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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back finally with

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Speaker 2: part three of our series on childhood amnesia. We had

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Speaker 2: a bit of an interruption in the series last week

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Speaker 2: to first of all, to some sick days and then

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Speaker 2: to a scheduled interview. But now we return to finish

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Speaker 2: off the series, so I thought we should do a

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Speaker 2: brief refresher on the stuff we talked about in the

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Speaker 2: past couple of episodes here. So the term childhood amnesia

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Speaker 2: refers to a couple of different facts, which are, first

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Speaker 2: of all, the fact that most adults cannot conjure any genuine,

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Speaker 2: first hand episodic memories from before roughly the age of three.

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Speaker 2: And there are some minor variations in that age horizon

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Speaker 2: that have been observed to correlate with variables like gender.

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Speaker 2: Girls tend to have slightly earlier memories culture. Different cultures

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Speaker 2: have on average different memory horizons, but on average we

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Speaker 2: can say most people's earliest memories tend to be somewhere

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Speaker 2: in the range of three years old or between three

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Speaker 2: or four. And then the other fact is that once

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Speaker 2: we do start having memories, for the next four to

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Speaker 2: five years after that, we have fewer memories than would

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Speaker 2: be predicted by the normal rate of forgetting. That holds

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Speaker 2: true throughout the rest of your life. So first you've

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Speaker 2: got no memories usually, and then you've got fewer memories,

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Speaker 2: and then finally the regular rate of forgetting kicks in,

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Speaker 2: maybe somewhere around seven or eight or so. Now, some

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Speaker 2: people do claim to have much earlier memories, and we've

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Speaker 2: heard from some of them in email. Even some people

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Speaker 2: claim to have memories even up to and before birth,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's impossible.

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Speaker 1: To rule that out.

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Speaker 2: It's possible in some cases people do have those memories.

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Speaker 2: But these claims also have to be considered alongside the

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Speaker 2: fact that research shows it is very easy to create

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Speaker 2: the false impression of a childhood memory, spurred by all

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Speaker 2: kinds of external prompting, anything from a photo, whether a

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Speaker 2: real photo or a doctored one, a story told by

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Speaker 2: a parent. And it's clear that these false memories implanted

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Speaker 2: later in life in many cases feel completely genuine to us,

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Speaker 2: even if they are fabricated purely for the purpose of

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Speaker 2: an experiment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So we want to continue to drive that

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Speaker 1: home that to whatever extent a memory is accurate, augmented, fabricated,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, that doesn't take away from the subjective reality

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Speaker 1: of the memory and the importance of the memory, or

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Speaker 1: the or the pain of the memory.

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Speaker 2: Well sure, you know, one of the ways I would

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Speaker 2: put it is that like the fact that someone has

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Speaker 2: a false memory, as in they have a memory of

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Speaker 2: an event that did not actually happen, does not mean

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Speaker 2: that they're like lying it. You know, like we literally

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Speaker 2: cannot tell the difference between real memories involves memories in

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Speaker 2: many cases.

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Speaker 1: Right and I think it's safe to say that the

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Speaker 1: many memories, if not all memories, are false to some degree.

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Speaker 2: Right now. In previous parts, we also talked about some

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Speaker 2: of the experimental methods used to test for memory at

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Speaker 2: early ages, including you know, straightforward earliest memory prompts, tell

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Speaker 2: me your earliest memory, things like the word Q test,

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Speaker 2: so tell me a memory associated with the following word.

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Speaker 2: We use the example of jar and so forth. Now,

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Speaker 2: some research we discussed in previous episodes made a pretty

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Speaker 2: convincing case, at least to me, that the explanation is

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Speaker 2: not that the brain is incapable of forming memories before

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Speaker 2: the average age of three or four. One of the

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Speaker 2: other studies we talked about included a scenario in which

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Speaker 2: three year olds could produce details about recent events in

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Speaker 2: their lives when interviewed along with their mothers, showing that

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Speaker 2: they did have memories of recent things that had happened,

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Speaker 2: and these memories could be elicited with cues from parents.

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Speaker 2: Though it seems in a lot of cases children this

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Speaker 2: young will not offer details from memory spontaneously, but if

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Speaker 2: you kind of coax it out of them, they can

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Speaker 2: produce details on their own that show they do remember things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, plusive mom is there to help you know, right.

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Speaker 2: But when those very same kids were interviewed years later,

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Speaker 2: after having been able to produce memories about recent events

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Speaker 2: at age three, between the ages of seven and nine,

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Speaker 2: many of those memories of early events were lost, and

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Speaker 2: a lot more were lost by the ages of eight

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Speaker 2: and nine than were lost by the age of seven.

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Speaker 2: So there appears to be in later childhood kind of

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Speaker 2: a period of rapid massive forgetting, where a lot of

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Speaker 2: our earliest memories kind of vanish, like memories of a dream.

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Speaker 2: So the big question is why is it that many

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Speaker 2: of these earliest memories, or what memories exist of earliest events,

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Speaker 2: cannot be produced later in life, either later in childhood

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Speaker 2: or especially in adulthood. There have been a lot of

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Speaker 2: attempts to answer this question. There, of course, is still

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Speaker 2: a lot of controversy about it. It is not a

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Speaker 2: settled debate. But many of the proposed answers are based

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Speaker 2: in the developing structure of the brain. And while I

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Speaker 2: think there is absolutely something to these arguments, the neurodevelopmental

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Speaker 2: structural arguments, they don't exactly mean that the immature brain

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Speaker 2: cannot make memories yet, because again we as we've seen,

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Speaker 2: sometimes you can get younger children to provide details about

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Speaker 2: recent events, and also young children can show examples of learning,

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Speaker 2: say learning how to manipulate a simple mechanism in a toy,

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Speaker 2: in experiments that show that they do have memories that

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Speaker 2: in some cases last for weeks months, even before the

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Speaker 2: age of three, so there is some remembering going on. Instead,

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Speaker 2: it seems to me more likely that what's happening here

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Speaker 2: is the memories that the brain makes at age one

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Speaker 2: or two are prone to more rapid forgetting than the

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Speaker 2: kinds of memories we would make at age eleven or

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Speaker 2: twelve or Also, those memories might be different than the

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Speaker 2: memories made in later life in a way that makes

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Speaker 2: them more difficult to retrieve after we age passed that

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Speaker 2: memory horizon. So for the neurodevelopmental structural arguments, we looked

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Speaker 2: at one paper in Part two arguing that the hippocampal

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Speaker 2: memory system is actually very active in the first few

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Speaker 2: years of life. That's the normal memory system. A lot

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Speaker 2: is going on there when you're two years old or so.

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Speaker 2: But this paper argued that instead of making memories of

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Speaker 2: the kind that will be stored for the rest of

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Speaker 2: your life, what it's primarily doing with the processing of

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Speaker 2: information from experiences is learning how to learn. And complementary

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Speaker 2: to this, I think one structural developmental explanation's been offered

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Speaker 2: is that a lot of early autobiographical memories may be

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Speaker 2: lost due to the rapid rate of neurogenesis during childhood.

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Speaker 2: So as new brain cells are formed, especially in the hippocampus,

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Speaker 2: this may erode the stability of the structural basis of

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Speaker 2: existing memories. So, you know, the hippo campus is developing rapidly.

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Speaker 2: You're sort of like you know, rebuilding the house constantly

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Speaker 2: in real time, in which case the rooms that existed,

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Speaker 2: you know, a year ago, might not really exist anymore

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Speaker 2: as rooms down the road.

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Speaker 1: It's almost heartbreaking to think about that with common memories.

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Speaker 2: Of the house is getting bigger. You know, you can

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Speaker 2: put more in it, but you're also dismantling as you do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess it's like you're thinking of it

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Speaker 1: in terms of the young child. It's like the house

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Speaker 1: that is being built is going to be magnificent as well,

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Speaker 1: and it's built on the bones of the house that

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Speaker 1: came before, So you can't get too sentimental about that

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Speaker 1: which is being lost as a necessary part of the

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Speaker 1: child's maturing. But I still reserve the right to cry

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Speaker 1: a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, if you're recalled. I got interested in

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Speaker 2: this whole idea because of a story about my daughter,

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Speaker 2: who is actually I said five months last time. You know,

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Speaker 2: she's coming up on six months now, wow, And we

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Speaker 2: were trying to figure out Okay, so we've been really

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Speaker 2: making her laugh a lot by dropping a cloth on

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Speaker 2: her face. She thinks this is hilarious. Just lay her

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Speaker 2: down on the blanket and drop the cloth from above

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Speaker 2: and we were like, is she going to remember that

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Speaker 2: she thought this was funny? Will she be able to

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Speaker 2: explain why she thought it was funny when she's older,

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately it breaks my heart. I think the answer

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Speaker 2: is probably not.

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Speaker 1: Still, these are prime years to just kill it as

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Speaker 1: a dad standout, so it just keep developing that material.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, so while the while the overall causes of

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Speaker 2: childhood amnesia are still being debated in the scientific literature,

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Speaker 2: I'm very one over that at least one of the

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Speaker 2: major causes probably is the neurodevelopmental issue we talked about

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Speaker 2: in the last episode, the hippocampus coming online and developing.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it also seems plausible that it's a phenomenon

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Speaker 2: with multiple contributing causes, and maybe some are based not

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Speaker 2: just in the physical development of the brain, but possibly

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Speaker 2: in some more externally visible developmental milestones, maybe based in

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Speaker 2: the environment and things we learn. And so I thought,

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Speaker 2: before we move away from this topic, we should explore

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Speaker 2: a few of those ideas as well. So another factor

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Speaker 2: I've read about linked to childhood amnesia, possibly explaining elements

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Speaker 2: of it is language. This seems like an obvious place

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Speaker 2: to go. The language and the linguistic environment in which

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Speaker 2: a child grows up. What if the extent to which

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Speaker 2: we record experiences as memories in the form in which

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Speaker 2: they're stored, and our later ability to retrieve and make

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Speaker 2: sense of those memories is in some way dependent on language.

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Speaker 2: The typical childhood memory horizon tends to come pretty much

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Speaker 2: right in the middle of a period of rapid development

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Speaker 2: of language skills and the acquisition of vocabulary. So could

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Speaker 2: it be that the adult capacity for memory greatly depends

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Speaker 2: on the use of words and concepts that we gain

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Speaker 2: during this language acquisition period. Could be coincidence, but developing

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Speaker 2: skills and manipulating different types of subjects and predicates I

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Speaker 2: think could play a role in the onset of autobiographical

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Speaker 2: memories that persist over time, because language obviously plays a

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Speaker 2: major role in how we as adults remember and tell

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Speaker 2: autobiographical memories. Like you ever, notice how when you tell

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Speaker 2: a story from memory you often end up using the

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Speaker 2: same or similar words to do so. Why is that?

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Speaker 2: I mean? Even if so, you can understand how if

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Speaker 2: you are, like reporting speech in a memory, you would

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Speaker 2: want to use the same words to do so because

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Speaker 2: you're reporting what somebody said. But so you're reporting a

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Speaker 2: non verbal event, just like a walk you went on

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Speaker 2: and things you saw. Very often you use the same

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Speaker 2: or similar words to do so, or at least I

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Speaker 2: think I do, and most people I notice seem to do.

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Speaker 2: Would this be your experience?

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Speaker 1: Also, yeah, and I do. It kind of brings me

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Speaker 1: back to the topic of Dad stand up comedian, because

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Speaker 1: I wonder, like, to a large extent, it's like you

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Speaker 1: keep retelling a story more or less the same way

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Speaker 1: because you know what's really working, you know, like what, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what makes it more dramatic, what makes it more funny?

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Speaker 1: Which you know, how you can frame it in a

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Speaker 1: way that also brings to mind, like scenes from movies

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Speaker 1: or something. So yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of that going on.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, it's interesting you bring up the role of

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Speaker 2: entertainment and the language used to relate a memory. That'll

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Speaker 2: come up again in just a minute. But yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I think I would acknowledge that certain types of vocabulary

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Speaker 2: might actually make the difference between the ability to coherently

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Speaker 2: remember an event and recall it years later versus that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the characteristics that often come up when people

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Speaker 2: are describing their very earliest memories, even the ones we've

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Speaker 2: heard of from listeners in the email we got after

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Speaker 2: the first couple of parts, like the kind of rare, fragmented,

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Speaker 2: decontextualized sensory memories that people often produce as their very

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Speaker 2: earliest those have a very different character than a lot

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Speaker 2: of later memories, and that may it seems to me

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Speaker 2: like those differences could correlate with not really having the

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Speaker 2: language to organize them as memories at the time they're formed.

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Speaker 2: But if language does play an important role in establishing

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Speaker 2: the capacity for long term memories about your life, what

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Speaker 2: if it's not just conceptual vocabulary. Another way language could

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Speaker 2: have some thing to do with memory in early childhood

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Speaker 2: is narrative. So when you are asked to explain a

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Speaker 2: memory from childhood, for example, you know, what's the first

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Speaker 2: time you can remember swimming in the ocean, you could

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Speaker 2: say I was in Florida, I was about three, Or

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Speaker 2: you could say, well, I was with my mom and

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Speaker 2: dad and we were in Florida and the sand was white,

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Speaker 2: and I remember I saw a crab and it scared me,

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Speaker 2: but my dad told me it was safe and the

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Speaker 2: crab wouldn't chase me. And then the water was cold.

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Speaker 2: It was colder than the bath, and then saltwater got

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Speaker 2: in my nose and I didn't like that at first,

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Speaker 2: but then I did. And then later we went to

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Speaker 2: dinner at a restaurant and my dad got steamed crabs,

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Speaker 2: and he remembered the crab on the beach and he

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Speaker 2: kept teasing me. He made the crab creep up on

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Speaker 2: me on the table.

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Speaker 1: Oh, is this an actual memory for you?

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Speaker 2: No, I just made it up, But it seems like

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Speaker 2: it could.

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Speaker 1: Be, because I mean, you do have a certain fascination

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Speaker 1: with crabs. So if this were a legitimate memory, perhaps Joe,

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Speaker 1: perhaps we were retrieving this memory through the exercise of podcasting.

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Speaker 2: This explains everything. It's how I got corm and brain

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Speaker 2: and now it's just leaking out in a made up

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Speaker 2: story right here. But no, so, at least in the

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Speaker 2: way you tell stories from childhood, there is a wide

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Speaker 2: range of stylistic flexibility. You could mention things in a dry,

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Speaker 2: informational manner, reporting just where you were and what happened,

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Speaker 2: or you could offer information more in the kind of

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Speaker 2: narrative style that people enjoy and make meaning out of

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Speaker 2: when they tell stories to each other. And you could

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Speaker 2: call this distinction sort of reporting versus reminiscing, you know,

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Speaker 2: with the storytelling being more social in nature and more

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Speaker 2: entertainment focused. Honestly, So that comes back to your thing

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Speaker 2: about having a certain format of the memory that is

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Speaker 2: based around the language you've found is best to express

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Speaker 2: it for entertainment value or for communicating what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get across.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And exaggeration also, I find is also a

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Speaker 1: tool you often see employed sometimes, I guess at later

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Speaker 1: ages you see it used intentionally, intentionally exaggerating the emotional

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Speaker 1: context of an event in order to make a better

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Speaker 1: story out of it. Though I've also seen much younger

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Speaker 1: children do that. I remember and this was like a

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Speaker 1: birthday party I took my son to and there's a

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Speaker 1: slipping slide. Tensions were running high, I think, and an

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Speaker 1: adult went down the slipping slide, and then the birthday

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Speaker 1: boy exclaimed, this is a disaster, and see'd rather perturbed

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Speaker 1: by the whole scenario. I don't know how that experience

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Speaker 1: matured or state or it sticks stuck around as a memory,

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Speaker 1: but like that kind of exaggeration I can imagine could

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Speaker 1: make it if it was truly viewed as a disaster

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Speaker 1: as a catastrophe of a non child going down the

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Speaker 1: slip and slide.

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Speaker 2: Well, just think about yeah, if that child later tells

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Speaker 2: that story, all the different ways that the story could

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Speaker 2: be loaded. I mean, it could be loaded with like humor,

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Speaker 2: sort of ironic reflection on how one feels as a child,

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Speaker 2: or I don't know, maybe if you mature a certain way,

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Speaker 2: you might still take it very seriously and be upset

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Speaker 2: about the slip and slide. But there's all this loading

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Speaker 2: in stories that is not just merely reporting the facts

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Speaker 2: about an event, but to make the facts reported make

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Speaker 2: sense within some broader story. You might call this having

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Speaker 2: the facts contexted. That's how it was expressed in the

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Speaker 2: abstract of a paper I was looking at. But you

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Speaker 2: also make evaluative statements and implications about those facts. So

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Speaker 2: not just why happened, but I felt X about why.

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Speaker 2: And I've read numerous sources alleging that there could be

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Speaker 2: a link between the narrative reminiscing style of say the

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Speaker 2: family or the environment in which a child grows up

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Speaker 2: and the age at which those children form lasting memories.

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Speaker 2: I was reading about this in one article in the

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Speaker 2: Berkeley Greater Good magazine by Gene Shinsky and another article

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Speaker 2: in the BBC from twenty sixteen by Zaria Gorvitt. These

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Speaker 2: were essentially making the link that some researchers think more elaborate,

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Speaker 2: coherent narratives could cause children to have memories that last longer.

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Speaker 2: In one example was cited in that BBC article. It

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Speaker 2: was a paper done by the Cornell University psychology professor

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Speaker 2: Chi Wang, who was the author of a paper called

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Speaker 2: culture Effects on Adult's Earliest childhood Recollection and Self Description

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Speaker 2: Implications for the Relation between Memory and the Self published

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Speaker 2: in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and one, and this found that by comparing childhood

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Speaker 2: stories told by Chinese and American college students, American students

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Speaker 2: stories tended to be longer, more elaborate, with more self

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Speaker 2: focused evaluations, whereas the Chinese stories were more restrained and factual.

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Speaker 2: And also the average earliest memories of the American students

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Speaker 2: were a little bit earlier. And this personally squared with

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Speaker 2: Wong's experience of growing up in China, where she said

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Speaker 2: that the cultural norm was that there was less emphasis

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Speaker 2: on stories of early childhood memories and she gives a

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Speaker 2: quote to the BBC saying, if society is telling you

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Speaker 2: those memories are important to you, you'll hold on to them.

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Speaker 2: And this also relates to cross cultural studies saying that

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Speaker 2: some of the examples of the people on average the

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Speaker 2: earliest childhood memories tend to be people of the Maori culture,

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Speaker 2: and these same studies find that Maori families tend to

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Speaker 2: place a lot of emphasis on elaborate narrative storytelling in

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Speaker 2: the past. So I thought this was interesting that this

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Speaker 2: could connect to some of the differences we've already read

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Speaker 2: about and I think talked about in the first episode

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Speaker 2: about cross culture differences in the age of the earliest memories,

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Speaker 2: and also gender differences, because there have been some studies

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Speaker 2: showing that girls tend to have slightly earlier memories on

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Speaker 2: average than boys, and that girls in childhood tend to

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Speaker 2: relate stories in a more contexted and evaluative manner. But

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Speaker 2: whatever the particulars of how it works, it's certainly not

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Speaker 2: hard for me to imagine that the storytelling environment in

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Speaker 2: which you grow up plays a large role on what

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Speaker 2: and how you remember things from your earliest childhood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating, and something also Just to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind too, that I remember one of the sources

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Speaker 1: I quoted in maybe the first episode mentioned, and that

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Speaker 1: is that there's no right or wrong way. Like earlier

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Speaker 1: memories of childhood versus later memories, neither one is healthier

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Speaker 1: or more correct. The brain remembers what it needs to remember.

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Speaker 2: Right and while playing on that, one way to interpret

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Speaker 2: these findings, if they are correct, is that maybe by

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Speaker 2: inhabiting an environment where there is a lot of elaborate

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Speaker 2: narrative storytelling that involves a lot of contexting of events

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Speaker 2: and including evaluations, that is an environment that tells the

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Speaker 2: child that they need to remember things in that manner

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Speaker 2: and thus makes them easier to retrieve and relate later on.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the interesting thing being that again this is

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Speaker 2: all coming back to autobiographical memories, the kind of memories

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Speaker 2: for events in your life that, like you can later

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Speaker 2: retell as stories. And this doesn't necessarily correspond to other

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Speaker 2: types of memory, like say, memory of how to do something,

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Speaker 2: you know, memories that we often think of not as

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Speaker 2: quote memory but as learning. All right, So, the language

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Speaker 2: based memory development idea has been around for a long

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Speaker 2: time and it has its proponents, though I think also

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Speaker 2: it has its critics, and I don't think we should

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Speaker 2: place too much emphasis on things like the role of language,

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Speaker 2: because one big reason here is that some analogs to

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Speaker 2: infantile amnesia have been discovered in animals like rats. You know,

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Speaker 2: so there are rat experiments showing kind of similar patterns

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Speaker 2: of forgetting of the earliest experiences as rats age into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: Rats of course never acquire language, but show some similar patterns.

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Speaker 2: So it's clear that language is not the deciding factor,

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Speaker 2: but may play a role in, say, the timing of

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Speaker 2: different stages of memory acquisition. Another older idea that might

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Speaker 2: still have something to do with childhood amnesia what about

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Speaker 2: the role of what researchers have called the cognitive self.

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Speaker 2: I was reading about this in a paper called on

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Speaker 2: Resolving the Enigma of Infantile Amnesia by Mark Howe and

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Speaker 2: Mary Courage published in Psychological Bulletin in nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 2: and they discussed the idea of what if the crucial

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Speaker 2: factor in the establishment of lasting autobiographical memories is the

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Speaker 2: development of the concept of I and me, related in

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Speaker 2: a way to the concept of theory of mind, understanding

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Speaker 2: that your mind is different from the minds of others,

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Speaker 2: that you know things other people don't know, and have

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Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings other people don't have, and that they

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Speaker 2: likewise know things and have thoughts and feelings that you

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Speaker 2: cannot share in unless they tell you. Under this proposal,

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Speaker 2: it's not until we have mastered the concept of a

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Speaker 2: self different from others that we're able to organize our

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Speaker 2: memories into a sensical form that can be retrieved across time.

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Speaker 2: How encourage right in their conclusion quote. A series of

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Speaker 2: significant developmental events take place when infants are between eighteen

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Speaker 2: and thirty months of age that prepare them to talk

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Speaker 2: about personally experienced events. First, at about eighteen months of age,

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Speaker 2: infants learned to recognize their features in the mirror. The

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Speaker 2: next acquisition is a more advanced representation of the self,

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Speaker 2: reflected in the pronomial reference to the self as I

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Speaker 2: and me. In the early months of the second year, Finally,

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Speaker 2: the child learns to talk about immediate and then more

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Speaker 2: distant past events in narrative the language of autobiographical memory.

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Speaker 2: Both narrative and autobiographical memory continue to develop in structure, organization,

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Speaker 2: and content over the preschool years, but by that time

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Speaker 2: infantile amnesia is indeed a phenomenon of the past. And

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Speaker 2: so this one's a little bit different because this one

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Speaker 2: does not depend while it's related to language, their idea

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Speaker 2: of the concept of the cognitive self does not rely

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Speaker 2: entirely on language, and they think there are ways that

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Speaker 2: the cognitive self can be demonstrated before a child acquires

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Speaker 2: the words in which to express it. But they they

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Speaker 2: think that the child needs a concept of self and

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Speaker 2: I separate from the world and the events in the

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Speaker 2: world in order to put the memories into a form

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Speaker 2: that can later be accessed and expressed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because it sounds like without that,

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Speaker 1: there's no there's no like weight, there's no structure. It's

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Speaker 1: just like memories of potentially of just environments and in

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Speaker 1: groups of people, without the actual connection of like this

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Speaker 1: that this is a value because I am at the

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Speaker 1: center of it.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And that would connect again to the ideas

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Speaker 2: about narrative and maybe the important role of say, evaluative

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Speaker 2: statements about memories helping us to be able to recall

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Speaker 2: them later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The child is yeah, oh sorry, Yeah, the child

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Speaker 1: is like, it's nice, but what is in it for me? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I remember it.

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Speaker 2: So in the end, when I'm looking at all these explanations,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Of course, I'm you know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: a neuros scientist or a developmental psychologist, so I don't

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Speaker 2: pretend to be expressing expertise on this, but I just say, personally,

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Speaker 2: I feel pretty convinced by the neurodevelopmental arguments, the ones

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Speaker 2: about the development of the hippocampal memory system, that there's

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Speaker 2: clearly some kind of like structural change going on in

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Speaker 2: the brain in the early years of life, and this

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Speaker 2: this plays a major role in why we don't retain

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Speaker 2: all these memories until later life. As far as these

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Speaker 2: explanations based in language and the cognitive self and stuff,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like the evidence for them

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Speaker 2: is a little bit softer, but I'm very interested in them,

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Speaker 2: and they seem plausible to me at least. M yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: But basically, all the papers I read on this subject,

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Speaker 2: or you know the old cliche, they're calling for more research,

438
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 2: like you know, widely acknowledging this is not a settled question,

439
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: and so you know that we have some interesting ideas,

440
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: but ultimately we don't know for sure. Childhood amnesia happens,

441
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: and maybe more research could help settle it.

442
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: Now, we've discussed false memories a good bit in these episodes,

443
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, talking about very early childhood memories that are

444
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: to some degree falsified unaugmented, and you know, I think

445
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: it's easy to mostly focus on the potential pitfalls of

446
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: false memories or to land somewhere on sort of like

447
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: the neutral impact that they may have. But I also

448
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: wanted to tackle the question of just like why is

449
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: it also advantageous to have false memories? Like why would

450
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: this it all be adaptive? Is there an upside to

451
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: this mental ability? Or is this just kind of junk?

452
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: Is this just kind of a byproduct of the way

453
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: that our brains have developed.

454
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that this is not the only

455
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: way in which our brains consistently generate false beliefs. And

456
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: I think when our brains do that, they're usually doing

457
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: it for a reason.

458
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, certainly this ties into larger issues

459
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: of how we falsify beliefs, how we falsify memories, how

460
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: we obsess over perhaps impractical ideas of what the future

461
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: might hold. You know, I'm reminded of a couple of

462
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: quotes here. I believe it was Alan Rogerley who commented

463
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: that he may have been quoting somebody else actually, that

464
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: repetition and recollection are the same force, but in different directions.

465
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: I remember too, I think our Scott Baker commenting that

466
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: science fiction and fantasy kind of both fulfill the same purpose,

467
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: but going either into the past or into the future,

468
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: sort of constructing an unrealistic but far fetched version of

469
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: the future based on where we are now, and then

470
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: the other is a version of the past that is

471
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: equally fantastic and illogical and obviously not true, but telling

472
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: about where we are in the present. So you know,

473
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: we're these strange creatures that see ourselves as occupying this space,

474
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: this now, and remembering what came before, predicting what is

475
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: about to come. And then it's kind of open to

476
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: discussion if there is actually a now point, like are

477
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: we actually there? Or is that also a construction of

478
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: the past. But any rate, I wanted to see what

479
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: experts were saying about this, so I was reading a

480
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: paper titled false Memories, What the Hell Are They For?

481
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: By Aaron J. Newman and D. Stephen Lindsay published in

482
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: Applied Cognitive Psychology Back in two thousand and nine, and

483
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: I thought the author's made some good points here, and

484
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: a number of these are going to be things that

485
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, we've discussed on the show before, or I

486
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: guess generally understood about memory in the brain. But first

487
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: of all, this is all part of mental our mental

488
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: time travel abilities that enable us to experience our memories

489
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: of the past with a feeling of subjective clarity, while

490
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: also enabling us to produce mental models of potential futures. Quote.

491
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: Recalling an autobiographical experience involves piecing together activated memorial information

492
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: while at the same time making inferences based on other

493
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: information available to us. Biases, stereotypes, and expectations that act

494
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: on our current thinking also act on inferences that we

495
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: make about mental events arising from the past. So obviously,

496
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: given this system, failures are inevitable. Memory failures are inevitable

497
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: false memories, along with inaccurate or unlikely ruminated scenarios of

498
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: the future. This is all just part of living with

499
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: our human understanding of reality, and so various methods can

500
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: be used and have been studied to produce false memories

501
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: of events. The authors point out these include suggestion via imagination, exercises,

502
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: the use of photographs, dream interpretation, guided imagery, and paraphrasing.

503
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, even this kind of joking example that we

504
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: busted out earlier, of you bringing up a hypo ethical,

505
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: entirely made up memory of childhood about crabs, and it

506
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: was so loaded with crabs. It's a relatively easy exercise

507
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: for one to then turn that back on the person

508
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: who created and saying, well, is that completely made up?

509
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: What does that say about you? Why did you bring

510
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: up the crabs so many times? You know? And you

511
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: can begin to build on that.

512
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: Well, yes, And if you took that same story and said, hey,

513
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: you know your parents told us the story about when

514
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: you went to the beach when you were little. Do

515
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: you remember this? Well, you might not necessarily at first,

516
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: or you might think, well, maybe I do, And then

517
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: over time that could very easily turn into what feels

518
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: like a real memory for you.

519
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it also Now, there are a number of

520
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 1: factors to keep in mind too. It's worth noting that

521
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: the results and experiments involving the creation or the fostering

522
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: of false recollections it depends on the degree to which

523
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: a memory is falsified. For example, in many of these experiments,

524
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: you'll find examples where they'll find out about an actual

525
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: childhood memory, like they would in this case, say talk

526
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: to one of your parents and ask about your earliest

527
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: speech encounter and then use that in the construction of

528
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: a false memory. And then you also have to take

529
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: into account the weight of the memory that is being

530
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: built up or augmented. So it's one thing, for example,

531
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: for me to suggest, yeah, maybe you were really fascinated

532
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: by crabs like you like you were in this false

533
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: story of childhood. It's another to say, you know, maybe

534
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: that they had a you know, just you were profoundly

535
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: frightened by the crabs and this like totally shaped to you.

536
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's like how how much weight are you

537
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: putting on the memory? For instance, one study referenced in

538
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: this paper had high results of memory inception when you

539
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: were trying to get them to remember a childhood prank. Now,

540
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, nothing too severe, but you know something that

541
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: where it's not going to like shake the core of

542
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: their being or really mess around too many understandings of stuff.

543
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: Is just like, let's generate this memory of this prank

544
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: that probably didn't actually occur.

545
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: Yes, So if I'm understanding, right, this might imply it's

546
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: easier to generate a false memory for an event that

547
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 2: is not really like, does not shake the core of

548
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: your what how you would characterize your childhood, but rather

549
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: for a kind of like weird, quirky, funny little event

550
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: that doesn't really change anything about your life.

551
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: Right. And of course, a lot of the very sorts

552
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: of memories, early childhood memories that we've been discussing here,

553
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: the kind that are sort of shared among family, are

554
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: exactly the sort of memory you know. They're not necessarily

555
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: profound or anything. They're amusing, they're fun, and therefore it's

556
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: easy to grab onto it now. The authors also point

557
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: out that social factors such as group membership in the

558
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: media as well can seemingly influence memories like this as

559
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: well quote socially driven distortions in memory these and they

560
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: have several benefits for the individuals, such as improving social

561
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: relationships within a group, or they may improve social group coherence.

562
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: So false memories can be self enhancing in many ways,

563
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: but they can also be group enhancing. And in this

564
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: we're getting we're speaking broadly beyond merely like childhood memories,

565
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: but even getting into things where say you were a

566
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: part of a group, you join a group where memories

567
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: of say even paranormal experiences have value. They bring you

568
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: closer to the people in a group, or they enhance

569
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: the overall connectivity of the group.

570
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: This is exactly what I was going to hypothesize earlier

571
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: when you were talking about so I brought up you know,

572
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: there are other ways that our brain consistently produces false beliefs,

573
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: and there you would suspect that there's probably an adaptive

574
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: reason for doing that, like there's survival benefit, that's why

575
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: our brains work that way. And my guess was going

576
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: to be social function there that the same way that

577
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: you know, we can have not false memories, but false

578
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: beliefs about the external world. These can easily be induced

579
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: through a concept known as identity protective cognition. You know,

580
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: people will reason in ways that are not strictly logical

581
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: and will come to conclusions that they would find to

582
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: be false if they were disinterested in the issue, but

583
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 2: there is some social identity reason for coming to that belief.

584
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: You know, in order to fit in with my social group,

585
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: I need to be the kind of person that believes X.

586
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: So Actually I do believe X, and it is right,

587
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: And I think the same could easily be true of memories.

588
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: It probably matters more for your survival that you're getting

589
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: along good with your group than that, like, you actually

590
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: remembered what happened last Tuesday a year ago correctly. So

591
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: if there's a way to remember that event incorrectly, but

592
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: that would be sort of like fun to share as

593
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: a group together, to tell that story and all bond

594
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: and all feel good about each other, well then maybe

595
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: you'll go that way.

596
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean all this makes sense, I

597
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: think because of course humans are highly social creatures. We've

598
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. This has had an enormous

599
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: impact on the human animal. So is it any surprise

600
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: that we help each other remember events of our past.

601
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: Is it any surprise that these memories may be distorted

602
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: for the betterment of one's own integration with a group

603
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: or the overall coherence of the group. Because for the

604
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: social animal, the group is it's not just nice to

605
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: have like the group is survival. Being able to bond

606
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: with the group has has a real adaptive advantage and

607
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: may and being able to fit in even if you're

608
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: distorting the actual occurrence of events in the past. This

609
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: may frequently outweigh the value of objective reality.

610
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: So it's better if all your friends are laughing about, Hey,

611
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: you remember that time, Johnny, I don't know, Yeah, chase

612
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 2: me with esteamed crab and you don't really remember that.

613
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: It's probably better for your brain to convince you you

614
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: do remember that, so you can laugh along with everybody

615
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: else than to say, like, no, I don't think that happened.

616
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, But again, these are generalizations, so you know, individual

617
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: experience is gonna is going to differ, and they are

618
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: all sorts of caveats that can come into play. But yeah,

619
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: I think this is fascinating to think about now. In

620
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: I think both of the last couple of episodes, we

621
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about myth babies and legendary babies

622
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: of history, child Hercules, child Jesus, child Christian, and so forth.

623
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: So I do have just a little bit more on this,

624
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: getting into the idea of the child hero and the

625
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: child saint.

626
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: Okay, we're gonna do another super baby sidebar here.

627
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this one, this one is going to end

628
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: up bringing up child mortality again. So my apologies. It

629
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: was not my intent to discuss this more, but in

630
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: just diving into the topic it becomes an essential part

631
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: of understanding some of these traditions. Okay, so first of all,

632
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: just talking about infant heroes in Greek tradition. One paper

633
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: I was looking at here is Baby and Child Heroes

634
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: in Ancient Greece by Kareem and Dina Pash. And when

635
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: it comes to the child hero proper and not merely

636
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: the infant form of adult heroes, so not just merely

637
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: baby hercules, but like a child hero that is a

638
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: hero in and of itself. They are defined not by

639
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: their actions and exploits, as with adult heroes, but by

640
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: their untimely deaths, which immortalize them as in hero cults.

641
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: And these include such examples as the children of Medea

642
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: and the children of Heracles. To quote Pash here quote

643
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: from parental fears and sense of guilt arise. The stories,

644
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 1: songs and sanctuaries honoring child heroes, both myth and ritual,

645
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: articulate these very basic human anxieties. Yet the emphasis is

646
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: ultimately on the beauty that transcends the gruesomeness of these

647
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: narratives and transforms dread into poetry. I think this is

648
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: also interesting to consider when you look at the long

649
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: list of child saints in the Christian tradition, and these

650
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: include both martyred children and adults, as well as children

651
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: who died at a young age, but were said to

652
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: have been very mature, very holy in their young life

653
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: in a way that it's almost like they were too

654
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: holy for this world and therefore could not remain here.

655
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: So just a couple of examples to illustrate both of

656
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: these categories. There's Saint Rumwald of Buckingham from the year

657
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: six sixty two, said to have lived only for three days,

658
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: but the child was said to be able to speak

659
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: and profess his faith right away. In fact, it's, according

660
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: to the legend, requested his own baptism and even delivered

661
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: a sermon.

662
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: He requested it, But did he get it?

663
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: Did they baptiste? Yeah, I believe that's part of the story.

664
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: You got the baptism and then got to deliver a sermon,

665
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: which you know is a comical image in some in

666
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: some ways, but also you understand where the like the

667
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: creative energy of this comes from, like the idea of

668
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: like a child and the and the attachment we feel

669
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: to a child, the perfection and yet imperfection of a child,

670
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: and then if there is, and then when you factor

671
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: in these various faith models of how salvation is supposed

672
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: to work, if you you factor in just the trauma

673
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: of losing a young child, you can see where stories

674
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: like this could be created. And then, of course you

675
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: also have examples of martyrs. Uh. There is a secarius

676
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: of Bethlehem said to have been killed in King Herod's

677
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 1: massacre of the innocent somewhere between seven and two BCE.

678
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: The alleged remains of the child are still held as

679
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: holy relics today. So in these cases, you know, the

680
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: child is not my understanding, at least in this case.

681
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: And this may vary from telling to telling. A case

682
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: where the child itself is not said to have been

683
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: holy or done anything holy, but was victim of some

684
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: or allegedly the victim of some sort of heinous act.

685
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd lean on allegedly on that one, because I

686
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: think the story of the slaughter of the innocence, from

687
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: what I recall, is largely considered to be legendary.

688
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's And of course it's very notable that some

689
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 1: of the more notorious examples of child martyrs were utilized

690
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: in cases of blood libel against Jewish communities. Hugh of

691
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: Lincoln in the thirteenth century and Simon Trent in the

692
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: fifteenth century, ving two prime examples. And these are sadly

693
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: not the only examples. You can pull out cases where

694
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: the you know, the alleged murder of a child was

695
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: then used as an excuse for acts of violence against

696
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: communities that were blamed with that to death. So obviously

697
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: kind of a depressing place, I know, to wind up

698
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: in this tangent, and I didn't really again, didn't really

699
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: want to discuss dead children again, but I guess it's unavoidable.

700
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: You know, why does a child stand out in a

701
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: mythic narrative. It may be about who that child will become,

702
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: but there's also a weight to the child that does

703
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: not pass on into mythic adulthood, you know. And it

704
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: can be clearly be leveraged in different ways as a

705
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: rallying cry of martyrdom, as an inspiration of innocence, as

706
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: an inspiration for violence and horror. You know, it can

707
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: be the kind of narrative that can circumvent the cruelty

708
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: of the world or inspire more cruelty there's you know

709
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: you can you can go in various directions with it. Now,

710
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: one final thing I wanted to discuss you a little bit,

711
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: and I think we alluded to it a little bit

712
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: earlier in this episode, is that you know. As we've

713
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: discussed already, there are numerous examples of suggested falsified memories

714
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: to turn to, including memories of various pair normal encounters,

715
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: different forms of abuse, and indeed we can also throw

716
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: supposed memories of past lives into the mix. You know

717
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: you can, You'll have you. You can certainly find people

718
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 1: who claim to remember very early childhood, people who claim

719
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: to remember their birth, but also people who claim to

720
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: remember a time before their birth, before they were born,

721
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: either in the womb or before the womb, in another

722
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: life before the womb. And you know, so you know

723
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: it's uh. This again speaks to the power of our

724
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: ability to create and falsify meaningful memories. And it's not

725
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: too big of a leap, right, If you can already

726
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: create a memory of a thing that didn't occur, it's

727
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: not too much of a leap to remember supposed lives

728
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: before this one as well, right, And there's a lot

729
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: of individuals have written on this and theorized on this

730
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Check. Psychiatrist Stanislav Groff theorized that some

731
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: near death experiences are actually a kind of channeling of

732
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: birth memories, with the so called model of light representing

733
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: the birth canal. This is skeptical about that, Yes, yeah,

734
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: this is you know, very everyone has a right to

735
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: be very skeptical of this. I've seen it refuted by

736
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: skeptics on a number of grounds, including that the experience

737
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: of being born would not look like this even if

738
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: your infant head were in the right position and your

739
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: eyes were actually open, and again you were capable of

740
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: forming memories like this. So I think there's very strong

741
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: reasons to be skeptical of this being an actual memory.

742
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: But like we've said, you get in there and you

743
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: start tinkering with your memories, start recalling them. You start

744
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: bringing in content you know from different communities and learned individuals.

745
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: You can start augmenting things, you can start falsifying things,

746
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: and what you end up with can still be highly meaningful.

747
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: It can still you know, to you. It can also

748
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: have an impact on the creation of art and literature.

749
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: If the name Stanislovgrov sounds familiar longtime listeners might remember

750
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: it coming up in an episode that Christian and I

751
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: did on the art of hr Giger, because these very metaphors,

752
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, the tunnel of light, near death, and pre birth,

753
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: these were explored in some of Giger's art work, and

754
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: Groff actually authored a twenty eighteen book of Giger's work

755
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: titled hr Giger and the Zeitgeist of the Twentieth Century. Groff,

756
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: by the way, was also a technical advisor on Douglas

757
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: Trumbull's nineteen eighty three film Brainstorm that had Christopher Walkin

758
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: in it. I believe so again not to say that

759
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: these can't be potent ideas, but they do seem to

760
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: stand outside of science there. You know, these are more

761
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 1: We're getting more into the area of religion and myth

762
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: and even the paranormal. But I think it all speaks

763
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: to just how invested we can become in the story

764
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: of us and those vast blank spaces in our recollection,

765
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: as you know, as well as any glimmers that we

766
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: might sense in the dark that we could then augment

767
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: and sentuate into something else, something that is meaningful to

768
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: us or makes us feel part of a group. Et cetera.

769
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: And you know, there are examples of this line of

770
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: thinking from outside of science, concepts of pre existence in

771
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: various cultures. There's the concept of reincarnation or the transmigration

772
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: of the soul, and we see this in various traditions,

773
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: Greek traditions, early Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, medieval Jewish mysticism, new

774
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: religious movements, and so many more examples.

775
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 2: There were some early Christians who believed in reincarnation.

776
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was reading a little bit about this,

777
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of a pre mortal existence of

778
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 1: the soul. Various strains of thought concerning that not only

779
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: the idea that the human soul was was pre had

780
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: a pre existence, that it was say, created before the

781
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: physical creation of the universe. And I guess you know,

782
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: the souls are just setting around waiting to be installed

783
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: in a physical form. And then there is also a

784
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: fair amount of thought about the idea of the pre

785
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: existence of Jesus, of Jesus Christ, the idea that yes,

786
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: God is going to take on this sort of mortal

787
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: incarnation because he has to go to earth and die

788
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: for everyone sins and so forth. But then there are

789
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: there are these some lines of thought that are like, okay,

790
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: well what was he doing before then? And I guess

791
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: on one hand, you could say, well, he just had

792
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: God had not incarnated yet, so it's like he hadn't

793
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: butted off into a physical form. But then there are

794
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: these other lines of thought it's like, oh, yeah, no,

795
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: he's there, he's just setting around waiting, but he just

796
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: hasn't gone to earth yet. For example, I was reading

797
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: that there was one early Christian theologian I believe this

798
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: is origin of I'll think of Alexandria, I lived at

799
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: one through two fifty three, taught that human souls existed

800
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: for before creation, and this was something that he would

801
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: later be accused of heresy for. But yeah, I don't know.

802
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the big take home from all

803
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: of this is that we have an impressive ability to

804
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: create meaningful memories out of various sources that are not

805
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: pure recollection to the limited extent that there is purely

806
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 1: recollection of anything. And you know, I guess I don't

807
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: think there's anything intrinsically wrong with fostering memories of infancy,

808
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: birth or life before birth, so long as it improves

809
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: one's quality of life, and it doesn't take anything away

810
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: from you or others. You know. If that's the case,

811
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: then what's the harm in it?

812
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: I think the way I'd put my feeling is reminisce

813
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: and enjoy your memories, but also be aware of the

814
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: fact that some of them may not have a factual basis.

815
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. When I was thinking about this, I was

816
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: trying to think, well, how could it be harmful? And

817
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: I think that the main sticking point that I could

818
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: come up with is if one's claims of false memories

819
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: could embolden harmful models and others. So this is just

820
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 1: a purely hypothetical scenario. But imagine that you, through one

821
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 1: method or another, we've discussed your fostered memory of alien

822
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: abduction that for you is awe inspiring and beneficial. Like

823
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: I remember seeing aliens when I was a child, and

824
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: isn't that great? I you know, this this is my

825
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, brain expanding cosmost appreciating moment. But what if

826
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: your pronounced belief in these experiences enable someone else to

827
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: further engage in a harmful variation on it? Or on

828
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: the other hand, what if here's another scenario, what if

829
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 1: your harmless accounts of a past life embolden someone else

830
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: to and then wind up in a situation where they're

831
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: being manipulated or conned by someone who is taking advantage

832
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: of this you know, longing for or recollection of a past.

833
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: Life, telling you this stuff is real and I can

834
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: I can find your past selves for you for a price.

835
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you know, there's of course,

836
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: there's can be a lot of gray area in any

837
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: scenario like that, but you know, and this is hypothetical,

838
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: but you know, it's worth considering. I think that in

839
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: any given paranormal area, you know, it's going to be

840
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: dependent on more than just mere professed experience and or

841
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: augmented or false memories. There may also be disingenuous actors involved,

842
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 1: manipulators of disinformation, and of course just outright con artists

843
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: as well. So I don't know, food for thought.

844
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd reiterate what I said. I mean, you know,

845
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: you can, you can enjoy all your family memories and

846
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 2: all the you know, all the good stuff, but also

847
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: just be realistic about the fallibility of memory.

848
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, if there were a video camera present, it may

850
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: not actually have happened to the way you remember it.

851
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 2: But you know that our memories all we've got, yeah,

852
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 2: or in many cases it's all we got. I guess

853
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: sometimes you did have a video.

854
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: Camera there, Yeah, yeah, you have the video, the video

855
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: and you have the photographs which then can of course

856
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: be used to multi my memories. Yeah. So yeah, there's

857
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: and of course with advances and technology, things are only

858
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: going to get more complicated on that. On those grounds,

859
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: all right, we're going to go and close out this

860
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: trilogy of episodes here, but we'd continue to love to

861
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: hear from everyone out there if you have thoughts on

862
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: early childhood memories, you want to share early childhood memories,

863
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, memories of past live is it, any of

864
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: anything that falls under the under the heading of the

865
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: topic here, you know, write in We would love to

866
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: listen to you and discuss any of this potentially on

867
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: future episodes of Listener Mail. Listener Mails published on Mondays.

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Speaker 1: On Wednesdays, we do short form artifact or monster fact episodes.

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Speaker 1: Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on Fridays we

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Speaker 1: do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside

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Speaker 1: most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film.

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Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

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Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

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Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

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Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

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Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.