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Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People who

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Speaker 1: did cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that when bad

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Speaker 1: things are happening, there are people trying to do good things.

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Speaker 1: And some of the people trying to do good things

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Speaker 1: are the historians actually trying to show that the world

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Speaker 1: can be different because the past is different than we

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Speaker 1: think it is because we've been told one way it

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Speaker 1: was and it's not always true. And one person who

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Speaker 1: is doing that work is my guest today, Christopher Zeichmann. Hi,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'd great, Margaret. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: I'm really good. I'm like maybe every time I read

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Speaker 1: an amazing history book, I'll just reach out and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: come on the show. This is wonderful because it's very

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Speaker 1: nice to actually get to engage with these ideas. And okay,

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Speaker 1: this brings me my first point. You were talking last

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Speaker 1: episode about how the academy's in trouble, right, and the

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Speaker 1: social sciences are in trouble. And if you had told

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Speaker 1: me this when I was a twenty year old squatter

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Speaker 1: dropped out of art school, I would have been like, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 1: I don't care to hell with them all anyway, you know,

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Speaker 1: And if you tell me now. Unfortunately, my sister actually

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Speaker 1: was like, that's anti intellectualism, and I was like, who cares.

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Speaker 1: And then I started reading about what that meant, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, bad stuff happens when you do that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I'm kind of exaggerating twenty year old me.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I was that naive about how the

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Speaker 1: world works, but I have more and more respect for

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Speaker 1: exactly what you're doing and what other people are doing.

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Speaker 1: Like when you describe social sciences. I kind of grew

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Speaker 1: up with the essentially right wing idea that that's sort

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Speaker 1: of fuzzy and not real science and whatever. And then

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, you're literally explaining where we come from

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Speaker 1: or helping understand where we come from to break free

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Speaker 1: of actual shackles that have been put upon us by

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Speaker 1: a dominant paradigm. I don't know how to turn this

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Speaker 1: into a question. I'm just really more appreciative of people

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Speaker 1: doing that kind of work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of build pole we were talking about

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Speaker 2: the last episod. I think that's kind of why this

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Speaker 2: is perceived as a threat under a lot of political circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Right so directly in some case where you find like

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Speaker 2: defunding of the academy by you know, the different Department

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Speaker 2: of Education or whatever is going on in the States

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Speaker 2: right now. But beyond that too, I think it's also

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Speaker 2: like a move that a lot of universities are acquiring

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Speaker 2: your classes where, for instance, you might have to read

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Speaker 2: literature or anything like that. Right that, I find that

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Speaker 2: increasingly a lot of students are like, oh, I'm a

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Speaker 2: business students, I'm only gonna take business management classes. Which

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Speaker 2: I've got my own opinions about that stuff. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I think a lot has to do with kind

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Speaker 2: of if you socialize people, you get people to read,

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Speaker 2: get people to think that, people to see that there

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Speaker 2: are other ways of doing things. I think it does

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Speaker 2: present at least a certain base level threat to the

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Speaker 2: social order, right Like, I think that there's often a reason,

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Speaker 2: not exclusively, but like you know, you look back at

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Speaker 2: Paris nineteen sixty eight, it's a lot of university students

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Speaker 2: are involved in kind of uprisings that are right, and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, not only them, not just them. Obviously

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Speaker 2: kind of complex reasons behind that, But I think being

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Speaker 2: exposed to kind of these range of different ways of

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Speaker 2: thinking and practicing can often present a legitimate threat political

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Speaker 2: or especially when it's young people who you know, may

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Speaker 2: have the time, may have the energy in a way

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Speaker 2: that they haven't been engulfed in the system quite yet,

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Speaker 2: the way that you know, once you've hit forty fifty sixty,

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Speaker 2: that you're a little bit more inextricable from you know,

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Speaker 2: the way you get your paycheck or whatever. I suppose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you kind of don't understand death as

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Speaker 1: well yet, sure, Like, just to be real blunt about it,

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm a live forever. I don't care if

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Speaker 1: I die young, you know, And then enough of your

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Speaker 1: friends die young, and you're like, oh, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that.

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Speaker 2: No, not so much.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm probably way older than Spartacus was. Fuck,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how old Spartacus was. Maybe we just

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Speaker 1: straight up don't now, I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we know exactly how old he was,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I don't know. I would assume twenties thirty

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Speaker 2: something like that anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he was. He clearly lived a pretty

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Speaker 1: wild life even before that point. Yeah, And this idea

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Speaker 1: of like the necessity or the usefulness of reading literature,

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Speaker 1: it's funny because I don't want to hand much to

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Speaker 1: the Victorians, right, like the people who get called the Victorians. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people alive during the Victorian era

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Speaker 1: of all kinds of ideas, but the Renaissance man archetype

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Speaker 1: and the like. That's better than someone who just takes

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Speaker 1: business classes, Like someone who desires to be well read,

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Speaker 1: someone who desires to seem at worldly and understand a

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Speaker 1: lot of viewpoints, even if they're a conservative, that is

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Speaker 1: still a better idea. And I liked reading books and

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Speaker 1: literature and stuff, but I didn't quite get the like

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Speaker 1: point and they don't really need to have a point.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that I more and more understand, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this just describes my undiagnosed neurotype. Wow, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: say this on air. I didn't read fiction until like

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Speaker 1: third or fourth grade because I was like, why would

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Speaker 1: I read fake stuff? That's incredible, Like what's the point

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Speaker 1: of fake stuff? And so I read like non books

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Speaker 1: about castles, you know, I still had all the same interests.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then slowly I read some novels and I

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Speaker 1: was like, these are amazing, And the answer is that

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Speaker 1: they allow me to escape my life and the way

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Speaker 1: that you know, a kid will read nonfiction books about

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Speaker 1: castles gets treated. And so I would struggle to understand

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Speaker 1: the point of like literature as a you know, why

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Speaker 1: does a business person need to understand it? And then

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Speaker 1: the answer is, like, it's real because what you learn

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Speaker 1: by reading a literature book from one hundred years ago

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Speaker 1: is you learn what an author felt like their society

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Speaker 1: had to say absolutely, and that helps you understand everything,

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Speaker 1: like understanding people. This is one way to understand people,

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Speaker 1: and it's a probably more useful way than just reading

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Speaker 1: a book about people. I mean, you could do that too,

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Speaker 1: write like a nonfiction book about people. But this is

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Speaker 1: a complete tangent. I just like the idea of the

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Speaker 1: only reading like all that matters is STEM and I

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Speaker 1: like stem. That was what I did with my time

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid. It wouldn't show now.

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Speaker 2: But you know, this is a good point, right, because

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Speaker 2: like I think this is one of those differences between

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Speaker 2: like sort of the fiction nonfiction. Right can you describe

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Speaker 2: something in all of its like nuances, right, like what

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Speaker 2: it would mean to live in ancient Greece and Roman

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Speaker 2: rite kind of all that, or to actually like narrate

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Speaker 2: it in a way that gives kind of attention to

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Speaker 2: all those details are not necessarily worth naming all the

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Speaker 2: time in like a kind of scholar work or nonfiction work, right,

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Speaker 2: But through fiction that often, like you can kind of

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Speaker 2: allow that texture to come out a lot easier in

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Speaker 2: a way that can kind of let those things that's

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Speaker 2: hard to articulate, right, those feelings, those intuitions, those things

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Speaker 2: like that, the complexities aside how we feel ambivalent about things. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, scholarly work is often not always good at

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Speaker 2: that in a way that I think, yeah, literature is,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I certainly sign fiction in several of

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Speaker 2: my classes anyway, because I think, like you're saying, it's

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Speaker 2: one way to kind of at least get a perspective

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Speaker 2: on how different people are thinking about things, right from

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Speaker 2: a different context.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, this is a pivot. But it's the other

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Speaker 1: thing that I left last Well, I was several things

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Speaker 1: I still wanted to talk to you about from last time.

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Speaker 1: Last time, as if we didn't take a five minute break,

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Speaker 1: but we were talking about how the Third Servile War

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Speaker 1: and the community they it's possible that they would have

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Speaker 1: presented themselves as having an anarchia, right, and if so,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit drawing on almost an Athenian idea

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Speaker 1: or at least a Greek language idea. But this is

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Speaker 1: my attempt to kind of read between the lines and

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Speaker 1: run something past you. One of the things you talked

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Speaker 1: about the introduction in your book at a decent length,

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Speaker 1: you describe if Anian democracy was much more directly democratic

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Speaker 1: than I would have expected. I'm weirdly into the idea

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Speaker 1: of ostracizing people or whatever if they present a threat

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Speaker 1: to democracy. That actually seems all right. There's a complications there,

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Speaker 1: but we won't get into it. But how much was

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Speaker 1: this a like we came up with a thing versus

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Speaker 1: like at to use the word thing. All over the world,

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Speaker 1: they're directly democratic structures, and it seems like and I

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Speaker 1: hate when people are like, naturally humans do this, because

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Speaker 1: the answer is naturally humans do a lot of things

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Speaker 1: good and bad. But one of the things that humans

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Speaker 1: naturally do is spokes councils, direct democracy, collective decision making,

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Speaker 1: defederating between equals because if everyone's an equal, then you

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Speaker 1: can't go over that other group and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you have to do what we say. Kind of have

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Speaker 1: to convince them right. And you can see this in

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Speaker 1: societies that Rome is interacting with that they call barbarians,

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Speaker 1: which were not necessarily anarchistic societies but might have had

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Speaker 1: a galitarian practices and things like that. And you see

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Speaker 1: this even more when you talk about indigenous cultures more

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Speaker 1: broadly across the world that the western world than when

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Speaker 1: fucked up right, where you see all of these practices

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Speaker 1: that are very galitaring and interesting to me. So, how

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Speaker 1: much was a Thinnian direct democracy like we invented a

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Speaker 1: new thing versus how much was like, oh, what if

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Speaker 1: we still kind of act almost uncivilized? What if we

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Speaker 1: still kind of act in this way that like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the cultures around us are acting, but bring

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Speaker 1: it into a city. I don't know the answer to this.

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Speaker 2: I think you've hit the nail on the head with

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Speaker 2: a lot of this. So one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I arguing kind of final main chapter, it focuses on pirates,

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Speaker 2: and the first example I used that the so called

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Speaker 2: farming pirates in the subtitle of the book. There basically

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Speaker 2: it's these bunch of pirates who are from kind of

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Speaker 2: Greece and they kind of land on this island, and

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Speaker 2: they create this sort of democratic society there, right, that

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Speaker 2: seems to be anarchistic, right, They kind of share goods together,

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Speaker 2: they kind of rotate who's doing what property. No one

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Speaker 2: seems to really own a whole lot there. They clearly

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Speaker 2: engage in a lot of like collective decision making and

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Speaker 2: so on. And of course your first inclinations like oh,

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Speaker 2: like they're clearly influenced by like Athens Roads and these

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Speaker 2: other Greek democracies that are around there. Well, this was

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Speaker 2: happening centuries before democracy was in any of the cities

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Speaker 2: these people came from. And so I think that in

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Speaker 2: antiquity you can look a pretty distinct examples that before

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Speaker 2: the polists the city state comes to be a thing,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of democracy that we associate with, you know,

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Speaker 2: figures like soul In and kind of those constitutions of

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Speaker 2: Athens and so on, we still find these kind of

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Speaker 2: radically democratic practices of you know, direct democracy, you know,

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Speaker 2: decision making, consensus oriented decision making, ostrosism. All these sort

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Speaker 2: of different things are kind of being practiced in different ways.

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Speaker 2: It just seems to be Athens is codifying it, like

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Speaker 2: you said, bringing it to the city, right, that you know,

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Speaker 2: certainly other cultures not as well documented. Right, we don't

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Speaker 2: know quite as much about say, like the Germans before

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Speaker 2: they have extensive contact with Rome from archaeologia, but like that,

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Speaker 2: that's going to limit what we know there. But what

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Speaker 2: we do know about other kind of Greek cultures that

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Speaker 2: before the formation of the Polists and the city state,

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Speaker 2: they seem to be engaging in a lot of similar direct,

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Speaker 2: democratic ways of doing things in a way that's yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, just kind of bringing it to

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Speaker 2: the cities a lot of what it was, civilizing it,

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Speaker 2: so to speak. I'm doing scare quotes in my hands

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Speaker 2: the cases.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is like I read everything that

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Speaker 1: there is to know about the Germans. That's not true.

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Speaker 1: There is one entire book about the Germans from an

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Speaker 1: ancient historian called Germania or whatever, and I haven't read

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Speaker 1: that whole thing. But I read an awful lot about

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Speaker 1: the Germans and it didn't take me very long. Right,

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because like the Germans, as the example,

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Speaker 1: are being presented well, they're being presented in contrast to

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other barbarians, specifically the Celts, the Gauls,

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Speaker 1: the Scandinavians. I can't remember then what yeah, yeah, the

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Speaker 1: Fenni and then also the Thulians. Yeah, because I remember

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Speaker 1: at one point I think it's Tacitus. Everything kind of

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Speaker 1: annoying is from Tacitus. That's not true. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it is. He's like, and then there's a culture even

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Speaker 1: north of the Swedes that are like the Swedes, but

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Speaker 1: they're run by a woman, you know, and like he's

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Speaker 1: like all upset by it. But then instead he's like,

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Speaker 1: but the Germans, they're monogamous, they're great, they're noble savages,

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Speaker 1: you know. And this is like kind of being contrasted

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Speaker 1: actually to the the Britons, who I didn't realize. There's

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Speaker 1: like almost nothing written about the Britons, and then like

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Speaker 1: one of the only sentences is like, oh and all

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Speaker 1: the brothers like share a wife. I think in your

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Speaker 1: book you talk about a different culture that does that

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Speaker 1: the yeah, yeah, you know, and you're like, well, wait,

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Speaker 1: that's a big thing to just lost past, right, that's

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Speaker 1: a totally different society, you know, and that is like

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Speaker 1: not the way that people when people are like, ah,

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Speaker 1: yes the noble Britons. Beforehand, you're like, yeah, no, they

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Speaker 1: were like they were pretty wild, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: say that positively, and yeah, the Germans were, like maybe

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Speaker 1: they were monogamous, but I don't know, because the person

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Speaker 1: who's writing about them is trying to present them as

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Speaker 1: a positive contrast to the evil, evil Celts, right, and

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Speaker 1: like it's so frustrating. That's the downside of having to

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Speaker 1: connect all the dots yourself, is that you're like, but

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Speaker 1: I want to know the truth. I've never before wanted

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Speaker 1: a time machine in my life, but now I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but I want to do anthropology.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely go back in time and see how acrid tastes

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Speaker 2: is viewing it all these things, right, Yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: that you're pointing definitely to like this issue where like

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Speaker 2: the bias of these sources. So, like, one thing that

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Speaker 2: we find, especially in this case of the Germans, is

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Speaker 2: that like a lot of these ancient authors have their

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Speaker 2: own kind of like theories of civilization, right, and so

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Speaker 2: a lot of this tends to be like, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're geographically closer to Rome, then this you're inherently

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Speaker 2: more civilized than someone who's further away from Rome. And

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Speaker 2: the further you get away from that, the less and

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Speaker 2: less civilized you are. And a lot of this has

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Speaker 2: to do with like weird theories about like climate and

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Speaker 2: kind of like very little environmental determinism, right, like right

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Speaker 2: that Rome has the perfect climate, so it's the most

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Speaker 2: reasonable people, you know, the best culture, the best political system,

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Speaker 2: and that the further you go away from you know,

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Speaker 2: this kind of perfect navel of the world is what

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Speaker 2: they would have called it, the more screwy it all gets, right,

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Speaker 2: and we find different versions of this. Even Herodotus, the

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Speaker 2: first historian, has similar ideas. He's if you want to

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Speaker 2: read some wild made up shit, this is what I

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Speaker 2: always designed my students is just reads ethnographic descriptions of

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Speaker 2: like the Ethiopians or like Persians, and it's just stuff

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Speaker 2: where it's like they were a turban on their head

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Speaker 2: because their school is weak. It's like I don't believe

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Speaker 2: that for a moment, right, Like there were people just

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Speaker 2: like Gola pullet It take it that when they read

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Speaker 2: this or like, well it really has to this own

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Speaker 2: kind of theory about culture and like, oh, like the

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Speaker 2: environment and climate kind of affects these things, and you

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Speaker 2: have to do a lot of like parsing of these

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Speaker 2: weird biases that they have in these ancient authors, these

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Speaker 2: ancient texts to at least start to get a sense of, all, right,

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Speaker 2: what can we actually say with any confidence about the Germans? Right?

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Speaker 2: What can we say with any confidence about the Celtiberians

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Speaker 2: or whatever? Right? And it's a frustrating process where again

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. The only solution this is just

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Speaker 2: like getting in that Dolore and going eighty eight miles

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Speaker 2: an hour and heading back, you know, the first century

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Speaker 2: of the Common era there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want it desperately, Okay, but environmental determinism. I

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Speaker 1: did a couple episodes last year about Peter Krepawkin's mutual

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Speaker 1: aid theories for listeners who haven't listened to those episodes.

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Speaker 1: Peter Krepawkin was a prince of Russia who became one

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Speaker 1: of the more important an as Communist theorists, and he

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Speaker 1: also was a evolutionary biologist who kind of presented a

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Speaker 1: third way that modern evolutionary biologists tend to lean towards

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Speaker 1: to avoid some of the conflicts with an evolutionary biology

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Speaker 1: at the time, and he basically present a mutual aid.

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Speaker 1: As a boy, he wrote a book called Mutual Aida

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Speaker 1: Factor in Evolution and he was an environmental determinist. Now

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Speaker 1: he was wrong about some of it, right, Like some

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Speaker 1: of his theories around the depopulation of cities and China

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Speaker 1: and stuff were proven wrong. And he had like whole

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Speaker 1: theories about like I think he's the one who had

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Speaker 1: discovered how glaciers move, like the fact that the like

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Speaker 1: super solid.

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize that's what.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like he went to Sweden after continuing to study glaciers. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: his whole thing is he's like he went to go

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Speaker 1: find all this competition that Darwin, Charles Darwin came up with.

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Speaker 1: Charles Darwin was like competition everywhere in nature, and he

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to go find it and prove

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Speaker 1: it because I love science. And he goes to Siberia

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Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm going to find all the competition

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Speaker 1: and he's like, why are these animals hanging out with

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Speaker 1: each other helping each other? And he like he didn't

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Speaker 1: go into it being like I'm going to prove Darwin wrong.

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Speaker 1: You went into prove it Darwin right. And he was

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Speaker 1: like oh, and he wasn't like Darwin's a fool or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But what he came up with for a while is

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Speaker 1: he was like, well, I guess when life is harder,

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Speaker 1: you're more cooperative, and so the further you get away

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Speaker 1: from Rome, he didn't phrase it that way, but I'm

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Speaker 1: going to the more cooperative people get. And this ties

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Speaker 1: into one of the things I want to ask you,

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Speaker 1: which is that, like, is the Mediterranean just like the

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Speaker 1: most uniquely evil center of evil human ideas? Because like, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I think the Goals were probably sacrificing people, but so

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Speaker 1: were the Romans, even though they had just outlawed it.

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Speaker 1: They were like, instead we throw them to the literal

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Speaker 1: lions in the fucking colisseum, Like what are you saying that?

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Speaker 1: Is that not human sacrifice? But like patriarchy, we tend

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Speaker 1: to assume the natural condition of the human society is patriarchy,

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Speaker 1: because all of the society is not all of probably,

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Speaker 1: but I think all of them from like the Mediterranean

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Speaker 1: area that we're like culturally evolved from, are all really patriarchal.

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Speaker 1: Like is this a was this just like the worst

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Speaker 1: time and place or was like everyone just real crappy?

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Speaker 1: And this is one of my main questions.

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Speaker 2: Well this is a huge question, then, yeah, because it's

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Speaker 2: sort of like what those kind of questions of like

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Speaker 2: hierarchy and domination, Like how inextricable is that from sort

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Speaker 2: of the Mediterranean antiquity that we're talking about here, And

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Speaker 2: you're right, like it's stuff that seems pretty inescapable, right Like.

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Speaker 2: We find people articulating almost every wild idea you can

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Speaker 2: imagine in the ancient world, But we don't really find

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Speaker 2: people articulating ideas like the end of patriarchy in an

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Speaker 2: absolute sense, right like, or the end of slavery in

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Speaker 2: an absolute sense, right like, even you know, certainly slaves

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Speaker 2: want freedom, right Certainly they might want for their friends

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Speaker 2: as well. They may not like it as an institution,

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Speaker 2: But we don't find these kind of like ideas that, hey,

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Speaker 2: we could have the entire world where this isn't the case,

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Speaker 2: or like, you know, maybe we should end it everywhere, right,

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Speaker 2: It seems to be often these kind of personal quests

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Speaker 2: are kind of smaller scale collective quests to imagine the

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Speaker 2: world differently. You the flip size is possible that this

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Speaker 2: is only the part that's documented, right, because those people

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Speaker 2: who would be not engaging these sorts of things. Right. So,

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Speaker 2: one one kind of interlude I do in the book

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Speaker 2: is looking at the region of Phrygia, which is kind

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Speaker 2: of in a certain part of what we did they

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Speaker 2: called Turkey, right, yes, and this is a society where

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Speaker 2: you know you're talking about anti intellectualism earlier. Well they

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Speaker 2: kind of identify, like, hey, how do people exploit us? Well,

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Speaker 2: it's through these bureaucrats who basically make us do our taxes,

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Speaker 2: give us these laws, and do all these sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: And what if we just like forget how to read,

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Speaker 2: forget how to write, and what are they going to

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Speaker 2: do then? Right, if no one here knows how to

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Speaker 2: read or write, there's going to be known to create

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Speaker 2: these laws, to enforce these laws, create tax and you know,

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Speaker 2: collect those taxes. We refuse to use any money. And

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Speaker 2: for the course of like several hundred years, people in

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Speaker 2: this region seem to not really use the written word

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Speaker 2: at all, right, And this means like we don't know

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Speaker 2: much about them.

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Speaker 1: And they had it before and then they had it again,

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Speaker 1: but then they missed several hundred years.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, so they deliberately gave it up, like they

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Speaker 2: had the written word. They deliberately gave up the written word.

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Speaker 2: And like the Greek empires, the Roman Empires are really

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Speaker 2: trying to be like, hey, we're going to create these

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Speaker 2: really cool cities. All you people in Fridgia should come

401
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Speaker 2: and move this great city, and like like, yeah, no thing,

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Speaker 2: We're going to live in our little houses. We're going

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Speaker 2: to keep where they are. We're not gonna have commerce

404
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Speaker 2: with you, we're not gonna come to learn there, we're

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Speaker 2: not going to really participate in our society much. And

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Speaker 2: so like these kind of larder scale collective forms of resistance,

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Speaker 2: which again it's not really well documented. We know about

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Speaker 2: this from occasional references and kind of archaeological evidence. We're

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Speaker 2: just noticing like the complete disappearance of kind of certain

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Speaker 2: social structures, certain types of inscriptions and monuments. But I

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Speaker 2: think that to the extent that people were resisting this,

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Speaker 2: I think the book picks up, you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: six main examples and a few kind of smaller examples,

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Speaker 2: but no doubt there is thousands of different societies, whether

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Speaker 2: it's lower scale, small scale in the ancient world who

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Speaker 2: weren't doing this, and just evidence has been lost, right

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Speaker 2: like in the same way today, right a lot of

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Speaker 2: those kind of radical communities that I guess today in

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Speaker 2: the world of technology and the Internet is kind of

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Speaker 2: harder to not be known. But you know, imagining just

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Speaker 2: even one hundred to hundred years ago, certainly there would

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Speaker 2: have been in North America, in Europe people living in

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Speaker 2: these kind of radical lives that just aren't documented.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay to push back on things not being documented now.

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Speaker 1: Last night, like a normal person, I was researching interior

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Speaker 1: design on YouTube, which is a totally everyone does that,

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking about some of the interior design

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Speaker 1: trends amongst my friends from like fifteen years ago that

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Speaker 1: I was really impressed by, and so I was like

430
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: magical decadence. It was a specific named esthetic idea in

431
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest like fifteen years ago, where it was

432
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: like you paint your wall's deep dark color and everything

433
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: is covered in furs and skulls and like it's like dark, decadent,

434
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 1: punk hippie stuff and I really like it. So it's

435
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 1: like I want to find some examples, you know, And

436
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,239
Speaker 1: then I'm like, oh man, the Internet haven't got that

437
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: no more, like if it ever did, like that's a

438
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: whole culture and name, you know, or like try looking

439
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: up for Googles, which is the word that I use

440
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: the most on a regular basis that no one I

441
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: talk to on outside of the subculture I'm in understand

442
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about about, like street kids, you know.

443
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 1: But no, I really like this idea you're presenting, and

444
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 1: it kind of helps click things for me, where it's

445
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: like the people who have written all of this stuff

446
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: are going to be the more patriarchal folks are going

447
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 1: to be the more whatever, like you know, state building

448
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: and empire building folks, and so in the same way

449
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 1: that the gulls. That's a big term with a lot

450
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: of different cultures within it over the course of thousands

451
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 1: of years. But we're going to pretend like there's some

452
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: radical interesting stuff happening there, and they weren't really writing

453
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: stuf down, and neither were these Phrygians, and neither were

454
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: all of these people who were in this. So that's

455
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: a good argument against environmental determinism. I appreciate it, Thank you,

456
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: Okay pointing out that like no one was saying like, hey,

457
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: maybe we should just get rid of slavery entirely for

458
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: everyone forever, right, and very very few people were saying

459
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 1: anything like that. And it is interesting because I think

460
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: about how we have a hard time especially as Americans

461
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 1: understanding ancient slavery. It's one of the things that I

462
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: feel like I have to explain a lot on this

463
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: show because the context that I come from and the

464
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: context that most of my listeners come from, has the

465
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: Transatlantic slave.

466
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 2: Trade in it. Yeah.

467
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, North America is this like post apocalyptic wasteland of

468
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: one of the most evil empires in the world showed

469
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: up and enslaved and genocided and then created a society

470
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: and declared it the most free society in the world.

471
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: And it's the level of nonsense of that is like

472
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: so deep that it's hard to extricate from. And we

473
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 1: have a hard time picturing slavery elsewhere in the world partly,

474
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: and it's from both the right and the left, right

475
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: because on some level the left doesn't want to detract

476
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: from how uniquely evil the Transatlantic slave trade was, and

477
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: so therefore I run across stuff that, like paints, Greek

478
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: and Roman slavery is like a little bit idyllic, and

479
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: like Diogenes is the perfect example of this. You know,

480
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: he's a cynic philosopher. What you wrote about him in

481
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: this book, I'm explained to the audience, not you. You know

482
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: he was the Cynic Philosopher to a couple episodes about

483
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,239
Speaker 1: him where he as a kid owned slaves and then

484
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: as an adult became a slave, but he was also

485
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: like a mentor, He was like a tutor as a slave,

486
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: and then eventually they freed him and it was his

487
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: own the people who had enslaved him. That family paid

488
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: for his funeral, and it was all very happy slavery,

489
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: right yeah, And so people will present like, ah, that's

490
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: Greek slavery or like Ottoman slavery where you have like

491
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: publicly owned slaves. I think Greece did this too, but

492
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: not sure. But then when people don't recognize is that

493
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: you still just had like horrible everything, bad people dying

494
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: in the fields and the mind stuff too, and it

495
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: was this horrible society. I find it so frustrating that

496
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: it's so hard to talk about because it is so

497
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: important to understand that, like all over the world, every

498
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: society owns people, and so it never occurred to people

499
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: that that wouldn't be a thing that can happen, right,

500
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: And I think that's the same thing we run across

501
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: in like the prison abolition movement right now for sure,

502
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: where people are like Yeah, but that doesn't make any sense. Like,

503
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: obviously prison is kind of bad, but like, of course

504
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: there's prisons. There's always been prisons, which is completely untrue.

505
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a perfect kind of analogy there, right,

506
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: that kind of how we've come to think of this

507
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: very recent institution of like the prison as like this

508
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: sort of historical inevitability, right, that this is a particular

509
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 2: form that the prison takes today is very recent. And

510
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: even you look at the ancre world, they just weren't

511
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: really pre right. There was stuff where it's like you know,

512
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: convict labor, you know, you know, you might be sentenced

513
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: the minds and stuff like that to work and you know,

514
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: a gold mind and you know, just work your days

515
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: to death there. And I think Mark Fisher had that

516
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 2: kind of great saying about how it's easier to imagine

517
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: at the end of the world than is to imagine

518
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: the end of capitalism, right yeah. And I think like

519
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things in our society that are similar, right,

520
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: whether it's I mentioned the end of the prison, the

521
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: end of the state, the end of you know, take

522
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: your pick there, right, And I think in the ancient

523
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: world there's a lot that was similar to that it

524
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: was just you make it hard for people to imagine

525
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: the world being differently by threatening them for imagining differently,

526
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: by taking away any resources that would be capable of

527
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 2: presenting those alternatives. You know, with slavery too in the

528
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: ancient world, right, like I think of how you know

529
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: it's Sparta, Right, they called their slaves helots, right, And

530
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: one of the kind of the rituals that the Spartans

531
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: had was, you know, young men, a certain class young

532
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 2: man every year on the way to becoming Spartan citisence.

533
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: Part of this path of citizenship was they went basically

534
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: go out and go slave hunting, go out and hunt

535
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: the helots in a way of kind of like saying, okay,

536
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 2: like become a Spartan, you must be prepared to enact

537
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: violence upon these bodies, you know, these helos, these slaves,

538
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: that this is your right and even your duty. This

539
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: is probably becoming you know, identifying with spart as a

540
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 2: city state, but also reminding helots like we can inflict

541
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: whatever fucked up violence we want on you with impunity,

542
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: whenever we want, and there's nothing you can do about it. Right,

543
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: So limiting their imagination, so the he loss themselves. Haven't

544
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: imagine a world with freedom without slavery and things like that, right, yeah,

545
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: and so I think there's kind of today this happens

546
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 2: in some ways with certain kind of social institutions, right,

547
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: and in the h War with slavery too, right, think

548
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: your pick, patriarchy, all these sorts of things.

549
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: Just to kind of sit on that for a second,

550
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: it's a sorry, yeah, And so like what it didn't

551
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: occur to me is that ideas need to be invented

552
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: to that, like social technologies are technologies, like to go

553
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: back to social science as a science, Like someone kind

554
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: of needed to say, what if we all vote? Right?

555
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: Right?

556
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: And now that might be like older than the wheel,

557
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: you know, but like somewhere along the line, people have

558
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: to kind of invent what if we like don't own people.

559
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's very easy in the modern world to

560
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: kind of look back on some of these people who

561
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: like the First Servile War. Everything you just said is

562
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: a beautiful example of why the First Servile War was necessary.

563
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: And even if I want to be like, eh, just

564
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: kind of reinvented the state again, but like, you know what,

565
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: he's still the I don't remember that Seer's name, but

566
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: he was like, hello, I talked to a god who

567
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: tells me that I am going to become king over you.

568
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: And they were all like ha ha ha ha, you silly,

569
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: you know, entertaining house slave. And he was like, yeah, totally,

570
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: and then he did. So I can't say he was

571
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: wrong or that his god was wrong, because he sure

572
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: like took over, you know, and someone needed to. And

573
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: so the third servile war is you alluded to, probably

574
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: doesn't happen without the first two. That's interesting.

575
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like a lot of this has to do.

576
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: I guess part of the goal of writing this book

577
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: too is sort of like to just say that there

578
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: are these precedents for ways of doing things right kind

579
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 2: of One thing that I talked about in the conclusion,

580
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: for instance, is that how we imagine America and its

581
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: democracy right, that when we tend to think of democracy,

582
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: whether here in Canada or the United States, right, we

583
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: tend to think of you know, at most, you go

584
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: and vote for politicians and then you're just annoy the

585
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: next four years, whether because you're unhappy with the result

586
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: or because you have to call your politicians, et cetera,

587
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: et cetera, and nothing happens what you want it to.

588
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: And when we look at kind of a lot of

589
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: early American democracy, right, it's a lot more radical and

590
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: kind of anarchistic in this Greek sense the word, right,

591
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: that we find kind of accounts of people having these

592
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: kind of town hall meetings where they would just like

593
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: go out and like find the local tax collector who's

594
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: like try and take money from these broke people and

595
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: say like no, we're just going to burn your ledgers, right,

596
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: or we're going to prohib you from entering this to

597
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: that area. And I think that even what we think

598
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: of it as democracy United States, it wasn't always this way.

599
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be this way, right. I think

600
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: we tend to think of these things what our society is,

601
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: even at large scales, kind of like ossified, like it

602
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: can't change, it's written in stone. Now, it is often

603
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: hard for us to imagine the US Empire becoming something

604
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: different except by way of like nuclear apocalypse, right, right,

605
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: and whatever that might look like, it's going to take

606
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: a crashity to get there.

607
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: My money is on NATO invading us, but I don't know,

608
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: cray it'll happen.

609
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 2: Who knows, right?

610
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, badly everyone hears a lot of guns.

611
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and so like, one are those possibilities for

612
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: like how a different version of American here? I don't

613
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: necessarily mean the United States of America as a country,

614
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: but like, how can those ways that we organize our

615
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: politics be different? And just remember like it wasn't always

616
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: as wayted on definitely this way. There are mechanisms, whether

617
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: it's official legal mechanism or kind of more revolutionary mechanisms too,

618
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: to create a different society within the United States too,

619
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: write large scale, small skill whatever that might be. No,

620
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense to me.

621
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: One of the things that doing this show has really

622
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: changed some of my perspective on modern politics is around

623
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: like you know, a lot of my earlier episodes because

624
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: of my own interests and whatever around like Irish history, right,

625
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: and you know Irish rebellions, and my great uncle fought

626
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: on the Easter Rising, and I shook his hand on

627
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: his hundredth birthday, and like, you know, I'm like pretty

628
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: excited about that. That's like I'm taking that with me

629
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: till I die, you know, And that was eight hundred

630
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: years into colonization, was the Easter Rising, right, And like

631
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: I am certain that a large chunk of Irish society

632
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: saw it as a done deal. They're like, I guess

633
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: we're just kind of British now, you know, and like

634
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: you have a lot of obviously there's like cultural divisions

635
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: and religious divisions, but there was still kind of those

636
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 1: ethnic divisions are a lot blurry. You're there, right, So

637
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: it felt like probably done until in the nineteenth century

638
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: people are like, what if we like really set out

639
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: to figure out how Ireland could not be in the

640
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: empire anymore? And that was like a technological idea, like

641
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: that was a social technology. I'm probably using the word

642
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: technology wrong here, but like you know, someone had to

643
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: kind of invent the idea of like, well, what if

644
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: we're not like this anymore? Right?

645
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

646
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: And also North America has been colonized for five hundred years, right,

647
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: it's not too late. You know, it's never too late

648
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: to actually see decolonization. It just there's no easy blueprint.

649
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: This is where social sciences are, like you know, revolutionary sciences,

650
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: like some versions of Marxism or whatever that fall flat

651
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: is that they're like, ah, we figured out the AB

652
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: and C method of doing this, and you're like a

653
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: that's that's there's a lot more of an art to it,

654
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, it's not too late, and

655
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: I like the idea that that's part of the point

656
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: of looking at the past.

657
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: So I appreciate that absolutely. Yeah, I think a lot

658
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: of these groups again, you know, you point to some here, right,

659
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think of with David Graeb and

660
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: David Wendrow and their book The Dawn of Everything, Right,

661
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: they have some great examples of, you know, throughout the world.

662
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 2: But I think some of that's striking me is they

663
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: think about here, even within kind of a North America,

664
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: right when there was like an indigenous empire along the

665
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: Ohio Valley and stuff like that, and that was not

666
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: a nevill right that basically their argument is sort of

667
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: that empire had collapsed at a point and then shortly

668
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: afterwards Christopher Clumps arrives and screws things up for the

669
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: people who managed to get out of one empire, and there,

670
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: I guess, out of the frying pan into the boiler

671
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: in that case. But again that these things may last

672
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: long time, they may look like there isn't any other

673
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: option there. But I think identifying those weak points as

674
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: a big parts, right, and even a lot of what

675
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: these these holidies, the states, these empires is they often

676
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: project power that they don't have, right. A lot of

677
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: this is convincing people that it's a Neville right. So

678
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: again with an antiquity, we really see that it's very

679
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: easy to escape the state, you know. Kind of one

680
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: example would be sort of in the Black Desert, so

681
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: kind of pars of what today be called like Jordan

682
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: and kind of like Lebanon area, we found all these

683
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: really interesting inscriptions in the language that hadn't previously known.

684
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: It seems to be kind of proto Arabic in some ways.

685
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: We call it Stephietic. And what's clear is like this

686
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: is the Black Desert. This is like not part of

687
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: the Roman Empire's definitely like the periphery of that. But

688
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: people are living like really complex, sophisticated lives there. They

689
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: don't have cities. They kind of like just cultivate. They

690
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: you know, travel wild and they come back at the

691
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: end of the season to get their plants. And we

692
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: find that like there's a striking number of like Greek

693
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: and Roman names among these people. Oh shit, which suggests

694
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: like people are leaving the Roman, the Greek Empire, saying

695
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: this looks way more appealing than what we're doing in

696
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: Athens in you know, yeah, Constantinople, I guess coconstant Hop

697
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: a bit later. But things like that, right, that that

698
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: people can find these alternatives and recognize, like you can't

699
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: get these points where these things you don't like about society,

700
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: whether it's the state or patriarch, and finding those weak

701
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: points and be able to operate within those spaces and

702
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: find what you can get away with their you know,

703
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: kind of like you're talking about, was the magical decadence, right,

704
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: the escape the grasp of YouTube, and yet was still

705
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: a thing, right, you know, aesthetic that had a profound

706
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: impact on you. There. Yeah, we can do this in

707
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: other ways too, right, that elude the grasp of the

708
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,959
Speaker 2: state of powerful people. Things like that.

709
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: I really like that, I really and that ties. Okay,

710
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: So this idea that you know, Greeks and Romans were

711
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: just going to this area and black desert and they

712
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, no, I'm good. I don't remember my

713
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: source on this, but like when white people would leave

714
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: American culture to go join indigenous culture in North America,

715
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: they never came back versus like when Indigenous people would

716
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: end up in American culture, they'd often be trying very

717
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: hard to get back, you know, and like, yeah, there's

718
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: just like some life in its nice.

719
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: So well documented too, right, Yeah, you read these texts

720
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: from like you know, the sixteenth seventeen to eighteenth centuries,

721
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 2: like oh, it's just like they were, you know, maybe

722
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 2: a white person's capitial of war. And then there's like, oh,

723
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 2: like actually I really like living with the huron when

724
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: dat like this is dope, I know, like yeah, sure

725
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: I missed my family a bit, but like this is

726
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 2: a happier way of living, right, And yeah, you find

727
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: this pretty consistently too, when you know, like you said

728
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 2: that the flip side, right, And I think in Canada

729
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of reflection on this too, where

730
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: it's like when you find the reverse and Native people

731
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: have been kidnapped by you know, the settlers, right, they

732
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: don't really want to go back. Right, Certain ways are

733
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: kind of almost inherently more appealing than other ways of living.

734
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: And like you said, I think in kind of the

735
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: comments off screen at one point, but like we've convinced

736
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: ourselves that like we were in the freest society that's

737
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: ever lived, and yet like any look at other ways

738
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: of living will like say, this is the monsterbly not true? Right,

739
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: Like I'd rather live in the US or Canada than

740
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: North Korea, right yeah, But like there's also so many

741
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 2: better ways of doing things than the way we're doing

742
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: things right now. And you know, we've just often you

743
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: hear people say things like, oh, it's just like that's

744
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: how things get done in America. It's like, well, it

745
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be that way, right, Like we can

746
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: do things different.

747
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: Right to just continue to reference the ghost of poor

748
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: David Graeber. One of his most famous quotes is, you

749
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: know something like we all wake up and make this

750
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: world every single day, and the great truth is that

751
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: we could wake up and make it differently. I teas

752
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: at the end of episode while we're talking about Diogenes,

753
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: so speaking of someone who wanted to see the world

754
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: be in a different way. I did a couple episodes

755
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: about diogenies and the Cynics, but largely about Diogenies, and

756
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: my kind of takeaway was I probably will like the

757
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: rest of the cinics more than I like this one

758
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: crotchety old man, and I see that you have a

759
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: chapter about this in the book Look Behind the Curtains

760
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: for the audience. I have only read some of the

761
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: chapters of your book yet, I've already told you this,

762
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: but I'm telling the audience this because of the way

763
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: my brain works, I kind of have to engage with them,

764
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: like I've skimmed all of it, and I have read

765
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: several pieces of it, but I kind of need to

766
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: engage with it, like piece by piece as I deep

767
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 1: dive things. Otherwise my brain will spiral into a million

768
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: different things and never accomplish my job. But I saw

769
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: that you had a piece about Diogenes and the Cynics.

770
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: I was really afraid with that episode because Diogenes is

771
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people's favorite, right, and he's he's got

772
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: some fucking bangers, like in a rich man's house, there's

773
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: nowhere to spit but his face. Yeah, and he's not

774
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: quite a throw. He doesn't have his mom bringing him lunch,

775
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, but he like he feels more in that

776
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: tradition than I expected. And I don't know, I'm curious. Well,

777
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: I could go on my rant about why he's complicated,

778
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: but I'm curious your take on Diogenes in the Sinics

779
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: before I'll get into the more specifics.

780
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, so I think I would agree to your sessment.

781
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: They're definitely a mixed bag, right, Like I think that

782
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: this is I think what I would characterize them are

783
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: sort of like disaffected intellectuals, right, like people who come

784
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: from a certain amount of privilege. There's usually people who

785
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: are like not always, but often, I think the better

786
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: known ones anyway, pnnicover a certain mind of privileg and

787
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 2: then they go to like Athens were like, oh, hey,

788
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: like I can't vote here because I'm from a different

789
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: city and I don't have Athenian citizenship or whatever. Right,

790
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: this isn't always the case. I think a lot of

791
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: cynics are kind of like, you know, foreign slaves and

792
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: then end up you know, becoming philosophers along the way there.

793
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: But I think that there is like a pretty profound

794
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: critique of power and what they do. And I also

795
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: really like how they're very like practice oriented personally, so

796
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: whereas like a lot of I guess one of the

797
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: difference between ancient and modern philosophy is like that some practice, right,

798
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: so like be a stoic, to be a cynic, to

799
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: be an Epicurean was focused on like this particular understanding

800
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: of what the good life looks like and how to

801
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: go about doing that. Of course, now we think about philosophy,

802
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: what we think about like these really abstract debates that

803
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 2: verge on meaningless, like a theory of justice that you know, okay, great, right,

804
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: this near law journal review, so no one can read

805
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: it type thing, right, right, These kind of ancient philosophers

806
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: where it was like very practice oriented, and I think

807
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: like this sort of ideas of like boldness, this ideas

808
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: of like speaking truth to power. I think those are

809
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 2: things that I find appeeling about cynics, even if like

810
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: there's still difficult to separate from a lot of what's

811
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 2: messed up in antiquity. I'm curious to hear what your

812
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: problem with them is. I don't know if you want

813
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: to give that now or later.

814
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: Now, No, I'm into it. Let's talk about it. I

815
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: think what it is, it's my own. You hate the

816
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: things that are closest to you when they're like slightly wrong, right,

817
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: Like my audience knows this. I don't know if I've

818
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: told you this. My background is I was a traveling

819
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: street kid activist, right. I lived out of a backpack, I,

820
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: you know, hitchhiked and I was voluntarily homeless. I come

821
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: from a middle class background, and I was just like,

822
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: I want to change the world, and the way to

823
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: do it is to not work a job so I

824
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: could do activism full time. And the culture that I

825
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: fell in with that is like punks who travel and

826
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: squat and dumpster dive and like do a lot of

827
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: very cynic things. And for anyone who's listening to these episodes,

828
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: a cynic in this case is not the modern definition.

829
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 1: It's about as useless as like what anarchists are versus

830
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: what people think anarchists are. You know, but all of

831
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: the critiques that were accurate at the street kid culture

832
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: of anarchists in the early aughts are accurate as critiques

833
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: of the cynics. So I have a bitterness. And it's

834
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: specifically that lifestyle changes. It's individual solutions to systemic problems. Right,

835
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of change your light bulbs to led

836
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: to stop global warming.

837
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 2: Sure.

838
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: Sure, Now it's a little bit more complete than that, right,

839
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: It's more like the equivalent of sell your car, ride

840
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: a bike, grow all your food organic, you know, like

841
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of like drop out culture right where you stop

842
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: adding to the problem. There's a value to that, but

843
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't fix things. But I actually need to forgive

844
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: Diogenes and the cynics more because as I've been talking

845
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: through these episodes, I'm like, oh, yeah, someone had to

846
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: invent these things, right, and like we should have known better.

847
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: But Diogenies doesn't necessarily need to know better because he's

848
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: like he's anti slavery, but he's not anti like the

849
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: institution of slavery. He's anti slavery because he's anti like

850
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: decadence and owning stuff. Yeah, he's anti slavery the same

851
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: way he's anti like having nice clothes.

852
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: I think it's an aura characterization.

853
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting because I'm like he probably on

854
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: some gut level was like also just actually anti slavery,

855
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, but maybe not. I can't tell. So there's

856
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: a lot of like not questioning the larger structure and

857
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: only questioning like the individual. And yeah, this idea of

858
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: like how do you live the good life? We now

859
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: associate that with decadence, right, like if you care about

860
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: self care, and I mean I do care about these

861
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: I literally wrote an essay that went up on my

862
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: substack like two weeks ago called the punk rock good Life.

863
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: So this is some pot talking about the color of

864
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 1: the kettle thing going on, right, But like it doesn't

865
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: solve these things, and so that's okay, right, he doesn't

866
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: need to. He's still a more interesting character. I'm mostly mad.

867
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: And the thing I kind of want to talk to

868
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: you about if you know much about gender in like

869
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: Roman and Greek society, because there's a couple points. Okay,

870
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: one my big conjecture I made about him, the big

871
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: red Strings theory. I Drew did an episode about the

872
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to not remember how to pronounce this, the galley,

873
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: the trans priestesses of Rome who were oh yeah, yeah,

874
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: and of Greece before that, and then I think from

875
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: Phrygia originally that particular goddess, although there's less evidence one

876
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: way than other about whether or not her priestesses were

877
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: trans in Anatolia versus when they came over to Greece,

878
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: by that point they were trans women, right, and very

879
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,479
Speaker 1: actively trans women. Historians historically were like, we don't quite

880
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: know what to make of these guys who dressed as

881
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: women and cut their dicks off, and you know, lived

882
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: as women and had a sisterhood and you're like, ah,

883
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: it's because they're women, and modern historians have solved this

884
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: because modern historians include trans women who are like, this

885
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: is actually a very easily recognizable thing. Sure, Like this

886
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: is not complicated to us, you know. Yeah, But Diogen's

887
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: famous earned that he lived in was outside the temple

888
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: of Sibylly. Siby is the name of the goddess that

889
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: they were the priestesses of, and was given to him

890
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: to live in by the priestesses. So Diogenes was housed

891
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: by trans women, I think, because I haven't found evidence

892
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: of the cult around Sibylly not including a lot of

893
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: people who weren't trans women. Sure, So I've never seen

894
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: anyone make the point that Diogenes was housed by trans women.

895
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: But he has a lot of really specific anti trans statements,

896
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 1: and they're complicated, Like he complains he sees a young

897
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: man like shaving his beard, and he's like, oh, you're

898
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: too good for what God gave. You're right on, VI

899
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: said God, But like what nature gave you, you're better

900
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: than the animals. You're going to change your face to

901
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: be more effeminate instead of being a real man like me. Like,

902
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: it's also telling that he loved Sparta, he never went there,

903
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: which I also think is telling. I mean, I think

904
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: he probably went there, but like he mostly lived in

905
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: Athens and another city immediately western. Yeah, you like walk

906
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: back and forth between. But he was like, ah, Sparta,

907
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: where the men are men, you know. But he would

908
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: complain about men effeminatizing themselves, right, even though he had

909
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: been housed by these women, and that annoys me. But

910
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: then the more complicated part is that his homophobia is

911
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: tied into anti pederasty and so this is like the

912
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: like I'm just literally looking at this in a modern

913
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: lens instead of you know, but like I'm very anti pederasty,

914
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: but I'm like very pro gay, And that was a

915
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: dichotomy because like homosexuality didn't exist in the same way

916
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: that we think of it today. Then I don't know,

917
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: I don't know where I'm going with this. I just

918
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: I find it fascinating.

919
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think you're right. And like a lot

920
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: of work that's been done in kind of like fear

921
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 2: antiquity is like super complicated because like it's not exactly

922
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: like nothing corresponds perfectly what we're talking about today, Right,

923
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: we can find resonances of certain source. Right, I think,

924
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: like the trans women connection that I think you're drawing

925
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: is like a great except like a pretty strong kind

926
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: of like you know, there's resonances there, right, But like

927
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: what we talk about, like what do we think about

928
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: like a gay relationship, right, like two people peers right

929
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: like roughly the same age anyway, consensual relationship, et cetera,

930
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: et cetera. Like that just wasn't a thing for Greeks

931
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 2: or Romans, right, right, it was precisely that power imbalance

932
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: is what made those things function in antiquity, right, Like,

933
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: it was not really what we talk about it today

934
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: for them, right, Like it was really that what made

935
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: a relationship proper is that like, Okay, I'm a Roman man,

936
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: so I can be in a relationship with a younger

937
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: person of a foreign person, a man who's less masculine

938
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: me or a woman. It's like that's kind of what

939
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 2: made sexual relationships acceptable for them, right, which doesn't correspond

940
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: all of what we think about an acceptable relationship today. Yeah,

941
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 2: And this is, as you know, also tied up with

942
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: like these kind of preoccupations are like proper gender too, right,

943
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: Like to be a good man against scare quotes around

944
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: all of that is to like express your domination properly, right,

945
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: And so this means like people are respecting right when

946
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 2: you tell someone to do something and they're your slave,

947
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: your wife, your child, your employee, that they're obeying, right.

948
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 2: There's things like that that make you a proper man,

949
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: along with like how you comport your boy or are

950
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: you dressing properly your body here? All that sort of stuff, right,

951
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: And this of course changes over time, and Diogenes is

952
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: certainly not separate from any of this, where I would

953
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: maybe hint at possibly he wasn't as bad as you're

954
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 2: hinting at, is I think that Romans were much more

955
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: preoccupied with these questions around proper gender than Greeks were.

956
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: And most of the sources we have about Diogenes are

957
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: written during the Roman period, such that I can imagine

958
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: again this is not certain. Well, actually I'll say this

959
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: for sure. What we do know for sure is like

960
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: it was a regular part of Roman education that you

961
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: would like invent stories about Diogenes and other kind of

962
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: Greek philosophers Like this is just like you go to

963
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: school and just like write a story about Diogenes doing

964
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 2: this or doing.

965
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: That to express them as a character.

966
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: Exactly right, what's the type of thing he would do? Right,

967
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 2: So it's kind of liked libs in its own way, right,

968
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: where like, okay, we need to tell a story where

969
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: like this is happening. And so I think a lot

970
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: of these kind of stories about Dioshnes are written in

971
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: a context where Romans had disliked, you know, with certain

972
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 2: parts of like Greek conceptions of gender and stuff like that,

973
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: and would kind of put those into the mouth of Diogenes.

974
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: So it's that I think certainly some of it's made

975
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: up later somebody. He may well have said, you know,

976
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 2: so kind of like the example you talked about, like

977
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: the shaving and kind of like oh, you're not a

978
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: real man because you you know, don't have your full

979
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: beard or whatever. Right. I think that one is like

980
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 2: kind of a pretty well Roman I can't remember who

981
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: exactly said that. I can't remember which author wrote that anyway,

982
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: but I have a recollection of that I've had that

983
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: I remember thinking that might have been one that was

984
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: made up later. And we certainly find other accounts of Diogenes.

985
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: We're just just like straight up racist stuff, right, Like

986
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: they're written in the school exercises, like we only find

987
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: them in the school exercises, where it's something where it's

988
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: like super sex is super you know what we say

989
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: call racist, where it's like, you know, Diogenes saw a

990
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: woman giving advice to another woman about a relationship. He says, oh,

991
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: look at viper giving poison to an asp or.

992
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: Something like that.

993
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: Right, Like, this fits well with kind of like later

994
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: Roman values, and at least there's a number of these

995
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 2: stories we can say pretty confidently we're invented later. It

996
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: may not be authentic to Diogenes. This create kind of

997
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: further questions though about like what can we know about

998
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: this historical Diogenes? Right, Like it's right because he's a

999
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: Marvel character at this point. Yeah, it's like you know

1000
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: that Spider Man movie. There's like the three different Spider

1001
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: Man and like which Dioghne is already talking about.

1002
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh interesting.

1003
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: So again, this is not to defend any of those

1004
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: things that are attributed to him, but like, I think

1005
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 2: it's likely he did not say all of them. The

1006
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: part of me that likes Diogenes wants to imagine that

1007
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: a lot of that's just stuff that you know, is

1008
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: like homophobic transphobic, you know, followers invented those and put

1009
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: it in his mouth. But like I undermine my own

1010
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: argument here, but like in same way, like a lot

1011
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: of Christians say, oh, Jesus didn't say this messed up

1012
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: thing about this or that or whatever, So it's it's possible.

1013
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: But like, we don't know a lot of this for certain.

1014
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: I think in some cases we can say these are

1015
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: invented later. I think some of them it's possible. You know,

1016
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: those sorts of mess up things about gender and so on,

1017
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: I think possible that was made up later anyway, But

1018
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: this is my effort to rehabilitate Diogenes here.

1019
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: No, no, this is really interesting to me because he

1020
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: already was a challenge to me about recognizing that like

1021
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: like all this show cool people did cool stuff, and

1022
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: then like by like episode like three, I'm like, it

1023
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: really should be called complicated people who did things that

1024
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: overall I think were positive. You know, like because when

1025
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: we try and expect everyone to be perfect, we're you know,

1026
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: we're not going to create a better world if we

1027
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: say everyone who's done anything wrong can't be part of

1028
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 1: the better world, right, That's not a way to make

1029
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: anything interesting and I think part of it was that

1030
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: Diogenies felt so real to me because I was like,

1031
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: I've like met this guy, like I've met a thousand dirogenesies,

1032
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: and like so I read some modern folks talking about

1033
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: being like he was such a wild character. We have

1034
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: nothing like that today, And I'm like, have you been

1035
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: to a food not bombs feeding?

1036
00:49:59,200 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: Oh?

1037
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: Well, like kind of slightly neurodivergent homeless person who like

1038
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: is really fucking smart and has really good politics about

1039
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 1: eighty percent of stuff and then really incorrect politics about

1040
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 1: twenty percent of stuff.

1041
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's just like super snappy answers to like

1042
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: you say something like they got a quick comeback or

1043
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: everything absolutely right, if you ever hung up by the

1044
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 2: railroad tracks, yeah, and stuff like that. You've met people

1045
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: in many ways like this, right absolutely, and they they.

1046
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: Are kind of awesome. Like to use the trans priestess

1047
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: as an example, to use my own oppression category as

1048
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: the example. You know, people are like, oh, trans women

1049
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: are sort of magical, and there's some people are like, no,

1050
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: we're like everyone else. And I'm like, I don't know, man,

1051
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: maybe we're a little magical. Fuck it, like a little

1052
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: bit crazy a little bit dangerous fuck it, you know.

1053
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: And I think that like the Diogenes character, like yeah,

1054
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: there's like there's something about that guy who like you're

1055
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,479
Speaker 1: walking down the street and some guy tells you something

1056
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: startlingly useful about your life and then says something really

1057
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: annoying and offensive or like keeps talking to you well after,

1058
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, and he's like he really just actually needs

1059
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: a warm place to sleep or whatever. You know. But like,

1060
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, do you have any like final thoughts

1061
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: about antiquity, about your book about people imagining better worlds

1062
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: in the past, or like any final thoughts.

1063
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: I was glad to hear early on you said this

1064
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: kind of fit well with the goals of the podcast.

1065
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 2: And I think for me, a lot of it is

1066
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: like when we think about kind of recovering those interesting

1067
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: parts of history, right, it's not just for the victors,

1068
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 2: it's not just for the white men and so on.

1069
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: I think this book for me came from a place

1070
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: of one, say, you know, what, the left is screwed

1071
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 2: up in some ways on antiquity, and that we're happy

1072
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: to say like oh, like slave owners, it's rich white dudes,

1073
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: it's all that stuff. I think that there's something worth

1074
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: recovering there in its own right, beyond sort of this

1075
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: question about like you know, Elon Muskin, the so called

1076
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: Roman salute that he did that was you know, yeah,

1077
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 2: exactly right, so or kind of this broader appropriation of

1078
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: like antimitious part of like you know, against Karek was here,

1079
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: the Golden Age, the white Man that we all from

1080
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: finding racist groups kind of appropriating the past. I think

1081
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: that there's genuinely stuff, even on taking it away from

1082
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 2: those kind of nefarious elements of our society, that like,

1083
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 2: there's stuff that's genuinely interesting there. It can provide food

1084
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: for thought. And this is what I would hope people

1085
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: would come away from these sort of you know, your

1086
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: previous episodes about Diosnes and thury I and Spartakiss and

1087
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: hopefully this set of interviews to there. So those be

1088
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: kind of my final thoughts on this right, that there's

1089
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: something there, and I think it's important to not to

1090
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 2: sort of let you know, these racist elements of society

1091
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: claim it is their own anyway.

1092
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: I love that one of my favorite things in the

1093
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: world is taking cultural ground away from fascists. Yeah, absolutely,

1094
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: or at the very least not seeding it like I'm

1095
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: in a black metal band, Like I can't just let

1096
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: Nazis have that fuck them, or like the romantic ideas

1097
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: of the rural past is complicated and you should always

1098
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 1: side eye someone who talks about how all of these things.

1099
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: But also there's into Euphrygia or the black desert and like,

1100
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: you know these things, and so yeah, I really appreciate

1101
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: you doing the work of not letting them own the

1102
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: past because they try to colonize it.

1103
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, Margaret. I've really enjoyed the conversation.

1104
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: Really appreciate Yeah, the work.

1105
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: Well, what's the name of your book and where can

1106
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: people get it?

1107
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 2: Sure? So the name of the book is Red gal Antiquity, Freelove, Zoroastrians, Farming,

1108
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: Pirates and Ancient Uprisings. It's out from Pluto Press. Came

1109
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 2: out twenty twenty five, wherever you can order. Books should

1110
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: available through independent bookstores ordinate their audiobooks should be available

1111
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 2: pretty soon two if it's not already. And yeah, thank

1112
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: you once again for having me on here.

1113
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: Yep, thank you cool people who did cool stuff as

1114
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool.

1115
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: Zone Media, visit our website at goal zonemedia dot com,

1116
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1117
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 2: or wherever

1118
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: You get your podcasts.