1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Y'all, they are back, and we are so fortunate. Renowned 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: criminologist doctor Catherine Ramslin and executive producer Tracy Olmen are 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: here tonight and they've got big news that I am 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: so excited to share with all of y'all. Doctor Ramslin, welcome, welcome, 5 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: and will you tell us what's happening. 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: Well, it's great to be back here. The last time 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: we were here, we had Queen Henley with us as well. 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: We did a couple with him and that was based 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: on a book that we had written about his case. 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: And now we have the documentary version of it, a 11 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: two hour documentary on the ID Network on August seventeenth, 12 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: Sunday night, so nine to eleven East Time, and we're 13 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: hoping that people will really respond to that. There there's 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: more in it than was in the book because there 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: are people interviewed for the documentary that we're not part 16 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: of the book, So there is yet more really to 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. 18 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: It's it's quite a case and it's disturbing, shocking, but 19 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: so relevant for today. 20 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: When I first learned about it, I got real excited. 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: I figured there would be some people that weren't in 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: the book. But anytime you can watch the person talk 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: and that includes you, doctor, you know, you get to me. 24 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: I get so much more from it, like I can 25 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, hear the way you you know, present it 26 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: and you know that kind of thing. You know what 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: I'm talking about it I. 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: Do, and you know, obviously I'm interviewed on it. But 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: also we have some excerpts from the many hours of 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: taping that I did when I was talking to Wayne, 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: So you have footage from the nineteen seventies when all 32 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: this happened. You have Wayne talking on tape to me, 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: you have me talking about the case, you have other 34 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: experts talking about the case. So it really is a 35 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: different experience than reading the book, though it's the same story. 36 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: And Tracy, I mean, obviously you and doctor Ramslt are 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: not strangers to TV, and you have even been the 38 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: executive producer own a documentary, so this is familiar ground 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: for you, right right. 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: It was a pleasure to make this, and you know, 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: Catherine and I partnered on the book, but we also 42 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: worked very much hand in hand on the documentary because 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: she was so essential to giving context to this story. 44 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: Of course, you know the first thing I thought about was, man, 45 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: that might be a little difficult to take this masterpiece 46 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: that y'all have done and then put it in live form. 47 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: But then I thought, that's what doctor Ramslin does all 48 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: the time. She takes it on. That's what you do 49 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: all the time. You take a textbook and you bring 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: it to life. And you know, Tracy the same for 51 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: you. You take material, you take information, and you put it 52 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: in film form. So I am so excited August seventeenth, 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: I cannot wait. But I have this question now, doctor Ramslin, 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: were there components that you found difficult to take a 55 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: chapter and then flip it into like a SoundBite. Was 56 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: there anything that was a challenge for you. 57 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: I think it was that I knew we're going to 58 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: take a really large story and condense it down to 59 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: two hours, so right off the bat, that's challenging. And 60 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: then of course you want to figure out what is 61 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: really essential to get across in this story and who 62 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: else are they going to be using to peace in. 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: So for me, it was simply telling the story as 64 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: I know it, you know, and reaching back to the 65 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies when the Dean Coral story happened, when these 66 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: murders happened, and to be able to talk about it 67 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: in the clinical way that I typically have. Wild viewers 68 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: are watching these really horrendous images, because you do get 69 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: footage of them digging up some of the bodies and 70 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: going into Dean Coral's house and seeing what the torture 71 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley as a 72 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: seventeen year old kid, the skinny guy talking to weeping 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: on the phone as he's talking to his mother. So 74 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: I think trying to get all that into a two 75 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: hour show was challenging, but it worked well. I think 76 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 2: I watched it a couple of times and I really 77 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: enjoy the sort of way it's been packaged. 78 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: Well, you know, Tracy, I'm Southern, so I love a 79 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: good story, and it's hard for me to condense anything. 80 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: I mean. 81 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: And somebody says, do you want ice cream? I don't 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: want to just say yes or no. I want to 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: tell them all the reason's. Like, you know, when I 84 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: was a child, I loved you know what I mean. 85 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: So when I think of this book, there is a 86 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: global picture that even when I was reading it, I thought, man, 87 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: there is so much more that they're going to be 88 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: able to connect from that book. It's not just Dean Coral. 89 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: It's not There's a lot more if you look at 90 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: crime in general, if you look at the way crime 91 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: is committed, and I'm one of those people. If you 92 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: take a theft or you take a murder, you can 93 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: dissect both and get to the same motive. 94 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, when we wrote the book together, 95 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: Katherine really took the lead. My strength was that I 96 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: had known Wayne for a few years before we connected Catherine, 97 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: and then I was very much into the sex trafficking 98 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: aspect of this story and uncovering that. So when we 99 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: finally had to sit down with a team that included 100 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: members of Dick Wolf Entertainment and ITV America, they hired 101 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: in a what's called a showrunner, somebody who was going 102 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: to give a look and feel to this story. His 103 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 3: name was Alexis Robi, and then they also had a producer, 104 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: Zoe Vach, and all of us did about five different 105 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: jobs as we went through what we could possibly do 106 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 3: with a small budget, a relatively small budget, and you know, 107 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 3: in the end, it was pretty incredible the amount of 108 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 3: archive that we had to show what literally happened. And 109 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: then we put in the recordings of Wayne. We had 110 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: a way of scrubbing through those by having them artificially 111 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: intelligenced and transcribed that way, and once we were looking 112 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: through those things, we were able to discern, Okay, this 113 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: is going to be relevant to what we're talking about here. 114 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: This is how we're going to show the grooming that 115 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: went on. And once that cut was put together, then 116 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: we had doctor Ramsland come back in and she was 117 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: basically on a set where we kind of old her 118 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: talking with Elma Wayne Henley. But there's a little bit 119 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 3: of fakery that goes on that way. And once you 120 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: have the story put together with all those different components, 121 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: it really brings you back into the early nineteen seventies 122 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: in Houston and in America, and it really gives the 123 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: context of we were a country that we were changed 124 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 3: by these murders, and we didn't really know why or 125 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: how until you know, we really you know, doctor Ramslin 126 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: and I dug into this, and I think now it's 127 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: much more obvious what those changes ended up being. 128 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's the global picture that interests me 129 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: so much, because it's not just murder like serial killer, absolutely, 130 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: but when you're talking about the grooming and the sex trafficking. 131 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: Those are elements that a lot of people do not 132 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: realize are so ingrained in some of these cases. 133 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: And that's partly the takeaway from the book and the 134 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: documentary is to recognize that this isn't something deep in 135 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: the past, you know, fifty years ago. This is about 136 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: kids today just as much and even more so, because 137 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: they're more vulnerable than they were back in the seventies. 138 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: And it's not just vulnerable to predators looking for prey. 139 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: These are predators are looking for partners. They're looking to 140 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: groom kids to help them. That's essentially what we're talking 141 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: about is an adult Dean Coral, picked two adolescent boys 142 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them 143 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: and more or less trapping them by using things that 144 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: matter to them until they were in too deep to 145 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: get out. And this is the thing that kids face today. 146 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: There are all kinds of sophistications, predators on the internet 147 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: looking for vulnerable kids to bring into the criminal enterprise 148 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: they have, and we're seeing that right now with all 149 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: the Epstein stuff, that kids can be recruited to recruit 150 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: other kids and on it goes. It's pretty horrifying, and 151 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: we want people to understand what are the signals and 152 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 2: what should they be doing when kids say they need help? 153 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: And doctor, that's something you have said, and I'm quoting here, 154 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: there were hard lessons to learn to help us navigate 155 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: today's world. That's what you're talking about, Yes, very much. 156 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: You know there's a meme out there that it says 157 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: something to the fact that it used to be you 158 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: had to protect your child from one person. Well, now 159 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: the whole world has access to your child. 160 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: And even some of their own associates. Other kids might 161 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: be on something sure, finding ways to exploit their trust. 162 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: So, Tracy, I think the ultimate goal that y'all are 163 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: trying to do with this documentary would be what how 164 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: would you condense it? 165 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: I think that it is very relevant for doctor Ramsland 166 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: to mention Jeffrey Epstein in this instance because we have 167 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: this staring us in the face right now as a 168 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: societal issue, and the modus operendi is the same across 169 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 3: the board. When you talk about John wayn Gacy, when 170 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: you talk about Dean Coral, Jeffrey Epstein learned ways of 171 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: operating that are directly related to these men. And when 172 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: you think about them operating, They cannot operate successfully without 173 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: others empowering them, other people empower clearing the way so 174 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: that they don't get arrested, so that they do have 175 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: access to other victims as well as other people that 176 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: will be paying for their services. And so, you know, 177 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: doctor Ramsland and I were discussing earlier, we don't know 178 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: half as much as we should about the Jeffrey Epstein 179 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: case because with everything else being comparable to these other cases, 180 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: is there any form of pornography that surrounds this case? 181 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: Are there any murders that surround this case? These are 182 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: questions that have not yet been answered. They haven't been asked, really, 183 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: And so when you have a modus operendi that's copied 184 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 3: over and over again, what elements have people copied? And 185 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: you know, we're just trying to give an example of 186 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 3: what's possible as part of this story. 187 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: And you know, doctor Trycy brings up a great point. 188 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: The young man that just murdered the mom and dad 189 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: that we're walking with the two little girls in the 190 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: state park. One of the first things I said is 191 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: he will have pornography on all of his devices. Child 192 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: pornography specifically I think the children were his target. I 193 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: think those parents probably thought were together, we're in a 194 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: state park. We could not be safer. 195 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: That, yeah, And I don't want to make it seem 196 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: as if every place in the world is dangerous. But 197 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: on the other hand, predators look specifically for places that 198 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe. 199 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: He was a teacher, He was an ordinary looking guy 200 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: aside from the strange hair, but he was an ordinary 201 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: looking guy. And so they really want people to be 202 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: off guard, to not see them coming, and they play 203 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: a long game. Quite often, they will grew a whole neighborhood, 204 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: whole town, a whole city to believe certain things about 205 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: them so that they can operate under the radar. And 206 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: I think, you know, we don't know that much yet 207 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: about his motivation and background. I know some things, but 208 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: I think as it's going to come out, you know, 209 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: you're probably right that he was certainly out there targeting 210 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: possibly those kids. But yeah, he was a dangerous individual 211 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: who found a seemingly safe place to operate. 212 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: Tracy, when you're looking at the documentary and y'all have 213 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: added people that are not in the book and the interviews, 214 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: so you're going to have information that's maybe new to y'all. 215 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: How did y'all craft that if it was something that 216 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: y'all were not privy to before. 217 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: I think the thing we wanted to do was to 218 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: get everyone back into Houston in the early nineteen seventies. 219 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: We did not want to say, Okay, we've got all 220 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: of this noise going on, with fifty years having passed 221 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: from this case, we want to bring you back into 222 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: Elma Wayne Henley's world. And so one of his best 223 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: friends at the time, Angela Michaels, she, you know, was 224 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: able to talk about what a good person this was. 225 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 3: We were able to talk about them going to concerts, 226 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: what an average individual this person was, and so to 227 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: think about Emmayne Henley before all this becomes publicized, you 228 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: start to see a teenager who really would never have 229 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: gone in this direction if you weren't guided there, if 230 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: you weren't manipulated and threatened. We talked with one of 231 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: his fellow cub Scouts, Mark Nelson, and you just get 232 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: this mundane picture of a community that comes to gather 233 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: at the Henley household, and these cub Scouts meet up 234 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: and they're talking about all sorts of activities, and the 235 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 3: Henley parents, you know, Mary and Elmer sr Are you know, 236 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: guiding these meetings and all the kids respect them, and 237 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: there is no sign of anything untoward until you see 238 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: that family start to break down. You start to see 239 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: the insertion of Dean Coral and his methods of grooming, 240 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 3: and everything takes a sharp right turn in the wrong direction. 241 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: And as a teenager, Elma Wayne Henley doesn't have the 242 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: ability to stop that. He's responding to all sorts of insecurities, 243 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: all sorts of lack of intelligence that you might have 244 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: as an adult, and for so long we've kind of 245 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: superimposed on him. Well he should have known. Will you 246 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: try being a young team and understanding all of these 247 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: kind of different ways, you know, somebody like dancorl could 248 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: manipulate you. It's very difficult even as adults to grasp. 249 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: I think it's important to also point out about the documentary. 250 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 2: It is balanced. We have relatives of victims talking on it, 251 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: we have law enforcement discussing it. We have people who 252 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: just don't think that Wayne was a good guy, and 253 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: we have people who do. So you're really getting a 254 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: balanced picture of the response to the crimes and the 255 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: fact that Wayne is in this odd position of being 256 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: both a victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult 257 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: to try to find the language to talk about someone 258 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: like that. 259 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: Sure, and here's the deal. When he's been on Zone 260 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: seven twice, he has stated very clearly he wants to 261 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: help at least one child. That's his whole purpose for 262 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: working with the two of you and now being a 263 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: part of the documentary. How do you think this is 264 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: going to maybe affect him? Like, I know you've talked 265 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: to him. I mean, is he excited about it? 266 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? 267 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: I think I think he feels that it was worthwhile. 268 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: There was a long process and with ups and downs, 269 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: as documentary making can be, but I think he is 270 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: happy to have finally have had the opportunity to tell 271 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: his story fully without being, you know, having it distorted 272 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 2: in some manner as has happened to him before, and 273 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: that this could potentially reach not just kids who could 274 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: be in trouble, but counselors and teachers and parents who 275 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: deal with kids who need to under stand how important 276 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: it is to listen because the essence of his story 277 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: is that he did try to tell somebody. He tried 278 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: to tell several people adults, he tried to get away 279 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: several times. This is something that's not well known about him, 280 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: but what happened is people thought he was crazy or 281 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his 282 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: cry for help. And he wants people to understand you 283 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: have to listen, no matter what it sounds like, you 284 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: have to at least try to help these kids. And 285 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: I think if he believes that this will in fact 286 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: achieve that goal. 287 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: And Tracy, you know, I have watched court go from 288 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: just some people like the prosecution and the defense standing 289 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: and talking to almost more theatrical. They have you know, 290 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: video Now they have all kinds of charts and graphs 291 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: that can move and you can show things and real time. Tracy, 292 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: to me, when I think of what this documentary could 293 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: do for Wayne, especially with Catherine talking to him, is 294 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: how they're going to make it look correct, correct that 295 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: people are going to have the opportunity to hear him 296 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think they could in 297 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the book. But this will give them an opportunity to say, 298 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, he was a victim, then he became 299 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: a perpetrator. Now he's trying to help so again for you, 300 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: being a documentary executive producer, that is part of the 301 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: story that I would want to really bring to light. 302 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 3: It was such a privilege to be able to match 303 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: up story points with what doctor Ramslan and Wayne Henley 304 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: were discussing. But I must admit I was in charge 305 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: of scripting the second episode and the very exciting part 306 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 3: of that for me was the very last act where 307 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: we start to ask our participants, both for and against 308 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 3: Wayne Henley, now that you know that this had to 309 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: do with sexual trafficking, where there was pornography generated of 310 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: the victims, how do you feel about that? And to 311 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 3: have one of the victims' family members say, look, somebody 312 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 3: had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those 313 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: photographs to a publisher, somebody had to put together the 314 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: magazine and then distribute it. That for me, as people 315 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: are reflecting the thoughts of that insult to injury for 316 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: the victims, that was a very exciting part of putting 317 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 3: that together. To really bring those voices to a symphony 318 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: that describes sex trafficking and what really happened in this case, 319 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: and that has never been done before. 320 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: Unbelievable. And you know, doctor you and Tracy were so 321 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: gracious to allow me to talk to him with y'all twice, 322 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: and I know how that affected me. I mean for 323 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: days and days, I just kept replaying some things that 324 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: he said and knowing the background and knowing the crimes. 325 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: I can't imagine for you this is in some way 326 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: it's a testament to your career, but it's also again 327 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: using your genius to help other people so that lay people, teachers, parents, counselors, 328 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: football coaches can get this information. 329 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: That's what I'm hoping for, and I will say I 330 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: didn't actually expect it was going to move in this 331 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: direction when I had one of the original notions of 332 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: out Henley being a bad kid who sold his friends 333 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: for money to know this predator, because that was the 334 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: original notion that was passed around in the original true 335 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: crime books about this. But I wanted to talk with 336 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: him because he seemed in one brief interview about his artwork, 337 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: he seemed intelligent and self reflective, and I thought, well, 338 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: maybe maybe I have something to learn. And so I'm 339 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: hoping that is the same effect on other people who've 340 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: already made up their minds based on outdated information and 341 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: even incorrect information. I hope that's the same experience they 342 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: will have when they listen to him and they see 343 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: what this case really was about, which was not represented 344 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: in the original accounts of this of this case. 345 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 1: And it's an unbelievable winda into just the most horrific 346 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: types of crime that again target children. And I'm going 347 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: to go back to the young man we were talking 348 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: about in the state park. He not only was a teacher, 349 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: but he got that job over and over and over 350 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: in different states. So they're there, and they're going to 351 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: go to the places where they can get to the 352 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: victims of choice. 353 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: And let's not forget the female teacher who was also 354 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 2: recently caught engaging in a relationship with an underage child. 355 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: It's not just guys. 356 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely excellent point. Yes, And that's the thing. If 357 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: you're wanting to be with a child of a certain age, 358 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: then you're going to be a little league football coach, 359 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: or you're going to teach you the elementary school, you're 360 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: going to be a malsana. You're going to gravitate to 361 00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: those jobs. 362 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of ways in if you really determine. 363 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: Of course, pracy, what do you think when the documentary 364 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: is out and people are going to be able to 365 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: engage and talk about it and hopefully start asking some questions. 366 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: What do you want them to be able to take 367 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: away from it to use immediately? 368 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 3: You know, there's I actually want to kind of flip 369 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: that question. If it's okay, what I. 370 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Don't, Honey, you flip anything you want, Thank you, I'm 371 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: here flipping. 372 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: But the thing that I don't want people to take 373 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 3: away are people who are dead set in seeing this 374 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: individual as one of the worst criminals of all time. 375 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 3: You know, the things that he did while he was 376 00:25:53,280 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 3: under the influence of a complete, you know, completely manipulative, 377 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 3: dangerous individual. The things that he did were not things 378 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: that he would have done had he not met that person. 379 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 3: And so when you think about him committing murder, we 380 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: have to put that in context. And if people are 381 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 3: constantly banging the drum of this is a more than 382 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: fifty year old narrative, the narrative has to stick. We 383 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 3: have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and 384 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: never redeemable, no matter what he says and no matter 385 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: what new information we have. That's something that I will 386 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 3: be very frustrated if people decide to seize on language 387 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: or you know, parts of this story without viewing the 388 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 3: entire body of information. What I would hope people do 389 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 3: is they say, oh, my goodness, I can't believe. And 390 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 3: this was the same for the investigation into John Wayne Gacy. 391 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: I think it will prove out in the investigation of 392 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein is that what we've had here are people 393 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 3: that are in power, who have access to these illicit activities. 394 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 3: They exploit them, they benefit from, you know, expressing their perversions, 395 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 3: and then they get to write the history that we've 396 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 3: now had for the past fifty years, assigning Elma Wyn 397 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: Henley Junior all of the viciousness in these crimes. And 398 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 3: what I want people to take away from is, no, 399 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 3: this was a child. You know. This afternoon, doctor Ramselin 400 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 3: and I were saying, you know, can we accurately get 401 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 3: the age at which Elmayn Henley would have been involved 402 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 3: in these crimes? And we went between fourteen and fifteen 403 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 3: years old, And the conclusion we both came to is 404 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 3: that's still very young. When I imagine my three children 405 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: being that age. You know, this is these are not 406 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: capable individuals. These are still forming individuals. And so I 407 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 3: just feel as though, you know, if we can look 408 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: at this with a new information, then we see how 409 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 3: many people prevented Dean Coral being discovered earlier. How many 410 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 3: people must have known he was creating pornography, how many 411 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 3: people must have known that they were purchasing his pornography, 412 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 3: and that there was a ring that surrounded him that was, 413 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: you know, very wealthy and very connected. So what we 414 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: want to walk away from is, let's take a good 415 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 3: look at who we're dealing with. Let's understand why that 416 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 3: individual might be making a suggestion about taking our kids 417 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 3: and kind of you know, doing things with them that 418 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 3: are it just doesn't make sense. Why don't we go 419 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: ahead in question authority a little bit more. That's what 420 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: I'm hoping people will walk away with, not that they 421 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 3: will be afraid of anyone, but that they will be 422 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: more informed about how to behave in these situations and 423 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: not take situations in which authorities are presented to us 424 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: and take them just lock stock and barrel everything that 425 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: they do. Oh, that must make sense, you know. I 426 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: did a lot of research into the former Speaker of 427 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 3: the House, Dennis Haster as a result of looking into 428 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 3: these cases, and when I think about how many victims 429 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: Dennis Hastard had, even though he continued to progress in 430 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: power and status and wealth, and you look back on 431 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 3: him now and you think, you know, it's just horrible 432 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 3: that we empowered him, and we shouldn't be letting people 433 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 3: get away with these things. 434 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: And you know, Doc she mentioned Gacy, and you know 435 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: he was part of a sex rink. I thought that 436 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: was going to come out at Delphi, that there was 437 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: a sex ring when I first heard that one man 438 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: was texting one of the victims and said, Hey, meet 439 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: me at the bridge on this day this time, And 440 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: there just happened to be a second individual, a child killer, 441 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: on that same bridge at the same date and time. 442 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: I thought, surely these people know each other. And then 443 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: they were found on the property of another man that 444 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: had a background, and I just thought, this has got 445 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: to be a ring. 446 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's definitely not that. The problem 447 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: with relying on the information we have is that there's 448 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: a cognitive error we make that all the information we 449 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: have is all there is, and that's not necessarily true. 450 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: There could be things we will find out later or 451 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: which will never be uncovered, but which are nevertheless true. 452 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to feed a conspiracy theory here, but 453 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: but I always am very careful about saying that we 454 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: have the final story on any case, because I've watched 455 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: just this case, for example, I've watched how it evolved 456 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: as we've come up with more and more information. There's 457 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: still stuff being found that we weren't even able to 458 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 2: add in because it's only been found recently. So I 459 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: think that that I wouldn't say definitively there wasn't one 460 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: or that we'll never find out. I think I think 461 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 2: this is that is a case that has some dark spaces, 462 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: yet still I think. 463 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: I would agree with you one hundred percent, because I've 464 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: even said I can't fathom the coincidence that would take. 465 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: I imagine y'all get a lot of questions. I at one 466 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: is about Wayne. Did he ever have any remorse or 467 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: does he have remorse? 468 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: Now? 469 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: You know, having spoken with him on a regular basis, 470 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: sometimes twice a week for the past five years, we've 471 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: had many discussions about Wayne's remorse and how he wish, 472 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: you know. One of the first conversations that him and 473 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: I actually had, starting in March of twenty twenty, was 474 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 3: I said did you realize that you were part of 475 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 3: a sex trafficking ring? And he said he was very 476 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 3: intimidated by that. He said, I don't think I know 477 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: what you're referring to. I said, I need you to 478 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: know that a lot of your victims appeared in pornography 479 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 3: that you had no responsibility for. I said that pornography 480 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 3: was distributed over years and found again and again in 481 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: various collections. And him hearing this was just mind blowing 482 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: to him. He had never even considered it. He had 483 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 3: heard of syndicate, He had understood there might be other 484 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: people in Dallas associated with Dean Coral, but he had 485 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 3: never been able to He just wanted to follow along 486 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 3: with what had been told to him in court. You 487 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 3: are responsible for these murders that you've committed, and you 488 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 3: will forever be, you know, at the receiving end of guilt. 489 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: And he just kind of banged that drum all along. 490 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 3: And so once we started talking about, wait, this is 491 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: a reality that you were not the sole apprentice of 492 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 3: this individual. More than likely there were apprentices before you 493 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: that no longer existed when you got there. And then 494 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: to kind of bring him into police records that he 495 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: had never had access to that they knew right away 496 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 3: that there was pornography of the victims. That they started 497 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: to associate this with an individual in data Listen named 498 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 3: John David Norman, but that this individual, who was arrested 499 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 3: initially for having four tons of child pornography in Dallas, 500 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 3: managed to escape on bond to the suburbs of Chicago, 501 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 3: uniting with associates of John Wayne Gacy. When you think 502 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 3: about that whole large scenario, I think that Wayne finally 503 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: got some relief in the idea that wait, I was 504 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 3: not old enough to consent to this. I didn't even 505 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 3: understand maybe what was happening, and the behaviors that I 506 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: experienced were merely for survival. And that was something that 507 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: I think both of us had to convince him of 508 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 3: instead of just that he was responsible for every single 509 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 3: murder that happened. 510 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when I first talked to him, one 511 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: of the very first things he said to me was, 512 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this. Wow, 513 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: what a way to introduce yourself. And you know, but 514 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: I knew that eventually I would be introducing him to 515 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: the literature from neuro psychology and the teenage brain, and 516 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 2: you know, things like that that would help him understand 517 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: much more about how easily kids are to manipulate. And 518 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't want him necessarily to take a 519 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: stance of resistance, but repeatedly he has expressed remorse and 520 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: he doesn't understand why people don't think he's capable of it, 521 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: which was the idea, you know, back when he was 522 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 2: trying to do some media in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 523 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 2: people just didn't believe that he could he could be 524 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: genuine or have any real deep feeling about being remorseful. 525 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: But he he's horrified at how at what he was 526 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: capable of doing under the influence of Dean Coral. And he, 527 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: as he says in the documentary, I'm still living my 528 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: life inside Dean Coral because I'm here because of Dean Coral. 529 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: And these are not the things I would have ever 530 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: wanted to do. He wanted to be a minister, and 531 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket 532 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: Bible around with him. And that's somebody who's not a 533 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: person who wanted to bring harm to others. And so 534 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 2: I think that it's hard for him to understand why 535 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: do people question his ability to feel the remorse that 536 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 2: he says he has, and yet we do come across 537 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 2: that a lot. 538 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: That's powerful. And I just appreciate you both. I mean, 539 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: y'all know how I feel about your work. It is 540 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: invaluable and it is something that needs to be in 541 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: the hands of every teacher and counselor and parent and 542 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: coach and anybody that deals with children in any way. 543 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: So I just appreciate you both. And congratulations on the documentary. 544 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: That is significant and it is well earned and deserved. 545 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. We really appreciate you. 546 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: Cheryl anytime, anytime, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven 547 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote, some 548 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: people still to stay alive and some people still to 549 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: feel alive, simple as that. From a Darker shade of magic. 550 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.