Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek
Speaker 1: with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: Okay, well this is related to politics. Carol a story
Speaker 2: on the Bloomberg earlier today. This by our own Jeff Green,
Speaker 2: who covers diversity for Bloomberg News. It's about Robbie Starbuck.
Speaker 2: Some call him the anti DEI influencer. He's got a
Speaker 2: message for companies who are making public but surface changes
Speaker 2: to their diversity policies. You are not off the hook.
Speaker 2: Starbuck has claimed victory for changes to DEI policies at
Speaker 2: more than fifteen companies, from Walmart to Toyota, and he's
Speaker 2: continuing to check on companies to make sure that the
Speaker 2: retreat is real. Curious what Sherry Dunn thinks about this.
Speaker 2: She's DEI leader at ITBOM Training and Consulting. It provides
Speaker 2: online education classes for DEI. She's also a fellow at
Speaker 2: the American Leadership Forum. She's got a brand new book out.
Speaker 2: It's called Qualified, How competency checking and race collide at work.
Speaker 2: She joins us this afternoon, Cherry, good to have you
Speaker 2: with us. Congratulations on the book. Thank you what's happening
Speaker 2: out of Washington when it comes to DEI is something
Speaker 2: that a lot of companies right now are responding to.
Speaker 2: They're saying, hey, we are rolling back our DEI programs.
Speaker 2: How do you respond to that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I would say, first of all, Robbie Starbuck
Speaker 3: doesn't have a lot degree. He is someone who has
Speaker 3: elevated himself and been elevated in the media to have
Speaker 3: way more knowledge and influence than he does. Diversity, ecre inclusion,
Speaker 3: affirmative action in the workplace has not been outlawed. In fact,
Speaker 3: a recent federal judge put a hold on many of
Speaker 3: the anti DEI executive orders, primarily citing the First Amendment. Now,
Speaker 3: corporations have a right, as we know from citizens United,
Speaker 3: to express themselves politically, and so the idea that corporations
Speaker 3: have to fundamentally alter what are legal elements of having
Speaker 3: a diverse workplace is hysteria. And now that hysteria has worked,
Speaker 3: and that hysteria has been very effective, but that is
Speaker 3: exactly what it is, hysteria. And there are companies we
Speaker 3: have seen who where their shareholders have said, no, we're
Speaker 3: not going to abandon our principles and our workplace culture initiatives,
Speaker 3: because essentially that's what they are. Any corporation or business
Speaker 3: in this country that works internationally has been doing what
Speaker 3: we call diversity equity inclusion for years. That means understanding
Speaker 3: the workforce that they have, being inclusive of their needs,
Speaker 3: being equitable in their pay. So, you know, my response
Speaker 3: to Robbie Starbuck and to people who fold, is that
Speaker 3: you're folding because you want to, because he does not have,
Speaker 3: in fact, the weight of law him on his side
Speaker 3: as it relates to workplace Do.
Speaker 2: You think he has the weight of the way that
Speaker 2: Americans feel about these policies? As Carol mentioned earlier, we
Speaker 2: did have close to half the country vote for the president,
Speaker 2: and part of that platform did include the idea of
Speaker 2: rolling back what he said his words are woke policies.
Speaker 3: So a couple of things. The fifty percent of the
Speaker 3: people who voted, so that's not fifty percent of America.
Speaker 3: So we do have people who don't vote a significant number,
Speaker 3: and you know they may have woken up on one
Speaker 3: of these days since January feeling some kind of way
Speaker 3: about not having voted. But of those who voted, that
Speaker 3: percentage of people they voted on what they believe. The
Speaker 3: mis and disinformation about diversity ecre inclusion is perhaps what
Speaker 3: some people now have come to believe, or rather, I
Speaker 3: should say come to understand, is that their son or
Speaker 3: daughter who is autistic and who has accommodations in the
Speaker 3: workplace is part of diversity ecreinclusion. Child who has ADHD,
Speaker 3: who has accommodations in the workplace is part of diversity
Speaker 3: ec inclusion. The diversity ecre inclusion in no way form
Speaker 3: requires hiring quote unquote unqualified people. But I will say
Speaker 3: that there has been an extremely effective disinformation campaign by
Speaker 3: Robbie Starbuck, the Claremont Institute and others who have convinced
Speaker 3: a portion and to your point, a portion of those
Speaker 3: who did vote, that somehow this scary monster is causing
Speaker 3: them issues, when in fact, for almost every single American
Speaker 3: policies that we categorize as DEI are things that they
Speaker 3: benefit from.
Speaker 4: One thing I wanted to ask you, because I feel
Speaker 4: like this is part of the issue, or.
Speaker 3: Some would say it is.
Speaker 4: When did diversity sherry come to be equated with a
Speaker 4: lack of qualifications, whether it's white, whether it's men, women,
Speaker 4: whether it's like take it wherever you may go, yes.
Speaker 3: Well, so in the book, I take us all the
Speaker 3: way back, because so much about who we are goes
Speaker 3: back to our origin story, right, And so you know,
Speaker 3: during reconstruction in the United States, something we don't study much,
Speaker 3: which is a bit of a problem here. But during reconstruction,
Speaker 3: the North came to the South to help reconstruct the
Speaker 3: South and provide opportunities for not just newly freed enslaved people,
Speaker 3: but folks who had been free in the North, black
Speaker 3: folks who came to the South, and immediately their presence
Speaker 3: was classify as unqualified, unqualified, an intelligent, uncapable of participation.
Speaker 3: And at the end of reconstruction, which brings in Jim Crow,
Speaker 3: which goes until my lifetime, until I'm born in sixty eight,
Speaker 3: the same narrative. So reconstruction ends and black congress people
Speaker 3: locally are kicked out of office in South Carolina, kicked
Speaker 3: out of office federally under the pretense that they are
Speaker 3: unqualified to participate in the democratic process. So this is
Speaker 3: a historical story when it comes to African Americans, and
Speaker 3: any attempt to require or to pry open just the
Speaker 3: door of opportunity has been met. I mean Andrew Jackson.
Speaker 3: I think it is Jackson that Johnson the President said,
Speaker 3: you know, and this is after slavery, that any attempts
Speaker 3: to help the formerly enslave were reverse discrimination. So that's
Speaker 3: the first reverse discrimination argument. So it really seems to
Speaker 3: be a response to pushes to have a multi racial,
Speaker 3: multi inclusive workplace in society and has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with the modality and everything to do with the ultimate aims.
Speaker 2: So, in your work that you do as a consultant
Speaker 2: for DEI are you less busy, more busy than you
Speaker 2: were before the narrative started to shift?
Speaker 3: You know, that's a great question. So I'm in Oregon,
Speaker 3: so I want to say that, so you know, I'm
Speaker 3: not in certain states where the states have outlawed the work.
Speaker 3: So I think there is a pullback. I think there
Speaker 3: is a fear. I know people are getting bad advice
Speaker 3: from attorneys. I had a client say to me that
Speaker 3: they had a law firm tell them that affirmative action
Speaker 3: no longer existed and they can't recruit from HBCUs.
Speaker 2: Now you should know, you did. You did go to
Speaker 2: law school, so you know you can.
Speaker 3: I did go to law school. I should Northwestern, Yes,
Speaker 3: Northwestern Princeville Law School, right, So so to say to
Speaker 3: have a law firm say that to a client, which
Speaker 3: just shocking, you know. And so I've seen more coaching.
Speaker 3: I'm doing more individual coaching, and of course right now
Speaker 3: I'm promoting my book and I'm doing that kind of work.
Speaker 3: But I would say overall, there's definitely been a depression
Speaker 3: in the market for the work, which is unfortunate because
Speaker 3: my work is also about cross cultural communication, how we
Speaker 3: communicate better in the workplace across our differences. My work
Speaker 3: is also about business strategy. I worked with a top
Speaker 3: consumer brand company, UH to figure out how to have
Speaker 3: a blow dryer that's more accessible. That's that's more money,
Speaker 3: you know, more market share. So it's unfortunate that this
Speaker 3: kind of chilling. You are definitely seeing it. But then again,
Speaker 3: like I said, I'm in a state where we'll probably
Speaker 3: see it less because we have a lot more state
Speaker 3: level protection and desire to continue in this work.
Speaker 2: Is that is that where it happens. Does it happen
Speaker 2: at the state level, because it's it's getting at the
Speaker 2: federal level. We know what's happening. So is this going
Speaker 2: to be up to the states.
Speaker 3: Well, I think partly the states create that fear. And
Speaker 3: you know in Texas, Texas itself is enacting its own
Speaker 3: laws and then the federal so that's creating a lot
Speaker 3: more of that you know, fear tunnel of fear. But
Speaker 3: I would say that states will try and it sounds
Speaker 3: like this administration no longer believes in states rights when
Speaker 3: it comes to certain things, and so consequently states may
Speaker 3: have to go to court for their ability. And I
Speaker 3: also think corporations are going to have to put on
Speaker 3: their big boy and big girl pants. Citizens Juanita has
Speaker 3: given them a roadmap, now, you know, Citizens Unita as
Speaker 3: a case just in the very simple explanation holds that
Speaker 3: corporations have the ability to have political speech. And I
Speaker 3: would say that attempts to prevent a corporation from engaging
Speaker 3: in diversity, equity inclusion work, which which we can define
Speaker 3: multiple ways, puts them at a market disadvantage both locally
Speaker 3: and internationally. And so I actually think corporations are going
Speaker 3: to have to put their big boy and big girl
Speaker 3: pants on and take some of these issues to the mat.
Speaker 3: There is no world where DEI mandated hiring of unqualified people.
Speaker 3: That is a myth, that's the same myth that came
Speaker 3: with affirmative action. What it says is how can we
Speaker 3: make sure and the EEO supports this, the Equal Employment
Speaker 3: Opportunity Acts of courts, This is how can we make
Speaker 3: sure that we are reflecting our communities, that we are recruiting,
Speaker 3: and that we are making opportunities for advancement that is
Speaker 3: currently all legal. None of that is illegal, and so
Speaker 3: corporations need to lean into that, and they need to
Speaker 3: be willing to push back because if after DEI, what's next,
Speaker 3: what's next with the overreach into what you do as
Speaker 3: a corporation.
Speaker 4: Hey, one last question, Cherry. Since you are working with
Speaker 4: companies so you have some front seat to what they
Speaker 4: are actually doing. Are you finding your services more in
Speaker 4: demand than ever before? And are you seeing some fear
Speaker 4: though in the corporate community about policies that might get
Speaker 4: the attention of the White House.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely seeing fear, I think. And that's that's the
Speaker 3: whole purpose is to create this fear based situation where
Speaker 3: and I hate to use phrase, but comply in advance right,
Speaker 3: But it's to create a fear based situation where people
Speaker 3: and again it's not the law. The law has the
Speaker 3: affirmative action in the workplace's not outlawed. The Supreme Court
Speaker 3: decision in Harvard is a very specific, narrow decision related
Speaker 3: to admissions in colleges. It's going to take a separate
Speaker 3: Supreme Court decision should it come regarding workplace. So yes,
Speaker 3: a lot of fear, a lot of questions about lang
Speaker 3: which what language can you use? What can you say?
Speaker 3: What can you not say? And like I said, I
Speaker 3: find myself countering some of the supposed guidance people are
Speaker 3: getting from a law firms and lawyers who should know better.
Speaker 3: But lawyers do tend to be very conservative, so they're
Speaker 3: again trying to get people to comply in advance. But
Speaker 3: in this case, I just urge companies not to do
Speaker 3: this because this is not just a moral issue. It's
Speaker 3: also a business issue. And you know this is the
Speaker 3: target is seeing that other companies are seeing that.
Speaker 4: All right, we have to leave it there. I'm glad
Speaker 4: we could get some time with you. Obviously a very
Speaker 4: relevant conversation topic in our environment. Sary, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Sary Dunn, diversity, equity and Inclusion leader at ITBOM Training
Speaker 4: and Consulting. Her new book is called Qualified How competency
Speaker 4: checking and race collide at work.