WEBVTT - Challenging the Narrative that Diversity Equals a Lack of Qualifications 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.600 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.640 with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.360 Okay, well this is related to politics. Carol a story 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.520 on the Bloomberg earlier today. This by our own Jeff Green, 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.520 who covers diversity for Bloomberg News. It's about Robbie Starbuck. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.600 Some call him the anti DEI influencer. He's got a 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.880 message for companies who are making public but surface changes 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.000 to their diversity policies. You are not off the hook. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.159 Starbuck has claimed victory for changes to DEI policies at 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.519 more than fifteen companies, from Walmart to Toyota, and he's 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.320 continuing to check on companies to make sure that the 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.040 retreat is real. Curious what Sherry Dunn thinks about this. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.200 She's DEI leader at ITBOM Training and Consulting. It provides 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.320 online education classes for DEI. She's also a fellow at 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.640 the American Leadership Forum. She's got a brand new book out. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:04.200 It's called Qualified, How competency checking and race collide at work. 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.480 She joins us this afternoon, Cherry, good to have you 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.839 with us. Congratulations on the book. Thank you what's happening 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.679 out of Washington when it comes to DEI is something 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.400 that a lot of companies right now are responding to. 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.559 They're saying, hey, we are rolling back our DEI programs. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:22.600 How do you respond to that? 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.640 Yeah, Well, I would say, first of all, Robbie Starbuck 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.680 doesn't have a lot degree. He is someone who has 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.800 elevated himself and been elevated in the media to have 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.920 way more knowledge and influence than he does. Diversity, ecre inclusion, 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:42.000 affirmative action in the workplace has not been outlawed. In fact, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.720 a recent federal judge put a hold on many of 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:51.760 the anti DEI executive orders, primarily citing the First Amendment. Now, 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.400 corporations have a right, as we know from citizens United, 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:02.320 to express themselves politically, and so the idea that corporations 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.000 have to fundamentally alter what are legal elements of having 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:13.320 a diverse workplace is hysteria. And now that hysteria has worked, 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:16.360 and that hysteria has been very effective, but that is 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.120 exactly what it is, hysteria. And there are companies we 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.320 have seen who where their shareholders have said, no, we're 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.760 not going to abandon our principles and our workplace culture initiatives, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.720 because essentially that's what they are. Any corporation or business 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.480 in this country that works internationally has been doing what 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:41.000 we call diversity equity inclusion for years. That means understanding 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.760 the workforce that they have, being inclusive of their needs, 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.600 being equitable in their pay. So, you know, my response 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.760 to Robbie Starbuck and to people who fold, is that 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.600 you're folding because you want to, because he does not have, 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.480 in fact, the weight of law him on his side 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.320 as it relates to workplace Do. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.320 You think he has the weight of the way that 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:07.400 Americans feel about these policies? As Carol mentioned earlier, we 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:12.000 did have close to half the country vote for the president, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.400 and part of that platform did include the idea of 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.000 rolling back what he said his words are woke policies. 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.000 So a couple of things. The fifty percent of the 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.600 people who voted, so that's not fifty percent of America. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.320 So we do have people who don't vote a significant number, 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.520 and you know they may have woken up on one 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.359 of these days since January feeling some kind of way 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.320 about not having voted. But of those who voted, that 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.760 percentage of people they voted on what they believe. The 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:48.000 mis and disinformation about diversity ecre inclusion is perhaps what 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.200 some people now have come to believe, or rather, I 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.040 should say come to understand, is that their son or 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.120 daughter who is autistic and who has accommodations in the 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.360 workplace is part of diversity ecreinclusion. Child who has ADHD, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.080 who has accommodations in the workplace is part of diversity 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.520 ec inclusion. The diversity ecre inclusion in no way form 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.000 requires hiring quote unquote unqualified people. But I will say 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:16.680 that there has been an extremely effective disinformation campaign by 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.560 Robbie Starbuck, the Claremont Institute and others who have convinced 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.520 a portion and to your point, a portion of those 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:28.039 who did vote, that somehow this scary monster is causing 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.400 them issues, when in fact, for almost every single American 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.680 policies that we categorize as DEI are things that they 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:37.440 benefit from. 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.760 One thing I wanted to ask you, because I feel 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.280 like this is part of the issue, or. 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:43.160 Some would say it is. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.320 When did diversity sherry come to be equated with a 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.679 lack of qualifications, whether it's white, whether it's men, women, 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.839 whether it's like take it wherever you may go, yes. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.600 Well, so in the book, I take us all the 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.400 way back, because so much about who we are goes 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.920 back to our origin story, right, And so you know, 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.279 during reconstruction in the United States, something we don't study much, 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.520 which is a bit of a problem here. But during reconstruction, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.200 the North came to the South to help reconstruct the 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:20.839 South and provide opportunities for not just newly freed enslaved people, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.599 but folks who had been free in the North, black 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.960 folks who came to the South, and immediately their presence 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:34.320 was classify as unqualified, unqualified, an intelligent, uncapable of participation. 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.440 And at the end of reconstruction, which brings in Jim Crow, 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.640 which goes until my lifetime, until I'm born in sixty eight, 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.320 the same narrative. So reconstruction ends and black congress people 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.400 locally are kicked out of office in South Carolina, kicked 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.440 out of office federally under the pretense that they are 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:57.440 unqualified to participate in the democratic process. So this is 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.479 a historical story when it comes to African Americans, and 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:07.400 any attempt to require or to pry open just the 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.680 door of opportunity has been met. I mean Andrew Jackson. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.440 I think it is Jackson that Johnson the President said, 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.000 you know, and this is after slavery, that any attempts 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.840 to help the formerly enslave were reverse discrimination. So that's 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.479 the first reverse discrimination argument. So it really seems to 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.440 be a response to pushes to have a multi racial, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.760 multi inclusive workplace in society and has nothing to do 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.839 with the modality and everything to do with the ultimate aims. 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.359 So, in your work that you do as a consultant 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.800 for DEI are you less busy, more busy than you 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.480 were before the narrative started to shift? 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.919 You know, that's a great question. So I'm in Oregon, 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.960 so I want to say that, so you know, I'm 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.159 not in certain states where the states have outlawed the work. 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.680 So I think there is a pullback. I think there 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.120 is a fear. I know people are getting bad advice 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.680 from attorneys. I had a client say to me that 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:07.839 they had a law firm tell them that affirmative action 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.720 no longer existed and they can't recruit from HBCUs. 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:12.240 Now you should know, you did. You did go to 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:13.560 law school, so you know you can. 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.240 I did go to law school. I should Northwestern, Yes, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.480 Northwestern Princeville Law School, right, So so to say to 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.720 have a law firm say that to a client, which 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.320 just shocking, you know. And so I've seen more coaching. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.440 I'm doing more individual coaching, and of course right now 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.960 I'm promoting my book and I'm doing that kind of work. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.400 But I would say overall, there's definitely been a depression 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.440 in the market for the work, which is unfortunate because 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.560 my work is also about cross cultural communication, how we 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.000 communicate better in the workplace across our differences. My work 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.120 is also about business strategy. I worked with a top 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.840 consumer brand company, UH to figure out how to have 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.160 a blow dryer that's more accessible. That's that's more money, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.560 you know, more market share. So it's unfortunate that this 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.119 kind of chilling. You are definitely seeing it. But then again, 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.760 like I said, I'm in a state where we'll probably 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.400 see it less because we have a lot more state 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.960 level protection and desire to continue in this work. 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:14.800 Is that is that where it happens. Does it happen 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.080 at the state level, because it's it's getting at the 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.960 federal level. We know what's happening. So is this going 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:20.840 to be up to the states. 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.520 Well, I think partly the states create that fear. And 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.680 you know in Texas, Texas itself is enacting its own 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.000 laws and then the federal so that's creating a lot 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.920 more of that you know, fear tunnel of fear. But 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.560 I would say that states will try and it sounds 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.880 like this administration no longer believes in states rights when 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.040 it comes to certain things, and so consequently states may 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.880 have to go to court for their ability. And I 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.080 also think corporations are going to have to put on 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.840 their big boy and big girl pants. Citizens Juanita has 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.640 given them a roadmap, now, you know, Citizens Unita as 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:01.200 a case just in the very simple explanation holds that 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.680 corporations have the ability to have political speech. And I 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:10.080 would say that attempts to prevent a corporation from engaging 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.800 in diversity, equity inclusion work, which which we can define 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:19.199 multiple ways, puts them at a market disadvantage both locally 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.840 and internationally. And so I actually think corporations are going 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:24.560 to have to put their big boy and big girl 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.160 pants on and take some of these issues to the mat. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.600 There is no world where DEI mandated hiring of unqualified people. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.800 That is a myth, that's the same myth that came 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.920 with affirmative action. What it says is how can we 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.560 make sure and the EEO supports this, the Equal Employment 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.800 Opportunity Acts of courts, This is how can we make 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:49.280 sure that we are reflecting our communities, that we are recruiting, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:51.599 and that we are making opportunities for advancement that is 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.559 currently all legal. None of that is illegal, and so 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.320 corporations need to lean into that, and they need to 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.559 be willing to push back because if after DEI, what's next, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.920 what's next with the overreach into what you do as 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:04.520 a corporation. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.160 Hey, one last question, Cherry. Since you are working with 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.600 companies so you have some front seat to what they 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.360 are actually doing. Are you finding your services more in 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:19.400 demand than ever before? And are you seeing some fear 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.640 though in the corporate community about policies that might get 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.079 the attention of the White House. 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.840 Yeah, definitely seeing fear, I think. And that's that's the 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.959 whole purpose is to create this fear based situation where 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.080 and I hate to use phrase, but comply in advance right, 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.680 But it's to create a fear based situation where people 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.319 and again it's not the law. The law has the 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:46.120 affirmative action in the workplace's not outlawed. The Supreme Court 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.959 decision in Harvard is a very specific, narrow decision related 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.640 to admissions in colleges. It's going to take a separate 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.839 Supreme Court decision should it come regarding workplace. So yes, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.880 a lot of fear, a lot of questions about lang 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.000 which what language can you use? What can you say? 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.280 What can you not say? And like I said, I 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:12.199 find myself countering some of the supposed guidance people are 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.959 getting from a law firms and lawyers who should know better. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.680 But lawyers do tend to be very conservative, so they're 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:19.880 again trying to get people to comply in advance. But 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.040 in this case, I just urge companies not to do 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.319 this because this is not just a moral issue. It's 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.240 also a business issue. And you know this is the 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.520 target is seeing that other companies are seeing that. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:35.960 All right, we have to leave it there. I'm glad 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.280 we could get some time with you. Obviously a very 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.439 relevant conversation topic in our environment. Sary, Thank you so much. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:47.320 Sary Dunn, diversity, equity and Inclusion leader at ITBOM Training 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.559 and Consulting. Her new book is called Qualified How competency 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.040 checking and race collide at work.