WEBVTT - Before You Could Remember, Part 3

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back finally with

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<v Speaker 2>part three of our series on childhood amnesia. We had

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of an interruption in the series last week

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<v Speaker 2>to first of all, to some sick days and then

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<v Speaker 2>to a scheduled interview. But now we return to finish

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<v Speaker 2>off the series, so I thought we should do a

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<v Speaker 2>brief refresher on the stuff we talked about in the

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<v Speaker 2>past couple of episodes here. So the term childhood amnesia

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<v Speaker 2>refers to a couple of different facts, which are, first

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<v Speaker 2>of all, the fact that most adults cannot conjure any genuine,

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<v Speaker 2>first hand episodic memories from before roughly the age of three.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are some minor variations in that age horizon

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<v Speaker 2>that have been observed to correlate with variables like gender.

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<v Speaker 2>Girls tend to have slightly earlier memories culture. Different cultures

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<v Speaker 2>have on average different memory horizons, but on average we

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<v Speaker 2>can say most people's earliest memories tend to be somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>in the range of three years old or between three

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<v Speaker 2>or four. And then the other fact is that once

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<v Speaker 2>we do start having memories, for the next four to

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<v Speaker 2>five years after that, we have fewer memories than would

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<v Speaker 2>be predicted by the normal rate of forgetting. That holds

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<v Speaker 2>true throughout the rest of your life. So first you've

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<v Speaker 2>got no memories usually, and then you've got fewer memories,

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<v Speaker 2>and then finally the regular rate of forgetting kicks in,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe somewhere around seven or eight or so. Now, some

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<v Speaker 2>people do claim to have much earlier memories, and we've

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<v Speaker 2>heard from some of them in email. Even some people

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<v Speaker 2>claim to have memories even up to and before birth,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's impossible.

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<v Speaker 1>To rule that out.

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<v Speaker 2>It's possible in some cases people do have those memories.

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<v Speaker 2>But these claims also have to be considered alongside the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that research shows it is very easy to create

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<v Speaker 2>the false impression of a childhood memory, spurred by all

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of external prompting, anything from a photo, whether a

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<v Speaker 2>real photo or a doctored one, a story told by

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<v Speaker 2>a parent. And it's clear that these false memories implanted

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<v Speaker 2>later in life in many cases feel completely genuine to us,

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<v Speaker 2>even if they are fabricated purely for the purpose of

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<v Speaker 2>an experiment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, So we want to continue to drive that

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<v Speaker 1>home that to whatever extent a memory is accurate, augmented, fabricated,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera, that doesn't take away from the subjective reality

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<v Speaker 1>of the memory and the importance of the memory, or

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<v Speaker 1>the or the pain of the memory.

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<v Speaker 2>Well sure, you know, one of the ways I would

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<v Speaker 2>put it is that like the fact that someone has

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<v Speaker 2>a false memory, as in they have a memory of

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<v Speaker 2>an event that did not actually happen, does not mean

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<v Speaker 2>that they're like lying it. You know, like we literally

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<v Speaker 2>cannot tell the difference between real memories involves memories in

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<v Speaker 2>many cases.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and I think it's safe to say that the

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<v Speaker 1>many memories, if not all memories, are false to some degree.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now. In previous parts, we also talked about some

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<v Speaker 2>of the experimental methods used to test for memory at

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<v Speaker 2>early ages, including you know, straightforward earliest memory prompts, tell

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<v Speaker 2>me your earliest memory, things like the word Q test,

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<v Speaker 2>so tell me a memory associated with the following word.

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<v Speaker 2>We use the example of jar and so forth. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>some research we discussed in previous episodes made a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>convincing case, at least to me, that the explanation is

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<v Speaker 2>not that the brain is incapable of forming memories before

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<v Speaker 2>the average age of three or four. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>other studies we talked about included a scenario in which

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<v Speaker 2>three year olds could produce details about recent events in

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<v Speaker 2>their lives when interviewed along with their mothers, showing that

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<v Speaker 2>they did have memories of recent things that had happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and these memories could be elicited with cues from parents.

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<v Speaker 2>Though it seems in a lot of cases children this

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<v Speaker 2>young will not offer details from memory spontaneously, but if

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of coax it out of them, they can

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<v Speaker 2>produce details on their own that show they do remember things.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, plusive mom is there to help you know, right.

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<v Speaker 2>But when those very same kids were interviewed years later,

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<v Speaker 2>after having been able to produce memories about recent events

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<v Speaker 2>at age three, between the ages of seven and nine,

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<v Speaker 2>many of those memories of early events were lost, and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more were lost by the ages of eight

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<v Speaker 2>and nine than were lost by the age of seven.

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<v Speaker 2>So there appears to be in later childhood kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a period of rapid massive forgetting, where a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>our earliest memories kind of vanish, like memories of a dream.

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<v Speaker 2>So the big question is why is it that many

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<v Speaker 2>of these earliest memories, or what memories exist of earliest events,

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<v Speaker 2>cannot be produced later in life, either later in childhood

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<v Speaker 2>or especially in adulthood. There have been a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>attempts to answer this question. There, of course, is still

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of controversy about it. It is not a

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<v Speaker 2>settled debate. But many of the proposed answers are based

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<v Speaker 2>in the developing structure of the brain. And while I

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<v Speaker 2>think there is absolutely something to these arguments, the neurodevelopmental

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<v Speaker 2>structural arguments, they don't exactly mean that the immature brain

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<v Speaker 2>cannot make memories yet, because again we as we've seen,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes you can get younger children to provide details about

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<v Speaker 2>recent events, and also young children can show examples of learning,

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<v Speaker 2>say learning how to manipulate a simple mechanism in a toy,

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<v Speaker 2>in experiments that show that they do have memories that

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<v Speaker 2>in some cases last for weeks months, even before the

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<v Speaker 2>age of three, so there is some remembering going on. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems to me more likely that what's happening here

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<v Speaker 2>is the memories that the brain makes at age one

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<v Speaker 2>or two are prone to more rapid forgetting than the

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of memories we would make at age eleven or

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<v Speaker 2>twelve or Also, those memories might be different than the

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<v Speaker 2>memories made in later life in a way that makes

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<v Speaker 2>them more difficult to retrieve after we age passed that

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<v Speaker 2>memory horizon. So for the neurodevelopmental structural arguments, we looked

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<v Speaker 2>at one paper in Part two arguing that the hippocampal

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<v Speaker 2>memory system is actually very active in the first few

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<v Speaker 2>years of life. That's the normal memory system. A lot

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<v Speaker 2>is going on there when you're two years old or so.

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<v Speaker 2>But this paper argued that instead of making memories of

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<v Speaker 2>the kind that will be stored for the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>your life, what it's primarily doing with the processing of

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<v Speaker 2>information from experiences is learning how to learn. And complementary

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<v Speaker 2>to this, I think one structural developmental explanation's been offered

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<v Speaker 2>is that a lot of early autobiographical memories may be

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<v Speaker 2>lost due to the rapid rate of neurogenesis during childhood.

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<v Speaker 2>So as new brain cells are formed, especially in the hippocampus,

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<v Speaker 2>this may erode the stability of the structural basis of

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<v Speaker 2>existing memories. So, you know, the hippo campus is developing rapidly.

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<v Speaker 2>You're sort of like you know, rebuilding the house constantly

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<v Speaker 2>in real time, in which case the rooms that existed,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a year ago, might not really exist anymore

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<v Speaker 2>as rooms down the road.

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<v Speaker 1>It's almost heartbreaking to think about that with common memories.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the house is getting bigger. You know, you can

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<v Speaker 2>put more in it, but you're also dismantling as you do.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I guess it's like you're thinking of it

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of the young child. It's like the house

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<v Speaker 1>that is being built is going to be magnificent as well,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's built on the bones of the house that

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<v Speaker 1>came before, So you can't get too sentimental about that

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<v Speaker 1>which is being lost as a necessary part of the

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<v Speaker 1>child's maturing. But I still reserve the right to cry

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, well, if you're recalled. I got interested in

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<v Speaker 2>this whole idea because of a story about my daughter,

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<v Speaker 2>who is actually I said five months last time. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's coming up on six months now, wow, And we

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<v Speaker 2>were trying to figure out Okay, so we've been really

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<v Speaker 2>making her laugh a lot by dropping a cloth on

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<v Speaker 2>her face. She thinks this is hilarious. Just lay her

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<v Speaker 2>down on the blanket and drop the cloth from above

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<v Speaker 2>and we were like, is she going to remember that

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<v Speaker 2>she thought this was funny? Will she be able to

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<v Speaker 2>explain why she thought it was funny when she's older,

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<v Speaker 2>And unfortunately it breaks my heart. I think the answer

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<v Speaker 2>is probably not.

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<v Speaker 1>Still, these are prime years to just kill it as

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<v Speaker 1>a dad standout, so it just keep developing that material.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, so while the while the overall causes of

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<v Speaker 2>childhood amnesia are still being debated in the scientific literature,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very one over that at least one of the

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<v Speaker 2>major causes probably is the neurodevelopmental issue we talked about

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<v Speaker 2>in the last episode, the hippocampus coming online and developing.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, it also seems plausible that it's a phenomenon

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<v Speaker 2>with multiple contributing causes, and maybe some are based not

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<v Speaker 2>just in the physical development of the brain, but possibly

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<v Speaker 2>in some more externally visible developmental milestones, maybe based in

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<v Speaker 2>the environment and things we learn. And so I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>before we move away from this topic, we should explore

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<v Speaker 2>a few of those ideas as well. So another factor

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<v Speaker 2>I've read about linked to childhood amnesia, possibly explaining elements

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<v Speaker 2>of it is language. This seems like an obvious place

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<v Speaker 2>to go. The language and the linguistic environment in which

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<v Speaker 2>a child grows up. What if the extent to which

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<v Speaker 2>we record experiences as memories in the form in which

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<v Speaker 2>they're stored, and our later ability to retrieve and make

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<v Speaker 2>sense of those memories is in some way dependent on language.

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<v Speaker 2>The typical childhood memory horizon tends to come pretty much

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<v Speaker 2>right in the middle of a period of rapid development

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<v Speaker 2>of language skills and the acquisition of vocabulary. So could

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<v Speaker 2>it be that the adult capacity for memory greatly depends

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<v Speaker 2>on the use of words and concepts that we gain

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<v Speaker 2>during this language acquisition period. Could be coincidence, but developing

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<v Speaker 2>skills and manipulating different types of subjects and predicates I

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<v Speaker 2>think could play a role in the onset of autobiographical

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<v Speaker 2>memories that persist over time, because language obviously plays a

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<v Speaker 2>major role in how we as adults remember and tell

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<v Speaker 2>autobiographical memories. Like you ever, notice how when you tell

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<v Speaker 2>a story from memory you often end up using the

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<v Speaker 2>same or similar words to do so. Why is that?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean? Even if so, you can understand how if

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<v Speaker 2>you are, like reporting speech in a memory, you would

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<v Speaker 2>want to use the same words to do so because

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<v Speaker 2>you're reporting what somebody said. But so you're reporting a

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<v Speaker 2>non verbal event, just like a walk you went on

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<v Speaker 2>and things you saw. Very often you use the same

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<v Speaker 2>or similar words to do so, or at least I

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<v Speaker 2>think I do, and most people I notice seem to do.

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<v Speaker 2>Would this be your experience?

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<v Speaker 1>Also, yeah, and I do. It kind of brings me

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<v Speaker 1>back to the topic of Dad stand up comedian, because

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder, like, to a large extent, it's like you

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<v Speaker 1>keep retelling a story more or less the same way

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<v Speaker 1>because you know what's really working, you know, like what, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what makes it more dramatic, what makes it more funny?

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<v Speaker 1>Which you know, how you can frame it in a

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<v Speaker 1>way that also brings to mind, like scenes from movies

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<v Speaker 1>or something. So yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of that going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, it's interesting you bring up the role of

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<v Speaker 2>entertainment and the language used to relate a memory. That'll

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<v Speaker 2>come up again in just a minute. But yeah, so

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<v Speaker 2>I think I would acknowledge that certain types of vocabulary

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<v Speaker 2>might actually make the difference between the ability to coherently

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<v Speaker 2>remember an event and recall it years later versus that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the characteristics that often come up when people

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<v Speaker 2>are describing their very earliest memories, even the ones we've

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<v Speaker 2>heard of from listeners in the email we got after

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<v Speaker 2>the first couple of parts, like the kind of rare, fragmented,

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<v Speaker 2>decontextualized sensory memories that people often produce as their very

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<v Speaker 2>earliest those have a very different character than a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of later memories, and that may it seems to me

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<v Speaker 2>like those differences could correlate with not really having the

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<v Speaker 2>language to organize them as memories at the time they're formed.

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<v Speaker 2>But if language does play an important role in establishing

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<v Speaker 2>the capacity for long term memories about your life, what

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<v Speaker 2>if it's not just conceptual vocabulary. Another way language could

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<v Speaker 2>have some thing to do with memory in early childhood

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<v Speaker 2>is narrative. So when you are asked to explain a

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<v Speaker 2>memory from childhood, for example, you know, what's the first

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<v Speaker 2>time you can remember swimming in the ocean, you could

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<v Speaker 2>say I was in Florida, I was about three, Or

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<v Speaker 2>you could say, well, I was with my mom and

0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>dad and we were in Florida and the sand was white,

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.560
<v Speaker 2>and I remember I saw a crab and it scared me,

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.480
<v Speaker 2>but my dad told me it was safe and the

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.600
<v Speaker 2>crab wouldn't chase me. And then the water was cold.

0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.160
<v Speaker 2>It was colder than the bath, and then saltwater got

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.120
<v Speaker 2>in my nose and I didn't like that at first,

0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.400
<v Speaker 2>but then I did. And then later we went to

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 2>dinner at a restaurant and my dad got steamed crabs,

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.040
<v Speaker 2>and he remembered the crab on the beach and he

0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 2>kept teasing me. He made the crab creep up on

0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 2>me on the table.

0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh, is this an actual memory for you?

0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.079
<v Speaker 2>No, I just made it up, But it seems like

0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:49.560
<v Speaker 2>it could.

0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Be, because I mean, you do have a certain fascination

0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 1>with crabs. So if this were a legitimate memory, perhaps Joe,

0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:01.680
<v Speaker 1>perhaps we were retrieving this memory through the exercise of podcasting.

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 2>This explains everything. It's how I got corm and brain

0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 2>and now it's just leaking out in a made up

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.600
<v Speaker 2>story right here. But no, so, at least in the

0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.920
<v Speaker 2>way you tell stories from childhood, there is a wide

0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>range of stylistic flexibility. You could mention things in a dry,

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 2>informational manner, reporting just where you were and what happened,

0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 2>or you could offer information more in the kind of

0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 2>narrative style that people enjoy and make meaning out of

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.080
<v Speaker 2>when they tell stories to each other. And you could

0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.720
<v Speaker 2>call this distinction sort of reporting versus reminiscing, you know,

0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.920
<v Speaker 2>with the storytelling being more social in nature and more

0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.200
<v Speaker 2>entertainment focused. Honestly, So that comes back to your thing

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 2>about having a certain format of the memory that is

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 2>based around the language you've found is best to express

0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.400
<v Speaker 2>it for entertainment value or for communicating what you're trying

0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:58.080
<v Speaker 2>to get across.

0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. And exaggeration also, I find is also a

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.680
<v Speaker 1>tool you often see employed sometimes, I guess at later

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 1>ages you see it used intentionally, intentionally exaggerating the emotional

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 1>context of an event in order to make a better

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 1>story out of it. Though I've also seen much younger

0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.400
<v Speaker 1>children do that. I remember and this was like a

0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 1>birthday party I took my son to and there's a

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 1>slipping slide. Tensions were running high, I think, and an

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.280
<v Speaker 1>adult went down the slipping slide, and then the birthday

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:38.880
<v Speaker 1>boy exclaimed, this is a disaster, and see'd rather perturbed

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.120
<v Speaker 1>by the whole scenario. I don't know how that experience

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.480
<v Speaker 1>matured or state or it sticks stuck around as a memory,

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.880
<v Speaker 1>but like that kind of exaggeration I can imagine could

0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 1>make it if it was truly viewed as a disaster

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 1>as a catastrophe of a non child going down the

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 1>slip and slide.

0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, just think about yeah, if that child later tells

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>that story, all the different ways that the story could

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 2>be loaded. I mean, it could be loaded with like humor,

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of ironic reflection on how one feels as a child,

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 2>or I don't know, maybe if you mature a certain way,

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 2>you might still take it very seriously and be upset

0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.000
<v Speaker 2>about the slip and slide. But there's all this loading

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.240
<v Speaker 2>in stories that is not just merely reporting the facts

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.600
<v Speaker 2>about an event, but to make the facts reported make

0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.280
<v Speaker 2>sense within some broader story. You might call this having

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the facts contexted. That's how it was expressed in the

0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.520
<v Speaker 2>abstract of a paper I was looking at. But you

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>also make evaluative statements and implications about those facts. So

0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.880
<v Speaker 2>not just why happened, but I felt X about why.

0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 2>And I've read numerous sources alleging that there could be

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.600
<v Speaker 2>a link between the narrative reminiscing style of say the

0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.200
<v Speaker 2>family or the environment in which a child grows up

0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.640
<v Speaker 2>and the age at which those children form lasting memories.

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I was reading about this in one article in the

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Berkeley Greater Good magazine by Gene Shinsky and another article

0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.760
<v Speaker 2>in the BBC from twenty sixteen by Zaria Gorvitt. These

0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 2>were essentially making the link that some researchers think more elaborate,

0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:25.200
<v Speaker 2>coherent narratives could cause children to have memories that last longer.

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.359
<v Speaker 2>In one example was cited in that BBC article. It

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.360
<v Speaker 2>was a paper done by the Cornell University psychology professor

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Chi Wang, who was the author of a paper called

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 2>culture Effects on Adult's Earliest childhood Recollection and Self Description

0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Implications for the Relation between Memory and the Self published

0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.120
<v Speaker 2>in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in two

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.920
<v Speaker 2>thousand and one, and this found that by comparing childhood

0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:58.240
<v Speaker 2>stories told by Chinese and American college students, American students

0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.040
<v Speaker 2>stories tended to be longer, more elaborate, with more self

0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:07.280
<v Speaker 2>focused evaluations, whereas the Chinese stories were more restrained and factual.

0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.520
<v Speaker 2>And also the average earliest memories of the American students

0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.439
<v Speaker 2>were a little bit earlier. And this personally squared with

0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Wong's experience of growing up in China, where she said

0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that the cultural norm was that there was less emphasis

0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 2>on stories of early childhood memories and she gives a

0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.359
<v Speaker 2>quote to the BBC saying, if society is telling you

0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.560
<v Speaker 2>those memories are important to you, you'll hold on to them.

0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.719
<v Speaker 2>And this also relates to cross cultural studies saying that

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.399
<v Speaker 2>some of the examples of the people on average the

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 2>earliest childhood memories tend to be people of the Maori culture,

0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.399
<v Speaker 2>and these same studies find that Maori families tend to

0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.399
<v Speaker 2>place a lot of emphasis on elaborate narrative storytelling in

0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the past. So I thought this was interesting that this

0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.520
<v Speaker 2>could connect to some of the differences we've already read

0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.320
<v Speaker 2>about and I think talked about in the first episode

0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>about cross culture differences in the age of the earliest memories,

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and also gender differences, because there have been some studies

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:12.399
<v Speaker 2>showing that girls tend to have slightly earlier memories on

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 2>average than boys, and that girls in childhood tend to

0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:22.240
<v Speaker 2>relate stories in a more contexted and evaluative manner. But

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 2>whatever the particulars of how it works, it's certainly not

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.960
<v Speaker 2>hard for me to imagine that the storytelling environment in

0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.760
<v Speaker 2>which you grow up plays a large role on what

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and how you remember things from your earliest childhood.

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:41.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating, and something also Just to keep

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.240
<v Speaker 1>in mind too, that I remember one of the sources

0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.600
<v Speaker 1>I quoted in maybe the first episode mentioned, and that

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.520
<v Speaker 1>is that there's no right or wrong way. Like earlier

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 1>memories of childhood versus later memories, neither one is healthier

0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 1>or more correct. The brain remembers what it needs to remember.

0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Right and while playing on that, one way to interpret

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.760
<v Speaker 2>these findings, if they are correct, is that maybe by

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:11.360
<v Speaker 2>inhabiting an environment where there is a lot of elaborate

0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.920
<v Speaker 2>narrative storytelling that involves a lot of contexting of events

0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:21.200
<v Speaker 2>and including evaluations, that is an environment that tells the

0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.280
<v Speaker 2>child that they need to remember things in that manner

0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.399
<v Speaker 2>and thus makes them easier to retrieve and relate later on.

0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.159
<v Speaker 2>Of course, the interesting thing being that again this is

0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 2>all coming back to autobiographical memories, the kind of memories

0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.520
<v Speaker 2>for events in your life that, like you can later

0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:43.160
<v Speaker 2>retell as stories. And this doesn't necessarily correspond to other

0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.160
<v Speaker 2>types of memory, like say, memory of how to do something,

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, memories that we often think of not as

0:20:50.800 --> 0:21:03.440
<v Speaker 2>quote memory but as learning. All right, So, the language

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.160
<v Speaker 2>based memory development idea has been around for a long

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.040
<v Speaker 2>time and it has its proponents, though I think also

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.240
<v Speaker 2>it has its critics, and I don't think we should

0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.280
<v Speaker 2>place too much emphasis on things like the role of language,

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 2>because one big reason here is that some analogs to

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:26.280
<v Speaker 2>infantile amnesia have been discovered in animals like rats. You know,

0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.040
<v Speaker 2>so there are rat experiments showing kind of similar patterns

0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.360
<v Speaker 2>of forgetting of the earliest experiences as rats age into adulthood.

0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Rats of course never acquire language, but show some similar patterns.

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.440
<v Speaker 2>So it's clear that language is not the deciding factor,

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 2>but may play a role in, say, the timing of

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.080
<v Speaker 2>different stages of memory acquisition. Another older idea that might

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.200
<v Speaker 2>still have something to do with childhood amnesia what about

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:58.919
<v Speaker 2>the role of what researchers have called the cognitive self.

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I was reading about this in a paper called on

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>Resolving the Enigma of Infantile Amnesia by Mark Howe and

0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Mary Courage published in Psychological Bulletin in nineteen ninety three,

0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.320
<v Speaker 2>and they discussed the idea of what if the crucial

0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.320
<v Speaker 2>factor in the establishment of lasting autobiographical memories is the

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.040
<v Speaker 2>development of the concept of I and me, related in

0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.320
<v Speaker 2>a way to the concept of theory of mind, understanding

0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 2>that your mind is different from the minds of others,

0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>that you know things other people don't know, and have

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.440
<v Speaker 2>thoughts and feelings other people don't have, and that they

0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.320
<v Speaker 2>likewise know things and have thoughts and feelings that you

0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:37.400
<v Speaker 2>cannot share in unless they tell you. Under this proposal,

0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not until we have mastered the concept of a

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.840
<v Speaker 2>self different from others that we're able to organize our

0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 2>memories into a sensical form that can be retrieved across time.

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 2>How encourage right in their conclusion quote. A series of

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.360
<v Speaker 2>significant developmental events take place when infants are between eighteen

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 2>and thirty months of age that prepare them to talk

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:06.720
<v Speaker 2>about personally experienced events. First, at about eighteen months of age,

0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.800
<v Speaker 2>infants learned to recognize their features in the mirror. The

0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:13.000
<v Speaker 2>next acquisition is a more advanced representation of the self,

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.560
<v Speaker 2>reflected in the pronomial reference to the self as I

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.560
<v Speaker 2>and me. In the early months of the second year, Finally,

0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the child learns to talk about immediate and then more

0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:27.680
<v Speaker 2>distant past events in narrative the language of autobiographical memory.

0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Both narrative and autobiographical memory continue to develop in structure, organization,

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.240
<v Speaker 2>and content over the preschool years, but by that time

0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.720
<v Speaker 2>infantile amnesia is indeed a phenomenon of the past. And

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.960
<v Speaker 2>so this one's a little bit different because this one

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.200
<v Speaker 2>does not depend while it's related to language, their idea

0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:50.159
<v Speaker 2>of the concept of the cognitive self does not rely

0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:53.199
<v Speaker 2>entirely on language, and they think there are ways that

0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the cognitive self can be demonstrated before a child acquires

0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.360
<v Speaker 2>the words in which to express it. But they they

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 2>think that the child needs a concept of self and

0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I separate from the world and the events in the

0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:10.119
<v Speaker 2>world in order to put the memories into a form

0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.480
<v Speaker 2>that can later be accessed and expressed.

0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because it sounds like without that,

0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.439
<v Speaker 1>there's no there's no like weight, there's no structure. It's

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:25.480
<v Speaker 1>just like memories of potentially of just environments and in

0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:29.399
<v Speaker 1>groups of people, without the actual connection of like this

0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 1>that this is a value because I am at the

0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:32.199
<v Speaker 1>center of it.

0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:35.880
<v Speaker 2>That's right, And that would connect again to the ideas

0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:40.320
<v Speaker 2>about narrative and maybe the important role of say, evaluative

0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:45.000
<v Speaker 2>statements about memories helping us to be able to recall

0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:45.520
<v Speaker 2>them later.

0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The child is yeah, oh sorry, Yeah, the child

0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 1>is like, it's nice, but what is in it for me? Yeah?

0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:53.520
<v Speaker 1>I remember it.

0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.840
<v Speaker 2>So in the end, when I'm looking at all these explanations,

0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:59.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Of course, I'm you know, I'm not

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:03.840
<v Speaker 2>a neuros scientist or a developmental psychologist, so I don't

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:06.800
<v Speaker 2>pretend to be expressing expertise on this, but I just say, personally,

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I feel pretty convinced by the neurodevelopmental arguments, the ones

0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:15.400
<v Speaker 2>about the development of the hippocampal memory system, that there's

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 2>clearly some kind of like structural change going on in

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 2>the brain in the early years of life, and this

0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:26.440
<v Speaker 2>this plays a major role in why we don't retain

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.120
<v Speaker 2>all these memories until later life. As far as these

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:34.679
<v Speaker 2>explanations based in language and the cognitive self and stuff,

0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. It seems like the evidence for them

0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:42.400
<v Speaker 2>is a little bit softer, but I'm very interested in them,

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:46.120
<v Speaker 2>and they seem plausible to me at least. M yeah, yeah,

0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:48.480
<v Speaker 2>But basically, all the papers I read on this subject,

0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:51.520
<v Speaker 2>or you know the old cliche, they're calling for more research,

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.879
<v Speaker 2>like you know, widely acknowledging this is not a settled question,

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:57.760
<v Speaker 2>and so you know that we have some interesting ideas,

0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>but ultimately we don't know for sure. Childhood amnesia happens,

0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and maybe more research could help settle it.

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:08.119
<v Speaker 1>Now, we've discussed false memories a good bit in these episodes,

0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:12.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, talking about very early childhood memories that are

0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 1>to some degree falsified unaugmented, and you know, I think

0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 1>it's easy to mostly focus on the potential pitfalls of

0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 1>false memories or to land somewhere on sort of like

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.960
<v Speaker 1>the neutral impact that they may have. But I also

0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:31.919
<v Speaker 1>wanted to tackle the question of just like why is

0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:35.480
<v Speaker 1>it also advantageous to have false memories? Like why would

0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:38.600
<v Speaker 1>this it all be adaptive? Is there an upside to

0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:41.280
<v Speaker 1>this mental ability? Or is this just kind of junk?

0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Is this just kind of a byproduct of the way

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:44.440
<v Speaker 1>that our brains have developed.

0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:47.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say that this is not the only

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.679
<v Speaker 2>way in which our brains consistently generate false beliefs. And

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.480
<v Speaker 2>I think when our brains do that, they're usually doing

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 2>it for a reason.

0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and yeah, certainly this ties into larger issues

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:03.200
<v Speaker 1>of how we falsify beliefs, how we falsify memories, how

0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:08.280
<v Speaker 1>we obsess over perhaps impractical ideas of what the future

0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:12.960
<v Speaker 1>might hold. You know, I'm reminded of a couple of

0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.520
<v Speaker 1>quotes here. I believe it was Alan Rogerley who commented

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:20.639
<v Speaker 1>that he may have been quoting somebody else actually, that

0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:27.040
<v Speaker 1>repetition and recollection are the same force, but in different directions.

0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:32.439
<v Speaker 1>I remember too, I think our Scott Baker commenting that

0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.080
<v Speaker 1>science fiction and fantasy kind of both fulfill the same purpose,

0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:38.400
<v Speaker 1>but going either into the past or into the future,

0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:43.520
<v Speaker 1>sort of constructing an unrealistic but far fetched version of

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:45.479
<v Speaker 1>the future based on where we are now, and then

0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:47.439
<v Speaker 1>the other is a version of the past that is

0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:53.199
<v Speaker 1>equally fantastic and illogical and obviously not true, but telling

0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:56.000
<v Speaker 1>about where we are in the present. So you know,

0:27:56.000 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 1>we're these strange creatures that see ourselves as occupying this space,

0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:07.200
<v Speaker 1>this now, and remembering what came before, predicting what is

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.680
<v Speaker 1>about to come. And then it's kind of open to

0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:12.560
<v Speaker 1>discussion if there is actually a now point, like are

0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:15.639
<v Speaker 1>we actually there? Or is that also a construction of

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the past. But any rate, I wanted to see what

0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:23.679
<v Speaker 1>experts were saying about this, so I was reading a

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.000
<v Speaker 1>paper titled false Memories, What the Hell Are They For?

0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:30.040
<v Speaker 1>By Aaron J. Newman and D. Stephen Lindsay published in

0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Applied Cognitive Psychology Back in two thousand and nine, and

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.600
<v Speaker 1>I thought the author's made some good points here, and

0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:39.920
<v Speaker 1>a number of these are going to be things that

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, we've discussed on the show before, or I

0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:46.400
<v Speaker 1>guess generally understood about memory in the brain. But first

0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:48.560
<v Speaker 1>of all, this is all part of mental our mental

0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.680
<v Speaker 1>time travel abilities that enable us to experience our memories

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:54.640
<v Speaker 1>of the past with a feeling of subjective clarity, while

0:28:54.680 --> 0:28:59.880
<v Speaker 1>also enabling us to produce mental models of potential futures. Quote.

0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Recalling an autobiographical experience involves piecing together activated memorial information

0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 1>while at the same time making inferences based on other

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:15.280
<v Speaker 1>information available to us. Biases, stereotypes, and expectations that act

0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 1>on our current thinking also act on inferences that we

0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:22.720
<v Speaker 1>make about mental events arising from the past. So obviously,

0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:26.480
<v Speaker 1>given this system, failures are inevitable. Memory failures are inevitable

0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:31.280
<v Speaker 1>false memories, along with inaccurate or unlikely ruminated scenarios of

0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:34.920
<v Speaker 1>the future. This is all just part of living with

0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 1>our human understanding of reality, and so various methods can

0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.480
<v Speaker 1>be used and have been studied to produce false memories

0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:48.080
<v Speaker 1>of events. The authors point out these include suggestion via imagination, exercises,

0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:54.120
<v Speaker 1>the use of photographs, dream interpretation, guided imagery, and paraphrasing.

0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, even this kind of joking example that we

0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.400
<v Speaker 1>busted out earlier, of you bringing up a hypo ethical,

0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:04.840
<v Speaker 1>entirely made up memory of childhood about crabs, and it

0:30:04.880 --> 0:30:08.360
<v Speaker 1>was so loaded with crabs. It's a relatively easy exercise

0:30:08.800 --> 0:30:11.600
<v Speaker 1>for one to then turn that back on the person

0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 1>who created and saying, well, is that completely made up?

0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:16.560
<v Speaker 1>What does that say about you? Why did you bring

0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 1>up the crabs so many times? You know? And you

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:20.560
<v Speaker 1>can begin to build on that.

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, And if you took that same story and said, hey,

0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:26.520
<v Speaker 2>you know your parents told us the story about when

0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:28.080
<v Speaker 2>you went to the beach when you were little. Do

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:32.240
<v Speaker 2>you remember this? Well, you might not necessarily at first,

0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:34.480
<v Speaker 2>or you might think, well, maybe I do, And then

0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:38.120
<v Speaker 2>over time that could very easily turn into what feels

0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:39.680
<v Speaker 2>like a real memory for you.

0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it also Now, there are a number of

0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.959
<v Speaker 1>factors to keep in mind too. It's worth noting that

0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>the results and experiments involving the creation or the fostering

0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:55.320
<v Speaker 1>of false recollections it depends on the degree to which

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.960
<v Speaker 1>a memory is falsified. For example, in many of these experiments,

0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:02.200
<v Speaker 1>you'll find examples where they'll find out about an actual

0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:04.920
<v Speaker 1>childhood memory, like they would in this case, say talk

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:07.200
<v Speaker 1>to one of your parents and ask about your earliest

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 1>speech encounter and then use that in the construction of

0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:15.080
<v Speaker 1>a false memory. And then you also have to take

0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 1>into account the weight of the memory that is being

0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:23.240
<v Speaker 1>built up or augmented. So it's one thing, for example,

0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 1>for me to suggest, yeah, maybe you were really fascinated

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 1>by crabs like you like you were in this false

0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:32.720
<v Speaker 1>story of childhood. It's another to say, you know, maybe

0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:34.840
<v Speaker 1>that they had a you know, just you were profoundly

0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:37.440
<v Speaker 1>frightened by the crabs and this like totally shaped to you.

0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:39.160
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's like how how much weight are you

0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:42.200
<v Speaker 1>putting on the memory? For instance, one study referenced in

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:47.080
<v Speaker 1>this paper had high results of memory inception when you

0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:50.880
<v Speaker 1>were trying to get them to remember a childhood prank. Now,

0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:54.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, nothing too severe, but you know something that

0:31:54.160 --> 0:31:56.480
<v Speaker 1>where it's not going to like shake the core of

0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 1>their being or really mess around too many understandings of stuff.

0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Is just like, let's generate this memory of this prank

0:32:04.200 --> 0:32:06.040
<v Speaker 1>that probably didn't actually occur.

0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So if I'm understanding, right, this might imply it's

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:14.800
<v Speaker 2>easier to generate a false memory for an event that

0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:18.239
<v Speaker 2>is not really like, does not shake the core of

0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:21.680
<v Speaker 2>your what how you would characterize your childhood, but rather

0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:25.240
<v Speaker 2>for a kind of like weird, quirky, funny little event

0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.600
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't really change anything about your life.

0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:30.959
<v Speaker 1>Right. And of course, a lot of the very sorts

0:32:31.080 --> 0:32:34.160
<v Speaker 1>of memories, early childhood memories that we've been discussing here,

0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 1>the kind that are sort of shared among family, are

0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.840
<v Speaker 1>exactly the sort of memory you know. They're not necessarily

0:32:39.880 --> 0:32:44.240
<v Speaker 1>profound or anything. They're amusing, they're fun, and therefore it's

0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:48.280
<v Speaker 1>easy to grab onto it now. The authors also point

0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 1>out that social factors such as group membership in the

0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 1>media as well can seemingly influence memories like this as

0:32:55.640 --> 0:33:01.440
<v Speaker 1>well quote socially driven distortions in memory these and they

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 1>have several benefits for the individuals, such as improving social

0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>relationships within a group, or they may improve social group coherence.

0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:15.840
<v Speaker 1>So false memories can be self enhancing in many ways,

0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:19.000
<v Speaker 1>but they can also be group enhancing. And in this

0:33:19.080 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 1>we're getting we're speaking broadly beyond merely like childhood memories,

0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 1>but even getting into things where say you were a

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:29.160
<v Speaker 1>part of a group, you join a group where memories

0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:34.240
<v Speaker 1>of say even paranormal experiences have value. They bring you

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:36.800
<v Speaker 1>closer to the people in a group, or they enhance

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:40.640
<v Speaker 1>the overall connectivity of the group.

0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:43.560
<v Speaker 2>This is exactly what I was going to hypothesize earlier

0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:45.880
<v Speaker 2>when you were talking about so I brought up you know,

0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>there are other ways that our brain consistently produces false beliefs,

0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 2>and there you would suspect that there's probably an adaptive

0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:57.520
<v Speaker 2>reason for doing that, like there's survival benefit, that's why

0:33:57.560 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>our brains work that way. And my guess was going

0:33:59.880 --> 0:34:04.000
<v Speaker 2>to be social function there that the same way that

0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:08.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, we can have not false memories, but false

0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:14.719
<v Speaker 2>beliefs about the external world. These can easily be induced

0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:19.560
<v Speaker 2>through a concept known as identity protective cognition. You know,

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>people will reason in ways that are not strictly logical

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:27.560
<v Speaker 2>and will come to conclusions that they would find to

0:34:27.600 --> 0:34:30.520
<v Speaker 2>be false if they were disinterested in the issue, but

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:35.240
<v Speaker 2>there is some social identity reason for coming to that belief.

0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:38.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, in order to fit in with my social group,

0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I need to be the kind of person that believes X.

0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:44.520
<v Speaker 2>So Actually I do believe X, and it is right,

0:34:45.160 --> 0:34:48.799
<v Speaker 2>And I think the same could easily be true of memories.

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:52.600
<v Speaker 2>It probably matters more for your survival that you're getting

0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:55.320
<v Speaker 2>along good with your group than that, like, you actually

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 2>remembered what happened last Tuesday a year ago correctly. So

0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 2>if there's a way to remember that event incorrectly, but

0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:05.120
<v Speaker 2>that would be sort of like fun to share as

0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>a group together, to tell that story and all bond

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:10.520
<v Speaker 2>and all feel good about each other, well then maybe

0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:11.319
<v Speaker 2>you'll go that way.

0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And I mean all this makes sense, I

0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:18.120
<v Speaker 1>think because of course humans are highly social creatures. We've

0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:21.120
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about this before. This has had an enormous

0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.680
<v Speaker 1>impact on the human animal. So is it any surprise

0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:27.680
<v Speaker 1>that we help each other remember events of our past.

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Is it any surprise that these memories may be distorted

0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:34.160
<v Speaker 1>for the betterment of one's own integration with a group

0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.360
<v Speaker 1>or the overall coherence of the group. Because for the

0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:40.319
<v Speaker 1>social animal, the group is it's not just nice to

0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:44.080
<v Speaker 1>have like the group is survival. Being able to bond

0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:49.120
<v Speaker 1>with the group has has a real adaptive advantage and

0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:52.520
<v Speaker 1>may and being able to fit in even if you're

0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:56.839
<v Speaker 1>distorting the actual occurrence of events in the past. This

0:35:56.920 --> 0:36:00.279
<v Speaker 1>may frequently outweigh the value of objective reality.

0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:03.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's better if all your friends are laughing about, Hey,

0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:06.239
<v Speaker 2>you remember that time, Johnny, I don't know, Yeah, chase

0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:09.319
<v Speaker 2>me with esteamed crab and you don't really remember that.

0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:12.040
<v Speaker 2>It's probably better for your brain to convince you you

0:36:12.080 --> 0:36:14.640
<v Speaker 2>do remember that, so you can laugh along with everybody

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:17.000
<v Speaker 2>else than to say, like, no, I don't think that happened.

0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But again, these are generalizations, so you know, individual

0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:24.360
<v Speaker 1>experience is gonna is going to differ, and they are

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:26.520
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of caveats that can come into play. But yeah,

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 1>I think this is fascinating to think about now. In

0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:40.759
<v Speaker 1>I think both of the last couple of episodes, we

0:36:40.800 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 1>talked a little bit about myth babies and legendary babies

0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:49.520
<v Speaker 1>of history, child Hercules, child Jesus, child Christian, and so forth.

0:36:50.560 --> 0:36:52.680
<v Speaker 1>So I do have just a little bit more on this,

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:56.880
<v Speaker 1>getting into the idea of the child hero and the

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:57.720
<v Speaker 1>child saint.

0:36:58.040 --> 0:37:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're gonna do another super baby sidebar here.

0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:03.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and this one, this one is going to end

0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:07.920
<v Speaker 1>up bringing up child mortality again. So my apologies. It

0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.160
<v Speaker 1>was not my intent to discuss this more, but in

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.160
<v Speaker 1>just diving into the topic it becomes an essential part

0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:19.799
<v Speaker 1>of understanding some of these traditions. Okay, so first of all,

0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:24.560
<v Speaker 1>just talking about infant heroes in Greek tradition. One paper

0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I was looking at here is Baby and Child Heroes

0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:31.759
<v Speaker 1>in Ancient Greece by Kareem and Dina Pash. And when

0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:34.680
<v Speaker 1>it comes to the child hero proper and not merely

0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:37.640
<v Speaker 1>the infant form of adult heroes, so not just merely

0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:41.640
<v Speaker 1>baby hercules, but like a child hero that is a

0:37:41.680 --> 0:37:44.719
<v Speaker 1>hero in and of itself. They are defined not by

0:37:44.760 --> 0:37:48.719
<v Speaker 1>their actions and exploits, as with adult heroes, but by

0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:53.120
<v Speaker 1>their untimely deaths, which immortalize them as in hero cults.

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:56.360
<v Speaker 1>And these include such examples as the children of Medea

0:37:56.840 --> 0:38:02.000
<v Speaker 1>and the children of Heracles. To quote Pash here quote

0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.520
<v Speaker 1>from parental fears and sense of guilt arise. The stories,

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:10.720
<v Speaker 1>songs and sanctuaries honoring child heroes, both myth and ritual,

0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.719
<v Speaker 1>articulate these very basic human anxieties. Yet the emphasis is

0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.239
<v Speaker 1>ultimately on the beauty that transcends the gruesomeness of these

0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:22.360
<v Speaker 1>narratives and transforms dread into poetry. I think this is

0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:24.600
<v Speaker 1>also interesting to consider when you look at the long

0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:28.359
<v Speaker 1>list of child saints in the Christian tradition, and these

0:38:28.400 --> 0:38:31.280
<v Speaker 1>include both martyred children and adults, as well as children

0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:33.640
<v Speaker 1>who died at a young age, but were said to

0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:38.480
<v Speaker 1>have been very mature, very holy in their young life

0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:40.680
<v Speaker 1>in a way that it's almost like they were too

0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:43.760
<v Speaker 1>holy for this world and therefore could not remain here.

0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:48.600
<v Speaker 1>So just a couple of examples to illustrate both of

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:53.719
<v Speaker 1>these categories. There's Saint Rumwald of Buckingham from the year

0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:57.880
<v Speaker 1>six sixty two, said to have lived only for three days,

0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:00.960
<v Speaker 1>but the child was said to be able to speak

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 1>and profess his faith right away. In fact, it's, according

0:39:05.040 --> 0:39:08.080
<v Speaker 1>to the legend, requested his own baptism and even delivered

0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:08.560
<v Speaker 1>a sermon.

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>He requested it, But did he get it?

0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Did they baptiste? Yeah, I believe that's part of the story.

0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:16.040
<v Speaker 1>You got the baptism and then got to deliver a sermon,

0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:20.440
<v Speaker 1>which you know is a comical image in some in

0:39:20.480 --> 0:39:23.120
<v Speaker 1>some ways, but also you understand where the like the

0:39:23.239 --> 0:39:25.840
<v Speaker 1>creative energy of this comes from, like the idea of

0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:30.359
<v Speaker 1>like a child and the and the attachment we feel

0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.840
<v Speaker 1>to a child, the perfection and yet imperfection of a child,

0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:36.440
<v Speaker 1>and then if there is, and then when you factor

0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 1>in these various faith models of how salvation is supposed

0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:43.040
<v Speaker 1>to work, if you you factor in just the trauma

0:39:43.120 --> 0:39:45.880
<v Speaker 1>of losing a young child, you can see where stories

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.120
<v Speaker 1>like this could be created. And then, of course you

0:39:49.160 --> 0:39:54.400
<v Speaker 1>also have examples of martyrs. Uh. There is a secarius

0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:57.920
<v Speaker 1>of Bethlehem said to have been killed in King Herod's

0:39:57.920 --> 0:40:00.720
<v Speaker 1>massacre of the innocent somewhere between seven and two BCE.

0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.040
<v Speaker 1>The alleged remains of the child are still held as

0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.800
<v Speaker 1>holy relics today. So in these cases, you know, the

0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:10.879
<v Speaker 1>child is not my understanding, at least in this case.

0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:13.640
<v Speaker 1>And this may vary from telling to telling. A case

0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:17.239
<v Speaker 1>where the child itself is not said to have been

0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:21.640
<v Speaker 1>holy or done anything holy, but was victim of some

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:25.279
<v Speaker 1>or allegedly the victim of some sort of heinous act.

0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd lean on allegedly on that one, because I

0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:31.120
<v Speaker 2>think the story of the slaughter of the innocence, from

0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:33.960
<v Speaker 2>what I recall, is largely considered to be legendary.

0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's And of course it's very notable that some

0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:42.280
<v Speaker 1>of the more notorious examples of child martyrs were utilized

0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:46.279
<v Speaker 1>in cases of blood libel against Jewish communities. Hugh of

0:40:46.320 --> 0:40:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Lincoln in the thirteenth century and Simon Trent in the

0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:51.960
<v Speaker 1>fifteenth century, ving two prime examples. And these are sadly

0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:55.200
<v Speaker 1>not the only examples. You can pull out cases where

0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:58.360
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the alleged murder of a child was

0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:02.920
<v Speaker 1>then used as an excuse for acts of violence against

0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:07.600
<v Speaker 1>communities that were blamed with that to death. So obviously

0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:09.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of a depressing place, I know, to wind up

0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:11.920
<v Speaker 1>in this tangent, and I didn't really again, didn't really

0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:14.640
<v Speaker 1>want to discuss dead children again, but I guess it's unavoidable.

0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, why does a child stand out in a

0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:20.160
<v Speaker 1>mythic narrative. It may be about who that child will become,

0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:23.040
<v Speaker 1>but there's also a weight to the child that does

0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:26.680
<v Speaker 1>not pass on into mythic adulthood, you know. And it

0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:29.279
<v Speaker 1>can be clearly be leveraged in different ways as a

0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:33.080
<v Speaker 1>rallying cry of martyrdom, as an inspiration of innocence, as

0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:37.200
<v Speaker 1>an inspiration for violence and horror. You know, it can

0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 1>be the kind of narrative that can circumvent the cruelty

0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:43.400
<v Speaker 1>of the world or inspire more cruelty there's you know

0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:45.920
<v Speaker 1>you can you can go in various directions with it. Now,

0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:48.640
<v Speaker 1>one final thing I wanted to discuss you a little bit,

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:50.400
<v Speaker 1>and I think we alluded to it a little bit

0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:53.160
<v Speaker 1>earlier in this episode, is that you know. As we've

0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:57.440
<v Speaker 1>discussed already, there are numerous examples of suggested falsified memories

0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:01.040
<v Speaker 1>to turn to, including memories of various pair normal encounters,

0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:03.839
<v Speaker 1>different forms of abuse, and indeed we can also throw

0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:07.120
<v Speaker 1>supposed memories of past lives into the mix. You know

0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 1>you can, You'll have you. You can certainly find people

0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:14.439
<v Speaker 1>who claim to remember very early childhood, people who claim

0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:17.239
<v Speaker 1>to remember their birth, but also people who claim to

0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:20.880
<v Speaker 1>remember a time before their birth, before they were born,

0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:24.960
<v Speaker 1>either in the womb or before the womb, in another

0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:28.520
<v Speaker 1>life before the womb. And you know, so you know

0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:31.080
<v Speaker 1>it's uh. This again speaks to the power of our

0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:36.200
<v Speaker 1>ability to create and falsify meaningful memories. And it's not

0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:38.000
<v Speaker 1>too big of a leap, right, If you can already

0:42:38.040 --> 0:42:39.920
<v Speaker 1>create a memory of a thing that didn't occur, it's

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:42.200
<v Speaker 1>not too much of a leap to remember supposed lives

0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 1>before this one as well, right, And there's a lot

0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:48.880
<v Speaker 1>of individuals have written on this and theorized on this

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:53.560
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing. Check. Psychiatrist Stanislav Groff theorized that some

0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:57.799
<v Speaker 1>near death experiences are actually a kind of channeling of

0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:01.440
<v Speaker 1>birth memories, with the so called model of light representing

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:05.800
<v Speaker 1>the birth canal. This is skeptical about that, Yes, yeah,

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:09.440
<v Speaker 1>this is you know, very everyone has a right to

0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:12.360
<v Speaker 1>be very skeptical of this. I've seen it refuted by

0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:15.880
<v Speaker 1>skeptics on a number of grounds, including that the experience

0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:18.560
<v Speaker 1>of being born would not look like this even if

0:43:18.600 --> 0:43:20.960
<v Speaker 1>your infant head were in the right position and your

0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:23.480
<v Speaker 1>eyes were actually open, and again you were capable of

0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:28.520
<v Speaker 1>forming memories like this. So I think there's very strong

0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:32.760
<v Speaker 1>reasons to be skeptical of this being an actual memory.

0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:34.920
<v Speaker 1>But like we've said, you get in there and you

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:37.279
<v Speaker 1>start tinkering with your memories, start recalling them. You start

0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 1>bringing in content you know from different communities and learned individuals.

0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.880
<v Speaker 1>You can start augmenting things, you can start falsifying things,

0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:49.160
<v Speaker 1>and what you end up with can still be highly meaningful.

0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:51.560
<v Speaker 1>It can still you know, to you. It can also

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:56.760
<v Speaker 1>have an impact on the creation of art and literature.

0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:02.560
<v Speaker 1>If the name Stanislovgrov sounds familiar longtime listeners might remember

0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:04.560
<v Speaker 1>it coming up in an episode that Christian and I

0:44:04.600 --> 0:44:08.680
<v Speaker 1>did on the art of hr Giger, because these very metaphors,

0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, the tunnel of light, near death, and pre birth,

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.600
<v Speaker 1>these were explored in some of Giger's art work, and

0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Groff actually authored a twenty eighteen book of Giger's work

0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:23.280
<v Speaker 1>titled hr Giger and the Zeitgeist of the Twentieth Century. Groff,

0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:26.200
<v Speaker 1>by the way, was also a technical advisor on Douglas

0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Trumbull's nineteen eighty three film Brainstorm that had Christopher Walkin

0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.279
<v Speaker 1>in it. I believe so again not to say that

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:37.319
<v Speaker 1>these can't be potent ideas, but they do seem to

0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 1>stand outside of science there. You know, these are more

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.720
<v Speaker 1>We're getting more into the area of religion and myth

0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:47.920
<v Speaker 1>and even the paranormal. But I think it all speaks

0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:50.400
<v Speaker 1>to just how invested we can become in the story

0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:53.759
<v Speaker 1>of us and those vast blank spaces in our recollection,

0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:56.480
<v Speaker 1>as you know, as well as any glimmers that we

0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.520
<v Speaker 1>might sense in the dark that we could then augment

0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:02.880
<v Speaker 1>and sentuate into something else, something that is meaningful to

0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:07.000
<v Speaker 1>us or makes us feel part of a group. Et cetera.

0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:10.160
<v Speaker 1>And you know, there are examples of this line of

0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:13.640
<v Speaker 1>thinking from outside of science, concepts of pre existence in

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:18.480
<v Speaker 1>various cultures. There's the concept of reincarnation or the transmigration

0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:21.640
<v Speaker 1>of the soul, and we see this in various traditions,

0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Greek traditions, early Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, medieval Jewish mysticism, new

0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.440
<v Speaker 1>religious movements, and so many more examples.

0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:32.680
<v Speaker 2>There were some early Christians who believed in reincarnation.

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:35.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I was reading a little bit about this,

0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:37.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, the idea of a pre mortal existence of

0:45:37.719 --> 0:45:42.240
<v Speaker 1>the soul. Various strains of thought concerning that not only

0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:45.160
<v Speaker 1>the idea that the human soul was was pre had

0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:48.120
<v Speaker 1>a pre existence, that it was say, created before the

0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:51.200
<v Speaker 1>physical creation of the universe. And I guess you know,

0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:55.160
<v Speaker 1>the souls are just setting around waiting to be installed

0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:57.880
<v Speaker 1>in a physical form. And then there is also a

0:45:57.880 --> 0:45:59.920
<v Speaker 1>fair amount of thought about the idea of the pre

0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:04.040
<v Speaker 1>existence of Jesus, of Jesus Christ, the idea that yes,

0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:06.600
<v Speaker 1>God is going to take on this sort of mortal

0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:09.279
<v Speaker 1>incarnation because he has to go to earth and die

0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:13.080
<v Speaker 1>for everyone sins and so forth. But then there are

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:15.040
<v Speaker 1>there are these some lines of thought that are like, okay,

0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:17.800
<v Speaker 1>well what was he doing before then? And I guess

0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:19.600
<v Speaker 1>on one hand, you could say, well, he just had

0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:22.080
<v Speaker 1>God had not incarnated yet, so it's like he hadn't

0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:24.960
<v Speaker 1>butted off into a physical form. But then there are

0:46:24.960 --> 0:46:26.400
<v Speaker 1>these other lines of thought it's like, oh, yeah, no,

0:46:26.480 --> 0:46:28.920
<v Speaker 1>he's there, he's just setting around waiting, but he just

0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:32.680
<v Speaker 1>hasn't gone to earth yet. For example, I was reading

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.360
<v Speaker 1>that there was one early Christian theologian I believe this

0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.239
<v Speaker 1>is origin of I'll think of Alexandria, I lived at

0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:42.120
<v Speaker 1>one through two fifty three, taught that human souls existed

0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:45.040
<v Speaker 1>for before creation, and this was something that he would

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:48.520
<v Speaker 1>later be accused of heresy for. But yeah, I don't know.

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:50.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think the big take home from all

0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:53.400
<v Speaker 1>of this is that we have an impressive ability to

0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:56.680
<v Speaker 1>create meaningful memories out of various sources that are not

0:46:56.800 --> 0:46:59.840
<v Speaker 1>pure recollection to the limited extent that there is purely

0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:03.919
<v Speaker 1>recollection of anything. And you know, I guess I don't

0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:07.480
<v Speaker 1>think there's anything intrinsically wrong with fostering memories of infancy,

0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.200
<v Speaker 1>birth or life before birth, so long as it improves

0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:12.920
<v Speaker 1>one's quality of life, and it doesn't take anything away

0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:15.839
<v Speaker 1>from you or others. You know. If that's the case,

0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:16.799
<v Speaker 1>then what's the harm in it?

0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:19.960
<v Speaker 2>I think the way I'd put my feeling is reminisce

0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and enjoy your memories, but also be aware of the

0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:28.279
<v Speaker 2>fact that some of them may not have a factual basis.

0:47:28.760 --> 0:47:31.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. When I was thinking about this, I was

0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:33.880
<v Speaker 1>trying to think, well, how could it be harmful? And

0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:36.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that the main sticking point that I could

0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:41.040
<v Speaker 1>come up with is if one's claims of false memories

0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.359
<v Speaker 1>could embolden harmful models and others. So this is just

0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:48.439
<v Speaker 1>a purely hypothetical scenario. But imagine that you, through one

0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:51.720
<v Speaker 1>method or another, we've discussed your fostered memory of alien

0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:55.520
<v Speaker 1>abduction that for you is awe inspiring and beneficial. Like

0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:58.000
<v Speaker 1>I remember seeing aliens when I was a child, and

0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:00.360
<v Speaker 1>isn't that great? I you know, this this is my

0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:06.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, brain expanding cosmost appreciating moment. But what if

0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:10.160
<v Speaker 1>your pronounced belief in these experiences enable someone else to

0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:13.560
<v Speaker 1>further engage in a harmful variation on it? Or on

0:48:13.560 --> 0:48:15.960
<v Speaker 1>the other hand, what if here's another scenario, what if

0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:21.280
<v Speaker 1>your harmless accounts of a past life embolden someone else

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:23.399
<v Speaker 1>to and then wind up in a situation where they're

0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:27.399
<v Speaker 1>being manipulated or conned by someone who is taking advantage

0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:31.040
<v Speaker 1>of this you know, longing for or recollection of a past.

0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:33.319
<v Speaker 2>Life, telling you this stuff is real and I can

0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I can find your past selves for you for a price.

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:38.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you know, there's of course,

0:48:38.680 --> 0:48:40.160
<v Speaker 1>there's can be a lot of gray area in any

0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:43.759
<v Speaker 1>scenario like that, but you know, and this is hypothetical,

0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:46.520
<v Speaker 1>but you know, it's worth considering. I think that in

0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:49.279
<v Speaker 1>any given paranormal area, you know, it's going to be

0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.239
<v Speaker 1>dependent on more than just mere professed experience and or

0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:56.880
<v Speaker 1>augmented or false memories. There may also be disingenuous actors involved,

0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.760
<v Speaker 1>manipulators of disinformation, and of course just outright con artists

0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:03.640
<v Speaker 1>as well. So I don't know, food for thought.

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, i'd reiterate what I said. I mean, you know,

0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.560
<v Speaker 2>you can, you can enjoy all your family memories and

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:11.760
<v Speaker 2>all the you know, all the good stuff, but also

0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.560
<v Speaker 2>just be realistic about the fallibility of memory.

0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:15.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if there were a video camera present, it may

0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:20.040
<v Speaker 2>not actually have happened to the way you remember it.

0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:24.800
<v Speaker 2>But you know that our memories all we've got, yeah,

0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:26.439
<v Speaker 2>or in many cases it's all we got. I guess

0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:27.920
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you did have a video.

0:49:27.640 --> 0:49:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Camera there, Yeah, yeah, you have the video, the video

0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:33.239
<v Speaker 1>and you have the photographs which then can of course

0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:37.200
<v Speaker 1>be used to multi my memories. Yeah. So yeah, there's

0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:41.160
<v Speaker 1>and of course with advances and technology, things are only

0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:44.440
<v Speaker 1>going to get more complicated on that. On those grounds,

0:49:45.160 --> 0:49:47.279
<v Speaker 1>all right, we're going to go and close out this

0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:52.000
<v Speaker 1>trilogy of episodes here, but we'd continue to love to

0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:54.080
<v Speaker 1>hear from everyone out there if you have thoughts on

0:49:54.160 --> 0:49:57.120
<v Speaker 1>early childhood memories, you want to share early childhood memories,

0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:00.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, memories of past live is it, any of

0:50:00.600 --> 0:50:04.000
<v Speaker 1>anything that falls under the under the heading of the

0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:07.480
<v Speaker 1>topic here, you know, write in We would love to

0:50:08.040 --> 0:50:11.560
<v Speaker 1>listen to you and discuss any of this potentially on

0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 1>future episodes of Listener Mail. Listener Mails published on Mondays.

0:50:15.840 --> 0:50:18.560
<v Speaker 1>On Wednesdays, we do short form artifact or monster fact episodes.

0:50:18.600 --> 0:50:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on Fridays we

0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:23.759
<v Speaker 1>do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside

0:50:23.800 --> 0:50:26.000
<v Speaker 1>most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film.

0:50:26.280 --> 0:50:29.600
<v Speaker 2>Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:31.640
<v Speaker 2>would like to get in touch with us with feedback

0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.920
<v Speaker 2>on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:35.879
<v Speaker 2>for the future, or just to say hello, you can

0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:38.920
<v Speaker 2>email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:47.240
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0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:49.839
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0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:53.120
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