1
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: What's the first thing you think of when I say

2
00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: Carolyn Sett Kennedy.

3
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,160
Speaker 2: This is you know, twelve hand news.

4
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 3: But I do remember reading that their.

5
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 2: Relationship was such that she was in constant communication with

6
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 2: him and would call his office because you know, I

7
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 2: guess this was before texting and emails and things, so

8
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 2: she would call constantly, little check ins, hey how are you,

9
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 2: and even things like sharing what she had for lunch,

10
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,479
Speaker 2: you know, like the early version of sending seventy two texts.

11
00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:44,440
Speaker 3: In a row.

12
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:50,480
Speaker 4: I think that she was a normal person who got

13
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 4: in over her head. I think about my own relationship,

14
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,360
Speaker 4: and I have been known to text my husband really dumb.

15
00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 2: Things over and over again.

16
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 3: And thank god, there.

17
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,000
Speaker 2: Is not an assistant who's having to intercept this communication.

18
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 5: I'm George Severes, I'm Lyarra Smith, and this is United

19
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 5: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

20
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 5: the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect

21
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,560
Speaker 5: of the Kennedy story, and today we're talking about Carolyn

22
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 5: Bissett Kennedy. So Carolyn was JFK. Junior's wife of almost

23
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 5: three years until they both died tragically in a plane

24
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 5: crash in nineteen ninety nine, and JFK Jor was, of

25
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 5: course JFK and Jackie's only son. So let's start at

26
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 5: the beginning, Lyra, who was Carolyn?

27
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,320
Speaker 1: Well, what is so wild about Carolyn is that we

28
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: really don't know which version of her is the truth.

29
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: When she started dating JFK Jor, she was not a celebrity,

30
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 1: and overnight she became this huge star of the tabloids.

31
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: And that coverage was of course like pretty nasty usually

32
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 1: and only interested in the most like salacious and misogynistic takes.

33
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 5: And JFK Junior had already dated like Sarah, Jessica Parker,

34
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 5: Daryl Hannah, Madonna. I mean, she was in this like

35
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 5: long lineage of women that the tabloids became obsessed with

36
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 5: because they were dating JFK Junior. Of course, the difference

37
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 5: being all those other women were already celebrities and already

38
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,799
Speaker 5: famous and had like maybe a team around them, had

39
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 5: some sort of you know, experience with fame that that

40
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 5: she did not. So there's Carolyn, She's the new girlfriend.

41
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 5: And then meanwhile, JFK Junior was America's prince and people's

42
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,639
Speaker 5: sexiest man alive, and he was sort of portrayed as

43
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 5: like a dumb hunk that Carolyn was taking advantage of.

44
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 5: And listen, yes, he did famously fail the bar exam twice,

45
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 5: but I don't think this media narrative was exactly substantiated.

46
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 5: So on the one hand, Carolyn is portrayed as this villain,

47
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,680
Speaker 5: as this unhinged party girl and the tabloids. But then

48
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 5: on the flip side, everything that was written about her

49
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,239
Speaker 5: after her death, especially the biographies that were written about her,

50
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,079
Speaker 5: kind of go too far in the opposite direction. They're

51
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,240
Speaker 5: like overly protective of her image. They try to overcorrect

52
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 5: and they paint her as this perfect woman that was

53
00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 5: caught in circumstances that were outside her control. Or are

54
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 5: they paint her as this like fashion icon in the

55
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 5: world's most fashionable angel.

56
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: And people to this day are still free to apply

57
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,600
Speaker 1: their own assumptions onto her because Carolyn never gave a

58
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 1: single interview. She was very private and there are only

59
00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 1: two clips of her voice that exist online, which is wild.

60
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: Here's the first one. At the Glamourous Fire and Ice

61
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 1: Ball in Hollywood, she went with cousins in law Maria

62
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 1: and Bobby Schweiver and told et she enjoyed herself.

63
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 3: It was very exciting, wonderful evening.

64
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,120
Speaker 6: What was your highlight silight for working the entire evening

65
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 6: was spectacular?

66
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 3: Is no islight? Here's the second one. I think it's

67
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 3: sort of fabulous. I hope they're all sitting with me.

68
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 5: So that's it. That's all we have of Carolyn, And

69
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 5: her actual words are almost beside the point here because

70
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 5: there are so many enduring images of her that defined

71
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 5: who she was to the American public. I honestly think

72
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 5: no matter how much she spoke, she would not be

73
00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,920
Speaker 5: able to escape the images that are burned into Americans' heads.

74
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 5: So we have Carolyn fighting with JFK. Junior in Washington Square.

75
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 3: Park, which is rough. Have you looked at it recently?

76
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 5: I had not looked at it until we started doing

77
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,360
Speaker 5: research for this episode, and it is. I mean, there

78
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 5: is something very kind of vintage tabloid video about it.

79
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,000
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's hard to be shocked by something nowadays,

80
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,320
Speaker 5: but you know, you think people had a lower tolerance

81
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,719
Speaker 5: for drama back then, but you'd be wrong.

82
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, it's just like, yeah, it's like tabloid, but it's

83
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 1: also like almost like cinematic, like he rips the fring

84
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 1: off of her finger, and then the way she's like

85
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 1: pushing on him is like so inappropriate. Like when it

86
00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 1: first starts, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, that's so embarrassing,

87
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 1: Like I've definitely been in a fight with a significant

88
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,840
Speaker 1: other and it's been like an embarrassing place, and you know,

89
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 1: you're hoping nobody notices.

90
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:12,559
Speaker 3: But then it just keeps going.

91
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 5: It does almost seem staged. It seems like, you know,

92
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,479
Speaker 5: if you saw a video like that now, you would

93
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,280
Speaker 5: be saying, those celebrities are just trying to get attention.

94
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:20,920
Speaker 3: That's true.

95
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 5: It's very Heidi and Spencer looking. So let's sort of

96
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,359
Speaker 5: situate ourselves in space and time. We are talking like

97
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 5: mid to late nineties New York City. JFK. Junior is,

98
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,800
Speaker 5: like we said, the most eligible bachelor in New York.

99
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 5: He's this hot, well dressed guy. He's dating all these celebrities,

100
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 5: He's living in Tribeca, he's founding a magazine. He is

101
00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,800
Speaker 5: like the coolest bachelor out there. And he also is

102
00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,159
Speaker 5: not surrounded by security people. He is constantly biking throughout

103
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 5: the city. He's almost like a nineties version of Prince Charming.

104
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 1: And then Carolyn was one of these people that was

105
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 1: famous without social media, but she kind of inhabited the

106
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 1: space of an influencer anyway, the way that she was

107
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,440
Speaker 1: on the weekly, you know, grocery store tabloid magazines, and

108
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,800
Speaker 1: she was kind of a representative of what this like gorgeous,

109
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,679
Speaker 1: chic Manhattan woman looked like in nineties New York.

110
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 5: Which is actually eerily similar to what many wanna be

111
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 5: Sheikh New York women have looked like over the last

112
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 5: few years, which is why The New York Times actually

113
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,839
Speaker 5: called her a quote ghost influencer because of her outsize

114
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 5: impact on fashion and culture. So to help us make

115
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,440
Speaker 5: sense of Carolyn's life and legacy today, we're talking to

116
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,919
Speaker 5: journalists and writer Glennis McNicol. Glennis's latest memoir is called

117
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,719
Speaker 5: I'm Mostly Here to enjoy Myself, and she's written about culture, politics,

118
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,239
Speaker 5: and fashion for The New York Times, New York Magazine,

119
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 5: Rolling Stone, in a bunch of other places. But for

120
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,039
Speaker 5: our purposes, the main reason we wanted to talk to

121
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 5: her is because of a Town and Country article she

122
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 5: wrote in twenty sixteen called who was Carlyn Bessett Kennedy?

123
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 5: The woman who married John F. Kennedy Junior remains a

124
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 5: one woman fashion cult and an enigma. All right, So,

125
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 5: glynnis you are here to talk to us a little

126
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 5: bit about JFK Junior and Carolyn Bissett. JFK Junior and

127
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,119
Speaker 5: Carolyn Bessett as media figures, as tabloid fixtures, as pop

128
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 5: culture figures, as like you know, sort of ghost influencers.

129
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 5: As Vanessa Friedman called Carolyn in the pages of the

130
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 5: New York Times.

131
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 3: That's a good phrase, it really is.

132
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 5: And so I want before we get really into it,

133
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 5: I want to know you know, you write about a

134
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 5: very wide variety of topics. You've written to memoirs, you

135
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 5: have written stuff for the Times, You've written about culture,

136
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 5: You've written about fashion. But Carolyn is someone that you

137
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 5: sort of have returned to many times in your career.

138
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 5: And I wonder what you think that, why you think

139
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 5: that is, What do you think what draws you to her?

140
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I've written about a lot of topics, and

141
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 6: then in twenty sixteen I did a thing about Carolyn

142
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 6: Bassett Kennedy, which which my recollection was when extremely viral,

143
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 6: and I think was sort of one of the first

144
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,720
Speaker 6: pieces to look at her as a standalone figure, and

145
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,160
Speaker 6: you know what she represented and also what her life

146
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 6: was like.

147
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:16,600
Speaker 3: When she was alive.

148
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,400
Speaker 6: And I lived in New York when they were married,

149
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,480
Speaker 6: you know, I arrived in New York in the late nineties,

150
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 6: shortly after they were married. And it's hard to overstate

151
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,520
Speaker 6: the degree to which she captivated everyone's attention. I mean,

152
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 6: I really think you could walk around New York and

153
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 6: figure out everyone who was alive here at the time

154
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 6: by like the absence of their eyebrows, because everyone lost

155
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 6: their eyebrows within like a year of that wedding. You know,

156
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,080
Speaker 6: she was just so all consuming and I think, you know,

157
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,680
Speaker 6: it's been notable to me, like when we talk about herself,

158
00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 6: and maybe I'm jumping ahead, but I think it's hard

159
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 6: to overstate now how shocking she was, how shocking her

160
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:04,840
Speaker 6: appearance was in nineteen ninety six.

161
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 5: I have the.

162
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 6: Clearest memory of you know, the people who lived in

163
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,119
Speaker 6: New York that this is pre the Internet.

164
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,360
Speaker 3: You know, New York was a much more.

165
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,199
Speaker 6: Sort of secular, sealed place separate from America. So I

166
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,440
Speaker 6: think there was people in the fashion industry who obviously

167
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 6: knew who she was because she was head of public

168
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 6: relations for Calvin Klein, and there was people in sort

169
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 6: of the downtown set of New York new she was,

170
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,680
Speaker 6: but nationally and globally no one had any idea who

171
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 6: she was. So they secretly get married on the island,

172
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 6: you know, off the Georgian coast. And that photo on

173
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,079
Speaker 6: the cover of every newspaper the next day of her

174
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 6: in the wedding dress and him kissing her hand was

175
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 6: like a literal stop the press's moment. No one had

176
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 6: seen anything that looked like her. She was so new,

177
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 6: Like I remember watching a Sunday show, the Sunday Political Shows,

178
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 6: which in the nineties was like David Brinkley with like

179
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 6: Kochie Roberts and Sam Donaldson, you know, and George will

180
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 6: and they stopped the show to announce the wedding.

181
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 3: Is how sort.

182
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 6: Of like electrifying it was, And then you know, two

183
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,079
Speaker 6: weeks later, she appears on the doorstep in Tribeca of

184
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 6: their apartment.

185
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 3: Sort of like JFK.

186
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 6: Junior does that very I think hopeful introduction of like

187
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 6: here's my wife, please leave her alone, which of course

188
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 6: you'll think caludicrous. Oh so I just asked any you know,

189
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,080
Speaker 6: Bobacy and Batamon, you can give her she makes as

190
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,040
Speaker 6: justment sometimes you don't really appreciate. And they step outside

191
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,200
Speaker 6: and she had on those knee high product boots and

192
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,760
Speaker 6: that tan Pradat skirt and that v neck and now

193
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 6: we look at it and it looks like like a

194
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 6: chic New York woman who maybe works in you know,

195
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,560
Speaker 6: Vogue magazine or whatever. At the time, it looked like

196
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 6: she derived from Mars. Like you just it looked like

197
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,679
Speaker 6: nothing the world had seen unless you were a person

198
00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 6: who really paid attention to style and fashion. And in

199
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 6: those days when you did, you know, you're still getting

200
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 6: the runway reports, you know, four months later, and maybe

201
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,679
Speaker 6: you're watching fashion television, you know, shut out to Janie

202
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 6: Becker forever, but like you're getting such a delayed version

203
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 6: of it, and it's such a niche.

204
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 3: Thing that to have something like that go global.

205
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 6: Was just stunning, you know, and it rearranged the entire

206
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,079
Speaker 6: wedding industry.

207
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 3: I remember reviving in New York.

208
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,320
Speaker 6: And immediately buying knee high boots, like it was just

209
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 6: sort of like and I could not look less like

210
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 6: Carolyn Wassat, Like I was just like, you're talking about

211
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 6: a tall, thin leven with like straight white line. You know,

212
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 6: buttery chunks, the famous right. You can always tell when

213
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,839
Speaker 6: someone lived in New York at the time too, because

214
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 6: they you say buttery chunks. It's like a password, you know,

215
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 6: it's like a code word for how our hair was described.

216
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 6: But like you saw all these women who were like

217
00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 6: trying to embody this image of this woman who they

218
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 6: looked nothing, nothing like, and it was just sort of

219
00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,040
Speaker 6: just amazing and amazingly original. And what's so interesting to

220
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 6: me about the originality of it is how it it's

221
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,080
Speaker 6: now like a timeless style.

222
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,840
Speaker 3: You know, now it just looks.

223
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 6: Like like, you know, quiet luxury or in those days

224
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 6: it was called minimalism. But at the time it would

225
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 6: just felt like an electric like you've been hit by lightning.

226
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,320
Speaker 3: Honestly, what were people used to seeing? Like what was

227
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,800
Speaker 3: like street style before?

228
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 6: Interesting unless you lived in New York, I mean what

229
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,199
Speaker 6: your street saw it was like dependent on the neighborhood

230
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,559
Speaker 6: you lived in, because of course you're getting this broadcast

231
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,719
Speaker 6: like everything is so delayed. You're dependent on magazines and

232
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 6: if you're outside sort of the New York indie magazine scene,

233
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 6: you know, you're looking to Vogue. Was you know you

234
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 6: wrought I have entire issues of Vogue committed to memory.

235
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 6: You'd run to the magazine store, you'd get it in

236
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,160
Speaker 6: the mail, and it would be the.

237
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 3: Thing you would have for a month.

238
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,199
Speaker 6: And I remember when w magazine launched or relaunched sort

239
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,560
Speaker 6: of in the mid nineties with that bigger format, and

240
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,319
Speaker 6: it looked it was so interesting because it had sort

241
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 6: of a different vibe and it felt edgier. And Kate Moss,

242
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,439
Speaker 6: of course, was you know, the edgy model at the time,

243
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 6: and a lot of it was coming through music videos.

244
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 6: So you're looking at sort of the you know, the

245
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 6: grunge era of the early nineties, which was fun and

246
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 6: very you know, like Win on a Rider and you

247
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 6: know Ethan Hawk Win and not say anything what was

248
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 6: their famous reality reality bites. But so this comes along

249
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,560
Speaker 6: and it's like well, and then of course she's on

250
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 6: the arm of JFK. Junior, who even if you're not

251
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,760
Speaker 6: a Kennedy, you know, I'm Canadian and so I was

252
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 6: this was all coming to me and university in Vancouver,

253
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 6: you know, in nineteen ninety six, and like you have

254
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 6: a vague awareness of what the Kennedys mean, and he

255
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 6: had launched George Magazine. You know a year earlier, but

256
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,320
Speaker 6: you don't really understand the vernacular of all this because

257
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 6: we did not have access to information in the same way.

258
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,079
Speaker 3: So you just start responding to all this much differently,

259
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,400
Speaker 3: and like.

260
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 6: Parsing little phrases in Vogue, like the early the opening

261
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 6: pages of Vogue were sort of, I guess, in early

262
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 6: version of street style, but they were really peopled by like.

263
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 3: Upper east Side social lightes.

264
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,079
Speaker 6: Like my knowledge of upfer east Side social lights in

265
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety six is bizarrely comprehensive because they still wielded

266
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 6: power in a way that they absolutely do not know,

267
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 6: and so that I think because of that, she sort

268
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 6: of blasted onto the scene in this very clean image.

269
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 6: It's interesting to me that these three women that I

270
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 6: think dominated the second half of the nineties were all

271
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 6: New York based and all.

272
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 3: Came through Calvin Klein to some degree.

273
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 6: Right, You've got Kate Moss, who was sort of grungy

274
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 6: but was making that shift in the mid nineties. Gwynis

275
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 6: came up, and again gwyn it's another person who was

276
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 6: much more people were much more aware of within New

277
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 6: York because she was in New York, or who went

278
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 6: to Spence marm when I lived in Williamsburg in the

279
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 6: late nineties. All of these group Spence graduates who were

280
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 6: sort of rebelling against their family by moving to Brooklyn

281
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,040
Speaker 6: all had a lot of opinion about Gwyneth because they

282
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 6: rubbed shoulders with her at Spence at some time. So

283
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 6: you had like this insular world of New York colliding

284
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 6: with sort of a global awareness. But I think Carolyn,

285
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 6: more than Gwynneth, had a very like a strict almost

286
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 6: an armor. She shifted, you know, she left Calvin Klein

287
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 6: six months before the wedding, quit her job and never

288
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 6: appeared in Calvin again. Right like, she shifted and started

289
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,480
Speaker 6: almost exclusively wearing Yogi and Prada after that, which is

290
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 6: a really mature.

291
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 3: Fashion decisions that you weren't seeing.

292
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,720
Speaker 6: I mean, Gwyneth is, you know, ten years to our

293
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 6: home years younger was much more in sort of like experimenting.

294
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 6: But they all came through this, you know, this Calvin

295
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 6: Klein machine to some degree. And it's worth remembering that

296
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 6: in the mid nineties, Calvin was the most powerful fashion person, you.

297
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,320
Speaker 3: Know, not just an America, in the world.

298
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 6: And you know those famous White offices, I think they

299
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 6: were at sixtieth and I want to say Madison, and

300
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,360
Speaker 6: he like rumor had it that he had there was

301
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 6: like the beautiful floor at Calvin, that everyone had to

302
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 6: work on that flora to be beautiful, and like Carolyn

303
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 6: was ruling the roost and she was his muse. And

304
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 6: so there's all, you know, the insider gossip that you

305
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 6: would get you brush up against that wouldn't have made

306
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 6: no sense to anyone else, you know, outside the confines

307
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 6: of a rather insular world at the time.

308
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 5: Sure, the Yogi stuff is so interesting because you sort

309
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 5: of you think of her as such an icon of

310
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 5: like a certain kind of preppiness, and then you realize

311
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 5: she's wearing yogi. She's wearing these like avant garde Japanese

312
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 5: lately things like on the red carpet of like a

313
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 5: gala or something.

314
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, which she almost.

315
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 6: Never went to, she like, but to your point, just

316
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,680
Speaker 6: to stick with it with the thread, like when you

317
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 6: look at the transition she sort of went even with

318
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 6: her hair, like she sort of went through this sort

319
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 6: of care free, relaxed image when she was dating JFK. Junior,

320
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 6: and almost immediately overnight the dressing becomes very strict and

321
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 6: it's I almost I liken it to like an armor

322
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 6: like she was. So it's hard to imagine that even

323
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 6: with preparation, anyone's prepared for the kind of spotlight that

324
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,119
Speaker 6: she had thrust on her and the cruelty of it.

325
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 6: I mean, that famous Newsweek cover story which literally dissected

326
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,480
Speaker 6: her bit by bit and her appearance and what she done.

327
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 6: It was very I mean really think of the nineties

328
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 6: as progressive, and it was in comparison to what preceded it,

329
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,679
Speaker 6: but it's really it's so regressive and just you know,

330
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,879
Speaker 6: and you it's easier to imagine that she that closed

331
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 6: for her became like almost a literal protective shell because

332
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 6: she stops almost showing skin.

333
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's like a big part of

334
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,840
Speaker 1: understanding this place and time now is that we have

335
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 1: an idea, like we grew up with paparazzi shots being

336
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,120
Speaker 1: like the norm and having I guess kind of this

337
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 1: like assumption that that's part of the deal. You're you're

338
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: signing up for this public life, and that means that

339
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: you have not just less privacy or limited privacy, it

340
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,159
Speaker 1: means you have absolutely no more privacy. I mean, the

341
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 1: way that we Live Today with paparazzi like in trees

342
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: using zoom lens to like get actresses tanning in their backyard, Like,

343
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, It's just there's absolutely nothing. And it

344
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,880
Speaker 1: reminds me of one of the criticisms or talking points

345
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 1: around Harry and Megan is that people would say, didn't

346
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,400
Speaker 1: you know what you were signing up for? Which it's

347
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: like not even necessarily fair in that respect because it's

348
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,360
Speaker 1: you don't know what it's like to join the royal family, but.

349
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 5: This is our royal family, right, and Carolyn was sort

350
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 5: of understanding what she quote unquote signed up for in

351
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,960
Speaker 5: real time. Like one of the in our research, one

352
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 5: of the things we were reading about is like how

353
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 5: Princess Diana's death was so I mean, it was shocking

354
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 5: for everyone, but it was like so shocking for her

355
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 5: because she sort of saw her own future as she

356
00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 5: was like signing up for this completely. I really want

357
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 5: to talk more about the fashion stuff, but I want

358
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 5: to take a step back a little bit and just

359
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 5: talk about, you know, where Carolyn came from. So you

360
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 5: know the three girls you mentioned Gwen at this Hollywood Royalty.

361
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 5: Kate Moss is obviously a supermodel. She's also British, which

362
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 5: always carries a short of glamour for an American audience.

363
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 5: Carolyn is neither of those things. Like where did Carolyn

364
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 5: come from? And how did she land in New York?

365
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 6: An interesting side note to that, you know, Kate Moss

366
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 6: and Carolyn Bassett lived in the same apartment building at

367
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 6: the same time in Greenwich Village and when they were

368
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,119
Speaker 6: when she was dating Michael Bergen and Kate Moss was

369
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 6: dating Johnny Depp, which I always think it's like right

370
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 6: next door to Mario Batally's restaurant whatever it is down

371
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 6: on just beside Washington Square Park. But Carolyn came from

372
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 6: she her mother divorced her father. I think she was

373
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 6: born in White Plains. They moved to Greenwich, Connecticut. Her

374
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 6: mom was a school teacher, her stepfather was a doctor.

375
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 6: She had two older sisters, one of whom obviously died

376
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 6: in the plane crash with them who were twins, and

377
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 6: both her older sisters were incredibly successful in their fields.

378
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 6: One is an academic and one was an academic or

379
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 6: a business person, and the other is an academic.

380
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 3: And Carolyn, by all accounts, was you know, the.

381
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 6: Popular girl in school who didn't excel necessarily at academics

382
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 6: didn't fail at it either by all accounts, but like

383
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 6: was not operating at that sort of high level, but

384
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 6: excelled at personal skills. Goes to university at Boston University

385
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 6: majors in childcare, which is sort of amusing, but also

386
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 6: as a grown up now you look back and you're like,

387
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 6: you see a person who's like, I don't know, sounding,

388
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 6: you know, like that sort of like that thing that

389
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 6: we might have all experienced, and who gets a job

390
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 6: upon graduation, had a mall in Boston working for Calvin Klein,

391
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 6: where she is scouted by Paul Wilmot I think, who

392
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 6: was an exec at Calvinklin at the time, and sort

393
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 6: of high tails it. They bring her to Manhattan because

394
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 6: they clearly recognize somebody who has bigger fish to fry,

395
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 6: and she she's quite young still right, She was only

396
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 6: thirty three when she died, so you'd be backtracked this timeline.

397
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 6: She's in her mid twenties, gets brought down to New

398
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 6: York installed as a VIP shopper for high end clients,

399
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 6: which I mean, I keep going back to this, but

400
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 6: at the time this was reported, I highly doubt anyone

401
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 6: outside the confines of a very wealthy strata even understood

402
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 6: what that meant. Now, of course we all have a

403
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 6: different language for this, but like she's waiting on you know,

404
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 6: Anette Benning and Diane Sawyer, and in the early articles

405
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 6: they would reflect on like you'd walk in and she

406
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 6: was a brunette at this time still you know, she

407
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 6: had like long, flowy hair and would wear leggings and

408
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 6: a white button down and everybody would try and want to.

409
00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 3: Look like her.

410
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 6: And she quickly rises up the ranks of Calvin Klein

411
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 6: exects from shopgirl to head of publicity who's running the

412
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 6: shows and setting all this up like at lightning speed.

413
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 6: It's really extraordinary to think that by the time she's

414
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 6: sort of twenty seven years old and within five years

415
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 6: she goes from working at a mall in Boston to

416
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 6: being the head of publicity for the most influential and

417
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 6: like hip and like cool, like Calvin's so cool at

418
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 6: this time and so energy, where she's like running these

419
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 6: enormous shows, and that is you know that I think

420
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 6: that speaks to a person who I think we all know,

421
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 6: these people who were meant to be in New York, right,

422
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 6: like a person who excels at being a New Yorker

423
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 6: and is you know, by all accounts, you know, quite

424
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 6: well known in the downtown scene, dating Michael Bergen, who

425
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 6: was the big supermodel. You know, there's that famous Candice

426
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,239
Speaker 6: Bushnel invites Michael Bergen over to her apartment for one

427
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 6: of those early Sex in the City's columns she does

428
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 6: for The New York Observer and starts, you know, he's

429
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 6: the hottest guy, and you know, insinuates that they she

430
00:22:58,880 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 6: sleeps with home.

431
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 3: If you go back and read that piece, that's quite

432
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: I think it's still on the website.

433
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 6: But like so like she's she's in the zeitgeist, and

434
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 6: there's i know more has come out recently, but there

435
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 6: was all these.

436
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: Varying stories of how her and JFK.

437
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 6: Junior met, like he came in to go shopping, or

438
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 6: they met in Central Park and he was still dating Daryl.

439
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 3: Hannah at the time, and then they dated a bit

440
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: and then they broke up. You know, like there was

441
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 3: a sort of you know, back and forth with it.

442
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 5: And her and Daryl Hannah overlapped quite a bit, right.

443
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: It was like in yes, because it was the first

444
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 3: photo of her and JFK. Junior.

445
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 6: They're at the like nineteen ninety two Marasons, sitting on

446
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 6: a sidewalk, and then cut to you know, then Jackie,

447
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 6: I think, is diagnosed and he goes back to Darryl

448
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 6: who knows how many people JFK.

449
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 3: I mean, he's JFK.

450
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 6: Junior. I don't think he was a player necessarily, but

451
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 6: clearly not lacking for a lot of attention. So he

452
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 6: goes back to Daryl Hannah, and then I think it

453
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 6: gets a little cloudy after that, Like who's to say

454
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 6: that actually happens, But clearly he's compelled by her, right,

455
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 6: Like she's not necessarily chasing him in a way that

456
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 6: I imagine had to have been very attractive for a

457
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 6: person who was used to being chased. And I think too,

458
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 6: maybe this is common knowledge, but like JFK. Junior was

459
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 6: very much, very accessible on the streets of New York.

460
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 6: He rollerbladed or rode his bike everywhere. They notably, I mean,

461
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 6: for all the struggles she had after the marriage with attention,

462
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 6: they never left that Tribeca apartment which didn't have a doorman,

463
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 6: you know, like he had really rejected that Upper East

464
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 6: Side upbringing and I might think I might have written

465
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 6: this somewhere, But when I was a waitress and grown

466
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 6: into village, the chef who ran the kitchen, you stopped

467
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 6: at how nice jfk. Junior was. He would come into

468
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 6: the restaurant for like just stand at the bar and

469
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 6: have a beer and like talk up the basketball game.

470
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 6: Like he was very much tried to insinuate himself into

471
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 6: the day to day of New York. And even after

472
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 6: they were married, she would show up to dinner, you know,

473
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 6: dressed to the nine, stepping out of a cab, and

474
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 6: he would show up on his bike, you know, with

475
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 6: like you know, his bike lock wrapped across his suit.

476
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 3: So you know, he was very New Yorkers really loved him.

477
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 6: And how they eventually committed to one another, I think

478
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 6: he was under enormous pressure at that. It's funny to

479
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 6: think of now because we think of age differently, but

480
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,239
Speaker 6: he was thirty or when they started dating, or thirty one.

481
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 6: It's like, why aren't you married, Jed, aren't you a

482
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 6: serious person? And you know that sort of thing. But

483
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 6: I think from when they finally got together, she moved

484
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 6: in pretty quickly, but she and they were engaged somewhat quickly.

485
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 6: I think that timeline is you know, who knows what

486
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 6: the specifics are.

487
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: That trajectory is so wild. I feel like if it

488
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: was in a movie, you wouldn't believe that, Like it

489
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: just couldn't be, Like it would take you out of it,

490
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: and it is like.

491
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 7: Also, we learned that in her high school superlatives, they

492
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 7: invented a new category for her that was the ultimate

493
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 7: beautiful person, right.

494
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: Which is so interesting to me too.

495
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 6: If you look back at those photos, she doesn't necessarily

496
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 6: she looks like a suburban Catholic school girl with long hair, right,

497
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 6: she does stop you dead in your tracks. And so

498
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 6: I think when you hear superlatives attached to her, even

499
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 6: early on, you recognize so much of what was compelling

500
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 6: about her was in person and her personality and how

501
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 6: she made people feel in real life that sometimes was

502
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 6: not conveyed through the camera. And of course she never

503
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 6: gave an interview, only like four seconds of her voice

504
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 6: ever on records. So to extrapolate from those responses to her,

505
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 6: I think in it begins to make more sense why

506
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 6: he had such a reaction to her, and like why

507
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 6: that might be so attractive to him to have such

508
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 6: an a live person, as a person who was used

509
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 6: to being the subject of so much attention and who

510
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 6: grew up you know, I mean, he grew up on

511
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 6: ten forty fifth Avenue for the most part, right, Like,

512
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 6: I think that you can really see like attaching onto

513
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 6: the lifeblood of what she clearly brought, because you don't

514
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 6: succeed at Calvin or fashion in those days without having

515
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 6: you know, an enormous ability to be personable and deal

516
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 6: with you know, complicated, high profile people. Like really thinking

517
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 6: that through, I think I don't think she ever gets

518
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 6: enough credit for the success that she achieved before she

519
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 6: became you know, his wife.

520
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: Just think to think about how good she had to

521
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 3: be in what she did.

522
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 6: And in that New York right in that highly charged

523
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 6: New York environment where people wielded so much power and

524
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 6: a not a lot of there wasn't a lot of accountability,

525
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 6: right like, to really operate in those in that world.

526
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 5: I also want to talk a little bit about the

527
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 5: kind of like media portrayal of Carolyn. I mean, one

528
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 5: of the passages in your Town and Country article was

529
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 5: just that. I mean, it says you say, she was

530
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: quote forced into the multitude of unforgiving tropes for public women,

531
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 5: the scheming girlfriend, the coked up vixen, the miserable spouse.

532
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 5: And it's funny. I was the I was reading what

533
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 5: you wrote now a few years later, and I feel

534
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 5: like it was I don't know if if this was

535
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 5: conscious or not, but it was during this time. You

536
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 5: wrote it, during this time when there was a real

537
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 5: appetite for reevaluating like women in the nineties and how

538
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 5: they were treated by the press. It was very like,

539
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 5: how did we treat Monica Lewinski, How did we treat

540
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 5: Princess Diana? How did we treat you know whoever? Else?

541
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 5: And I was wondering if you could talk a little

542
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 5: bit more about like the kind of media archetypes that

543
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 5: she fit into.

544
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, that time when I wrote it, you know Hillary,

545
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 6: I remember the date of publication, but it was when

546
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 6: Hillary was running against Trump, and I think we were

547
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 6: having a real cultural, you know, for lack of a

548
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 6: better phrase, come to Jesus moment about how so many

549
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 6: women had been put through the grinder.

550
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: Hillary included.

551
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 6: On the one hand, Carolyn was introduced to many people

552
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 6: because her and JFT Junior had a huge fight in

553
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 6: Washington Square Park, I believe where it got like they

554
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 6: were pushing each other and he ripped the ring off

555
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 6: her finger, and like it looked physical, but physical, more

556
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 6: physical on her part than on his. And to your

557
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 6: earlier point about sort of tabloid press, the mid nineties

558
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 6: was the beginnings of that truly invasive tabloid press.

559
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: And they got caught, you know.

560
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 6: I think George Rush said, I don't remember what they

561
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 6: got for that video, but it was in the hundreds

562
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 6: of thousands of dollars in the mid nineties, and inside

563
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 6: addition ran it. And so to make that to emerge

564
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 6: into a public consciousness in that manner, I think was

565
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 6: something she probably struggled to overcome.

566
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: In addition to that.

567
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 6: It's I think necessary to recall that the whole world

568
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 6: had known had been introduced to John F. Kennedy Junior

569
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 6: as the little boy salutes his father at the assassination,

570
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 6: and that moment was so like, we are having sort

571
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 6: of similar reactions to Harry and William in terms of

572
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 6: the funeral procession, right Like you feel a protective nature

573
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 6: over them.

574
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: And so it's like she emerged into a world with.

575
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 6: Like a global mother in law, right Like, it's like

576
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 6: everybody has an opinion. And then in addition to that,

577
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 6: I think because she never gave an interview, which you

578
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 6: sort of understand, is a way to maintain control.

579
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: She sort of is, you know, the Garbo.

580
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 6: Ask in a way that she then becomes a blank

581
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 6: slate for culture to put assumptions onto. And where narratives

582
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 6: of women are concerned, we have still fairly narrow ones

583
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 6: that you can see playing out still, you know, and

584
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 6: you can see people embodying. So she is the you know,

585
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 6: the caddie angry girlfriend in the video.

586
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: She then becomes the is she good enough to marry? JFK. Junior?

587
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 6: Let's take her apart piece by piece, and by the way,

588
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 6: she's not ingratiating herself to the world in any way

589
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 6: that makes the world sympathetic. She comes out of a

590
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 6: Manhattan fashion world that is both appealing and mystifying, but

591
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 6: to the so called middle of the country, which I

592
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 6: think often gets a bad rap, is like a eat

593
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 6: and inaccessible.

594
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 3: And you combine all these things with this.

595
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 6: Very carefully curated appearance, and you don't have someone who

596
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 6: is projecting an image that make people want to be

597
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 6: protective or friends with her or have warm feelings towards

598
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 6: or you've both taken the sort of the image of

599
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 6: JFK Junior of everyone's prince Charming, attached it to a

600
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 6: woman who has no interest in making things easier for you.

601
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: And it's like the comments.

602
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 6: It was so interesting to me after the plane crash

603
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 6: that these articles suddenly emerged about, like these sort of

604
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 6: nice articles about care and they weren't even that nice

605
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 6: at the time either, but there was sort of these

606
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 6: sympathetic articles, and I was like, wow, it takes this

607
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 6: violent end to her life for anyone to have something nice.

608
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 6: And you know, I don't know how many close female

609
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 6: friends she had, but everybody around them clammed up immediately,

610
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 6: Like I think it speaks to both of them that

611
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 6: no one. The degree of silence around them by anyone

612
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 6: who knew them personally lasted nearly twenty five years, which

613
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 6: I think doesn't it's not out of fear, but I

614
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 6: think there was a in the people in their lives

615
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 6: did feel protective about both of them. So when you

616
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 6: offer people an outline of a woman and say, you know,

617
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 6: fill this up with whatever you think applies, you know,

618
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 6: we have very familiar tropes that we see out play

619
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 6: out over reality television constantly, right, Like she's sort of

620
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 6: a reality television in real life.

621
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: And Diana was the same way.

622
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 6: And I think Diana lived longer and began to wield

623
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 6: a lot of power from her position, using some of

624
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 6: those tropes to her advantage. But of course, Carolyn and

625
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 6: John were only married for a thousand days, you know,

626
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 6: like she barely had time as much pr experience as

627
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 6: she brought to that role. She barely had time to

628
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 6: sort of own it or find her way around it

629
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 6: before it was over.

630
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: You can't win in that position, and it does seem

631
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: like she knew that.

632
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 6: Has ever won in that position, Like when we look

633
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 6: at all famous women.

634
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: Jackie was loathed, you know, and she was criticized during

635
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: the marriage to the President.

636
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 6: She was loathed obviously during the Onnasas marriage to a degree,

637
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 6: you know, I think with everything controversial.

638
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 3: And you can expand this, extrapolate.

639
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 6: This out to many more figures in Muhammad Ali, you

640
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 6: can distrapolated out to buildings, like we have such a

641
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 6: nostalgia for the World Trade Center. People hated the world

642
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 6: to the Twin Towers when they were built, Like it's

643
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 6: just the key to getting people's love is just to

644
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 6: survive for a long period of time until they can't

645
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 6: get rid of you and suddenly decide they like you.

646
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 6: And she was so briefly here and clearly was not

647
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 6: a personality who was interested in making things easy for

648
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 6: the world. And good on her, but I mean I

649
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 6: think it made things much more difficult.

650
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: And you know JFK.

651
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 6: Junior seemed like a reasonably nice person, but he was

652
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 6: also a person of enormous privilege who you know, lived

653
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 6: in this world his whole life. And I don't know

654
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 6: how much family support she recved around this experience, because

655
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 6: you're still coming at a time where it was like

656
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 6: fit you know, march to the be druma I think

657
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 6: similar to probably what Diana experienced with the Royal family

658
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 6: in a slightly different way, probably, but overwhelmingly so.

659
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you mentioned Jackie as another woman who

660
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 5: sort of was both built up and torn down by

661
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 5: the press. I mean she was also, despite all the criticism,

662
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 5: was a real international media start. Like I've talked about

663
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 5: this with Lira A. Loh, but my family is Greek

664
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 5: and during the Onassis era, like everyone in my family

665
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 5: talks about how big of a deal it was that Jackie,

666
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 5: Oh was in Greece, and that she was like she

667
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 5: like at some point, you know, you know, would say

668
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,959
Speaker 5: positive things about Greece and positive things about the history,

669
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 5: and it was such an honor that she was in

670
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 5: the country. Whatever. But the relationship between Jackie and Carolyn

671
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 5: is interesting because well, first of all, there was none

672
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 5: they famously never met, but also there was this enduring

673
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 5: idea that part of what drew JFK Junior to Carolyn

674
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 5: was her similarities with his mother, like her being this

675
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 5: like strong willed woman and you know, independent and all

676
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 5: this stuff. But at the same time, she the rumor

677
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 5: was that she'd disapproved of the relationship. So what is

678
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 5: your like conception of the relationship between the two.

679
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: Did jack you have an opinion about Carolyn Massett? I've

680
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: I struggle.

681
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 6: We know that Jackie was not, you know, over the

682
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 6: moon about the Daryl Hannah relationship, because as much as

683
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 6: jack John wanted to be an actor, Jackie was like,

684
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 6: you know, absolutely not, this is not the direction this

685
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 6: is going. I mean, I do think everyone has agency

686
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 6: over their lives, but I do think like on the

687
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 6: grand scope of how Kennedy' children have turned out, John

688
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 6: and Caroline Kennedy both turned out pretty well, and that

689
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 6: speaks to sort of Jackie's you.

690
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: Know, resolve in their upbringing.

691
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 6: I would be highly skeptical if Jackie had any opinion

692
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 6: about Carolyn Bassett. I think he was still with Darryl

693
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 6: for all intense purposes while Jackie was dying. She was

694
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 6: diagnosed and died very quickly. I think it was like

695
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 6: six months from the diagnosis to her death.

696
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

697
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 6: I think those are Jackie herself was such an enormous figure.

698
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 6: I think those narratives are easy for people to put

699
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 6: on in hindsight or even at the time as just

700
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 6: like easy narratives. But I would be skeptical if there

701
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 6: was any relationship. I think probably the fact she wasn't

702
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 6: a famous person and had a real job would have

703
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 6: been very appealing. And I imagine Carolyn the set probably

704
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 6: suffered for not having Jackies around as a sort of

705
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 6: guide or like an entree and that Lee Radswell or

706
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 6: protector exactly or even just like opening the door to

707
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 6: that Upper east Side society. And I think, you know,

708
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 6: Lee radswelld did do that to some degree or tried to.

709
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 6: But I think sometimes you know that book that came

710
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 6: out about Carolyn to set last year, like The Happily

711
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 6: Ever After Whatever's called. I always think that we don't

712
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 6: do justice to women when we take away that they

713
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 6: might be like deeply complicated and sometimes not very likable. Right, Like,

714
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 6: who's to say to be the person who takes themselves

715
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 6: from you know, the suburbs of Greenwich to the upper

716
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 6: echelon of Calvin Kleine and Mary's John F.

717
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 3: K Junior.

718
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 6: Who's to say the decisions you're making or like the

719
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 6: power You're clearly a person attracted to power who is

720
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 6: making powerful decisions.

721
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: And you know, manipulative gets such a bad rap as

722
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: a word attached to women.

723
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 6: But like a person who sees who's moving with intention,

724
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 6: and like taking that away from her and making her

725
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 6: seem like this sort of like golden figure, I think

726
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 6: really diminishes what is so interesting and compelling to her.

727
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 6: Maybe her EJACU would have hated each other, like who knows?

728
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: Who knows?

729
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 6: I think her and Caroline Kennedy did not get along well,

730
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 6: but who even knows.

731
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 3: The nature of that? Right, Like it's it's so like.

732
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 6: Carolyn was probably making choices too, and not probably she

733
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 6: definitely was.

734
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 3: But it's also notable to me, like she.

735
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 6: Had this entree into society, so called New York society

736
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 6: that she had she was familiar with because as a

737
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 6: VIP shopper and one with Colvin Klein, she obviously knew

738
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 6: all of these people. And she made no effort to

739
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 6: step into that role whatsoever, like not not joining a board,

740
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 6: not joining a fundraiser, not doing any of the work

741
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 6: that you associate with the Upper East Side, for lack

742
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 6: of a better term, and like her refusal to participate

743
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 6: in that also speaks volumes. Was it claustrophobia, is it agoraphobio?

744
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 6: Is it like I have no interest in this world?

745
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 6: Like what was she doing? She basically disappeared into that

746
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 6: apartment for three years. You can count, you don't need

747
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 6: two hands to count the events that she went to,

748
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 6: some of which were funerals. Like it's really intense the

749
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 6: degree to which she silenced herself after that wedding, Like

750
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 6: to go from being so successful to just literally disappearing

751
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 6: makes me sad for her, and like in a way

752
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 6: of like, is there are we talking about like depression

753
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 6: or anxiety in a way that we didn't have a

754
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 6: language for at the time, or all of these other

755
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 6: things that is complicated to attached to a person you've

756
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 6: never met, but like it was so severe, and then

757
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 6: you know, Candis Bergen had that theory that pops up

758
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 6: in one of.

759
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 3: Her novels, The Four Blondes.

760
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 6: There was like a Carolyn Bassett figure in that book,

761
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 6: and who was complaining that the paparazzi never or magazines

762
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 6: never published a photo of her smiling, which is very true.

763
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 6: The first photo of her smiling like appears, not including

764
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 6: the wedding photo, appears in like nineteen ninety nine, two

765
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 6: months before they died. Like in what now that we

766
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 6: all have access to Getty images archives, you can see

767
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 6: that that's not always the case. That she looked unhappy

768
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 6: and like angry, but you can see there was choices

769
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 6: being made to attach this you know, emotion to her.

770
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 6: That Candice Bergen book, I mean, I don't have to

771
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 6: put this in the podcast. But when that happily ever

772
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 6: after book or print up, whatever the book was, that

773
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 6: it was the best seller, lestory came out and the

774
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 6: prologue was like I lived in New York at the time,

775
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 6: but like most people, I wasn't paying attention to Carolyn Bassett,

776
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 6: and I was like, I can't read the rest of

777
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 6: this book.

778
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: You have no idea what you're talking about.

779
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 5: Well, honestly, it's funny. We were like sort of brainstorming

780
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 5: people for the episode. And either you either have the

781
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 5: sort of like vulturous tabloid people that you know, get

782
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 5: off on gossip and whatever else, or you have on

783
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 5: the other side, exactly what you're saying, like this completely

784
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 5: intellectually dishonest, like a counter you know, like over correction,

785
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 5: where it's like she was an angel and she was

786
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 5: like the perfect woman and she was silenced by the media,

787
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 5: which is not also.

788
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: Not true, not true at all.

789
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 6: I don't think. I mean, I'd be so much more

790
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 6: interested to hear. You can find it in Instagram comments

791
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 6: sometimes what's her name, Liz?

792
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: What her name?

793
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 6: Does all the sort of nostalgia Instagram posts, and she

794
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 6: did that podcast with the early Levy. If you go

795
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 6: into the comments of her posts, sometimes you can find

796
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 6: former coworkers at Calvin Klein who are like, yeah, she

797
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 6: was a lot to deal with, but of course nobody

798
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 6: wants to be the person I remember talking to, like

799
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 6: someone who went to college with her who was a

800
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 6: friend of mine who would never go on the record

801
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 6: saying stuff, but she was like she was like a

802
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 6: very compelling person, but also she was a lot to

803
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 6: deal with, and like that.

804
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 3: As a grown up who's lived.

805
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 6: In New York for a long time, you you understand

806
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 6: what that means, and you understand what who the people

807
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 6: are who succeed in this city and how they succeed,

808
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 6: and all due respect to those people, but those complicated figures,

809
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 6: particularly where beautiful women are concerned, do not translate to

810
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 6: the world at large in easy ways.

811
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's funny, like there's this idea of the eternal

812
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 5: unknowability of Carolinbasset. But honestly, I'm sure you agree with this.

813
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 5: There are so many people we know in New York

814
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 5: that are actually pretty similar or are trying to be

815
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 5: very similar. It's like it's such a type. I mean,

816
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 5: it's like it is a type of person I know

817
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 5: and I interact with. And it's like people that when

818
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 5: you first meet them, they're a little rude to you

819
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 5: and you're like, did I do something? But then you

820
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 5: start but then someone tells you, oh, no, she's just

821
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 5: like that exactly. It's like this thing exactly. I don't

822
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 5: hoe the book just like that. I mean, yeah, because

823
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 5: it's and there's actually something. Yes, it's calculating in a way.

824
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 5: And of course she's attractive power as you're saying. But

825
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 5: also people just have their personalities, and like some people

826
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 5: are more introverted, some people are more outspoken, some people

827
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 5: can help themselves and sort of put their foot in

828
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 5: their mouth like and there are just some people that

829
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 5: are this kind of you know, like Forloren Glamour.

830
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 3: But that's just a great phrase.

831
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 6: I also think New York rewards certain personalities, right, Like

832
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 6: New York is a place that rewards a certain personality type.

833
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 6: And also when you look at the physical transformation she underwent,

834
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 6: and this is before I mean botox didn't arrive until

835
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 6: two thousand and two or something like. This is before

836
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 6: we had access to all of these things. She underwent

837
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 6: a physical transformation at her own hands that is so

838
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 6: extreme within a five year period that what it telegraphs

839
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 6: to me is a woman who read the room like

840
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 6: as woman who is extremely good at reading the room

841
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 6: and understanding what it took to move through that room

842
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 6: in a successful way. You know, she went from sort

843
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 6: of loose long unbrushed brown hair and thick eyebrows and

844
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 6: moves to New York and in quick succession, like loses

845
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 6: a significant amount of.

846
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 3: Weight, her eyebrows disappear, her hair goes.

847
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 6: I remember seeing her on the street once and I

848
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 6: realized it was her just because the shade of her

849
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 6: hair was so white blonde that you couldn't not look

850
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 6: at it, and then realizing that she thought she was

851
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 6: like I was making her nervous because she was like

852
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 6: I could tell that it was a woman sort of

853
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 6: like walking trying to escape, and I thought, oh, oh,

854
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 6: she's trying to escape me, Like I Like, she clearly

855
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 6: moved through the streets with a lot of like anxiety

856
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 6: at that point, but like she transformed herself so that

857
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 6: when you compare a nineteen ninety even once you started

858
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 6: dating JFK. Junior, you compare a nineteen ninety five carolmbus

859
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 6: Set in like thick nineties heels and whatever she was wearing,

860
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 6: to like nineteen ninety seven carolinba Set and they are

861
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 6: two different animals all together. And that fascinates me because

862
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 6: in some ways the tragedy of her to me, the

863
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 6: plane crash is obviously tragic, but the tragedy of her,

864
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 6: to me was.

865
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: A woman who could not handle her own.

866
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 6: Success, right, Like she set her sights on the pinnacle

867
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 6: of everything, reached it, and then couldn't manage the reality

868
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 6: of it, and then disappeared herself. You know, Like that's

869
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 6: all all of these decisions were her making them, And

870
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 6: in that sense, I think, like that's the tragedy, Like

871
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 6: you kind of want to go and be like are

872
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 6: you okay?

873
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: Do you want someone to take you for a walk?

874
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 3: You know? That kind of that kind of thing.

875
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: Something that we did want to talk about, like especially

876
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: in terms of like the tabloid coverage of her, and

877
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: like this time in New York is like what I'm like,

878
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: I can't think.

879
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 5: Of trying to ask about cocaine.

880
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: I'm trying to ask about cocaine.

881
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: I just like, because that's it's part of the story

882
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: around her.

883
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 5: And it was one of the big elements of her

884
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 5: mythology and also of her as like an unapproachable B word.

885
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 5: You know, it's like she's always on coked, right, just.

886
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: The way that you've just described and the way that

887
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: like her, the people who knew her described her transformation

888
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: at that time and place lines up with like someone

889
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: who's like getting into coke or being blunt about continuing.

890
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, so at the time, I don't know. I think

891
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 6: that maybe popped up here and there. But I think

892
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 6: that narrative was pushed after the plane crash, because immediately

893
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 6: after the prane crash, she got blamed for being late

894
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 6: to Jersey where to the the airfield or airport where

895
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 6: all the.

896
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 3: Private planes take off.

897
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 6: So she was immediately blamed for going shopping at Barney's

898
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 6: or Berg Dwarfs for a dress and then making them late.

899
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 6: And that's why the plane crash, which is ludicrous as

900
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 6: we know it was JFK. Junior's fault in every way imaginable.

901
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 6: But that that and like and also she was sitting

902
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 6: at home doing lines of coke. And I think because

903
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 6: of that, I never took those things all that seriously,

904
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 6: because they were so wrapped up in this sense of like,

905
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 6: how do we keep him pure? And like what else

906
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 6: can we load onto this woman who can't speak for herself.

907
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 6: In hindsight understanding sort of you know, having a better

908
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 6: understanding of how certain cultures in New York work, it

909
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 6: wouldn't surprise me. So I think she was a cocaine addict.

910
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 6: I don't think she was a cocaine addict in the

911
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 6: way that we understand. I imagine she recreationally used cocaine

912
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 6: and maybe at times a lot of it, and also

913
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 6: knowing how the fashion industry works and like the community she.

914
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: Was exposed to.

915
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 6: But I don't ever get the sense that, like, I'd

916
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 6: be surprised if he would marry an addict, And you

917
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 6: don't ever get the sense from her that she's like

918
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 6: an addict in the way that you can look at

919
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 6: people certainly and be like, oh, there's a problem going

920
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 6: on there. Even her appearance, like her appearance was so intentional,

921
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 6: and yes, parts of it you can be like, wow,

922
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 6: maybe I's doing by a lot of coke. But but

923
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 6: I don't get it the sense that like coke was

924
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 6: the thing that was ruining her life.

925
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: It sort of seemed like part of the way.

926
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 6: That you operated in those worlds at that time. Yeah,

927
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 6: and then if you think she's sitting home alone, she

928
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 6: literally sat home alone for years, Like imagine having that

929
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 6: social life and then at cutting it off completely and

930
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 6: how lonely that must have been, and how crazy making

931
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 6: that must have been, Like what are you doing?

932
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 3: By yourself. Are you going to do a lot of coke?

933
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 6: I don't know, You're probably going to take antidepressants, right,

934
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 6: Like we're probably talking more the dolls then we are

935
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 6: hard drugs.

936
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: But used to say sure, I mean I think that's

937
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 3: a thing.

938
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like, I don't there's nothing about her to

939
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: me that screams attic. It's more just like being kind

940
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: of fur real about what that lifestyle would have been.

941
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 1: Would she even would have been around, because you don't

942
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: think that JFK.

943
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 6: Junior was a like I don't think he was ever

944
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 6: a person that was highly into drugs.

945
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: But I just think like he came up in eighties

946
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:28,479
Speaker 3: in New York.

947
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 6: She arrived in New York as it was transitioning into

948
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 6: early nineties. In that world, I have to assume they're all.

949
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 6: I mean, she smoked, you know, she was a smoker,

950
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 6: though you almost never saw her with a cigarette and

951
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 6: hand in public, certainly after they were married. But he

952
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 6: was a smoker, and like everyone was a smoker. You know,

953
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 6: smoking wasn't illegal in bars until the turn of the

954
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 6: last century. It was like these things were not that

955
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 6: big a deal. And I also think like that culture

956
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 6: again was such a sealed one that even you remember

957
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 6: when Kate Moss got caught doing lines of coke, you know,

958
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 6: by the tabloids in like two thousand and five or something,

959
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 6: even that felt shocking on sort of like a public scale,

960
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 6: even though if in those worlds, it was probably the

961
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 6: least shocking thing possible, right.

962
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, there was a I remember I

963
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: think it was like possibly Spencer pratt By. I need

964
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: to double check this, but just like talking about how

965
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: before smartphones, celebs would just be doing coke in the.

966
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: Club completely, I mean literally, like Jennifer Aniston has talked

967
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 5: about that, you don't have to be some bad boy.

968
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 1: He is somebody who's so like vocal about like, let

969
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: me tell you what ruined everything.

970
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 3: I think Gwyneth has recently said that too.

971
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 5: It was like maybe it was Gwyneth, It wasn't, It wasn't, Yes.

972
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure everybody.

973
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 6: I mean, I just remember there being coke everywhere, and

974
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 6: I was not operating at that level by any means.

975
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 6: Like I was hanging out at some of the I

976
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 6: knew the dormant at a couple of like the hot

977
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 6: clubs at that time, there was just cocaine literally everywhere

978
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 6: it did not seem and then you have to imagine,

979
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 6: like extrapolate that to backstage at a fashion show where

980
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 6: everyone has to be high energy. I'm sure that was

981
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 6: part of her life, but I never never, even when

982
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 6: she looked unhappy or like she was thin, like, I

983
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 6: never there was never this sense of like even the

984
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 6: Kate Moss heroin Chic, there was not a sense of

985
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 6: addiction going on there. And when those when that sort

986
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 6: of popped up again, it was like in a way

987
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 6: that felt really dirty and like as a way to

988
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 6: delegitimize or to make sure that JFK.

989
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 3: Junior emerged from this scot free right, like with no responsibility.

990
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 5: Yeah. Now, I think honestly, one of the most compelling

991
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 5: sort of elements of what you're saying is this idea

992
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 5: that the media phenomenon that was Carolyn Bessett was a

993
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 5: symptom of downtown New York culture suddenly being thrust on

994
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 5: the national stage. Like it's so clear to me, and

995
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 5: I had never thought about it like that, Like so

996
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 5: these things that aren't as big of a deal, you know,

997
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 5: a stunning, beautiful woman like walking on the street, like

998
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 5: someone potentially not smiling that much when doing a little

999
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 5: bit of cocaine on a Friday night. Suddenly it's like

1000
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 5: you have to be like watching the nightly news and

1001
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 5: having an opinion about it as just like a normal

1002
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 5: American person completely.

1003
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 6: And he was such an easily like he was so

1004
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 6: easily digestible, right, he was like a happy barbecue guy

1005
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 6: who liked to take is always with being photographed with

1006
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 6: his shirt off at the beach. Who's like biking around

1007
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 6: New York And suddenly she appears and you're just.

1008
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: Like, you're right.

1009
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 6: She's like a manifestation of Manhattan in a way that

1010
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 6: is like, I mean, New York is an idea. And

1011
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 6: the reason one of the reasons I think she's persisted

1012
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 6: for so long is because we never get tired of

1013
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 6: New York.

1014
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 3: But in the moment, it's.

1015
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 6: Like so jarring and it's hard for people to remember.

1016
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 6: But prior to September eleventh, New York was its own

1017
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 6: and particularly in the late nineties when la crime dropped

1018
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 6: and there was so much money and it was so

1019
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 6: glamorous and like it was the center of the world.

1020
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 6: It was also very insular and very separate from the

1021
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 6: rest of the country, and there wasn't a lot off.

1022
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 6: Like I remember after nine to eleven, all the love

1023
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 6: that was directed to New York from the rest of

1024
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 6: the country felt jarring because it did not have it

1025
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 6: was not while it was a global city, it was

1026
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 6: not accessible in the way that it is it became

1027
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 6: after nine to eleven is like everyone's property and and

1028
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 6: so you would come, you would you would come to.

1029
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 3: New York to experience New York and it was.

1030
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 6: So addictive and compelling in it and but like the

1031
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 6: vernacular of New York was not globally.

1032
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it wasn't like relatable. I remember, I remember

1033
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 5: that switch to like post nine to eleven, from from

1034
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 5: New York being a beacon of you know, sin and

1035
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 5: power to suddenly being emblematic of the American spirit, like

1036
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 5: as though, like this is what America is. It's New

1037
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 5: York and specifically sorry, but like Wall.

1038
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 6: Street exactly like a skyscraper, a skycade that everyone hated, right,

1039
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 6: like the World Trade Center was not.

1040
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 3: And also Windows on the World was. I remember going

1041
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: to it once.

1042
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 6: It was like where corporate corporations had their parties and

1043
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 6: where like it was not like it was just it

1044
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 6: was a place that I think was different from how

1045
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 6: it's remembered in ways that you know, are irrelevant to

1046
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 6: how we think of the two of them in that moment,

1047
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 6: and that the jagged edges of her were, as you say,

1048
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 6: like the jagged edges of New York.

1049
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 5: Yeah. All right. So one of the things I had

1050
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 5: sort of referenced when we were introing you is this

1051
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 5: term that Vanessa Friedman used in a twenty twenty three

1052
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 5: Times piece about Carolyn Bessett, where she called her a

1053
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 5: ghost influencer, which I think in twenty twenty three was

1054
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 5: especially relevant because that was when, if people remember, you know,

1055
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 5: the term quiet luxury was like trending on TikTok, and

1056
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 5: you would hear people, you would hear truly like random

1057
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 5: twenty two year olds talking about stealth wealth, and it

1058
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 5: was very sort of jarring that suddenly this was like

1059
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 5: the big trend. It was when I feel like the

1060
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 5: row was really having a moment, and you know, people

1061
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 5: were sort of like getting back into kind of like

1062
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 5: a minimalist, preppy aesthetic, clean white shirts and whatever. And

1063
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 5: so I would love to know, like, in your opinion,

1064
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 5: what the trajectory of the Carolyn Besset aesthetic has been,

1065
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 5: like it was huge in the late nineties early two thousands,

1066
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 5: and then you were saying it has sort of like

1067
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 5: made a comeback in the last few years.

1068
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 6: Well, I think right at the end of the nineties,

1069
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 6: you know, Sex and the City arrives, right like the

1070
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 6: Sex and the City premiered in halfway through nineteen ninety eight,

1071
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 6: but no one began watching it for real until nineteen

1072
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 6: ninety nine. And they had to actually in the second

1073
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 6: season remove a JFK. Junior reference because it aired two

1074
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 6: weeks before the plane crash, and then they had to

1075
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 6: replace it when Samantha gets back into the socialites good

1076
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 6: graces by doing the gardening work. If you want, if

1077
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 6: you find an original clip of that, it's JFK. Junior

1078
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 6: who gets her back in and they had to change

1079
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 6: it to Leonardo DiCaprio two weeks later because the plane

1080
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 6: crash happened because it aired before that. So Sex and

1081
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 6: the City arrives as a cultural force right as Carolyn

1082
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 6: Besset exits, and the Sex and the City and Carrie

1083
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 6: in particular is opulence. And I think, you know, when

1084
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 6: we I think it feels normal now, but I really

1085
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 6: attribute Sex and the City and the sort of manuche

1086
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 6: of fashion, this obsession with the minuchet of fashion to

1087
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 6: sex in the city, where you start picking apart the

1088
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 6: different manolos and you start iding all of these small things.

1089
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 3: And it's like more and more and more. You know,

1090
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 3: Carrie would leave the house dress she was exact, even though.

1091
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 6: Sarahjusca Parker datd JFK Junior prior to ball this like

1092
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 6: there's like a there's an opulence to the figure of

1093
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 6: Carrie Bradshaw.

1094
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 3: And then simultaneously you have arriving in full force.

1095
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 6: In that book that just came out, Girl on Girl

1096
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 6: by Sophie Goilbert really gets into this of like the

1097
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 6: Britney Spears youth culture of low.

1098
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 3: Slung genes, and.

1099
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 6: He remember all these people's names, but like that's sort

1100
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 6: of like Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton ghost appearance and then

1101
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 6: Josey Cuture completely and it's very culture begins to skew

1102
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 6: to these very young girls. These teen girls esthetic very

1103
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 6: over sexualized, cheap in a way I think that we

1104
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 6: can say even if the clothes themselves weren't cheap. And

1105
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 6: you know, September eleventh was a real sort of before

1106
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 6: and after moment and these people start to emerge in

1107
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 6: the aftermath of that. And then what I really think

1108
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 6: is the before and after moment is Facebook arrives when

1109
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 6: was publicly accessible, So suddenly you have the beginning of

1110
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 6: social media that's arriving in this moment where you've got

1111
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 6: all these young girls and with their sort of tacky outfits.

1112
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 3: Is what is getting pushed out.

1113
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 6: It's what it sort of starts moving into magazines And

1114
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 6: how much space are you giving to Carolin Basett and

1115
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 6: the pages of magazines before we had social media? Right Like,

1116
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 6: there's only so much space that's going You even see

1117
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 6: Gwyneth's style, she leaves behind, you know, the Calvin Klein

1118
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 6: era and starts moving into whatever she was doing next

1119
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 6: to is pre goop, and then Kate Moss.

1120
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 3: Moves into her real vintage era.

1121
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 6: So you're seeing, like all these figures that have held

1122
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 6: our attention go off into different routes at a time

1123
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 6: that social media begins to allow us to take more

1124
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 6: and more pictures of ourself. And what I think happened

1125
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 6: with Carolyn Bassett, the Row takes a lot of inspiration

1126
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 6: from her.

1127
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 3: So I don't think.

1128
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 6: These two things are disconnected, but I think enough time

1129
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 6: passed and she disappeared from the culture to such a

1130
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 6: degree that when I pitched that story to Town and Country,

1131
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 6: they were sort of like, oh, this could be interesting

1132
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 6: because no one knows who she is anymore, right Like

1133
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 6: they had disappeared from a cultural vernacular in a way,

1134
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 6: including JFK.

1135
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 3: Junior that I think it.

1136
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 6: Allowed a new generation that now has access to far

1137
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 6: more information and you know, the row to feel like

1138
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 6: they discovered her, right like she can be a discovery

1139
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 6: now as opposed to like a permanent the same way

1140
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 6: I see people discover that Gwyneth Paltrower and Brad Pitt

1141
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 6: ever dated.

1142
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 3: I'm always like, how is that not common knowledge?

1143
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 6: But you know, I'm sure I did that with my parents' generation, right,

1144
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 6: Like you just need that like that sense of like, oh,

1145
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 6: I've just discovered this person.

1146
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 3: Did you ever know about this person?

1147
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 6: And then have the same reaction to her appearance that

1148
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 6: so many of us had to the original And if

1149
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 6: you think about that timeline, like that's fifteen or sixteen

1150
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 6: years that have passed, there's a completely different media environment.

1151
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 3: Culturally, we are re.

1152
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 6: You know, addressing, as you said, all these women in

1153
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 6: the late nineties who got such a shitty ride. And Gwynneth,

1154
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 6: of course and now is in her growner years, who's

1155
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 6: now amount of phrases buenapulta was introduced into our Alexicana's

1156
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 6: really fascinating, but like she begins to introduce quiet luxury.

1157
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 6: So I think all of these things sort of like

1158
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 6: the timing of it has propelled her back into the

1159
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 6: culture in a way that I was very sensitive to

1160
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 6: because she occupied, because she was so all consuming at

1161
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 6: a particular point when I would be sensitive to when

1162
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 6: she would re emerge, because I was like, oh, it's

1163
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 6: not just like other people know who she is, like

1164
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 6: you know, in that sense, and so I was aware

1165
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 6: of it. And and she's only I think in the

1166
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 6: last five years that has.

1167
00:58:58,960 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 3: Shifted into overdrive.

1168
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 6: You know, her clothing now gets auctioned for thousands of

1169
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 6: dollars that would not have been possible fifteen years ago.

1170
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 3: No one would have paid at ten.

1171
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 6: I mean, you would have had a small subset of

1172
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,919
Speaker 6: like ten people myself included, with no money who would

1173
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 6: have been like, oh, it'd be interesting to see that

1174
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 6: Yogi dress that I was always obsessed with, you know,

1175
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 6: like in real life or what was how you know

1176
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 6: what her size actually was, the way we're always obsessed

1177
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 6: with those things, but like that's selling for hundreds of

1178
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 6: thousands of dollars right now, and so I just think

1179
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 6: that it was the disappearing act of her culturally that

1180
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 6: allowed her to emerge as a discovery at a moment

1181
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 6: where we have cycled back to sort of minimalism or

1182
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 6: what wealth looks like, because now we're so exposed to

1183
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 6: people's wealth through social media, it becomes like a game

1184
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 6: of like can you hide your wealth through wealth? You know,

1185
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 6: whoever else you want to describe quiet luxury or Gwynneth

1186
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 6: or Gwyneth we're still living with Gwyneth is like an

1187
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 6: ever was just never going away.

1188
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the blank baseball cap on successions, like

1189
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: how yes, the extremely expensive, as plain as possible, as

1190
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: simple as possible.

1191
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 6: And in terms of like fashion moments coming, I remember,

1192
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 6: you know, I was a child of the eighties and

1193
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 6: in the mid to late eighties, the nineteen fifties as

1194
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 6: a culture became you know, maybe because back to the future,

1195
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 6: but like I remember going to my mom and being like,

1196
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 6: have you ever heard of a poodle skirt? And of

1197
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 6: course my mother was a teenager in the nineteen fifties

1198
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 6: and she was like, come with me to the basement, child,

1199
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 6: and like pulled out of her clothes. So I think

1200
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 6: it's normal for each generation to go back, and we're

1201
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 6: just we're operating at such an accelerated rate now that

1202
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 6: fifteen years can feel like a lifetime, and when I

1203
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 6: was a kid, it was thirty years.

1204
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 3: And you know, if you.

1205
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 6: Read about how you know, the fashion icons of the

1206
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 6: seventies were dressing, they were all finding nineteen twenties vintage

1207
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 6: clothing to wear. So it's like we're all just tapping

1208
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 6: back to the past as you know, things that we

1209
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 6: can say we discover, and it's just happening more quickly.

1210
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 6: And again, the fact she never talked allows people to

1211
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 6: attribute mystery to her and like endless, endless assumptions and

1212
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 6: fascination in a way that probably would not have held

1213
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 6: up had she not died.

1214
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 5: You know, it's funny. I wanted to ask you, as

1215
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 5: a sort of final question, if there is anyone in

1216
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 5: today's celebrity landscape that you think is like our Carolyn Besset.

1217
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 5: And when as you were talking, I was like, this

1218
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 5: is a stretch, but honestly, when you think about how

1219
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 5: the Olsen Twins never speak, there is something and they're

1220
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 5: actually like recreating that aesthetic. There's something about them that

1221
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 5: is almost approaching, you know, that kind of vibe.

1222
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about them all day because you know,

1223
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: my experience of the comparison of the like Paris Hilton

1224
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: era to like the Carolyn Bassett and the Gwyneth Paltrow

1225
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: is that to me as a kid, I thought, well,

1226
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: Paris Hilton, Nicole Richie, that's like what like cool like

1227
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: older teens, young twenties where and then Gwyneth patro is

1228
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: what an adult woman wears like a you know, And

1229
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: I didn't realize I think so much, how like how

1230
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: much of that disappeared or I guess contextualized how much

1231
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: of that disappeared during that time, like that it was

1232
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: not sharing space, it was gone. And I am like

1233
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: the exact I think I'm two years younger than the

1234
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: Olsen Twins, so I feel like I'm the exact age

1235
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: that I have idolized every single thing they have ever

1236
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: done in their entire lives, every decision they have made,

1237
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: every like change they have made to their appearance.

1238
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 3: And they were my obsession at that time.

1239
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 5: It's funny because they were such a big part of

1240
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 5: like boho chic, which was as Glennis as you said,

1241
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 5: like the previous that was sort of like during the

1242
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 5: Paris Hilton Rachel Zoe era, and then they were the

1243
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 5: ones who transitioned the culture into into quiet luxury. But anyway,

1244
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 5: I see your point.

1245
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 6: When I was no, no, I think you're making a

1246
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 6: good point, I would say the Olsen Twins I was.

1247
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 6: I'm not sure I was too old for Full House,

1248
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 6: but I remember my sisters a year and a half younger.

1249
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 6: Her friends all had a crush on John Stamos in

1250
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 6: Full House like that, and Full House always bored me,

1251
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 6: and I always associated the Olsen Twins with the two

1252
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 6: cute little kids on a sitcom that I thought was dumb,

1253
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:21,439
Speaker 6: and so it was a long time before I looked

1254
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:25,919
Speaker 6: at them as serious people, and I mean far too long,

1255
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 6: to the point where I was like, I don't understand

1256
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 6: why people are even interested in the Olsen Twins, even

1257
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 6: after they started the row, and that just goes back

1258
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 6: to how I was first introduced to them in that

1259
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 6: sort of eighties pop culture. But I do think you're

1260
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 6: right about the space that they occupy and it also

1261
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 6: makes me very sad. Then this Kate Moss sort of

1262
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 6: occupied the space too, that the women who last the

1263
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 6: longest as objects of fascination are the ones who don't speak, right,

1264
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 6: Jackie Kennedy.

1265
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 3: Was similar to that.

1266
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 6: Diana spoke eventually, but to some degree that early shy

1267
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 6: die nature, Like we really Greta Garbo is still an

1268
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 6: iconic figure, Like we really really reward women for being quiet,

1269
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 6: and that makes me sad, right Like, of course, then

1270
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 6: we have Gwyenneth who never shuts up, and she seems

1271
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 6: to be doing fine, so she's the flip side of that.

1272
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 5: She really is unique in that way is the to

1273
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 5: maintain a level of mystery while legitimately having like fourteen

1274
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 5: media properties at any given time.

1275
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 6: And when we're talking abeople who've lasted long enough to

1276
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 6: outgrow the hate I have had. Again, you can find

1277
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 6: women who are in late nineties New York who like

1278
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 6: all hate Gwyneth the way later generations hated Anne Hathaway.

1279
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 6: I've now come around where I'm just like Gwyneth. You're

1280
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 6: still here, like like I bad like you?

1281
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 3: Who am I to criticize? Like you are clearly a

1282
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 3: genius on something.

1283
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: Well. I also I remember as like, I mean, I

1284
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: must have been a teen major because there was I

1285
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: remember when the Olsen Twins hosted SNL and it was

1286
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: a huge cultural moment for me and my friends, and

1287
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: we all watched it together and it was the most

1288
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: that you saw them, uh, you know, like talk about

1289
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: themselves and talk about and they did this sketch where

1290
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: there's the Mary Kate perfume and the Ashley perfume and

1291
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: how they like have to occupy these opposite traits for

1292
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: women in order.

1293
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 3: You know.

1294
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: And I remember I learned for the first time I

1295
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: ever heard the quote no is a full sentenced for them.

1296
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 6: I mean, talk about two people who have like transformed

1297
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 6: themselves their geniuses too. I just I don't personally they

1298
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 6: never held my attention, but that is entirely generational and

1299
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 6: probably says more than my like interest in certain degrees

1300
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 6: of sophistication.

1301
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I think you're right that they also.

1302
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: I mean, also everything you everything that you've said about

1303
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: Carolyn's intentionality, her conscious choices, and her like educated choices.

1304
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 3: Uh, I feel like it's also you could apply to them.

1305
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, George, you didn't talk to me.

1306
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 5: Well, Glenna's This has been an absolute delight. I have

1307
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 5: to say I could write a thesis on Carolyn Misset

1308
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 5: for this conversation.

1309
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 6: I'm happy to hear it because she always fascinates me,

1310
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 6: and there was a long time when people were like why, So.

1311
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 3: It's been interesting to see her return.

1312
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 5: I was shocked when I saw the date on that article.

1313
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 5: I really you really were ahead of your time.

1314
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 3: Want something?

1315
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 5: I think that's it?

1316
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Thank you so much.

1317
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 5: This was really lovely. Guys.

1318
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,439
Speaker 3: This has been a delight. Thank you very much.

1319
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode.

1320
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 5: And next week we have our first entry of the

1321
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 5: Kennedy Movie Club.

1322
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 3: What's a month.

1323
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: We're going to watch a movie that is based on

1324
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: a Kennedy story, and the first one is JFK.

1325
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 5: That's right, Oliver Stone's JFK. It's not the movie you

1326
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 5: think it.

1327
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: Is, so subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all.

1328
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 3: Thanks Kennedy every week.

1329
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening the book

1330
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 3: Bo a Woman