1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Brigittad and this is 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet. I am here 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: at my producer, Mike. Mike, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: It's great to have you back, Bridgie. It's good to 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: be back. I'm excited to get into all the news 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: from the internet that people might have mixed. 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's do it. If you have ever bought 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: anything from Amazon dot com, you might want to check 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: to make sure that you did not accidentally subscribe to 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: Amazon Prime, because you might be paying one hundred and 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: forty dollars a year to Amazon without even knowing it. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: And that's because, according to a new lawsuit from the FTC, 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: Amazon executives were okay with people being secretly signed up 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: for Amazon Prime memberships without their knowledge. This has to 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: do with a practice called dark patterns, which is when 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: websites use kind of like iffy practices to trick us 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: into clicking on things that we don't actually want to 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: click on, or making it hard for us to click 20 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: on things that they don't want us to click on, 21 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: like us finding that hidden unsubscribed button according to Verge, 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: The lawsuit says that Amazon tricked millions of people into 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: unwittingly subscribing to Amazon Prime through buttons that were presented 24 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: prominently during checkout. Their complain includes internal messages and the 25 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: names of three specific senior Amazon leaders who allegedly played 26 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: a key role in this scheme. So these three specific 27 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Amazon higher ups who were named in the complaint were 28 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: warned that Amazon was using these deceptive tactics to create 29 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: an enrollment process for Prime that was easy for customers 30 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: to accidentally trigger. Amazon employees were expressing concerns to company 31 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: leadership about these strategies in twenty sixteen, but those executives 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: took no action. For example, Amazon designers once asked Neil Lindsay, 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: the senior vice president who oversaw Amazon Prime, about how 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: the company was tricking people in the signing up for Prime, 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: and Lindsay, according to the lawsuit, said that Amazon was 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: okay with this because quote, once customers became Prime members, 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: even unknowingly, they will see what a great program it 38 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: is and remain members. The complaint also includes new internal 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: messages and emails indicating that Amazon and its leadership was 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: aware of their deception. One company newsletter reads quote the 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: issue of accidental Prime signups is well documented, while admitting 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: that Prime customers sign up accidentally and don't always see 43 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: the auto renewal terms. So this would be bad enough. 44 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: But have you ever actually tried to cancel your Amazon 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: Prime subscription? Because I have, and the process is so 46 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: cumbersome and complicated and long that eventually I gave up. 47 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I don't have time for this, 48 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: I'll just keep Amazon Prime, which I bet is exactly 49 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: what they want. This is by design, according to the FTC, 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: once customers were signed up, Amazon created an intentionally complicated 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: cancelation process. The process that you have to go through 52 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: to cancel. Amazon Prime even had a pretty telling internal 53 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: code name, the Iliad, preferring to Homer's ancient epic poem. 54 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: So in addition to making it intentionally super easy to 55 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: accidentally subscribe to Prime, they made it intentionally super complicated 56 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: and cumbersome to unsubscribe from Prime. So it really seems 57 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: like they knew what they were doing there. 58 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: I love the use of classical literature to refer to 59 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: this sort of thing. Obviously they know that what they're 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: doing is not good and deceptive, but naming it the 61 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: iliad just I don't know, it elevates it a little bit. 62 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 2: I respect it, you know. I feel like, if you're 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: an Amazon engineer trapped in this uncomfortable pattern of tricking 64 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: people into buying shit that they don't want, finding refuge 65 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: in classical literature, it's kind of sweet and I respect 66 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: it and I love it. For them, it's like. 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: A highbrow scam, like they're scamming, but they're doing it 68 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: in a literary way. Yeah, So the FTC was recently 69 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: on kind of a tear about this. The FTC even 70 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: floated banning any subscription, whether it was for a shopping 71 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: membership or a gym membership, where the cancelation process is 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: much harder than the sign up process. Under the ban 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: that they were initially proposing, people would have to be 74 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: able to use the same method for canceling a subscription 75 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: that they use for the sign up. So this includes 76 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: letting people use the same method for both actions. So 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: a business could not, for instance, let somebody sign up 78 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: easily and quickly for a service online, but make them 79 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: call a phone number or like go in person to cancel. 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: And you know what, I'm gonna name names Washington Sports 81 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: Club on Fourteenth Street in DC. I am talking to you. 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: They like you could easily sign up, but then when 83 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: you wanted to cancel, it was like, oh, well you 84 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: have to like send a physical email and like physically 85 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: come to the gym to cancel. 86 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: Uh uh. 87 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: So, when the FTC was floating this ban on like 88 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: making it super cumbersome to cancel subscriptions, big businesses and 89 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: advertisers not happy. I feel like everyone like pretty universally 90 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: hate not being able to easily cancel a subscription. But 91 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: the Association of National Advertiser says, actually, maybe we're wrong, 92 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: and we all like secretly like it. They said, if 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: sellers are required to enable cancelation through a single click 94 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: or action by the consumer, accidental cancelations will become much 95 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: more common, as consumers will not reasonably expect to remove 96 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: their recurring goods or services with just one click. So 97 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: they're tricking us, but they're tricking us for our own good. 98 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: It's like better for us the consumer if we allow 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: them to trick us, and actually maybe we kind of 100 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: like it. 101 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, we want it, we need it. And if they 102 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: make it too easy for us dumb dums to actually cancel, 103 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: it will. 104 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: Be sad, like, please let me, don't let me easily 105 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: candle the subscription that I never wanted and I'm not 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: even aware that I purchased in the first place. 107 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: It's just hard to imagine that anybody would be said 108 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: about like missing out on a subscription. Like, I subscribed 109 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: to so many things, and I love all of them. 110 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: I am happy to support all of them. But you 111 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: know sometimes like like one time I lost my wallet 112 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: and I had to cancel my credit card and some 113 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: of my subscriptions got canceled. It was the most fine 114 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: thing that has ever happened, Like it could not have 115 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: been less disruptive. It was like, oh, yeah, this thing 116 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: that I signed up for, I guess I need to 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: enter a new credit card. This is not a big problem. 118 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: Beyond fine, it's I find it freeing when you got 119 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: to get a new credit card. If you lose your 120 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: you lose your credit card, you have to get a 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: new one. And so you realize, like you get those 122 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: emails rolling in that's like, oh, your credit card payment 123 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: didn't go through to this, to that, to this to that. 124 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: You're like, I've actually had a lot of different recurring 125 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: charges on my card and now I can just start 126 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: over and like be free. I actually find it very freeing. 127 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: And also it's like wild to see, I mean, if 128 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: you're if you're me, wild to see how many just 129 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: reoccurring charges you have on your card. 130 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. I agree. I wish I were a more responsible 131 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: person who is more on top of all my recurring charges, 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: but like declaring recurring bankruptcy once a year and just 133 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: like wiping it all clean and being like the things 134 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: that I was paying for that I don't care about 135 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: will just go away, and the things that I do 136 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: care about, they will let me know that my subscription 137 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: has lapsed, and I will enter a new credit card 138 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: and two minutes later all problems will be resolved. 139 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think this story really speaks to sort 140 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: of a larger trend that we've identified on the show 141 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: before of everything on the internet feeling like it is 142 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: a low key scam. These days, we've just come to 143 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: expect that the experience of navigating the online space is 144 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: going to be a wash in like dark patterns and 145 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: tricks and scams and bots and little design choices that 146 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: are making you click on things that you don't want 147 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: to click. I just don't like that. You know, these 148 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: big platforms that already take so much of our money 149 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: and take so much of our data, take so much 150 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: of our attention, so much of our everything also have 151 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: to be tricking us and scamming us on top of it. 152 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: I don't like it. I think we deserve better. 153 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: It's messed up that we have just accepted that being 154 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: scammed like this is just a normal part of doing 155 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: business on the Internet. That is like super easy for 156 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: us to give our money away to companies who are 157 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: charging money for stuff, but to try to I don't 158 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: get something back is a herculean effort that you have 159 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: to have secret knowledge and scroll deep to the bottom 160 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: of the footer. It's not okay, it's bad. 161 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: It's bad. I believe that we deserve an Internet experience 162 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: that is not so predatory and not so awash in scams. 163 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: And speaking of the Internet not being such a trustworthy place, 164 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: we've talked before about how we can no longer really 165 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: trust that search platforms like Google are going to provide 166 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: us with accurate information about something as important as our 167 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: health and our medical choices. To combat that, abortion advocates 168 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: have released Charlie, a chatbot that was built specifically to 169 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: reach folks and states where abortion has been banned or 170 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: restricted to help connect them with information about abortion. Access Charlie, 171 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: which communicates in both English and Spanish, is accessible through 172 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: the website Chat with Charlie dot org or on the 173 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: websites for Abortion on Our Terms and Abortion Access Front. 174 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,479 Speaker 1: Charlie is a nonprofit platform co created by several reproductive 175 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 1: rights and justice organizations, including I Need ana dot com, 176 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: Plan C, and the Miscarriage and Abortion Hotline. Cecile Richards, 177 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: the former president of Planned Parenthood and my former boss 178 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: when I work there, is the co founder. So the 179 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: bot was created in part because people just cannot trust 180 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: searching platforms like Google for accurate, not to mention, confidential 181 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: information about abortion. Nicole Cushman, who oversees Charlie's content, told 182 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: Mashable search experience online in particular is really myird in confusion. 183 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: People wind up going on this scavenger hunt trying to 184 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: piece together all the resources that make sense for them 185 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: to get the care that they need. The bot was 186 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: created in part because, as I was saying, people just 187 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: cannot trust searching platforms like Google for accurate and confidential 188 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: information about abortion. Nicole Cushman, who oversees Charlie's content, told 189 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: Mashable the search experience online in particular is really mired 190 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: in confusion. People wind up going on this scavenger hunt 191 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: trying to piece together all the resources that make sense 192 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: for them to get the care that they need. We 193 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: talked about this on a previous newscast, dipping into accountable 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: text research that found that Google is not deleting location 195 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: data related to abortion, even though they said that they would. 196 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: And Google also earned ten million dollars promoting fake abortion 197 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: clinics on their platforms. So this is a pretty big 198 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: deal because Google is also the biggest search engine in 199 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: the world. Eighty four percent of online searches happen on Google. 200 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: So if Google is not providing accurate or confidential inform 201 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: about abortion, it is a problem for the entire abortion landscape. 202 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: So I would be concerned about any platform where you're 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: entering sensitive medical information. So let's talk a bit about 204 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: Charlie's privacy policies. Nicole Cushman told Mashable that Charlie does 205 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: not request personal identifiable information like name or age. The 206 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: bot and its platforms do not use cookies and do 207 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: not share data with any third party, including the metatool pixel, 208 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: which can send private or sensitive user information to third parties. 209 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: Cushman also noted that every chat is routinely deleted from 210 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: Charlie's system and server, and data is removed upon closing 211 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the browser. She said that Charlie's deletion policy would mean 212 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: that records would likely no longer exist should law enforcement 213 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: attempt to obtain those records in the future. 214 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: Boy, that's really cool. That's reminiscent of how Signal does 215 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: things right, where they protect privacy by just not keeping 216 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: records of user transactions and content of what users have 217 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: said or done. 218 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it makes sense because us, both Signal and 219 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: Chartly are operating as nonprofits and so it's just like 220 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: a vastly different setup than a for profit platform like Google, 221 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: whose entire existence is to get your data and save 222 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: your data and use your data, right, And so it 223 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: makes sense that they're operating that way. Yeah, I think 224 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: this is cool. I'll keep folks updated as I hear 225 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: more about it. But again, it's I abortion advocates are 226 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: always out there doing the work to like get people 227 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: the access that they need. That is like one of 228 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: the only things that I put my faith and my 229 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: trust in these days. Is like advocates are going to 230 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: advocate or advocate or either or, And so I really 231 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: applaud them seeing the fact that we just don't have 232 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: the online infrastructure where folks can get connected to the 233 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: information that they need and trust that that information will 234 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: be handled sensitively and privately and confidentially and also just 235 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: be accurate. However, that like like Charlie shouldn't have to exist. 236 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: First of all, people should be able to get the 237 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: healthcare they need full stop, like people should be able 238 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: to get abortions when they need them full stop. However, 239 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: certainly platforms like Google should be in the business of 240 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: providing accurate information to people people that need it like 241 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: like that should be the reason why they exist. And 242 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: so while I applaud the fact that these advocates stepped 243 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: in and saw the need and created Charlie to sort 244 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: of like bridge the gap in services that exist, it 245 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: makes me sad because, like I said, everybody deserves accurate, 246 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: timely information to make choices for their own life and 247 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: their own health. It is absurd to me that that 248 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: Google is not providing that when they are the biggest 249 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: search engine in the world, and that advocates have to 250 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: step in and and and bridge that gap. 251 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I hope we see more examples 252 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: like this where some sort of app exists not to 253 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: harvest our data for the purposes of reselling it, but 254 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: just to provide a service and deletes all of the 255 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: user generated data afterwards because it's no longer useful, because 256 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 2: every additional service that follows that model is another piece 257 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: of evidence that the advertising driven model is not necessary 258 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: and that it's completely reasonable to have applications that respects 259 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: privacy and confidentiality, especially when. 260 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: It comes to something as sensitive as someone searching for 261 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: abortion information, like I don't want to search for abortion information, 262 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: and then a week later get a targeted advertisement that 263 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: seems to suggest that whatever platform I was doing that 264 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: on knows that I was still knows that I was 265 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: searching for that information. That's not just I think it's 266 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this comes up all the time on the show, 267 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: but I think that we need to fundamentally rethink the 268 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: relationship that we have with platforms that says that that 269 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: is the only way that we can have online experiences, 270 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: because there are other models that are better, that are 271 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: safer that just allow for people to get what they 272 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: actually need and that is accurate information. 273 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: Totally. 274 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break. 275 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 4: At our back. 276 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: Do you want to know what one of my favorite 277 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: songs is? 278 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, bridge you what's one of your favorite songs? 279 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: The song that goes men facing consequences for their bad behavior. 280 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: So a handful of men behaving badly faced a whisper 281 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: an inkling of consequences for their bad behavior, and the 282 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: Internet is melting down over it. So quick heads up 283 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: that this involves sexual abuse and sexual violence. Last week, comedian, 284 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: YouTuber and podcaster Russell Brand was accused of sexual and 285 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: emotional abuse and rape of women between the years twenty 286 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: six and twenty thirteen. The allegations are really troubling. A 287 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: girl who was just sixteen at a time, which is 288 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: the age of consent in the UK, said that during 289 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: her three month relationship with Brand, he would sign her 290 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: out of school to hang out with him, forced himself 291 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: on her, and once kissed her mother on the lips. Now, 292 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: Brand says that he absolutely refutes all of the allegations. 293 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: So if you don't know who Russell Brand is, he's 294 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: an actor and a comedian. He was a host on 295 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: BBC and here in the US. He was known for 296 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: roles in movies like Forgetting Sarah Marshall and Get Him 297 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: to the Greek, which, honestly, when you think about it, 298 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: that cast is like milakutis Jonah Hill, Russell Brand, that 299 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: crew is really down bad in the last few weeks, 300 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: like a lot going on with those three. So Russell 301 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: Brand was sort of known for having this kind of, 302 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, like cheeky public persona, like a cheeky, 303 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: mischievous bad boy. He would talk openly about his drug 304 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: use and his sexual history, but it seemed like maybe 305 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: he was curating that persona to mask behavior that was 306 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: actually like sexually abusive and violent. More recently, Brand has 307 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: kind of become a right wing adjacent I guess, like 308 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: alternative content creator. His big things are his podcasts Under 309 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: the Skin with Russell Brand and a YouTube channel that 310 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: has over six point six million subscribers. Now I have 311 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: not listened to his podcast, but I think what he's 312 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: trying to do is sort of like an alternative woo 313 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: woo kind of wellness thing. He has on folks like 314 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: journalist Michael Pollan talking about psychedelics or Deepak Chopra talking 315 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: about meditation, but a lot of that was really taken 316 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: to the extreme on his YouTube channel, which, if I 317 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: had to summarize his YouTube channel is that he often 318 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: gives a contrarian while operating under the premise that they 319 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: are lying because they don't want us to know the truth. 320 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: His videos often have titles like things that are like 321 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: so this is what they don't want us to know 322 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: all caps, or this is why they want us to 323 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: take the COVID vaccine, or this is why they want 324 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: a war in Ukraine. Interestingly, he rarely provides like direct 325 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: proof or like makes any kind of definitive direct statement 326 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: about what he say, Like, he doesn't really make like 327 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: hard claims. Generally he'll just ask a lot of pointed 328 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: leading questions. But the way that he says them, like 329 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: the tone is like all accusatory, right, like like why 330 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: do they want us taking that COVID vaccine? Like, and 331 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: I feel like anything anything sounds suss when you say it, 332 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: when you say it all accusatory. So he's kind of 333 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: like Joe Rogan if Joe Rogan had like long flowing 334 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: hair and wore like an open linen shirt. 335 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta be suspicious of that they you know, 336 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: just the liberal use of they peppered throughout. They want this, 337 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: they want that, like who are they? Please specify? 338 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: Well, so his unstated mostly unstated they is like the 339 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: mainstream media, Like his whole thing is all about how 340 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: the mainstream media isn't telling us the truth the mainstream 341 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: media is feeding us live, and that the mainstream media 342 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: like is against him because he is challenging what the 343 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: mainstream media says. It's it's like a pretty I mean, 344 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: I probably would have found this really compelling when I 345 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: was like nineteen. 346 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like in twenty twenty three, if I ask 347 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: who is they? And Russell Brand says the mainstream media, 348 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: that's not adding much, like it's just moving the question, 349 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: like who is the mainstream media? In twenty twenty three. 350 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm I'm one hundred percent and that I 351 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: stoned at a party probably said something very similar and 352 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: thought I sounded really smart. It's one of those things 353 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: where to a certain kind of person, making them feel 354 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: like they are like the truth seekers and they're getting 355 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: the real information that they the mainstream media won't tell you. 356 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: That's always going to work on a certain kind of 357 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: person and so I think that he's really courting that audience. 358 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: So since these allegations came out, Brand has been blocked 359 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: from monetization on YouTube. YouTube said in a statement that 360 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: it had suspended monetization on Brand's channel for violating its 361 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: creator responsibility policy. So he's not been kicked off the 362 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: platform or banned from the platform, much like the Fresh 363 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: and Fit podcast, he just can't earn money on those videos. 364 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: YouTube said if a creator's off platform behavior harms our users, employees, 365 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: or ecosystem, we take action to protect the community. Brand 366 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: is also on Rumble, which is kind of like a 367 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: right wing version of YouTube, and apparently members of Parliament 368 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: in the UK want to know if Rumble is going 369 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: to follow YouTube's lead and demonetize Brand's content. But Rumble's 370 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: whole thing is being quote anti cancel culture, so of 371 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: course they're not going to do that. Caroline Dinach, the 372 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: Conservative chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, wrote 373 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: to Rumble's CEO, saying we would like to know whether 374 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: Rumble intends to join YouTube and suspending mister Brand's ability 375 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: to earn money on the platform. The MP also asked 376 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: what Rumble was doing to ensure that content creators, don't 377 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: use their platform to undermine the welfare of victims of 378 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: inappropriate and potentially illegal behavior. Rumble replied on Twitter, calling 379 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: the letter disturbing and said that Parliament's demands were deeply 380 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: inappropriate and dangerous. The platform added that they were devoted 381 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: to an Internet where no one arbitrarily dictates which ideas 382 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: can or cannot be heard or which citizens may or 383 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: may not be entitled to a platform. Which interesting to 384 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: me about this is that even before where are these 385 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: allegations remade? Public Brand was able to weaponize his history 386 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: of stoking conspiracy theories and courting that audience of people 387 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: who really want to believe what he is saying to 388 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: shield himself from accountability from his own actions. In a 389 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: YouTube video, he suggested that the allegations are all a 390 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: campaign by the mainstream media to keep him from speaking 391 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: the truth. Here's what he had to say. 392 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 5: The relationships I had were absolutely, always consensual. I was 393 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 5: always transparent about that then almost too transparent, and I'm 394 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 5: being transparent about it now as well. And to see 395 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 5: that transparency metastasized into something criminal that I absolutely deny 396 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 5: makes me question is. 397 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: There another agenda at play? 398 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 5: Particularly when we've seen coordinated media attacks before with Joe Rogan, 399 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 5: when he dared to take a medicine that the mainstream 400 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 5: media didn't approve of, and we saw a spate of 401 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 5: headlines from media outlets across the world. 402 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: Using the same language. 403 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 5: I'm aware that you guys have been saying in the 404 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 5: comments for a while, watch out, Russell, They're coming for you. 405 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 5: You're getting too close to the truth. Russell Brand did 406 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 5: not kill himself. I know that a year ago there 407 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,959 Speaker 5: was a spate of articles Russell Brand's a conspiracy theorist, 408 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 5: Russell Brand's right wing. I'm aware of news media making 409 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 5: phone calls, sending letters to people I know, for ages 410 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 5: and ages. It's been clear to me, or at least 411 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 5: it feels to me like there's a serious and concerted 412 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 5: agenda to control these kind of spaces and these kind 413 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 5: of voices, and I mean my voice along with your voice. 414 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: Okay. So Brand put out this video even before the 415 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: article about the allegations was ever published, and all of 416 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: the comments on the video were about how his followers 417 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: and fans saying that he is innocent and that he 418 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: is obviously being framed by the mainstream media, which I 419 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: feel like if you have built up an audience who 420 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: is primed to believe anything that you say, even before 421 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: they know what it is you're being accused of, even 422 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: more if they have any information about that, it does 423 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: kind of suggest that you've curated an audience of people 424 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: who cannot think for themselves, not an audience of independent thinkers. 425 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: Like an independent thinker would be like, I'll wait until 426 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: these allegations are published, i will read the proof that 427 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: they say that they have, and I will make up 428 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: my own mind. An independent, a true independent thinker is 429 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: not just saying whatever you say, Russell Brand, we trust 430 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: you will just take your word for it with no 431 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: other information. And here's the thing, when you actually look 432 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: at what these women are saying, Like they have copies 433 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: of text messages from Brand wherein they discuss his abusive behavior. 434 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 1: One woman texted him. When a girl says no, it 435 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: means no, and then Brand replies saying very sorry. You know, 436 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: there are records of another woman seeking medical treatment at 437 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: a rape crisis center after a Brand assaulted her. So 438 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious, like how Brand is thinking that they fabricated 439 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: these records from like fifteen years ago. 440 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it raises good questions about who's included in they 441 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: it kind of seems like it maybe it's just like 442 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: the women that he assaulted. 443 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was say. It's like, even if 444 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: even if he believes this is some sort of a 445 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: like coordinated campaign to like to like stop this podcaster 446 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: and YouTuber. But even if that, even if that was 447 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: what was going on, if somebody wanted to have a 448 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: coordinated campaign against me, they would not be able to 449 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: produce records that showed that somebody got medical treatment after 450 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: they after I attacked them, because that doesn't exist. They 451 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: would not be able to produce text messages where I 452 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: said very sorry when someone said that I violated their consent, 453 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: because that doesn't that's not out there. And so yeah, 454 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: just publishing accounts of what you did is not a 455 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: coordinated campaign. That's just like reporting about your own actions, Like, yeah, 456 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to. It's interesting to me how he's like, oh, 457 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: this is just a campaign against me because I'm getting 458 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: too close to the truth. It's like, well, they wouldn't 459 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: be able to publish this shit if you hadn't done it, 460 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: so you know, in what way? In what way are 461 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: they like he's not saying that these are fabricated. 462 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, like what truth? And again, who is they name 463 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: some names? 464 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: Well, you know who has named some names. That is 465 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: some of the folks who are supporting Brand at this time, 466 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: folks like Alex Jones. Alex Jones says, it's the globalists. 467 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: Oh see, I knew they were right around the corner. 468 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: I didn't want to bring it up, but I knew 469 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: the globalists was secretly the they. 470 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: When someone says they like that all accusatory, we all 471 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: know who they're talking about. It's like barely even a 472 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: dog whistle. So Alex Jones said. And now because Brand 473 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: comes out against big Pharma, he comes out against the globalists, 474 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: he comes out against the new world order, and suddenly 475 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: these allegations are happening to him. Also a woman had 476 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: to go to get medical care. I love that this 477 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: is like allegations are happening to him a lot of 478 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: questions about how Alex Jones thinks allegations work, like they 479 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: don't justlike happen to people. 480 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: So Alex Jones, there's just a story about how he 481 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 2: spent like it was like nine hundred thousand dollars in 482 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: a month of just like living expenses or something. I 483 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 2: could be wrong about that about but it was some 484 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: like ridiculous number and all the while like he has 485 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: paid zero dollars to the families of the Sandy Hook 486 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: families to whom he owes like billions of dollars. 487 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely who you want on your side when 488 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: you are facing public allegations of wrongdoing. So also in 489 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: Russell Brand's corner Elon Musk. Elon Musk tweeted when Russell 490 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: Brand said that he was being attacked because he promotes 491 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: alternative views. Elon said, of course they all caps don't 492 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: like competition. Also, don't forget Elon Musk himself was accused 493 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: of exposing himself to a flight attendant, So you know, 494 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: birds of a feather, like if you nobody nobody's got 495 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: the back of a sexual abuser, like a man who 496 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: is also a sexual abuser. Also, we've got Tucker Carlson 497 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: in the mix, who tweeted criticized the drug companies, question 498 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: the war in Ukraine, and you can be pretty sure 499 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: this is gonna happen. Elon must chimes in, Sure, seems 500 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: that way, and then Andrew Tate chimes in. 501 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: With, yep, what a collection of fuckos. 502 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: Also speaking of Andrew Tate in More Men Facing a 503 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: Whisper of Consequences. News we did an episode a while 504 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: back about Andrew Tate's app, The Real World and how 505 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: it's basically a pyramid scheme. Well, now that app has 506 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: been taken off of the Google Play Store because it's 507 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: a pyramid scheme, one that prays on young men and boys. 508 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: So Andrew tates app used to be called Hustler's University, 509 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: and it's a billed as quote, a global community of 510 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: like minded individuals striving to acquire an abundance of wealth. 511 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Tell me that that does not sound like every MLM 512 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: pyramid scheme. That a girly from your high school like 513 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: dms you about on Facebook being like hey Gurley, like 514 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: you should have you ever thought about having your own business? 515 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: I think you would really slayh at it girl. 516 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: Yo. You know what else it sounds like it sounds 517 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: like the they that they're always talking about a global 518 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: community of like minded individuals striving to acquire an abundance 519 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: of wealth. 520 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god. With Andrew Tate's group, they the whole 521 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: time Russell Brand the call It's coming from inside the house. 522 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: The they is coming from inside the house. 523 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is from Vice. The app promise is 524 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: to give subscribers expert tuition and business and online entrepreneurship 525 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: with video lessons and mentorship from a supposed multi millionaire 526 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: experts on topics like copywriting, e commerce, crypto, and stocks. 527 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: Targeting young people. In its marketing and design, the platform 528 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: claims that for a monthly some scription fee might guess 529 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: how much the subscription fee is a month? Can you guess? 530 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: I would say nine? 531 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: Oh, my god, it's forty nine dollars and ninety nine 532 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: cent per month. My god. 533 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 534 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: So for that price, recruits can earn over ten k 535 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: per month quickly and escape the matrix, which is Andrew 536 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: Tate's disparaging term for mainstream society and avoid an otherwise 537 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: inevitable future of being a brokeye. The system slash Matrix 538 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: wants you to remain poor, week alone, and complacent, says 539 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: one website promoting the real world. Understand that in about 540 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: five to ten years time, you will either be rich 541 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: unlimited money with unlimited options, or you'll be broke slaving 542 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: away for social credits. Do you want to escape or not? Wow? 543 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: I can actually really see how that like over the 544 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: top language could be enticing for especially a young person, 545 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: a young person who spends a lot of their time 546 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: like online playing video games. I can see how that 547 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: would be enticing. 548 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so. I mean they're really trafficking on 549 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 2: like the Matrix ideology, which is kind of funny because 550 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: The Matrix was written by a pair of trans women. 551 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lily Wachowski deserves much better than this. 552 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty sure they would be in the they 553 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: according to these people, but they've just like wholesale adopted 554 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 2: their ideology. But also, and more importantly, I just want 555 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: to go back to like their topics which include copywriting, 556 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: e commerce, crypto, and stocks like those are a pretty 557 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: disparate set of activities. Like are they going to earn 558 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 2: over ten k per month through copywriting? Like what are 559 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: they copywriting for? 560 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: As a former copywriter, I can tell you they probably 561 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: won't be earning ten km through copywriting. We're actually doing 562 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: an episode I think this coming Tuesday with an extremism 563 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: researcher from Media Matters, all about Andrew Tait. And one 564 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: of the questions I had for this researcher is, like, 565 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: when they're offering these pyramid scheme, scammy, you know, classes 566 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: and stuff. There is always such a wide net of offerings. 567 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: It will be like how to pick up chicks, and 568 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: also real estate and also crypto and it's like why 569 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: do they like, like, how are they related to each other? 570 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: How does how is one Cherson going like an expert 571 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: in all of these things, going to teach me about 572 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: all of these things like and basically he said that 573 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: it's all related to this concept of grind mentality where 574 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: they choose all of these buckets or topics that young 575 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: men traditionally might associate with, you know, being on their 576 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: grind and hustling and making money. E commerce and copywriting 577 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: is a new one for me, Like, I don't know 578 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: that I associate that with like the hustle, but crypto stocks, 579 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: real estate, these things that you associate with, like masculinity, 580 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: question mark. I guess those are the things that these 581 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: scammers are always saying that they can like teach you 582 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: to be rich through. 583 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 2: Using yeah, you know, whatever they got to do to 584 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: be part of that global community of like minded individuals 585 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: striving to acquire an abundance of wealth aka them them 586 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: a more. 587 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 588 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I find this so deeply, 589 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: deeply messed up, among a lot of reasons why I 590 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: find it so messed up, is that the platform is 591 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: very clearly aimed at children. On the Google Play Store, 592 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: the platform is labeled as being suitable for people age 593 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: four end up, which like, what is a fucking four 594 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: year old take in classes in crypto trading and stocks for? 595 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: But they actually claim that their youngest student is age six. 596 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: So they have this six year old who says that 597 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: he is a student of Hustler's University. He wants to 598 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: be a boxer just like Andrew Tait when he grows up, 599 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: and he takes fitness classes supposedly through the Andrew Tates 600 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: Real World app. And so this is very much geared 601 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: toward very young people, and it's clear in the way 602 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: that it kind of gamifies using the app and mimics 603 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: video gameplay in some of the promotional language about the 604 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: real world. It prompts young men and boys to shock 605 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: their families by leveling up in real life instead of 606 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: just leveling up in video games. So importantly, like most 607 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: MLMs and pyramid schemes, the thing is not just getting 608 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: doopies to pay for whatever the thing is, like leggings or, 609 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: in this case, you know, scammy classes about nothing. The 610 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: thing is a actually convincing other dubies to get duped 611 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: into doing it too. Through the Real World's Affiliate Marketing Program, 612 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: members are required to aggressively promote Tate and his site 613 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: by flooding websites like TikTok, Instagram, reels, and YouTube with 614 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: repurposed Andrew Tate content along with distinctive sign up links attached, 615 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: getting forty eight percent of sales commission for every new 616 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: recruit to the site that joined through their link. Now, 617 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: I think that this probably served double duty for Andrew 618 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: Tate because he's banned from most social media platforms. He 619 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: was banned from Facebook and Twitter and YouTube, and TikTok 620 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: elon Musk, of course brought him back on their besties. 621 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: But this affiliate marketing program, I believe, not only makes 622 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: him more money through getting more dubies to sign up 623 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: for his scam, but also allows him to get around 624 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: being banned from these platforms because he is individually banned, 625 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: but his content is not banned. If people are just 626 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: spamming TikTok with Andrew tait memes and videos and repurpose content. 627 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: I think it's a way for him to get around 628 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: being banned, like his content is all over social media, 629 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: despite the fact that he himself is banned. 630 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: He sucks, He sucks. 631 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: He is so gross. 632 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: So don't under investigation for like being a sex trafficker, Like, 633 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: what's the status of that? 634 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: He sure is? She sure is? He is currently under 635 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: investigation for trafficking. People like Tucker Carlson love to talk 636 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: about trafficking and making that there like cause du jore. 637 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: But then is fine to publicly associate with somebody who 638 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: is under literal investigation for trafficking. Make it make sense? 639 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: The math is not mathing. 640 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: It's like one of the most harmful things in our 641 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 2: society that these toxic assholes have somehow like claimed the 642 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: mantle of masculinity. 643 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: I almost have a hard time, like I don't even 644 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: it's not even really cathartic to dunk on him, because 645 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: because he's so toxic and harmful, and I think he's 646 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: worse because he targets children, like very young kids six 647 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: years old, seven years old. I saw a video where 648 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: like school children, elementary school children were being asked like, oh, 649 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: what do you look for in a girl? And they 650 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: were like, oh, got to make sure she's not a 651 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: gold digger. And they're little kids, And so I think 652 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: the fact that Andrew TT is really targeting our youth, 653 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: and I think it's you know, I think with Andrew 654 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: T hat what's so upsetting is that I think they 655 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: that he is poisoning an entire generation of very young 656 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: boys before they've even had a chance to be out 657 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: in the world, before they even have been out to 658 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: experience the world, and putting this insidiary garbage in their heads, 659 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: making them really align with this like incredibly harmful worldview. 660 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,919 Speaker 1: And I hope, I deeply hope that these kids can 661 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: grow up to unlearn that that it does not, but 662 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: that it doesn't like set them up for a bad 663 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: course for life before they even have really gotten a 664 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,959 Speaker 1: chance to be out in the world. And the fact 665 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: that he is so brazenly getting rich off of that, like, 666 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: I think it's yeah, I think he is harming kids 667 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: at making millions, harming kids, harming women and making millions 668 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: from it. And the fact that he is lauded as 669 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: some kind of a shrewd businessman for doing so really 670 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 1: just it's upsetting. 671 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. 672 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: So of course Google did not just decide one morning 673 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: to like wake up and do the right thing and 674 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: delete this app from their app store. They were pressured 675 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: by campaigns. Nathan Pope, a thirty four year old Australian, 676 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: launched an online petition in July calling for app stores 677 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: like Google Play and the App Store, as well as 678 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: companies that process online subscription payments to the real world, 679 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: to stop posting the app. So he was successful at 680 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: getting Google's Google Play Store to pull it, but as 681 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: far as I know as of recording this, the app 682 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: is still available on Apple's App Store. 683 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: Really yeah, wow, that's really something. I'm surprised that Google 684 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: would take that action and Apple would not. I generally 685 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: think of Apple as like a trusted entity, and it's 686 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 2: surprising that they would allow this toxic garbage to continue 687 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 2: on their platform. 688 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we will keep you posted if any action 689 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: is taken. I think that Andrew Tate should not be 690 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: able to make money to make millions from targeting kids 691 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: in this way. 692 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. 693 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: Okay, So, speaking of trafficking, we did an episode all 694 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: about the sex trafficking hero fantasy movie Sound of Freedom. 695 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 1: The film depicts a fictionalized account of this guy named 696 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: Tim Ballard, formerly of Operations Underground Railroad, which is an 697 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: anti trafficking organization that promotes the idea that anti trafficking 698 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: work looks like a hero like going into an underground 699 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: trafficking ring, allah taken and saving the day. Anti trafficking 700 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: experts have been cleared that these depictions promote harmful myths 701 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: about trafficking that could actually make things worse for survivors. 702 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: So right after our episode about Sound of Freedom went live, 703 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: Operation Underground Railroad announced that Tim Ballard was no longer 704 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: part of the organization, and I was sort of like, 705 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,439 Speaker 1: I wonder what the story is there? Like that seems weird, 706 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: and now we know why. According to a Vice investigation, 707 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: tim Ballard invited women to act as his wife on 708 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: undercover overseas missions ostensibly aimed at rescuing victims of sex trafficking. 709 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: He would then allegedly coerce those women into sharing a 710 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: bed with him or showering with him, claiming that it 711 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: was necessary to fool sex traffickers. 712 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, that's the only way that they'll be fooled. 713 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: He is said to have sent at least one woman 714 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: a photo of himself in its underwear with fake tattoos, 715 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: and have asked another how far she was willing to 716 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: go to save children. So the total number of women 717 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: involved in this is believed to be higher than seven, 718 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: as that would only account for employees, not contractors or 719 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: volunteers of the organization. So yeah, he was just setting 720 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: up these overseas stings and then convincing these women to 721 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: go along with these inappropriate actions under the guys that 722 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: they needed to do that to save the kids. It's 723 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: so predatory. Ballard of course denies these charges. So this 724 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: is kind of a callback to a recent episode that 725 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: we did about Ashton Kutcher's support for convicted rapist Danny Masterson. 726 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: Given Ashton's work starting the organization Thorn, which is a 727 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: big anti sex trafficking organization that works with all of 728 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: the major social media platforms. That episode was really focused 729 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: on the technology that Thorn produces, but on the Patreon 730 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: I got into my actual take, which is that people 731 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: are able to use trafficking work to boost their own 732 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: profile at the ex event of marginalized people and actual 733 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: trafficking survivors, I think that Ashton Cutcher used trafficking and 734 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 1: technology to sort of go from like a stoner sitcom 735 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: actor to being like a serious philanthropist and like tech guy. 736 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: And I think he did that because he knew it 737 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: would not be questioned. Because when somebody says they're working 738 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: to stop trafficking or like trying to curb sex trafficking, 739 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: it just gives them this automatic high ground that people like. 740 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: It's like, if you question that, the obvious response is like, oh, 741 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: what do you like pro sex trafficking? And nobody, everybody 742 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: obviously hates sex trafficking, So when somebody does that work, 743 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: it kind of makes it seem like they're above reproach. 744 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: And I believe that's what's going on with Ashton Cutcher, 745 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: and I believe that's what's going on with Tim Ballord. 746 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: So my anti Ashton Cutcher sentiments have been brewing for 747 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: like over a decade, So please check out the Patreon 748 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: if you want to know more. I deeply think that 749 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: the focus on trafficking means that people will be so 750 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: willing to associate sexual violence with like a stranger, bad 751 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: guy trafficker who's going to grab you in a parking lot, 752 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: that they might not be so willing to see their 753 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: friend who is a sexual abuser as a threat, right, 754 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: Like if you were only if sexual violence begins and 755 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: ends with bad guy traffickers, your friend who is seems 756 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: like a really nice guy to you, you're not going 757 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: to be that willing to see them as the threat 758 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: that they are. And in the case of Tim Ballard, 759 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: I think that doing anti trafficking work was actually a 760 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: way to distract from his own bad behavior. You know. 761 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: It's like sometimes they say an accusation is actually a confession. 762 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think your Patreon episode about that is really 763 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 2: insightful and it really makes me think about this Tim 764 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 2: Ballard and how much he was just like engaging in 765 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: this fantasy, this like anti trafficking fantasy that really had 766 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 2: no connection to actually protecting real people from trafficking, but 767 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: was like cosplay almost. 768 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly what I think was going on. Part 769 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: of Vice's reporting found that the organization was actually relying 770 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: on psychics to set up bumbling and ineffective missions to 771 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: save traffic children that they believe were being held on 772 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: the border of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, and so 773 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,879 Speaker 1: all of their information and their intel about where this 774 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: child was being held came from psychics. That is like 775 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: something out of a fantasy movie. I think that this 776 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: is somebody who was cause playing what he imagined like 777 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: a big bad white guy busting into like a foreign 778 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: country to like save kids. I think that he was 779 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: just setting up an entire machination to you go along 780 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: with this fantasy version of himself. And then I bet 781 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: seeing that version of himself depicted in the movie Sound 782 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:13,760 Speaker 1: of Freedom, depicted by Tim Cavizelli, who previously was Jesus 783 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: Christ in the movie Passion of the Christ, Like, I 784 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,720 Speaker 1: just think that these people do not have a clear 785 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: sense of reality. I think that you're exactly right that 786 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: they are setting up these fantasy versions of this, like 787 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: fantasy world where trafficking works like a movie. But in reality, 788 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: this is not a movie, and actual victims and survivors 789 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: are being hurt. When you publicly lead people to believe 790 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: that this is how trafficking works, that it's like something 791 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: out of a movie, because that's not how it works. 792 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: Nine times out of ten, people are being groomed into 793 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 1: trafficking by somebody that they know, somebody that they trust. 794 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: It's not somebody snatching them or you know, a psychic 795 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: leading them to the whereabouts of like a child being 796 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: held in a dungeon somewhere, and promoting this idea just 797 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: makes everybody more vulnerable because it it makes us not 798 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,280 Speaker 1: understand the actual threat and the actual dangers totally. 799 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 2: But you know they're out there. They are out there. 800 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think from doing this episode, I feel like 801 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,919 Speaker 1: the real they who is the threat is like Tim 802 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: Ballard Airs, youw Tate Russell Brand, So let's watch out 803 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: with them, shall we? 804 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,479 Speaker 2: Yeah? You're absolutely right. Yeah, the real they is these 805 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 2: misogynist assholes who are engaging in this like cosplay, whipping 806 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,839 Speaker 2: up a frenzy about fictional harms while they themselves are 807 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,879 Speaker 2: enacting the actual harms. 808 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: Could not agree more. Mike, thanks so much for going 809 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: to these stories with me. 810 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: Bridgett, thanks for having me. It was so good talking 811 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 2: with you. I'll see you on the internet. I'll see 812 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 2: you on the Internet. 813 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check 814 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 1: out our merch store at tangoty dot com slash store. 815 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 816 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at 817 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts 818 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are 819 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,919 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Tood. 820 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by 821 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison 822 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our 823 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tood. If you want 824 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. 825 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 826 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.