Speaker 1: Thinking sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't
Speaker 1: know the answer too. Well. Hey there, and welcome again
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Steve of course,
Speaker 1: joined by and I don't know. I just feel like
Speaker 1: I have to imitate him sometimes. Oh the deep boys. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll be high pitched from now. Okay, okay, on I'll
Speaker 1: go low. Okay. Well, today we've we've of course, got
Speaker 1: another bit of a mystery for you. And what we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about is we're going to talk about the
Speaker 1: story of Michelle Shelley Miss Cabbage. Michelle is the wife
Speaker 1: of David Miscabbage, who you may know. That name you
Speaker 1: may not. You might not recognize it because that's not
Speaker 1: how a lot of people pronounce it too. Yeah, Mscovige,
Speaker 1: I've seen or her in Miss Cabage, So I just
Speaker 1: kind of chose when it ran with it because that's
Speaker 1: what Ted Copple used. Uh Well. David Miscavage is the
Speaker 1: current chairman of the Board of Religious Technology Center of
Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology, So for all intentsive purposes, David's
Speaker 1: Miscabbage is the leader of the Church of Scientology. Michelle Miscavage,
Speaker 1: of course, being the wife of the head of this
Speaker 1: church is a fairly well known figure, seen publicly and
Speaker 1: known by members of the church, and she was very
Speaker 1: active up until August of two thousand and seven when
Speaker 1: she completely dropped off the radar and essentially disappeared from
Speaker 1: the public eye. So she's taking a sabbatical. In other words, honestly,
Speaker 1: not nobody. Nobody'll say anything an unsolved mystery Exactually, uh,
Speaker 1: there there's a couple of things that I want to
Speaker 1: cover first before we get into the story. First of
Speaker 1: which is I want to send out a big thank
Speaker 1: you to Aubrey who sent the story into us. Uh.
Speaker 1: This really was one of those ones where I just
Speaker 1: went down the rabbit hole because I'm talking. I've been
Speaker 1: doing that a lot lately, I really have. It's it's
Speaker 1: a it's a bad personality quirk. I guess you just
Speaker 1: like clicking on links. That's all it is. And the
Speaker 1: thing about it is, when you're dealing with the Church
Speaker 1: of Scientology, there's a lot a lot there's an interesting topic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it it is. And that's kind of the second
Speaker 1: thing I want to talk about here is that this
Speaker 1: story deals with the Church of Scientology and why we're
Speaker 1: going to discuss how the church works and some of
Speaker 1: its practices. That's in no way reflective of any feelings
Speaker 1: or personal beliefs towards it or anything like that. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't understand the Church of Science. I don't understand
Speaker 1: any churches though, so that's I'm I'm not a religious individual,
Speaker 1: so you know, these faith based systems, I just I
Speaker 1: can't really wrap my head around. So what we talk
Speaker 1: about here is going to be accounting and information that
Speaker 1: we have found through our research, and there's there's no
Speaker 1: personal malice or anything like that. This is just trying
Speaker 1: to lay out facts as much as we can, and
Speaker 1: also we don't want to alienate Tom Cruise, who's one
Speaker 1: of our listeners. We're pretty sure. Yeah, of course, you
Speaker 1: know you said this guy named Tom who sends us
Speaker 1: links and stuff, So I'm assuming it's Tom Cruise. Tom,
Speaker 1: it is a safe bat. Yeah. Before we get into
Speaker 1: the story of Michelle, I do need to give a
Speaker 1: little bit of background on the Church of Scientology. Most
Speaker 1: people probably know something about the church or some information
Speaker 1: about the church. I mean, there's obviously Joe alluded to.
Speaker 1: They've got some pretty famous members. Tom cruise. Uh, Kirsty Alley,
Speaker 1: what's the other Yeah, I think back to back back
Speaker 1: back is a member of the church. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure. Again, I've gonna be wrong. I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure though. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to say,
Speaker 1: but but there is a ton of information out there
Speaker 1: how their ideology and their history and the organization. It's
Speaker 1: all important and it plays a role in the story.
Speaker 1: So we've kind of got to do a little bit
Speaker 1: of backwork before we actually get to the story of Michelle.
Speaker 1: It's also very well preserved. It's a modern religion for
Speaker 1: all intents and purp. This is so, you know, information,
Speaker 1: accurate information about origins and things like that are pretty
Speaker 1: pretty readily available, which is kind of nice. Actually, it's
Speaker 1: not one that you're like, well, maybe this thing happened,
Speaker 1: and I guess we you know, to be part of it,
Speaker 1: you have to believe it. But also maybe it didn't
Speaker 1: and we don't have any good records or anything, so
Speaker 1: I don't know. And the cool thing about it is
Speaker 1: for future of archaeologists and anthropologists or whatever you want
Speaker 1: to call them, is that even after all this has
Speaker 1: been lost, you'll be able to dig up some crips
Speaker 1: that have a lot of stuff inscribed on them, the
Speaker 1: entire fact they're describing. You weren't going to talk about
Speaker 1: this later, were you? A little bit? But go ahead,
Speaker 1: it's fine, continue on now. The church is actually describing
Speaker 1: every word that L. Ron Hubbard ever wrote on the
Speaker 1: steel plates, casing them in in what titanium cases, and
Speaker 1: then putting them in underground bunkers. So someday, actually somebody
Speaker 1: is going to dig that stuff up and negative think
Speaker 1: this is what we all believed. It's quite possible. Interesting, Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's go into some of the beliefs of Scientology.
Speaker 1: As Joe alluded to a little bit there. H. L.
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard, who was an author, founded the Church of Scientology,
Speaker 1: and he brought forth the information and the ideology and
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff. And and and we'll get
Speaker 1: into some of the tenants in the origin story. Is
Speaker 1: is the best way that I can think of to
Speaker 1: say this, Yeah, the origins of the religion, yeah, and
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah. So here is a very very simplified
Speaker 1: version of how this goes. And this is based again,
Speaker 1: like I said, on what L. Ron Hubbard wrote. He
Speaker 1: says there was a galactic confederacy seventy five million years ago,
Speaker 1: and it was ruled by Zenu. Zenu brought billions of
Speaker 1: his people to Earth in spacecrafts, stacked them around volcanoes
Speaker 1: on our planet, and then killed them all with hydrogen bombs.
Speaker 1: Another version of this, I heard that he just basically
Speaker 1: dumped them into volcanoes active volcanoes and they were fried alive.
Speaker 1: I I have seen that as well, but I don't.
Speaker 1: This is the hard part is that, again, people have
Speaker 1: their notions of scientology. I took as much of this
Speaker 1: as I could from some of the more reputable sites,
Speaker 1: so it's hard to say if people twist some of that,
Speaker 1: but I'm just going to kind of run with it
Speaker 1: as I have it. According to the official Scientology scriptures,
Speaker 1: these creatures were Thetan's. I believe. It's how you pronounce that.
Speaker 1: Thetan's are evidently immortal souls that were the souls of
Speaker 1: these people who were killed off by Zeno, and these
Speaker 1: Satan's adhere to hue means and cause them spiritual pain
Speaker 1: and harm. All those events that we just talked about
Speaker 1: within scientology are known as incident to and what was
Speaker 1: incident one? I'm not positive. Again, this thing is so
Speaker 1: hard for me to wrap my head around. I'm not
Speaker 1: exactly sure. But the traumatic memories that people have based
Speaker 1: on these satan's that's known as the wall of fire
Speaker 1: or the R six implants. So in other ways, I
Speaker 1: say that the thetans have a huge amount of like
Speaker 1: pain because of their ending, and then they carry that
Speaker 1: into humans and sort of we experience that. That's what
Speaker 1: causes Yeah, so we'd be a much happier and easier
Speaker 1: going people if we didn't have these pains attached to
Speaker 1: us by these souls. Yes, that's that's the way my
Speaker 1: understanding is. And I may be incorrect, but the narrative
Speaker 1: of Zenu is described as the space opera by l
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard, and he delivered all of this and warned
Speaker 1: that anyone who tried to understand this past trauma or
Speaker 1: as they call it, the R six implant, uh, that
Speaker 1: our six implant was calculated to kill, so you basically
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out how to get around it and free
Speaker 1: yourself of it naturally. So the thing and that here's
Speaker 1: to your body or sway, and that's an our six implant,
Speaker 1: I think. So Okay, again, this is so far out
Speaker 1: of outside of my wheelhouse, and it's really hard sometimes
Speaker 1: to suss apart, and obviously goes thout saying there's a
Speaker 1: lot of information about this online. This is like most yeah,
Speaker 1: from pro and anti and Scientology website, so be careful
Speaker 1: to note which kind of website you're on. And that's
Speaker 1: a very good point, I mean, and what and we
Speaker 1: got a little bit more here. But this is, like
Speaker 1: I said before, a very brief overview, your bullet point overview.
Speaker 1: If you're interested in this, as Devin said and Joe said,
Speaker 1: there is a ton of resources out there for you
Speaker 1: to look at it and dig into it and come
Speaker 1: to your own conclusions about it. Now, where we were
Speaker 1: at here is we were talking about those spirits, the
Speaker 1: Thetan's what you're holding us back. The church believes that
Speaker 1: the Satan's, like I said, are Thetan's Satan's They Thetans
Speaker 1: are holding us back. And uh, it seems that the
Speaker 1: members have of the Church of Scientology have set about
Speaker 1: to free themselves from those spirits. The church's method of
Speaker 1: spiritual rehabilitation is through a type of counseling that they
Speaker 1: call auditing, which the practitioners they try to re experience
Speaker 1: consciously painful or traumatic events that happened in their past
Speaker 1: and try to free themselves from the limitations that are
Speaker 1: caused by that. So again, very high level, very basic
Speaker 1: overview of scientology, or I should say, the beliefs of scientology.
Speaker 1: So we should now talk about probably the history. And
Speaker 1: now you're understanding that we all have multiple tatans in us, right,
Speaker 1: not just not just one, but a bunch of them.
Speaker 1: I think so, yes. And so if you're if you've
Speaker 1: got like say, just a ton of thetans in you,
Speaker 1: then you become a serial killer perhaps, and then if
Speaker 1: you've only got a few, then you get to be presidents.
Speaker 1: That's the way it works, I think. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think this is something that people need to go Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you're gonna have to dig into this
Speaker 1: on your own because it's just there's so many details
Speaker 1: and avenues that it goes down and I, like I said,
Speaker 1: I started running down through some of the alleys and
Speaker 1: then I just had to turn back because it just
Speaker 1: I can't rab my head around it. Yeah, as I
Speaker 1: was saying, though, we should probably get into some of
Speaker 1: the history and the organization of the church, because again
Speaker 1: this is important and it plays into the story of Michelle. Obviously,
Speaker 1: we've we've explained that l. Ron Hubbard founded the church Scientology.
Speaker 1: He officially founded the church in nineteen fifty three, though
Speaker 1: he had been operating the Hubbard Association of Scientologists International
Speaker 1: as of nineteen fifty two, So to me, it's almost
Speaker 1: like he rebranded it and from there he was always
Speaker 1: the head of the church up until his death in
Speaker 1: and here's a here's a quote from Hubbard to kind
Speaker 1: of give you an idea. I took this as a
Speaker 1: way to understand what his his beliefs and aims for
Speaker 1: the church were and what he intended it to be
Speaker 1: for people. The quote is a civilization without insanity, without criminals,
Speaker 1: and without war, where the able can prosper and honest
Speaker 1: beings can have rights, and where man is free to
Speaker 1: rise to greater heights are the aims of Scientology. So
Speaker 1: at its simplest level, it's you know, the better people?
Speaker 1: Would I take that to me? Which one could argue
Speaker 1: is the name of all religions. I would agree. The
Speaker 1: church itself is broken into many, many divisions and subdivisions,
Speaker 1: and this is where it gets confusing. I would say
Speaker 1: it's different than like the religion of Christianity is broken
Speaker 1: into divisions and subdivisions. Would you agree with that, it's
Speaker 1: more like a hierarchy in a in a corporation, or
Speaker 1: more more than if like, well, the Protestants believe this,
Speaker 1: and then you know Russian Orthodox believe this. You know
Speaker 1: that it's more of a every but he believes the
Speaker 1: same thing. And it's just like different callings within the
Speaker 1: organization or religion instead of being like, well, we believe
Speaker 1: all these different things that we have this one kind
Speaker 1: of smaller belief or I guess we have one belief
Speaker 1: in common and then believe a lot of other things.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's definitely it's definitely organized almost like a corporation.
Speaker 1: To me, that's a very great description. And it's it's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine different sects of scientology, you know, like
Speaker 1: Catholic and Protestant. It's kind of well, it's too new
Speaker 1: of a religion. That's that's why it's hard to think
Speaker 1: of that because it's brand new for all intensive purposes.
Speaker 1: It's sixty years old round figure, So it's hard to
Speaker 1: see it having fracture because that takes a long span
Speaker 1: of time. Just saying yeah, right, We're gonna go through
Speaker 1: some of the divisions here just briefly. And I apologize
Speaker 1: this is full of acronyms, because every one of these
Speaker 1: names is kind of long, But try and hang on
Speaker 1: some of these because they do play a role later on. Uh.
Speaker 1: There is the Religious Technology Center or RTC, which protects
Speaker 1: the church's copyrights and trademarks, and from the reading that
Speaker 1: I've done, that's primarily done through legal action exercising their right.
Speaker 1: There is a division of the Association of Better Living
Speaker 1: and Education, which helps further and promote the church and
Speaker 1: its belief through social programs. So I'm guessing they're going
Speaker 1: out in the community and helping out and fostering and
Speaker 1: saying this is what scientology does and this is why
Speaker 1: it's great. And they also have like a drug rehab
Speaker 1: program and stuff like that. I assume that's underneath in
Speaker 1: this too. I would presume that that would be likely.
Speaker 1: It's spot for it. And then the one that's going
Speaker 1: to be really important to our story is especially the
Speaker 1: beginning of the story is ce org or Sea Organization.
Speaker 1: Sea org was created in nine seven by Hubbard, and
Speaker 1: this is it cracks me up a little bit. He
Speaker 1: was taking a series of voyages around the Mediterranean Sea,
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean, and I thought even mostly the Mediterranean. I'm
Speaker 1: sure that he went other places, but if everything that
Speaker 1: I've seen was mostly the Mediterranean. While he was on
Speaker 1: his trips, Hubbard gave himself the title of commodore, because well,
Speaker 1: why not. I would be the commodore of the fleet.
Speaker 1: Uh well, and the crew of his ship. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it sounds like there was more than one ship. He
Speaker 1: called them the Sea Organization, which is how the name
Speaker 1: came to be from what I gathered through the research.
Speaker 1: Joe can correct me if I'm wrong, But I think
Speaker 1: you can only be a commodore if it's a fleet
Speaker 1: of ships, I believe so wise you're a captain or
Speaker 1: an admiral. Yeah, unless you bestow the title on yourself.
Speaker 1: Typically admirals don't usually command ships, so usually like commanding
Speaker 1: more than one. But I'm just saying, you know, I
Speaker 1: stand there's a respect for actual correct Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we need to correct him. Yes, Okay, I think there
Speaker 1: were more. I'm just I was saying that to say
Speaker 1: I think there were more than one, and I would
Speaker 1: agree with that. U se Org is still in existence today,
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of an elite group. Getting into see
Speaker 1: org isn't easy, and it's considered a very high honor
Speaker 1: in the Church of Scientology to become a member now,
Speaker 1: but now it seems to me that was essentially Hybrid's
Speaker 1: portable bureaucracy while he was at sea at that time.
Speaker 1: Yet at that time, but what purpose do they have now?
Speaker 1: You know, you know, I don't want to go into it.
Speaker 1: They or there's a lot of stuff there there, it's
Speaker 1: too much to go into. If we go into every
Speaker 1: level of this church, we're gonna be here for hours
Speaker 1: and we're not going to get to our story. And
Speaker 1: that's why I'll encourage people, if you're curious, please go
Speaker 1: and look at some of this stuff on the web,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna start talking faster. Now here's something about
Speaker 1: sea ORG that I was actually really kind of shocked.
Speaker 1: I mean, getting into the lead organization that's you know,
Speaker 1: that makes sense not being easy, but it actually requires
Speaker 1: a lifetime commitment to the Church of Scientology and its organizations.
Speaker 1: Actually interesting to me because that was like one of
Speaker 1: the first things I ever read about se ORG was
Speaker 1: it requires a lifetime equipment. Oh and also it's like
Speaker 1: a super high honor. So for me it was flipped.
Speaker 1: So that's it's interesting that that came second for you
Speaker 1: when you were doing your reading and research. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just I guess a thing of perspective. I guess what
Speaker 1: where you're reading it. Here's why you get if you
Speaker 1: were accepted in or you you make it into the
Speaker 1: status of being a member of s ORG. In exchange
Speaker 1: for your membership, you get room and board and training
Speaker 1: and auditing. And again remember we talked about auditing a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier, which it turns out is often very expensive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's like actually a good benefit. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: these doesn't do these things for free. As a member,
Speaker 1: there's course or dues as there are lots of churches,
Speaker 1: so if you want to go through processes, you have
Speaker 1: to pay. But as a member of c OR, you
Speaker 1: don't pay for that. Yeah, you're you're you're in a simple,
Speaker 1: simplified version, you're an employee. Yeah, and I know if
Speaker 1: we're from so I from talking to and reading about scientologists,
Speaker 1: I know some people wind up putting a lot of
Speaker 1: money in auditing over the years. Yeah, it can be
Speaker 1: an expensive thing. And the reason I made the analogy
Speaker 1: that's like being an employee is that you also get
Speaker 1: a small weekly allowance or stipend. Here's the thing that
Speaker 1: really caught me off guard about Sea Org is that, Okay,
Speaker 1: you have to pledge your loyalty. I totally get that,
Speaker 1: But it was the contract in the length of the
Speaker 1: contract that you sign, which is not a billion years.
Speaker 1: We did not make that up. That is real. No,
Speaker 1: that is absolutely based on you know, everywhere it says
Speaker 1: it's a billion years and they have a uh and
Speaker 1: I actually I fact checked this to make sure that
Speaker 1: they were not that this was accurate. The Sea Ords
Speaker 1: motto is re venomous, which is Latin and loosely translated
Speaker 1: means we come back. It was like it was a
Speaker 1: good try at pronunciation, Steve. It was a W in
Speaker 1: the thing that I read that put it phonetically, and
Speaker 1: I was like, why that W doesn't work? About it? So, basically,
Speaker 1: how do they just work out when you when you
Speaker 1: die and are reborn a new body. Do they come
Speaker 1: and they come and get you, impress you into service
Speaker 1: or do you just know I think you're called But
Speaker 1: I guess that would be the theory that the theory
Speaker 1: of you know, like uh, reincarnation or things like that.
Speaker 1: Is that a great example? It would be something similar
Speaker 1: to the Dalai Lama. Certainly there's that aspect of the
Speaker 1: higher ranking people go and find that child that's going
Speaker 1: to be the Doali Lama, but also that that child
Speaker 1: is like call, like they know in their heart of
Speaker 1: hearts or whatever. So I think it's it's a combination
Speaker 1: of that, and I can't I can't imagine that. It means,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe see or is going out there
Speaker 1: and like, hey, you you signed a contract, you're coming
Speaker 1: with us, But I don't get the impression. I The
Speaker 1: impression I have is that people show up and say
Speaker 1: it's weird. I was you know this. I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in this and I don't really know why, and they say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you probably sign a contract a billion years ago. Let's
Speaker 1: sign another one. Let's re up and we'll go from there,
Speaker 1: you know, carrier like that once. Okay, all right, well
Speaker 1: I think that's enough about the basic structures and tenants
Speaker 1: of scientology to get us into the story. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: we still haven't even started talking about you started talking.
Speaker 1: We'll be quick about it. I mean, because obviously everybody
Speaker 1: knows enough about scientology from our thorough investigations, not even
Speaker 1: not even not even Okay, well, let's let's move on
Speaker 1: to the subject of today's show, which is Michelle Misscavage,
Speaker 1: formally known before she was married by her maiden name
Speaker 1: of Michelle Barnett. Michelle's parents were Barney and Flow Barnett,
Speaker 1: and they were sorry his parents named him that. Um.
Speaker 1: They were members of the church in the seventies, and
Speaker 1: they they really believed in the church to the point
Speaker 1: that they gave their daughters over to the custody and
Speaker 1: care of the church. So Michelle and her sister Clarice
Speaker 1: became wardens of the church for lack of a better term, well, okay,
Speaker 1: they were put in the church's care and their parents
Speaker 1: just basically their their parents weren't doing anything. The girls
Speaker 1: when they have they have one of these, um they have.
Speaker 1: There's a scientology church and school up a kind of
Speaker 1: near Portland. It's not actually in Portland, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of near there. Um actually know somebody who works there. Uh,
Speaker 1: and it's a boarding school. So I think essentially what
Speaker 1: you do, it's not like, oh, you're just like a
Speaker 1: ward of the state, award of the church as you
Speaker 1: send them off to their boarding school and they lived
Speaker 1: there and then they do their summer programs through the
Speaker 1: church and then they you know, go back to their
Speaker 1: boarding school, and then once they grow joy they become
Speaker 1: you know, they start working at the church and joins whatever.
Speaker 1: You know. So it's not so much of like, oh,
Speaker 1: just go away just like be kids in the church.
Speaker 1: It's not. It's also not like becoming a nun. I
Speaker 1: would say, it's not, you know, but it's it's more
Speaker 1: of a you just become entrenched in the church itself
Speaker 1: because you you go to boarding school, your friends are there.
Speaker 1: It's just that that would just be my like little
Speaker 1: addendum to that, like and that's my understanding of how
Speaker 1: and I have a hard time finding a lot of information.
Speaker 1: But this is back in the seventies, so the church
Speaker 1: has been around twenty years. L Ron Hubbard is making
Speaker 1: changes in making additions to the church. So I don't
Speaker 1: know that that structure was in place at that time,
Speaker 1: but from what I can figure out, Michelle herself was
Speaker 1: about ten or eleven years old at the time, and
Speaker 1: she from that point forward was raised and educated by
Speaker 1: the church and surrounded by its members. Uh, and she
Speaker 1: evidently really excelled. She did really well. She became a
Speaker 1: member of what is and this is gonna be another acoryum,
Speaker 1: what is known as CMO, which stands for Commodore's Messenger Organization,
Speaker 1: and that is a group that is inside of SORG itself.
Speaker 1: So again we're talking about layers within layers of the elite.
Speaker 1: Okay um. In N one, she married David Miss Cabbage.
Speaker 1: He was also a member of CMO, and she was
Speaker 1: seen on a regular basis by members, and she took
Speaker 1: on duties. From that point forward, she became a liaison
Speaker 1: to some of the more famous members of the church. Again,
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise was one of the people that she worked
Speaker 1: directly with. Uh. This this is a little bit of
Speaker 1: a sidetrack, but this is an odd bit of information
Speaker 1: that I came across. Every accounting of her marriage and
Speaker 1: her relationship with David gives me the impression that it
Speaker 1: wasn't a romantic relationship. People never saw them kiss, no affection,
Speaker 1: no touching. Its appears to have been a very formal arrangement.
Speaker 1: Well there's you know, who knows, maybe maybe the roses
Speaker 1: off the bloom and you know, they're just getting a
Speaker 1: little tired of each other. But this is this is
Speaker 1: kind of from the beginning. But also the thing that
Speaker 1: I think might help explain some of that, because I
Speaker 1: did a little digging on this is sea Org is
Speaker 1: really conservative and it forbids pretty much anything that is
Speaker 1: sexual in nature in its members, I would assume, except
Speaker 1: for approcreation. Except for approcreation, so there's no no premarital anything.
Speaker 1: And I kind of get the impression that sex is
Speaker 1: for making children and that's it, which would explain why
Speaker 1: they weren't lovey, dovey, huggy kissy all the time, but
Speaker 1: it would also what they believe it could also be.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a number of American political marriages
Speaker 1: that you can look at and say, well, that really
Speaker 1: just looks like a partnership of two people who saw
Speaker 1: the benefit of being married and that it would improve
Speaker 1: their status to be married, and they just made it romantic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it probably happens. I still think Bill and Bill and
Speaker 1: Hillary you're obviously talking about. Probably. I think they probably
Speaker 1: cared about each other at the beginning, but that was
Speaker 1: gone probably after Bill's fifth affair. I mean, I would
Speaker 1: say that they're definitely certainly not the only people that
Speaker 1: come to mind in that sort of and you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's you know, it could be
Speaker 1: any number of things. Yeah, I personally just had the
Speaker 1: impression that was based on the ideology they were following,
Speaker 1: but in sew York. But you, I mean, it's hard
Speaker 1: to say exactly. There are definitely couples in this world
Speaker 1: that do come from conservative places where like the only
Speaker 1: thing you'll ever see them doing is holding hands sometimes,
Speaker 1: and they get bashful if they're caught holding hands, and
Speaker 1: you know, that's just it's part of a lot of cultures.
Speaker 1: This is very true. In seven, I said, I think
Speaker 1: I mentioned this earlier. L Ron Hubbard passed away and
Speaker 1: left a power vacuum in the church. That was it
Speaker 1: like a sudden death. He how do I say this?
Speaker 1: He had been going downhill for a while. Okay, I
Speaker 1: guess mentally and physically what I've read. I generally just
Speaker 1: kind of have this kind of like weirdness in my
Speaker 1: brain about people who like are in these positions of
Speaker 1: power that are like on the slow decline and don't think, oh,
Speaker 1: you know would be good is naming a successor or
Speaker 1: okay whatever? Ce like fine, I honestly, you don't even
Speaker 1: have the problem with like, I'm gonna hold this office
Speaker 1: until like they pry it from my cold that hands.
Speaker 1: That's fine as long as you say, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: this office until they pry it from my cold that hands,
Speaker 1: at which point this person is in charge. But he
Speaker 1: did he didn't do that. He didn't do that. And
Speaker 1: this is this, this is a good point to put
Speaker 1: in that the Church of Scientology is waiting for his return. Well,
Speaker 1: there's at a lot they have a lot of campuses,
Speaker 1: and there's there's things at these campuses that are signs
Speaker 1: for him to go to for when he returns, things
Speaker 1: to encourage his return. So I almost wonder if some
Speaker 1: of it was he said I'll be right back, and
Speaker 1: some of it was people just denying that this was
Speaker 1: gonna happen. People deny death a lot. That's a tenant's
Speaker 1: fair got to do, you know, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you know, I mean, obviously we all know that
Speaker 1: we're going to die one day, you know, Nope, not happening.
Speaker 1: I'm going to live forever. But yeah, but we're all
Speaker 1: mean you can't functionalize, no. But but in this power vacuum,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of political jockeying. From the information
Speaker 1: that i've I've read for who was going to be
Speaker 1: in charge, there's here's an example of something that I
Speaker 1: came across. And obviously we all know I'll just you know,
Speaker 1: I'll pull the cat out of the bag. We know
Speaker 1: that David Miscabbage came out on top and he is
Speaker 1: now the head of the church. But there were things
Speaker 1: that were going on. Just before Hubbard died. He put
Speaker 1: out an apparent order that's circulated in Sea Org which
Speaker 1: promoted to scientologists. It was a husband and wife his
Speaker 1: The gentleman's name was Pat Broker and I don't have
Speaker 1: his wife's name, but they were going to be promoted
Speaker 1: to a new rank, which was loyal Officer, which made
Speaker 1: them the highest ranking members in the organization or short
Speaker 1: of Hubbard. David MS. Cabbage said that the order was forged,
Speaker 1: and I don't know the details of what happened, but
Speaker 1: from what I understand, that didn't actually ever go through.
Speaker 1: They didn't get that position, and I'm going to make
Speaker 1: a presumption that that would not have allowed him to
Speaker 1: move into the position of chairman of the board. So
Speaker 1: so after he after he came out on top, what
Speaker 1: happened to Pat Broker and his wife. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't. I that's the only information
Speaker 1: that I came across about them. I can't find any
Speaker 1: specific information saying what happened to them within the church.
Speaker 1: I don't. I just don't, simply don't know. Once David
Speaker 1: had his position, Michelle was also given a position befitting
Speaker 1: the first Lady of Scientology, and that her title was
Speaker 1: Chairman of the Board's Assistant. She worked in the executive office,
Speaker 1: and from what I gather, her primary responsibility officially was
Speaker 1: to manage the dozen or so employees that were in
Speaker 1: that office. I guess I if it were, it's my
Speaker 1: reading of the situation that it's it's very similar to
Speaker 1: uh CEO, and an executive assistant in the position of
Speaker 1: executive assistant is often kind of diminished to this leg well,
Speaker 1: he just she just does whatever the CEO wants her
Speaker 1: to do. But I think that a's that misses a
Speaker 1: lot of the nuances I mean executive assistance. If their
Speaker 1: CEO has gone there in charge there, they are instrumental.
Speaker 1: You know, there are many organizations in which executive assistants
Speaker 1: are senior staff or sea level employees, even though they
Speaker 1: don't have that official title. So I think it would
Speaker 1: be naive to say, like, oh, she was just like
Speaker 1: a gopher aaron boy for her husband in that capacity.
Speaker 1: I think that it's more like being the first lady
Speaker 1: in that like she has a lot of responsibilities. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like being executive assistant or office manager or something,
Speaker 1: not just like we'll go get me coffee and like
Speaker 1: make babies. True, but it also unofficially in things that
Speaker 1: have come across her job was as you kind of said,
Speaker 1: the the executive assistant, as you would say, was her
Speaker 1: job duty was to go getting coffee. But really she
Speaker 1: was supposed to do She basically did whatever he wanted
Speaker 1: her to do. He she did whatever her husband dictated.
Speaker 1: And again this is from the reporting that I've come
Speaker 1: across and and all of that, so I can't confirm that.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know that's that's not the most
Speaker 1: flattering descriptions, and I you know, we don't do this
Speaker 1: a lot. But I'm going to cite a source here,
Speaker 1: which is there's a Vanity Fair article and it's quite lengthy,
Speaker 1: and the author did a bunch of interviews with people
Speaker 1: who have since left the church, and I feel like
Speaker 1: there were not a lot of names, so that that
Speaker 1: that's where some of this internal executive level stuff that
Speaker 1: I'm I'm repeating here, that's where I got that, all right,
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's that's totally fair. It's just been my
Speaker 1: kind of understanding of other stuff. So let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about David. After David assumed power, things,
Speaker 1: and I used that phrase loosely, after he became chairman
Speaker 1: of the board, things in the executive level of the church,
Speaker 1: they appear to become more and more tense. And his
Speaker 1: behavior and this is my impression based on the information
Speaker 1: I've read read this is I read read his behavior
Speaker 1: seems to evolved or devolved to the point of almost meglemania. Again,
Speaker 1: these are from people who have left the church, saying
Speaker 1: that he became quite cruel and quite brutal to people. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I can't back any of that up, but there's
Speaker 1: enough people that say that it's it's hard. It's hard
Speaker 1: when anybody leaves a group like you know, scientology, to
Speaker 1: you kind of have to grain of salt it, you know,
Speaker 1: you want to leave that stuff. I think that a
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff about scientology that you read, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like it's believed because like you kind of
Speaker 1: want to believe in this like big shadow organization. He's
Speaker 1: the same sort of thing as like the Illuminati almost
Speaker 1: to me, where yeah, where you're like, oh gosh, the
Speaker 1: shadow organization that probably exists, and they're like super evil
Speaker 1: and everything is the worst and everybody's in on it.
Speaker 1: It's this huge conspiracy. So I think that you have
Speaker 1: to be careful on like both sides. I think that
Speaker 1: there's probably a middle ground truth behind every story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there probably is. But I do have to say though,
Speaker 1: having having a bet a few scientologists in my time,
Speaker 1: they tend to be pretty devoted to the to the church,
Speaker 1: and they seem to be the kind of people who
Speaker 1: really really want to stay with the church, and I'm
Speaker 1: taking what they must take quite an extreme thing to
Speaker 1: drive them out. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that
Speaker 1: you find that within all religions. You know, I know
Speaker 1: a lot of Christians who are really dedicated to the church,
Speaker 1: and you know, that's it's kind of the same argument
Speaker 1: either way. Well let's let's let's get back to the
Speaker 1: story here. Yeah, So in other words, he is he's
Speaker 1: becoming more cruel. Um, He's he's obviously going the wrong direction.
Speaker 1: He's getting more thetent's in him. What Michelle in her role,
Speaker 1: her official role, she seems to have taken on the
Speaker 1: task of putting herself between her husband and the staff,
Speaker 1: um to the point of running interference for everyone. And again,
Speaker 1: this is my interpretation, is in attempt to spare them
Speaker 1: from the actions that she's seen him, you know, presenting
Speaker 1: to others. UM. Now, obviously that's going to take its toll,
Speaker 1: that's going to wear someone down, and it seems to
Speaker 1: have done that to Michelle, and that actually helps kind
Speaker 1: of it lines up with the events that take place
Speaker 1: before she disappears from the public eye. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and six, Michelle was given the task by David of
Speaker 1: creating a new organization board or again as everything seems
Speaker 1: to be shortened in this religion organ board, they call
Speaker 1: it the organ board with Originally l Ron Hubbard had
Speaker 1: created the organization Board, which as I understand, was seven
Speaker 1: divisions of the church that had different functions and duties,
Speaker 1: and for reasons that I don't know, David had decided
Speaker 1: that it needed to be reorganized and restructured, and he
Speaker 1: had assigned this task to several people. Every time somebody
Speaker 1: came back with something, he rejected it. He just he
Speaker 1: didn't like what they gave, and so he finally gave
Speaker 1: it to his wife and said, you can do this.
Speaker 1: It seems like the kind of case of like, I
Speaker 1: don't like it, change it. Well, what do you want?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just don't like it. Change it.
Speaker 1: That's that's exactly, you know. Obviously it sounded to me
Speaker 1: like there was actually sort of it was sort of
Speaker 1: a group effort by Michelle and a few other people
Speaker 1: to put something together, a plan that But yeah, and
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is like, you know, at
Speaker 1: a certain point, after the third or fourth rejection, if
Speaker 1: I think they should have gone to David and said, hey,
Speaker 1: you need to be in this group because sending us
Speaker 1: off to waste our time and then you rejected, I mean,
Speaker 1: just come in here and tell us what you think
Speaker 1: of what you want. But that's the hard part. I mean, again,
Speaker 1: we made the analogy of a corporate structure. You see
Speaker 1: that in corporate institutions, and you think this would be
Speaker 1: so much simpler if but that's just not the way
Speaker 1: it happened. Yeah, it's too bad. But here's the thing
Speaker 1: ing Michelle finished the task, and she went ahead and
Speaker 1: began to tell people what the changes were and give
Speaker 1: them their new jobs based on those changes. She did
Speaker 1: this without running this by David first, which appears to
Speaker 1: have been a giant problem. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: so these are two events running in tandem. While she
Speaker 1: was doing that, David had evidently gone to stay in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles for a period of time, and she had
Speaker 1: taken the opportunity to renovate their living quarters. And they
Speaker 1: lived at what is known as Gold Base, which is
Speaker 1: it's in Riverside County, California, UM. And that meant that,
Speaker 1: of course all their stuff had to be boxed up
Speaker 1: and moved around and set aside. And when he found
Speaker 1: came back and he found out what his wife had
Speaker 1: done with both the organ board and the renovations, he
Speaker 1: keeps saying borg but it's or board, it's they're not
Speaker 1: creatures from They're not Psylon creatures from Star Trek Boorg
Speaker 1: their board board board and just that you just like
Speaker 1: to clarify, and they're not borgs. Okay. Well, when he
Speaker 1: got back and he found out what his wife had done,
Speaker 1: he was supremely pissed, not happy at all, and he
Speaker 1: stripped her of her job title and he assigned her
Speaker 1: a handler. Oh. She was seen in two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven at her father's funeral with her handler in tow
Speaker 1: and that was it. She wasn't seen again in public
Speaker 1: from that point forward. Yeah, And I think that she
Speaker 1: actually between this incident in two thousand and six and
Speaker 1: it was it was in December of two thousand six,
Speaker 1: is when it happens, So we're looking at a eight
Speaker 1: month period. Now. She actually disappeared at red not long
Speaker 1: after this, and that the only time, the only time
Speaker 1: she reappeared was in August two thousand seven, with her
Speaker 1: last public sight. Yeah. Correct, and that has not been
Speaker 1: seen since. The official statement. The official line from the
Speaker 1: Church of Scientology is that Michelle's fine, She's fine, She's fine.
Speaker 1: Does she stop questioning? Is she's fine? She's working on
Speaker 1: a special project special the church is completely outside of
Speaker 1: the public. Yeah's with an she's just taking some time.
Speaker 1: This is happening on the laptop in home. I mean,
Speaker 1: she spent all that time on the renovations. She might
Speaker 1: well be enjoying them. Totally fine, it's fine, it's fine,
Speaker 1: She's fine. Everything is fine. That's my interpretation of that statement,
Speaker 1: just saying, do either of you know who Leah REMANI is?
Speaker 1: Actually I had. I didn't know her by name. I
Speaker 1: had seen her on TV a few times, and I
Speaker 1: had not realized she was a scientologist. Lea Remini. She
Speaker 1: plays the wife on the TV show The King of Queens.
Speaker 1: Until about a year ago, she was a member of
Speaker 1: the church. She had also developed a friendship with Michelle.
Speaker 1: I thought Michelle was her handler, right, I mean she
Speaker 1: wasn't her handler, wasn't she the Oh no, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Liaison is the word I was looking for. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Were you gonna mentioned that Scientology has this this place
Speaker 1: in l a that they called the Celebrity Center. No,
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to go into that, Yeah, celebrity Well,
Speaker 1: I saw this BBC News thing about that was like
Speaker 1: documentary about the Scientologists, and they interviewed ly ever meaning
Speaker 1: and this was before her break with the church, and
Speaker 1: she was just all, you know, all just glowing about
Speaker 1: the church and how wonderful it was. And they interviewed
Speaker 1: her at the Celebrity Center. Well, and she's not so
Speaker 1: glowing about the church. Because obviously left and she was
Speaker 1: friends with Michelle. She is one of the few outspoken
Speaker 1: people who has asked about Michelle's whereabouts vocally and rather publicly.
Speaker 1: She went so far as in two thousand thirteen to
Speaker 1: file a missing person's report with the Los Angeles Police Department, saying,
Speaker 1: this woman's disappeared. I guess if you haven't seen like
Speaker 1: a close friend for like, what is it, six plus years,
Speaker 1: six years or so, you probably start to get suspicious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that I think the reason she got angry and
Speaker 1: left the church is that people were people were just
Speaker 1: stone walling her, like, why can't you just give me
Speaker 1: an answer? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a very simple question.
Speaker 1: You think it could be a very simple where Yes, Well,
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Police Department investigated, and they say that
Speaker 1: they met Michelle and then she's fine. From what I read,
Speaker 1: and I haven't read that they actually went to her home,
Speaker 1: but they did actually speak to her in person. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: they spoke to her in person. The information I had
Speaker 1: said that they had the detectives had confirmed that they
Speaker 1: had met her and knew who she was, and that yes,
Speaker 1: she was fine. So we're saying this is a case
Speaker 1: of like one woman being like, I don't really want
Speaker 1: to be friends with that person anymore, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to stop returning her phone calls, and then that person
Speaker 1: being like, well she's dead, right, that's all. That's not
Speaker 1: a fair one now, because I mean she lear remdi
Speaker 1: uh would see. They would have events and all sorts
Speaker 1: of things like that. Clearly major once who was what
Speaker 1: was the wedding that her husband, David Muscavage was the
Speaker 1: best man at that was and that was since two
Speaker 1: thou seven, So yeah, but his wife wasn't there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and was there and his wife wasn't there, and that
Speaker 1: made her really suspicious. Yeah, I think that's fair for
Speaker 1: a reason. They used to they used to exchange Christmas
Speaker 1: cards and gifts and stuff like that, and that ceased. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, like the thing I guess the thing that's
Speaker 1: like a little weird about that is that, like the
Speaker 1: the excuse that the Church of Scientology is giving, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that she's fine, she's just working on something out of
Speaker 1: the public eye. But that doesn't mean that, like you
Speaker 1: stopped going to these social events, right, doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: stop calling your friend even if okay, fine, like let's
Speaker 1: say that also she doesn't want to be friends with
Speaker 1: this woman. It doesn't mean that, like you don't go
Speaker 1: to a wedding at which your husband is the best man.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you don't you stop going to
Speaker 1: these galas and things like that, or even just like
Speaker 1: internal parties. It means that you like take a step
Speaker 1: back out of the public eye and like stop giving
Speaker 1: press conferences. Maybe. But well, there's and we'll we'll get
Speaker 1: into some reasons for why it could be such an
Speaker 1: extreme removal from everything. Is it she's becoming Tom Cruise? Okay,
Speaker 1: not at all? Okay, Well, and and quite obviously we've
Speaker 1: told the story. Now we're in our theory. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: I have essentially three theories here for us, first of
Speaker 1: which is not the happiest theory, which is that she's
Speaker 1: dead by Tom Cruise. No, no, don't, don't even joke
Speaker 1: about that. It is entirely possible that she's passed away. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not pointing fingers to say that somebody killed her
Speaker 1: or ordered her death, or how she died or anything
Speaker 1: like that. But for somebody to disappear that completely usually
Speaker 1: requires that they are no longer living. And I've seen
Speaker 1: some stuff about her husband where he has said that
Speaker 1: he wanted her gone forever, and I've also seen things
Speaker 1: that said that before everything went to Helen a hand asked,
Speaker 1: she was extremely unhappy. So you know, to me, it's
Speaker 1: entirely possible that she might not be here anymore. But
Speaker 1: I have you know, there's this weird thing about well,
Speaker 1: the church was all she knew, and that's her entire life.
Speaker 1: So so you know, what where does that leave us
Speaker 1: if she's no longer among the living. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe she took her own life. Okay, so let's let's
Speaker 1: run down this is that. Okay, she she is at
Speaker 1: the top, She is second in command for all intents
Speaker 1: and purposes, and then her world gets turned upside down
Speaker 1: and she is shunned from power. Well, she doesn't have
Speaker 1: the option to leave the church in her mind, because
Speaker 1: everyone she knows in her entire life is based in
Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology. And she probably actually doesn't have
Speaker 1: a lot of useful skills It could be applied in
Speaker 1: the outside world either. I think useful is the wrong term.
Speaker 1: Marketable and knowing how to put that out in the
Speaker 1: world to make yourself an employee of someplace. It is
Speaker 1: probably a better way to put that and more. Yeah, yeah, now,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I think we've got into this
Speaker 1: a little bit. But you know, like I said, she
Speaker 1: couldn't just leave the church because people who leave the
Speaker 1: church are ostracized by anyone who is still in the church.
Speaker 1: And if every person that you know is a member
Speaker 1: of the organization, where does that leave you. You're denounced,
Speaker 1: you don't exist. And could you imagine trying to make
Speaker 1: I mean, people do it, but for someone who's been
Speaker 1: in that organization for that length of time, at that age,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's conceivable. Yeah. The thing about it,
Speaker 1: a lot of the people that have left are people
Speaker 1: who have with with some obvious exceptions. There's people who
Speaker 1: went in as kind of like adults, and once they
Speaker 1: left the church, they still had family who were outside
Speaker 1: the church and friends that they used to know that
Speaker 1: they can go back to. Whereas this person was in
Speaker 1: it from from the very beginning and probably didn't know
Speaker 1: anybody who wasn't a scientologist at least that was not
Speaker 1: friends with anybody exactly, so her her resources are limited
Speaker 1: outside the church. Yeah, it was. It would have been
Speaker 1: a tough trying to leave the church for her would
Speaker 1: have been a tough thing. Here's the problem with Michelle
Speaker 1: being dead theory. I have a problem with it. Well,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of problems with him, but my
Speaker 1: major problem with it is that the Los Angeles Police
Speaker 1: Department says they met her. Yeah, well, if she's dead,
Speaker 1: how do they meet her? Well, I mean I've seen
Speaker 1: pictures of her and like, she it's not like she's
Speaker 1: looking that it would be hard to with the right
Speaker 1: makeup artist and some good sunglasses. I mean, she looks
Speaker 1: kind of normal to me. She's not. They're just pictures
Speaker 1: of her, and they're all kind of like crappy pictures.
Speaker 1: You would be easy to just say even you know,
Speaker 1: like on the missing reports flyer or missing person's flyer,
Speaker 1: the picture of her is like not good, like it
Speaker 1: could be any Like I have friends that could look
Speaker 1: like that for I mean, you know, well, and the
Speaker 1: cops would have never these police officers who went to
Speaker 1: meet her would have never had occasion to meet her before.
Speaker 1: So the only thing they could go off as a photo, which,
Speaker 1: like you said, if I'm going to say a double,
Speaker 1: if there was a double, then we can say that
Speaker 1: maybe this theory has some a leg to stand on.
Speaker 1: But that's that's really to me pushing it. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I guess for me, my big problem with this theory
Speaker 1: is that, like it's super easy, like okay, Like this
Speaker 1: is a very insular religion, right, with a lot of
Speaker 1: things that people don't understand. So it's easy to say,
Speaker 1: like it's part of our religion that like autopsies not
Speaker 1: happen on bodies, right, Okay, easy, And then it's very
Speaker 1: easy to say, oh, she slipped and fell and it's
Speaker 1: super tragic that she's dead. Now, I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense for an organization to cover up a death
Speaker 1: when you like to just like lie about her being alive,
Speaker 1: for instance, right when it's so easy to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she was having a hard time and mixed pills, or
Speaker 1: there's so many different accidental death things that could happen.
Speaker 1: You stage a car accident for Christ's sake. I mean,
Speaker 1: like it's so easy to just have all of these things,
Speaker 1: especially for an organization or religion as large as scientology,
Speaker 1: that like, even if her death was under mysterious circumstances,
Speaker 1: you can make it look reasonable and then just say no,
Speaker 1: you're not having an autopsy, we're going to cremate her
Speaker 1: and then that's it. She'll come back in another life
Speaker 1: and if she wants to tell you then then she'll
Speaker 1: tell you then. But I just I just have such
Speaker 1: a hard time with the like, well, let's just yeah,
Speaker 1: let's just carry on like she's alive. That for me,
Speaker 1: that's like the biggest part of it. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and also I think she's probably lie because you know,
Speaker 1: the cops are you know, detectives and actually met her,
Speaker 1: and you know they're not babes in the woods. These
Speaker 1: guys realize that, you know, they probably had some way
Speaker 1: to verify that she was actually who she said she was.
Speaker 1: How would be my only guest driver's do you think
Speaker 1: that when you're when a cop is going to check
Speaker 1: on a missing person's report and the person shows up,
Speaker 1: the first thing they do is whip out the ink path?
Speaker 1: I think I think it just it depends on the situation.
Speaker 1: I don't have the problem Joe has. I'll be honest
Speaker 1: with you. I mean, if somebody says, like, here's my idea,
Speaker 1: and like, oh, I've lost a little weight and like
Speaker 1: dyed my hair, it's I know it's weird, but it's
Speaker 1: l A. So that's what happens. It happens, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I definitely have had ideas in the past where
Speaker 1: I've been like, well, I know, I've like lost twenty pounds.
Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't really look like me so much anymore,
Speaker 1: and they're like, we'll get a new one, and You're like, okay,
Speaker 1: I will like it. If she has all of the
Speaker 1: information of that person, she passes that person. I mean,
Speaker 1: they could find somebody who looks just like have you
Speaker 1: seen pictures of her? Yeah? She It would be super
Speaker 1: easy in LA especially to find somebody who looked like
Speaker 1: that to me at least. But the problem with this
Speaker 1: is is that once you've once you've found this double
Speaker 1: and you fool the police, then you have somebody you
Speaker 1: have to murder. No, you pay her enough money, I mean,
Speaker 1: like give her a couple of million dollars and or
Speaker 1: if she's a member that's also the church, then I
Speaker 1: mean there are ways to convince people that that's part
Speaker 1: of their duties as a member. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: want to be labor this to what I'm saying, No,
Speaker 1: none of us do, none of us like it. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying that that creates another loose end. Even if
Speaker 1: even if you paid her a million bucks, even remember
Speaker 1: the church. That's a big old loose end, it is.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's no really, no real reason
Speaker 1: to believe that she's dead personally because scientology, I mean,
Speaker 1: whatever you say about it, and people say a lot
Speaker 1: of bad stuff about it, there's no record of any
Speaker 1: scientologists ever murdering anybody, not that, not that I know.
Speaker 1: But let's let's let's move Yeah, the church. We're going
Speaker 1: to move forward to the next which is that the
Speaker 1: church is telling the truth. It's completely possible that what
Speaker 1: they say is accurate. I know Devin is shaking her
Speaker 1: head there with me. Okay, we've already talked about how
Speaker 1: much of Michelle's life was and is and was about
Speaker 1: the Church. Here's what we need to consider is that
Speaker 1: maybe it is it is true that she is working
Speaker 1: in the background pursuing projects for them, and she just
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be in the prying eyes of the
Speaker 1: press and the congregation. And bear with me. There's a
Speaker 1: couple of things about the church that I want to
Speaker 1: go into that may help explain some of this. We talked.
Speaker 1: We've talked already about auditing that audit process. There's also
Speaker 1: two other practices that I've I've read about. One is
Speaker 1: called introspection rundown and the other one is set check. Okay,
Speaker 1: these practices have been legally reviewed because people have raised
Speaker 1: some concerns and issues about them, and there is allegations
Speaker 1: that their processes that are used for indoctrination or re
Speaker 1: indoctrination into the church. And it's possible that Michelle went
Speaker 1: through these processes. I'm not saying that she did, but
Speaker 1: here's what they are. Is introspection rundown is a process
Speaker 1: that is used specifically to help with people who have,
Speaker 1: according to the church, psychotic episodes. It could be construed
Speaker 1: that her behavior prior to everything that happened at the
Speaker 1: end of December of two thousand and six was us
Speaker 1: iconic episode and she was treated for that. And after
Speaker 1: she was treated, she took up another job in the
Speaker 1: church that had less stress. So the public and the
Speaker 1: job was too much. But do you have an idea
Speaker 1: what introspection rundown actually is. It's it's a muddy mess.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into it, but it is.
Speaker 1: It is something where the church uses some techniques to
Speaker 1: help people that are having some psychotic issues, and I
Speaker 1: didn't go too far into it, and I think, again,
Speaker 1: this is one of those things that we've got to
Speaker 1: kind of take the line of if you want to
Speaker 1: really delve into it, I'm going to leave that up
Speaker 1: to folks to go onto their own. But the other
Speaker 1: thing that she could have gone through is the one
Speaker 1: that we talked about called set check. And set check is,
Speaker 1: according to my research and the things that I've come across,
Speaker 1: is where the security personnel of the church will put
Speaker 1: people through repeated interrogations and there these interrogations are designed
Speaker 1: to elicit confessions or repentance or even submission for deeds
Speaker 1: and misdeeds to help you reset and come back to center.
Speaker 1: So she could have gone through that, and maybe she
Speaker 1: gave in, maybe it worked, I don't know, and then
Speaker 1: based on that, they put her in another place outside
Speaker 1: of everybody's perview. You're freaking out over there, I I am.
Speaker 1: You're right, And there's a lot of things that I
Speaker 1: want to say that I'm just going to go ahead
Speaker 1: not say, but I do. Just you know, the problem
Speaker 1: that I have with this is similar is that, like
Speaker 1: you don't miss your friend's wedding because you're going through
Speaker 1: this stuff, right, you appear for six years because of
Speaker 1: the stuff. I don't think she's voluntarily going through this.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like sex check is something that you voluntarily.
Speaker 1: But if the whatever she went through, whatever process, if
Speaker 1: she went through some kind of process, she came to
Speaker 1: a revelation. So let's just run down this this avenue.
Speaker 1: She comes to a revelation of these are the things
Speaker 1: that she needs to do. And I'm going to use
Speaker 1: this phrase and it might light some people's hair on
Speaker 1: fire to repent for her misdeeds against the church and
Speaker 1: her husband. Then she needs to serve the church, and
Speaker 1: she needs to do it in her way. We I
Speaker 1: mean there's historical accounts of people joining churches and abandoning
Speaker 1: everyone they know and leaving everything they know behind and
Speaker 1: I mean convents or crusades or whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: and going somewhere completely different and cutting off all communication
Speaker 1: because that doesn't let them do what they need to
Speaker 1: do for themselves and what they believe. I guess my
Speaker 1: argument against that is that like, that's not the church
Speaker 1: isn't then also telling the truth about that, right? I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's one thing to say, well, she's taking
Speaker 1: like a backburner role. It's like totally normal. It's another
Speaker 1: to say there were some problems and we've worked through
Speaker 1: them and whatever. I think that there's just like more
Speaker 1: explanation that you can do, and there's definitely a pr
Speaker 1: way to do it right. It's not like you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: she had a mental breakdown and them like we cleansed
Speaker 1: her and she's fine. Now, you know, I think that
Speaker 1: you there are pr ways to say that. And but
Speaker 1: but ere's ere's the thing we have seen so not
Speaker 1: in the church, scientology, not in religion. Let's just spin
Speaker 1: to politics for a second. We have seen things happen
Speaker 1: in politics that were strange or untoward or whatever they were,
Speaker 1: and somebody came in to do damage control, and the
Speaker 1: initial description or explanation whatever, their their initial concept of
Speaker 1: solving the problem was made it worse. But once that
Speaker 1: was there, they were screwed. They had to try to
Speaker 1: stick to it because the line is, here's my explanation.
Speaker 1: Don't waiver from that, because if you waiver from it,
Speaker 1: then you're opening up a bigger can of worms, and
Speaker 1: you've gotta stick with it. I just think that, like
Speaker 1: you can build on their initial thing, right, either initial
Speaker 1: thing was while she's taking a back burner position, and
Speaker 1: that's fine because you build on that. If this, like
Speaker 1: you know, if she did go through sec check or
Speaker 1: did do this introspection rundown is you know, essentially like
Speaker 1: in the Scientology version of a convent, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1: Maybe she went back to sea, or maybe she you know,
Speaker 1: there's so many different options that builds on the taking
Speaker 1: a back burner, and it gives the public at least
Speaker 1: more of a sense of a fleshed out story that
Speaker 1: might be believable in real as opposed to like she's
Speaker 1: taking backburner role. What I know, you want more information. Now,
Speaker 1: there's no more information. She's just out of the public eye.
Speaker 1: But but there there are a number of things within
Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology and and for people in general.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make this just about the church
Speaker 1: where you want to keep things privately. I mean, again,
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to defend if this is true, but
Speaker 1: people have I mean, I have a private life. There
Speaker 1: are things that I do in my life that I
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about and I don't want other
Speaker 1: people to know about. And so I just don't talk
Speaker 1: about it, so it's conceivable to say, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: the world wants to screw the world. They don't get
Speaker 1: to know. It's my life. I think there's a there's
Speaker 1: an end to that though, right, And you don't get
Speaker 1: to say that if you're the president of the United States,
Speaker 1: for instance. Right, So if you're like the leader of
Speaker 1: a large, powerful church, the pope doesn't get to say that.
Speaker 1: The pope doesn't get to say, like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just like took a sabbatical for whatever. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know. I think a great example is like the
Speaker 1: pope resigning, like you know, he couldn't just be like
Speaker 1: I just want to take like a more of a
Speaker 1: backburner role. He had to say, like, here are some
Speaker 1: specific reasons, and whether they are true or not, whether
Speaker 1: they were the main reasons or not. He came up
Speaker 1: with some reasons for that. So I think that's my
Speaker 1: big problem with this theory. I have problems with all
Speaker 1: the theories. I'll be honest with you. This theory is that,
Speaker 1: like you give, you give small specifics at the very least.
Speaker 1: If you're part of a public organization in the public
Speaker 1: eye for whatever reason, you're obligated. You have that obligation
Speaker 1: to your community to explain it a little bit at least. Well,
Speaker 1: and I know we've kicked the crap out of this,
Speaker 1: but do you have any final thoughts on this theory? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's crap because you know, if yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: if she was doing work in the background, you know,
Speaker 1: she's still in good terms with the church and everything
Speaker 1: and things are all everything's okay, okay. Meantime, meantime, there's
Speaker 1: all this stuff whirling around the internet saying, gee, what
Speaker 1: happened to Michelle. The simplest thing would be for the
Speaker 1: church to just produce her, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: the church would just say, you know, and Michelle, I mean,
Speaker 1: you'll go call a press conference. Let it, just let
Speaker 1: everybody know you're okay. Just say hey, I'm cool. Men
Speaker 1: show up on TMZ. That's all you mean, like truly
Speaker 1: post one selfie and you're fine. Yeah. People are getting
Speaker 1: all twitchy about this, Michelle, So just get out there.
Speaker 1: And I gotta get you back out there a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know. And uh, and so there's just no conceivable
Speaker 1: reason for them to stonewall. I mean, I'm in agreement
Speaker 1: with you as well. This is a weird one we
Speaker 1: we have and this is a very short list of theories,
Speaker 1: but we are we're really going into him. Here is
Speaker 1: our final theory is that she's locked up somewhere. This
Speaker 1: this is far and away the most popular one, and
Speaker 1: it's with good reason. Your hair is on finding. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, well again, I'm gonna I'm gonna lay out
Speaker 1: some some accountings and this is from the Vanity Fair
Speaker 1: article as well as a couple of other articles that
Speaker 1: I found online. Uh, and these are accounts from people
Speaker 1: who have left the church. We have a former church
Speaker 1: member by the name of John Brousseau, and he came
Speaker 1: forward and he said that Michelle is being held at
Speaker 1: a location. It's known as the Church of Spiritual Technology
Speaker 1: or the acronymic CST. Can't get rid of the acoryms.
Speaker 1: And it's located in north of San Bernardino, near Lake Arrowhead,
Speaker 1: which is in California, as most of their locations, their
Speaker 1: major locations are. And you might remember earlier when we
Speaker 1: were talking about some of the divisions, I had talked
Speaker 1: about the rd C, the one who uses legal uh
Speaker 1: motions to protect their rights and their copyrights. And all
Speaker 1: that well, all of that stuff is owned by CST.
Speaker 1: So R S t R r TC is defending what
Speaker 1: is owned by CST. And if you put write that
Speaker 1: all down sequentially on a piece of paper, it's crossword puzzled. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This campus, the one that's in uh near Lake Arrowhead,
Speaker 1: it's like five hundred acres. It's huge. It's a big
Speaker 1: campus and presumably quite a beautiful place if you've developed
Speaker 1: that much land for people to be at. Well, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. People refer to it. Uh we don't. They
Speaker 1: call it the whole, you know, as in when you're
Speaker 1: in prison and you're in the hole and you're in
Speaker 1: lock up the hole. That's not great. No, it's considered
Speaker 1: a place that people go to and they don't come
Speaker 1: back mail anybody who's there. Their mail and their phone
Speaker 1: calls are monitored. And I've seen pictures of the front
Speaker 1: gate and it's it's shocking because it's a wrought iron fence,
Speaker 1: which you think is nice, but it's got spikes inward
Speaker 1: and outward, mostly inward, which would further you're keeping people in. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well let's go back to so um he according to him,
Speaker 1: the CST headquarters there's several buildings on this campus house
Speaker 1: they house workers, and those workers are archiving. UM. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's there's vaults as Joe had talked about in
Speaker 1: the beginning, where they're etching all of the words of
Speaker 1: l Ron Hubbard and storing them in titanium boxes for
Speaker 1: future generations. UM. There is also UM I apologize, it's
Speaker 1: it's amazing the things that are on this campus. They're
Speaker 1: according to another person who is named Dylan Gill, who
Speaker 1: has also left the church and was a member of
Speaker 1: Sea Org. Uh, Dylan Gill evidently oversaw the construction of CST.
Speaker 1: There's a log cabin primed and set up for the
Speaker 1: return of l Ron Hubbard, and there's also a structure
Speaker 1: that is set up for the v I p s
Speaker 1: such as David Misscabbage and guys like Tom Cruise and
Speaker 1: a couple of the other famous people that we've talked
Speaker 1: about to go in the event of nuclear armageddon. So
Speaker 1: it's just an underground bucker, it's not above ground. That
Speaker 1: seems kind of counter now stead of kind of interesting though.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the rank and the file, the ranking,
Speaker 1: the rec and file, it's like your host, dude, sorry,
Speaker 1: it's just usking, our celebrity pal. Yeah, and a whole
Speaker 1: lot of booze that's actually not listening anywhere. It's interesting,
Speaker 1: actually the pictures of this place right as you're saying,
Speaker 1: it's like roar fence with whatever, and there's like one
Speaker 1: house on a hill and like that seems to be
Speaker 1: the only guy. Sure everything else is like underground or
Speaker 1: like weird cutouts or in the turf or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it probably is all a bunch of underground. And Rousseau
Speaker 1: says that he says that for seven years Michelle has
Speaker 1: lived and worked on the campus or the compound, whichever
Speaker 1: you want to call it, working to preserve those writings
Speaker 1: of l. Ron Hubbard. So it's it's possible that she
Speaker 1: was there at one point and then she went somewhere else.
Speaker 1: We don't know, but people have said that. I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of several people have come forward and said, no,
Speaker 1: she's there. I guess I I could see is like
Speaker 1: in a combination of that this theory and the previous theory, right,
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, so what she decided to do
Speaker 1: with her life is like become essentially like a monk
Speaker 1: transcribing the religions, well I transcription, you know, and so
Speaker 1: she just lives on this compound and like that's her
Speaker 1: life and that's fine. But then like but then in
Speaker 1: it's that question of like why wouldn't they just say, oh,
Speaker 1: that's what she decided to do that satisfies everybody's curiosity.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just you know, it could be too.
Speaker 1: Maybe she she accepted that life because the alternative was
Speaker 1: was banishment, complete banishment from the church. You know, it's
Speaker 1: for her what would have been maybe pretty dam Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's another possibility though, too, which is that her husband
Speaker 1: was basically sick of her and wanted to be rid
Speaker 1: of her, not necessarily for reasons that are her fault.
Speaker 1: Sounds like he's kind of I don't know, well, well
Speaker 1: hard to get along with. Yeah, it sounds like, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so he might have just wanted to be rid
Speaker 1: of her, and so he might have just said, look,
Speaker 1: I want to leave the church because I just don't
Speaker 1: want to have anything to do with you anymore. So
Speaker 1: here's the deal. We'll send you a check for a
Speaker 1: couple hundred grand year so you can live comfortably. You
Speaker 1: go off somewhere well will establish you in a new identity,
Speaker 1: you go live wherever you want to live, will send
Speaker 1: the checks. And she just did that. She just left
Speaker 1: and took on a new identity. I mean people do it, yeah,
Speaker 1: because uh, and it might be it might well be
Speaker 1: that maybe they had some discussions and maybe she might
Speaker 1: have actually at this point have been thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: I really don't believe this stuff anymore, because here we're
Speaker 1: talking a yeah, yeah, because it would be hard to
Speaker 1: to be around and see all these abuses of power
Speaker 1: and it's really a kind of quasi totalitarian structure and
Speaker 1: nature of the church and not at some point see
Speaker 1: the basic clash with the original writings of l. Ron Hubbard.
Speaker 1: What she was talking about peace, love, dope and all
Speaker 1: that stuff, and you look at the actual behavior of
Speaker 1: the church brass and she was involved with she was
Speaker 1: she worshiped him, She she totally did. But it might
Speaker 1: have been that she was just totally disillusioned. I guess
Speaker 1: for me, that seems like something that happens earlier in life,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that, like and that's a generalization,
Speaker 1: to be sure, but it just kind of seems like
Speaker 1: you hit a point where you're just kind of committed
Speaker 1: to that, all right, you've made that marriage. Your whole
Speaker 1: life has been this thing. You're in it, and maybe,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it was the kind of like abuses
Speaker 1: or like the aggression that she experienced from her husband
Speaker 1: or from you know, other people. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: it just kind of seems like you get disillusioned in
Speaker 1: your like early twenties, Like that's kind of the general
Speaker 1: time that like people leave teens in twenties. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, Steve's shaking his head at me.
Speaker 1: I totally I have to totally disagree. And that's well,
Speaker 1: there's there's there's stories of people who are in religions
Speaker 1: or relationships that don't hit their breaking point until they're
Speaker 1: in their fifties, sixties, seventies, and then they finally come
Speaker 1: to the realization that what they think is no longer
Speaker 1: what is. So I'm not disagreeing with you that she
Speaker 1: may have become disillusioned, but I'm saying that doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: always happen as a twenty or thirty something. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess this. This whole case is just like so frustrating
Speaker 1: to me because just the it's frustrating because the church
Speaker 1: just refuses to elaborate at all. You know. It's just
Speaker 1: like there are there are so many explanations and all
Speaker 1: of them could be totally reasonable if they would just say, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: one small, minor detail, but they're just like, now we
Speaker 1: said the one like tiny super can like it's just
Speaker 1: like this huge, like blanket statement. This is what we said,
Speaker 1: and that that's it. That's all you get. That's all
Speaker 1: you get about this person who has been like literally
Speaker 1: not heard from for seven six seven years, and that
Speaker 1: that's the thing that really bothers me is that it's
Speaker 1: just like, hey, we made this one blanket statement seven
Speaker 1: years ago, so you all should be good here. To
Speaker 1: me is one of the hardest facts to reconcile with,
Speaker 1: and it also in a way is the most heartwrenching.
Speaker 1: Is it's entirely possible that all of this is her decision.
Speaker 1: It is entirely possible that she has decided to do this,
Speaker 1: and whether she has put herself into exile intentionally or
Speaker 1: she is doing something that isn't a state of exile,
Speaker 1: if it's her choice, and from the things that I
Speaker 1: have read, she was not happy. The worst part is
Speaker 1: is that the person who could solve it the easiest
Speaker 1: is her by saying I'm done, and now we're kind
Speaker 1: of dealing with sort of a little minor variations I
Speaker 1: think on theory is I think a might a variation
Speaker 1: on on my theory, which is that he wanted her
Speaker 1: gone and paid her off. Another another possibility is that
Speaker 1: she suddenly realized that she couldn't deal with it anymore
Speaker 1: and she didn't believe it anymore, and she just And
Speaker 1: it might have been because well, here's here you got
Speaker 1: that would be kind of a blow to the church,
Speaker 1: because the wife of the head of the church leaves
Speaker 1: the church, and this would be, you know, shortly there
Speaker 1: thereafter followed by his niece leaving, and that's that's a
Speaker 1: double damaging bloo. Yeah, And so you know, they can't
Speaker 1: even if they have her locked up. It's kind of
Speaker 1: hard to keep somebody locked up forever. I mean, it's possible.
Speaker 1: But it might have been that they just thought, well, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe what we're gonna do here is pay you off,
Speaker 1: get you a new identity, and you go somewhere and
Speaker 1: we just won't talk about it. Well, yeah, so I'm
Speaker 1: trying to No, it wasn't. The differences between my earlier
Speaker 1: one is that is that in the first. In the
Speaker 1: first one it was her husband's idea, he wanted you're gone.
Speaker 1: Another another it could be that she just wanted out
Speaker 1: really bad and that because you know, not only would
Speaker 1: it be damaging because she's the wife at the head
Speaker 1: of the church, but also she knows where the bodies
Speaker 1: are buried. And I mean that ephemistically, of course. You know.
Speaker 1: The big question mark in my mind is that, like, okay,
Speaker 1: so I just I can't imagine existing and hearing please
Speaker 1: from like good friends they're saying like, hey, where are you,
Speaker 1: Like we're worried about you, like what's going on, and
Speaker 1: just like ignoring it, you know what I mean. So
Speaker 1: like for me, there I guess a couple options. One
Speaker 1: is that like she's not hearing them because she's dead.
Speaker 1: One is that she's not hearing them because she's locked
Speaker 1: up or quarantine in isolation. And then you know, the
Speaker 1: third one just like wouldn't make sense to me, is
Speaker 1: that like she's hearing them and choosing to ignore them,
Speaker 1: because like you know, we've all been in those situations
Speaker 1: where we're like, well, I don't really want to talk
Speaker 1: to that friend. But if a friend is like, hey,
Speaker 1: we were super close and you literally have just dropped
Speaker 1: off the face of the earth, And I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Can you just like tell me you're okay, Like give
Speaker 1: me one sign that you're okay, and you're and that
Speaker 1: person is so worried about you for six years. Can
Speaker 1: you imagine just ignoring somebody who was like your best
Speaker 1: friend for a really long time, like for six years.
Speaker 1: That person is reaching out to you and saying, like,
Speaker 1: I just want to know you're okay. Like it's cool
Speaker 1: if you don't need to be friends anymore, that's fine,
Speaker 1: but like, I just want to know if you're okay.
Speaker 1: So for me, it's just those two theories of like
Speaker 1: she's not hearing it because she's dead, or she's not
Speaker 1: hearing it because she doesn't have access to it. You know,
Speaker 1: I just can't imagine being in that position, because it's
Speaker 1: not just one friend. Surely there are other people in
Speaker 1: the organization who are saying, like, hey, we miss Michelle.
Speaker 1: What's going on with her? Like we want to talk
Speaker 1: to her. It's hard to imagine, but there are There
Speaker 1: are plenty of examples of people who have left family
Speaker 1: members behind, whether it's one or all, and they still
Speaker 1: had contact and they still heard those please for contact,
Speaker 1: and they chose to ignore them, whether they were out
Speaker 1: of anger or guilt or whatever it may be, people
Speaker 1: do that. I guess my like, my big thing is
Speaker 1: like with um, what's her name, Leo, what's her name?
Speaker 1: The actress? Right? Yeah, yeah, so right. I can see like,
Speaker 1: if you want to stay in the church, you like
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily like talk to that those people who
Speaker 1: are in the church. But then when somebody leaves, you
Speaker 1: talk to that, you know, I think that there's there's
Speaker 1: so much room there. I don't know. But the thing
Speaker 1: about it is you don't know that she hasn't contacted
Speaker 1: Leo remaining. She wasn't close to very many people the
Speaker 1: church at all, from what I understand. At some point,
Speaker 1: um she could obviously if she's been paid off and
Speaker 1: told to disappear, then she was probably also best part
Speaker 1: of the agreement told she can't contact anybody. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: certainly true. But I guess like the two people right
Speaker 1: would be like Lea Remini Thenice nice. But you don't
Speaker 1: know these people have these people have gone public and
Speaker 1: said that they want to know where she is. But
Speaker 1: Lea REMANI wasn't doing it for years and years and years.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was like, when does she start actually asking?
Speaker 1: It wasn't like in two thousand and seven, it was
Speaker 1: quite a while after. I don't remember when Tom Cruise
Speaker 1: got married, but at Tom Cruise's wedding, I think that's
Speaker 1: really got into hot water because she asked at the wedding, Yeah,
Speaker 1: where is she? Where is she? Yeah? Exactly, And so
Speaker 1: she probably asked a few times, and she asked a
Speaker 1: few times again, and Michelle, knowing, you know, hearing these
Speaker 1: reports and hearing about it, probably found a way to
Speaker 1: covertly contact her and let her know that she was okay.
Speaker 1: So but if she, if Michelle had contacted Lea remediing,
Speaker 1: then then after she was done reassuring it that she
Speaker 1: was okay, the next thing she would have said to
Speaker 1: her is, I want you to keep asking where the
Speaker 1: hell I am because they can't know that I've talked
Speaker 1: to you. And if you stop asking where where I am,
Speaker 1: They're going to smell a rat. So she might well
Speaker 1: have been in contact with Leader Remedians and a few
Speaker 1: of the people, but another in order to cover that up,
Speaker 1: they've got to keep asking the question. Yeah, I I
Speaker 1: really feel like we just took in drill a bunch
Speaker 1: of scribbles on a piece of paper and together I
Speaker 1: think we just did like a bunch of different dots
Speaker 1: and we were like connect them to something. I do
Speaker 1: want to say, Lea REMANI I I hope you find her,
Speaker 1: hope you've already found her, And what you need to
Speaker 1: do next time. Let's go file the missing person's complaint
Speaker 1: and when the technists go out to have an interview
Speaker 1: with her, you must insist on going along. That would
Speaker 1: that would solve our double issue. I don't know, It's
Speaker 1: just it's so huge and confusing, and this whole thing
Speaker 1: is just like a mess of like spaghetti monsters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and obviously unfortunately we haven't solved it. We definitely
Speaker 1: haven't solved Actually, I actually I'm gonna give Leo a
Speaker 1: little bit more advice, better ideas. Still detectives. The detectives
Speaker 1: have to bring her to see you, and that which
Speaker 1: means that she has to leave the compound. And if
Speaker 1: there's a problem with that, and for having for having six,
Speaker 1: why would there be a problem with her leaving the compound?
Speaker 1: And you know, then I'll come and see you and
Speaker 1: if there is a problem with leaving the compound, well,
Speaker 1: other textives can call him the swat team and that's
Speaker 1: that's yeah, No, I can't I that would work. Absolutely Well,
Speaker 1: We're gonna We're gonna stop with the story because I
Speaker 1: think that we have literally run down every alley and
Speaker 1: rabbit hole and conceivable that we could come up with.
Speaker 1: And however long we've been talking now I don't even
Speaker 1: know anymore. Um, if you have any thoughts on this story,
Speaker 1: you can, of course let us know. You can always
Speaker 1: go ahead and put a comment on our website. That
Speaker 1: website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com. At the same time,
Speaker 1: you can of course listen to and download episodes from
Speaker 1: the website. If you're not using that, you can of
Speaker 1: course use iTunes. If you're on iTunes, do take the
Speaker 1: time to leave a comment and a rating that helps
Speaker 1: other people find us and everybody. We're getting a bunch
Speaker 1: of new people and it's fantastic. We are on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Not super active on Twitter, but try, I will try.
Speaker 1: We are on Facebook. We have the Facebook page and
Speaker 1: the Facebook group, and we're having some I've been having
Speaker 1: some really fun discussions on there. There's a number of
Speaker 1: different places that you can stream the show. You can
Speaker 1: do it on Stitcher, there's uh FM something or other.
Speaker 1: I can't even think about it. I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: whole slew of places that were streaming online. And of course,
Speaker 1: if you're Michelle, you can always just send us an email. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would love that. Actually that little spot. Maybe she
Speaker 1: all she has to do is listen to podcast. Maybe Hi, Michelle,
Speaker 1: you can send us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And speaking of email, we do
Speaker 1: have one listener mail that I wanted to share. I
Speaker 1: know that this is a big episode. We normally don't
Speaker 1: do it, but it's a little pertinent to some things
Speaker 1: that are going on. So first off, this email is
Speaker 1: from Alyssa and she said that she, uh I found
Speaker 1: the podcast a while ago and it's my new favorite.
Speaker 1: I listened to him when I'm walking my dog and
Speaker 1: it keeps me entertained for an hour or so while
Speaker 1: she patrols the neighborhood, which I believe is code for
Speaker 1: uses the neighbor's law. But she, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: she likes the fact that there's a variety we're doing.
Speaker 1: Not only UFOs are missing persons, but we do the
Speaker 1: whole slew and anything and everything that we can come across.
Speaker 1: But she did bring up one concern that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to everybody about, which is that she wasn't
Speaker 1: able to download the episodes off of the website, like
Speaker 1: we have continually told everybody they could. I apologize, guys.
Speaker 1: It turns out the player that we were using, it's
Speaker 1: sort of broke at one point, and I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure when. Uh, and she, as well as one or
Speaker 1: two other people, let me know this week. They all
Speaker 1: kind of came at once and said, Hey, this isn't
Speaker 1: working by the time this episode comes out. How do
Speaker 1: we fixed? We will replace the player and we will
Speaker 1: make sure that you're able to download the show. So
Speaker 1: sorry about that, but it's fixed now. When this happens.
Speaker 1: By the time you're hearing this, Yeah, in that couple
Speaker 1: of weeks, I'll have figured out a solution. Alright, you
Speaker 1: guys over alright. Well, that's all I've got on this,
Speaker 1: So thanks everybody, and we'll talk to you next week folks. Bye, guys.