1 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: Okay, folks, this is our final episode and as you 2 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: can tell, we got to venture out of the studio 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: for this one. It has been wild for me to 4 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: have this show out in the world. The response was overwhelming. 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: Tons of people I didn't know DMed me, and almost 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: all of them expressed gratitude that we told the story 7 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: of Anna Mendieta and Carl Andre so publicly, and so 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: my producer Luisa and I wanted to bring the conversation 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: back to where it all started, the art world. We 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: invited listeners to a gallery in New York for a 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: discussion in Q and A. It was a cold December night, 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: and as the sun went down, the gallery filled with people. 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: There's seats in the front if any one wants to 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: come up. We have like the classic classroom problem, where 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: no one wants to be in the front row. We 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: were at the ai R Gallery, a place that was 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: an important part of Anna Mendietta's story. Ai R is 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: the first nonprofit, artist run, cooperative gallery for women artists 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: in the United States, and in nineteen seventy nine, it 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: was where Anna Mendieta showed her beautiful silhouette to photographs 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: and where she met carl Andre for the first time. 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: For our discussion, we were joined by Patricia Margherita Hernandez, 23 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: a curator who previously served as an associate director of 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: ai R. Patty's a millennial and I'm a classic gen xer, 25 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: and even though we're both feminists and both curators, it 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: was interesting to recognize how much the art world can 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: change in just one generation. I want to share that 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: conversation with you, so once more with feeling. Here's that 29 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: the music. I'm Helen Molesworth and from Pushkin Industries, Something 30 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: Else and Sony Music Entertainment. This is Death of an Artist, 31 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: recorded live at the ai R Gallery. All right, I'm Luisa, 32 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: I'm the producer of Death of an Artist and I 33 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: want to welcome Helen Molesworth and Patty Margharita Hernandez to 34 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: the stage. So I want to start with a question 35 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: for Patty about ai R, which was an important part 36 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: of Annamandy at this story. Can you say a little 37 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: bit about the origins of the gallery and why it 38 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: still feels so important to have a space specifically for 39 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: women and non binary people. Ai R began in nineteen 40 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: seventy two, and it's you know, at that time, especially 41 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: the sixties in early seventies, you know, women artists were 42 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: experiencing what we're all too familiar with. They just didn't 43 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: have an entry point into the art world in general, 44 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: and they didn't have places a show, weren't represented by galleries. 45 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: Anna Mendieta was a member from nineteen seventy eight to 46 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and she had two exhibitions, solo exhibitions, 47 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: and in between those two shows she organized a group 48 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: exhibition with the then member Kazigo Miamoto and then the 49 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: artists Arena called Dialectics of Isolation, an exhibition of their 50 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: world women artists of the United States, and that show, 51 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: for me as a curator art student, fundamentally shifted the 52 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: way I thought about art in general. Annamandieta and the 53 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: group of artists in the show wanted to have a 54 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: conversation about the different types of feminisms and the exclusion 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: of bipoc women because it's emblematic of why a space 56 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: like ai R exists, Like that idea that I can 57 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: have an exhibition and of difficult conversations. We started the 58 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: podcast in the art world of the nineteen seventies, where 59 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: certainly there was a lot of art being made about 60 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: gender and ethnicity and race, but not a lot of 61 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: that work was shown in museums, or certainly wasn't in 62 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: art history textbooks. And I think now a lot of 63 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: work that's on view in galleries and museums is very 64 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: much about identity. So I was curious to hear if 65 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: you have any specific anecdotes from art school or from 66 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: your work life that illustrates that shift and the growing 67 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: pains that come with that shift. I mean, I sort 68 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: of entered the New York Art world in eighty eight 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: eighty nine. One of the things that means is that 70 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: I entered it under the umbrella of the AIDS HIV 71 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: Crisis and Act UP, which was the AIDS coalition to 72 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: unleash powers response to that crisis. And I was twenty one, 73 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: which is another way of saying I didn't know anything, 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: And so I assumed that the art world I was 75 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: entering was a radical, progressive place, filled with people who 76 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: were prepared to put their bodies on the line to 77 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: address a health crisis that had been exacerbated and in 78 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: fact created by a government that didn't care about gay people. 79 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: That turned out like not to be super true about 80 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: the art world. But it was the ship I wrote 81 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: in on, so to speak, and so I believed it 82 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: for actually a very long time. And I believed it 83 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: probably because I was friends mostly with artists, and that 84 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: was a moment when museums were trying to change, and 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: particularly the museum I was most affiliated with at that 86 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: period in my life was the Whitney, and it had 87 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: hired of a young curator named Thelma Golden. Thelma was 88 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: my age. She's currently the director of the Studio Museum 89 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: in Harlem. At the time, she was a curator at 90 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: the Whitney, and she was a young African American woman 91 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: who had just situated from Smith College. She had incredible presence, 92 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: she had a dynamic energy, she had a very quick wit, 93 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: and she was doing really work that seemed completely radical. 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: And she and Elizabeth Sussman and another curator at the Whitney, 95 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: and Eugenie Ssi and Lisa Phillips, and they were really 96 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: fighting to make space for women artists and gay artists 97 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: and artists of color. And so again I just thought 98 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: this was the world that I was in. I went 99 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: to grad school. Grad school certainly started to show me 100 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: that perhaps the world I was In was a lot 101 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: whider and a lot mailer than what I thought. But 102 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: it wasn't really until I got a big museum job 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: at the Baltimore Museum of Art and the year two 104 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: thousand where I realized that museums were like there was 105 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: like some carbon half life that I didn't quite understand. 106 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: So like, what was happening in the street, what was 107 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: happening in galleries, what was happening my friends, and what 108 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: was happening in a nascent way at the Whitney was 109 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: not happening in big city museums, was not happening in 110 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: big institutions. And there, you know, I inherited a collection 111 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: where I was literally I think one of the first 112 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: questions I was asked was like, what was I going 113 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: to do with the Bryce Martin paint? You know, like 114 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: nothing in my trajectory got me to that. So I 115 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: realized there was like a gallery critical artist cannon, and 116 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: then there was a museum cannon, and then there was 117 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: an academic cannon, and these cannons didn't align. And I 118 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: think that was really the moment when I realized the 119 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: degree of non alignment in this thing we call the 120 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: art world that we imagine as homogeneous, but in fact 121 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: it is not. And so that's when it started, when 122 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: I began to realize that some of the things I 123 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: took for granted as a young person had just simply 124 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: not been metabolized by the more powerful and in trench 125 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: institutions that kind of pinned down the little art world 126 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: that we all inhabit. We have to take a quick break. 127 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: When we come back, things get a little more personal. 128 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: In episode four, we talked about the Guerrilla Girls, the 129 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: anonymous group of feminist artists who still when we interviewed them, 130 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: did not want to turn on their cameras and would 131 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: not give us their real names. They also talk about 132 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: how if they do go out in public, they wear 133 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: guerrilla masks, which is just funny, but it also protects 134 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: their identities. And there was a real fear of retaliation 135 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: to speak out against art institutions, galleries, museums. But that's 136 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: really different than what happened in twenty fourteen through twenty 137 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: seventeen when Carl Andre's retrospective was protested, and those folks 138 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: who protested around those years were all of our social 139 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: media about it. They were post videos of themselves drowing 140 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: blood on the sidewalk and laying down in galleries as 141 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: if they were a dead body. So that eighties version 142 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: of protesting sexism in this very anonymous way to that 143 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: also feels like a big shift. And I wanted to 144 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: know from you what you think that means about where 145 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: we've come since the eighties. Women did protest on a 146 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: Mendieta's exclusion from the Guggenheim Show. There was a show 147 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: right after she passed, So there have been other moments 148 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: of protests without masks or that, in which people you know, 149 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: were making themselves known to others. But I do think 150 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: that the doggedness of the wear is on a Mendieta hashtag, folks. 151 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: I do think it was part of a generational shift. 152 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,359 Speaker 1: I think most of those women as and this is anecdotal, 153 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: they looked younger to me, and they looked like people 154 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: who had grown up knowing about Anna Mendieta's work already 155 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: in school. And so for those of us who didn't 156 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: know about the work like my generation, and learn about 157 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: the work almost like Sami's dot, which was the thing 158 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: that used to happen old Soviet Union, where like xerox, 159 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: things would get passed around to people because you had 160 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: to stay under the wire of a certain kind of 161 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: censorship radar. That was how a lot of us learned 162 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 1: our feminism, particularly those of us who went on to 163 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: graduate study. You know, the course work was remarkably overwhelmingly 164 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: white and male, and we you know, like when queer 165 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: theory came out, there was no one teaching that. We 166 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: read that on our own in reading groups after hours, 167 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: so to speak, like that was how we did that 168 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: work together. And so what younger people had was the 169 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: like the generation of my generation who then went to 170 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: teach in art schools and you brought that material into 171 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: the class room in new ways. But they also had 172 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: social media. You guys had social media, and you had 173 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: a different starting from Act Up and then to occupy 174 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: and then to Black Lives no matter. You had leaderless movements, 175 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: right like, you had different ways of approaching this problem. 176 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 1: And you also didn't have They didn't have fear. They 177 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: had I think more appropriately, they were disgusted and we're 178 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: letting their disgust be seen. And so that was for 179 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: me as someone in middle age. You know, there's a 180 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: tender period where you're not young and you are not 181 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: an elder, so you don't get any of the benefits 182 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: of the good positions. You just stuck with this shitty 183 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: stuff that you learned and this radical emergent generation nipping 184 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: at your heels, and you got to figure out where 185 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: you are in that, you know, and that was really 186 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: for me very revelatory. You learn about Animandietta Patty when 187 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: you were in art school or I did? Do you remember, 188 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: like what how she was presented? Was it specifically a 189 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: feminist art class or was she part of a larger 190 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: you know? Is she part of all of the things 191 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: that you learn, part of a larger Yeah. But I 192 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: also grew up in Miami. We were all Latinos, I mean, 193 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: like from all over the place. So like if you 194 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: didn't teach us about animandet that we would lest someone 195 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: would be upset. For sure, no doubt I would gladly 196 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: vocalize it. Yeah, I think rightly. So what you're pointing 197 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: at is like technology makes such a big difference, you know. 198 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: And I also think that there's just this understanding. I 199 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: understand the art world as an industry, right. I don't 200 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: see it as this like thing that sits away from 201 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: a market. I see it actually, I see how we 202 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: all kind of are implicit in this industry and market 203 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: that we exist with. And I think in that sense, 204 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: we also know when we're excluded from it and when 205 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: we can enter it. And I think those that sit 206 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: on the periphery we're never going to get in. So 207 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: it's so much easier to just say fuck you. And 208 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, all our faces all are in social media anyways, 209 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: So what are we hiding from? But can I say 210 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: one thing that I think so interesting? When I entered 211 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: the art world, I did not think of it as 212 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: an industry. I thought of it as a place of opposition. 213 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: I wish, yeah, I read about it. Yeah. For me, 214 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: it was not an industry. It was not a profession. 215 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: I never thought anybody was going to make any money. 216 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: I certainly never thought I was going to get a 217 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: job in a museum. Girls like me didn't get jobs 218 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: in museums, you know what I mean. It was a 219 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: friend group, a group of like minded fellow travelers. It 220 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: was a place to live your life so that you 221 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: didn't have to be in an industry, so you didn't 222 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: have to be professionalized. Again, I think all of this 223 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: was patently untrue, But it didn't mean we weren't proceeding 224 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: as if it were possible. Yeah, it's true though, there's 225 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: just different art worlds, right. What I always go back 226 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: to is what art can do. I'm interested in that 227 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: conversation of how art moves and shifts politics, how it's 228 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: able to kind of have a conversation simultaneously with the past, 229 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: with the idea of shifting a future. I still really 230 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: believe that what happens in this sector, this cultural sector 231 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: art world has wild political ramifications. So like the show 232 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: that Anna did with Zerina and then the Heresies. Heresies 233 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: was a feminist journal and a group of people I 234 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: think including Howardina Pidel. They were in the third world 235 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: feminisms issue. Anna did the show at ai R. These 236 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: are feeds that got planted in the seventies and early eighties. 237 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: They're doing that work at the same time Audrey Lord 238 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: is coming up with the idea of identity politics. They're 239 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: doing that work at the same time that there's a 240 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: group of black female academics putting together, you know, edited 241 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: volumes of black feminism. These seeds literally sprung into oak 242 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: trees by the time we get to Ferguson, Like the 243 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: women at the core of Black Lives Matter had read 244 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: all that material right like a tiny, tiny group of 245 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: people did in these alternative spaces, and under these kinds 246 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: of umbrellas took real root and become now foundational texts 247 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: for one of the most important political movements of our 248 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: moment that has changed the way we talk to one 249 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: another and interact with one another. So I, like, I 250 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: have like incredible belief still in this thing that we're 251 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: doing called the art world, no matter how mark getized 252 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: and horrific it can be, and it can be very bad, 253 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: but it has a force that we are maybe not 254 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: even even in the moment aware of, a lot of 255 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: what we talked about in the podcast has to do 256 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: with gatekeepers and how as we're talking about, gatekeeping has 257 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: historically left a lot of people out. I would like 258 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: you to tell us a little bit about how your life, 259 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: experience and identity informs what you want to show and 260 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: what you are not interested in showing. Well, I mean, 261 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: the personal is political. Most of what I learned I 262 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: learned through the people that I was going to school with, 263 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: and we were all Latinos from immigrants number one or 264 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: exiles or like from all sorts of countries in Central 265 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: South America and the Caribbean, and we were not white, 266 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: you know in that sense like I'm spicy white, thank 267 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: you very much. That's how how I identify, if you 268 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: really want to know. And in that sense, yeah, I 269 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: think my experience does inform, like what I'm invested in. 270 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: Especially when I came to the Northeast, the art world 271 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: that I understood was very different than the art world 272 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: that I came to understand here, Like it was not 273 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: one that pointed to the US. It was one that 274 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: pointed out and then the other thing that it did 275 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: was it was very collective versus like clawing at each other. 276 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: So like my experience of the art world is one 277 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: that's very committed to people and to history and futures, 278 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: equitable futures to be exact. But from that experience, I, 279 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: you know, felt very conflicted, and I think I still do. 280 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, in order to survive an industry, right, 281 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: you have to be really selfish and have to be 282 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: about yourself strongly and understand yourself strongly and put yourself forward. 283 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: Where as like I go back to ai R, you know, 284 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: versus a collective. When I think about my thoughts of gatekeeping, Yes, 285 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: I guess I could say and acknowledge that I could 286 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: be a gatekeeper, but I just don't think I've ever 287 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: been so hardly in those positions. I'm trying to do 288 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: the opposite of that, you know, trying to think of 289 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: like how how does the we learn with versus? You know, 290 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: like who can I show versus Nacho? So you want 291 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: to be a gate opener? Yeah, yeah, I am, Well 292 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: how would you tell us how you feel about your 293 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: role as a gatekeeper? Great? Fucking awesome. I didn't even 294 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: know I was a gatekeeper for a long time, to 295 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: be honest, which is this something I shamefully associate with 296 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: my whiteness, a kind of invisibility. I think one of 297 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: the great treacheries of whiteness, and of which we know 298 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: there are many, is one is invisible to oneself. So 299 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in positions of power and don't even 300 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: understand where in them. And I absolutely understood that I 301 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: was in a position of power. But I had confected 302 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: so much onto my own class jumping this way, that 303 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: I had hurdled over boundaries that were everywhere there for 304 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: me to trip over, that I had jumped over them, 305 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: that I hadn't really come to an understanding of myself 306 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: as someone who was a gate keeper in the keeping 307 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: people out model. In my work life, I was often 308 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: in rooms in which I was the only person who 309 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: had gone to public school. I was the only person 310 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: who shared a room with their sibling. I was the 311 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: only person who had people in their family who hadn't 312 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: gone to college. Like I was that person in those rooms, 313 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: and I had chippage around it. And that also prevented 314 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: me from seeing a certain kind of authority that I 315 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: really did have. I had a fantasy about myself that 316 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: was only part true, that I was Robin Hood. Once 317 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: I started seeing all these rich people in museums, I 318 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: was like, I was just gonna take these people's money 319 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: and do the other ships. I thought it was Robin 320 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: Hood that was my jam, and under that jam I did. 321 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: I do still believe a lot of good, but that fantasy, 322 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: and it is a fantasy, blinded me to some of 323 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: the other things that were going on in the structural 324 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: nature of my role. I did not grow up in Miami. 325 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: I grew up here. I grew up in the capitol 326 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. I'm a born and bred New Yorker, 327 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: and every year at PS two nineteen and Flushing Queens, 328 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: some nice school teacher lady took us to the met 329 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: and I grew up thinking that museum belonged to me. 330 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: I grew up very proud. I never paid, you know, 331 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: I had all that like New Yorker kind of like 332 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: you can't fool me. I know this is on cityland, 333 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, all that kind of like hunk Bravado. But 334 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: then I know. My first job was in Baltimore. Was 335 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: the first time I had lived in a city below 336 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: the Mason Dixon line. It was the first time I 337 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: had lived in a majority black city. The racism of 338 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: Baltimore blew me away. And the museum on a hill 339 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: with a statue of Roberty Lee in front of it, 340 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: its relationship to the black populace of the city was 341 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: to say that every fourth grader in Baltimore got to 342 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: come and visit the museum. And I thought, oh, I 343 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: don't know what good that's going to do. And I 344 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: started to figure some stuff out. Like I realized I 345 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: didn't know anything about African American art history. So I 346 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: got all the books out and I started buying work 347 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: by African American artists for the collection because I was 348 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: still very much in a mindset about representation. If we 349 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: put these pictures up and they're pictures of black people, 350 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: by black people, then we have someplace to even start 351 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: to have a conversation in the museum with these fourth 352 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: grade kids, because I did not know how to stand 353 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: in front of a group of young black children and 354 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: explain to them why Bryce Martin was something they needed 355 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: to think about. And so that started me on a 356 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: path that has been, you know, wildly rewarding, and I 357 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: hope has some legacy of efficacy because there's certainly a 358 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: trail of acquisitions behind me. But I know those were 359 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: the terms I was operating under then. I think the 360 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: terms are very different today. We have to take another break. 361 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: When we come back. Audience members who knew Anna, push 362 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: back on how we told her story, stay with us, well, 363 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: I want to start opening us up some questions. I 364 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: know a lot of you are here from the art 365 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: world that you are you work in this industry or community, 366 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: whatever it is, and I am very curious about art 367 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: world reactions to this because I know that telling this 368 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: story of Anna Mendieta and Carl Andre in this very 369 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: public way through true crime lens is maybe a strange 370 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: and uncomfortable thing to have done for a lot of 371 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: people who work inside that world. I am Susan b 372 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: and I'm a member of this gallery for twenty five years, 373 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: and I was actually present at several of the events 374 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: that you describe, so that was very peculiar to hear 375 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I was at her Anna's memorial, I knew her. I'm 376 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: a very uncomfortable thinking of Anna as a victim because 377 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: she was such a lively and strong presence. I think 378 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: her presence is a strong Latina feminist, was very present 379 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: in the feminist circles that I wasn't experiencing, and she 380 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: was very you know, beloved by the other members of 381 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: the gallery. Although I believe she was also a difficult woman. 382 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: I don't think you can be an intelligent woman under 383 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: the terms of patriarchy and not be difficult. I really 384 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: struggle around Anna as a victim. I think it's bigger 385 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: than just Anna as so much as with Anna right, 386 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: because she's someone who has become symbolic, and people who 387 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: become symbolic bear an extra burden. They carry things for 388 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: all of us. When I was an undergraduate in college, 389 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,239 Speaker 1: there was a take Back the Night rally, and I 390 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: didn't want to go. I was such a bad, brash ferrell. Ah, 391 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I've got street smarts. Nobody's going to rape me, justum 392 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: eighteen year old kidship. But as I got older, I 393 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: realized I didn't want to go because I didn't want 394 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: to identify with being a victim. I didn't want to 395 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: give voice to my own fear. Didn't wanna have to 396 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: deal and I still don't with how scared I am 397 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: to get my car from the goddamn parking lot, or 398 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: how scared I am when my wife isn't at home 399 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: at night. And one of the things I thought a 400 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: lot when we encountered resistance, but people who knew Anna 401 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: and loved her and didn't want to talk about her 402 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: in this podcast, and they often said exactly what we said, 403 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: like cannot abide seeing her as a victim. I try 404 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: to think about almost everything I think about now also 405 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: through the lens of whiteness. And one of the things 406 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: I think about whiteness, particularly the white women, is that 407 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: we have access to power through our adjacency to white men, 408 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: and we are keenly aware of the limitations of our 409 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: power because of white men. We are always in this 410 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: double position, and I think we have also trouble with 411 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: acknowledging that we can be victims, that we are not 412 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: in control, that we can be her. We do not 413 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: want to admit this. So I hear you, and I 414 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: hear what you say. I really want to honor it. 415 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: I think she was a fierce, difficult, badass, and it's 416 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: really hard to keep all of that alive. At the 417 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: same time, I just want to say I really appreciate 418 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: your answer, because I think that is why a lot 419 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: of people did not want to talk to you, because 420 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: they're trying to keep the memory alive of her beyond 421 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: this fact of her death. Another question came from someone 422 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: who remains angry at two women, Paula Cooper and Angela Westwater. 423 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: Paula is carl Andre's gallerist, and she stood by him 424 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: during the trial and continues to show his work at 425 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: her gallery. Angela Westwater is an art dealer who had 426 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: a romantic relationship with carl Andre before he got together 427 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: with Anna. Both Paula and Angela declined to be interviewed 428 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: for the podcast The Elephant in the Room, though in 429 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: terms of listening to the episodes, was Paula Cooper and 430 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: maybe more importantly, Angelo Westwater, who were both women that 431 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: went on to have powerful careers and galleries. I was 432 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: a teenager back then, Downtown grew up around this scene. 433 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: So what about Angelo Westwater, who was instrumental in providing 434 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: credibility from a powerful woman dealer that helped get him off? 435 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: What about Paula Cooper? Doesn't she have a responsibility to 436 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: address this? Louisa and I had a running argument, disagreement 437 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: about loyalty and whether or not it was a value. Louisa, 438 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to speak for you. I thank you. 439 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: I think loyalties of value. Paula was loyal to her artist. 440 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: My whole territorial life, I fought from my artist and 441 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: some of them were really assholes, and I went to 442 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: bat for him anyway because I thought that was my job. 443 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: It's one of those situations where there is really no button, 444 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: only an end for me, and the end means that 445 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: there's a kind of aporia in the mix for me. 446 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: And aporia is that one of my favorite words. It 447 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: means the ability to hold in one's mind too thoughts 448 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: that contradict one another. And that's how I feel about 449 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: Paula and Angela, like I am in an oporia, a 450 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: place where I find it very hard to proceed with 451 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: my own thought. And part of that is something that 452 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: it produces another aporia in me, which is I can't 453 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: get to the end of a thing about Animandieta and 454 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: carl Andre and end up being mad at those two women, 455 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: like when it comes right down to it, the misogyny 456 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: that is in all of us. We are all capable 457 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: of blaming a woman before we a whole lot of 458 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: men in the art world starting and Frank Stella from 459 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: writing a check and Larry Weener for being in the car. 460 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: They didn't lose any sleep, So I really do hear you, 461 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: and I can't my angry place. I can't stay there. 462 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: They disagree with you about women in middle age. Between 463 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: the two poles, I think, in fact, you have all 464 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: the power and none of the dementia or lack of 465 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: lack of power, shall we say in your youth. So 466 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: carry on. Now that the podcast is out in the world, 467 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,239 Speaker 1: with the questions asked and answered to the best of 468 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: our current ability, I hope this will be a stepping 469 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: stone to telling honest story in a way which foregrounds 470 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: her incredible body of work, along with the question that 471 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: her work asked us from the start, how will we 472 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: respond when we see evidence of harm and injustice? My 473 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: hope is that we can proceed with clear eyes and 474 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: full hearts to quote Friday Night Lights, and know that 475 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: as we toggle between her life and her art, that 476 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: the brilliance of her work cannot be dimmed by the 477 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: tragedy and travesty of her death. All Right, folks, that's 478 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: it for Death of an Artist once again, thank you 479 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: so very much for listening. Death of an Artist is 480 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: a co production between Pushkin Industries, Something Else and Sony 481 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: Music Entertainment, Written and hosted by me Helen Mouldsworth. Executive 482 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: producers are Lizzie Jacobs, Tom kanegg Leetel Malaude, Jacob Weisberg 483 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: and Lucas Werner. Produced by Maria Louisa Tucker, Editing by 484 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: Lizzie Jacobs. Our managing producer is Jacob Smith. Our associate 485 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: producer is Eloise Linton, Engineering by Jason Gambrell and mastering 486 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: by Sam Baer. Our theme song is by pood Rue. 487 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Patricia Margherita Hernandez, the ai R Gallery, 488 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Wyatt David Glover and Mark Minnig, and to our 489 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: listeners for asking such great questions. If you love this show, 490 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus to listen early, add free, 491 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: and get exclusive bonus content. Look for the Pushkin Plus 492 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. Find 493 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at Sony music 494 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: dot com slash Podcasts