WEBVTT - How a $25 million shopping mall shows why Congo has no National ID System

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>The ability to prove your ID for a bank account

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<v Speaker 2>or for public services may be taken for granted in

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<v Speaker 2>much of the world, but many countries still lack this

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<v Speaker 2>basic infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 3>For about a billion people on the planet, there is

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<v Speaker 3>no idea. They don't have anything that identifies them. Not

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<v Speaker 3>an easy problem to solve, but technology is coming in

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<v Speaker 3>the picture and things are moving really quickly. The Prime Minister,

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<v Speaker 3>give us a sense. Don't give us just one reason.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a big enough. I should give us two reasons,

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<v Speaker 3>two reasons why it is essential that digital IDs are

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<v Speaker 3>the top of your agenda in your country.

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<v Speaker 2>It's seen as so important that it's actually a part

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<v Speaker 2>of the un sustainable development goals.

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<v Speaker 1>For the government of the DRC. Access to citizens' rights

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<v Speaker 1>is a key aim to enable this. Proper population registry

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<v Speaker 1>and the guarantee of a unique legal identity are.

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<v Speaker 2>Essential, but the push for complicated biometric ID systems has

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<v Speaker 2>meant expensive contracts in some of the poorest countries in

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<v Speaker 2>the world, leaving the door open to corruption. On today's podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll explain how a twenty five million dollar shopping center

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<v Speaker 2>in the DRC's second city, shows why the country still

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<v Speaker 2>has no ID system and how money that was supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to fund it may have ended up benefiting only a

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<v Speaker 2>few I'm Jennifer's abasadjab and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

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<v Speaker 2>the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 2>can provide. This investigation is a partnership between Bloomberg and

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<v Speaker 2>Lighthouse Reports reporter Thomas Statias, who's been working on this

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<v Speaker 2>story and he is joining us this week.

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<v Speaker 4>So Thomas, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a really fascinating story and there's so

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<v Speaker 2>many different layers to it. But maybe before we get

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<v Speaker 2>to the crux of the story, which is this ID

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<v Speaker 2>card project that was turned into a shopping center, let's

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<v Speaker 2>maybe take a step back and get some of the history.

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<v Speaker 2>What's been behind the push for biometric ideas in Congo

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<v Speaker 2>and other African countries, and also what made you interested

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<v Speaker 2>in wanting to look into this.

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<v Speaker 5>The behind the scenes story of the push on biometrics

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<v Speaker 5>starts like more or less ten years ago, when two

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<v Speaker 5>institutions the UN published something called the Sustainable Development Goals,

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<v Speaker 5>which are like the goals that the UN and humanity

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<v Speaker 5>was to achieve by twenty thirty, and one of his

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<v Speaker 5>goals is actually for any individual on the planet to

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<v Speaker 5>have a certain ID card and a certain identity defined

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<v Speaker 5>by the States. And around the same time, essentially the

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<v Speaker 5>World Bank, another multi electural institution, essentially start to push

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<v Speaker 5>also for the same goal, but with the addition of

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<v Speaker 5>a technology called the biometric technology, which is so to speak,

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<v Speaker 5>everything that makes you unique as a person, so your fingerprint,

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<v Speaker 5>your iris, your behavior and so on. So those two

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<v Speaker 5>elements combined create a real gold rush for vendors that

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<v Speaker 5>are mostly Western vendors, a lot of those of French,

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<v Speaker 5>German and event from the US to go to this

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<v Speaker 5>new market, which is the continent, the African continent, to

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<v Speaker 5>try and sell this technology to those countries. As for

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<v Speaker 5>the reason we wanted to get interested in that. In

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<v Speaker 5>this fatnonership between Bloomberg and Lighthouse Reports, the investigative out

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<v Speaker 5>that I'm working with is essentially there's a technoli solutionism narrative.

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<v Speaker 6>Behind biometric technology.

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<v Speaker 5>There's beside that technology can fix everything, it can fix election,

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<v Speaker 5>it can fix unbalanced states, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 6>And this narrative is actually quite powerful.

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<v Speaker 5>So we wanted to have a look at behind what's

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<v Speaker 5>happening in some of the most extreme situations that we

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<v Speaker 5>can find.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, and this is very extreme for people who get

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<v Speaker 2>a chance to read it. So then let's get to

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<v Speaker 2>maybe Congo, right, because this is the country that you

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<v Speaker 2>focus on. What was the existing ID system that was

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<v Speaker 2>there when you and the team started looking into this.

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<v Speaker 5>Essentially, when we started to have a look at Congo,

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<v Speaker 5>there are no kind of let's say, general identification system

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<v Speaker 5>as we know it in some of other country, whether

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<v Speaker 5>it's Southeast Asia, whether it's.

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<v Speaker 6>Western Europe, whether it's North America.

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<v Speaker 5>So in Congo, when we start to look at the system,

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<v Speaker 5>there are no functioning idea, meaning people did not have

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<v Speaker 5>driving licenses, the state has no idea how many citizens

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<v Speaker 5>lived in Congo.

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<v Speaker 6>The last census was performed in.

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<v Speaker 5>Nineteen eighty four, so at the time the country was

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<v Speaker 5>called Zaiah and the head of the state was someone

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<v Speaker 5>that's actually I'm sure people listening to this podcast you

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<v Speaker 5>know quite well whose name was Mobutu se Seco. So

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<v Speaker 5>it was like forty years ago and essentially the only

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<v Speaker 5>kind of identification that people have in day to day life.

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<v Speaker 6>Or voting calls, but voting call are no proof.

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<v Speaker 5>Of identity because essentially you can say whatever names you

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<v Speaker 5>want to put on your voter cards because there is

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<v Speaker 5>no unique identification system. So that was the starting pot

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<v Speaker 5>from the investigation and along all those kinds of ideas

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<v Speaker 5>that are not working properly in Congo. Congo had for

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<v Speaker 5>a couple of years one of the most expensive passports

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<v Speaker 5>in the world that costs one hundred eighty five dollars

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<v Speaker 5>each passport essentially.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's one of the ten poorest countries in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>So that seems like a contradiction.

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<v Speaker 5>It is a contradiction, but it is also a very

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<v Speaker 5>important market. The last census in the RC stated that

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<v Speaker 5>RC was populated of twenty million people. The protection by

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<v Speaker 5>the UN state that you will be one of the

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<v Speaker 5>giants of the African continent by twenty fifty and right

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<v Speaker 5>now the population is estimated around one million inhabitants in Congo.

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<v Speaker 6>So it is quite a big market for tho the vendors.

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<v Speaker 5>So it is quite a hussle for all those company

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<v Speaker 5>to try to set shop in the country, and there's

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<v Speaker 5>a lot of money to be made, which is.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps how you know we're at the situation now and

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<v Speaker 2>Tomas I thought it was really interesting in the story.

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<v Speaker 2>How you know that the fact that we mentioned this

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<v Speaker 2>in the intro, some people take advantage of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that they have ideas, right, But in Congo, you noted

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<v Speaker 2>that Congolese people feel like foreigners in their own country.

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<v Speaker 6>They are they feel their offerings, but they're offerings.

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<v Speaker 5>As I said, there is no kind of notification and

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<v Speaker 5>it makes very concrete stuff for day to day lives

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<v Speaker 5>for the people working, for instance, in the University of Kinshasa.

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<v Speaker 5>It means they cannot check Casher check. It means they

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<v Speaker 5>cannot send money abroad or they cannot receive money from abroad.

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<v Speaker 5>I remember meeting this guy around the community center in

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<v Speaker 5>Kinshasa telling me that he was having an interview for

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<v Speaker 5>a job to be a pull attendant at the US Embassy.

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<v Speaker 5>That if he doesn't have any kind of identifications, you

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<v Speaker 5>won't be hired. Even more, you won't be authorized to

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<v Speaker 5>go into the building because security people from the embassy

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<v Speaker 5>would not let someone in that their identity is not certain.

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<v Speaker 5>So it means very concrete stuff you know, for day

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<v Speaker 5>to day life from congol citizen and this situation has

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<v Speaker 5>been going on for for the years. It also means

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<v Speaker 5>a lot of consequences for the government. How do you

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<v Speaker 5>live itacks, How do you know who owns which house?

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<v Speaker 5>How do you send the sign to someone who are

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<v Speaker 5>a spedding ticket to someone who's done some stuff dangerous

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<v Speaker 5>on the road. It's impossible if you do not know

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<v Speaker 5>the identity of the population. And that's been the situation

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<v Speaker 5>for the last forty years.

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<v Speaker 2>So that gets to the opportunity then that an ID

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<v Speaker 2>system could present. And then this additional layer of biometric

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<v Speaker 2>databases which you were mentioning they're expensive. We talked about

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<v Speaker 2>how Congo is one of the poorest countries in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>What was the plan here, What was it that was

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<v Speaker 2>being pitched?

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<v Speaker 5>What was being pitched the time is that essentially an

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<v Speaker 5>ID system costs a lot of money and supposibly the

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<v Speaker 5>ideas for FORI it to be very well spread among

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<v Speaker 5>the population. It needs to be cheap because as you say,

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<v Speaker 5>Congo is one of the ten poorest country in the world.

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<v Speaker 5>You need to have incentive for people to register and

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<v Speaker 5>so on. That the idea at first by this Belgian

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<v Speaker 5>company called Semlex, where the time approached former ARC President

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<v Speaker 5>Joseph Cabina. The idea was that a very expensive passport

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<v Speaker 5>one hundred and eighty five dollars aimed to the Congolese elite,

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<v Speaker 5>to the elite that's still traveling on a monthly basis

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<v Speaker 5>essentially that needs passport over and over the years, will

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<v Speaker 5>pay for the expensive ID project for normal let's say

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<v Speaker 5>congole Is citizens. That was being pitched in early twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 5>and that's what tried to develop around like the next month,

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<v Speaker 5>where two contracts essentially made their way through the administrative

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<v Speaker 5>system of Congolme State in Peril. One was for the

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<v Speaker 5>ID card, one was for the passport. But in the

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<v Speaker 5>end it's only the passport contract that went further that

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<v Speaker 5>was actually the passport were created and were delivered to

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<v Speaker 5>the congol citizen. And not to mention that deal, the

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<v Speaker 5>passport deal is currently investigated by the prosecutor in Belgium

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<v Speaker 5>over corruption allegation.

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<v Speaker 4>So then what went wrong?

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<v Speaker 6>What went wrong is.

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<v Speaker 5>Essentially, according to two sources that were very familiar with

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<v Speaker 5>this deal, is like the money intended to be used

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<v Speaker 5>to finance the ID card through different financial mechanism was

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<v Speaker 5>let's say not being rooted to that purposes and being

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<v Speaker 5>re rooted to people close to the Kabila family within different.

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<v Speaker 6>Ways, let's say. And one of that way that we

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<v Speaker 6>uncovers for the first time in that story.

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<v Speaker 5>Is the money was used to leverage a loan to

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<v Speaker 5>finance the construction of a big shopping center called Ichnos

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<v Speaker 5>in Lubumbashi. Bubumbashi is the second city of the R

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<v Speaker 5>seats in the east spouts of the R s in

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<v Speaker 5>the mining region of Katanga.

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<v Speaker 6>It's the main city of Katanga.

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<v Speaker 5>And this building, which is a brand new, super technological,

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<v Speaker 5>expensive building according to our source, it was built thanks

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<v Speaker 5>to the money from the that was originally intended to

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<v Speaker 5>be used for the idical project.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, stick with us, Thomas. When we come back,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll look at how ten years on, Congo still hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>managed to set up an ID system.

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<v Speaker 4>We'll be right back. So welcome back.

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Statiez is still with us, and we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>his deep dive investigation into Congo's failed attempts to develop

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<v Speaker 2>a national ID system. Thomas, thanks so much for sticking

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<v Speaker 2>with us through this pod. So there still isn't an

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<v Speaker 2>ID system, which you go into great detail about in

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<v Speaker 2>your reporting. Is the government even trying to get there?

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<v Speaker 2>Where are the plans at this point?

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<v Speaker 6>It's interesting because it's the goal.

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<v Speaker 5>The fact that the president announced very earlier on after

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<v Speaker 5>being elected that he will put out an ID system

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<v Speaker 5>is like a constant in the ten past years of

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<v Speaker 5>history of Congo. So when Felis Tshikeedi, the current president

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<v Speaker 5>of years, he was elected after very contestic election in

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<v Speaker 5>twenty nineteen, he promised very early on that he will

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<v Speaker 5>have an ID system like set up and so on,

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<v Speaker 5>and that's what happens.

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<v Speaker 6>Over the past four years. An attempt to again create

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<v Speaker 6>this side the cut.

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<v Speaker 5>System with the difficulty that we talked about previously in

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<v Speaker 5>this podcast. The government signed one of the most expensive

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<v Speaker 5>biometric deal in the history of Africa with the French

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<v Speaker 5>Bender and Malian partner for one point two billion dollars

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<v Speaker 5>and the contract again is suspected to be of a price.

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<v Speaker 5>The Finance WATCHDOB of Congo found a lot of irregularities

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<v Speaker 5>in the whole financing structure, let's say, of the program.

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<v Speaker 5>So once again the promises to have this ideical that

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<v Speaker 5>was made to the Congolist cities and very early on

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<v Speaker 5>by President Shikedi is not fulfilled and we likely not

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<v Speaker 5>be fulfilled in the next month. And what we can

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<v Speaker 5>fear is because there were some idicals that were produced

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<v Speaker 5>and given to a couple of Congolist VIPs, that this

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<v Speaker 5>idical will become like an object of collection of very

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<v Speaker 5>wealthy Congolist people. Because at the time, as far as

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<v Speaker 5>i'm our sources go, we know there's roughly one thousand

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<v Speaker 5>idical that were produced over this one point two billion

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<v Speaker 5>dollar contract.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow Tomas, when you went there, I mean, what is

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<v Speaker 2>the reaction on the ground, especially you outline that some

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<v Speaker 2>of the funds you founded the report were ciphoned to

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<v Speaker 2>this new mall.

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<v Speaker 4>What do is citizens say there?

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<v Speaker 5>I would say, any situation is not black and white, right,

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<v Speaker 5>there is a sense that this pattern of like misuse

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<v Speaker 5>of money is like an ongoing situation and never ending

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<v Speaker 5>situation in congost But I would say that people are

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<v Speaker 5>very tired also of like this corruption scheme, but also

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<v Speaker 5>tired of something else, tired of the whole framing of

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<v Speaker 5>let's say corruption as an African problem. Corruption in a

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<v Speaker 5>sense is also a problem of some of those companies

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<v Speaker 5>that are coming and are participating in those essentially scheme.

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<v Speaker 6>This is a two way stuff.

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<v Speaker 5>It's not only and solely an African government problem. There's

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<v Speaker 5>another investigation at least in France for instance, ongoing on

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<v Speaker 5>another vendor part of a very big group for corruption

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:36.319
<v Speaker 5>allegation in Africa. So hopefully, like those the investigations, we

0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.320
<v Speaker 5>instead the records straight, proving that it's not only an

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<v Speaker 5>African problem, but also like due diligence and a good

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<v Speaker 5>practices that those company needs to have when they're working

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<v Speaker 5>in large government tendering process.

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<v Speaker 2>And as you mentioned, Congolese people are still waiting as

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<v Speaker 2>this procect carries on. Tomas, thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>joining us. It's a really fascinating report, really well done

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<v Speaker 2>by you and the team, and we want to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure everybody knows that you can read his investigation on

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg right now and we are going to put a link.

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<v Speaker 4>In the show notes. Thank you so much to us.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank you, Jennifer.

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<v Speaker 2>And as Tamas noted, ID systems in much of the

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<v Speaker 2>world are considered a basic right as citizens.

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<v Speaker 4>Without it, as the World Bank says, people.

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<v Speaker 2>Can be left feeling like foreigners in their own country.

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<v Speaker 2>As we approach the UN's twenty thirty Sustainable Development Goal target.

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<v Speaker 4>We'll watch to see what progress is actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Being made in granting people the ability to obtain a

0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 2>legal identity and how that then affects their countries and

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<v Speaker 2>their public officials. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley.

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Don't forget to follow and review this podcast wherever you

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<v Speaker 2>usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja. Thanks as always

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<v Speaker 2>for listening