1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No one will ever forget

2
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,240
Speaker 1: the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom of two, Susan

3
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,639
Speaker 1: Cox Powell, and then the tragedy that befell their family

4
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 1: even after Mommy goes missing. But right now a stunning

5
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:50,000
Speaker 1: turn and the case Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the emergency.

6
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 1: My son and his wife and their two children haven't

7
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: responded to anything recording. I'm not responding because that they're

8
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: not responding to people coming on their doors tracks coming

9
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,199
Speaker 1: out of the out of town. I haven't had any

10
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 1: anything from them saying that they would be out of

11
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 1: town and bored that maybe gasps honor something like that. Sorry,

12
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,520
Speaker 1: I have to notified. Okay, can you're welcome to by

13
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 1: You're hearing a nine one one call where Josh Powell,

14
00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,360
Speaker 1: Powell's mother is desperately calling nine one one with me

15
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,319
Speaker 1: and I'll start panel to break it down, put it

16
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 1: back together again, and give you the very latest in

17
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: the case of Susan Cox Powell with me. Rose Winkwist,

18
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: investigator at Winkwist Investigations dot com. Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned

19
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,520
Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Professor Forensics,

20
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and

21
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,440
Speaker 1: now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on True Crime Network.

22
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Levi Page,

23
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 1: Sherry Davis, special guests joining US Jury four person and Bremner,

24
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of Seattle. And special

25
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:14,040
Speaker 1: guest Chuck Cox. This is Susan's father, Chuck. Do you

26
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 1: remember when you guys became very concerned you couldn't find Susan. Absolutely,

27
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 1: it's clear what happened, mister Cox. When how did you

28
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 1: first learn your wife you couldn't find Susan? Well, Josh's

29
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,959
Speaker 1: sister Jennifer called me from Salt Lake City, where she lives,

30
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 1: and told me that they couldn't find Susan or the

31
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 1: entire family. The whole family was missing. That is a stunner,

32
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,639
Speaker 1: you know. And Bremner, high profile lawyer joining me out

33
00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,640
Speaker 1: of Seattle. You don't hear that very often. You know,

34
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,119
Speaker 1: you and I have covered cases together for a long time,

35
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: and very rarely do you hear of an entire family

36
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 1: just vanishing. Well, exactly, Nancy, and that was what was

37
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,480
Speaker 1: so stunning about this case that they were all missing?

38
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 1: And then of course we know that Josh Powell really

39
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: didn't have any answers. You know, interesting because very often,

40
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: for instance, let me go to you on this, doctor

41
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,679
Speaker 1: Angela Arnold, say, you know, my husband travels a lot

42
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 1: for business, and typically he texts in immediately when he

43
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,359
Speaker 1: lands and then when hopefully when he gets to his

44
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 1: first meeting. If I don't hear from him when I

45
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,079
Speaker 1: think I'm supposed to at first, you know, it bothers me.

46
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,640
Speaker 1: But I don't hop on a plane and fly to

47
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,200
Speaker 1: wherever he is. I wait for like four or five hours.

48
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,440
Speaker 1: In this case, mister and missus Cox, they sense something.

49
00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 1: What is that feeling? It's almost a premonition, doctor Angie. Well,

50
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: and you also have to wonder if that premonition was

51
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: backed up with some pier behavior that made them worry

52
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 1: about this. Yeah, you know what, You're actually right, guys.

53
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 1: Take a listen to more of id murder mystery. On

54
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 1: the morning of December seventh, two thousand and nine, the

55
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,280
Speaker 1: Powell family is reported missing. Later that evening, Josh Powell

56
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 1: returns home with his two sons, but there's no sign

57
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 1: of his wife, twenty eight year old Susan. Josh rose

58
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,960
Speaker 1: down as passenger window and I asked him where he's been.

59
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 1: So Josh tells them that at about midnight the night before,

60
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 1: he decided to take the boys winter camping. I asked

61
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: him why he would leave and go camping in the

62
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 1: middle of the night when there's a snowstorm coming in,

63
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 1: and he said that it did this all the time.

64
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,479
Speaker 1: It wasn't anything uncommon, and his boys wanted to go

65
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 1: out in camp and have s'mores. So the detective asked

66
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,280
Speaker 1: Josh why he hadn't answered the phone in all those

67
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: hours they were trying to call him. Josh said he

68
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,560
Speaker 1: was conserving the battery because he didn't have a charger,

69
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,919
Speaker 1: but there was a charger right there plain sight. He

70
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,880
Speaker 1: told me that Susan should have been at work, and

71
00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 1: I told him that Susan was not at work, and

72
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 1: that's why we needed to go down to the office

73
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,239
Speaker 1: and talk. So let me understand this, mister Cox, Susan's missing,

74
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,440
Speaker 1: and the husband, Josh, rolls up in the car and says, oh,

75
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,719
Speaker 1: I took the children camping. You know we're a big

76
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,560
Speaker 1: camp ERUs, mister Cox, I don't know if you knew

77
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: that or not. We take the twins camping in r

78
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: ving all the time. Rule number one, dope, pitch a

79
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 1: tent and the dark. Rule number one real number two

80
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 1: always have your chargers with you. So his story was

81
00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,559
Speaker 1: that the boys. How old were they at the time, Chuck,

82
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: I believe they were two and four, So let me understand.

83
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 1: And Bremner, he takes a two year old and a

84
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: four year old camping in the snow at midnight. Yeah,

85
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 1: presumably they're both in diapers. But that's what he said,

86
00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,840
Speaker 1: and that's why the case was so incredible from the beginning.

87
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 1: That's well, you know what, I know your take on

88
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 1: an Anne Bremner, because you've been standing by the Cox

89
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,039
Speaker 1: family from the get go. I'd like to go to

90
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,719
Speaker 1: a special guest joining us the jury four person on

91
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 1: the Cox Powell jury, Sherry Davis. Miss Davis, it's a

92
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,599
Speaker 1: real honor to speak to you. Very rarely do we

93
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 1: get to hear what a jury actually thought when you

94
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,159
Speaker 1: heard that fact? What did you think? Very hard to

95
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 1: listen to some of the facts that were presented to us.

96
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,159
Speaker 1: We had to keep reminding ourselves was even though these

97
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,599
Speaker 1: tragic events happened to the children. That is not the

98
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,800
Speaker 1: trial that we were on, and you kind of had

99
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 1: to keep that in check in your mind. You know what.

100
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: It's so reassuring for me to hear your voice, Miss Davis,

101
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 1: because there seems so levelheaded and calm, and that is

102
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 1: exactly what we need on Jury's. The only jurar of

103
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,880
Speaker 1: mine that I've really got to talk to is my dentist.

104
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: I coincidentally got a dentist years later, and he, as

105
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 1: he was working on my teeth, said, you know, it's

106
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: on your jury, right, it's a jury. And since then

107
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 1: we've talked about it, you know, years later, but I'm

108
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 1: just so relieved to hear your voice of reason. Guys,

109
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell. Her

110
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 1: husband claims he takes their children, ages two and four,

111
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 1: out camping at midnight in the snow and that Susan

112
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 1: should be at work. Take a listen to more of

113
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 1: ID murder Mystery. Police look around and they find something

114
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,240
Speaker 1: very odd. Susan Powell's purse is there, her wallet's there,

115
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 1: her keys are there. Also. Inside the purse, they find

116
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: this small key. They're not sure what it goes to

117
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 1: and on top of that, they find her snowboots at home.

118
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 1: So why Susan lee without her purse, her wallet and

119
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 1: keys and her boots when it's been snowing out Crime

120
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 1: stories With Nancy Grace, we were talking about the disappearance

121
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: of a gorgeous young mom, Susan Cox Powell, and the

122
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,679
Speaker 1: tragedy that befell their family even after her her death.

123
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,679
Speaker 1: Susan is dead, her body has never been found, but

124
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,959
Speaker 1: mommy disappears, leaving behind a two and four year old

125
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,320
Speaker 1: little boy. She would never do that. In the last hours,

126
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 1: a stunning turn in the case. But first listen to

127
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,719
Speaker 1: this id murder mystery. A West Valley City detective is

128
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 1: assigned to the case. I am retired Detective Ellis Maxwell,

129
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,560
Speaker 1: and I was lead detective on the pal investigation. As

130
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: I entered into the house, it didn't appear that somebody

131
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: entered the home to rob them, were kidnapped them, or

132
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: anything like that. As we walked through the residence, I

133
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 1: noticed that there is two box fans that were set

134
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 1: up in the front room that we're in operation blowing

135
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: towards the carpet. Also, it appeared that somebody had cleaned

136
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: the couch. The carpets hadn't been cleaned, just this one couch.

137
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 1: So that was kind of suspicious, straight to you. Joseph

138
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and so much

139
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: and more now The Star a Poisonous Liaison's True Crime Network.

140
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. YEA, with this abundance of circumstantial evidence, I

141
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,199
Speaker 1: don't know quite where to start. So they go in

142
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,720
Speaker 1: and they see nothing amiss. Everything's in order except jump

143
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,839
Speaker 1: in Joe Scott. Well, yeah, the one thing that they

144
00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: see that is in question is this wet spot that

145
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 1: fans are blowing on the sofa. And you know, there's

146
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,679
Speaker 1: several conclusions that we could arrive at here. Maybe somebody

147
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,440
Speaker 1: just incidentally drop something on the sofa, they got it wet,

148
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: they spilled a drink, or maybe somebody sustained trauma in

149
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: that specific spot. Let's think about the construction of a sofa. Nancy,

150
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 1: if somebody's relaxed, see there on sofa, what do you

151
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,840
Speaker 1: have access to? Well, you've got them in a relax position.

152
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 1: You can literally walk behind them and do great harm

153
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,679
Speaker 1: to them without them ever suspecting it or knowing it.

154
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 1: And that's one of the questions that comes to mind

155
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: for me, because there's no other signs of struggle, there's

156
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 1: no signs of fourth century, there's no signs of theft

157
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,080
Speaker 1: of anything. It's just that one central area. And as

158
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 1: the detective had mentioned, they were right to consider this.

159
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 1: This is something you have to you know, who puts

160
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: up fans in an area to dry this spot out specifically,

161
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 1: so it could be an indication that something to ariuses

162
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: have with me. Rose win Quist, she's a renowned investigator

163
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 1: joining us. You can find her at win Quest wi

164
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 1: n qui st win quest Investigations dot com. Rose, thank

165
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,800
Speaker 1: you for being with us. I understand that the boys

166
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: after the dad brings them home, after he tells cops

167
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: about their midnight camping trip in the snow um, they

168
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 1: were questioned and they drew pictures of where mommy was.

169
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,000
Speaker 1: What were the drawings of, well, Nancy. The drawings were

170
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: actually sometime later, and they were that mommy was buried,

171
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 1: that that if you if you wanted to kill a bear,

172
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: you bury it under the dirt and you plant a

173
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: tree or you plant flowers on top of it. And

174
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 1: as time went on, after mommy had disappeared. The boys

175
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 1: started to talk a little bit more and expose some

176
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 1: things that I think their father didn't want them to

177
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 1: talk about. And Bremner what was exposed well, at first

178
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:18,679
Speaker 1: that they drew a picture of a body in the

179
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: trunk of a car of their mom, and then there

180
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,199
Speaker 1: were a number of statements like, mommy's in my mind,

181
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 1: mommy went camping with us. She didn't come back, didn't

182
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 1: they say? Mommy went in the caves looking for crystals. Yes, exactly, Nancy,

183
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,720
Speaker 1: and then she didn't come back with them. In the

184
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,960
Speaker 1: car Mommy, in one of the drawings, was in the

185
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,199
Speaker 1: trunk of the car. Yes, she was in the trunk

186
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 1: of the car. I mean, you know, Anne, you know

187
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: what I went through to have the twins we were

188
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: to get I remember, yeah, And I have up over

189
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 1: the microwave right now. Pictures they drew when they were

190
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: in kindergarten. And it's Lucy drew me and my braves,

191
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: t shirt and black tides as usual, whip yella air

192
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 1: sticking out and that's the way she dreamy. I'm in

193
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,480
Speaker 1: a picture holding hands with her. John David drew the

194
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 1: whole family, all of us holding hands. If they had

195
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 1: drawn me in a car trunk. I mean, I just

196
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,080
Speaker 1: don't understand why this was never taken to trial. Anne,

197
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,280
Speaker 1: I don't understand why Josh Powell waiting say his name,

198
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 1: was not tried for murder. I know. And the DA

199
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,880
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake City was Lake City wanted a body.

200
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 1: But they had this safe deposit box with their last

201
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 1: will and testament saying if anything happened to her, he

202
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 1: did at the blood in the house. You know, the

203
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,280
Speaker 1: concocted story. You know, three point five million dollars in

204
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 1: life insurance and Josh took out on Susan. I could

205
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,640
Speaker 1: go on and on. Plus they had issues in their

206
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 1: marriage right before this happened, and she was talking about

207
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: leaving him, So issues in their marriage. That's certainly putting

208
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 1: perfume on the pig, right, Isn't it true, mister Cox,

209
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,439
Speaker 1: that Susan's husband, Josh, had a father that was later

210
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:13,679
Speaker 1: convicted as it relates to lewd photos, and he had

211
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: been spying on your daughter and taking her underwear and

212
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,000
Speaker 1: her hose. And I remember in one scenario he set

213
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 1: up pillows as if they were a person on the

214
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: bed and put her picture at the top and made

215
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 1: out with the pillows. This is her father in law,

216
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 1: and Josh Powell knew about it and blamed her. He

217
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 1: was a sick, sick person. And her husband. Yeah, no,

218
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: one wouldn't believed any of that. And actually we didn't

219
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: have any idea of that. Kill after well after the fact,

220
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 1: and once they got intoto Steve's information and stuff. But

221
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,960
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of pictures take it, including her when

222
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 1: she didn't know that she was being photographed. And that's

223
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 1: how they had to live and didn't the father, the

224
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 1: father in law lived with them for a period of time. Yes,

225
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 1: they lived with him and to have that every day,

226
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 1: and she would rebuff his advances. It just went on

227
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,200
Speaker 1: and on. She didn't want to leave the boys, the

228
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: bottom line, and she was the bread winner. She was

229
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 1: the happy mom with the children. And he couldn't take it.

230
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: He could not take it. And he exactly Nancy, and

231
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 1: he was completely controlling with the money with the kids.

232
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 1: He had to ride a bike to work. Sometimes she

233
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 1: had with the kids in the basket of the bike.

234
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 1: I mean she said she had to ride a bike

235
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: to work. She had to ride a bike to work.

236
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 1: He used the car and he didn't work, and they

237
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 1: had to have daycare even though he didn't work, so

238
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 1: there were all kinds of issues in the marriage. You know,

239
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 1: he was a very, very controlling person and also emotionally abusive,

240
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 1: and at least from one report, he hit her in

241
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 1: the fame Doctor Angela An help me. I mean, one

242
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 1: of your expertise is dealing with women with these type

243
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 1: of problems. Of course, Susan herself didn't have the problem internally.

244
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: The problem was Josh Powell. And it sounds like Josh

245
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 1: Powell's family was a problem too, a big problem, and

246
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: he let it. Josh me something, daughter, Angie, do you

247
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 1: know since I met my husband when I was in college,

248
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 1: his mother and father and I never had one cross word,

249
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: not one. That's like unheard of. With all of this

250
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 1: going on, I don't understand how Josh Powell escaped going

251
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 1: to try Oh I don't either. But the years, yeah,

252
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 1: the years rock on and nothing happens. And even after

253
00:16:53,800 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 1: Mommy is presumed dead, somehow Josh Powell is allowed visitation,

254
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 1: He gets to be with the boys. How did that happen?

255
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:24,879
Speaker 1: With clear evidence that he killed Mommy? Crime Stories with

256
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, we are talking about the disappearance no. The

257
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 1: death of Susan Cox Powell, although her body has never

258
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 1: been found. Now we have her killer, her husband, Josh Powell,

259
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 1: with the Little Boys. Take a listen to this nine

260
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: one one call by Elizabeth Griffin Hall, social worker. Hey,

261
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 1: I'm on a hypervised visitation for accord or to get it,

262
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: and I'm something really weird. It happened to kid going

263
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,200
Speaker 1: into the house and the parents, the biological parent who

264
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,680
Speaker 1: came as Josh Powell, will not let me in the door.

265
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 1: What should I do? It's eight one one nine and

266
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 1: I think it's eighty nine. Um, I don't know what

267
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: the addressive. It's very important for me to know. UM,

268
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: I can't just gonna let me get in my car

269
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: and see if I can if I can find it.

270
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: I'm nothing like this has ever happened before. Um ephisication.

271
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 1: So I'm really um shocked and I could care one

272
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: of the kids crying, but they still wouldn't let me in.

273
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 1: But I think I need help right away. He kids

274
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,880
Speaker 1: on a very swhart release to PFAHF and CPS that's

275
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: been involved, and this is the sati of thing. He

276
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 1: looked right up and close the door. You don't know

277
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 1: the address of where you are, and you're babbling on

278
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,919
Speaker 1: and on and all we're a you're a child, crying

279
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 1: and screaming inside. Listen more of that nine one one call.

280
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: And I'd like to pull out of that driveway because

281
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 1: they smelled gasolene and he won't let me in. You

282
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 1: want to pull out of the driveway because you smell

283
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: gasolene that he won't let you. He won't let me in.

284
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 1: He won't let you out of the driveway, He won't

285
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: let me in the house. Who gets in the house

286
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,359
Speaker 1: and he won't let me in. It's a supervised visit.

287
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,119
Speaker 1: I understand whose house is it? Josh Powell? Okay, so

288
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,919
Speaker 1: you don't live there, right? And now I don't you

289
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: know I'm contracted to the state to provide supervise the visitation,

290
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 1: I think. Okay, okay, so you're supposed to be there

291
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,120
Speaker 1: to supervise Josh Powell's visit with the children. Yes, that's correct.

292
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 1: And how did that he's a husband of missing Susan Powell.

293
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 1: How does this at the high profile case? How did

294
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: he How did he gain access to the children? Before

295
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 1: you talk? I was one step in back of them. Okay,

296
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 1: So how you walked you out. Yeah, put the door

297
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 1: right in my face. And Ramner, how did he have

298
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: the children? Why was he getting to be with the boys?

299
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that was a big question in our child.

300
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: There were forty six red flags as to why he

301
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 1: shouldn't have visitation with those kids, one of which was

302
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 1: that he killed his wife. Um, and the kids were witnesses,

303
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 1: so the kids could be endangered by being witnesses by

304
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 1: being with him. But forty six red flags, UM, cps

305
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 1: filated their own policies and procedures. They didn't tell the judge,

306
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 1: They didn't ask the judge like can we put him,

307
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,479
Speaker 1: you know, within the home? But they did and he

308
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 1: that's when he hatchet in them to death and set

309
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: them on fire and killed them. And it was an egregious,

310
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 1: terrible case and one in which CPS you know, shouldn't

311
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: hang their head in shame for what they did and

312
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 1: what they didn't do. And listen to this, oll I man,

313
00:20:51,760 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: when you're calling up the farm, if they one nine,

314
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: one eighty nine, clartyne, you're not going to let them out. Yeah,

315
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,439
Speaker 1: there was a man and the children. I just dropped

316
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: off the Kenny wouldn't let me in the door. A'm

317
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 1: line for the perty farm. Okay, I'm gonna get them

318
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,879
Speaker 1: on the line to knocking up home. Joining me is

319
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: Sherry Davis, the jury four person on the Cox Powell jury. Sherry, again,

320
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Mister and

321
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: miss Cox sued Washington's Apartment of Social and Health Services

322
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: after Josh Powell murdered his two little boys and blew

323
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: up the home. Why did you believe they were responsible?

324
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: In part, they did not follow their own policies and

325
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: procedures that they had in their manuals. They did not

326
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: properly train their employees, They did not have a solid

327
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: safety plan. They were one hundred percent were responsible for

328
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: those children, and they lost custody as soon as that

329
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: door slammed. Did you hear her on the phone not

330
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: knowing the address, falling around, moving her own car so

331
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: should be safe while the boys are in there, crying

332
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: and screaming. Yeah, that was very hard to listen to.

333
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,239
Speaker 1: But they knew that he was a risk. Because they

334
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: knew that he was a flight risk, they knew the background.

335
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: Certainly there should have been a safety plan so that

336
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: the nine one one operator, the police department, anybody would

337
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: be easily warned if there was a problem in situation

338
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: that happened. What I don't understand, Miss Davis with me

339
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: is Sherry Davis Jury four person on the Cox Powell jury,

340
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 1: is how Josh Powell got to be with the boys

341
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 1: unsupervised to start with, I don't know either. That's a

342
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: great question. I mean the father in law, his father

343
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: had all those pornographic images and he had the boys

344
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: in the home where the father was he's a sex offender.

345
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: But Josh Powell let his chill be around a sex offender.

346
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: And not only that, he killed Susan. I mean, when

347
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: you were listening to the evidence, what possible excuse did

348
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: Defects Department, Family Shoulder Services give? Oh, they blamed it

349
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 1: on everybody else but themselves. Everybody else. They blamed on

350
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: the sheriff and the police department not exchanging information. But

351
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, it's their own policies

352
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: and procedures that failed those children, you know, Miss Davis,

353
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: I was just list I just play which you're sure

354
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: you heard the Defects workers saying he is on a

355
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: very short leash? Which Child's services you know, is Josh

356
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: Powell of the famous Susan Cox Powell case she went missing.

357
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: Clearly they knew what had happened, they knew all the details.

358
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: But yet they still let the boys in, the boys

359
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: in his clutches. Yes, yes, they've still allowed it. And

360
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: this is the result of that. That's all on them.

361
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: The big bombshell right now, Miss Davis, is that a

362
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: judge has intervened in your verdict? What was your verdict?

363
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: After hearing what happened to Brandon and Charlie, we unanimously

364
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: as a jury found the state liable for the deaths

365
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: of them. And in the jury questions, we were asked

366
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: how much we would award the state, and we awarded

367
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: the states one hundred and fifteen or we awarded the pals,

368
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: the states of the boys one hundred and fifteen million dollars.

369
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: So after hearing million dollars five million dollars? What five

370
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: million dollars for every minute that they lost custody and

371
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: the children until that house exploded before they were relinquished

372
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: of their responsibilities. And isn't it true, Miss Davis, that

373
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: you guys learned that the boys not only endured the

374
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: explosion in the home, but their next had been chopped

375
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: as well. I want the last of them, Miss Davis.

376
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: When you and your jury awarded one hundred million dollar

377
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: verdict to Susan Cox's parents over what defects put them

378
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: through resulting in the death of the two boys, did

379
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: you ever imagine that another judge would come along and

380
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: tamper with your verdict? No, never, never would have thought

381
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: that would ever have happened, Miss Davis. If you could

382
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: just stay with us one more minute, LEVI page, explain

383
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: what has happened in the last days to the verdict

384
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: that Sherry Davis and her jury awarded. So the judge

385
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: in the case, Judge Wamba, said that he thought that

386
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: the jury was going by their passions in setting such

387
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: a high dollar verdict, and he said, quote, it's not

388
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: the size of the verdict alone, most certainly that is

389
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: an indicator. It's whether the size of the verdict, in

390
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: light of the evidence produced, shocks the conscious of the court,

391
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: and in this case it does so. Judge Rumback cut

392
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: the jury's award to thirty two point eight million dollars

393
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: to Susan's family. Time stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, we

394
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: are talking about not only the disappearance and presumed death

395
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: of Susan Cox Powell, but the horrible brutal butchering of

396
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: her two little boys at the hand of her husband.

397
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: With me the jury four person Sherry Davis, Miss Davis,

398
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: when you learned the judge had cut your verdict, after

399
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: all the days, all the hours, the deliberation is suffering

400
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: the jury went through hearing all of this, What did

401
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: you think? I felt like, why even have a jury

402
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: if you're going to throw this out? Why even put

403
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: us through all of this and then just say, well,

404
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: you know whatever, Okay, we're going to reduce it. It

405
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense in your mind, Miss Davis. What did

406
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: your fellow jurars go through? What bothered the jury the

407
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: most as they heard the facts unfold? It was the

408
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: negligent of the state and all their processes that occurred

409
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: to lead us up to that point. What happened when

410
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: that door slimmed. We were not being We were not

411
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: judging that. That was not part of what we were considering.

412
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: We were considering was the state liable? And how did

413
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: they lose custody of those children? And why did they

414
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: let those jewels be with Josh in his own home.

415
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: That's what we were judging in your mind, Miss Davis,

416
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: what stuck out is the clearest problem with Josh Powell

417
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: having the boys every visitation that he had in a

418
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 1: state run facility, he was pushing the point of what

419
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: he could get away with, and every time it was

420
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: something else. That was bringing knife to cut pumpkins, it

421
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: was bringing a hammer who work on a project weapon.

422
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: He was bringing weapons to every visitation. How come that

423
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: was not stopped and then they still allowed him to

424
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: have visitation anybody, Miss Davis, with me a special guest

425
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: Jury four person on the trial in the last hour,

426
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: a stunning, stunning blow to the vic family. A judge

427
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: in all of his so called wisdom, slashes the jury

428
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: award to the Cox family after losing not only their

429
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: daughter but their two grand boys to murder at the

430
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: hands of their son in law. Miss Davis, what do

431
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: you believe after hearing the evidence pushed Josh Powell over

432
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: the edge that ended in the murder of his two boys.

433
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: I think it was accumulation of different things. The Utah

434
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: was getting close to a possible arrest, the photos were

435
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: going to be released that were found on his home

436
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: in Utah, and he was being postponed from getting the

437
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: children's custody back. He was having to post from a

438
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: psychosexual evaluation. I think it was accumulation of a whole

439
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: bunch of different things that just pushed the button. And Bremner,

440
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: what does she mean? You've explained this to me before

441
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: about Josh Powell was about to undergo a psycho sexual

442
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: evaluation and what would that mean to him? I think

443
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: Sherry Davis is right now, She's absolutely right, and it

444
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: would mean a polygraph, and that was what he heared most,

445
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: a polygraph that could include questions about sis and Powell

446
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: under disappearance. Nancy, can I interject there were stimulated child pornography,

447
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: cartoon child pornography found on his computer, along with bestiality

448
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: pornography and incests pornography. That's why he was having to

449
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: undergo a psychosexual evaluation. And that's the man who had

450
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: supervised the visitation with his kids. And did the jury

451
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: know about the child sex porn simulation and the bestiality videos?

452
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: Did the jury hear that? Yeah? And there were foreigner

453
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: damages Nancy on Josh's computer in Utah. They called a

454
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: cartoon porn but it was pretty graphic. And of course

455
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: Steve Pale had all kinds of pornography in the house

456
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: where the children resided. We called that house of horrors.

457
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: There was a new singing from the ceiling gallows and

458
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: all kinds of pornography in that house. So there was

459
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence of pornography connected to Josh Powell.

460
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: Shake to listen to our fran Bin Tricy at CBS News.

461
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: As Arson investigators continued to search through what's left of

462
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: the Powell home, the medical examiner now says seven year

463
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: old Charlie in five year old Braden Powell suffered chop

464
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: injuries to their head and necks. The sheriff says their father,

465
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: Josh Powell, then started the house on fire. We found

466
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: two five gallon cans of gas. One of them was

467
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: with the bodies, the other one we believe was spread

468
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: throughout the house. There was accelerants throughout the whole entire

469
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: house police. Before he carried out the murder suicide, Powell

470
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: donated his son's toys to charity and left instructions about

471
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: his personal effects in multiple emails. He sent some mels

472
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: out to family and a pastor and some other people,

473
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: making sure that everybody knew that he was gone that

474
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: he was the one that did this. He had put

475
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: a plan in motion and he carried it out. Powell

476
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: had been under police scrutiny following the suspicious disappearance of

477
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: his wife, Susan Cox Powell from their Utah home in

478
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: December two thousand and nine. Six days ago, he lost

479
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: a battle with Susan's parents for custody of his sons.

480
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: It's hard for men to believe Joseph Scott Morgan. There

481
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: was not enough evidence to take Josh Powell to trial

482
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: for murder the murder of Susan Cox Powell. Yeah, yeah, no, kid,

483
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: And Nancy, I'm I'm just absolutely struck by this idea

484
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: that the state, the state mandates that, you know, this

485
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: guy be treated in a particular way, and they don't

486
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: follow up with it. Well, if you've got enough information

487
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: that gives you that this guy is a deviant to

488
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: begin with, and then you have this poor woman who

489
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: has been missing for years, how can you not move

490
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: forward with a case. And one other thing, I just

491
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: want to kind of circle back to here, Nancy. We

492
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 1: talked about this wet spot that was on the sofa

493
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: with Susan much earlier, and you know, the idea here

494
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: for me at least, is that she was attacked and

495
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: what do we know about these boys for the medical examiner,

496
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: they were attacked with an instrument that was a chopping instrument. Nancy.

497
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: I think that just like a lot of these cases

498
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: that we see, these perpetrators utilize a particular methodology for

499
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: killing somebody that they get comfortable with, and this is

500
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: a close and personal Nancy. I think that he probably

501
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: applied this before Susan, and he applied this to these

502
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: babies as well, before he set their bodies on fire.

503
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: Rose win Quist, investigator at Winquist Investigations dot com. I

504
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: just heard that Josh Powell has sent emails to people,

505
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: including a pastor, about what was to become of his family.

506
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: People that guy. These emails didn't act on it was

507
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't it clear that a tragedy was impending, Yes, Nancy,

508
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: I think it was very clear, especially he I think

509
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: he made a couple of phone calls as well. They

510
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: were simultaneously I think sent so that people didn't really

511
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: have enough time to act, and he just went about

512
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: pouring the gas in the house. I think that probably

513
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: happened before he even sent emails or made songe calls,

514
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: but it was clear that he was saying goodbye and

515
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: that he was responsible for killing his children and himself.

516
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: To Chuck Cox, this is Susan's dad. When you look

517
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: back on everything that happened, and now a judge has

518
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: come along and slashed the vartic, it's not just about

519
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: the money, it's the point. What goes through your mind,

520
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: mister Cox, Well, nothing he's going to bring back to

521
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: Charlie Bradner Susan. However, we were planning on making a

522
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: legacy or using the funds to do a legacy in

523
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: their behalf and to address the issues the follow the

524
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: problems of GSHS, how they were not following their policies

525
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: and we wanted to make sure that this doesn't happen

526
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: to other children, because if they're not following their policies,

527
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: they will continue to put children in danger, they will

528
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: continue to have these issues. And so we were battling

529
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: that those issues, and it's just the judge rumba in

530
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: this case. He started out clearly as in favor of

531
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: the state position, and as hit the more he learned,

532
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: he came back to more towards neutral, But in the

533
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: end he just turned around and went back to his

534
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: bias and substituting his opinion for the jury. He was

535
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: not the trier of fact in this case. The jury

536
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: was a trier of fact. And that's why we wanted

537
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: a jury trial because we were not getting an unbiased

538
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: trier of fact with the judges. They all worked for

539
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: the state and so that's very difficult to do. So

540
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: here we got the jury, and now the judge takes

541
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: it on himself to just reduce everything and basically try

542
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: and make it go away. And that's what everyone's done

543
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: with these children in the whole case, is trying to

544
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: make it go away. People have not done their jobs.

545
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: So I don't know what I can say about except

546
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: for the jury did a great job and we want

547
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: to make sure that we support them and appeal this

548
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: arbitrary decision of the judge and he gets things back

549
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: one where the jury found. Pierce County Superior Court Judge

550
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: Stanley Rumball has basically and I don't know want the

551
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: twins say this pissed on the jury verdict and Bremner,

552
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: please tell me you are appealing this. We are Nancy,

553
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean he said it was unconscious, passionate, prejudice. As

554
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: you knew well known, Nancy, it has to be manifest

555
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: to overturn a jury's verdict, I mean jury verdicts. Or

556
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 1: Sack was saying, this jury served to the pandemic five

557
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: weeks before five months hiatus, and they came back for

558
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: three more weeks in a socially distance trial with mass On.

559
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean, they were an amazing once in a lifetime jury.

560
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: And you heard Sherry, She's incredible, and that that sacrifice,

561
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: that attention, that diligence that they showed. He just decided

562
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: to slash the verdict by two thirty. I don't think

563
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: he shouldn't even be on the bench. Pierce County Superior

564
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,959
Speaker 1: Court Judge Stanley Rumball, he needs to be off the bench.

565
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: And I'm very surprised there has not been a recall effort.

566
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: What exactly is the county in the jurisdiction where he is,

567
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: Pierce County, Washington, What Tacoma, Pierce County, Pierce County, and

568
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: that's in Washington, Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington. I'm very surprised there's

569
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: not a recall effort for this judge. We wait as

570
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime story signing off goodbye friend,