she did was unrelated her. She was, 1:41:14.320 --> 1:41:18.559 of course she's a woman cool, but she always resisted 1:41:18.640 --> 1:41:22.519 being on the like women in jazz collections, and you 1:41:22.560 --> 1:41:27.080 know that's sort of pink ghetto thing that can happen 1:41:27.120 --> 1:41:30.680 of Like, you know, I just always saw like I 1:41:30.680 --> 1:41:33.760 want to play on the regulation field, right, So I'm 1:41:33.840 --> 1:41:36.320 I'm a woman in a male dominated industry, so I'll 1:41:36.320 --> 1:41:38.960 be a woman on that regulation field doing what I 1:41:39.000 --> 1:41:41.200 can do. I haven't done well with the idea I 1:41:41.280 --> 1:41:44.000 was supposed to go to this other category and have 1:41:44.160 --> 1:41:47.559 everything be like a disclaimer or a caveat of like 1:41:47.920 --> 1:41:50.920 female friends at or like you know, And I think 1:41:51.000 --> 1:41:54.040 some people lean into that because they there is a 1:41:54.080 --> 1:41:58.320 way I guess that you can maybe garner attention in 1:41:58.360 --> 1:42:01.080 a way that serves you and works for you, which 1:42:01.120 --> 1:42:04.680 I totally respect and get. But for me, I've just 1:42:04.680 --> 1:42:06.840 always been like, what now, can we just can you 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:10.040 just talk to me about like my phrasing on you know, 1:42:10.200 --> 1:42:12.599 the third line of the second first of track eight 1:42:12.640 --> 1:42:15.200 of my sixth album, You know, I don't. I don't 1:42:15.240 --> 1:42:18.920 really have like an agenda as a woman other than 1:42:18.960 --> 1:42:22.040 I hope that girls who come to my shows go like, 1:42:22.200 --> 1:42:24.200 I'm going to do whatever the hell I want. That's 1:42:24.240 --> 1:42:29.240 basically my message. But okay, that's on your side. You're 1:42:29.240 --> 1:42:33.040 an attractive woman. Fronts of band has a certain amount 1:42:33.080 --> 1:42:38.960 of fame. The truth is many men are attracted to that, 1:42:39.520 --> 1:42:42.400 both people in the audience and people who were famous 1:42:42.439 --> 1:42:46.479 amongst the entire population. So to what degree when someone 1:42:46.560 --> 1:42:49.400 comes up to talk to you I'm talking about in 1:42:49.439 --> 1:42:52.600 an insider setting as opposed to just being out with 1:42:52.640 --> 1:42:55.160 the public, you say, in your back of mind, are 1:42:55.200 --> 1:42:57.280 they really want to talk to me for what I think? 1:42:58.240 --> 1:43:03.360 Or are they thinking about me sexually? I mean, that's 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:06.040 just a human question that has nothing to do with 1:43:06.240 --> 1:43:08.240 what I do for a living. I think that's just 1:43:08.360 --> 1:43:13.600 like and I'm sure there's a male equivalent. So I 1:43:13.600 --> 1:43:16.360 don't know if I'm sure there's a male equivalent in 1:43:16.640 --> 1:43:19.920 maybe in the fashion makeup world it could be. But 1:43:21.280 --> 1:43:24.080 if you are there, you're one of the few women 1:43:24.360 --> 1:43:28.639 amongst many men. So it's a little bit different from 1:43:28.640 --> 1:43:32.840 society at large, where it's kind of fifty fifty. Well, 1:43:32.920 --> 1:43:36.160 to be fair, Jimmy did say to me what she's like, 1:43:36.240 --> 1:43:39.439 you know, the problem with you is, you know, you 1:43:39.479 --> 1:43:42.639 don't realize that when you stay at the bar after 1:43:42.720 --> 1:43:46.000 closing till three am, you're the only one who's there 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:51.720 to collaborate. I was like, oh, oh, okay, right, So 1:43:51.760 --> 1:43:53.400 I think I am a bit like out of it 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:56.080 when it comes to that, But which also works. I mean, 1:43:56.880 --> 1:44:00.320 I I like the approach of just ignoring big tree 1:44:00.880 --> 1:44:05.599 and you know, adulation in equal measure, you know, just 1:44:05.640 --> 1:44:07.240 ignore it all. Be like, I have no idea you're 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:11.120 talking about. So anyway, this is this new guitar. Okay. 1:44:11.280 --> 1:44:15.360 You know the reality is, and I have personal experience 1:44:15.439 --> 1:44:20.439 with this. When a woman is extremely attractive, certainly there 1:44:20.439 --> 1:44:28.320 are men who uh observe boundaries. But there are men 1:44:28.520 --> 1:44:31.559 that might say at three in the morning, oh that's good, okay, 1:44:31.560 --> 1:44:34.240 cleavercia tomorrow morning. And there are other men who might say, hey, 1:44:34.280 --> 1:44:38.040 you know, let's go up to my room now. And 1:44:38.560 --> 1:44:40.840 you know, I wish him well because I'm going to 1:44:40.920 --> 1:44:45.439 be like, sorry, what now, let me rephrase the question. 1:44:46.520 --> 1:44:49.360 Have you been in any bad experiences as a result 1:44:49.400 --> 1:44:53.920 of being a man a woman in a man's world, yes, 1:44:54.600 --> 1:45:00.240 and how do you eat? How do you handle them? 1:45:00.280 --> 1:45:03.800 So sadly, And I've spoken a lot of my friends 1:45:03.840 --> 1:45:06.280 about this, and I think this is a generational shift 1:45:06.320 --> 1:45:13.000 that is happening. Um. But I have been of the 1:45:13.080 --> 1:45:19.200 school kind of the logical next progression from my attitude 1:45:19.200 --> 1:45:24.599 of like, I'm going to pretend that I didn't see 1:45:24.640 --> 1:45:27.120 you looking at me that way, or treating me that way, 1:45:27.360 --> 1:45:31.360 treating me lesser or um as a result of some 1:45:31.479 --> 1:45:35.920 perception that you have about my gender. I've similarly been 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:43.639 very quick to dismiss and minimize and move on from 1:45:43.680 --> 1:45:47.880 all the things that have happened. And it's a choice. 1:45:48.720 --> 1:45:50.240 I didn't really think of it as a choice. And 1:45:50.280 --> 1:45:53.120 I think probably other women that you've spoken to, um 1:45:53.160 --> 1:45:55.360 my age are older, we'll we'll tell you the same thing. 1:45:56.080 --> 1:46:00.760 There's no mechanism for really anything else. It felt at 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:04.200 the time, and certainly at this point in my life, 1:46:04.920 --> 1:46:13.360 I feel resilience and I've overcome everything. So having said that, 1:46:13.720 --> 1:46:20.360 I'm very supportive of this next generation of girls who 1:46:21.200 --> 1:46:23.639 they I mean, things that we don't think would even 1:46:23.680 --> 1:46:27.679 register with me. They're flagging, and good on them because 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:30.520 if they have, they have the energy, they have, the 1:46:30.520 --> 1:46:35.200 they have, the social language, and you know a sense 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:38.880 of understanding. UM that they can address those things. So 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:41.920 I think I think if they they should. UM. But 1:46:42.080 --> 1:46:45.800 for me, I've just been like, can we please talk 1:46:45.880 --> 1:46:50.000 about my music now instead? Oh, I just want to 1:46:50.000 --> 1:46:53.080 clarify when I talk about being on the having experienced 1:46:53.080 --> 1:46:55.400 with this is with a woman I was involved with, 1:46:55.680 --> 1:46:58.559 not that I was bad behavior, just men approaching her. 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:03.200 But in any event, you know, this is also a 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:07.240 dicey area. But the reality of biologically women have a 1:47:07.320 --> 1:47:11.840 limited amount of time to have children all certainly they 1:47:11.840 --> 1:47:15.120 can adopt, they can freeze their legs. Do you feel 1:47:15.240 --> 1:47:18.559 you sacrifice to my knowledge, you don't have any children, 1:47:18.600 --> 1:47:22.120 you're not married. Is the music more important or did 1:47:22.160 --> 1:47:25.840 you say I want that but I can't have it. 1:47:25.960 --> 1:47:30.920 Where do you sit on that? Um? That probably is 1:47:30.960 --> 1:47:34.559 the only question so far that sits on my Michael 1:47:34.600 --> 1:47:38.760 Andrew's scale of selling my personal life. UM, which is 1:47:39.120 --> 1:47:42.799 me saying in a hopefully charming way that I'm probably 1:47:42.840 --> 1:47:45.800 not really going to answer that. UM. I would just 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:48.960 say I was married, and I did try to have 1:47:49.000 --> 1:47:52.920 a family, and I am not married and I do 1:47:53.040 --> 1:47:59.960 not have a family. And leave it probably at that. Okay, 1:48:00.400 --> 1:48:03.200 let's move on to today. The album is called Forming Terra. 1:48:03.360 --> 1:48:05.720 For those who've been to Abisa know that form and 1:48:05.880 --> 1:48:12.800 Terra is across the water. And uh so why is 1:48:12.840 --> 1:48:17.519 this album called Formintara? So it's funny even though we're 1:48:17.560 --> 1:48:19.720 so early in this album campaign, I already have that 1:48:19.720 --> 1:48:22.120 little cringe, which you gotta do it right, Like I'm 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:24.400 we're promoting the album, but where you hear yourself about 1:48:24.439 --> 1:48:27.200 to say something you've said before. But it's cool. I 1:48:27.360 --> 1:48:30.599 just I feel the need to preface that, like it's funny. 1:48:30.600 --> 1:48:32.680 I'm just looking at it right now, this book in 1:48:32.720 --> 1:48:39.440 the studio. Okay, So here it is, Uh, we're deep pandemic. 1:48:40.400 --> 1:48:43.479 And not only are we deep pandemic, we are in 1:48:44.240 --> 1:48:50.360 a frozen tundra in a rural hamlet and the doom 1:48:50.400 --> 1:48:54.880 scrolling is completely out of hand and what is on 1:48:54.920 --> 1:48:57.800 the other side of that phone is really dire and disturbing. 1:48:58.520 --> 1:49:05.120 Friends are dying, um our industry is completely gutted, and 1:49:05.960 --> 1:49:12.280 predictions for worse are coming in daily. Uh. We're in 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:15.439 the studio and we were like, we need We're gonna 1:49:15.439 --> 1:49:20.000 need something here because everyone's we're not well and we 1:49:20.120 --> 1:49:22.320 got the idea to open this book that it's one 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:24.600 of those like a thousand Places to Go before you 1:49:24.680 --> 1:49:28.800 Die book, like dream destination books. They're like, okay, maybe 1:49:28.840 --> 1:49:32.240 we opened this to a page, well, like it'll transport 1:49:32.280 --> 1:49:34.400 us will get inspired, and we'll just that that's going 1:49:34.439 --> 1:49:38.040 to make give this day a sense of shape. And 1:49:38.320 --> 1:49:42.519 we opened the book and it's for me, arra. And 1:49:43.040 --> 1:49:45.200 originally we thought maybe we'd do a different page every 1:49:45.280 --> 1:49:47.760 day or something, and it just never left that page. 1:49:48.439 --> 1:49:54.080 And that day we wrote that song. And I'm not 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:57.160 trying to be dramatic, I just I can't. I don't 1:49:57.240 --> 1:50:01.040 really remember the way that it happened. It really did 1:50:01.160 --> 1:50:05.400 feel like Jimmy played something, and I went to the 1:50:05.439 --> 1:50:10.439 piano and played something, and then there was something. And 1:50:10.560 --> 1:50:14.720 then for the weeks that followed, I just spent all 1:50:14.800 --> 1:50:16.600 this time like when I was walking, when I was 1:50:16.640 --> 1:50:18.599 in the bath, when I which was basically the two 1:50:18.680 --> 1:50:22.360 things that I was doing. Um, I I would just 1:50:22.400 --> 1:50:27.880 be kind of tweaking this melody and these words that 1:50:27.960 --> 1:50:32.400 were essentially what got me to what we were discussing earlier, 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:36.720 of like coming to this conclusion of letting go of 1:50:36.800 --> 1:50:41.800 the being unsustainable the level of anxiety that I was 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:47.640 trying to contain in my small frame. So the song is, 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:52.080 you know, why not just let go? You can't take 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:56.360 a sober stroll and free my childhood dream. I'm done. 1:50:56.920 --> 1:51:03.360 I can't. I can't carry all this UM. So then 1:51:03.560 --> 1:51:06.519 that was we're you know, we're very harsh on our work. 1:51:07.000 --> 1:51:10.879 I love it, We're harsh editors. We had other material, 1:51:11.439 --> 1:51:15.880 we're working away. That song was done and we're progressing, 1:51:15.880 --> 1:51:18.160 we're continuing, and there was it was not front of 1:51:18.200 --> 1:51:22.800 mine UM for quite some time. And then as we 1:51:22.800 --> 1:51:25.360 were coming to the kind of end of the process, 1:51:25.439 --> 1:51:28.040 we realized it was time to sort of reckon with 1:51:28.080 --> 1:51:32.479 all these different tunes. And sure enough it was so weird, 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:37.600 but like independently, everyone had this like epiphany that not 1:51:37.680 --> 1:51:40.559 only was that the heart of the record, it was 1:51:40.600 --> 1:51:47.840 definitely the title. And Jimmy then being him, was like, 1:51:48.200 --> 1:51:51.919 I know what we need to do. We need an orchestra. 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:55.840 We need to arrive via orchestra and have it carry 1:51:55.920 --> 1:52:00.120 us through into the next track, which is Enemies of 1:52:00.160 --> 1:52:03.519 the Ocean. And you know, he says stuff like this, 1:52:03.600 --> 1:52:06.400 I'm like okay, Like I don't know, calls up Tote 1:52:06.439 --> 1:52:08.920 or Kobakov, who have we worked with before, our Bulgarian 1:52:09.080 --> 1:52:13.519 composer friend. He writes this piece, it's perfect. Get the 1:52:13.560 --> 1:52:20.000 Bulgarian art Orchestra uh up and running, and we record 1:52:20.080 --> 1:52:24.240 it by live cast and it becomes the heart of 1:52:24.240 --> 1:52:27.040 the record. And then you know, going into artwork meetings 1:52:27.479 --> 1:52:29.960 and the artwork guy comes bursting in the door and 1:52:29.960 --> 1:52:31.439 it's like, I know what the album is called, and 1:52:31.479 --> 1:52:33.559 I know what the song. It's like, it's called formIn Tera, 1:52:33.640 --> 1:52:36.160 and this is the thing. And I'm just like, Okay, 1:52:36.200 --> 1:52:41.280 this is happening by consensus, um, but like psychic consensus. 1:52:42.439 --> 1:52:44.519 So have you been to formIn Tera? And do you 1:52:44.560 --> 1:52:48.200 want to go to form? I have? I have, and 1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:51.160 it's and I and I actually it's funny because now 1:52:51.439 --> 1:52:54.880 things are open, right, and it's taken on so much 1:52:54.960 --> 1:52:58.200 significance um and yeah, and we're still at the beginning 1:52:58.240 --> 1:53:00.840 of the campaign. So I'm like, oh, man, I think 1:53:01.000 --> 1:53:04.720 I can't go now. Like I think that's too it's 1:53:04.760 --> 1:53:08.040 too literal. I mean, I need to experience it as 1:53:08.120 --> 1:53:11.120 this figurative escape, you know. It's like a poor man's 1:53:11.200 --> 1:53:13.960 vacation was our whole idea, Like none of us can 1:53:14.000 --> 1:53:17.439 go anywhere, you know, and at the best of times, 1:53:17.439 --> 1:53:19.200 I don't know how many of us are yachting to 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:21.840 form in terra. But at one point in my life 1:53:21.880 --> 1:53:25.439 I was um, and so I was just really torn, 1:53:25.520 --> 1:53:27.720 like what do I do? Because I'm kind of like, man, 1:53:27.760 --> 1:53:30.080 I wouldn't mind going. We got this promo trip, so 1:53:30.200 --> 1:53:33.080 we're going to London and Paris Berlin for work. I'm like, 1:53:33.080 --> 1:53:36.280 maybe I should just go, but I think I've decided, 1:53:37.160 --> 1:53:43.120 you know, another lockdown. Notwithstanding that I at the end 1:53:44.000 --> 1:53:45.799 would be really nice to just go with the band. 1:53:46.840 --> 1:53:49.280 You know, maybe by that point the tourism board will 1:53:49.320 --> 1:53:53.000 really appreciate our work. Actually, I was going to ask 1:53:53.040 --> 1:53:56.679 you with this, did you ever see the Um Pink 1:53:56.680 --> 1:54:03.880 Floyd movie? More? No? So, so they made a film 1:54:04.000 --> 1:54:06.880 and and spend all this time obsessed with Pink Floyd 1:54:07.800 --> 1:54:11.479 best music. They made a film and spent all this 1:54:11.600 --> 1:54:15.000 time on for Mentara, and people mistook it to be 1:54:15.040 --> 1:54:18.200 a visa. And then I had like the craziest connection 1:54:18.200 --> 1:54:21.760 of things where I discovered that that the windmill on 1:54:21.800 --> 1:54:24.960 the cover of that it's like a concert movie. I 1:54:24.960 --> 1:54:28.200 suppose h is forming Tara. And then I found the 1:54:28.240 --> 1:54:32.040 club Club to Peak is there where they played this 1:54:32.120 --> 1:54:34.600 concert in the seventies. I was like, oh man, this 1:54:34.680 --> 1:54:37.640 is our move, like Metrics going to Farm and Tara, 1:54:37.680 --> 1:54:40.880 We're gonna play Club to Peak. Of course, no, it's 1:54:40.920 --> 1:54:45.600 shut down because of like fraudulent tax returns. There's something 1:54:45.640 --> 1:54:49.200 sketchy and it's it's all not happening. But um, I 1:54:49.320 --> 1:54:52.120 love that there is a connection to it other than 1:54:52.200 --> 1:54:54.400 just being a place in my mind that I can 1:54:54.440 --> 1:55:00.400 go Okay. The world is in turmoil, and certainly the 1:55:00.520 --> 1:55:04.440 United States we have this battle between right and left, 1:55:04.600 --> 1:55:09.400 and you also have it in Canada. Does music have 1:55:09.560 --> 1:55:12.200 a place in this, because certainly in the sixties it 1:55:12.360 --> 1:55:16.960 did relative to national international issues. Doesn't have a place, 1:55:17.640 --> 1:55:21.520 And do you believe you need to play or want 1:55:21.600 --> 1:55:26.919 to play a role in that? I think our position 1:55:27.000 --> 1:55:38.160 is like now, Um, it's more about anything that reminds 1:55:38.280 --> 1:55:44.760 people of the the shaded edges of the sides that 1:55:44.840 --> 1:55:48.280 they've chosen, of the left and right. So there's a 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:51.560 song on the new album called false dichotomy um, which 1:55:51.600 --> 1:55:53.600 of course is where you're presented with two things as 1:55:53.640 --> 1:55:57.920 though they are mutually exclusive, but they are not. And 1:55:59.680 --> 1:56:02.360 you know we present you know the idea of there 1:56:02.360 --> 1:56:04.360 are two ideas in the song. They're presented of like 1:56:04.560 --> 1:56:08.120 examples of false dichotomy. You know, being who being you're 1:56:08.400 --> 1:56:10.680 being true to yourself and being successful. That you can't 1:56:10.720 --> 1:56:12.800 be both of those things. That I would say that's 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:16.840 a false dichotomy. And then love and hate I would 1:56:16.840 --> 1:56:20.520 also say is a false dichotomy. Recognizing the complexities like 1:56:21.000 --> 1:56:24.920 the lack of nuance in our sort of public discourse, 1:56:25.080 --> 1:56:30.320 it seems um is part of the problem. And music 1:56:30.600 --> 1:56:36.000 is nothing but communication. So if you know, without being 1:56:36.000 --> 1:56:38.560 two on the nose either because like nothing can be preachy, 1:56:38.640 --> 1:56:40.960 Like I don't have any answers. I have questions, but 1:56:41.040 --> 1:56:43.440 I don't have any answers, you know, but let's all 1:56:43.480 --> 1:56:47.560 just hang out with the questions, like tolerate the lack 1:56:48.080 --> 1:56:52.360 of resolution if you can the fact of the complexities, 1:56:52.800 --> 1:56:56.880 try to find some commonality with other people. Um, but 1:56:57.000 --> 1:57:03.520 the entrenched sides is just uh, it's terrible, and it 1:57:03.560 --> 1:57:08.520 seems to be the inertia is moving everything in those directions, 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:12.440 similar to the sense economically that the inertia of richer 1:57:12.480 --> 1:57:14.960 and richer and poorer and poorer as the middle kind 1:57:15.000 --> 1:57:21.320 of stretches and disappears as a really unnerving and um unpleasant, 1:57:21.680 --> 1:57:24.200 you know, way to live. We gotta we gotta find 1:57:24.200 --> 1:57:27.880 another way to communicate. So hopefully, if anything, it's that. 1:57:27.960 --> 1:57:31.400 But I don't see myself like endorsing a candidate anytime soon. 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:37.640 And you have an American passport, you lived in New York, 1:57:38.200 --> 1:57:41.240 you lived in l A. That's where you had your breakthroughs. 1:57:42.480 --> 1:57:46.400 What is really the difference between Canada and the United States, 1:57:46.400 --> 1:57:52.560 and why do you choose to live in Canada? Um? 1:57:52.600 --> 1:57:56.560 I think that's it an exceedingly case by case and 1:57:56.600 --> 1:58:04.280 personal uh answer everyone would have. In my case, the UM, 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:07.160 the really cool thing that happened is like I mean, 1:58:07.200 --> 1:58:10.240 I think it's from being born in New Delhi and 1:58:10.360 --> 1:58:13.240 always feeling like I'm supposed to be somewhere else, right 1:58:13.240 --> 1:58:16.800 like my parents were on this amazing journey, their romance, 1:58:17.400 --> 1:58:22.080 their world travels, and that it wasn't so it wasn't 1:58:22.120 --> 1:58:24.120 supposed to be that like so that I would then 1:58:24.640 --> 1:58:26.720 stop here supposed to be that I'm supposed to do 1:58:26.760 --> 1:58:32.320 the same thing. And the really great shift that happened, 1:58:32.320 --> 1:58:36.760 as I realized, is like, you know, if I'm able, 1:58:36.880 --> 1:58:38.920 the world is there for me to be in and 1:58:39.320 --> 1:58:43.560 be a part of, but denying the anchor of my 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:47.800 what I honestly feel it almost like a debt to 1:58:47.880 --> 1:58:49.920 this country. I mean, and it's funny because you don't 1:58:49.920 --> 1:58:52.360 think of me as an immigrant, but I am. You know, 1:58:52.760 --> 1:58:54.880 I kind of grown up in some crappy town in 1:58:54.880 --> 1:58:57.200 the United States. So I grew up in a crappy 1:58:57.200 --> 1:59:00.960 sound in Canada. But like, you know, the arts programs, 1:59:01.440 --> 1:59:04.960 the teachers, I had, the friends that I made this 1:59:05.160 --> 1:59:08.880 you know, this country made me. And then I had 1:59:08.920 --> 1:59:12.920 the extreme privilege of also always carrying an American passport 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:16.760 so I could participate in culture uh in that country 1:59:16.760 --> 1:59:20.000 as well, And like I need those cities, those like 1:59:20.760 --> 1:59:23.080 particularly New York. New York is like a person in 1:59:23.120 --> 1:59:26.320 my life. Like I just go by myself with and 1:59:26.440 --> 1:59:29.920 hang out with my friend New York um all the time. 1:59:30.160 --> 1:59:33.960 But I you know, single, being being alone in the world, 1:59:34.600 --> 1:59:37.960 you know, single meaning not related to your relationship status, 1:59:38.000 --> 1:59:42.280 but you in the world is such a beautiful feeling. 1:59:42.320 --> 1:59:45.520 But I'm so happy I realized I'm no longer looking 1:59:45.560 --> 1:59:48.280 to make that anchor somewhere other than Canada. And for 1:59:48.360 --> 1:59:52.160 me to actually answer your question, it's because what Jimmy 1:59:52.200 --> 1:59:55.960 and I built here is so anchored with the Toronto 1:59:56.080 --> 2:00:02.960 community and our beautiful studio and our family, and um, 2:00:03.000 --> 2:00:07.120 that's just I'm so relieved that I have stopped trying 2:00:07.160 --> 2:00:12.440 to be like you know, the absurdity of the idea 2:00:12.480 --> 2:00:15.280 of putting down roots in l A is like I 2:00:15.320 --> 2:00:18.400 can go to l A anytime, get an apartment, stay 2:00:18.440 --> 2:00:23.080 there for years, but no longer with the illusion that 2:00:23.240 --> 2:00:27.080 you know, you can grow a you know, maple tree 2:00:27.160 --> 2:00:33.360 and sand. Okay, Emily, thanks for being so honest and open. 2:00:34.200 --> 2:00:37.760 This is very, very insightful and I want to thank 2:00:37.760 --> 2:00:40.880 you for taking the talk. Thank you, Bob. I appreciated 2:00:40.920 --> 2:00:44.920 the conversation. Until next time. This is Bob left Sex