Speaker 1: Very special programming today featuring Lonnie Bunch, he's the fourteenth
Speaker 1: Secretary of the Smithsonian, and David Rubinstein, host of the
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein Show, a peer to peer conversations. Speaks here
Speaker 1: from the Udvar Hazy Center that's part of the Smithsonian
Speaker 1: Museum and it's near Dallas Airport. That's right in. Rubinstein
Speaker 1: begins here by asking Bunch about being the first historian
Speaker 1: and the first black person selected as the head of
Speaker 1: the museum complex. Let's listen in. That's right. And I'm
Speaker 1: very proud and glad to be with you today. And
Speaker 1: I should disclose that I was the chairman of the
Speaker 1: Smithsonian at one point. I'm still on the board of
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, but I will ask tough questions anyway. I
Speaker 1: appreciate that. So, now that you've been the secretary for
Speaker 1: a while, um, is the job as good as you
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be? And you're happy you haven't.
Speaker 1: I think that no one knew what it was like
Speaker 1: to lead during a pandemic. But what has happened is
Speaker 1: as a result of that, I really learned the wonders
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. When it comes together, the Smithsony is
Speaker 1: often a conglaborative, museums and research centers um and that
Speaker 1: doesn't always blend. But because of this pandemic, people have
Speaker 1: come together, cross lines, brought their creativity scientists, historians, educators.
Speaker 1: So for me, I'm really glad because I'm getting to
Speaker 1: see what the Smithsonian does, even in the most difficult
Speaker 1: of times, when it comes together and brings its creativity
Speaker 1: to bear. How did you operate during the COVID nineteen situation?
Speaker 1: What did you do in terms of operating the zoo
Speaker 1: and all the research institutions and your nineteen museums. What
Speaker 1: I realized is that once we shut down the buildings,
Speaker 1: that I needed the Smithsonian to still be operating. So
Speaker 1: we really put went to everything online. We created educational opportunities,
Speaker 1: portals that would allow people to educators to get our science,
Speaker 1: our history, our art. We've made it so that scholars
Speaker 1: could continue to do the research, the scientists could do
Speaker 1: the work they needed to do. But the reality is
Speaker 1: that we recognize that now as a result of this virus,
Speaker 1: we've got to rethink so much about the Smithsonian. We've
Speaker 1: got to rethink about how we tell a work more effectively.
Speaker 1: We've got to think about once people come back. What
Speaker 1: does social distancing meaning a museum? Because, as you know,
Speaker 1: the major thing that happens in a museum is people
Speaker 1: who don't know each other come together around an artifact
Speaker 1: like the Shuttle. UM. And so are people gonna want
Speaker 1: to come together um in a time of pandemic? So
Speaker 1: we're really thinking about how do we create community even
Speaker 1: in with social distancing. So the Smithsonian is not yet open.
Speaker 1: You have two parts of it open. This museum is
Speaker 1: open and the National Zoo is opened, right, Um? Why
Speaker 1: did you open those two? First? I wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to figure out how do we open the rest
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. The zoo because it's outdoors, um, and
Speaker 1: that was easier UM. But also this museum because it's
Speaker 1: large and it also has parking, because there were issues
Speaker 1: of transportation. So basically these were the test case which
Speaker 1: will then if the if the virus then begins to
Speaker 1: go down to allow us slowly to open the rest
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. Now where did you operate from when
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen was prevalent, Well, be coast there were some
Speaker 1: guards that had to work. I thought I would go
Speaker 1: into the office, but I realized that if I went
Speaker 1: to the office, so many other people would come in.
Speaker 1: So I ended up working from home and I learned
Speaker 1: to master zoom um and sort of other technologies I'm
Speaker 1: still fighting with, but basically work from home every day now.
Speaker 1: Museums have been around for thousands of years, but now
Speaker 1: with zoom and virtual technologies, why don't we really need museums.
Speaker 1: Why can't you just look on the screen and see
Speaker 1: what you need to say? I think there is something
Speaker 1: powerful about the object. I mean, the fact that you
Speaker 1: can see the Space Shuttle um right in front of
Speaker 1: you is really powerful. You feel the connection. I've seen
Speaker 1: throughout my career people stand in front of a copy
Speaker 1: of the Emancipation Proclamation or Chuck Berry's candy Apple red Cadillac,
Speaker 1: and it stimulates conversation. So that, in essence, what we
Speaker 1: should do with the Smithsonian is find the right tension
Speaker 1: between tradition and innovation. We have to recognize that the
Speaker 1: traditional stuff is good and we want people to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: But now we also recognized it as a result of
Speaker 1: the pandemic, more people are comfortable receiving content digitally. So
Speaker 1: it really means that we just need to find the
Speaker 1: right balance between serving the millions that will never get
Speaker 1: to a museum, and the millions that actually come to
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. Now, during the COVID closing of the museums,
Speaker 1: we had some race riots in Washington and other cities
Speaker 1: around the country, and reaction to the death of a
Speaker 1: number of people uh such as George Floyd. Um, how
Speaker 1: is the Smithsonian reacting to that? I thought it was
Speaker 1: really important to realize that in some ways, the Smithsonian
Speaker 1: is the glue that holds a nation together, and it's
Speaker 1: the kind of place that can bring people of different
Speaker 1: political points of view together. So when when all of
Speaker 1: the sort of angst and the pains happened as a
Speaker 1: result of the murder of George Floyd and others, I
Speaker 1: realized that the Smithsonian had a role to pay, that
Speaker 1: we should be a place that would help the public
Speaker 1: grapple with the things that have divided us. So one
Speaker 1: of the things we did was we got support from
Speaker 1: Bank of American created a program that looks at race,
Speaker 1: community and our shared future to basically say, how do
Speaker 1: we create town halls an opportunity for people to come
Speaker 1: together to talk about what is divided us? How do
Speaker 1: we use the resource of the Smithsonian our expertise on
Speaker 1: African American culture to give people the kind of historical
Speaker 1: guidance to help them live their lives. Now, the Smithsonian itself,
Speaker 1: what about the diversity in the Smithsonian workforce and your
Speaker 1: executives who helped run the museums. I think the Smithsonian,
Speaker 1: like many places, has a lot of work to do. UM.
Speaker 1: I'm very pleased that we've got some diverse leadership. UM,
Speaker 1: we've got strong, diverse, playful, and different parts of the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1: But I think that the Smithsonian needs to do a
Speaker 1: better job because if we're going to help the public
Speaker 1: grap with these issues, we've got to model it. Now.
Speaker 1: There's a story about the secretary of the Smithsonian when
Speaker 1: they had the Lafayette Park riots or whatever you wanna
Speaker 1: call them, that he was wandering around looking for artifacts
Speaker 1: he could pick up and take to the Smithsonian. Any
Speaker 1: truth of that, Old curators can't break their habits. I
Speaker 1: was down um at Lafayette Square talking to people looking
Speaker 1: at some of the materials on the walls, collecting some
Speaker 1: for the Smithsonian, but really directing others, saying here's some
Speaker 1: stuff we should have. Well, you're walking around there and
Speaker 1: you're saying I'm the secretary of the Smithsonian. Can I
Speaker 1: have this? And the police are saying, how sure? I
Speaker 1: had to show my idea? Okay, so you've got you
Speaker 1: didn't get arrested. So what's the biggest challenge you have
Speaker 1: at the Smithsonian right now other than getting ready for
Speaker 1: an opening again after COVID, what's the biggest challenge of fundraising? Gillingly,
Speaker 1: Members of Congress, what is the biggest I think first
Speaker 1: of all the challenges that to make sure that the
Speaker 1: Smithsonian has the stable funding it needs. Because of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: We've lost millions of dollars. People aren't going to the
Speaker 1: restaurants and shops, which has an impact on our research
Speaker 1: and on staff. So really trying to make sure we
Speaker 1: have the strongest financial model, because what it really means
Speaker 1: is we've got to rethink some things. So rather than
Speaker 1: just reopen our shops, we've got to build more e commerce.
Speaker 1: So this is really allowing us to think creatively about
Speaker 1: what the Smithsonian should be. So let's talk about your
Speaker 1: background a moment um. You grew up in New Jersey,
Speaker 1: in the Garden State, Okay, in the Garden State, and
Speaker 1: what did you want to be when you're growing up,
Speaker 1: I assume not the secretary of the Smithsonian, right. I
Speaker 1: didn't want I didn't know what the Smithsonian was, but
Speaker 1: I wanted to do something with history. I've always loved history.
Speaker 1: And the story that is an absolutely true story, is
Speaker 1: that my grandfather died the day before I turned five,
Speaker 1: and he would read to me, and he would read
Speaker 1: books and one day was reading a book and it
Speaker 1: had a picture of school children, um and it was
Speaker 1: probably from the eighteen sixties, and he said to me
Speaker 1: that the picture said unidentified children. And then he said
Speaker 1: something I've never forgotten. He said, isn't it a shame
Speaker 1: people could live, their lives, die, and all that says
Speaker 1: it's unidentified. And that got me trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how do I understand what their lives were like? And
Speaker 1: I began to look at photographs as a little kid
Speaker 1: and try to imagine what were their jobs? Were they happy?
Speaker 1: And it got me interested in history. So that was
Speaker 1: the first step. And the second step was growing up
Speaker 1: in the town I grew up in. There were very
Speaker 1: few African Americans. In fact, I was only African American
Speaker 1: in my elementary school, and there were people that treated
Speaker 1: me horribly and others that treated me wonderfully. And I thought,
Speaker 1: if I understood the history of this town, maybe i'd
Speaker 1: understand me. When you were younger, your father would drive
Speaker 1: you to the South, but you couldn't stop in many
Speaker 1: places except one place that he did take you. So
Speaker 1: we would drive from New Jersey to visit my mother's
Speaker 1: family in North Carolina. And this was in jim Crow Era.
Speaker 1: So we would load the carp with food and blankets
Speaker 1: because he knew we couldn't stop. Um and what he
Speaker 1: was the only driver in those stop because did no
Speaker 1: place they would let black people stop. Um And so
Speaker 1: I remember he was falling asleep, and he pulled off,
Speaker 1: and he pulled into a motor court. Um And and
Speaker 1: he pulled in, and my mother my brother were asleep,
Speaker 1: and I was watching him, and he went out to
Speaker 1: smoke a cigarette and I noticed he was standing under
Speaker 1: a sign that said white only. And I was terrified.
Speaker 1: I thought something's gonna happen, and I was just the wreck.
Speaker 1: He finally comes back in the car. He recognizes that
Speaker 1: I'm really worried, and he said to me something I've
Speaker 1: never forgotten. He said, you know, this is my America too,
Speaker 1: And it reminded me that no matter what happened, this
Speaker 1: is part of my country and I want to do
Speaker 1: whatever I can to make it fairer. And did he
Speaker 1: ever bring it to the Smithsonian? And why did he
Speaker 1: bring you to the the Smithsonian? For me, when we used
Speaker 1: to go south, we would go past the museums, would
Speaker 1: say museums in Richmond and Petersburg. And like many kids,
Speaker 1: I was a Civil War buff and so I wanted
Speaker 1: desperately to stop, and he would always find an excuse
Speaker 1: not to stop um. And on the way back, I
Speaker 1: remember taking out a map and plotting, saying, Okay, they're
Speaker 1: twenty miles before we get to Richmond or Petersburg, and
Speaker 1: I would sort of alert him, but he would always
Speaker 1: keep going. But then instead of driving straight to New Jersey,
Speaker 1: he pulled into Washington, and he pulled in front of
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, and he said, here is a place where
Speaker 1: you can go learn about yourself in a museum and
Speaker 1: not worry about the color of your skin. So for me,
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian was always a place of fairness that for
Speaker 1: a twelve or thirteen year old kid, this was a
Speaker 1: place that said to me, here you can be who
Speaker 1: you want, You can learn all you want and not
Speaker 1: worry about the color of your skin. So being secretary
Speaker 1: in a way was my way of thanking an institution
Speaker 1: that embraced me when a few places did. So, you
Speaker 1: came to Washington get your undergraduate education at American University,
Speaker 1: and I did my graduate work there. So you're an
Speaker 1: African American mayle. And this was the nine seventies. So
Speaker 1: are there lots of job opportunities? Uh, there are very
Speaker 1: few teaching jobs. Um. And I remember at the end
Speaker 1: of my graduate career. UM, I was broke. I was
Speaker 1: living on a teaching assistant salary. And there was a
Speaker 1: returning student, she was forty years old, um, and she
Speaker 1: said to me, you should go down to the Smithsonian
Speaker 1: because her husband worked there and you can maybe get
Speaker 1: a job. And I remember saying to her, who works
Speaker 1: at the smith selling it's way you take dates because
Speaker 1: it's free. I mean that was my notion of the Smithsonian. Well,
Speaker 1: I went down and the man her husband was the
Speaker 1: head of science, David Challenger, and he introduced me to
Speaker 1: the secretary. As still in ripley, I didn't know the
Speaker 1: secretary was and I'm not going to get a job,
Speaker 1: so I'm in jeans. I've got a big afro, and
Speaker 1: I sit there because I'm not gonna get a job,
Speaker 1: very comfortable. And we talked for two and a half hours.
Speaker 1: Then he says, you know, we might want to hire you,
Speaker 1: and I could really I said, I wouldn't mind working
Speaker 1: at the Museum of History and Technology. And he said
Speaker 1: to me, we don't have any jobs there. We only
Speaker 1: have a job at the Air and Space Museum. And
Speaker 1: I said, I'm a nineteenth century historian, I know nothing
Speaker 1: about air space and I hate airplanes. And then he
Speaker 1: said language that was so instructive to me as a secretary.
Speaker 1: He said, young man, how much money are you making now?
Speaker 1: And I told him. He said, you make four times
Speaker 1: that if you become and work for me at the
Speaker 1: Air and Space Museum. I said, I'll become an Air
Speaker 1: and Space employee. And that's really how my career began.
Speaker 1: By luck. You also met your wife there. Aeron Space
Speaker 1: was everything I met my wife there. I learned about
Speaker 1: how to be a curator there, um I learned about
Speaker 1: the wonders of the Smithsonian. So for me, my whole
Speaker 1: life has been shaped in part by the Smithsonian. So
Speaker 1: you were recruited away for a while to go to
Speaker 1: California and the museum there, and what was that um?
Speaker 1: I went away to run to be the first curator
Speaker 1: of the California African American Museum, was the first state
Speaker 1: funded museum that explored issues of race. And I went
Speaker 1: there before the Olympics of four. So my big job
Speaker 1: was to do a major exhibitional history of blacks in
Speaker 1: the Olympics. You know, the Smithsonian taught me how to
Speaker 1: be a scholar, didn't really teach you how to be
Speaker 1: a curator. You came back, but then you were recruited
Speaker 1: away to run the Chicago Historical Society. So we moved
Speaker 1: to Chicago. Is that right? That's right? I was. I
Speaker 1: was at American History for twelve years and wasn't gonna leave,
Speaker 1: and Chicago recruited me, and I really wasn't planning ongoing.
Speaker 1: But I had a meeting with the mayor and the
Speaker 1: governor of Illinois and they said, this is a city
Speaker 1: that has been tortured by race, and if you could
Speaker 1: come and be the only African American running one of
Speaker 1: our major institutions and do well, what an impact you
Speaker 1: could have. And that appealed to me, so I came back,
Speaker 1: and I came to Chicago and loved it and had
Speaker 1: planned to stay there the rest of my career. Um,
Speaker 1: when I got the call to think about would you
Speaker 1: like to come back and help build the Nashville of
Speaker 1: African American History and Culture. So there was a secretary
Speaker 1: then who called you, and that was Larry S Larry Small,
Speaker 1: and he said, come back and build this museum. And
Speaker 1: you came back and you ultimately took the job. But
Speaker 1: why didn't you take it? Because there was no money,
Speaker 1: there was no land, there was no plan, and did
Speaker 1: you know all that? You know? I wasn't sure how
Speaker 1: many knows there were. Um. I knew that there was
Speaker 1: no plan, and I knew that there was no site,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know there were no staff and um.
Speaker 1: But what I realized is that being an African American
Speaker 1: running a major museum in Chicago nurtured my soul. I
Speaker 1: was really happy, but I realized that if I could
Speaker 1: help build this museum, we could really both nurture the
Speaker 1: souls of my ancestors, but we could help America really
Speaker 1: grap with race. And that's what brought me back. Now.
Speaker 1: The museum opened right the for President Obama left office
Speaker 1: and that was two and a very memorable ceremony. But
Speaker 1: before we got to that ceremony, you had to get
Speaker 1: an architect, to build a building, get a site, raise
Speaker 1: the money, and get the artifacts. So let's go through that. UM.
Speaker 1: Let's take the money. How much the cost to build
Speaker 1: that museum? The museum basically cost five and fifty million
Speaker 1: dollars to build, um, and we raised about six to
Speaker 1: do that. Half of it was paid by the federal government,
Speaker 1: in half um by wonderful philanthropists and donors. Did you
Speaker 1: ever think you could raise that much from the private
Speaker 1: sector when you started? When I told my mother that
Speaker 1: I had to raise that amount of money, she said,
Speaker 1: that's more money than God can count. So I wasn't sure, Um.
Speaker 1: But one of my great strengths is to be able
Speaker 1: to sort of look at the big picture and then
Speaker 1: put my head down and do the work. And so
Speaker 1: slowly but surely it began to work. So when you
Speaker 1: got the money from the Congress, and you got the
Speaker 1: money from the private sector, and then you had to
Speaker 1: figure out where the are you gonna put in the
Speaker 1: museum and artifacts? How many artifacts did you inherit um? Zero? Um?
Speaker 1: We had no artifacts whatsoever, and at some point I thought, well,
Speaker 1: do we just do it without artifacts? But it's the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1: People come to see the rights fly or the Ruby Slipper,
Speaker 1: So we needed to find these objects. And I didn't
Speaker 1: know exactly how to do it. And one day I
Speaker 1: sort of fell asleep in front of television and I
Speaker 1: woke up an antique road show was on. I had
Speaker 1: never heard of it, and so I suddenly said, what
Speaker 1: a great idea. So I sold the idea called it
Speaker 1: Saving African American Treasures, and we took curators and conservatis
Speaker 1: from around the Smithsonian and went around the country and
Speaker 1: help people preserve grandma'sles show or that nineteent century photograph.
Speaker 1: And then people would bring things out and say do
Speaker 1: you want this? And suddenly we found amazing things that
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure we could find. How many artifacts totally
Speaker 1: did you get? We collected over forty artifacts, of which
Speaker 1: about four thousand were on display, and seventy percent of
Speaker 1: them came from people's came from basement's trunks and attics
Speaker 1: of people's homes. Okay, and how many people have visited
Speaker 1: so far? Over seven and a half million people, and
Speaker 1: it's one of the few museums at the Smithsonian up
Speaker 1: to now where you don't you can't just walk in
Speaker 1: because you need tickets because it's demand is so great.
Speaker 1: Um and did you expect the demand be that great?
Speaker 1: I did, and I knew it would be popular. It's
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, but it really has become a pilgrimage site
Speaker 1: for many people, for African Americans, for non African Americans.
Speaker 1: And we expected four thousand people a day. We were
Speaker 1: getting eight thousand people a day. So we had to
Speaker 1: actually say you have to have tickets to get people
Speaker 1: in because the crowds were so great. So every congressman
Speaker 1: and center is calling it for tickets. Him, I am
Speaker 1: everybody's best friend. Let's go back to the opening day
Speaker 1: A right, so you've worked on this for how many years?
Speaker 1: Eleven years? Eleven years? You started with nothing? It opens
Speaker 1: in September of team and who was there? Who were
Speaker 1: the dignitaries? It became a who's who? I mean? On
Speaker 1: the stage was president and Mrs Bush, president of Mrs Obama. UM.
Speaker 1: I was seated next to John Lewis, UM, the Chief
Speaker 1: Justice was there, other super senior people from the Smithsonian,
Speaker 1: Um and in the audience were who's who who's almost
Speaker 1: every political figure was there, so many people from entertainment
Speaker 1: and sport. And what I was so moved by is
Speaker 1: the people who wanted to participate in the program, Oprah
Speaker 1: Winfrey and Will Smith and Robert de Niro, so that
Speaker 1: it really became more than I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 1: It was less an opening of a museum and more
Speaker 1: a celebration of a culture. So were you worried that
Speaker 1: something would go wrong that day? I was terrified. I
Speaker 1: was terrified that um I would mess up. I was
Speaker 1: terrified that somebody would UM not enjoy themselves. I was
Speaker 1: terrified that we wouldn't get the crowds that I hoped,
Speaker 1: and instead we got tens of thousands of people on
Speaker 1: the mall. Um it became an opportunity where I thought
Speaker 1: some of the best speechmaking I've ever heard. I thought
Speaker 1: President Bush gave a powerful speech about how um a
Speaker 1: great nation confronts it's just three doesn't run from it.
Speaker 1: President Obama talked, oh just beautifully about what this meant
Speaker 1: to him and his family, but clearly the late John
Speaker 1: Lewis stole the show, talked about how this museum was
Speaker 1: the culmination of the civil rights movement for him, and
Speaker 1: that this was really something that he was proudest of.
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, I was so grateful to be
Speaker 1: able to help fulfill his dream. It was just a
Speaker 1: special day. President Bush forty three had signed the legislation
Speaker 1: with approved the museum, and President Obama was president when
Speaker 1: it was open. I think he had to you make
Speaker 1: sure it's open while I'm in office. He did. He
Speaker 1: would say to me, you've got to let me clip
Speaker 1: cut the ribbon, and so that was great. I would
Speaker 1: go to construction people and say I was talking to
Speaker 1: the President. He says, we got to move a little quicker.
Speaker 1: So okay. So most people don't have a chance to
Speaker 1: do two great things in life. One great thing is
Speaker 1: pretty good for people. You built this museum. You deserve
Speaker 1: the lion's share of the credit, if not all the
Speaker 1: credit taken from nothing to this great museum. It's very
Speaker 1: popular and so forth. Why did you want to be
Speaker 1: Smith's of the Smithsonian secretary? Because, as your mother would
Speaker 1: say to you, what do you need that for? You
Speaker 1: already have a great job. And besides, you have the
Speaker 1: best opposite in Washington. You have a great view of
Speaker 1: the Washington Monument at the top of the African American
Speaker 1: History and Culture Museum. Why did you want this job
Speaker 1: because you told me to what I What I really
Speaker 1: realized is that I loved what I did, and I
Speaker 1: knew that I had the best view. I could see everything. Uh.
Speaker 1: The story is, I took President Obama through the museum
Speaker 1: and he came to my office and he said, you
Speaker 1: got a better view than I do. And I said,
Speaker 1: we only worked eight years. I worked eleven um and
Speaker 1: but I realized that I didn't need to accomplish anything
Speaker 1: so I could give everything to the Smithsonian. This was
Speaker 1: really my opportunity to say, how do I bring, you know,
Speaker 1: more than twenty five years of Smithsonian experience to the
Speaker 1: four How do I give back to the place that
Speaker 1: has meant so much to me? And how do I
Speaker 1: help the Smithsonian really rethink itself as the twenty one
Speaker 1: century institution. Why do you regard this as saw an
Speaker 1: important job for you to do because of you're an
Speaker 1: African American, because you're an American? Why do you care
Speaker 1: about the Smithsonian so much? In part as an American?
Speaker 1: The Smithsonian is this amazing treasure that it really is
Speaker 1: a reservoir that the public can dip into to not
Speaker 1: just understand the past, but to have a better sense
Speaker 1: about who we are now and really point us towards
Speaker 1: a better future. It is a reservoir that says, you
Speaker 1: want to understand about space, We're here to do that.
Speaker 1: You want to understand about our history, We're also able
Speaker 1: to help you do that. You want to see the
Speaker 1: creativity of people artistically, We're here to do that as well.
Speaker 1: So in some ways, the Smithsonian really is a great
Speaker 1: source of information and creativity that I want the public
Speaker 1: to really draw from. And so I feel honored to
Speaker 1: be the secret I feel humble, to be honest to
Speaker 1: be the Secretary because every day I learned something new,
Speaker 1: and I want the public to be able to learn
Speaker 1: from the Smithsonian every day. Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian,
Speaker 1: on the David Rubinstein Show. A period peer conversations, and
Speaker 1: that's it for this hour of Bloomberg Best. I'm Ed
Speaker 1: Baxter and I'm Denise PELEGRENI. This is Bloomberg. Yeah,