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Speaker 1: How many times have you dreamed about clocking out, just

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Speaker 1: leaping off the grid, taking to the road and never

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Speaker 1: having to check in again, just you and your family

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Speaker 1: and RV and the wide open road. I think about

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Speaker 1: it almost every day. That's exactly what James and Michelle

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Speaker 1: Butler did shortly after their wedding. They leave their beautiful

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Speaker 1: in New Hampshire home, they rent it out, they pack

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Speaker 1: up their stuff and they hit the highway for the

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Speaker 1: adventure of a lifetime. There's nothing like an RV. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you that myself had an awesome trip with

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Speaker 1: my family planning another one, and that's what the Butler's

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Speaker 1: had in mind too, but things didn't work out the

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Speaker 1: way they planned. I Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: What happened to James How Michelle Butler? Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is the beach where James and Michelle

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Speaker 1: Butler were last seen. The couple have been traveling the

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Speaker 1: US in an RV since twenty eighteen, but in mid

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Speaker 1: October they abruptly went silent, and their trailer and RV

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Speaker 1: allegedly crossed the US Mexico border without them. Yeah, more

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Speaker 1: than a hundred people gathered Sunday night for a vigil

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Speaker 1: in Rumney, New Hampshire, a small town where James and

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Speaker 1: Michelle Butler fell in love and married in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: They did everything together. They loved each other deeply. Jebrah

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Speaker 1: van Loon is James's older sister. She says her brother

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Speaker 1: and Michelle were inseparable. They were always together and smiling

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Speaker 1: and having fun in doing what they loved. James was

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Speaker 1: a retired Aired Navy veteran, and the couple had been

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Speaker 1: on a cross country road trip and a used r

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Speaker 1: V trailer, taking odd jobs along the way to make

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Speaker 1: ends meet. Debrah says they were lately headed to Florida

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Speaker 1: next to sell Christmas trees. As we knew something was

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Speaker 1: wrong because they never missed phone calls. Speaking of going

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Speaker 1: off the grid, That's exactly what these two did. James

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Speaker 1: and Michelle Butler get married, fall in love, get married,

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Speaker 1: get off the grid, getting an RV and traveling the country.

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Speaker 1: This very happy New Hampshire couple then seemingly disappeared. James

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Speaker 1: and Michelle of Running New Hampshire then reported missing by

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Speaker 1: their family after failing to contact them. What happened to

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Speaker 1: the loved up couple. I Dancy, Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. With me. Julie Rendelman,

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Speaker 1: New York defense attorney, David Katz, former d E eight

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Speaker 1: now CEO Global Security Group, doctor beth Any Marshall, psychoanalyst

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Speaker 1: in LA, former chief medical Examiner Chris Sperry also with me.

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Speaker 1: Chloyd Steiger, former homicide detective now author. But to Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Dave, tell me

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Speaker 1: about this couple, James Michelle Butler and how they seemingly

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Speaker 1: just drop off the map. Nancy, This couple phenomenal in

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Speaker 1: that James was a lifelong career Navy man. They met

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Speaker 1: in twenty ten and got married in twenty fifteen, and

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Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago, James and Michelle

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Speaker 1: decided to just as you mentioned, just get off the grid.

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Speaker 1: He was managing a Walmart at the time, she was

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Speaker 1: working in an office, and they just walked away. They

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Speaker 1: bought a used travel trailer, they hooked it up to

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Speaker 1: his truck, and they decided to go on a lifelong adventure.

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Speaker 1: James actually had told his family that he saw the

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Speaker 1: world in the navy. He had traveled, but he'd never

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Speaker 1: seen his own country, and that's what they set to do.

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Speaker 1: So they really did hook up the trailer and started traveling.

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Speaker 1: They ended up picking up odd jobs along the way

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Speaker 1: to pay for places to park the camper and things

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Speaker 1: like that, and they kept a Michelle actually kept a

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Speaker 1: travel log on Facebook of all their adventures and what

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Speaker 1: they were doing. Just an incredible off the grid journey.

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Speaker 1: But very important to point out that while they were

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Speaker 1: kind of off the grid, they maintained close contact with

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Speaker 1: their family via FaceTime and constant cell phone contact, so

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Speaker 1: they were always in contact with their family back in

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire. Joining me out of Beverly Hills renowned psychoanalyst

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. You can find her at doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshall dot com. Bethany this idea to just leave your home,

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Speaker 1: sell your house, get out of your condo, get rid

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Speaker 1: of your possessions and get an RV and travel the country.

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Speaker 1: I like it. As a matter of fact, as you

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Speaker 1: well know, David and I took the twins all across

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Speaker 1: the country in an RV about two years ago, all

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Speaker 1: the way through Death Valley, Los Vegas. We started in Tucson,

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Speaker 1: went to Vegas, went to Death of Valley, went through

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Speaker 1: the mountains the Sequoia, ended up at the Golden Gate

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Speaker 1: Bridge and it was one of the best things ever.

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Speaker 1: Of course, my eighty eight year old mother took up

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Speaker 1: two thirds of the RV. I don't know how that happened,

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Speaker 1: but it was a trip of a lifetime. It's a

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Speaker 1: very alluring Bethany, Why Nancy. It is alluring because they

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Speaker 1: hadn't lived a life of complete responsibility. Between the two

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Speaker 1: of them, they had five children, He had done tours

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Speaker 1: of duty, they had one grandchild. These were two very

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Speaker 1: responsible people. They held down jobs, They had a very

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Speaker 1: buttoned up life, and they loved each other. They were

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Speaker 1: attached to each other, and they wanted to finally live

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Speaker 1: the American dream and they set out to do it.

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Speaker 1: So this is not a couple who put themselves at

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Speaker 1: risk because they were drug takers or drug runners or

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Speaker 1: engaging in risky behaviors. They were just enjoying their lives

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Speaker 1: and wanting to enhance their relationship together. You know, they

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Speaker 1: really seem to be living out their dream. To Cloyd

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Speaker 1: Steiger thirty six years, Seattle, p d. Twenty two years

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Speaker 1: homicide author Seattle's forgotten serial killer Gary Jane Grant. Cloyd again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I'm all for packing

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Speaker 1: up and taking off in your RV, but there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of dangers associated with that. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, they just researched it for my book coming

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Speaker 1: out called Don't Be a Victim about Danger traveling, including

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Speaker 1: in an RV. It can be dangerous. Why well, you

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Speaker 1: never know who you're going to come up against, it

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Speaker 1: where you're going to be, especially if you're doing what

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Speaker 1: they called boondocking. We're just parked somewhere off the grid

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Speaker 1: and stay in your RV without hookups or anybody around

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Speaker 1: in a park. And people that do that often do

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Speaker 1: that for several nights in a row, and you never

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Speaker 1: know who's around you know what, you ever do know

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Speaker 1: who's around? Cloyd Steiger to David Katz, CEO Global Security Group,

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Speaker 1: And another thing I learned in an RV is there

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Speaker 1: no matter what you do, they're not that secure. And

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Speaker 1: Cloyd Steiger's right, you don't know who else is in

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Speaker 1: that RV camp, absolutely correct. I mean you go to

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Speaker 1: some of these more remote locations where I mean anyone

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Speaker 1: would want to park there, enjoy nature, joy solitude. You

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Speaker 1: run across a wrong person and for whatever reason, being

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Speaker 1: attractive target looking for adventure. James Butler and his wife Michelle,

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Speaker 1: newly married. They rent out their house in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: They buy an RV. They're serious about this, We just

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Speaker 1: rent in one. They sold the farm. They buy an

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Speaker 1: RV and set out for the adventure of a lifetime.

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Speaker 1: They get to New York, they go to Arizona. They

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Speaker 1: camp all around south the South Texas coast, but then

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Speaker 1: seemingly they disappear. Did they want to go that far

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Speaker 1: off the grid? We're talking about James Butler and Michelle Butler.

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Speaker 1: Even though their quote off the grid, they stay in

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Speaker 1: touch with their family. To Dave maccrimalline dot com investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: where you can find this and all other breaking crime

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Speaker 1: and justice news, Dave mac tell me about their travels

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Speaker 1: and where was the last time that they were spotted. Well, actually, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the travels. They would pick up odd jobs

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Speaker 1: in different parts of the country. Wherever they were now

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Speaker 1: when they were actually last seen it was when they

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Speaker 1: posted pictures of setting up their campsite on the beach

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Speaker 1: at South Padre Island in Texas, just outside of Corpus Christie.

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Speaker 1: They had just arrived there around October the fifteenth, and

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Speaker 1: they were setting things up and they'd taken a couple

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Speaker 1: of pictures and posted them online. Now they had talked

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Speaker 1: to family, they had talked with via text and audio,

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Speaker 1: and they had actually set up a phone call to

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Speaker 1: talk to their five year old granddaughter on the seventeenth.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that's important is their granddaughter had just

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Speaker 1: taken up horse riding lessons and so through their travels

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Speaker 1: they actually found some boots and some real western wear

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Speaker 1: to send to their granddaughter and they were going to

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Speaker 1: do this big FaceTime so that they could see as

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Speaker 1: she opened the present from grandma and grandpa. And that

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Speaker 1: call didn't happen. Okay, I need a shrink right here

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Speaker 1: to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us out of LA. You

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Speaker 1: can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. The

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Speaker 1: fact that they had set up a FaceTime with their

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Speaker 1: five year old granddaughter and all the facts Dave Mack

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Speaker 1: just gave you the details. What does that tell you

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Speaker 1: about them? And the fact that they seemingly disappear, well,

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Speaker 1: they are off the grid. Somewhat but not completely. They

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Speaker 1: love their family. I keep using the word attachment today,

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Speaker 1: but they're attached. They are not leaving their attachments behind.

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Speaker 1: They're not taking off, they're not running from the law,

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Speaker 1: They're not doing anything elicit. They are simply enjoying their

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Speaker 1: lives and maintaining contact with their family. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that strikes me is that their whole life

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Speaker 1: seemingly is in that RV. So this would also make

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Speaker 1: them an attractive target. Since we don't know where they

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Speaker 1: are what happened to them. Any perpetrator is going to

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Speaker 1: see that they have cash in there, that they have ideas,

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Speaker 1: they have phones, they have clothing, so they're in some

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Speaker 1: ways they are a moving target. And we know even

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Speaker 1: with people who hike a lot or are long distance runners,

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Speaker 1: anytime you are on the move in multiple settings, you

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Speaker 1: do risk coming to the attention of bad elements of

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Speaker 1: bad people. Crime stories with Nancy grace Well. Family members

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Speaker 1: tell us that James last posted on Facebook on October

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Speaker 1: fifteenth with a picture of his wife Michelle on the beach,

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Speaker 1: saying that they were setting up camp. They were last

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Speaker 1: heard from the next day and reported missing October twenty third,

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Speaker 1: right now. Police say they need to find the two

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Speaker 1: people spotted in their truck. They're just people that we

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Speaker 1: want to identify and talk to for background in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: If we had, if I could use stereotypes, I think

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Speaker 1: they're probably local to the Corpus Christi area, and investigators

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Speaker 1: in Texas say they are working with the Department of

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security park rangers and have been in contact with

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Speaker 1: Mexican authorities. Meanwhile, family members are working on getting their

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Speaker 1: remains back to New Hampshire. Their vehicle is spotted, but

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Speaker 1: it's not them driving it. Todave Matt Crime online dot

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Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, what can you tell me about eyewitnesses

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Speaker 1: that see James and a Walmart about thirty eight miles

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Speaker 1: from where they were last seen. Well, um, Nancy, that

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Speaker 1: sighting at the Walmart some thirty eight miles away is

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Speaker 1: part of the investigation, and at the press conference, I

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Speaker 1: was waiting for that to be answered, and the only

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Speaker 1: thing we got from the investigators is that they're sitting

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Speaker 1: on the information because it's an ongoing investigation. They're playing

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Speaker 1: things very very close to the vest. We've got the

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Speaker 1: couple going missing, then we've got you know, the We've

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Speaker 1: got witnesses, you know, seeing the camper at their campground

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Speaker 1: boat without the truck, and then we have the picture

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Speaker 1: of the truck towing the trailer. Okay, very very confusing.

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Speaker 1: To psychoanalyst doctor Bethany Marshall, I've heard eyewitnesses attacked a

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Speaker 1: lot on cross examination. Is there a chance the eyewitnesses

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Speaker 1: who spot James without Michelle at a Walmart about forty

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Speaker 1: miles away could be wrong? Well, here's what I know

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Speaker 1: about eyewitnesses. When there is a lot of national attention

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Speaker 1: to a news story, people go looking for clues. They

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Speaker 1: always want to be the one to call the tip mind,

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Speaker 1: they're looking around and sometimes there's a type of hysteria

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Speaker 1: where they go on the hunt. So it's hard to

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Speaker 1: say if this eyewitness really spotted him without his wife

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Speaker 1: or if there are simply doing their own surveillance and

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Speaker 1: thought that they spotted him. So in these kinds of cases,

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Speaker 1: I'm never so sure if the eyewitnesses that accurate. Well,

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Speaker 1: another thing about the eyewitness named Joe Anna, she posts

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Speaker 1: my husband and I stopped to pray for a guy

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Speaker 1: we met at Walmart. He said he was from New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire and his name was Dennis. He said he lost everything,

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Speaker 1: was needing help with food. He was obviously suffering some

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Speaker 1: kind of memory lapse or PTSD. What do you do

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Speaker 1: in a case like this, Julie Rendelman, New York defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: When you're desperate to find answers and you get tips,

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Speaker 1: I've helped on many, many, well countless missing persons cases.

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Speaker 1: And when you get a tip that you want so

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Speaker 1: desperately to believe, but then every everything indicates the eyewitness

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Speaker 1: was wrong, Well, look, I mean, you always have to

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Speaker 1: take any witness seriously from initially, but I have to

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Speaker 1: be honest this witness. While I'm sure she's trying to

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Speaker 1: be helpful, the description she gives of this individual does

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Speaker 1: not match in any way who we know the victim

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Speaker 1: to be. He was, There was no indication that he

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Speaker 1: was anything like what was described, So you have to

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Speaker 1: kind of question whether or not she just simply has

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Speaker 1: it wrong and move on to another potential clue. A happy,

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Speaker 1: newly wedded New Hampster couple's adventure of a lifetime seemingly

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Speaker 1: ends at a Texas beach. From there, where do you go?

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Speaker 1: David Kats, former da CEO Global Security Group, What do

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Speaker 1: you do next. Well, they're going to be able to

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Speaker 1: at least track the movements of the r V. There's enough.

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Speaker 1: There's enough license plate tracking technology, and it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be that prevalent in that part of the country,

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Speaker 1: but there are going to be points at which you're

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Speaker 1: going to find the vehicle driven past the toll booth

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Speaker 1: or a police car with the with the technology in it.

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Speaker 1: So at some point you'll be able to reverse track

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Speaker 1: the movements of that vehicle from assuming it was happening

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Speaker 1: in South Padre Island to the border. So we have

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Speaker 1: a photograph of the border and we have the ability

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Speaker 1: to track back to be some extent, and if you're lucky,

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Speaker 1: maybe you track them back to a gas station, to

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Speaker 1: a store there's there's a surveillance camera. That's the way

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Speaker 1: this case is going to be made. In my judge

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Speaker 1: to you, Chloyd Steiger, former homicide detective and author Seattle's

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Speaker 1: Forgotten Serial Killer Geary Jane Grant. Chloyd got a question

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Speaker 1: for you, what if the tag has been changed out?

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Speaker 1: I mean, any criminal worth of salt is going to

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Speaker 1: know to change out the license tag on the back

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Speaker 1: of the RV. Well, you would think, but they should

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Speaker 1: know that from the border cross at the border crossing,

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Speaker 1: because they should have had their license plates photographed at

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Speaker 1: the time. They Yeah, good, I know. I'll go across

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Speaker 1: the border to Canada quite regularly and there are cameras

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Speaker 1: everywhere taking pictures, and so I absume at the border

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Speaker 1: they took pictures of the license plate and then they

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Speaker 1: can see what was on that truck and camp or

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Speaker 1: what it did. Well before we get to the border.

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Speaker 1: What about tag grabbers? Can you explain with those? Are Chloyd? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So there are automatic license plate readers that are really

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Speaker 1: becoming bigger and bigger. Like your previous guests said, they're

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Speaker 1: on police cars. There are toll bridges, they're everywhere that

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Speaker 1: photograph your license plate. Cars going by, it'll record every plate.

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Speaker 1: The police car one will record everybody that passes. So

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Speaker 1: you can do a search of that and see again

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Speaker 1: where they were. And the other option would be, of course,

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Speaker 1: just to go back to where you know it last

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Speaker 1: was and drive to the border and check every gas

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Speaker 1: station and every store along the way and see if

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Speaker 1: there is that vehicle on the surveillance video and then

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Speaker 1: if there are people that are in it to Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. This is the

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Speaker 1: timeline as I understand it. On October fourteen, you've got

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Speaker 1: this newlywed couple checking out of Padre Bali campground. Kayla

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Speaker 1: learned that from the cops press conference that they held

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Speaker 1: October fifteen. The next day, the last Facebook was posted

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Speaker 1: of them setting up on Bernard's Beach near Corpus Christie

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Speaker 1: same day. Michelle last speaks to her son following day

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Speaker 1: October sixteen, their last known text, assuming it was sent

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Speaker 1: by them. Next day, October seventeen, they miss a very

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Speaker 1: important FaceTime that they had already scheduled with their granddaughter

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Speaker 1: to see her open a package that they sent from Bluff.

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Speaker 1: October nineteen, the camper is seen on Burner's Beach without

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Speaker 1: the truck. October twenty one, the RV and the truck

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Speaker 1: are both gone. GPS devices can no longer detect their vehicles,

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Speaker 1: so that means that GPS devices have been removed. So

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Speaker 1: Flower Bluff is actually in Corpus Christi, Texas, so that's

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Speaker 1: not that far away. To Dave Matt, do I have

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Speaker 1: the timeline down correctly? Absolutely? The reason that Flower Bluff

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Speaker 1: is important Nancy is. As I mentioned a few minutes ago,

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Speaker 1: the grandparents here were buying specific stuff for their five

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Speaker 1: year old granddaughter and they wanted to see her open

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Speaker 1: the package. It was just going to be one of

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Speaker 1: those sweet moments, and so they had mailed it out

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Speaker 1: from Flower Bluff. They knew exactly when it was going

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Speaker 1: to arrive, and everything was pre planned ahead of time

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Speaker 1: for this FaceTime call to be made. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at Fox. The couple had been camping

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Speaker 1: on Pondre Island just off Corpus Christie last month with

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Speaker 1: their truck and RV trailer in their journey of traveling

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Speaker 1: the US. Their bodies were discovered October twenty seventh. The

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Speaker 1: two were in constant contact with their family and friends

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Speaker 1: while they Zigzaga Country for the last year. Both were

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Speaker 1: very active on Facebook, posting a travel diary about the

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Speaker 1: places they stopped along the way, which included New York, Virginia, Beach, Tennessee, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, Arizona, and then Texas, where they were last

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Speaker 1: believed to be working as gate guards. That's a common

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Speaker 1: pickup job for our veers who work with security companies

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Speaker 1: to help man the entrances of oil fields, logging traffic,

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Speaker 1: people going in and out, crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Investigators say both vehicles were lasting on surveillance video between

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Speaker 1: October twentieth and twenty first, crossing the US Mexico border.

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Speaker 1: The driver was not James or Michelle. Police haven't named

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Speaker 1: a possible suspect. John Matthews is a former Dallas police officer.

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Speaker 1: He says US authorities will have to work closely with

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Speaker 1: Mexican authorities to get answers. They're gonna be looking for

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Speaker 1: bullet case scenes. They're gonna be looking for any evidence

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Speaker 1: they can tie back to the suspect. The couple had

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Speaker 1: five grown children and one grandchild. Over the weekend it

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Speaker 1: was James Butler's birthday. He would have turned forty nine

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Speaker 1: years old. Who David Kat's CEO Global Security Group. How

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Speaker 1: is it that this other couple are These other people

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Speaker 1: were spotted and the Butler's RV. Clearly they're involved to

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Speaker 1: some extent. We don't know to what extent in what

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Speaker 1: happened to the couple. That the reason I think I

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Speaker 1: said earlier that they had did not change the places

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Speaker 1: because they found very they found the vehicle identified the

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Speaker 1: vehicle very quickly at the border crossing. And then it

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Speaker 1: was a simple matter of checking the cameras at the

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Speaker 1: crossing just to see it was driving. And we find

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Speaker 1: Lo and behold, it's not mister Butler, it's someone else

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Speaker 1: and apparently an unidentified female in the passenger seat. So

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Speaker 1: this couple is now driving the deceased couples RV crossing

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Speaker 1: into Mexico. Okay, now, I don't know what could be

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Speaker 1: more scary than that finding out your loved one vehicle

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Speaker 1: crosses the border and somebody else is driving. There's no

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Speaker 1: sign of them. To Cloyd Steiger, Cloyd is at SOP

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Speaker 1: at the border, every vehicle gets photographed. Yeah, that's my

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Speaker 1: experience that they have, you know, photographs that do all

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Speaker 1: the license plates of every vehicle passing. I've actually used

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Speaker 1: that in cases where I had a suspect vehicle and

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Speaker 1: I could show them going back across, back and forth

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Speaker 1: across the border. So obviously they had to show some

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Speaker 1: kind of documents that probably ford for stolen documents to

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Speaker 1: get back into Mexico. And I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: how how firm the Mexican Border Patrol is on that stuff.

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Speaker 1: But that's certainly the first thing you look at you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, if I could you know to that

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Speaker 1: point jump in to that point. Do we know? We

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Speaker 1: don't know whether the couple, we don't know what happened

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Speaker 1: to their identification. And if you look, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the individual driving that truck, he seems like he

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Speaker 1: seems a lot younger than mister Butler. But if someone

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Speaker 1: is not paying attention and someone hands someone a document

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Speaker 1: in the name of somebody else driving the vehicle registered

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Speaker 1: that same individual, how closely is that official going to

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Speaker 1: be checking to see whether, in fact the drive is

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Speaker 1: is who who the name is on the on the

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Speaker 1: passport or other identifications. That's a really good point. They

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Speaker 1: do have similarities to the real owners the Butler couple.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Stephanie Ramos at ABC.

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Speaker 1: They were very well known in town. The family of

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Speaker 1: James and Michelle Butler say they were alvid Row trippers

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Speaker 1: on a journey to see America and beloved in their

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Speaker 1: hometown of Rumney, New Hampshire. George Bomphiglio met the two

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Speaker 1: after he purchased a store in the town and they

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Speaker 1: worked together. Sam by side by side is very great,

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Speaker 1: outgoing people. Police say. On October fifteenth, the retirees parked

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Speaker 1: their camper on Padre Island in Texas. Six days later,

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Speaker 1: the camper was captured on surveillance at a border crossing

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Speaker 1: in Mexico. The Butlers had been on the road since

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Speaker 1: June and were in constant contact with their families, so

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Speaker 1: when they missed a scheduled call, the family reported them missing.

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Speaker 1: We kind of knew that there was something really wrong

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Speaker 1: because there's no way that he would one allow somebody

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Speaker 1: else to take the truck and RV two take it

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Speaker 1: across to Mexico. We're hoping to find who it was

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Speaker 1: responsible and get an answer, you know, Julie Randelman, New

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Speaker 1: York defense attorney. I don't know about you, but you're

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Speaker 1: hearing their family and their long time neighbors. That was

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Speaker 1: George un Figlio speaking, stating they would never just hand

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Speaker 1: their RV over somebody they don't know. I don't even

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Speaker 1: like it. And my husband gives my minivan because the

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Speaker 1: side mirrors are changed, the seats change is just not

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Speaker 1: the same. Plus I don't think he handles it gently enough.

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Speaker 1: You know, Toyota is a very sensitive, long story, short

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Speaker 1: family says they would never hand over their RV to

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Speaker 1: somebody else. That's what we call behavioral evidence. When you

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Speaker 1: see something out of the ordinary that doesn't fit in,

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Speaker 1: it becomes circumstantial, evident. Absolutely, And keep in mind, this

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Speaker 1: is again a couple that was always in touch with

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Speaker 1: their family. You know, even though they wanted to travel

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Speaker 1: a lot, which by the way, I completely envy. You know,

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Speaker 1: they were in touch with them and there was absolutely

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Speaker 1: no reason they would have turned their their vehicle over

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Speaker 1: to someone, let alone have it travel over the Mexican border.

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Speaker 1: So absolutely right to David kat CEO Global Security, agree,

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Speaker 1: what safety precautions are there at the Mexican border, the

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Speaker 1: US Mexican border to figure out who is crossing back

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Speaker 1: and forth. Well, you know, you have the license plate,

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Speaker 1: ride of technology, you have photographs, you have you have

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Speaker 1: a large, large law enforcement presence. But going into Mexico,

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Speaker 1: you're you're you're at the behest of the Mexican officials,

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Speaker 1: the other ones checking you're checking the entry paperwork. You know,

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Speaker 1: typically you know, if you if you if you if

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Speaker 1: you imagine you take a plane, you want to fly

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Speaker 1: to France, You're not you have to show your passport,

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Speaker 1: of course, but you're not going through US border control

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Speaker 1: on the outbound journey, so it's the Mexican side, and

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Speaker 1: the Mexicans, as we have unfortunately found out in many

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Speaker 1: many cases, are not the best law enforcement presence in

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Speaker 1: the world that could just you know, in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's probably a very very cursory trip. There are many

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Speaker 1: people crossing a high volume. It's just get them through

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Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. And you see a couple driving

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Speaker 1: an RV, the assumption is that they're you know, for touristing,

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Speaker 1: for you know, to shop, so they're not going to

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Speaker 1: give them any meaningful level of scrutiny. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friend meg Oliver. Investigators released this image taken

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Speaker 1: from surveillance video of a male and female driving the

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Speaker 1: Butler's truck across the border into Mexico, four days after

430
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: the couple was reported missing Clayburg County share Richard Kirkpatrick.

431
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: Can you describe them? We don't know their names. As

432
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: you can tell by the picture, it appears that they've

433
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: got some distinguishing marks to them. Last year, the Butlers

434
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: left their hometown in Rumney, New Hampshire, to explore the

435
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: country in an RV. Their journey included recent stops throughout

436
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: the Southwest. Along the way, they took odd jobs to

437
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: pay for their dream adventure at a resort in Mesa, Arizona,

438
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: in the oil fields in Laredo, Texas. He said, I've

439
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: never seen the United States. Deborah Van Loon is James

440
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: Butler's sister. She says James and Michelle kept in touch regularly.

441
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: They were very good at staying in touch with their bay.

442
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: They were awesome at sharing their daily adventures. You never

443
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: think it'll be you, and then it is, and it's hard.

444
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: I just got off the phone with the district attorney

445
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: who says in arrest warrant for the man in that

446
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: photo could happen as early as tomorrow morning. How do

447
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: you issue an arrest warrant for somebody whose name you

448
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: don't know? Now we do know their names. Take a

449
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: listen to the press conference of the Kleeberg County Sheriff's Department.

450
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: This time a rest warrant has been issued for felony theft.

451
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: The individuals that are named are Adam Curtis Williams and

452
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: an Amanda Novaire, who are being sought at She's being

453
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: sought as a person of interest. At this time. We

454
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: believe that Williams to be the driver of the vehicle

455
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: that belonged to the Butlers, and at this person is

456
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: considered armed and dangerous. We asked people not approach these individuals,

457
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: but simply that we ask if you have had some contact,

458
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: that you please come forward. Currently, we believe that these

459
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: individuals may have on a law enforcement is weren't working

460
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: with our Mexican and authority to locate the subjects subjects

461
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: at this time and we are simply asking help and

462
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: locating anything any of these person's interests if anyone knows them. Again,

463
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: we just simply asked that if anybody has any information,

464
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: please contact the Clayver County Sheriff's Office and at our

465
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: telephone number three sixty one five nine five eight five

466
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: zero zero. Partial remains of a person we're seeing in

467
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: a shallow grave while life. It appears dug out the

468
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: part of the shallow grave which exposed the body in

469
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: what we secured it. We lit up the area, we

470
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: put officers out there to secure it, and it wasn't

471
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: and it was almost a nighttime, so it wasn't until

472
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: the next morning we assembled our team. It wasn't until

473
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: the next morning that we all arrived at daybreak, several

474
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: enforcement agencies, several officers along with the DPS forensic Lab,

475
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: DPS ranger and others who were out there to help us,

476
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: and that's when we started to excivate the site and

477
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: then we discover it, first the female body and then

478
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: the male body. The bodies of James and Michelle Butler

479
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: found there at Padre Island, which brings up a whole

480
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: host forensic difficulties. To former Chief Medical Examiner Chris Sperry, So,

481
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: at this point, weeks have passed, in what state do

482
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: you believe the bodies were found? I would say they

483
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: would be in moderately advanced decomposition down in South Texas

484
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: and Padre Island. It's going to be very hot and uh,

485
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, the sand that they were buried in is

486
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: also going to be extremely hot every day, So there

487
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: would be, you know, the bodies would be badly decomposed, bloated,

488
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: unidentifiable just visually, and from the description that the sheriff's

489
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: deputy gave, it sounded like animals had already gotten into, uh,

490
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: you know, into the area where the bodies were buried.

491
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: So there's going to be evidence of animal predation as

492
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: well as insects as well, insects, maggots, all kinds of

493
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: different bugs. So it's going to be it would be

494
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: very very difficult, if not impossible, to visually recognize either

495
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: one of these folks. The couple found in a shallow

496
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: grave on Padre Island near Corpus Christie. Their truck and

497
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: RV trailer crossing the US Mexico border without them in it,

498
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: driven by a man and a woman. Both vehicles sat

499
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: on surveillance between October twenty and twenty one crossing the border.

500
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely the driver was not James or Michelle. To see

501
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: the picture of the driver, go to crime online dot com.

502
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: It's a very clear picture, Dave Mac. The driver now

503
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: identified Dave mat crime online invest He had a reporter.

504
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about Adam Curtis Williams. Adam

505
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: Curtis Williams is thirty three years old, a convicted felon.

506
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: He has been known to carry multiple firearms that has

507
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: actually faced time in prison for that, and he's known

508
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: to be armed and dangerous. Does he have a record,

509
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: Dave Mac, You know, Nancy the arrest record of Adam

510
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: Curtis Williams is long and distinguished. He was arrested in

511
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: Utah back in twenty ten after a long investigation that

512
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: led to a drug bust. There two pounds of marijuana,

513
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: more than thirty two hundred dollars in cash, stolen guns,

514
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: thousand hydrocodone pills, and drug equipment. He was only twenty

515
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: four at the time. Okay, this is where it gets

516
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: a little confusing between the arrest, the charges, the convictions,

517
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: and probation. Okay, he actually was on supervised release. A

518
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: petition was filed alleging that he violated his supervised release

519
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: in July of this year. Okay. The allegations for August

520
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: fourth included possession of alcohol, assault or domestic violence, assault

521
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: by a prisoner resisting arrest. The court documents noted that

522
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: he was alleged to have committed rape, forcible sexual abuse,

523
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: and forcible sodomy. In April of twenty nineteen, he was

524
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: supposed to appear Monday in Logan's First District Court, the

525
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: Standard Examiner reporter, but he missed that court appearance. He's

526
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: also wanted for failing to appear based on charges of

527
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: aggravated assault and assault by a prisoner. He didn't appear

528
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: for that hearing on Octo over the eighth. You know,

529
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of unknowns in this formula. The man

530
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: and woman seen on surveilla is driving the Butler's truck

531
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: in RV over the border. They are clearly recognizable, especially

532
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: the man. Especially the man now Dave matt who's the

533
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: woman with him? The woman sitting next to him in

534
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: the front seat of the truck. Her name Amanda no Ver. Now,

535
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: while there is an arrest warrant for Adam Curtis Williams

536
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: for a felony theft, that's not the case with regard

537
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: to Amanda no Ver. She is merely a person of interest.

538
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: They want to talk to her. To doctor Chris Berry,

539
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: former chief medical Examiner, looking at the bodies, although they've

540
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: been buried in sand, what type of DNA would you

541
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: be looking for to track back to the killers. When

542
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: a body's been buried like this in the sand and

543
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: the body is decomposing, then the likelihood of finding some

544
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: touch DNA or transferred DNA from a trainer is really, really,

545
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: really slim. Now, the potential still may exist if there's

546
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: a fingernails scrapings, you know, if there's tissue or blood

547
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: underneath the fingernails of either one of the victims. That possibility,

548
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it is real that you could recover some

549
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: DNA from that, although even then the likelihood is maybe

550
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: one out of a hundred times, So you know, there

551
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: is a possibility, but it's slim. Yeah, it always looks

552
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: so much more easy on TV. Chris Berry, this is

553
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: what else we know? In a series Facebook posts following

554
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: the law enforcement pressor, one man says he believes he

555
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: is seeing the man in the photo and has contacted

556
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: the sheriff. He says he's almost certainly saw the man

557
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: on the beach and spoke to him that this guy

558
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: was camped on North Beach and had a trailer in

559
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: a very bad state of disrepair. We also know that

560
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: Michelle's body was found on top of James's body. We

561
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: know that the cell phone was pinging in the area

562
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: south of Bob Hall Pier near mile marker twenty six

563
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: three near padre Ballypark. Now we're learning so many different

564
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: things for forensically, but during that press conference, cops state

565
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: that the GPS coordinates were still being worked on. What

566
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: more do we know? When asked how the Butlers died.

567
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 1: Cops wouldn't comment. We also know that there were three

568
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: cats in the RV with the Butlers. We don't know

569
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: what happened to them. The Butler's left the Bally RV

570
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: Park October fifteen. Right now, the tip line, right now,

571
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: the tip line is open. Three six one five nine

572
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: five eight five repeat three six one, five nine five

573
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: eighty five hundred. If you have any information on James

574
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: and Michelle Butlers and their death, please contact authorities now.

575
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off,

576
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: goodbye friend