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Speaker 1: Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel

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Speaker 1: one thirty two. Hundreds of thousands of people are calling

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Speaker 1: for the pardon of a convicted killer after the Netflix

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Speaker 1: series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case

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Speaker 1: that put him behind bars. We have Stephen Avery, and

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Speaker 1: Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Aver. He's

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Speaker 1: the Wisconsin man who served eighteen years in prison for

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Speaker 1: rape before exonerated. In two thousand and three. We the

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Speaker 1: jury find the defendant guilty of only to find himself

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Speaker 1: in prison again on a murder conviction. In two thousand seven.

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Speaker 1: Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied

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Speaker 1: and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where he needs

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Speaker 1: to be in prison. I think he was innocent. Is

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Speaker 1: innocent unless you've been living in a cave or hiding

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Speaker 1: under a rock. You know about Netflix? I mean I

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Speaker 1: do I have to navigate it very carefully, though, because

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Speaker 1: my twins like to get on there and watch kid shows.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot more on there than kids shows, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you that much. But right now I don't

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Speaker 1: think I know a single soul that doesn't know about

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Speaker 1: the Netflix so called documentary called Making a Murderer, which

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Speaker 1: takes thousands and thousands of hours of footage, cuts it

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Speaker 1: down and suggest that a convicted killer, Stephen Avery, did

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Speaker 1: not murder a young photographer to rease the hallback. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is how I know about the case. When I

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Speaker 1: first encountered the case, I was covering it as a

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Speaker 1: missing person to raise the hallback. A twentysomething year old girl,

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Speaker 1: just beautiful. She was like the girl next door for

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Speaker 1: some reason. She always reminds me of Maryanne all Gilgan's

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Speaker 1: Island um. Not necessarily physically upbeat photographer trying to make

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Speaker 1: her way in the world, brunette, big brown eyes, always

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Speaker 1: smiling and every picture I ever saw of her, and

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Speaker 1: she was taking pictures, photos for auto Trader, I think

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Speaker 1: it was. And she did not want to go to

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Speaker 1: a certain gig because the guy was creepy, like answering

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Speaker 1: the door or nothing. But a towel. I mean I

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Speaker 1: would turn around and leave right there. Okay, but that aside,

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Speaker 1: she needed the money. She got a call back from

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Speaker 1: the guy to take a picture of a vehicle for

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Speaker 1: Auto Trader. She heads out the door, told us, tells

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Speaker 1: her coworker she doesn't want to go, heads out the door.

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Speaker 1: She's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: Stephen Avery, the star of Making a Murderer on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: It caught the country by storm, and everybody's convinced Stephen

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Speaker 1: Avery didn't do it. Okay. With me is a very

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Speaker 1: important guest today, Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead

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Speaker 1: investigator on the Avery case, as I like to say

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Speaker 1: the Tersa Hallback case. Also with me Crime Online investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Lee Egan, and of course Alan Duke joining me

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Speaker 1: from l A. Tom, I can't tell you what an

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Speaker 1: honor it is, and I don't know how many times

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Speaker 1: you've heard me say something like that, probably very few.

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Speaker 1: And honor to have you on because you have endeared

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Speaker 1: the onslaught of the media suggesting Stephen Avery did not

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Speaker 1: rape and murder to Esa Haulback, I mean, come on,

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Speaker 1: when I had him on my show on h l

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Speaker 1: N Headline News. He lied right to my face, Tom,

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Speaker 1: he lied about what happened that evening. Why lie about it?

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Speaker 1: It seems like you'd be trying to help find her.

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Speaker 1: Why are you convinced, Tom and dummy down for me? Okay,

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Speaker 1: give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is

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Speaker 1: guilty of rape and murder because a judge has rejected

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Speaker 1: his request for a new trial? Thank heaven? Why are

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Speaker 1: you convinced Tom Fassbender that the judge was right? Well, Nancie,

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Speaker 1: thank you first for having me on, And why I

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Speaker 1: am convinced? I'm gonna dum you down as much as

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Speaker 1: they can. Here is number one, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly

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Speaker 1: who's that Stephen Avery did this? And number two, you

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Speaker 1: can disregard a little of the scientific evidence and you

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Speaker 1: can go right back to what you mentioned earlier, that

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Speaker 1: Stephen Avery lured Teresa to his place by using different names,

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Speaker 1: by using Star Sixtus to his identity. Wait a minute, Tom,

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Speaker 1: dare I dare I change a word you're saying? But

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Speaker 1: when you say did this? You know in polite company

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Speaker 1: when I grew up, we wouldn't even say cancer out loud.

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Speaker 1: We would say she got cancer. Okay, things that are bad.

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Speaker 1: They have a drinking problem. You said, did this, Let's

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Speaker 1: just put it out there. He chained her to a bed,

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Speaker 1: chained her to a bed with his little nephew or

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Speaker 1: cousin there, Brendan Dacy chained her to a bed. She

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Speaker 1: was raped repeatedly. All her hair was cut off, her

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Speaker 1: head and neil. She was shot dead after a brutal rape,

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Speaker 1: chained down, then her body was put in a quote

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Speaker 1: fire pit in his backyard, which he stirred well into

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Speaker 1: and night. Friends relatives saw him doing it and in

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Speaker 1: that fire pit. Later were recovered, not too much, but

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Speaker 1: her teeth and the studs offered daisy flintest Jane she

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Speaker 1: was wearing that she was last sane. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: That's the this to which you referred. That is correct,

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Speaker 1: Steven Every murdered Teresa Halbach and burned her in that

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Speaker 1: pit where we found her creamines, bones, keeth and even

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Speaker 1: the little ribbits on the Jeane she was wearing that day.

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Speaker 1: Why do you know he didn't? I don't care no

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Speaker 1: offense Netflix, because I watch you. Why are they wrong?

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Speaker 1: And the jury was right because of the nancy. That

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Speaker 1: jury heard all the evidence to include Stephen Avery's DNA

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Speaker 1: on the hood latch off Teresa's rap four vehicle, Stephen

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Speaker 1: Avery having burned her electronics, her telephone, her p d A,

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Speaker 1: and her camera in his burned barrel. You didn't see

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Speaker 1: that on Netflix. Wait a minute, will you say that again? Plays?

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm writing notes as fast as I can. Tom

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Speaker 1: fast Bander, what now? Teresas hallbox, electronics, her telephone, her

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Speaker 1: her camera, and her PDA where found burned in Stephen

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Speaker 1: Avery's burned barrel. There were witnesses to that burned barrel

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Speaker 1: burning that day October thirty one, two thousand five. There

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Speaker 1: were witnesses seeing Stephen walking to that burned barrel. There

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Speaker 1: was a witness who smelled plastics and her stuff was

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Speaker 1: filing in ned burn barrel. You don't see that on

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Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary, and there's no way you can mistake that.

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Speaker 1: Lee Egan, investigative Reporter, Crime Online. UM. I will never

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Speaker 1: forget the first time I smelled burned electronics or plastics.

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Speaker 1: It was after nine one one September eleven in New

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Speaker 1: York where I was living at the time of nine

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Speaker 1: one one, and the whole city smell like burning. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Plastic her electronics. I mean, nobody had to tell me

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Speaker 1: what it was. I knew what it was. I've been

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Speaker 1: a million, Arson says, and I hadn't smelled it so heavily. Lee. Yep,

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Speaker 1: absolutely they and there was people like like Mr Fastmanner

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Speaker 1: said there was a lot of evidence that was left

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Speaker 1: out of that documentary, including people did say they smelled

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Speaker 1: burning plastics electronics, something coming from that burn pit, and

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Speaker 1: one and something else. He brought up about the DNA

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Speaker 1: on the hood latch. That was one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: the judge actually denied this this new motion because his attorney,

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Speaker 1: Avery's attorney, Zellner, she said something that she tested eleven

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Speaker 1: or like fifteen people. She tested fifteen people with their

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Speaker 1: DNA on the hood latch, and only eleven people's DNA matched,

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Speaker 1: So she's trying to say there's no way to say

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Speaker 1: Avery's DNA could have matched, which, of course, the judge says,

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Speaker 1: even if eleven or fifteen people did not match, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean one particular person wouldn't have left DNA. I

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Speaker 1: want to get back to the facts as you know

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Speaker 1: them with me. Lead investigator in the Stephen Avery prosecution,

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Speaker 1: Detective Tom fastbender. I had in, did you, so you

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Speaker 1: can clarify for me anyway that Teresa's cell phone, her

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Speaker 1: p d A, her camera were all burned in the

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Speaker 1: fire pit that even relatives and friends saw Stephen Avery

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Speaker 1: stirring and burning into the night. It was later claimed

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Speaker 1: police planted all that. But he's the one that relatives.

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Speaker 1: Avery's relatives and friends saw tending the fire, not police.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back to the facts as you

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Speaker 1: know them, Tom Fassbinder, Go ahead, I'll try not to interrupt.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, no, no problem, Um, Yeah, it was the

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Speaker 1: burn He had two places that he burned. He had

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Speaker 1: the burned pit where he burned Teresa's body, and he

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Speaker 1: also had the burned barrel in front of his house

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Speaker 1: stats where he had the electronics. So two different locations

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Speaker 1: where he was burning and Teresa. And then the evidence

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Speaker 1: and then the other thing are you gonna mention? Was

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Speaker 1: in the garage where we knew that that Stephen had

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Speaker 1: shot Teresa and killed her. A bullet fragment was found

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Speaker 1: and on nipple a fragment was Teresa's DNA and all

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Speaker 1: saw that bullet fragment was forensically matched to the twenty

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Speaker 1: two rifle hanging above Stephen Avery's bed board, which his

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Speaker 1: nephew told us he had used to do this, and

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Speaker 1: that was not mentioned in making a murder either, that

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Speaker 1: the bullet was forensically matched two of that twenty two

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Speaker 1: caliber rifles. So in order for police to have planted

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Speaker 1: the evidence as it is now claimed, you're telling me

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Speaker 1: not a bullet but a bullet fragment, and having tested

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Speaker 1: forensically so many hundreds hundreds of bullets at the least

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Speaker 1: with the crime lab as a prosecutor, A bullet fragment

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Speaker 1: is mangled, it is destroyed. It's a squished up, mutilated

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Speaker 1: piece of metal. And this tiny piece of metal was

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Speaker 1: part of a twenty two bullet for a twenty two

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Speaker 1: weapon bullet, and it had Teresa Halback's DNA on it,

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Speaker 1: who shot in the head that was found in Avery's garages.

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Speaker 1: That correct, com That is correct. Hold on with me

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Speaker 1: right now, a special guest. Hunter skull Nick, criminal defense

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Speaker 1: attorney joining me out of New York. Hunter, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. I want to hear your thinking

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Speaker 1: on the judge's denial of Stephen Avery's motion for a

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Speaker 1: brand new trial. What do you think and why? Uh? Well,

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Speaker 1: let's let me put it this way, and thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me here. I do appreciate it. UM. I

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Speaker 1: just find it very concerning that the judge would deny

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Speaker 1: a new trial at this point where you have an

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Speaker 1: appellate court that's already um disapproved the way in which

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Speaker 1: the the the information was obtained from Avery's nephew. If

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Speaker 1: his conviction is weak based upon um uh improper handling

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Speaker 1: of of of of the young man, and this convey

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Speaker 1: and this confession, and much of the proof against Avery

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Speaker 1: begins with that, UM, why wouldn't you at least give

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Speaker 1: a new trial. I'm not suggesting, UM, he's innocent simply

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Speaker 1: because of that. I'm not I'm not suggesting additional UH

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Speaker 1: testing or police work shouldn't be allowed into the trial.

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Speaker 1: But there's a chaint here. Why put someone away to

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Speaker 1: jail with that type of taint and not give the

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Speaker 1: opportunity for a retrial. It just doesn't make sense with me,

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Speaker 1: as Hunter School Nick Criminal Defense Journey out of New York. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think Tom Fastbinder the appellate reasoning was that Brendan Dacy,

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Speaker 1: although I completely disagree with them, had no idea what

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Speaker 1: he was doing when he confessed to police that he

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Speaker 1: raped at Stephen Avery's urging rape Teresa Holback. I don't

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Speaker 1: recall he ever said that he took part in the murder,

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Speaker 1: but that he did rape her. And he said that

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Speaker 1: on tape and on video, and his mother knew he

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Speaker 1: was there, his lawyer, detective investigators knew he was there

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Speaker 1: speaking to police. The appellate court said that his i

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Speaker 1: Q was low, so he didn't understand what he was saying.

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Speaker 1: Is my understanding of the decision that really the mastermind

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Speaker 1: was Stephen Avery, not Brendan Dacy, the nephew. So how

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Speaker 1: in the world with an appellate court saying it was

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Speaker 1: really Stephen Avery, should we reverse and grant a new

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Speaker 1: trial for Stephen Avery. That that's just food for thought.

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Speaker 1: But Tom Fassbender, you mentioned the burn pits and the

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Speaker 1: two locations of burning Teresa Haulback body and possessions. What

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Speaker 1: DNA was found on Teresa Avery's car which was hidden

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Speaker 1: at the back of Stephen Avery's auto salvage a lot.

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Speaker 1: What what DNA was on her car which was found

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Speaker 1: on his property. The DNA found it was in the

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Speaker 1: car and it was in blood form. And Stephen Avery's

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Speaker 1: DNA was found and essentially all portions of that car,

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Speaker 1: the front of the car, the mid section of the car,

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Speaker 1: the back of the car. Theresa Hall box of blood

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Speaker 1: DNA was also found in the storage area in the

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Speaker 1: back of that raft for when her body was placed

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Speaker 1: in the back of that car after being shot. Tom Fastbender,

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Speaker 1: you have reconstructed the entire day is Halloween back in

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Speaker 1: oh five. You've reconstructed the entire day that Theresa Hall

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Speaker 1: Back endured her last day on earth. What does the

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Speaker 1: evidence tell you happened from the time she left her

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Speaker 1: office or her job to go take those pictures? What

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Speaker 1: happened to her? The Treesa began her day early in

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Speaker 1: the morning, and basically she was lured to Stephen Avery's

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Speaker 1: house by Stephen Avery for the purpose of Stephen Avery

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Speaker 1: abducting her and ultimately killing her, murdering her um. There's

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Speaker 1: no question about that. The scientific evidence show is that,

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Speaker 1: and I will address Hunter's comments were just a second

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Speaker 1: in that Brendan Dacy's confession was not used in Stephen

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Speaker 1: Avery's trial, so there was no connection in that respect.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Avery was convicted on the evidence. So the nephews testimony,

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Speaker 1: the nephew's confession to raping her before she was murdered

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Speaker 1: while she was chained down on a bed that never

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Speaker 1: came into Stephen Avery's trial. That is correct, so there

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Speaker 1: was not an essential piece of that trial. The court,

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Speaker 1: the trial courts just recently found and denied Stephen Avery's

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Speaker 1: motion for a new trial, and in my opinion, because

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Speaker 1: it was based on theory, assumption and accusations not backed

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Speaker 1: by evidence. And what what resulted what we anticipated from

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Speaker 1: the court dismissal and emotion in its entirety without a hearing.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, we hope that the Hall Blacks

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Speaker 1: family can take the next step towards closure in this

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Speaker 1: case and a law enforcement can be further vindicated in

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Speaker 1: the great job that in this case. February two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school,

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Speaker 1: crashes her car, and vanishes. Joined the search as an

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence and charrygates new witnesses, traces

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Speaker 1: down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The

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Speaker 1: Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven sixth Central and nine

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Speaker 1: eighth Central on Oxygen the new network for Crime with

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Speaker 1: Me is Detective Tom Fastbender, who is the lead investigator

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Speaker 1: on the Avery case. As I like to say that

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Speaker 1: Teresa hallback case Also with Me Crime Online investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: Lee Egan, and Hunt her skull Nick criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: joining me out of New York. Based on the evidence, Tom,

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Speaker 1: she leaves her office to go take photos. She had

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Speaker 1: taken photos for every before and he was so creepy.

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Speaker 1: She didn't want to go back, and she told her

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Speaker 1: friends that at work, but she went back anyway. What

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Speaker 1: happens then, Tom, basically evidence She gets there between about

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Speaker 1: two between two thirty and three, takes photo of the car,

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Speaker 1: and Stephen has her come up to his house where

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Speaker 1: she's abducted, um ultimately raped and murdered. His next door

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Speaker 1: neighbor and nephew saw Teresa there taking picture of the car,

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Speaker 1: saw her walk towards Teresa or towards Stephen's house, and

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Speaker 1: then when he left the house to go hunting, Teresa's

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Speaker 1: carr was still there and Teresa was not around, and

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Speaker 1: neither was Stephen. What did she endure in her last hours? Tom,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't even want to imagine what she

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Speaker 1: she endured her last hours. And because of that, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not and vitalize what she enduring the last hour,

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Speaker 1: You know, Alan, do that takes a lot for a

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Speaker 1: seasoned investigator, a veteran investigator like Time Fastbender, not to

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Speaker 1: even want to think about it. You know, I've had

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Speaker 1: cases like that where I just can't stand to even

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Speaker 1: think about it. It makes me want to vomit. It

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Speaker 1: makes me just want to run outside. And how I

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Speaker 1: remember a feeling, Alan. I had been working on my

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Speaker 1: first book. It was a nonfiction called Objection, and one

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Speaker 1: of the chapters is called blood Money, How people make

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Speaker 1: money off crime and murder. And I had detailed how

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Speaker 1: people by autopsy reports and they try to get crime

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Speaker 1: scene just horrible, horrible stuff. And by the time I

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Speaker 1: finished that book, I threw away the laptop. The laptop had,

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Speaker 1: I know, it sounds crazy, the laptop had researched so

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Speaker 1: many horrible, horrible things to write that book about what

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Speaker 1: people do. I couldn't even stand to put my fingertips

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Speaker 1: on it again. I just I just couldn't, and I

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Speaker 1: threw it away. I ran out and got another three

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Speaker 1: hundred dollar. Look, but what I'm saying is it, just

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Speaker 1: I don't blame him about not wanting to describe it again. Right.

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Speaker 1: Let me first say this about Detective Tom Fastbender. I

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Speaker 1: met him at Crime Con. He changed my mind. I

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Speaker 1: watched that whole Netflix series. I think I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: free Steve Avery, get him a new trial. And then

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Speaker 1: I sat and we talked with Tom Fassbender, the detective.

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Speaker 1: I came away with a different opinion. And uh, I

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Speaker 1: really respect you, know Alan, I'm embarrassed for you, okay,

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Speaker 1: because you clearly don't have the wherewithal to know you

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Speaker 1: should be embarrassed. But um, I get it. Okay. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people have watched it and believed it. But

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm wrong in saying that because I was

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Speaker 1: on the case at the beginning, not to the degree

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Speaker 1: of course Tom was, but covering it as a missing

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Speaker 1: person because something about Teresa Hallback caught my attention and

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Speaker 1: when I saw a picture and then we interviewed. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed Avery and he lied about that evening he did

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Speaker 1: Star sixty seven. I think is the one you used

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Speaker 1: to hide your identity when you make a phone call

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Speaker 1: and tried to call her and uh, waiting for her

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Speaker 1: to get there and then after she's dead, he then

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Speaker 1: calls her with his with caller I D calls on

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Speaker 1: her phone so people can know he called, and you

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Speaker 1: know it's five thirty of your sis. He goes, hey,

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Speaker 1: what happened? You never showed up? He left that message.

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Speaker 1: But to me he said, she never came. And wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: what did he say that she came and she left?

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Speaker 1: That was his story. She came, she took the pictures,

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Speaker 1: and she left. But he's leaving her the message, which

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Speaker 1: is caught on audio, Hey where are you? He never came?

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Speaker 1: So why the two different stories? Time fast bender? Why

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Speaker 1: lie to me on national TV about what happened? Well? Exactly. Stephen,

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Speaker 1: through out his accounts, especially early on in the case,

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Speaker 1: had varying accounts of what happened. Now the call he

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Speaker 1: made after she allegedly left for his rendition, he actually

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Speaker 1: didn't even message, but he did make the call. Didn't

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Speaker 1: hide his idea, and that was his ali by a

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Speaker 1: call because he told us that she had left and

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Speaker 1: he was going to call her back. But early on

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Speaker 1: he had told the auto trader that she never showed up.

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Speaker 1: Then it changed too, she showed up, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: come out. I saw taking pictures. Then it changed who

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Speaker 1: I did come out and she actually came into my house.

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Speaker 1: So his his stories changed. Your stories shouldn't have to

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Speaker 1: change if it's the truth, and if nothing happened, there's

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Speaker 1: there's no reason for that to occur. So you're right

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Speaker 1: on the on the change. I think I remember this, Tom,

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Speaker 1: I think I remember this as well, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to Alan pulled the transcript for me on what

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Speaker 1: he said on ALN But I recall quizzing him. I

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Speaker 1: went easy on him at first, but then I started

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Speaker 1: quizzing him because he told me Tom that he was

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Speaker 1: there the whole day and that he never saw her

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Speaker 1: car come by and go anywhere. And then I started

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Speaker 1: quizzing him because of course her car was found at

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Speaker 1: the back at the back of his property. He said,

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Speaker 1: where's your office that you were sitting in, and he

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Speaker 1: told me he goes. He said, I've got a window

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Speaker 1: looks right out and said, so you could see for

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Speaker 1: sure anybody that came in or out. He went yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then how did her car get secretly put there

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Speaker 1: by police? Well, he's sitting there and he never saw it,

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Speaker 1: and well, what is his kookie theory? About this was

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Speaker 1: all trumped up by police. Tom, that police what killed

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Speaker 1: her and planted her body there? I mean, who does

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Speaker 1: he say killed her? Well, ultimately I know that you

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Speaker 1: gus said police did it and police framed him. The

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Speaker 1: defense was that it was planted and that hected the

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Speaker 1: police framed him. And I mean there's another explanation other

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Speaker 1: than the police did it. Now, there's some theories, but

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Speaker 1: the defense that you know, my boyfriend did it or

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Speaker 1: someone else did it floating around there because they have

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Speaker 1: to keep uspen at these straws. Well, that didn't work.

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Speaker 1: Let's try this. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this,

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Speaker 1: and it gets the point of ridiculousness. The evidence speaks

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Speaker 1: for itself. Stephen a re abductive and killed Teresa Hallback

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Speaker 1: and uh far this to continue to go on is

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Speaker 1: such a travish in our front of the hall Black

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Speaker 1: family and and the true victims in this case. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, Tom, and I'm going to come back to

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Speaker 1: County School. Nick veteran trial lawyer out of it New York,

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Speaker 1: joining us today. You know what's funny? That funny odd

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Speaker 1: people have hunches, and I've always said they're not imaginary.

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Speaker 1: They're not without um merit. Hunches are something that is

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Speaker 1: ingrained in us. It's from thousands and thousands of years

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Speaker 1: of existence. You get a feeling. It may be something

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Speaker 1: you see or you smell, or you hear, or you

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Speaker 1: recall something subtle that you can't put your and you're on.

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Speaker 1: But it's real hunches, a real Teresa haulback how to hunch?

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Speaker 1: She did not want to go back to Steve and

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Speaker 1: Avery's to take those pictures that day. She did not

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Speaker 1: want to go back. She went back because it was

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Speaker 1: her job. She has never seen alive again. Question do

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Speaker 1: you hunter? Although the judge has now ruled he will

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Speaker 1: not get emotional, he won't not get a new trial,

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Speaker 1: That's not the end of it. The Making a Murderer

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Speaker 1: Star Stephen Avery could still get a new trial. How

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Speaker 1: absolutely well we know that there's there is an agreement

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Speaker 1: between the Wisconsin Attorney General as I understand it, and

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Speaker 1: Avery's attorneys for additional testing UM forensic testing UH, and

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Speaker 1: they plan on on proceeding down that that path and

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Speaker 1: also UM based on that agreement, seeking to obtain new

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Speaker 1: evidence and and and if something comes from that additional testing,

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Speaker 1: I think you're gonna you're gonna see another petition before

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Speaker 1: the judge, um and and and an argument that a

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Speaker 1: new trial should should go forward. Yeah. The one thing

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Speaker 1: I think we can all agree is that this was

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Speaker 1: a horrific murder. There's no question, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: anyone's contesting that she went through a horror beyond imagination.

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Speaker 1: I think we have to also look at the fact

426
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: that there is going to be additional testing being done

427
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: at this time, scientific testing which was agreed to as

428
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: I understand it, between the Attorney General uh and and

429
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: defense counsel. So you know there's something here. Um, the

430
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: question is what is it? And did the did the

431
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: investigating officers and time? I'm you know, with all all

432
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: the respect to everyone, I know you guys do a

433
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: uh you want to take a very tough job. Um.

434
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: The boyfriend has to be looked at closely. They have

435
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: a lot of issues here. As his lawyer states, quote,

436
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: the bottom line is neither we nor avery have any

437
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: intention of giving up and not proceeding. He is absolutely innocent.

438
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how his lawyers can do it,

439
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: but they are doing it well. You know, look at

440
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: look at it from a different stance at standpoint, this

441
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: is a man who spent fifteen years in jail, wrongly

442
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: convicted and only exonerated based upon DNA evidence. UM. He

443
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: could have given up in that case as well, and

444
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: he has every right to to to pursue additional scientific testing,

445
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: additional forensic testing, irrespective of all the evidence that is

446
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: there right now. UM. I understand there was blood found.

447
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: I understand there's evidence, forensic evidence, um. But there was

448
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: also some questionable conduct with respect to the nephew's interrogation

449
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: that deals with the nephew's case. That deals with the

450
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: nephew's case, not stephen A. But I understand. But it

451
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: was the same team investigating the whole case. Okay, I

452
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: hear you. I hear you. That can't be attained. Is

453
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: really is really, That's just what it is. It's a

454
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: suggestion by you and the defense lawyers. And I understand

455
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: the suggestion. I disagree with it because Brendan Dacy outright

456
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: said he raped Teresa Hallback. I've never thought he killed her.

457
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: I thought he was there when she was killed. That's

458
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: what he said. As a matter of fact. Take a

459
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: listen to the nephew. Brendan Dacy as he says he

460
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: quote had sex with Teresa hallback. Of course she was

461
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this.

462
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: He's gonna revision one thing. When you're in the bedroom

463
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: and and you cut her throat. Previously you said that

464
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: even thought she was alive. Is that still your thought

465
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: on that? And why was that? Because she was preating

466
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: a little bit usly China, I'm not trying to breathe this.

467
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: How does she got I'm screaming up, screaming a lot.

468
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: She was screaming a lot, or wasn't she was when

469
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: you cut her throat? Was she screaming when you cut

470
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: her killed? Because when you're screaming a lot, you're like

471
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 1: your breathing goes off. Her song explained as a little bit.

472
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 1: You said she was screaming up. When was she screaming

473
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: up like while you were doing it, after you did it,

474
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: before you did it before when you cut her throat,

475
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: What was she doing if anything, like screaming for help

476
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: and crying. I want to I want to get that straight.

477
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: She was screaming for help and crying when you cut

478
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: her throat? Yeah, when did Stephen Choker or strangler like

479
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: a little bit after. Well, let's let's just go back

480
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: a little bit. Okay, tell us what exactly happened to her?

481
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: What order had happened? He said, they were basically three

482
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in

483
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: the order that happened. Starting less, well, I got in. Yeah,

484
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: what what you guys did to her? It's sexy? Then

485
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's he? Okay?

486
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: And then what and I can spell it? Okay? And

487
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: he talked to an eco her hair Okay, So he

488
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: choked her after you cut her throat. Now, also listen

489
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: to what was said on HLLN when I spoke to

490
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: Stephen Aver. He lied right to my face, Steve, and

491
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot

492
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: to take photos for the Auto Trader. Correct, Yes, she did.

493
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: She came down by me. Okay. And Stephen, is my

494
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: understanding that also you say that you saw her car leave? Yes,

495
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: I did, about what time between she was there between

496
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: two and two thirty two in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen,

497
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: how is it that her car could get all the

498
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: way back in this pit area where there is uh, well,

499
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't

500
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: you have to pass back by the office again? Well,

501
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: on the on the outstart top the office ottawise, backed

502
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: by me or back by Dan's pitt in the corner

503
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: is all open. It's all open so you can drive

504
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: in there, Mr Avery. Did you see anyone else come in?

505
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: Anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, during the night,

506
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: me and my brother had to go to pick up

507
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: some motel with the pride bed and I've seen tail

508
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. But we

509
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: turned around and we went back there on the side

510
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: and I took the flat flight of flat bed and

511
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: I looked around by me and behind me, but I

512
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: didn't see that. To Lee Egan, Crime Online investigative reporter,

513
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney out of New York Huntry School, Nick,

514
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: and of course to Detective Tom Fastbender, lead investigator on

515
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: the Avery case, thank you. A gorgeous twenty year old

516
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: woman is missing. There's a five thousand dollar reward and

517
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: catch this. The missing woman is from the same North

518
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: Carolina town as three other women who vanished and were

519
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: later found dead. I'm talking about Abbey Lynn Patterson, and

520
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: as we go to sirious today, another woman a shanty

521
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: Billy also making headlines with me right now, Bobby Maxwell,

522
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold

523
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: Case Institute, and Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out

524
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: of l A along with Alan Duke. The Duke also

525
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: in l A. First to you, Bobby Maxwell, thank you

526
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 1: for being with us. I want to talk first about

527
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: Abby Lynn Patterson. What do we know about her disappearance?

528
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: Abby actually disappeared on September five from her hometown of Lumberton,

529
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: North Carolina. She had been previously living in Jacksonville, Florida

530
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: for a few years, so recently had come back and

531
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: um had a good connection with her mom, a good relationship.

532
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: Said she was stepping out, she'd be back in an hour.

533
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: That hour went up, the mother didn't see her, and

534
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: she's been missing ever since. And once again, that was

535
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: since September five in Lumberton. In Lumberton, police say that

536
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: Abby Patterson was last seeing getting into a brown buick. Okay,

537
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: she sends five seven brown here, brown eyes. She's got

538
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: a birthmore on the back of her left sigh. She

539
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: was wearing brown shorts and a white shirt when she

540
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: was last seen, says she'll be gone for an hour,

541
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: never returns. Mom repeatedly, over and over and overcalls her

542
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: cell phone, which then goes straight to voicemail. Now, Cheryl McCollum,

543
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: you're the director of the Cold Case Institute. When a

544
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: phone goes directly to a voicemail, no ring, no nothing,

545
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: It just goes to voicemail, what does that mean? What

546
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: are the choices? Well, the batteries either dead, somebody destroyed

547
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: the phone, or somebody deliberately hit in the call. So me,

548
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: the key here is that brown viewing. She willingly got

549
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: in the car. So whoever that driver is is where

550
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: we start. That's where we start. For all I know

551
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: that was a ride to Target or to Walmart, although

552
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: I want to speak to the person in the brown

553
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 1: buick to find out where her next location was. On

554
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: her case, her missing person's case, the number tipline zero

555
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: six seven won three eight four five zero six seven

556
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: one three eight four five. She goes missing right there

557
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: on East ninth Street, eleven thirty a m. On a

558
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning. After one hour, she tells her mom she's

559
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: gonna be back in one hour. Her mother calls her

560
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: in one hour, And in one hour, Cheryl McCollum, her

561
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: phone was already going directly to voicemail. Whatever was going

562
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: to happen had happened. I think within that one hour,

563
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: no question. And Nancy, it's going to be imperative that

564
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: law enforced me. Get on her social media. Look at

565
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: anybody that she you know, it's gonna take message to

566
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: or received the text message from. She went to meet someone,

567
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: No question about it. So again nine three Brown view it.

568
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: That is your whole money tree right there. Okay, let's

569
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: move forward to another woman missing, Ashanti Billy Bobby Maxwell,

570
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: Crime Stories, Investigate reporter, what can you tell me about Ashanti?

571
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: Ashanti is a nineteen year old originally from Maryland, Nancy,

572
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: and she was going to school in Virginia as a

573
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: culinary school there and Um actually worked for a blimpy

574
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: restaurant on a military base in that area as well.

575
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: She was expected in to work on September. The last

576
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: they saw of her was in her car through security

577
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: going into that military base, and reports are that she

578
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: was her car was seeing They couldn't tell if she

579
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: was in it, leaving a short time after that. She

580
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: never did show up at the workplace. And um, the

581
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: FBI was brought into the case because it was on

582
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: a military base. And sadly, she was found just recently

583
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: her body in Charlotte, North Carolina, over three hundred miles away.

584
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: Billy's body was found behind a church in Charlotte, North Carolina,

585
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: as Bobby Maxwell just reported, over three hundred miles away

586
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: from where she was last seen in Norfolk. Why why,

587
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: her family says, quote to the person or persons that

588
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: decided they wanted to take our baby away from us

589
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: and away from everyone that loved her, you are a coward.

590
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: That's what Billy's mother, Brandy said. Everyone. Please, I'm begging

591
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: everybody please pray for my baby. Please please prey for

592
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: Shinty Billy, my baby, She's not everything. Please pray for

593
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: my baby home today. Everyone, please share anyone you know

594
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: help me bring my baby a shanty hole. Please. It's

595
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: just I'm just thinking about why they're saying, Sheryl McCollum

596
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: that they cannot see whether she is the one driving

597
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: her car out on that surveillance video. I mean, come on,

598
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: we can figure we can see a rock on the

599
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: un an individual rock. We can see a footprint on

600
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: the moon, but we can't figure out who's driving the

601
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: car face backwards to get the last tag. But Nancy,

602
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: the thing is she was found three miles away. But

603
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: that's six hours driving time. That's an awful long way

604
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: for a stranger to drive a kidnap victim. So this

605
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: has a deal of it is being somewhat domestic, and

606
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: I been looking at a boyfriend or ex boyfriend. Investigators

607
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 1: find her cell phone that day in a Norfolk dumpster.

608
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: They later find her car abandoned. Okay, so somebody else

609
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: was driving that car and somebody got rid of her

610
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 1: cell phone right there on the spot. An intense search

611
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: for the teen girl ensued, and Billy's family forming a

612
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: search party to look for her, sending out flyers the works,

613
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: begging for help on Facebook. I'm looking at her picture

614
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: right now. She's absolutely beautiful. That day, she was scheduled

615
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: to show up at her job at a sandwich shop

616
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: at the Joint Expeditiary Base that's Little Creek at five

617
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: a m that Monday morning. She was a student at

618
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: the Art Institute of Virginia Beach. Last scene heading to work.

619
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: She never arrived. It's amazing to me that they haven't

620
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: found any DNA, or have they, Bobby Max Well, I mean,

621
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: we've got the car as most likely as secondary or

622
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: maybe even a primary crime scene. You have her body

623
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: now recovered dumped behind a church. It's very hard for

624
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: me to believe there's not any DNA. Obviously, Nancy, no

625
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: struggle on the base or or any kind of DNA

626
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: was showed around her workplace. And by the way, the

627
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: boyfriend does have an alabat. He was in training at

628
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: a military base in South Carolina, so he has been

629
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: ruled out. Um, but no DNA. And like you said,

630
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: a long long way to drive with someone who's fighting

631
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: to escape. If she's alive, if she's a life, a

632
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: sex assault and a murder could have taken place right there.

633
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: She was getting out of the car at five am

634
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: in the morning or earlier in the dark hour. She's

635
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: on a military base back in that car, and it

636
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: was just a matter of putting her in the trunk

637
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: and driving her to a dump site. Now, what do

638
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: we know, Sheryl McCollum about where her body was done

639
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: behind that church at Charlotte right A landscape employee found

640
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: her body behind the A. M. E. Zion Church. UM,

641
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: not covered, not a shallow gray, just out in the open.

642
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: And again, Nancy, I'm going to tell you, that's an

643
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: awful long way for a stranger to take somebody. And

644
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: usually people tend to go places they know, So again

645
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: I would look for people that knew that area and

646
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: possibly even knew that church. You're right about that was

647
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: she clothed? Do we know that? Bobby Maxwell? Don't have

648
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: any information on whether she was clothed or not. Um No,

649
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: no word on any kind of assault or anything of

650
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: that matter. You know, was hard to believe, Sheryl McColl

651
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,479
Speaker 1: I'm talking about you can't figure out who was driving

652
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: the car on surveillance video. You remember the killer clown case.

653
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: We were talking about a twenty seven year old murder

654
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: where a female dressed as a clown shows up at

655
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: a woman's door and with balloons and flowers, and when

656
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: she answers the door, shoots her in the face dead.

657
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: Twenty seven years pass and suddenly with advances in DNA technique,

658
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: they can determine who shot her according to DNA, And

659
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: we don't know about any DNA on this girl's body.

660
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: Why why is that? Maybe they're not releasing it yet, Nancy,

661
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: because they haven't released the cause of death either, And

662
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: that's probably not a bad idea with an open investigation

663
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: like this. But there's also a chance they could get

664
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: a latent print off the cell phone whoever threw that

665
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: cellphone in the dumpster, they could get a decent print

666
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: off that, or if they even were stupid enough to

667
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: use the cell phone, or prints on the car, around

668
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: the trunk, on the handle, around the ignition. Remember in

669
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: the terse in this Stephen Avery case, there's victim Teresa Hallback.

670
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: There was DNA on the ignition, the ignition Cheryl McCullum

671
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: where he's hunched over trying to start Tersa Hallback's car.

672
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: He left DNA there, exactly, You can't leave. Yeah, he

673
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: clearly used her vehicle. She didn't did her own car.

674
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: So as he used her car to transport her, which

675
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: is possible, it leads a short distance. And he had

676
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: to touch the trunk to Saren will the rear view, Mira,

677
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: the gearshift. He touched a lot of things to Dr

678
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall way in you know, this was a military

679
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: base with a lot of men. And when you told

680
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: me that the restaurant where she was working was located

681
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: on the military basis, beautiful twenty year old art student,

682
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: I just got a chill up my spine. I mean,

683
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: I just thought, from parents perspective, how vulnerable she was

684
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: working there, and what I would want to know, since

685
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: there seems to be perhaps some familiarity between her and

686
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: the abductor, who was going in and out of that restaurant.

687
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: I would want to look at all the receipts. I

688
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: would want to look at who was frequenting the restaurant.

689
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: I would want to look at her cell phone to see,

690
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: you know, who was texting, who was calling, look on

691
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: her social media because it seems to me, if there

692
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: was some familiarity between her and the perpetrator, that somebody

693
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: would have been grooming her, right, that somebody would have

694
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: targeted her. She would have been on somebody's side, and um,

695
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: so that the person would have gained her trust enough

696
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: to have persuaded her to get in the car with them.

697
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: So who could that person have been on this military base.

698
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem random, It doesn't seem like somebody just

699
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, nabbed her as she was going into work.

700
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: It seems like she knew the perpetrator. You know. Lumberton

701
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: investigators state that there are three other women who vanished

702
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: from the very same town as Abby in separate incidents,

703
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: and they were all discovered murdered slain within the last year.

704
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 1: How can this not be connected, Bobby Maxwell, Yes, Nancy,

705
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: and and not just the past year, but since April,

706
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: within the same few blocks of each other. Christina Bennett

707
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: thirty two, Rhonda Jones thirty six, they were found across

708
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: the street from each other. And then in June another woman,

709
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: Megan Oxendine, her body was found just three blocks from

710
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: the original to Sheryl mccollumb, three women, Christina Bennett thirty two,

711
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: Rhonda Jones thirty six, Megan oxen Dine, all vanished from

712
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: the same town in separate incidents, all discovered slain in

713
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: the same calendar year. Now I've got Abby missing from

714
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: what a mile away. Maybe it sounds like it's strayed

715
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: out of the two killer playbooks. I'm very concerned about

716
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: her well being, obviously, but again she's probably going to

717
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: be found within a mile of that area. You know,

718
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: in this North Carolina town, family still looking for answers

719
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: and the disappearance of three women were dashed, all their

720
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: hopes dashed when the women were found slain. To Dr

721
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, you know that Abby Lynn Patterson's family has

722
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: got to be so distraught, wondering is she the fourth

723
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: in a series where then you know a couple of

724
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: miles from each other, You know, Nancy, They must be devastated.

725
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: And the fact that her mother called her cell phone,

726
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: it went straight to voicemail, and then her daughter was

727
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: never seen or heard from again. Can you imagine from

728
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: a mother's perspective what that must feel like. And when

729
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum said this is out of the serial killer playbook,

730
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: the first thought that crossed my mind was, well that

731
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: the serial killer, then the perpetrator likely did not know

732
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: the victims, because we know serial killers do not groom

733
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 1: their victims in the same way that the serial rape

734
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: might say that somebody who might commit an abduction, rape,

735
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: homicide might, you know, sort of in its incursory way

736
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: know the victim. A serial killer will just drive through

737
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: the streets, troll through the streets, and the looking process

738
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: will be very satishized and very exciting. For them, and

739
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: then they will pick a victim because that victim is

740
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: appealing to them in some way. But the victim will

741
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: most likely be a stranger, so be more difficult for

742
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: the police to sift through the clues and find the

743
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: perpetrator if he's a serial killer. And I'm worried about

744
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: more women being at risk in this small town. You

745
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: know another clue regarding her clothing. Right after Ashanti goes missing,

746
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: I remember her body was found behind the church hundreds

747
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: of miles away. A two hour search ensued in volunteers

748
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: found a pink shoe and a sweatshirt. Okay, that's the

749
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: girl where herself? I was found later that day in

750
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: the dumpster three mile us away from the base, and

751
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: neighbors spotted her car at a dead end road. Okay,

752
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: so that was planted there on purpose. It had been

753
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: there for several days. We'll listen to this, Uh, Cheryl

754
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 1: mccollumb Cold Case Institute, what do you make of this?

755
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: Then a volunteer found the other pink shoe near where

756
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: her car was found. So one pink she found near

757
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: where she goes missing, the other pink she found near

758
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: where her car was found. So that tells me there

759
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: was a mighty struggle, no question, Nancy. This this is

760
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: the kind of thing where law enforcement those are easy

761
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: not to connect, and it also gives law enforcement, you know,

762
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: for bread comes to follow where the fight happened. She

763
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: continue to fight. That may tell us she was still

764
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: alive at that point. Or it could have been an

765
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: issue of the purp throwing things away, because there's a sweatshirt,

766
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: there is a tennisie here, a tennis shee you near

767
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: her car. There was a phone charger disposed of as well.

768
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: It could have been somebody just throwing things out. But

769
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: why would they bother to throw things out? They could

770
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: just leave them in the car. So it seems to

771
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: it bespeaks more of a struggle to me than anything else.

772
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: So what we know is a shanty was found dead,

773
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: the other women dead, some within blocks at each other,

774
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: and now another girl, Abby Lynn Patterson, is missing. So

775
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 1: what do we do now, Cheryl McCullum. Nancy, they're gonna

776
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: have to just comb the area. Abby again, she's not

777
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: gonna be far and I just do not think they're

778
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: gonna find her alive, but she will be in that

779
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: same vicinity. Cheryl McCullum directed with the Cold Case Institute

780
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: with me Dr Bethany Marshall and Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories

781
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: contributing reporter Cheryl McCullum. This guy and the brown buick, Okay,

782
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: we already know three women are dead within blocks of

783
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: each other. Where do we go to find the driver

784
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,879
Speaker 1: of that Brown buick? Nazy under the quote you will

785
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: be in you said a long time ago, Suan, don't

786
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: swim in the sewer. We have got to go with

787
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 1: this type of individual would go ceedy bars, back alley,

788
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: the gutter. We literally have got to talk to drug dealers, pimps,

789
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: and prostitute to find out who knows give perfect The

790
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: search goes on for Abbey Lynn Patterson as well as

791
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 1: for the killer of Ashanti Billy Nancy Grace Crime Stories

792
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend. In need of great talent for

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