WEBVTT - The Social Solution 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.240 Hi everyone, I'm Emily Chang and this is Bloomberg Studio. 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:06.360 At one point out, as many of you know, I've 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.320 been covering tech from Silicon Valley for over a decade, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.639 which means I've witnessed the epic rise of so many 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.200 different technology companies, watching them shape our world, both for 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.280 better and for worse. So when I watched Netflix's hit 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.319 film The Social Dilemma, where yours truly even makes a 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.760 small cameo, it really hit home. The film has soared 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.440 to the top of most watch lists in multiple countries, 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.239 waking the wider world up to the alleged perils of technology. 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.200 The indictment is unforgiving that social media is a drug, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.760 creating an epidemic of addiction and manipulation and generations more anxious, depressed, 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.640 and unhealthy than ever before. He built these things, and 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.959 we have a responsibility to change it. The film profiles 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.239 multiple Silicon Valley veterans, including Tristan Harris, former design ethicist 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.600 at Google now co founder of the Center for Humane Technology, 0:00:57.120 --> 0:00:59.880 Tim Kendall, former head of monetization at Facebook, and for 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.760 We're President of Pinterest now CEO of Moment. They joined 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.880 me for a virtual conversation on this edition of Bloomberg Studio. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.920 At one point out along with Sophia Noble, an associate 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:11.959 professor at U c l A and author of a 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.400 best selling book on bias and technology, to talk about 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.080 what the movie got right, what the movie got wrong, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:28.679 and chart a path towards the social solution. Each of 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:33.280 you has been a voice in the conversation around big text, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.200 unchecked power, and I'm curious when was the lightbulb moment 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.800 for you? What was the moment that sparked your desire 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.320 to speak out? I think the moment for me was 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.320 when I was at Google, and it was about two 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.320 thousand twelve, having studied at this lab at Standford called 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.640 the Persuasive Technology Lab UM, I saw that more and 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.520 more of my friends decisions were about building engagement and 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.840 growth and less and less about a genuine, sincere intent 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.440 for how do we build technology that empowers people and 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.280 does good in society? Uh? And that was really delightful 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.160 moment for me. Now, Tim, you were focused on how 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.519 Facebook makes money for five years and then five more 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.480 years at Pinterest. That's a decade. When did things shift 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.600 for you? They really shifted When I had UM, I 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.080 had my first child, UM, and I realized, I think, 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.880 as I was trying to manage, you know, the job 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.200 of pinterest, trying to be a dad, and then my phone. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.680 I realized that I just lost control over my phone 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:41.040 and and and realized that it was controlling me. Maybe 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.600 what we were up to in terms of extracting attention, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.320 as as Tristan will say, UM might not might not 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.600 have a very happy ending on a lot of different dimensions, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.520 including you know, our own mental well being, but also 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.480 the impact that ultimately it could have on society. Tim, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.080 you recently testified before Congress and said that you believe 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.840 social media is driving us to the brink of civil war, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.960 which is quite dramatic. What do you mean by that, Well, 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:15.239 I just think that the services are polarizing us really 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.840 on almost every dimension. Um. They're polarizing us politically, They're 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.639 polarizing us in terms of how we view health issues 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.840 like COVID. They're polarizing us racially, I mean, and in 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.080 a sense like I think it's fair to say that 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.960 all of these issues around polarization existed to some degree 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.720 before social media. But I think we can we can 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.160 all agree that that polarization has accelerated. In fact, I'd 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.680 say the acceleration is accelerating, which is which is really scary. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.840 It seems to get worse every year and every month. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:56.120 We seem to be more and more divided. And I 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.200 think that the violence and division that we're seeing, I 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:05.240 believe these are precursor events to broader civil unrest that 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.080 could ultimately lead to civil war. I mean, that's quite 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.520 that's a huge statement. I mean, Sophia, would you agree 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.240 what we're talking about our histories of violence and oppression 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:24.159 in our country, that social media exacerbates and weaponizes against 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.120 the most vulnerable, against people who have historically been in 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.559 the crosshairs of violence in this country. It's really about 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.360 the society and the people, and then what the technology 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.520 is contributing to you or not. Now there's a tragic 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.640 irony in that most of the people tasked with talking 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.240 about the problem the social dilemma in the film are 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:47.760 white men. Tristan and Tim are two of them. Um 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.240 and white men are overrepresented at the companies that are 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.560 building these products and creating UM part of the problem. 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.400 As a woman of color, what would you have added, Well, 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.280 I would have backed up probably twenty year in their research, 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.919 because again I think that women in particular and people 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:06.960 of color have been doing the research in this area 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.400 for a long time. It's a little bit disheartening for 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.920 some of us to see the makers of the problems 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.480 in terms of people really actually working on product development 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.480 all of a sudden see the light when it starts 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.440 to affect their own communities or their own experiences, or 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.960 maybe their own moral um barometer, and then UM kind 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.360 of really narrow the conversation. I think there's an opportunity 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.559 with this film to in fact open up um the 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.080 landscape for fifty more films and books and graphic novels 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.080 and television shows, for many morning more voices. And I 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.080 think that's really the opportunity with a film like this. It's, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.120 you know, it's kind of cracked open the can, but 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.360 there's a lot lot more to pour out. How much 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.279 of this is technology and how much of this is 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.520 just human nature that technology and that these social platforms 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.800 simply amplify. There's a point in the film where Tristan 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:03.400 talks about how, um, it's not so much the technologies 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.320 per se, it's that the technologies really bring out the 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:12.520 worst in people and amplify the worst tendencies in people. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:17.600 Racism is is endemic, and it's been around UM for 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:23.120 thousands of years, but you know, we've really started to 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:28.920 see UM hate and violence around these issues just just 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:34.440 explode by virtue of these tools that that bring out 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.039 sort of the worst tendencies, or at least bring out 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.120 tendencies that are there but are now being brought out 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.280 into the into the light in a in a way 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.280 that's really corrosive. Now, we do have a statement from 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.480 Facebook on the film Um Facebook saying we should have 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.280 conversations about the impact of social media on our lives. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:57.360 But the social dilemma buries the substance in sensationalism. Rather 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.279 than offer a nuanced look at technology, it gives a 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.560 distorted view of how social media platforms work to create 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:09.440 a convenient scapegoat for what are difficult and complex societal problems. Tristan, 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.560 what's your reaction to that, Um, Yeah, we would expect 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:18.240 Facebook to respond in this way, um the UM. I 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.240 think the claim that Facebook would make in that statement 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.720 is We're holding up a mirror to your society. If 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.360 you don't like what you see in the mirror, we're 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.800 really sorry to tell you that was already there. But 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.680 the mirror they're holding up is a fun house mirror 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.960 that warps society because it amplifies certain characteristics and makes 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:42.080 some way more visible than others, specifically conflict, outrage, moral righteousness, etcetera. 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.480 Because those things get more clicks. And it's this race 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.320 to the bottom of the brainstem, this race to the 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.400 lizard brain, whether it is racism, inequality, poverty, or climate change. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.120 If we're all walking around is outraged, narcissistic, and addicted 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.800 people with low mental health and feeling overwhelmed, that's not 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.480 a society that can heal itself. It ample fies whatever 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.480 gets the most attention, which is just like driving down 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.800 the one oh one. And if we sort by what 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:06.960 gets the most attention, if I look at a car crash, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.640 Facebook and Google say, oh we you must love car crashes, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.640 and they give you more and more and more car crashes. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.200 And that's kind of why our society looks like it's this. 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:16.800 It's sort of gone crazy because that's not become just 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.760 a virtual reality. We started making choices on that reality. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.120 And even if you don't use these platforms, you still 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.360 live in a country that is living in that virtual reality. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.960 And voting based on those decisions, and then making and 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.280 bringing guns to street corners based on those decisions. So 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.800 I think we have to really look at the entire 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:37.800 consequences here. This is my conversation with Tim Kendall, former 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.800 head of monetization at Facebook and former president of Pinterest 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.520 now CEO of Moment, Sophia Noble, an associate professor at 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.040 u c l A and author of a book on 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.360 bias and technology, and Tristan Harris, former design ethicist at 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.760 Google now co founder of the Center for Humane Technology. 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.880 Up next, can we expect the makers of social media 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.440 to make changes on their own? What will it take? 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.520 Are the creators of these platforms really bad guys? I'm 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:19.720 Emily Chang. This is Bloomberg Studio one point out. What 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.400 I want people to know is that everything they're doing 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.560 online is being watched, is being tracked. Every single action 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:31.120 you take is carefully monitored and recorded. A lot of 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.000 people think Google is just a search box and Facebook 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.680 is just a place to see what my friends are doing. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.960 What they don't realize is there's entire teams of engineers 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:44.280 whose job is to use your psychology against you. That 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.000 was the co inventor of the Facebook like button was 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.079 the president of interest, Google, Twitter, Instagram. They were meaningful 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.960 changes happening around the world because of these platforms. I 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.559 think we were naive about the flip side of that coin. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.840 A number of guests in the film are asked, is 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.959 there one bad guy? And they all say no, no, no, 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.120 there's not just one bad guy. And at this point, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.040 let's take Mark Zuckerberg for example. He can see the 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.640 consequences of what he's built, but he is still building it. 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.040 Does that mean he's a bad guy. I think it 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:23.199 means he's negligent. His understanding is absolutely not keeping up 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.360 with the impact that his technology is having on the world. 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.200 And I think the best illustration of this is the 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:35.000 election happens in two thousand and sixteen, Facebook, a number 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.040 of ways, through bad actors and and algorithmic bias, tip 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.240 the election. A month later, he's asked what do you 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.600 think about that? He thinks it's preposterous, And two years 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:53.920 later he acknowledges the impact, acknowledges that Facebook likely did 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.360 tip the election, and then apologizes in front of Congress. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.200 But that's two years later. Tristan, what do you think 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.480 about Mark about the Google founders who have recently left 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.600 the company. Are they bad guys? I think I agree 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.840 with him that there's a lot of negligence. Each company 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.360 is different and the personalities that are involved are different. Um. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.080 I think that even if they were as enlightened as 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.360 they possibly could be, they when they speak, they sound 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.520 like hostages trapped in a hostage video, where nothing that 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.840 a hostage is saying makes any sense until you see 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.800 the person off stage holding a gun to their head, 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:28.760 which is their business model. I would say Jack Dorsey 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:30.959 appears to be trying to do the best that he can, 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.640 but in a very very complex and um uh, you know, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.320 unfortunate circumstance. And so that's why we actually need a 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.199 global cultural movement to address these problems, because the state 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.920 has to bind the market. This film is exciting to 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.160 me because it's the first time that we have a 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.600 hundred and ninety countries and thirty languages, I think, all 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.360 becoming awake to these problems at a at a massive scale. Now, Sophia, 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.960 here in Silicon Valley, we often glorify the founders of 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.640 these companies. As a Silicon Valley outside er, how do 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.840 you think we can hold them accountable. I think that 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.160 we've got to have a big time structural intervention. It's 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.840 going to require regulation, it's going to require repatriation of 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.360 the trillions of dollars they've made off of making these 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.480 problems and putting them back into the systems that can 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.120 actually take care of our society. We can't be so 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.920 dependent upon UM this sector or its leaders. Tim, I'm 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:23.480 sure you're still friends with a lot of people who 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:31.160 work at these companies. How have but how how have 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.439 your former colleagues reacted. I don't think fundamentally anyone is 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.199 a bad person who works there. Um. I do believe 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.920 they're negligent. I think they fundamentally believe that that their 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.480 platforms are doing net good in the world, and so 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:52.040 they look for the data that reinforces that. Now you 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.079 have had your critics, um. Brooke Hammer, Lying, a tech 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.400 communications Vetterman said of a number of the folks interviewed 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.680 in the film, most of them made a great deal 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.200 of money from the companies they're now criticizing. I mean 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.920 they made plane money, guys. She means enough money to 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.720 buy a plane. And while when you have a G 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.480 five at your disposal, it's really easy to sit there 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.160 and criticize. I asked them, why not give a bulk 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.160 of your wealth away to fight this, to undo the 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:22.480 damage you yourselves help create. Tim, I'm sure you made 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.680 some money in that decade. How do you reconcile that? 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.080 I think it's I think it's really fair criticism. I 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:33.439 hadn't read Brooks exact statement. Um, I've I've put ten 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:38.680 million dollars plus into this issue, and we've given away 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.840 millions of dollars to nonprofit organizations that are helping around 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.679 these issues. And our intentions to keep giving away a 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.360 lot of money and a big chunk of the money 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.240 that we made from these platforms. So look, I think 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.760 it's really fair criticism. Let's say Mark Zuckerberg wakes up 0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:01.160 tomorrow and says, I'm done, shuts down Facebook, no more Facebook. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.560 What happens is the world better or worse off? I 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.280 think it would be perfectly fine for Facebook to shut down. 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.960 I'm on the real Facebook oversight board. You know. I 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:17.120 think we're really interested in seeing some important interventions happened 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:23.200 quickly before democracy continues to collapse as we pummeled towards 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.560 the next presidential election in the United States. Um, but 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.040 you know, it's I think it's more complex than just 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.560 saying Facebook should shut down, although I think there are 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.600 many many people who would agree it probably should. But 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.560 if we stay on the current path, where there's no oversight, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:43.280 no regulation, no law, no responsibility, we can be guaranteed 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.760 that this is just the tip of the iceberg. So 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.200 what should the laws be? What should the government do? 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.200 If these companies aren't going to change on their own, 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.440 then should they be broken up? Should there be new laws? 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.720 I look at the amount of regulatory reform that we 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.680 need here as being on parallel with the financial crisis, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.840 in the sense that in the financial crisis, where you 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.920 had thinner and thinner slices of sort of junk bonds 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.400 being sold as if they were you know, high quality bonds, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.400 leading to a full scale house of cards collapse. I 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.040 think we've been selling fake, thinner and thinner slices of 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.600 junk attention assets, fake attention sold for fake clicks to 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.640 fake users, with fake reporting to advertisers, and we have 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.400 an entire sort of democratic collapse sitting on top of 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.240 the fact that this has been a predatory economy that 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.920 has um based on high you know, high risk activity, 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.560 recommending random things to users you don't know and you 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.160 don't speak the language to leading to a genocide. So 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.200 I think if you think about the scope or reform, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.520 we're not just saying let's pass this law or that law. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.840 We're saying, how do you get something more like Dodd 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:47.320 Frank comprehensive humane technology reform? How do you have um, 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:51.240 you know, comprehensive reform that enables competition, has more transparency, 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.280 accountability for harms, um, tax justice as Sophia is talking 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.720 about repatriating some of the money back into institutions that 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.480 have fallen apart um and and have that all add 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.360 up to a system of technology that reports to the 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.520 people as reports as opposed to reporting to the board 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.440 of directors and have them work in the service of people. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.360 You're listening to my conversation with Sophia Noble and Associate 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.040 professor at u c l A and author of a 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.400 best selling book on bias and technology. Tim Kendal, former 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.360 head of monetization at Facebook and former president of Pinterest 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.480 now CEO of moment and Tristan Harris, former design ethosist 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.520 at Google now co founder of the Center for Humane Technology. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.200 Coming up, we chart the path towards the social solution 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.040 is opting out of social media enough. I'm Emily Chang, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.880 this is Bloomberg Studio at one point out stay with Us. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.480 True to its name, the movie talks a lot about 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.560 the social dilemma, but not a lot about the social solutions. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.720 As the credits start to roll, Tristan, You're you're allowed 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.800 to offer one suggestion about turning off notifications, but really, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.320 in the short term, like while we wait for these 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.760 big changes that could take years to happen, what do 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.000 we do? Do we delete? Do we get rid of 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:25.160 our phones? Like? How do we navigate the day to day? 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.800 Even if you decide not to use these platforms and 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.040 you delete your accounts, people who are not on these 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.400 platforms can still experience life or death consequences because other 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.040 people who live in their in their country do. The 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.679 Muslim minority group through a Hinga and Myanmar who were 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.760 murdered um didn't have to be on Facebook to be 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.639 to be the to experience the consequences and persecuted because 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.760 of fake news that was spread about them on Facebook. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.560 The mob lynchings in India that we're spreading fake news 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.399 about this particular minority group that led to lynchings. They 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.800 didn't have to be on Facebook to experience that. And 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.000 when you think about teenagers who say, hey, I would 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.960 like to opt out of being on Instagram, and I 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:03.359 don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.760 be on TikTok anymore, they still go to a school 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:07.959 where all their kids and who's all the kids are 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.640 are ranking each other by who's popular based on how 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.200 how successful they are on TikTok. So the point is 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.720 that this has so entangled itself into our social fabric 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.359 and into our social status pipelines and into the development 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.040 of children that even if you opt out, that's not enough. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.240 One thing that can change at a fast enough clock 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:29.199 rate is culture, meaning a common like cultural doctrine for 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.960 a humane way to live in an inhumane technology infrastructure. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.639 And I think that's kind of something we have to 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.119 co create together. Is a non violent communication protocol or 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.400 a humane protocol for living on in humane platforms. There's many, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.520 many more recommendations on humane tech dot com. I think 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.760 there's a lot of ways that we need to intervene. 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:48.840 I will tell you though, that you know, putting it 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.040 back on the public and saying you know, it's your 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.760 fault you didn't um take the phone out of your 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.960 kid's hand, or you you know, you parent are wrong 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.359 because you, you know, had too much screen time going 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:04.480 with your kid. I think is really the most powerfully 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.239 disingenuous kind of framing there is. It's like, you know, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.879 if you if you don't have any healthy food in 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.960 your community and you don't have any grocery stores, and 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.320 all there is is fast food, and then you say, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.920 shame on you for feeding your kid McDonald's or corporate 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.600 industry food. It's just not fair. You know. It only 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.720 took us small handful of people to really convince Congress 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.960 and state legislatures in local municipalities that smoking was terrible. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.439 You know, my students can't even remember. They weren't alive 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.040 at the time, but some of us on this call, 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.840 maybe we're you know, I'm sure that my mom probably 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.399 smoked a pack of cigarettes after she gave birth to me. 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.720 It's probable that the doctors and the nurses were smoking 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.480 in the hospital in the seventies when I was born, 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:49.920 And so we have to ask the question, like, how 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.320 did we go from that to what we have now, 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.080 which is a total paradigm shift, and so I agree 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.399 we need cultural shift, but that was just strategic public 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.720 policy that said, even if you're not a smoker, there's 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:06.320 still tertiary negative effects that happen from second hand smoke 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.120 or from these systems that right neglect UM the broader 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.800 public concerns. That's the kind of model we need to 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.840 think about. And I think look at as we're looking 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.080 at the larger tech sector, and I think there's a 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.399 lot of promise and opportunity to make change. You've got 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.000 the House and the Senate scrutinizing big tech right now. 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.359 Should these companies be broken up? Yeah, I think I 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.960 think there's a there's a you know, a monopoly conversation 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.959 that needs to happen. I also think that there is 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.800 an interesting page to be taken out of sort of 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.359 um auto manufacturers. And what I mean by that is 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:44.720 that auto manufacturers were addicted to the fossil fuel industry, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.920 and they were incentivized to move to electric because it 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.719 was better for the world and it was better for people. 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.920 And so I do wonder if there is a possibility 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.040 and a path that could be co created between these 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.920 tech companies and governments all over the world where incentives 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.760 could be put in place to segue off of an 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:11.399 attention based business model by e fossil fuels in hopes 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:15.080 of finding what is the electric and solar and green 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:19.359 model and how do we work together to get there? 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:24.240 If technology is advancing exponentially only going to get better 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.480 at manipulating us, can we actually INTERVENE I'm sorry, I 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.000 don't think the companies will change from within. I think 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:36.440 that when you have a product that creates so much 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:43.879 consumer and public harm, it's actually unsafe UM products. Until 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:48.240 those are regulated and contained as unsafe, they will continue. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.360 Why wouldn't they? I mean again, we're talking about billionaires 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.639 adding billions to their coffers right now, so there's no 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.600 incentive for them to stop the model. And they're also 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.439 quite frankly so insulated, um, you know, with their wealth 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.719 from ever even being affected by the harms. So we 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.159 sat they don't even let their own children engage with 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.000 the technologies that they make. So we know that the 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.760 makers are not going to be the source of the intervention. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.440 It's going to require an informed public, electorates, policymakers, regulators 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.440 around the world. UM, it's going to take those kinds 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.439 of actions and of course the culture shift that we 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.080 need um in order to see the changes that we want. Tim, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.480 if you could say something to Mark Zuckerberg right now, 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:35.720 one thing he could do, what would it be, It's 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.919 change your business model. Start having the conversation at Facebook 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.840 about how the business model is corrosive and what could 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.760 be the path to segue off of an attention based 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:49.720 business model to something else that is aligned with the 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:54.520 public good, like a subscription model. Possibly a subscription model 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.600 with governments all over the world subsidizing in the same 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.760 way that they subsidize false so fuel shifting to you know, 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.600 more green technologies. I think that is I think that 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.480 may be our only path out of this. Where are 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.520 we in five to ten years do you believe will 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:14.919 be better off or worse off? I don't know if 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.560 we're going to make it another year. Frankly, if we 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.600 don't change these things immediately, I am deeply concerned. And 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:23.960