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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three

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Speaker 1: twenty nine and today in the show, I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: renowned conservation writer Hal Herring to discuss public land history

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Speaker 1: and advocacy, wilderness, and an in depth look at my

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Speaker 1: book That Wild Country. All right, welcome to the Wired

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Speaker 1: Hunt Podcast, brought to you by Onyx, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the New Year. To Happy new year to all of

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Speaker 1: you my friends. Today we've got a special episode in

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Speaker 1: which I am not the host, I am actually the guest.

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Speaker 1: How's that going to work? Well? I was recently interviewed

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Speaker 1: on the back Country Hunters and Anglers podcast also known

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Speaker 1: as the b h A podcast and Blast, which is

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Speaker 1: hosted by a steamed conservation writer, hunter, and angler, Hale Herring.

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Speaker 1: He hosts the podcast and you might also know him

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Speaker 1: as a longtime writer for Field and Stream. He just

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Speaker 1: does great work and he was kind enough to read

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Speaker 1: my book That Wild Country recently and invite me on

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Speaker 1: their podcast to discuss it. Now. I know you've all

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Speaker 1: heard me talk about my book on the podcast. Over

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Speaker 1: the past couple of weeks or months, I've asked you

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Speaker 1: to buy it. I've given you the cliff notes version

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Speaker 1: of what it's all about. But at least on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we haven't really gone in depth unto

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Speaker 1: We haven't any kind of real discussion about the book.

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Speaker 1: I just kind of told you, Hey, I wrote this book.

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Speaker 1: It's called That Wild Country. It's about the history of

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Speaker 1: public lands and my own journeys, blah blah blah. But

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Speaker 1: we really haven't had any deep discussion on the themes

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Speaker 1: of the book or the lessons I learned about public

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Speaker 1: lands along the way, or the process of writing it,

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Speaker 1: or you know, any of the details about this whole

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Speaker 1: topic of public land history and politics because an advocacy,

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Speaker 1: or any of my adventures or or hunts or trips

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Speaker 1: or anything that went on as part of this book.

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Speaker 1: We haven't gone into any of that yet. And I

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Speaker 1: think maybe I'm biased here, but I think that's some

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Speaker 1: really interesting stuff. And fortunately Hale wanted to discuss all

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Speaker 1: of that and more on the b h A podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I just think it was such a good conversation

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Speaker 1: that we needed to share it here on Wired Hunt

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Speaker 1: as well. So that's what you're about to hear. You're

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Speaker 1: about to hear an excerpt from the back Country Hunters

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Speaker 1: and English podcast with Halis host and me as guest.

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Speaker 1: And this is obviously gonna be a little bit different,

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Speaker 1: but I think you're really gonna enjoy it. If you've

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Speaker 1: read the book already, I think this is going to

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Speaker 1: give you a really interesting new behind the scenes look

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Speaker 1: at how the book came together and what I was

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Speaker 1: trying to achieve with it, and and maybe give you

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Speaker 1: more in depth understanding um of of what it all meant.

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Speaker 1: And then if you haven't read the book yet, my

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Speaker 1: hope is that this conversation is going to help you

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Speaker 1: better to decide if it's something you want to check

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Speaker 1: out at all. So I do think if you love

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Speaker 1: to hunt, or fish, or hiker camp or recreate on

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Speaker 1: public lands of any kind, this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a podcast for you. And if that also describes you

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Speaker 1: at all, you should also strongly consider joining back Country

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Speaker 1: Hunters and Anglers. They are one of the absolute most

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Speaker 1: influential conversation not well, they're granted conversations, but they are

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Speaker 1: also an influential conservation organization, one of the most influential

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Speaker 1: out there in the country today fighting on behalf of

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Speaker 1: public lands and waters. And you know our rights to

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Speaker 1: hunt and fish and and explore these places. So I

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Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in the fight to protect these places.

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Speaker 1: And I think by tapping into b h A, it's

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Speaker 1: a great place and a great way to start. So

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Speaker 1: with all that said, let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: then we will hop over to my interview on the

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Speaker 1: b h A podcast and Blast with Hal Herring. Enjoy,

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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome back, or welcome here if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been here before. Thanks for coming. Just a country

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Speaker 1: Hunters and nine podcast and blast um on how Herring

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Speaker 1: and I am in Bozeman, Montana. Today I caught up

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Speaker 1: with Mark Kenyon, who has a podcast of Wired Hunt

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Speaker 1: and has just written a remarkable book that I've had

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Speaker 1: in my hands for a month or so. Um, I

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Speaker 1: reread it for I read it once fast and reread

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Speaker 1: it once slow for this interview, and UM, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: super pleased to be able to turn people onto it

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Speaker 1: because um we'll talk about how how powerful I think

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Speaker 1: it is. But Mark, first you, uh, thanks for doing

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Speaker 1: this for one thing, thanks, thanks for being here, but

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Speaker 1: thanks for writing that book. It's called That Wild Country. Um,

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Speaker 1: will you identify yourself just a little bit? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Mark Kenyon here, Like he said, I wrote That

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Speaker 1: Wild Country. But previous to that, I've ran a website

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Speaker 1: in a podcast called Wired Hunt, which as of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eighteen I think is also part of Mediator's

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Speaker 1: network now too. Um so yeah, I've been writing first

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Speaker 1: for digital stuff, then for most of the Honey magazines,

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Speaker 1: and then for me to do myself and launch the

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Speaker 1: podcast then in two thousand and fourteen, and was doing

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Speaker 1: all that full time for a few years, um, until

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Speaker 1: I got to this point right in the book. So, um, well,

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Speaker 1: Hunter Angler love to do just about anything outside and

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Speaker 1: you're a Michigan or by birthright Michigan or by birth

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Speaker 1: visitor of the West by my passion is yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: and in a book it's like it's like a grand

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Speaker 1: tour of the of the West too, and um, which

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Speaker 1: is which we'll talk about like the how how that

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Speaker 1: works in the book. But it is like a grand

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Speaker 1: tour and um it's one one and and you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's an everyman's tour too. There's nothing in this book

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Speaker 1: that you do that anybody in the United States can't

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Speaker 1: settle up an old ford and go do which is

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Speaker 1: really really cool. Um, but you came this, you're you're

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Speaker 1: a white tail hunter first, right, Yep, that was what

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Speaker 1: we kind of grew up on. We hunted a little

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Speaker 1: forty acre piece that my grandpa bought five which was

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Speaker 1: surrounded on two sides by public land. So I grew

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Speaker 1: up going to our deer camp up north and then

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Speaker 1: trudging across the public got you looking for big woods bucks?

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Speaker 1: And uh is that Upper Peninsular or Northern Michigan or

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Speaker 1: northern Lower And uh the bridge? Yes, below the bridge?

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Speaker 1: When when when Jim Harrison stuff started coming out a

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Speaker 1: lot um my friends and honor in Alabama, and we'd

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Speaker 1: never you know, we need I've never been to Michigan.

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Speaker 1: In the first place I ever went to Michigan was

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Speaker 1: Kalamazoo as a grown man. But my friends, but you

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Speaker 1: know what they call those people? And I said, what's

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Speaker 1: that troll? Yeah, because they live below the route. That's

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Speaker 1: that's that's super cool. That's pretty fun. But yeah, Michigander

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Speaker 1: And grew up hunting deer and fishing for perch. And

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Speaker 1: walleye and pike and bass and all that trolling around

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Speaker 1: the lakes of western side of the state. And I

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Speaker 1: did a little bit of hike and camp and exploring

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Speaker 1: along the way to And did you start out when

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Speaker 1: you were young all this? Yeah, I mean I think

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Speaker 1: I was in the blind with my dad at age

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Speaker 1: three or four. Um, it's an interesting thing. We were

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Speaker 1: very Um my family was really into hunting and fishing

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Speaker 1: from the cultural side, Like we identified as hunters and anglers,

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Speaker 1: like that was the thing get together for a family

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Speaker 1: get together. As we're all sitting there talking about unting fishing. Um.

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Speaker 1: But we never the family before, we never took it

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Speaker 1: so far as to really go deep into strategy or

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Speaker 1: really go so far as start going out west or anything.

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Speaker 1: So we we forever the family loved to hunt, love

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Speaker 1: to fish, but it was always you did what you

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Speaker 1: always did, went and sat next to a tree or

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Speaker 1: you know, walked out and you found a rub and

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Speaker 1: you sat down. That's what you did. So that is

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Speaker 1: was the extent of my hunting education until I kind

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Speaker 1: of went off on my own and then had to

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Speaker 1: self educated to take things to the next level. But

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Speaker 1: it developed this really foundational passion was really the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing I got from my family. Well that's a really

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Speaker 1: to me that that. Actually the South is somewhat like

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Speaker 1: that too, but that's im Indwestern thing where it's it's everybody.

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Speaker 1: Some of the best fishermen and hunters I know have

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Speaker 1: come out of the Midwest and it's and it's they've

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Speaker 1: they've been there, They've been unquestioned in this pursuit like

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Speaker 1: since babyhood, you know. Um And and that's not to

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Speaker 1: say that all of them don't take it to that

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Speaker 1: other level too, they do. You run into them all

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Speaker 1: over the place. But um, yeah, that's pretty interesting. And

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Speaker 1: I can relate to that from growing up where people

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Speaker 1: just went to the deer stand. It was very much uh,

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Speaker 1: it just steeped in tradition. You know. It was the

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Speaker 1: cabin go to deer campuses, no power, no water, just

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Speaker 1: go out their propane lanterns and just getting away from

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Speaker 1: it all. It is almost just about going to this.

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Speaker 1: It was a pilgrimage to this place where your friends

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Speaker 1: and family came back together every year, and and and

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Speaker 1: so much the revolves around that. But I remember at

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Speaker 1: age you know, six and seven, and nine and ten,

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Speaker 1: the thing I would always want to do is I

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Speaker 1: to go and stand out underneath the buck pool. You'd

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Speaker 1: hang the deer there, shot tongue in the buck pool,

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Speaker 1: and I I would just stand there staring at him, thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: what an animal. Where Someday I want to head off

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Speaker 1: into the woods on my own and be able to

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Speaker 1: do that. And uh, and so y'all had some success there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we had success, relatively limited um and and

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Speaker 1: decline over the years, actually just dear populations plummeting in

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Speaker 1: the two thousand's part of the state, but put enough

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Speaker 1: success to keep me interested as a kid, um to

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Speaker 1: really just fill my imagination. Yeah, it's incredible to marvel

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Speaker 1: at that. And I'm old enough to remember when they

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Speaker 1: first came back to North Alabama and they were just

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Speaker 1: our idea of everything that ought to be out there

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Speaker 1: in the woods. But yeah, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're like they're like they made the woods. I remember

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Speaker 1: my Civics teacher who's helped me a lot in hunting

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Speaker 1: and stuff, he said, you know, it just it just

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Speaker 1: blows my mind that there's these there's these big woods

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Speaker 1: left and there's these big old out there in it

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Speaker 1: just living their own lives. Well, what how lonely or

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Speaker 1: tragic would it be to have a place like that

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Speaker 1: without those big hands? Yeah, yeah, it wouldn't It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: feel right, right, you bet. I was thinking about them, like, um,

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Speaker 1: Peter Matthias and I think when he wrote Wildlife in

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Speaker 1: America he talked about that great American silence and then

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Speaker 1: like and how it probably it wasn't silent on the

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Speaker 1: Great Plains you you know, pre Columbus it was it

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Speaker 1: was an uproar. Yeah, I can't I'm sure so many

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Speaker 1: people have said this over the previous hundred fifty years,

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Speaker 1: but I can't help but just wonder and imagine and

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Speaker 1: dream about what that must have been. Like I go

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Speaker 1: back to the Journal's list and Clark every once in a

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Speaker 1: a while, just to just to think about that or not.

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Speaker 1: I go to Great Falls, Montana, a lot that's like

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Speaker 1: our supply town, and I'll go down and it it's

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Speaker 1: all damned up, the falls and stuff like that. And

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Speaker 1: someday I hope it'll run free. Maybe they could replace

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Speaker 1: the power with a flow through or something. But um,

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Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time on the river there,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I think about that all the time. It's

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Speaker 1: like there's areas there where there were so many buffalo

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Speaker 1: that died crossing the ice that the water would be

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Speaker 1: contaminated way downstream. And then wolves and dozens and dozens

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Speaker 1: just eating all the kid and we were thinking about, um,

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Speaker 1: pishkin is pishkin is? Uh? I think it's black Feet

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Speaker 1: for a buffalo jump, and um, Montana is a little

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Speaker 1: town there on the Missouri and it has an enormous

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Speaker 1: buffalo jump and an incredible state park there and and

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Speaker 1: I mean anybody who wants to is coming through Great

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Speaker 1: Hell into the Great Falls on a trip, it would

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Speaker 1: be checked well advised to stop. And uh, that place

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Speaker 1: we were we were imagined when they this was pre bow,

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Speaker 1: mostly pre horse, and um, when that was rocking, when

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Speaker 1: they're running those buffalo over that and the little kids

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Speaker 1: are hiding with the they have these these hides they

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Speaker 1: put up to startle the buffalo, and when that was rocking,

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Speaker 1: we were thinking, like every grizzly, every eagle, every wolf,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean imagine what the scene was. And

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Speaker 1: then all the people because they just moved there until

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Speaker 1: they had it all processed. Yeah, unimaginable carrying a city

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Speaker 1: and knives that are made from stuff that's uh it's

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Speaker 1: quarry done to yellowstone carried. Yeah. I just read an

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Speaker 1: interesting book examining, um, you know, the Clovis and fulsome

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Speaker 1: cultures and kind of everything that's going on during the

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Speaker 1: plato Seen area and uh, just talking about how how

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Speaker 1: so many of the tools were imported in from very

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Speaker 1: specific places. They would make pilgrimages to different places, to

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Speaker 1: to Knife Lake in northern Minnesota, a certain type of stone,

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Speaker 1: and from to this location, this location that you see

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Speaker 1: them coalescing certain regions where then all the people came

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Speaker 1: to for these Yeah, just really interesting. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a quarry at Montana City near Helena that that is.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's as old as anybody can date back.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's changing those dates. Now there's ten thousand years ago,

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Speaker 1: and then they're going, wow, this is twelve you know.

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Speaker 1: But stuff, it's it's incredible stuff. And and if nobody

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Speaker 1: has ever if anybody's never seen the Clovis stuff, they're

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Speaker 1: huge them in person. There's some in the museum in

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Speaker 1: Helena that um that and they're big. They're for chopping

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Speaker 1: like Mamma sat John Sloss dis Yeah, and they're the

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Speaker 1: only art that survives is this. They took these multi

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Speaker 1: colored stones and they chipped them. They had somebody who

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Speaker 1: was an insane artisan, you know, and they would and

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Speaker 1: they had these multi colored bands in the stone and

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Speaker 1: and we don't know what their art was, but clearly

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Speaker 1: this was their art because they put it in the

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Speaker 1: burial site on Um. It's called by Ansick Site up

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Speaker 1: by will Saul, Montana. And there's a there's these two

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Speaker 1: children buried in that and they're covered with red ochre

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Speaker 1: and they have like the best of the best choppers

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Speaker 1: and and scrape. Wonder what the what their status was

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Speaker 1: or what warder than that kind of Yeah, somebody found

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Speaker 1: him like looking for hunting gravel with a front inloader. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's nice. It's pretty country, Pally, It's always been pretty

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Speaker 1: beautiful valley. So Um as a Michigan or you you

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Speaker 1: started coming west obviously in this book you started like

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Speaker 1: like twelve year what you came with as a kid, Right,

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Speaker 1: We did two trips west as a child when I

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Speaker 1: was I don't remember, it was like six or seven

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Speaker 1: or seven or eight, and then one more like two

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Speaker 1: years later. Um. One trip we did the northwest. We

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Speaker 1: hit Mount Rainier National Park, Northern North Cascades and Olympia Olympics. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: and then the second was to Glacier and those just

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Speaker 1: became foundational in my childhood imagination. We never went back.

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Speaker 1: I wish we had, but I think families got busy

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Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. As you you're got

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Speaker 1: a toddler, yes, yes, you've got tyler now. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not easy, but but that had this, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's just lingered in me forever so ever.

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Speaker 1: Since then, I always dreamed of going back, of wanting

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Speaker 1: to get into this big wild country doing doing something

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Speaker 1: above and beyond what I did growing up, which was

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Speaker 1: fun but relatively domestic hunting and fishing kind of adventure,

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Speaker 1: to go out to the lake with the boat, that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. Everything you grow up with seems domestic. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so yeah. It wasn't until I actually, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of went off on my own and finished off

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Speaker 1: the craziness of college that I started making my own

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Speaker 1: pilgrimages out west, and uh did the first one to

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Speaker 1: the three week trip when I was heading out towards

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Speaker 1: my full time job in California that I I took out

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Speaker 1: of college, and we took took three weeks to go

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Speaker 1: and experience these things, and and that's when I realized, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this is I mean as as anyone who was done

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Speaker 1: that same trip or experienced that same thing comes to understand,

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Speaker 1: this is something really special. And ever since then, I've

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Speaker 1: been trying to and more and more time of my

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Speaker 1: year exploring public clans out west. And I've gotten to

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Speaker 1: very lucky with my career that I get to spend

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Speaker 1: significant my time for a Midwestern at least. And what

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Speaker 1: did you study in college? Marketing business? Um? And took

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Speaker 1: a job working for a tech company doing online advertising

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Speaker 1: and marketing. Um. That was That's where it started from.

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Speaker 1: And uh, there's a that's a great part of the book. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's your personal journey. Like where you said,

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Speaker 1: like that's that was great, but but you wanted something

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Speaker 1: different at some point you took a big risk. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So so coming out of college, I had I had

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Speaker 1: a little bit And and you tell me if this

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Speaker 1: is not what you want to talk about, because I

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Speaker 1: could get rambling if I'm not careful, but I'll try

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Speaker 1: to make as shure as I possibly can. I thought

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get into business and be this big businessman,

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Speaker 1: took an internship in New York City, realized that's not

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Speaker 1: what I wanted. Couldn't hunt, it, couldn't fish, couldn't get

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Speaker 1: outside of to do the things I want to do.

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Speaker 1: So I said, okay, there's I've got to find a

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Speaker 1: way to to to link my passion for the outdoors

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Speaker 1: with what I do. But then my last year of college,

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Speaker 1: I got wooed by by everything that is Google. This

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Speaker 1: company came in and I was seduced by the allure

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Speaker 1: of working for a company like that, which which ended

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Speaker 1: up being great. But so I took that job and

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Speaker 1: ignored what I learned the previous summer. But immediately upon

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Speaker 1: getting out to Califord, you ignored what you learned in

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Speaker 1: New York City exactly. Yeah, So I told myself, I

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Speaker 1: will I'm gonna work somehow related the outdoors or Google,

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Speaker 1: because Google just didn't say no to that. And so

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Speaker 1: I got that job, and um, immediately they'll that fall.

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Speaker 1: I'm working in Mountain View, California, at the headquarters there,

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Speaker 1: and right away I felt that claustrophobia again. I felt

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Speaker 1: that just lack of oxygen. And so it was I

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Speaker 1: don't remember October probably two thousand nine, and I read

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Speaker 1: a book. I went to Barnes and Noble and was

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Speaker 1: looking for books and I found this book was called

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Speaker 1: Crush It and it was all about combining your passion

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Speaker 1: with um with your vocation someday and I, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: closed the book and I said, that's what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: And I started right then working on this thing that

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Speaker 1: became Weird Hunt. And I said, I'm not gonna stop

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Speaker 1: working on this until I'm able to do this for

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Speaker 1: a living in for my life. And uh, and that

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Speaker 1: led me to where I am now. And this is

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Speaker 1: probably not six training is type. But did you know

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Speaker 1: about podcast and then that early? Um, I was aware

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Speaker 1: of podcasting, but I actually listened to a couple of

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Speaker 1: podcasts back then. I remember Um Peterson's Bow Hunting had

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Speaker 1: a podcast at that point that early, and then there's

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Speaker 1: another one called bow Cast I think, so I was

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Speaker 1: listening to those back then. Um, but I didn't. I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize that I should create my own for several years.

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Speaker 1: But actually it was the the tools of the resources

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Speaker 1: that helped me the most to build my own company

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Speaker 1: and my own brand and allowed me to take that

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Speaker 1: stepping stone or that that jump off the cliff. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was podcast. I was listening to all these entrepreneurial

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Speaker 1: podcasts and things, and that kind of gave me the um,

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Speaker 1: the skill set and the confidence that while people are

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Speaker 1: doing this, that's the thing you can do. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then yeah, so I quit, I quit Google and the

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Speaker 1: Fall of Tis and thirteen and went for it. Well,

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Speaker 1: and you went back to Michigan. Yeah, yeah, And so

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Speaker 1: I was only in California for four or five months

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Speaker 1: at headquarters, and then um, we haven't. We had an

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Speaker 1: office in an arbor, Michigan, and so that's where I

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Speaker 1: worked for the remaining three and a half years. Um,

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Speaker 1: did you great experience? Did you? Are you a self

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Speaker 1: taught writer? Yes? Yeah, and just read a lot try. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's and that's what I tell everybody to when people

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Speaker 1: ask me, because because then you can look at a

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Speaker 1: paragraph of yours and say, yeah, okay, or this clearly

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Speaker 1: doesn't stand up because because I read, I just read,

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Speaker 1: um rick baths where we go, you're reverting your book?

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and that's set in the bar too high, right,

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Speaker 1: But that's that's how I feel like most people can write.

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Speaker 1: You just have to read. I just I'm a voracious,

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Speaker 1: insatiable reader. I love, love, love, love love books. I

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Speaker 1: read and read, read and wants it's are writing for

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Speaker 1: my website. I realized that I wanted to become as

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Speaker 1: good of a writer as I possibly could, because I

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Speaker 1: found a tremendous amount of satisfaction and sharing and writing.

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Speaker 1: So then started reading books about writing and reading with

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Speaker 1: the writer's eye. And so when I read something, thinking

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Speaker 1: to myself, why is this so compelling? Why does this

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Speaker 1: move me from page to page to page? How did

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Speaker 1: I learn something here and not even realize it? Or

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Speaker 1: what don't I like about this book? And so and

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Speaker 1: so That's how I how I learned to write. Um,

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Speaker 1: and and hopefully, like like you said, I have this

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Speaker 1: tremendous sense of of it, like that imposter syndrome. So

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Speaker 1: as I'm writing the book, like there's no way this

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Speaker 1: could be as good as Steve's book or Rick's book

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Speaker 1: or such and such a book, um, but you just

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Speaker 1: try your very best to just get something on the page.

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Speaker 1: And then you pound your head against the wall over

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Speaker 1: and over again, trying to rewrite and rewrite and fix

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Speaker 1: and fine tune, and and then eventually you have to

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Speaker 1: say I did the best I possibly could in this

401
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Speaker 1: moment as I am right now, and you just have

402
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Speaker 1: to put out there in the world. And uh, and

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Speaker 1: that's what we did. And yeah, there's an athletic uh

404
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 1: analogy there too is leaving it all on the field,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, and I think people, I think a

406
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Speaker 1: reader can. There's there's a supernatural element in here. And

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Speaker 1: it's like my friend who he's a diamond miner somebody

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Speaker 1: I hope to get him on a podcast, but he's uh,

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Speaker 1: he just he People say he has supernatural abilities to

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Speaker 1: find stuff. But the truth is, he says, I I don't.

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Speaker 1: I just I just look for stuff a thousand times

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Speaker 1: more than anybody else. And so you end up and

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Speaker 1: and then you you start finding that you can do

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Speaker 1: these things. Or Malcolm Gladwell talks about the three thousand

415
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Speaker 1: hour rule or the ten thousand repetition rule. Um, that's

416
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Speaker 1: true and jiu jitsu right anything and in anything, right

417
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Speaker 1: guitar playing, but you have to have an incredible passion

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Speaker 1: for it in order to do it ten thousand times

419
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Speaker 1: very rarely. Isn't this just like gift from having that

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00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,959
Speaker 1: flows down through your fingers easily? It's it seems like, Uh,

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00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: we have that assumption when you think of great artists

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Speaker 1: or writers or whatever pursuit it might be, we assume

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Speaker 1: they must have something that we don't. But they probably don't.

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Speaker 1: It's just like you said, having the passion of willingness

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Speaker 1: to work for a long time, you can be like

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Speaker 1: me and be utterly unemployable as a tree planter and

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Speaker 1: a timber thinner, you know, in a trail builder. Eventually

428
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: you gotta find something else. Yeah, could it? Um? I

429
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: can tell you so when you're saying this book can't

430
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: be as good as as Rick Bass or whatever the

431
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 1: book is, the book is extraordinary. And I wouldn't. I would,

432
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: I would take a different attack if I didn't really

433
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 1: take that. Um. I just it is just you did it,

434
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: and um it's it's a uh as we're we're talking

435
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: about a little bit before we started. Um. One of

436
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: the things you managed to do is is something that

437
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: we need right now more than we've ever needed it before,

438
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: which is to understand how we got the incredible things

439
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: we have and you have managed to teach in this book.

440
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: And it's the word would be to be didactic. Right,

441
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: But as Jim Harrison wrote, he goes, but you better

442
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: hide it because everybody wants to teach, right, because you

443
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: feel like you've got something to relate. But you better

444
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: give people a story and an adventure and not be

445
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: putting on a little professor hat and and banging on

446
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: the hitting them with a stick. You know. And one

447
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: of the things you did in here is you have

448
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: you have in it and it looks effortless, which it

449
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: always does when you do it right. But you have

450
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: given us this history that we cannot do without. I

451
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: promise well that that that is the greatest compliment. That's

452
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: what we're looking do. I mean, this is what I

453
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: was hunting um and I just I was reading it

454
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: and I was like, you have the history. You even

455
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: go far afield from just public lands and do like,

456
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: how did we restore the wildlife? You've got Pittman Robertson,

457
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: You've got Danel Johnson in here, and they're all inside

458
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: a narrative of you out in the field go into

459
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: one incredible place after another. What kind of inspired me

460
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: to do this was that, as as I alluded to earlier,

461
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: I started heading out west. I started exploring public lands.

462
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: I started hunting for elk and going to to this

463
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: place or that place. And then in two thousand and

464
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: fourteen and fifteen, then the land transfer movement starts picking

465
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 1: up steam, and I'm starting to see, Okay, these places

466
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: that have developed this tremendous love for and that I'm

467
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: going out and spending every ounce of vacation time I

468
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: have to see, and every time I leave Michigan, I

469
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: want to dive in these places. Now I'm realizing they're threatened,

470
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to understand that. And during that whole

471
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: period of time, I had this realization, I don't understand

472
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: how we got here. I don't know I'm hearing these

473
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 1: words like stage brush rebellion, or I'm hearing about this

474
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 1: person or that person. I don't understand the context of

475
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: the now. And if I don't know that, and I

476
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: worked in the hunting world, in the outdoor world, If

477
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that, a lot of other people probably

478
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: don't too. And then I start asking friends and family

479
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: around me in the Midwest and elsewhere, and I realized

480
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: they don't even know we have these places, let alone

481
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: how we got there. So I realized there's this huge

482
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: information gap. Um, So I started trying to learn myself

483
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: and Then once I did that, I realized, Oh, there

484
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: is information out there, but it's in these dusty old textbooks.

485
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: There's dense not with dense history books, but the average

486
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: person will never read. UM. So I thought, well, I'm

487
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: not a a professional conservationist, I'm not a historian, I'm

488
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: none of these things. I don't live out west. Um,

489
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: I haven't been involved in these things for decades. Who

490
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: am I to try to write a book about this?

491
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: But I came to terms of the fact that I

492
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: am the target market that needs this. I'm a person

493
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: like there are so many other people just like me

494
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: in Michigan or New York, or Florida or Georgia or

495
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: Wyoming or Montana who don't know the context, who don't

496
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: know how we got here, who maybe are unaware of

497
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: of of even this amazing heritage and heritage that we have.

498
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: So if I could write something from that perspective for

499
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: those people that could do some good, maybe, UM and

500
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: do it in a way like you said, that doesn't

501
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: feel stodgy and slow and dense. It's it's in an adventure,

502
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 1: you know. UM. And when I did, when I studied

503
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 1: right and kilm Barn, he wrote a great book Call

504
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: in the Wilderness. She told me, you you gotta give

505
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: people seen if you want to give them expositions. She said,

506
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: somebody wants to take a trip with you. They don't

507
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: want to be lectured to. But but and she said,

508
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: that formula, actually you got it's hitting. It's in this book,

509
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: by the way, which you did unknowingly probably, But that's

510
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: the way you tell a story, right, Um, and uh,

511
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: I've never found that to fail. You can push it.

512
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: She said. It was like taking putting money in the

513
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: bank with like a story and adventure and seen and

514
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: then taking money out of the bank when you're trying

515
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: to teach somebody something or give them some facts. And um,

516
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: do you do? You nailed that in this book. Um.

517
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: One of the things I also when when you're saying

518
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: you were the target market, you're the target audience you yourself,

519
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: And so that the book also works as an exploration

520
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: where you were you were going to learn these things

521
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: as a person who loves something but doesn't know enough

522
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: about it. But I'd also say that you are you

523
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: And I think this is a where we are in

524
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: Bozeman right now, like where we are with people all

525
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: over the United States. Where we are b h A

526
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: two and UM. And I've just come around to this reluctantly,

527
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: like we are the man in the arena that Roosevelt

528
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: talked about, and we definitely include all our sisters in

529
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: that too, the man or the woman in the arena. UM.

530
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: And because we love something so much, the onuses upon

531
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: us two reach your hand out to somebody and say, hey, man,

532
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: let me let me tell you a story. That's Hunter

533
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: per Center and that's um. I I've told this story

534
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: a few times were explained this, but basically I've had

535
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: this career trajectory to where I went from could I

536
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: do this thing? Could I write about hunting and and

537
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: someday be able to make a little bit money from it?

538
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: And then eventually was able to do that, And then

539
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: it was the dream of maybe I could somebody do

540
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: that as my career and I was able to do that,

541
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: and then it was maybe I could be able to

542
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: pay for my mortgage and hate for Spotify, maybe do that,

543
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: and then and eventually got to a point that where

544
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: I realized, Okay, what's what are my next goals? Where

545
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: am I going with us? What? Um? What what do

546
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: I want to be when I grow up, and I

547
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: had this shift from just being able to make it

548
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: or to make some money or whatever, to be able

549
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: to love what I do, to how do I make

550
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: a positive difference, Like how do I do something that matters?

551
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: And it was right around the same time that this

552
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: whole situation was brewing in the world, in the in

553
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: the country, and then myself and I thought, this is

554
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: this is that something you could do that maybe could

555
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: could matter. And as you describe in a book, your

556
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: own a trip when the when the Bundy occupation of

557
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: mau here comes up, and and um, there's some incredible

558
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: journalists covering that Amanda feature at O P b Argon

559
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: Public Broadcasting. I mean I was just glued to that

560
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: for a while, you know. And they they were, they

561
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: were very well informed, unlike many of the journalist who

562
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: showed up there and listened to what where they said

563
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and took it at face value. But um, you were

564
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: you were actually put onto this. And I go back.

565
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: I found Terry Anderson's report called How and Why I

566
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: Privatize All Federal Lands Now in n and was kind

567
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: of a watershed moment for me because I had been

568
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: in the West for ten years, eleven years and I

569
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: was just like, I was just hunting the Missouri breaks.

570
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: I was just learning like the the the epic vastness

571
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: of bom lands um doubt, you know, clear to eastern Montana,

572
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: clear over to eastern Oregon. And I was I was

573
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: really reveling in this stuff. And my kids were being

574
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: born at right at the same time, you and I

575
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: had that moment, and and it was it. It was

576
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: like holy smokes. Yeah, yeah, you realized, Wow, this stuff

577
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: isn't guaranteed, or the stuff physics. And we should have

578
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: known that in a world of seven billion people, that

579
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: people aren't gonna give free let you run around free

580
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 1: on your on your own land. You know, it's very

581
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: easy to take it for granted. Though everybody didn't and

582
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: they still do. I mean, I mean, I have people

583
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: that talk to me about saying and I swear I

584
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: would swear that there's no they don't know what the

585
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: federal government does, but they despised the federal government so

586
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: much that they would give away their own land in

587
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: an act of like what anger, like taking a chainsaw.

588
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: It's not cutting off your nose to spite your faces,

589
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: like cutting off your head with us all. Yeah, yeah,

590
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: I can't and you go, I showed them. I can't

591
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: explain that. But it's very present out there, that's for sure.

592
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: But to your point, I mean, there is just so

593
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: there's just just as today we are many many people,

594
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: and at various times in our lives maybe were divorced

595
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: from the natural world, diverse where we got our food

596
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: as hunter as we try to reconnect there. I think

597
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: the same thing applies to our land. It's it's for

598
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of folks. For me growing up, it was just, oh,

599
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: we crossed the ditch and that's public land, and that's

600
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: where you and Dad go hunt, and Uncle Steve hunts

601
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: on the west side of the public land and you

602
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: and Dad hunt on the north side. And I never

603
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: gave it a second thought, never wondered how we got that,

604
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: never wondered how Glacier National Park can to be and

605
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: why I could have this moment where my dad and

606
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: I walked over the hill and a hundred elk ran

607
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: across the river and I was mesmerized by it. And

608
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: I can still see that scene in my in my

609
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: mind right now. I never thought about what it took

610
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: for me to have that transformational moment when I was

611
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: ten years old. Um, when you talk about the Lamar

612
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: Valley and here and that and and fishing and just

613
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: being able to see every everything on the bottom. Yeah,

614
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: like when and you know, like how do you get that? Right? Yeah?

615
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: You know it's it's really easy to just to just

616
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: enjoy that thing for what it is right now, which

617
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: is good. You should it, right. That's weird about earlier.

618
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: You want to enjoy the present. But every once in

619
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: a while it's worth taking a step back and and

620
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: looking at the bigger picture. Um. That's that Ed Abbey

621
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: who infuses your book to um, you know a good way.

622
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: But he said that that I don't know the whole quote,

623
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 1: but he said, be a half hearted fanatic. Held, get

624
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: out there and do this stuff, and do this stuff,

625
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: be a half hearted fanatic. Yeah yeah, yeah. He definitely

626
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: has has influenced some of my my thoughts and writing.

627
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: We were talking about, um that I read him in

628
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: high school. I was lucky in the My father was

629
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: a fan of that movie. Lonely Are the Brave. Kurt

630
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: Douglas is this ultimate anarchist cowboy and um, he it's

631
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of it's still a good movie, Um, but

632
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of didactic and um, it's like freedom and

633
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: anarchy and cowboys and all. But it's a good movie.

634
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: And it's based on a Edward Abbey's second novel or

635
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: first novel, Brave Cowboy. I mean, you know, is that

636
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: the one that starts off with, um, this cowboy that

637
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: just just a guy that kind of walks, rides his

638
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: horse up to a little town and gets off his horse,

639
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: walks into a house. Um. I've read the first couple

640
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: of chapters and it's a clunky book. Yeah, but it

641
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: but it's good. Um. I mean it's got a lot

642
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: of foam prints, as they Happy becomes the Desert Solitary

643
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: Writer and the and the Fool's Fools Progress was one

644
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: of my favorite novels. Um. But yeah, it's it's worth

645
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: going back and revising some of that, especially as a writer,

646
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: because you can see how much better he got. He's

647
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: a heck of a writer. And I was we were

648
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: just talking earlier, how I how I like these two

649
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: different approaches to to talk him about something like public

650
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: lands or conservation within this book. Even um, part of

651
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: me really wanted this theme and this this idea and

652
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: this is I personally think a lot about the fact

653
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: that we need to find ways to work together, to

654
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: find and compromise to reach a hand across the aisle

655
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: or across the from Cabela's to r or whatever it

656
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: might be. But hey, let's look past some of our

657
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: differences and and stand up for these things we have

658
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: shared love for um or. Sometimes you need to have

659
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: a moderate way of going about things, and then other

660
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: times you need to channel your inner at abbey and

661
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: and burn the house down and have some piss in vinegar.

662
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: And he was always he was a very controversial figure,

663
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: passionate figure. He didn't have a middle gray area. He

664
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: was black and white to a fault. Probably in some ways,

665
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: in some ways I think where I think we all

666
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: live in our time and um some of the of course,

667
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: sometimes you're you live in the wrong time and it

668
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't catch fire, right, But he caught fire

669
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: because it was the time for that. And um, I

670
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: think maybe that that time will come again if it's

671
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: not here now, I do know it's here in in

672
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: some ways people need to become passionate and activists. Activists.

673
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: But your book, I was gonna say, you could have

674
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: seen this. You have written this book as a shot

675
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: across the bow of the American Lands Council and the

676
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: American Legislative Exchange whatever it is. You know, um, you

677
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: could have written that as a is a direct attack,

678
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: and you did not. The book is less a shot

679
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: across the bowl than a tap on the shoulder. And

680
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: let's let's let's talk here. Let's let me tell you

681
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: a story. And I love that. Yeah, I hope it.

682
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: I hope that's something that resonates with other people too,

683
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: because I just I wanted it to be accessible. It

684
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: wanted it. I didn't want to turn people off before

685
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: they could get through it. Well, you you, you you

686
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: got to earn their trust before you can give them

687
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: a polemic. And you did not do the polemicist role here.

688
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: You didn't do it, um. And and you know Stegner

689
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: was a very and so that's where your title came from. Right.

690
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: Let me read that quote. It's we simply need that

691
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: wild country available to us, even if we never do

692
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: more than drive to its edge and look in for

693
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: can be a means of reassuring ourselves of our sanity

694
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: as creatures. A part of the geography of hope. Yeah,

695
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't beat that. And that's where you

696
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: took your title, right, Yeah, I was. I was between

697
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: the Geography of Hope or that Wild Country for the type,

698
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: and I think there's been essay called the Geography of Hope.

699
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: From this title, I decided to try to go this right,

700
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: but yes, tremendously influenced by the words of Stegner and

701
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,959
Speaker 1: was a moderate. Yeah, yeah, it's there's a book called

702
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: The Wild Within David Guessner. Yes, and yes it's Edward Abby.

703
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: So it looks at this it's so interesting. They represent

704
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: those two things that has talked about, those two sides

705
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: of the coin, the two approaches to this. They both

706
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: loved public land, they both loved the West. They both

707
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: had a fiery passion for it. But they approached it

708
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: in very different ways. And and it's it's how I

709
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: personally try to approach it to I want something in

710
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: me and I want something um and and try to

711
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: somehow bring that to life, the firebrand and and and

712
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: the diplomat exactly. Robertson sent me that book. Yeah, he's

713
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: a friend of Guesser's. Yeah, he's a good guy. I

714
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: just just chatting with him a couple of weeks ago.

715
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: I just that's That was the first I heard that book,

716
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: and I was I've been carrying it around, reading at

717
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: it as I go. I like it. You look, it's

718
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: perfect for this what you're talking about. There is um

719
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: kind of a synchronicity. I think the police kind of

720
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: ruined that term for me, the band, you know, but

721
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: there's a kind of synchronicity and all this. You know. Um.

722
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: But so in in all of this, you were you start,

723
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: let's just talk about how you you did this. So

724
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: you decided to start with the Yellowstone National Park, and

725
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: you decided to go ahead and and and take the

726
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: National Parks and the BLM and the First Service all together,

727
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: which is which is bold? Yeah. Again, it came down

728
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: to for me, just early on, I didn't know that

729
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: there are all these different branches of public land, are

730
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: all these different ways that it's broken down and managed

731
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: and used. And so for me, for someone to have

732
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: a basic foundational understanding of public lands and public land history,

733
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: we had to at least define that, Hey, there are

734
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: these different things. You talked to a friend of mine

735
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: Detroit and they've got no clue at the BLMS or

736
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: I think when a lot of people think, oh, America's

737
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: public lands, it's Yellstone national parks like that's it. Well,

738
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: so many times I've heard people go, well, they can't

739
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,959
Speaker 1: do that, they can't log there, that's a national park,

740
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, no, no, that's a national forest.

741
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: It's been like providing logs for you know, a hundred years.

742
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: No no, no, no. There's just so many gaps and

743
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: it is confusing. So what I kind of wanted to

744
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: do is is, um go on a series of trips

745
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: that both fit naturally with the historical narrative that I

746
00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: wanted to share, but also in a certain way present

747
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: the larger picture of our public lands were. So I

748
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: tried to visit a varied array of places, different types

749
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: of regions, different types of public lands. I had some

750
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: BLM trips, I had National park trips, I had National Forest,

751
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: had Wilderness area, UM, I will wildfe Refuge, And so

752
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to use those opportunities to also slip in

753
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: the vegetables of information naturally as we went along. So

754
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: as you, as you follow my own adventures through all

755
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: these different places, doing all sorts of different things too, um,

756
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: you naturally learned about the differences. You naturally learned about

757
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: how these things fit into the progression of our public

758
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: lands from you know, the original idea of of something

759
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: the national park or national forest all the way to

760
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: a wilderness. Um and what that means today and how

761
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: we got it. I mean, I mean that that uh,

762
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: the chapter where you introduced like the the battles over

763
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: wilderness itself. I mean, those are some of my favorites

764
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: because you, um, I've been at this a long time

765
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: and you brought stuff like you regulations and all this

766
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: stuff and with and they're the vegetables, right, but but

767
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: they went down good. But that was stuff that I'm

768
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: not I had to go back and look at that

769
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: I did not do. You've got stuff in here that

770
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: is a it's a deep dive without with with plenty

771
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: of oxygen. Yeah, I got you. I gotta tell you.

772
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm I'm you know, for anybody who wants to inform

773
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: themselves painlessly of this, this this book is is extraordinary

774
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: and it's yeah, we needed it. I mean, that's what

775
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: I mean. I was. I wanted to get down here

776
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 1: and do this podcast and part just to to talk

777
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: to you about the process of this, you know, um yeah,

778
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: and it and it's it's it really it's it's it

779
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: establishes you as an author but also as a hunter conservationist.

780
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: This this book is is is. I mean, a person

781
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: who doesn't hunt will read this book no problem, and

782
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: that that's a great point you brought up. That is

783
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: was one of the foundational things coming into this project

784
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: that I want to do as well. I talked earlier

785
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: about wanting to bridge those divides. I wanted this book

786
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: not to be just a hunting book, right, I mean

787
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: when people would identify me like I'm probably a hunter

788
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: first and foremost other than a father and a husband hunter. Um,

789
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: but I also love all these other things. And I

790
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: wanted something that would be accessible and interesting to all

791
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: outdoor users because I think all outdoor users need to

792
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: come together for these places and we gotta find ways

793
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: to to work hand in hand on some of this.

794
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: And so I wanted something that again wouldn't turn people off,

795
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: but also hopefully come out of this maybe with a

796
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: different perception of hunting to um and maybe the reverse

797
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: as well. Maybe a hunter would read this and maybe

798
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: feel a little bit different about a backpacker. UM. So

799
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: so yeah, I have backpacking trips. I have a back

800
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: rafting trips, I have hunting trips and fishing trips, a

801
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: little bit of everything in here, because I I wanted

802
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: this to reach an audience of diverse people's, because I

803
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: think this, this message of public lands is really important

804
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: for all those people. It is it is, and it's

805
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: and it and we we tend to get hung up

806
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: in the inside baseball of of mountain bike and or

807
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: e bikes or all this stuff, you know, whereas most

808
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: of the people that we talk to, most people we know,

809
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: especially for me in the South, they don't they're not

810
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: they don't care about where your mountain bikes can be

811
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: on the Missouri breaks. They don't even know where that

812
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: is or why they can go there and enjoy it.

813
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: And um, I tell people about the cat fishing on

814
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: the Missouri, you know, and they're and they're super interested

815
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: in that. And that's to see him Russell wildlife refusnia.

816
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: What's that? You know? You gotta kind of find though

817
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: these like you you mentioned it earlier with um, I

818
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: can't remember how you phrased it, but you have to

819
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: find different treat different doorways for people to come into

820
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: something like this. And so for some people maybe it's oh,

821
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: it's there's some hunting in there. That's my doorway, and

822
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read it because I know Mark Huncrot. But

823
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: maybe that the doorway for somebody else might have been, well,

824
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I see he's a hunter, but hey

825
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: does a bunch of backpacking. I'm into that kind of thing.

826
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: And then they come into it, or maybe it's something else.

827
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: But if if we can get him in the door

828
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: and through this this journey, hopefully they come out of

829
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: it with this with a positive idea about hunting and

830
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: hunters and anglers and they learn something or maybe a hunter.

831
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I just would at least

832
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: for me, that's the way I would like to go

833
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: about my work is with with open arms. And so

834
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: they join the family, Yeah, exactly. I'm not I'm not

835
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: the person who wants to say, well, you're not just

836
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: like me, get out of here. No. And and we've

837
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: talked about this before, but it's like you don't want

838
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: everybody to be the same or everybody agreeing or walking

839
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: in lockstep um and and you treat people with a

840
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of respecting this and I and I've learned something

841
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: from reading this book actually, because I was getting less

842
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: and less objective about the Utah contingent. And and it's this,

843
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: it's continuous assault on every aspect of public lands and

844
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: and this vaguely couch hatred of of really the way

845
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: our country is now, where everybody hasn't say and um

846
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: I was um I was getting less and less objective.

847
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: And as I read this, I realized that that I've

848
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: been in the West, probably too too long. And uh,

849
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: and your approach here was much more balanced. And the

850
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: truth is is everybody does they do we need those

851
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: voices at the table. Okay, those voices can't go to

852
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: the president and demand whatever and get it. I don't

853
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: want that, but but I'm I won't. I never want

854
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: to be the kind of person who doesn't shake hands

855
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: and listen. Yeah. Well that's and I say this in

856
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: the book. One of the one of the things that's

857
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: most frustrating about public lands, but also what makes them

858
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: so unbelievably special, is that they are multi use. Is

859
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of different take holders with very

860
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: different ideas about how to manage them, how to use them,

861
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: and that can be huge pain in the ass. Sometimes

862
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: they can drive us and nuts. Great great things are

863
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,959
Speaker 1: come with the pain in the yes. And so that's

864
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: this like inherent and is never going to change hopefully

865
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: in that I hope it never gets pulled away the

866
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: other direction. Um, But that is going to be that

867
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: tug of war that's going to continue for the next

868
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: fifty years or hundred, hopefully hundreds of years. We can

869
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: keep these places around and viable. Um, that's a reality

870
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: that we could either point a finger and said this

871
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: is horrible and complain about it, or we can say

872
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: this is the reality we live in, how we work

873
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: within that box, how do we do this in a

874
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: way that's positive for the lark, you know, the greatest

875
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: good for the greatest number, um. And so I've always

876
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: kind of approached things from the rational standpoint there, but

877
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: it's also really easy to to have the emotional, visceral

878
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: feeling of frustration and concern. I also believe that you know,

879
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 1: there's the Leopold quote that the downside of ecological education

880
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: is that you live in a world of wounds, and

881
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: I think the same thing exists for someone who pays

882
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: attention to public lan issues. Is the more you paid

883
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: mentioning and stuff, the more you see this being cut

884
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: away at and this being attacked and these little things

885
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: that fly anyth radar? Are you talking about the d

886
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: what Brandy Newberg halls, Uh, you didn't use this phrase,

887
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: but defunding decry. We're cutting the budgets for the BLM,

888
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: and now we're gonna tell everybody that holy he smokes,

889
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: these people don't do nothing. You know, why don't we

890
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: just do something else with the land? And you know,

891
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: and and uh that I think that that's a really

892
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: good part in this book too, because it's that's something

893
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: that unless you're really paying attention, you don't get that

894
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: part for service death by a thousand cuts until finally

895
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: or and you manage to get this in there too,

896
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: or we industrialize the landscape so completely that nobody wants it.

897
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: What's the point of protecting because yeah, we've already ruined it. Sorry. Yeah,

898
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: that's the tricky thing is is you have to It

899
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: could become if you if you pay attention, you want

900
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: to pay. We want people to be engaged in this.

901
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: There's also though, and I imagine you've experienced this because

902
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: as you've been in it longer than I have, but

903
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: there's probably a tendency to either get so upset with

904
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: things that you either become bitter or you become apathetic,

905
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 1: where you say throw your hands and say what can

906
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: I do? And I think at least what I learned

907
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: from this, from learning and and dissecting the stories of

908
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: so many people who were part of this history, was

909
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: that regardless of how oftentimes we might feel that we're

910
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: not in control, that we can't influence things, the people

911
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: that did were the ones who said, damn it, I'm

912
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: still gonna put my foot down. I'm still gonna do

913
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: the little thing I can do. Um. And those things

914
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: add up. And you know, we've seen a few things

915
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: recently that I think are encouraging the show. Hey, we

916
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: still have a voice, we still can make a difference.

917
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: And then you can look back fifty years ago and

918
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: see how people had a voice then an influenced real change.

919
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: And you know we're benefiting from it now. So we are,

920
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: we are the beneficiary. So I mean sanely difficult decisions

921
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,479
Speaker 1: and hard work. Um. And Roosevelt and you you really

922
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: bring in it, Uh, Colin Roosevelt in here too. Um.

923
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: Ed Robertson mentioned to me, he said, I have about

924
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: your book. I had no idea how much Franklin Roosevelt

925
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: did on public lands issues following the dust Bowl, you know, um,

926
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: and so much of that that can make me very angry,

927
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, because there was a lot of lands

928
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: saying that I know really well in eastern Montanna who

929
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: were basically homesteaded, destroyed, not out of note, not out

930
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: of malice, just people trying to make it right in

931
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: a place that they couldn't and then abandon Those lands

932
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: then were taken back by the federal government under the

933
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: bankhead Jones and restored. So much of it was restored.

934
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: And now we have people saying, well, we want those

935
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: and and you're I'm looking at him, I'm like going, dude,

936
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: you gotta go back to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalga

937
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: and you gotta come up with that six million dollars

938
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: in gold or whatever it was we paid after the

939
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: Mexican War. And then you're gonna have to fight. But

940
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to you can't have the American people's legacy. Yeah,

941
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: it's yeah, There's there's so much in there and so

942
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: easy to to never feel to wrap your head around.

943
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: So it was tricky to try to figure out a

944
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: way how do you distill a titanic ship full of

945
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: information into a few anecdotes and a handful of key points. Um.

946
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, FDR was one of those characters who I

947
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: had no idea previously what an influence he had, and

948
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: what I liked about, um how he handled things, at

949
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: least in regards to some of these public land decisions,

950
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: was that he from what I understood and from what

951
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: I've read and seen, is that he'd never tried to

952
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: position himself as the arbiter of what was right, where

953
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: as being the expert on how these things should be handled.

954
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 1: He seemed to take a much more um, oh, what's

955
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: the word I'm looking for here, delegatory approach, and that

956
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: he would reach out to the experts. So he brought

957
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 1: and give for a pin show. I had me different.

958
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: He brought him Bob Marshall and said, hey, tell me

959
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: what you're seeing on the ground. Where do we need

960
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: to go with this? He listened to the Leopolds and

961
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: the Marshals, and UM, I think that led to some

962
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: decisions being made that really helped us out in the

963
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: long run. Um. But also, I mean, right there, you

964
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: look at the debates between FDR and and a Marshall

965
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: about wilderness. Right. President Franklin Roosevelt was much more in

966
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: favor of more development, more roads, more of that. Um

967
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: and he had, you know, good reasons for something. Do

968
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: you have an interesting part in here? It's the road

969
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: through the Smokey's or through the Blue Ridge? Yeah, yeah,

970
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: through the smoke He's there in the road right through

971
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: a ridge through what's not the National Party that more

972
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: people could enjoy it, right from some one approach that

973
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: could make sense. But then, um, I still hear that

974
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: about the Bob Marshall by the way, right, UM. I

975
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: can't remember where I read it. I think maybe it

976
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: was in this book I just finished, called The Only

977
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: Kayak Um. But the guy said, there's when you're when

978
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: you're talking about this topic. At some point more access

979
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: becomes excess, and there's a there's a really fine line

980
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: that access is important, but it can very quickly become

981
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: access and um. And that was this debate raging in

982
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: the thirties and forties when the c c C was

983
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: building new campgrounds and roads and uh, fire towers, all

984
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: these different things, which reviewed is progress and great by

985
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people. But then you had other folks

986
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: saying whoa, whoa, whoa, rain it back, guys. Yeah, we're

987
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: destroying the thing we're trying to protect. Yeah, and we

988
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: of course we're still having those same debates today and

989
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: and they yeah, and it's and some of that architecture

990
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: and stuff they did is so spectacular still around. Yeah.

991
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: And um, I think about Gates Park and the Bob

992
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: and that's this incredible cabin situation and it's beautiful, like infrastructure,

993
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: it's way up if you if you go up where

994
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: y'all went up the North Fork, you jump the hump

995
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: over into this big park system. It's freezing cold in there.

996
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: People try to homestead that. Actually, at one point it's

997
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: an amazing place. Yeah, I'm very jealous about time you're

998
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: of your book backcraft in part really cool trip backcrafting

999
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: and fly fishing in the Bob. Wow, that is a

1000
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 1: special special place and it's um and I and I Yeah,

1001
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot here. I was gonna get you to

1002
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: read the very last page, but I'm not gonna do

1003
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: that because that that can be for the people who

1004
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: get the book, right. I don't. I don't. We're not

1005
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: we're not doing any spoilers on it, you know. But

1006
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: the the you are conclusions in in in Alaska. You know, um,

1007
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 1: there there's some powerful stuff there that people can lead.

1008
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: They can put this book down and take away energized. UM.

1009
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: And I was. I was interested to um. Beyond that,

1010
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: I like the fact that it that it ends in

1011
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: that massive landscape. It does. Yeah, And it's funny. We

1012
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about how so many times we think

1013
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: that writers, artists or whatever have this like divine intervention

1014
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: it flows through them, and so so it wasn't like

1015
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: that at all for me. For this book. It was.

1016
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: It was hard. It was a lot of days sitting

1017
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: the blinking cursor, like oh my gosh, how I'm I

1018
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: gonna do this? But I had one moment of of

1019
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: that flow. It was it was it was two in

1020
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: the morning and I wrote the final chapter in a

1021
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: flurry of like, I don't know, two hours NonStop. Wrote

1022
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 1: that last chapter. It's it's my favorite chapter, is my

1023
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: favorite thing I've ever written. It just it just kind

1024
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: of poured out of me. It's like an emotional outpouring. UM.

1025
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: So I'm very proud of that. I wasn't glad that

1026
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: you like that. I never heard that that quote. I'm

1027
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: almost gonna look it up. Um, of the it's Peter

1028
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: somebody who it's a it's a quote on hunting of

1029
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: intersecting the line. Yes, uh yeah, that the great moment

1030
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: that only hunters no where where. I'll let you read it,

1031
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna have to find it. Give me with

1032
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: me while you're looking for that. It is in a

1033
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: terrific collection of essays called The Hunter's Heart, which is

1034
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: edited by David Peterson. Yeah, I know David Peterson, and

1035
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: so that for one looking for another book, highly recommend

1036
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 1: that one. And within that there's a there's an essay

1037
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: where he he talks about I think it was an

1038
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: outcome and he had this wonderful description of that moment

1039
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: right before the shot, and um, do you want do

1040
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: you want to read it? It's just it's it's it's

1041
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: really hot, all right? Let me find word is here

1042
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: on the page here it is. Pete Done in a

1043
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: Hunter's Heart describes these final seconds as the great moment

1044
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: that only hunters know, when all existence draws down to

1045
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: two points in a single line, and the universe holds

1046
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 1: his breath and what maybe and what will be meet

1047
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: and become one before the echo returns to its source

1048
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: finding the bull cariboo in my scope, I squeezed the trigger.

1049
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: Sweet And that's how he used your quotes to build

1050
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: your own work. Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful stuff. Thank you.

1051
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: And that was I don't know that. I didn't know

1052
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: that guy's work. It's a great I would recommend reading that,

1053
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: uh in anything with Peterson's two or he was a

1054
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: seminal voice in ilk cutting in there a book called

1055
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: ilk Hart that's a good one. And then and then uh,

1056
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: oh gosh, is it blood Sport or blood Uh? I

1057
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: don't know the other one. He has another really good

1058
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: collection of his own essays that are all related to hunting.

1059
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: And of course he's definitely uh get strong opinions which

1060
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: some might not agree with, but he certainly has a

1061
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: lot of passion and writer. He's a powerful guy. Um.

1062
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: And and he was he was he was doing it

1063
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: before anybody else. I mean, like to me, I mean

1064
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: he came of age and that he's Vietnam age. Yeah.

1065
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 1: And he was friends with the Abbey for a little

1066
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: bit there. I think he did some collections of Abby's

1067
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: letters and things like that. Well, um, so interesting guy,

1068
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: I have UM. I had a question when you're you're

1069
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: talking about the jeep rally and moeb I actually hit

1070
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: that this year in April, I think, And um I was,

1071
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: and I was. There was like six different languages being

1072
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: open at the gas station. Yeah yeah, and it was

1073
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: all these people though from Um, these people were from

1074
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: countries where such a thing would be absolutely unheard of.

1075
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: Grout um. And and I had the I just I

1076
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: love that chapter because I had the same impression. I go, Okay,

1077
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: you gotta get a grip, buddy, because these people are

1078
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: enjoying the hell out of this, and they're from countries

1079
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 1: who long ago have lost any concept of public lands

1080
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: and and public like access to go territory stuff right

1081
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: with the monster truck. Yeah, but um, we are you

1082
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: familiar with Jim Style stuff? The Canyon Zephyr, I don't

1083
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: think he was. He is the one you should read

1084
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: Jim Styles. Look him up, um and uh Canyon Countries Zephyr.

1085
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: I think he's a reporter in moabb he's he's Edward

1086
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: Abbey years and he um he's like the recreation industry

1087
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: is just as bad as the uranium industry, and um,

1088
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: and he makes he's he's very smart, so he makes

1089
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. But you you're finally Um for me,

1090
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it's not as bad as your radium industry.

1091
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: That's how that's my personal take. I'm not here to

1092
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: judge Jim Styles because he's older than I am and

1093
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: he's been there in the trenches for forever. But um,

1094
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: Jim is that you should read his stuff. I'll check

1095
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: that out. But I definitely I mean to that point,

1096
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: I found myself over and over and I felt this

1097
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: for years, and then I had to confront my own

1098
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: emotions and thoughts when while trying to make this write

1099
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: this book right. So I had to kind of confront

1100
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: my own biases and all that as I'm as I'm

1101
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: I can get so angry, feel frustrated with these things

1102
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: I'm seeing out there, disheartened, pissed. It can ruin you

1103
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: a good time, right, Yeah, absolutely, But then I've tried

1104
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: to get better at stepping outside of my way of

1105
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: looking at these things, are my way of enjoying these

1106
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: things and think about think about where these other people

1107
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: are coming from or how they're and engaging with the landscape,

1108
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: and would I rather than not at all? Not? Because

1109
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: because if you know, if somebody wants to go out

1110
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: into a national force with eighteen kids and scream and

1111
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: hoot and holler and have a great time. Maybe it

1112
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: kind of ruined my experience what I thought I was

1113
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: gonna get this. But if they're having a good time

1114
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: and that leads the to them appreciating these places, someday,

1115
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: maybe they'll do something to keep them around. Every one

1116
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: of those kids might become the ultimate advocate. You never know,

1117
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: the guy got our girl who fights it out. So

1118
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: so I've I've constantly trying to remind myself that not

1119
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: everybody has to be just like me and how I

1120
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: enjoy these places. Um, and and there is a there's

1121
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: a there's a there's a filter, though I try to

1122
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: pass it through. And I mentioned it here in the

1123
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: book somewhere. Um, when you're thinking about how to balance

1124
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: all these different ways of using and enjoying our public

1125
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: lands and all the various stakeholders, it can be hard

1126
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: to it can be hard for me to sit here

1127
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: and say, no, this is the way it should be done,

1128
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: this is how I think it should be done. And

1129
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: I'm right, I'm coming from my own perspective that I'm

1130
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: coming from my own set of circumstances, I'm looking through

1131
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: my hunter's lens or whatever might be. Um, how do

1132
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: you balance that with all these different stake holders, all

1133
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: these different ideas. And the one thing that I think

1134
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: is helpful that I took from the past all this

1135
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: research was taking the approach that Theodore Roosevelt always advocated for,

1136
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: which was always passed through the lens of what's going

1137
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: to be best for the next generation and those to come.

1138
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: Look at this situation, look at this decision, look at

1139
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: this controversy, look at these opposing points of view, and

1140
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: think about what that might mean twenty years from now

1141
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: or thirty years from now. And if you can pass

1142
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: it through and it's going to keep this stuff around

1143
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: and keep it positive and viable, if we're gonna make

1144
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: sure this is available for our children and their children's children,

1145
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: then that's probably right. It's kind of like all the

1146
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: Leopold's quote when you're talking about you know, if it

1147
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: tends to work with nature, it's probably right. If it

1148
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: tends to work against nature is probably wrong. Well, I

1149
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: would say the same thing with public lands. If it

1150
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: tends to be positive for future generations, then we're probably

1151
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: airing in the right direction. And I think that one

1152
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: of the things I I've got from a Stephen Pine,

1153
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: the fire historian, was UM. He said that that the

1154
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: Forest Service itself needs to kind of redefine itself in

1155
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: the wake of being a fire suppression agency or or

1156
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: and all this this stuff, he said, and to build

1157
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: towards perhaps on ecological resilience UM. And that word is

1158
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: everywhere now resilience, resilience. But but it's not that it's

1159
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: just because it's huge, law don't mean it ain't great. UM.

1160
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: And to to build those kind of UM ecosystem services,

1161
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: those ecological communities which also work on a huge number

1162
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: of levels. You can still ride a mountain bike from it.

1163
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: You can still probably go monster truck. And in part

1164
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: of it, you know, UM. And James Pogue, who wrote

1165
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: Chosen Country about the Bundy's UM, he he ends up

1166
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: in that book and in real life of course with

1167
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 1: the books non fiction, but he's UM. He gets to

1168
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: be friends with this guy who builds monster trucks and

1169
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: they go bang banging around on monster truck sometimes for

1170
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: like eighteen hours at a time. The guys obsessed and UM.

1171
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: I talked to James about that, and I was just like,

1172
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, is that's your thing, you know? And he

1173
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: said no, but it's his and he's a friend of mine,

1174
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: and I got to see it, and are I can

1175
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: appreciate his way of of this of pursuing this freedom. Yeah,

1176
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: it's it's a tight one. Man. It's hard these days

1177
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: to do that because we're so surrounded me whether it

1178
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: be in the digital social media world, so much of

1179
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: us are kind of sucked into. Now you can be

1180
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's said all the time now, but this

1181
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: echo chamber, it's really easy to get into our little zone,

1182
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: our little group of people are a little ecosystem and

1183
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: never have to pull out of it and look at

1184
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: things from somebody else's perspective. And that's so true when

1185
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: it comes to public line. So it almost takes like

1186
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: a proactive approach. You have to constantly have a little

1187
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: self talk with yourself saying, hey, you know what, take

1188
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: a step back, think about this from a different perspective.

1189
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: And I think it's a helpful thing, and I think

1190
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: it's probably the only way that we're going to be

1191
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: able to move this whole thing forward in positive ways.

1192
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: We have to uh, whether just be American politics in

1193
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: general or public lands are people we probably need to

1194
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: do a little more of that. Yeah, And and we

1195
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: don't live in a in a a dictatorship, you know,

1196
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: we don't live in a place where somebody can be

1197
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: so right and then impose their will on others. You know,

1198
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: We've chosen not to do that kind of uniquely in

1199
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: the world. Um and and so when you choose that path,

1200
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: that's a difficult path, and you've got to embrace that difficulty.

1201
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: You know, that thing you're talking about in writing this

1202
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: book and challenging your biases, you know, that's a spiritual discipline.

1203
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: I also can highly recommended to people who want to write,

1204
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: or want to do podcasts, or want to do anything

1205
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: like outside of say just roofing a house or or

1206
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: fixing a car. Right, if you want to do something

1207
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: that that is large in a on a more abstract

1208
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: and larger level, that's the first thing you do, is

1209
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: you challenge your biases. And that can be one of

1210
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: the most interesting spiritual discipline in my in my experience. Yeah, well,

1211
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: anything that anything that's in this book, anything where where

1212
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: I have shared an idea or a suggestion or a

1213
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: we need to do this, we need to think about this,

1214
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: or this is something that we as a people are struggling,

1215
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Every one of thoseens are simply things

1216
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: that I'm struggling with right now and working through right now.

1217
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like this, this book is simply a communication

1218
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: of my internal battles and challenges and trying to figure

1219
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: this all out myself. And and in many cases, I

1220
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: think there are things that are are happening all across

1221
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: the country. We're all battling with these same questions and

1222
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: inner turmoil and and and it's there every day. I

1223
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: was listening to all that stuff and I don't have

1224
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: a smartphone or anything. I was just listening to Brigador

1225
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 1: Radio and it's just like it's just it's it's so

1226
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: boring to you know, the process and all. But when

1227
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: in the NPR versus the Fox station versus all this stuff,

1228
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: and I have a what did that? Not intentionally? Intentionally,

1229
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: I just just not part of my life. And I'm

1230
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: hoping to to I want to be informed, but I

1231
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: don't want to be drowned, you know. UM. But one

1232
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: of the things and in this and it's in your

1233
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 1: work here in UM, we have to know that when

1234
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: we are over across the table with people who disagree

1235
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: with us on one thing or another that we and

1236
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: they are acting in some sort of good faith. And

1237
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: that has not always been the case with the privatization

1238
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: of public lands movement. And we should understand that there

1239
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: are people who do not say what they mean, and

1240
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: who will tell you falsehoods, and who will couch their

1241
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: agenda in other things that come out. And that's when

1242
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: you that's when righteous anger must must must be sustained

1243
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: and applied. Right that was um in In. You have

1244
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: an incredible quote in their um where during the pushback

1245
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: against Teddy Roosevelt's um forest reserves and whatnot, one Western

1246
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: senator said with google eyed, bandy legged dudes from the

1247
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: East and sad eyed, absent minded professors and bug oologists,

1248
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: and you know that is the perfect that scorn ridicule.

1249
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: It's all. It's the last bastion of like somebody who's

1250
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: like furious and they're losing. And when I read that,

1251
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: I went and looked up Linda Beck, who was the

1252
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: carp researcher at mau Hir who was trying to restore

1253
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: they want to restore the red band trout, and the

1254
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: carp had muddied the water so much that they couldn't

1255
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 1: get any light through two falster the aquatic vegetation and

1256
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 1: the and the whole um whatever you call that, the

1257
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: food chain that would would allow them to restore the

1258
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: red bound trout. It also was messing up the irrigation

1259
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: and the agriculture and all that stuff. Right, So she

1260
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:01,479
Speaker 1: was the carp researcher, and those is what ran Bundy said.

1261
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: And there he said, yeah, this carpet lady, this is

1262
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: part of what is destroying America. And Ryan didn't know

1263
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: anymore about what was going on in that office and

1264
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: that research. Then I know about astrophysics, you know, and

1265
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: so one of the things, and on on many sides,

1266
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: I just will full and scornful ignorance. We can fight

1267
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: over process, if we can agree on goals, we can

1268
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: fight over method. But I wrote that's what I was

1269
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: woot in your book. But we cannot yield to ignorance

1270
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: or messianic religious beliefs that will take us all over Cliffe.

1271
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: That's where we have to that. We have to draw

1272
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: a line. Yeah, draw a line somewhere. It's it's figuring out,

1273
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 1: it's it's getting people engaged in the process enough that

1274
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: they can start to start in between those two is

1275
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: a challenge. But once you get in there and people

1276
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: are in the arena understanding what's happening, then you can

1277
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: start having those You have to plan a flag on

1278
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: the hill at some point, and you have to We

1279
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 1: often choose the sword we want to die on. Do

1280
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: you think if you explained what the carpet lady did

1281
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: to run Bundy that he would understand it? But I

1282
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: think there's sometimes there will be people or groups that

1283
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: simply don't care because they've there are such some sometimes

1284
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: such strong ideological stances that aren't necessarily supported by rational evidence,

1285
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: but are simply because that's just I'm not saying a

1286
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: literal religion, but a figurative religion of ideas, uh that

1287
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: if you present anything different, they'll just look at it

1288
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 1: as rubbish because it doesn't fit that worldview. Just you know,

1289
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: damn the evidence. Um, that's why you do armed rebellions,

1290
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean armed attacks instead of unarmed attacks, as you're

1291
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: not there to learn about the research being done well.

1292
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with like hunting. There's gonna

1293
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: be some portion of the of the populace out there

1294
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: that's going to be vehemently anti hunting no matter what,

1295
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: and they're going to no matter what conversation would have

1296
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: them or how you present it, they're never going to

1297
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: change their mind. They're never gonna be willing to consider

1298
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: what we're doing or why we're doing or how we're

1299
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: doing it. UM. So in some cases there's it's it's

1300
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 1: like beating your head against the wall. There's no point

1301
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: sometimes with trying to convince that person. But there's always

1302
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: most often there's a large middle ground who is open

1303
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: to new ideas or rational evidence. UM. And that's the

1304
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: audience I think we can can speak to and work

1305
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 1: with and um where there's opportunity. And I think that's

1306
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: what one reason when I finished this book it was

1307
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 1: there's there's a I don't know if it's in yours,

1308
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: but it's just like what we're talking about here is

1309
01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 1: hope and UM and the idea that informed citizenry will

1310
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 1: often it'll be excruciatingly slow maybe, but we'll often make

1311
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 1: the right decisions. And that's what we're we're that's what

1312
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: we're working on, that's what you're that's what you're doing

1313
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: in this this adventure book. You have to have hope,

1314
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: You have to have faith. I mean, I was just

1315
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: thinking about this the other day. Von Shnarda always says

1316
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 1: that the only cure for depression is actual and I

1317
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,560
Speaker 1: think that's so true. And so there's two ways you

1318
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: can go about it. You can look at this world

1319
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: of wounds, as Leopold called it, whether it be ecologically

1320
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: or with the attacks on public lands, and you can

1321
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 1: either look at it from the perspective of, gosh, the

1322
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 1: stuff keeps getting attacked, gets worse and worse, the the

1323
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: sky is falling down around us, and you can throw

1324
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 1: your hands up and say, what can I do? You

1325
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: can get depressed about it or just turn off and

1326
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 1: stop paying attention. Or you can take the opposite approach,

1327
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: which is saying, yeah, there's a lot of things going on.

1328
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: I can't control at all, but I can do something right.

1329
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: I can. All I can control is my actions and

1330
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 1: my decisions, and I'm going to choose to do every

1331
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:09,719
Speaker 1: damn thing I can to to be on the side

1332
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: of the good, on the side of the positive, on

1333
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 1: the side of the action. Uh. There's a there's a

1334
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: line in here that I found from Theodore Roosevelt, and

1335
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: I'll miss quota, but he says something the lines of

1336
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt. Um always preferred the man that took two

1337
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: steps to the man that theorized about. I got that.

1338
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 1: It was great. Yeah. It's one thing to think about it,

1339
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 1: and it's one thing to theorize. But do something, one

1340
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: little thing, um, and that will lead to another and another.

1341
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: But the best antidote is action. Yeah, and and and

1342
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 1: and and to have a somewhat of a thick skin

1343
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 1: need to optimism needs some thick skin. Um. One of

1344
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 1: the things I kept I've been noticing amongst I have

1345
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: a large group of folks that I keep in touch with.

1346
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been less that way, you know. Um,

1347
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 1: and uh, there's a there's there's a feeling of that

1348
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: things are so broken that you can't do nothing about it. Oh,

1349
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: it's so corrupt, right, But actually the United States we're

1350
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,439
Speaker 1: following a little bit, but it actually ranks fairly low

1351
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: in the international corruption indexes. Yeah, and to say democratic

1352
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: republica congo or and all. But even even amongst the

1353
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 1: upper levels, we we have a fairly good right and

1354
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 1: so that excuse for apathy it's not actually valid. It's

1355
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: it's funny. I certainly can't being relatively new to the

1356
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: arena myself. You know, I'm only thirty two years old. UM.

1357
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to claim to say that I know

1358
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:53,600
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about all these things like this, but

1359
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 1: trying to learn from those who came before you, UM,

1360
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: it seems to be the case that, UM, yeah, you

1361
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: have to keep trying. You have to try to stay positive.

1362
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: At least that's the approach I'm certainly gonna try over

1363
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 1: the next thirty two years. You've done it in tremendous

1364
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:13,759
Speaker 1: amount of information gathering, research reading on people who actually

1365
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 1: took the first step and accomplished incredible stuff. I mean,

1366
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: there's several of these things in here, of of John F. Lacey,

1367
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: who's a personal hero of mine, even though I'm from Alabama.

1368
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 1: Was my my family was on the Confederacy side, right,

1369
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: But John F. Lacey was from West Virginia. They pioneered Iowa.

1370
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:35,839
Speaker 1: He joined the army at age twenty. He was captured

1371
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: at Blue Mills, the Battle of Blue Mills, and then

1372
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: paroled and went immediately back to the army and then

1373
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: stayed in until the final blast. And then he's the

1374
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 1: one that wrote the antiquities at so sometimes and I

1375
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:53,280
Speaker 1: think I've said this on my podcast before. Sometime I

1376
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 1: see these lesser beings who have have experienced no fire

1377
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: that we know of, try into attack the creations and

1378
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: and the the accomplishments of John F. Lacey, and I

1379
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 1: just it very hard to hold on to your objectivity

1380
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 1: at that point. It can be and I'm sure every

1381
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: decade from here and out, I gotta believe I'm gonna

1382
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: find myself having those kinds of moments more more often probably,

1383
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 1: And you can remember John F. Lacey and you know

1384
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: what would what what would he do? Like? Like what

1385
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 1: what's happened here? Eight term Republican senator from Iowa? You know?

1386
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: Um in public services? Whole life, the ninety two joints,

1387
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 1: the Moon and Crocker Club. I wrote all this down

1388
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: earlier because I just was like, as in your book,

1389
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 1: there are as we spoke earlier, and I know we

1390
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: gotta get wrapping this up, but there are doors in

1391
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: this book the great writers, great thinkers, and there is

1392
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: a there is a clear portrait of how Americans have

1393
01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 1: achieved fantastic things over and over, despier It's inspiring, if anything,

1394
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: I came out of this whole project from all all

1395
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:08,599
Speaker 1: the all the reading, all the research, everything I try

1396
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: to dive into to just better place myself in the now.

1397
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: I came away with with absolute optimism and inspiration and

1398
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 1: hope because uh, they did it, then we can do

1399
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,880
Speaker 1: it now. Um. They laid the blueprint for how to

1400
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 1: do it. They showed us as possible. It's not gonna

1401
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,679
Speaker 1: be easy. As Randy always has to say, it's not easy,

1402
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 1: it's not convenient, but it's worth it. It's one of

1403
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 1: my favorite quotes are Randy's. And I think about this

1404
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 1: all times. Conservation is not convenient, and that's it's a choice,

1405
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: you know. Um, And there's all there's there's winners and

1406
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: losers and all of it. But in the end, they

1407
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: what we're talking about was was to to maintain the

1408
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:54,679
Speaker 1: integrity of something that we've inherited. That's what we're trying

1409
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 1: to do, you know. You know, Yeah, this's a hell

1410
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 1: of a torch. Those path stunned us, it was. It's

1411
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 1: a heavy burden you have that in the book, to

1412
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 1: the responsibility oldment of it. Yeah, I feel that a lot.

1413
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,560
Speaker 1: We're so lucky to have it we have now, and

1414
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 1: it's I think it's it's important to remember that it

1415
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 1: is a responsibility now on our shoulders to keep that going.

1416
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 1: And absolutely after becoming a father, I felt that a

1417
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: whole lot more personally. And I've got a second one

1418
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: arriving a two months, another son coming and yeah, thanks,

1419
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: and that just it makes us unbelievably personal. It's not

1420
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 1: just about my own what I'm gonna be doing for

1421
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 1: the next fifty sixty years, but what's the world they're

1422
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: gonna grow up in. Um kids have and I'm only

1423
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 1: just learning this now, but they've got a way of

1424
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: really changing the timeline you think on and how you

1425
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: do world they do. Um it also, uh, it explodes

1426
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: the concept that you're the most important thing on earth.

1427
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 1: And in my experience, I tell people that that raising

1428
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 1: these children with my wife, who which was really good

1429
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 1: at it, I was a work in progress. Um. They

1430
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: it's been the largest like adventure of my life. And um,

1431
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 1: they're they're big now, but they the adventure continues whether

1432
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: you whether you wanted to or not. You knowing, like

1433
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 1: in your in your book you're talking about like adventure

1434
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 1: is not really comfortable. It's like gallons of sweat and

1435
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: running out of water and falling and having the sewer

1436
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: flow come out of the out of the camper, right.

1437
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,560
Speaker 1: But it's, um it, this is what I wanted to

1438
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 1: pass on. And and you you'll do it because you're

1439
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean you're you're deep in the arena with this

1440
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 1: and and it's it's a spiritual discipline to write this book.

1441
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 1: It's a spiritual discipline to be a father. And you, man,

1442
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 1: we've got something my kids and I have, and my

1443
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 1: wife and my kids and I especially they hunt with me.

1444
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,679
Speaker 1: And this is something that I it's an obligation. There's

1445
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: no way I could repay it. I can't even begin

1446
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 1: to repay it. But I can try. I can act

1447
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: his act. Yeah, and so what's I'll quit? What's got?

1448
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 1: What's next for you? Well? Um, you know, uh, doing

1449
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:12,799
Speaker 1: a lot of cool things here with the Mediator. Actually

1450
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 1: been working on a project here, most recently called The

1451
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:16,679
Speaker 1: Back Forward, in which I'm looking at the flip side

1452
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: of all this, which is some of the issues related

1453
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:21,719
Speaker 1: to private land conservation, which has been a really interesting

1454
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,160
Speaker 1: thing to learn about. Um. But I want to write

1455
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 1: more books too. That's I think that's when I'm when

1456
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm seventy five, and looking back, I hope I've written, Um,

1457
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of books that can stand the test of time. Yeah,

1458
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: body of work. I loved this process. This is the

1459
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 1: of everything I've been blessed to be able to do.

1460
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,799
Speaker 1: I've nothing has been harder, but nothing has been more fulfilling,

1461
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 1: more probably this than anything else I ever done. UM.

1462
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 1: So I would love to continue to explore these types

1463
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: of issues, issues related to my love for the outdoors,

1464
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 1: wild animals and wild places and and what we can

1465
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 1: do to keep them around and keep them healthy and sustainable.

1466
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 1: So I don't know exactly what those stories will be.

1467
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly where they'll take place or where

1468
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 1: they'll take me. Um, But that's what I want to

1469
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 1: do when I grow up, is share those stories and

1470
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:13,719
Speaker 1: share those lessons, um and hopefully leave a positive impact.

1471
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 1: I think you're in it, and I appreciate you saying that,

1472
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 1: but um, and I'll be interested in sal read whatever

1473
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 1: you you right? I mean is this This is a

1474
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: This is a hell of a freaking launch. But I

1475
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:26,720
Speaker 1: can't tell you how much that means because you've been

1476
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 1: inspiration from I've read your work for so so many years,

1477
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: and I've always looked at the things that you've put

1478
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,680
Speaker 1: out there to the world like, man, he's got it.

1479
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 1: You're you're conveying, You're getting across this sometimes hard to

1480
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 1: digest information in a way that is emotional, in a

1481
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 1: way that fired me up, in a way that helped

1482
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: me take the next step. Um, you were one of

1483
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 1: those people that helped with this book too, so so

1484
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 1: thank you him. I appreciate that. And and it's it's

1485
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 1: written like you, all of that stuff was produced, and

1486
01:18:56,960 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 1: it was produced beating your head against the days, all

1487
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: of it. But it comes from that same will of

1488
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 1: like absolute passion. You're like, you're like, this is just

1489
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 1: too incredible. Yeah, you know, I just love, love, love

1490
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: love these places. Yeah. I love what we're able to do.

1491
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: The luckies people in the world, as far as I'm concerned.

1492
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 1: That's why I feel too many well Mark, I will

1493
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: um uh. They can check out. People that want to

1494
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: get more can do the wire to Hunt podcast. Um

1495
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 1: and you do you still are you running a blog? Still?

1496
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: So now all of my articles live on the mediator website. Okay,

1497
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 1: so that's all the meat Eater dot com and you know,

1498
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 1: the wires on podcast um and the books available on

1499
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: Amazon and where books are available, right on and then

1500
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 1: then the book is that wild country and epic journey

1501
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,280
Speaker 1: through the past, present, and future of America's public lands.

1502
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: Thanks for doing it, man, Hey, thank you. I can't

1503
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 1: tell you how much how much I appreciate it. This

1504
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: has been fun. Thank you you bet. This has been

1505
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 1: back Country Hunters and Anglers podcasting blast. Um how hearing

1506
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 1: we're signing all for this one, but we'll be you

1507
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 1: back in a week or ten days. And meantime, check

1508
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:07,600
Speaker 1: out back Country Hunters dot org get some more podcasts

1509
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: there and see what we're up to. And uh. Also,

1510
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna be out there wandering around hunting and fishing,

1511
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 1: wearing out a pair of boots, and I hope you'll

1512
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 1: be doing the same thing. We're living in God's pocket.

1513
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,880
Speaker 1: We need to celebrate that, never forget it, and get

1514
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: out there and and live it and enjoy it. Hey,

1515
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 1: thanks a lot, everybody, talk soon. And that's a rap

1516
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 1: for me to thank you all for listening to this

1517
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 1: unique version of the Wired Hunt podcast. And big thanks

1518
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,559
Speaker 1: to Hell and back Cruntry Hunters and Anglers for hosting

1519
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,559
Speaker 1: me on their show sharing all this with their audience. Um,

1520
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: hopefully they all enjoyed this as much as I did,

1521
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 1: and I hope you did too. I will give you

1522
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,560
Speaker 1: one more ask if you haven't yet, would love it

1523
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,120
Speaker 1: if you could pick up a copy of That Wild

1524
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: Country for yourself or a friend or a family member.

1525
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 1: I put my heart in sold to this. I hope

1526
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: you can see that and feel it, and here as

1527
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: I talk about it, and as you read the book,

1528
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 1: I hope you find it valuable to learn something from it,

1529
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: that you enjoy it and um that maybe it can

1530
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 1: give us all a little push to do a little

1531
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: bit more. I know that in writing this book for myself,

1532
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 1: it gave me a huge kick in the butt to

1533
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: try to do a better job of of walking the walk.

1534
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 1: It's not always easy or convenient, but as Randy Newburgh

1535
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: has reminded me in the past, it is always worth it.

1536
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 1: So with that, my friends, I will let you go.

1537
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 1: I hope the beginning to has been a good one

1538
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 1: for you, and I hope it's a wonderful, wonderful year

1539
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:38,719
Speaker 1: that you've got laid out head to you. So until

1540
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:43,840
Speaker 1: next time, thank you for listening, and stay wired to hunt.