1
00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Very special programming today featuring Lonnie Bunch, he's the fourteenth

2
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: Secretary of the Smithsonian, and David Rubinstein, host of the

3
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein Show, a peer to peer conversations. Speaks here

4
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,280
Speaker 1: from the Udvar Hazy Center that's part of the Smithsonian

5
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 1: Museum and it's near Dallas Airport. That's right in. Rubinstein

6
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: begins here by asking Bunch about being the first historian

7
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: and the first black person selected as the head of

8
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 1: the museum complex. Let's listen in. That's right. And I'm

9
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: very proud and glad to be with you today. And

10
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 1: I should disclose that I was the chairman of the

11
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: Smithsonian at one point. I'm still on the board of

12
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, but I will ask tough questions anyway. I

13
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,519
Speaker 1: appreciate that. So, now that you've been the secretary for

14
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,720
Speaker 1: a while, um, is the job as good as you

15
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be? And you're happy you haven't.

16
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,159
Speaker 1: I think that no one knew what it was like

17
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,960
Speaker 1: to lead during a pandemic. But what has happened is

18
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: as a result of that, I really learned the wonders

19
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. When it comes together, the Smithsony is

20
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 1: often a conglaborative, museums and research centers um and that

21
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: doesn't always blend. But because of this pandemic, people have

22
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 1: come together, cross lines, brought their creativity scientists, historians, educators.

23
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 1: So for me, I'm really glad because I'm getting to

24
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: see what the Smithsonian does, even in the most difficult

25
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: of times, when it comes together and brings its creativity

26
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,039
Speaker 1: to bear. How did you operate during the COVID nineteen situation?

27
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 1: What did you do in terms of operating the zoo

28
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,959
Speaker 1: and all the research institutions and your nineteen museums. What

29
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 1: I realized is that once we shut down the buildings,

30
00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 1: that I needed the Smithsonian to still be operating. So

31
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,400
Speaker 1: we really put went to everything online. We created educational opportunities,

32
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,959
Speaker 1: portals that would allow people to educators to get our science,

33
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 1: our history, our art. We've made it so that scholars

34
00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 1: could continue to do the research, the scientists could do

35
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 1: the work they needed to do. But the reality is

36
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 1: that we recognize that now as a result of this virus,

37
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 1: we've got to rethink so much about the Smithsonian. We've

38
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: got to rethink about how we tell a work more effectively.

39
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 1: We've got to think about once people come back. What

40
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 1: does social distancing meaning a museum? Because, as you know,

41
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,959
Speaker 1: the major thing that happens in a museum is people

42
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,639
Speaker 1: who don't know each other come together around an artifact

43
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,600
Speaker 1: like the Shuttle. UM. And so are people gonna want

44
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 1: to come together um in a time of pandemic? So

45
00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 1: we're really thinking about how do we create community even

46
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,520
Speaker 1: in with social distancing. So the Smithsonian is not yet open.

47
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: You have two parts of it open. This museum is

48
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: open and the National Zoo is opened, right, Um? Why

49
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 1: did you open those two? First? I wanted to be

50
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 1: able to figure out how do we open the rest

51
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. The zoo because it's outdoors, um, and

52
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 1: that was easier UM. But also this museum because it's

53
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: large and it also has parking, because there were issues

54
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,080
Speaker 1: of transportation. So basically these were the test case which

55
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: will then if the if the virus then begins to

56
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,320
Speaker 1: go down to allow us slowly to open the rest

57
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. Now where did you operate from when

58
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,079
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen was prevalent, Well, be coast there were some

59
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 1: guards that had to work. I thought I would go

60
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 1: into the office, but I realized that if I went

61
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 1: to the office, so many other people would come in.

62
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,919
Speaker 1: So I ended up working from home and I learned

63
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,000
Speaker 1: to master zoom um and sort of other technologies I'm

64
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,679
Speaker 1: still fighting with, but basically work from home every day now.

65
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: Museums have been around for thousands of years, but now

66
00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 1: with zoom and virtual technologies, why don't we really need museums.

67
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,399
Speaker 1: Why can't you just look on the screen and see

68
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 1: what you need to say? I think there is something

69
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 1: powerful about the object. I mean, the fact that you

70
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 1: can see the Space Shuttle um right in front of

71
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 1: you is really powerful. You feel the connection. I've seen

72
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,120
Speaker 1: throughout my career people stand in front of a copy

73
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: of the Emancipation Proclamation or Chuck Berry's candy Apple red Cadillac,

74
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 1: and it stimulates conversation. So that, in essence, what we

75
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,120
Speaker 1: should do with the Smithsonian is find the right tension

76
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 1: between tradition and innovation. We have to recognize that the

77
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: traditional stuff is good and we want people to enjoy it.

78
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,160
Speaker 1: But now we also recognized it as a result of

79
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 1: the pandemic, more people are comfortable receiving content digitally. So

80
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 1: it really means that we just need to find the

81
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: right balance between serving the millions that will never get

82
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: to a museum, and the millions that actually come to

83
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,880
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. Now, during the COVID closing of the museums,

84
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 1: we had some race riots in Washington and other cities

85
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,600
Speaker 1: around the country, and reaction to the death of a

86
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 1: number of people uh such as George Floyd. Um, how

87
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 1: is the Smithsonian reacting to that? I thought it was

88
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 1: really important to realize that in some ways, the Smithsonian

89
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 1: is the glue that holds a nation together, and it's

90
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 1: the kind of place that can bring people of different

91
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,040
Speaker 1: political points of view together. So when when all of

92
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 1: the sort of angst and the pains happened as a

93
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: result of the murder of George Floyd and others, I

94
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,719
Speaker 1: realized that the Smithsonian had a role to pay, that

95
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 1: we should be a place that would help the public

96
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: grapple with the things that have divided us. So one

97
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 1: of the things we did was we got support from

98
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 1: Bank of American created a program that looks at race,

99
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,039
Speaker 1: community and our shared future to basically say, how do

100
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 1: we create town halls an opportunity for people to come

101
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 1: together to talk about what is divided us? How do

102
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 1: we use the resource of the Smithsonian our expertise on

103
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 1: African American culture to give people the kind of historical

104
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,599
Speaker 1: guidance to help them live their lives. Now, the Smithsonian itself,

105
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,839
Speaker 1: what about the diversity in the Smithsonian workforce and your

106
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,480
Speaker 1: executives who helped run the museums. I think the Smithsonian,

107
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,840
Speaker 1: like many places, has a lot of work to do. UM.

108
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,840
Speaker 1: I'm very pleased that we've got some diverse leadership. UM,

109
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: we've got strong, diverse, playful, and different parts of the Smithsonian.

110
00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 1: But I think that the Smithsonian needs to do a

111
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,480
Speaker 1: better job because if we're going to help the public

112
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,920
Speaker 1: grap with these issues, we've got to model it. Now.

113
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: There's a story about the secretary of the Smithsonian when

114
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: they had the Lafayette Park riots or whatever you wanna

115
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,160
Speaker 1: call them, that he was wandering around looking for artifacts

116
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,000
Speaker 1: he could pick up and take to the Smithsonian. Any

117
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 1: truth of that, Old curators can't break their habits. I

118
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 1: was down um at Lafayette Square talking to people looking

119
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 1: at some of the materials on the walls, collecting some

120
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,440
Speaker 1: for the Smithsonian, but really directing others, saying here's some

121
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 1: stuff we should have. Well, you're walking around there and

122
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,479
Speaker 1: you're saying I'm the secretary of the Smithsonian. Can I

123
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: have this? And the police are saying, how sure? I

124
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 1: had to show my idea? Okay, so you've got you

125
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,640
Speaker 1: didn't get arrested. So what's the biggest challenge you have

126
00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 1: at the Smithsonian right now other than getting ready for

127
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,280
Speaker 1: an opening again after COVID, what's the biggest challenge of fundraising? Gillingly,

128
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,720
Speaker 1: Members of Congress, what is the biggest I think first

129
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 1: of all the challenges that to make sure that the

130
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 1: Smithsonian has the stable funding it needs. Because of the pandemic,

131
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 1: We've lost millions of dollars. People aren't going to the

132
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: restaurants and shops, which has an impact on our research

133
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,320
Speaker 1: and on staff. So really trying to make sure we

134
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,039
Speaker 1: have the strongest financial model, because what it really means

135
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,279
Speaker 1: is we've got to rethink some things. So rather than

136
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,919
Speaker 1: just reopen our shops, we've got to build more e commerce.

137
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,840
Speaker 1: So this is really allowing us to think creatively about

138
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 1: what the Smithsonian should be. So let's talk about your

139
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 1: background a moment um. You grew up in New Jersey,

140
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,160
Speaker 1: in the Garden State, Okay, in the Garden State, and

141
00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 1: what did you want to be when you're growing up,

142
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: I assume not the secretary of the Smithsonian, right. I

143
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 1: didn't want I didn't know what the Smithsonian was, but

144
00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to do something with history. I've always loved history.

145
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 1: And the story that is an absolutely true story, is

146
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,239
Speaker 1: that my grandfather died the day before I turned five,

147
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,880
Speaker 1: and he would read to me, and he would read

148
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: books and one day was reading a book and it

149
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 1: had a picture of school children, um and it was

150
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,520
Speaker 1: probably from the eighteen sixties, and he said to me

151
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: that the picture said unidentified children. And then he said

152
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,640
Speaker 1: something I've never forgotten. He said, isn't it a shame

153
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 1: people could live, their lives, die, and all that says

154
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 1: it's unidentified. And that got me trying to figure out

155
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,720
Speaker 1: how do I understand what their lives were like? And

156
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 1: I began to look at photographs as a little kid

157
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 1: and try to imagine what were their jobs? Were they happy?

158
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,160
Speaker 1: And it got me interested in history. So that was

159
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: the first step. And the second step was growing up

160
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: in the town I grew up in. There were very

161
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: few African Americans. In fact, I was only African American

162
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,239
Speaker 1: in my elementary school, and there were people that treated

163
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 1: me horribly and others that treated me wonderfully. And I thought,

164
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,040
Speaker 1: if I understood the history of this town, maybe i'd

165
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,400
Speaker 1: understand me. When you were younger, your father would drive

166
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: you to the South, but you couldn't stop in many

167
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 1: places except one place that he did take you. So

168
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,280
Speaker 1: we would drive from New Jersey to visit my mother's

169
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 1: family in North Carolina. And this was in jim Crow Era.

170
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 1: So we would load the carp with food and blankets

171
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: because he knew we couldn't stop. Um and what he

172
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,320
Speaker 1: was the only driver in those stop because did no

173
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 1: place they would let black people stop. Um And so

174
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 1: I remember he was falling asleep, and he pulled off,

175
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: and he pulled into a motor court. Um And and

176
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,480
Speaker 1: he pulled in, and my mother my brother were asleep,

177
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 1: and I was watching him, and he went out to

178
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 1: smoke a cigarette and I noticed he was standing under

179
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,200
Speaker 1: a sign that said white only. And I was terrified.

180
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,679
Speaker 1: I thought something's gonna happen, and I was just the wreck.

181
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 1: He finally comes back in the car. He recognizes that

182
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 1: I'm really worried, and he said to me something I've

183
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,559
Speaker 1: never forgotten. He said, you know, this is my America too,

184
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,000
Speaker 1: And it reminded me that no matter what happened, this

185
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,520
Speaker 1: is part of my country and I want to do

186
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 1: whatever I can to make it fairer. And did he

187
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:25,920
Speaker 1: ever bring it to the Smithsonian? And why did he

188
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,120
Speaker 1: bring you to the the Smithsonian? For me, when we used

189
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,840
Speaker 1: to go south, we would go past the museums, would

190
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 1: say museums in Richmond and Petersburg. And like many kids,

191
00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 1: I was a Civil War buff and so I wanted

192
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,959
Speaker 1: desperately to stop, and he would always find an excuse

193
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 1: not to stop um. And on the way back, I

194
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 1: remember taking out a map and plotting, saying, Okay, they're

195
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,320
Speaker 1: twenty miles before we get to Richmond or Petersburg, and

196
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 1: I would sort of alert him, but he would always

197
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 1: keep going. But then instead of driving straight to New Jersey,

198
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 1: he pulled into Washington, and he pulled in front of

199
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,439
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, and he said, here is a place where

200
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,120
Speaker 1: you can go learn about yourself in a museum and

201
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: not worry about the color of your skin. So for me,

202
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian was always a place of fairness that for

203
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 1: a twelve or thirteen year old kid, this was a

204
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 1: place that said to me, here you can be who

205
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: you want, You can learn all you want and not

206
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 1: worry about the color of your skin. So being secretary

207
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 1: in a way was my way of thanking an institution

208
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 1: that embraced me when a few places did. So, you

209
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: came to Washington get your undergraduate education at American University,

210
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 1: and I did my graduate work there. So you're an

211
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 1: African American mayle. And this was the nine seventies. So

212
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 1: are there lots of job opportunities? Uh, there are very

213
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 1: few teaching jobs. Um. And I remember at the end

214
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,480
Speaker 1: of my graduate career. UM, I was broke. I was

215
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 1: living on a teaching assistant salary. And there was a

216
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: returning student, she was forty years old, um, and she

217
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,479
Speaker 1: said to me, you should go down to the Smithsonian

218
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,719
Speaker 1: because her husband worked there and you can maybe get

219
00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 1: a job. And I remember saying to her, who works

220
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,920
Speaker 1: at the smith selling it's way you take dates because

221
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,719
Speaker 1: it's free. I mean that was my notion of the Smithsonian. Well,

222
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 1: I went down and the man her husband was the

223
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 1: head of science, David Challenger, and he introduced me to

224
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 1: the secretary. As still in ripley, I didn't know the

225
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 1: secretary was and I'm not going to get a job,

226
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 1: so I'm in jeans. I've got a big afro, and

227
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 1: I sit there because I'm not gonna get a job,

228
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 1: very comfortable. And we talked for two and a half hours.

229
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,240
Speaker 1: Then he says, you know, we might want to hire you,

230
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: and I could really I said, I wouldn't mind working

231
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,680
Speaker 1: at the Museum of History and Technology. And he said

232
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 1: to me, we don't have any jobs there. We only

233
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 1: have a job at the Air and Space Museum. And

234
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: I said, I'm a nineteenth century historian, I know nothing

235
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,080
Speaker 1: about air space and I hate airplanes. And then he

236
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 1: said language that was so instructive to me as a secretary.

237
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,200
Speaker 1: He said, young man, how much money are you making now?

238
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: And I told him. He said, you make four times

239
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,080
Speaker 1: that if you become and work for me at the

240
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 1: Air and Space Museum. I said, I'll become an Air

241
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 1: and Space employee. And that's really how my career began.

242
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 1: By luck. You also met your wife there. Aeron Space

243
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 1: was everything I met my wife there. I learned about

244
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,280
Speaker 1: how to be a curator there, um I learned about

245
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,559
Speaker 1: the wonders of the Smithsonian. So for me, my whole

246
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 1: life has been shaped in part by the Smithsonian. So

247
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: you were recruited away for a while to go to

248
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 1: California and the museum there, and what was that um?

249
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 1: I went away to run to be the first curator

250
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,560
Speaker 1: of the California African American Museum, was the first state

251
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,080
Speaker 1: funded museum that explored issues of race. And I went

252
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 1: there before the Olympics of four. So my big job

253
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,719
Speaker 1: was to do a major exhibitional history of blacks in

254
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: the Olympics. You know, the Smithsonian taught me how to

255
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 1: be a scholar, didn't really teach you how to be

256
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,840
Speaker 1: a curator. You came back, but then you were recruited

257
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: away to run the Chicago Historical Society. So we moved

258
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 1: to Chicago. Is that right? That's right? I was. I

259
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 1: was at American History for twelve years and wasn't gonna leave,

260
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 1: and Chicago recruited me, and I really wasn't planning ongoing.

261
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: But I had a meeting with the mayor and the

262
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 1: governor of Illinois and they said, this is a city

263
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,200
Speaker 1: that has been tortured by race, and if you could

264
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 1: come and be the only African American running one of

265
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 1: our major institutions and do well, what an impact you

266
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,439
Speaker 1: could have. And that appealed to me, so I came back,

267
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 1: and I came to Chicago and loved it and had

268
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,439
Speaker 1: planned to stay there the rest of my career. Um,

269
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,840
Speaker 1: when I got the call to think about would you

270
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 1: like to come back and help build the Nashville of

271
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: African American History and Culture. So there was a secretary

272
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: then who called you, and that was Larry S Larry Small,

273
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,840
Speaker 1: and he said, come back and build this museum. And

274
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,439
Speaker 1: you came back and you ultimately took the job. But

275
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: why didn't you take it? Because there was no money,

276
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 1: there was no land, there was no plan, and did

277
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 1: you know all that? You know? I wasn't sure how

278
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,560
Speaker 1: many knows there were. Um. I knew that there was

279
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 1: no plan, and I knew that there was no site,

280
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 1: but I didn't know there were no staff and um.

281
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 1: But what I realized is that being an African American

282
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 1: running a major museum in Chicago nurtured my soul. I

283
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 1: was really happy, but I realized that if I could

284
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 1: help build this museum, we could really both nurture the

285
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: souls of my ancestors, but we could help America really

286
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 1: grap with race. And that's what brought me back. Now.

287
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 1: The museum opened right the for President Obama left office

288
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 1: and that was two and a very memorable ceremony. But

289
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: before we got to that ceremony, you had to get

290
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 1: an architect, to build a building, get a site, raise

291
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: the money, and get the artifacts. So let's go through that. UM.

292
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 1: Let's take the money. How much the cost to build

293
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: that museum? The museum basically cost five and fifty million

294
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 1: dollars to build, um, and we raised about six to

295
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,680
Speaker 1: do that. Half of it was paid by the federal government,

296
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: in half um by wonderful philanthropists and donors. Did you

297
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: ever think you could raise that much from the private

298
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 1: sector when you started? When I told my mother that

299
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 1: I had to raise that amount of money, she said,

300
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 1: that's more money than God can count. So I wasn't sure, Um.

301
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 1: But one of my great strengths is to be able

302
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 1: to sort of look at the big picture and then

303
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: put my head down and do the work. And so

304
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 1: slowly but surely it began to work. So when you

305
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: got the money from the Congress, and you got the

306
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: money from the private sector, and then you had to

307
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 1: figure out where the are you gonna put in the

308
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 1: museum and artifacts? How many artifacts did you inherit um? Zero? Um?

309
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,440
Speaker 1: We had no artifacts whatsoever, and at some point I thought, well,

310
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 1: do we just do it without artifacts? But it's the Smithsonian.

311
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 1: People come to see the rights fly or the Ruby Slipper,

312
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 1: So we needed to find these objects. And I didn't

313
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: know exactly how to do it. And one day I

314
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 1: sort of fell asleep in front of television and I

315
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 1: woke up an antique road show was on. I had

316
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 1: never heard of it, and so I suddenly said, what

317
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 1: a great idea. So I sold the idea called it

318
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 1: Saving African American Treasures, and we took curators and conservatis

319
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 1: from around the Smithsonian and went around the country and

320
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,960
Speaker 1: help people preserve grandma'sles show or that nineteent century photograph.

321
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: And then people would bring things out and say do

322
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 1: you want this? And suddenly we found amazing things that

323
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure we could find. How many artifacts totally

324
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: did you get? We collected over forty artifacts, of which

325
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,240
Speaker 1: about four thousand were on display, and seventy percent of

326
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 1: them came from people's came from basement's trunks and attics

327
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 1: of people's homes. Okay, and how many people have visited

328
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: so far? Over seven and a half million people, and

329
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: it's one of the few museums at the Smithsonian up

330
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,800
Speaker 1: to now where you don't you can't just walk in

331
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 1: because you need tickets because it's demand is so great.

332
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,600
Speaker 1: Um and did you expect the demand be that great?

333
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 1: I did, and I knew it would be popular. It's

334
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, but it really has become a pilgrimage site

335
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: for many people, for African Americans, for non African Americans.

336
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 1: And we expected four thousand people a day. We were

337
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 1: getting eight thousand people a day. So we had to

338
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 1: actually say you have to have tickets to get people

339
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: in because the crowds were so great. So every congressman

340
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 1: and center is calling it for tickets. Him, I am

341
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 1: everybody's best friend. Let's go back to the opening day

342
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,560
Speaker 1: A right, so you've worked on this for how many years?

343
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 1: Eleven years? Eleven years? You started with nothing? It opens

344
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: in September of team and who was there? Who were

345
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 1: the dignitaries? It became a who's who? I mean? On

346
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 1: the stage was president and Mrs Bush, president of Mrs Obama. UM.

347
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: I was seated next to John Lewis, UM, the Chief

348
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 1: Justice was there, other super senior people from the Smithsonian,

349
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 1: Um and in the audience were who's who who's almost

350
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,040
Speaker 1: every political figure was there, so many people from entertainment

351
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 1: and sport. And what I was so moved by is

352
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 1: the people who wanted to participate in the program, Oprah

353
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,639
Speaker 1: Winfrey and Will Smith and Robert de Niro, so that

354
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 1: it really became more than I could have ever imagined.

355
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 1: It was less an opening of a museum and more

356
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,159
Speaker 1: a celebration of a culture. So were you worried that

357
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 1: something would go wrong that day? I was terrified. I

358
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 1: was terrified that um I would mess up. I was

359
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: terrified that somebody would UM not enjoy themselves. I was

360
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 1: terrified that we wouldn't get the crowds that I hoped,

361
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 1: and instead we got tens of thousands of people on

362
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 1: the mall. Um it became an opportunity where I thought

363
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 1: some of the best speechmaking I've ever heard. I thought

364
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 1: President Bush gave a powerful speech about how um a

365
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 1: great nation confronts it's just three doesn't run from it.

366
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,760
Speaker 1: President Obama talked, oh just beautifully about what this meant

367
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,640
Speaker 1: to him and his family, but clearly the late John

368
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 1: Lewis stole the show, talked about how this museum was

369
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: the culmination of the civil rights movement for him, and

370
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 1: that this was really something that he was proudest of.

371
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, I was so grateful to be

372
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 1: able to help fulfill his dream. It was just a

373
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 1: special day. President Bush forty three had signed the legislation

374
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,880
Speaker 1: with approved the museum, and President Obama was president when

375
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 1: it was open. I think he had to you make

376
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 1: sure it's open while I'm in office. He did. He

377
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,159
Speaker 1: would say to me, you've got to let me clip

378
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 1: cut the ribbon, and so that was great. I would

379
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,359
Speaker 1: go to construction people and say I was talking to

380
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 1: the President. He says, we got to move a little quicker.

381
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: So okay. So most people don't have a chance to

382
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 1: do two great things in life. One great thing is

383
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 1: pretty good for people. You built this museum. You deserve

384
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,679
Speaker 1: the lion's share of the credit, if not all the

385
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: credit taken from nothing to this great museum. It's very

386
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: popular and so forth. Why did you want to be

387
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 1: Smith's of the Smithsonian secretary? Because, as your mother would

388
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 1: say to you, what do you need that for? You

389
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: already have a great job. And besides, you have the

390
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: best opposite in Washington. You have a great view of

391
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 1: the Washington Monument at the top of the African American

392
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 1: History and Culture Museum. Why did you want this job

393
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 1: because you told me to what I What I really

394
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,439
Speaker 1: realized is that I loved what I did, and I

395
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,880
Speaker 1: knew that I had the best view. I could see everything. Uh.

396
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 1: The story is, I took President Obama through the museum

397
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 1: and he came to my office and he said, you

398
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: got a better view than I do. And I said,

399
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 1: we only worked eight years. I worked eleven um and

400
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 1: but I realized that I didn't need to accomplish anything

401
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 1: so I could give everything to the Smithsonian. This was

402
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 1: really my opportunity to say, how do I bring, you know,

403
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 1: more than twenty five years of Smithsonian experience to the

404
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: four How do I give back to the place that

405
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 1: has meant so much to me? And how do I

406
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 1: help the Smithsonian really rethink itself as the twenty one

407
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 1: century institution. Why do you regard this as saw an

408
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: important job for you to do because of you're an

409
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 1: African American, because you're an American? Why do you care

410
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 1: about the Smithsonian so much? In part as an American?

411
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 1: The Smithsonian is this amazing treasure that it really is

412
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,239
Speaker 1: a reservoir that the public can dip into to not

413
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 1: just understand the past, but to have a better sense

414
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 1: about who we are now and really point us towards

415
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: a better future. It is a reservoir that says, you

416
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: want to understand about space, We're here to do that.

417
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: You want to understand about our history, We're also able

418
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 1: to help you do that. You want to see the

419
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: creativity of people artistically, We're here to do that as well.

420
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 1: So in some ways, the Smithsonian really is a great

421
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: source of information and creativity that I want the public

422
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 1: to really draw from. And so I feel honored to

423
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: be the secret I feel humble, to be honest to

424
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: be the Secretary because every day I learned something new,

425
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: and I want the public to be able to learn

426
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: from the Smithsonian every day. Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian,

427
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 1: on the David Rubinstein Show. A period peer conversations, and

428
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: that's it for this hour of Bloomberg Best. I'm Ed

429
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: Baxter and I'm Denise PELEGRENI. This is Bloomberg. Yeah,