1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Who Blue Blue Yep, that's how we start the episode. 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: That's night had named the podcast just we can't start 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: with because Santa Claus was murdered at the beginning of 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: the first episode. He was He was murdered by Paul Schaefer, 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: who just zoomed in to shoot him in a river 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: with a bunch of kids watching Paul Schaefer. Um, the 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: audience can't see what. I'm shaking my head disapprovingly at you, 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: At Paul Shaffer. I don't know, but not the Paul 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Schaefer who had a Nazi colt in Chile. The Paul 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: Schaefer who worked on who was Letterman's band leader for years. 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: That's that's the one. Um. He shot Santa Claus two 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: in a lake. Uh So, Margaret kill Joy, how are you? 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm good, You're good. How are you? How are you 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: likeing the tupamarrows? Uh? You know, I'm like, I keep 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to see how it plays out. Yeah. Yeah, 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: they're because they're endearing. Yeah yeah. But and then even 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: like the fact that one of them ends up president. 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: That's like both interesting interesting in so many complicated ways 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: that I'm like, I want to see the steps that 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: took them there. Yes, because this does not happen often. 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes guerilla and surgeons win their insurgency and then become 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: the president or whatever. Sometimes guys who are like labor 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: organizers or like leftist politicians get imprisoned by a dictatorship 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: and then later become the president. Rarely is a guy 25 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: robbing banks with a handgun and then gets democratically elected 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: president of the country, like after spending years in a 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: in a dictatorship's prison cells. That is not a common story. 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: You don't run into that all the time. How much 29 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: did he change? I don't know, you know, because that's 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: all they're getting into. It's exciting, Yeah, I'm excited. So 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: by nineteen seventy five, the military had successfully rolled over 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: and destroyed the Tupamorrow nineteen seventy two. When the dictatorship 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: comes into place is when they start like going hardcore, 34 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: cracking down, and by any five, everybody's dead or in prison, 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: mostly in prison. And one of the people who was 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: thrown in prison was our friend in future president Jose Musica. 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: He was actually captured several times, he was arrested. He 38 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: was like imprisoned like four separate times. He broke out 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: of prison at least once. Um. But like the type 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: the thing he finally gets caught for is he's like 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: drinking in a bar after you know, robbing a bank 42 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: or something, and a cop who's there in plain clothes 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: recognizes him and gets a bunch of other cops and 44 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: they have a huge shootout in a bar and he 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: gets shot six times and survives. So again, when we're 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: saying when I when I say, this guy was like hardcore, 47 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: Like you can't you can't be much more committed than 48 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: getting shot six times in a gunfight with the police, 49 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: um as a revolutionary cred to bring him down, you know, 50 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: like I certainly can't. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, same. 51 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: But this is a little bit more hardcore than that. Um. 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: And he is one of the last two Pomorrows who 53 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: gets captured and locked up, and by the time he 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: gets locked up, he's fairly high like in the organization, 55 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: right is in Again he's kind of because in part 56 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: because he's one of the last ones to get to 57 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: get captured. Um. And so he's put in prison for 58 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: well over a decade. And I'm gonna quote from a 59 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: write up in the Guardian to describe like what his 60 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: time in the dictatorship's prison is like. The poet novelist 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: in playwright Mauricio Rosenkoff spent eleven years in a tiny 62 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: cell next to Musica. For many years, Rosenkoff told me, 63 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: the hostages could only communicate by tapping Morse code on 64 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: their cell walls. Allowed to use the toilet just once 65 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: a day, they urinated into their water bottles, allowing the 66 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: sediment to settle and drinking the rest because water was 67 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: also scarce. It was even worse for Musica, whose bullet 68 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: wounds had seriously damaged his guts. Solitary confinement drove them 69 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: half mad. Pepe became in That's Jose's nickname, became convinced 70 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: that a bugging device was hidden in in the ceiling. 71 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: It's imaginary static deafened him. He would put stones in 72 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: his mouth to stop himself from screaming. Rosen Cough now 73 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: eighty one told me Musica thought to obtain the one 74 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: item he needed most, a potty. Hostages were allowed occasional 75 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: family visits, so Donna Lucy bought it, brought him one, 76 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: but the guards refused to give it to him. One 77 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: day when his jailers held a party, Musica began to 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: scream for it. The commandant, embarrassed in front of his guests, relented. 79 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 1: Musica clung to his sole possession, a symbol of victory 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: over his jailers. Each time they were moved to a 81 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: new army camp, he refused to scrub it clean. Rosen 82 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,119 Speaker 1: Cooff recalled, we all have ticks left from that time. 83 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: When Pepe came out, he came out with all that baggage. 84 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: So he is, and some people, some sources, kind of 85 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: frame him getting the toilet as like this victory, him 86 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: being able to get the one thing he could, the 87 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: one like way to exert his autonomy was to force 88 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: them to give him his own toilet. Some people should 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: frame it as him like losing his mind a little 90 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: bit and just becoming obsessed with the idea of having 91 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: a toilet. Both are probably true. Um, they don't need 92 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: to those don't need to be in conflict with each other. 93 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: There's no way I think you would have to go 94 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: a little crazy in specific ways to survive fourteen years, 95 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: which is what he spends in a prison like this, 96 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: where you're tortured and beaten and starved regularly. Um, you don't. 97 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: You don't survive that by not changing at all, you know, 98 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: like that is um. Yeah, he does what he has 99 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: to do do. He survives. He's imprisoned for fourteen years. If 100 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: you're wondering how he stayed sane during that time in 101 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: his own words, we have an interview conducted by someone 102 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: from the site Upside Down World with Musica that sheds 103 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: some light on how he claims he kept himself, saying, quote, 104 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: I would come up with ideas for tools. I mentally 105 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: invented farm implements that would be for this or that. 106 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: I calculated them, manufactured them mentally, and so kept myself entertained. 107 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: I walked several miles a day, more than I do today, 108 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: for sure. And then the journalists asked in the hole, 109 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: because he's in like this basically a dank hole, and 110 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: he said, oh yes, three steps one way, three steps 111 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: the other, three steps one way, three steps to the other, 112 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: until my legs hurt. Like that's how he avoids losing 113 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: his mind in in this prison. It was the early 114 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties when cracks finally started to form around the dictatorship. 115 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: Some of the credit for this goes to the men 116 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: and women on the legal left, the same people who 117 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: formed the Frente Amplio. They continue to organize an agitate 118 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: in In In nineteen eighty four, people took to the streets 119 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: in mass um It protesting the dictatorship, and it was 120 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: such a significant number of people that the dictatorship like 121 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: backs down, basically realizes like, we were either are going 122 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: to start killing people in mass in the street or 123 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: we're not going to have a dictatorship anymore. And if 124 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: we kill people in mass in the street, I'm not 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: sure we'll win. And so I'm not going to gamble. 126 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: I think is kind of what happens right um and 127 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: the Liberal the kind of the dictatorship's end is negotiated 128 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: in large part by the leader of kind of the 129 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Liberal party, Julio Sanguinetti Um, who helps to negotiate an 130 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: into the dictatorship, and he gets elected president next in 131 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: a peaceful election, and one of his first decisions is 132 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: to push for an amnesty that freeze imprisoned leftist radicals 133 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: like Musica, will also providing amnesty to the military leaders 134 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: who run the dictatorship. So san Quinetti is like, we're 135 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: going to release all the two p Tomorrow's we're also 136 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: not going to imprison the military, because I think the 137 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: attitude is number one, you have to leave them. We're 138 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: trying to get them to back down without mass bloodshed 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: in the streets, so you have to leave them an 140 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: exit plan. And I also think it's his the attitude 141 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: is like, well, if we just imprison another group of people, 142 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: then maybe we'll have a cycle where a new regime 143 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: comes in it imprisons the old regime, and like that 144 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: doesn't like, I don't know how much of it is 145 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: like trying to give the military and out, and how 146 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: much of it is trying to stop a cycle of reprisals. 147 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: But that's what they decide to do. UM better than 148 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: most you know, actually getting the political prisoners free, better 149 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: than most movements, better than most like movements. And it 150 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, obviously it's controversial not prosecuting the military. 151 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: And actually they do start to prosecute and currently are 152 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: to some extent some people who like the some of 153 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: the worst people. But initially it's just like, yeah, let's 154 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: amnesty kind of for everybody involved in that whole thing. 155 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: Let's try to put it behind us. UM. Now, Sanguinetti, 156 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: who's kind of the first post dictatorship president is also 157 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: one of the people who blames the Tupamorrows for the 158 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: coming of the dictatorship, one of the Uruguayans who does 159 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: his claim for this. Like one of the things he 160 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: says in an interview I found is that like the 161 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: bullets that Musica and the other two Tomorrow's fired were 162 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: shots against democracy because they led to the dictatorship. UM 163 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: and he as Jose gets out of prison and gets 164 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: into politics, he does not like Uh Musica. UM. I 165 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: found some quotes from him in a Guardian article, and 166 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: I think at least some of his issue with the 167 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: Tupamorrows is that he's not a leftist. For one thing, 168 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: he's kind of like more maybe center left, you could say, 169 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: but he's not like, I don't think he's a far 170 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: leftist UM. And I think some of his frustration comes 171 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: from the fact that when the dictatorship ends UM and 172 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: politics starts up again, the Frente Amplio comes back, UM 173 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: and it starts siphoning votes away from the Liberal Colorado 174 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: Party San Juanetti's party. UM. I'm not gonna spend a 175 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: lot of time like digging into Uruguay and electoral politics 176 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: because I don't understand them. Well, um again, I I 177 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,719 Speaker 1: cite two scholarly papers you can read that go into 178 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: a lot of detail about Uruguay and electoral politics. I 179 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: would recommend reading that if you want to know it better. Um. 180 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: But it is interesting to me that um to kind 181 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: of look into which groups of people had issues with 182 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: the fact that Jose Musica, when he gets into politics, 183 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: was a former tup Tomorrow and which people didn't because 184 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: like Sanguinetti, this guy who to his credit helps into 185 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: the dictatorship, dislikes Musica and the Tupamorrows and blames them 186 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: for the coming of the dictatorship. You know who doesn't 187 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: blame them, and who in fact votes for Musica when 188 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: uh he wont when the presidency? Is it the products 189 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: and services that support this show. No, it's not time 190 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: for that. You remember how I read that story last 191 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: episode about like that guy who as a kid with 192 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: his like wheelchair bound sister, Jose like robbed the family 193 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: to threaten to murder his dad. Yeah, he votes for 194 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: him for president. Later he's like, yeah, we'll talk about 195 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: that a little more. But he's like, yeah, I think 196 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: he's he's probably a good candidate. I'm not angry at him, 197 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: which is gave me my typewriter back that says something 198 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: about how polite a robber you are if like later 199 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: someone votes for you to be president, and imagine that 200 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: being your backstory, like in the United States, being like, yeah, 201 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, when I was six, Joe Biden robbed my 202 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: house at gunpoint and threatened to kill my stepdad. And 203 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: Biden does all these other crimes that are far grosser, 204 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: way grosser. Yeah, I mean, Musique was at least front 205 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: and center whatever he was doing, you know. Um. So 206 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: we talked earlier about how the tup Tomorrows are characterized 207 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: by how flexible they are, how good they are at 208 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: pivoting from different things and not really staying locked into 209 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: things that one tendency or another would require of them 210 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: kind of ideologically. Um, and they do this again, they don't. 211 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: They get out of prison or at least you know, 212 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: because some of them are just like underground hiding, but 213 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: like they're able to be public again and they form 214 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: a political party and join the front Amplio again. Um 215 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: and so yeah, the old Tupermorrow start getting into electoral politics, 216 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: and the Tupamarrow who was like at the forefront of 217 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: pushing for the party to get into electoral politics is 218 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: Jose Musica. Um and I'm gonna quote from the New 219 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: Republic here. As the group readjusted to freedom, most of 220 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: its members wanted to avoid returning to guerilla warfare, though 221 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: what course to pursue instead was unclear. Right wingers still 222 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: maintained control over much of the government. Musica argued for 223 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: an entry into traditional party politics and staged public forums 224 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: known as Mattea's Confabs, held in village squares over calabash 225 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: gourds full of strong mate ti. He'd retained his childhood 226 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: egalitarian passions, but prison had made him more philosophical and 227 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: deepened his rough hewn physical allure. He rapidly developed a 228 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: following among poorer workers and in the mid nineties entered parliament. 229 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: Then in two thousand five he received an appointment as 230 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: Agriculture Minister. It was in that post that Musica won 231 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: national acclaim, speaking in almost biblical terms about how govern 232 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: policies affected the common man. For post dictatorship Uruguay, his 233 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: language was healing, a triumphant return to the country's traditional 234 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: values of humility and shared responsibility. Bugica's biggest fight as 235 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: agriculture minister was to ensure poor Uruguayans access to a sado, 236 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: the traditional dish of beef rib grilled over an open fire, 237 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: and able to afford the meat. The lower classes often 238 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: ate less expensive cuts off the neck. Neck is unacceptable, 239 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: Mujica told a reporter. When some butchers began selling more 240 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: affordable asado, people lovelingly nicknamed it a sado del pepe A. 241 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: Two thousand seven polls showed that he'd become far and 242 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: away the country's most liked government official, and he decided 243 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: to run for president. Like that is such a heartwark 244 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: just being like, wait, poor Pia, Like this is our 245 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: traditional dish that we I grew up eating, and you're 246 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: telling me people are like eating using ship meat for it. Now, 247 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: that is unfucking acceptable. Like poor people deserve to eat 248 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: well too, And I'm gonna fight for that ship. Um. 249 00:12:53,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: Obviously people loved him, Yeah, where's the catch? Well, we'll 250 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: talk about that. It's not perfect, Like, it's not perfect, um, 251 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: and we are going to I think, like primarily today 252 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about the catch and the degree to 253 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: which he would have sold out or whatever, you want 254 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to talk about it, like we're yeah, well I'm excited. 255 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have a conversation about that with you. Yeah. 256 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: So he ran for president in two thousand nine, and 257 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: he immediately made a massive impact on Uruguay's urban poor Um, 258 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: just because of the way he presented himself, not even 259 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: in terms of policy yet, because the policy pact part 260 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: is more debatable. But he has this big impact in 261 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: fact part because he dresses. He's not in a suit, 262 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: he's not dressing like a politician, he's not dressing like him. 263 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: He refuses to wear a tie. Um. He has often 264 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: seen at public events and sandals and like he would 265 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: wear dirty jumpers, like at first his like he had 266 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: they had to like kind of fight with him to 267 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: get him to wear at least like okay, you can 268 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: wear like just a shirt, but a clean one, right, 269 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: Like and he's like dragging his around. Yeah, he's got 270 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: his body with him. Um. He met poor people where 271 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: they lived, and he was particularly famous for ask asking 272 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: meaningful questions about their lives, like do you support this policy, 273 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: but like asking like very pointed material questions about what 274 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: they had access to and how they were doing. Um. 275 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: He also ranted in his public speeches against consumerist capitalism, 276 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: which he said wasted human strength on quote frivolities that 277 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: have little to do with human happiness. Jose was elected 278 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: president in two thousand nine, and on paper his term 279 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: is a left liberal wet dream. Under his presidency, Uruguay 280 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: legalized gay marriage, marijuana, and abortion, which is pretty good 281 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: for four years, right, yeah, yeah, And it's not like 282 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: a like a great I guess you could say, it's 283 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: not like the ideal abortion policies, legalizing I think up 284 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: to twelve weeks. But like from a point of this 285 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: as a Catholic country and you can't do it, that's 286 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: like a huge that's a big that's a that's a 287 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: thing like that's worth celebrating. Um. And also just like 288 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: being down with gay rights when he would talk about 289 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: that the sixties revolutionary, we will talk about that. Not guaranteed, 290 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: not a guarantee. Now these are the cliff notes of 291 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Jose's presidency, and so you can see what, like the 292 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: Guardian says, it's the most radical president in the world. Now, 293 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: when you get into the weeds a little bit, it 294 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: is less radical, well in some ways less radical, seeing 295 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: it's certainly in some ways, like it's more complicated, but 296 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: I also think it's a lot more interesting if you 297 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,119 Speaker 1: look at like his motivations for things. Let's take gay marriage, right, Um, 298 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: his support of gay rights, because a decent critical piece 299 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: on Musik and I've read a number will note rightly 300 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: that he should not be credited with bringing gay marriage 301 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: to Uruguay because activists have been working for decades to 302 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: get to that point, you know, which is always the 303 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: case when gay marriage gets legalized. Right, that's the case 304 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: with Obama too, Like I don't give him credit for it, 305 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: other than the fact that he was the guy who 306 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: decided not to fight it anymore. You know. Um, I 307 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: think gets a little more credit than I would give 308 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: Obama for this, maybe, um telling the press quote they 309 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: fit about his like gay rights, marriage rights. They those 310 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: rights fit our sense of freedom and human rights, but 311 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: they don't solve the basic problem, which is the difference 312 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: of class. And that's what will see is like, I'm 313 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: happy to legalize gay rights. I don't think this solves 314 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: the problem, which is primarily a class problem. He'll say 315 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: a lot like look the issue, like it's important for 316 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: people to have rights. I believe in people having freedom. 317 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: But also if you look at it, rich people were 318 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: always free to be gay. This is something he says 319 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: like interviews, the number rich people have always been able 320 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: to be gay and pretty much live life the way 321 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: they wanted. It's if you're if you're a gay woman, 322 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: a poor woman, um, you know, an indigenous gay person, 323 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: like if you're not part of the upper class, that's 324 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: when it becomes a problem. And so he sees gay 325 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: rights as primarily part of the class struggle is the 326 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: thing that he always emphasizes in his interviews. So it's 327 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: interesting because he's not doing fulk class reductionism. No, he's 328 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: actually tiny issues in he's actually doing better than a 329 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: huge he really is. It's radical left at the moment. 330 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because when it comes to Jose's personal views. 331 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: One Uruguayan sex health activist called him a bit chro 332 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: magnan um, and he refers to when he refers to 333 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: gay people, he calls them sexually ambivalent um, which you know, 334 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: he was born in nineteen thirty five, right, Like you 335 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: can call me sexually ambivalent, Like it's not offensive, it's 336 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: just kind of weird. And it's clear he's just like 337 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: I don't really get this, but like my default is 338 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: that people should have more freedom. So yeah, let's let's 339 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: do it, you know, Like I think that's kind of 340 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: his attitudes, Like I don't understand this at all, but 341 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: like it's a question of rights and people should always 342 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: have more rights. Um, which is fine, And it is 343 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: worth noting that the so before Musica gets elected, the 344 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: Broadfront Alexa another president. The first president the broad Front 345 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: Alex is a guy named Vasquez who is a very 346 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: left wing dude in a lot of ways, and we'll 347 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: talk about him a bit more, but he's also very 348 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: Catholic and again like liberation theology and stuff. So he 349 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: had despite being the lefty president right before Musica, he 350 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: vetoed a lot of legalized gay marriage during his term. 351 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: And so again an abortion to probably I don't I 352 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: don't know as much about that, but I don't know 353 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: if like the fight to legalist abortion was and enough 354 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: of a point during his presidency where he could I'm 355 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: not really sure, um, but I think you should say, 356 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: don't give this guy all the credit. There's a lot 357 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: of activists, but also the last guy who was on 358 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: the left vetoed this, so it's not no credit that 359 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: Musika gets. Especially I always give credit to like an 360 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: old dude who clearly doesn't understand anything about it other 361 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: than that people are being restricted from a thing. And 362 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: it's like, well that's bad, Like there's an agree to 363 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: which I just inherently respect a man who's willing to 364 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: say I'm old. I don't understand things anymore, but my 365 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: default has always give people more freedom. So that's where 366 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: I land on this. That's a really good way to 367 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: approach aging and not understanding issues, is just trying to 368 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: be like, all right, well what about like where where? 369 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: What is? Yeah? I think that's admirable. Um, you know 370 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: what else is admirable, Margaret, No, I have no idea 371 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: the products and services that support this podcast. Um, very 372 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: admirable admiration will be available from everybody. Yeah, we're back. 373 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: So Um. When it comes to how Musica talks about 374 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: legalizing gay marriage, who he talks about, like how he 375 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: deals with like when people like especially like foreign journalists 376 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: credit him with this is really interesting and I want 377 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: to read a quote from him on that subject, um 378 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: and some other things from that Guardian article quote. All 379 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: we are doing is recognizing something as old as humanity. 380 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: Music has said the best thing is that people can 381 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: live as they want to live. And that's his like 382 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: attitude to like why did you, which is I think 383 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: very admirable. He sees those twice punished by poverty and 384 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: intolerance is the real victims. Those who are sexually ambivalent 385 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: have a real problem if they are poor, if they 386 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: are rich, they are tolerated. That sounds crude, but it's 387 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: the truth as I see it, he said. And the 388 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: women most discriminated against are those in poverty. Machismo hits 389 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: hardest at the lowest level. Poor girls are not well 390 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: treated by our society. There are women who end up 391 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: abandoned with lots of children. For me, that is one 392 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: of the most important battles for fairness. Um. Yeah. And 393 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: and during his presidential campaign, he was caught complaining about 394 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: quote intellectual women who think they are down trotting, but 395 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: who talk about their companera or cleaning lady when she 396 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: is really the servant. Which I love that he makes 397 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: that distinction, whereas like, there's a lot of rich women 398 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: complaining about like how they're not treated equally, who also 399 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: have a lady who's basically their slave. Um, Like I 400 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: don't think that's cool. He's he's it's hard to argue 401 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: with the things he says. At least you know, yeah, 402 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: goes out to a restaurant. We are Yeah, we're actually 403 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: getting to that in a little bit. Um. Yeah. So 404 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: the fact that Peppe is a quasi anarchist militant president 405 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: who legalized pot might lead you to lead you to 406 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: expect that, like he's does a lot of pot, he's 407 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: never smoked marijuana. And I will believe that from a 408 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: I who legalized it. Like a lot of times it's like, Okay, 409 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: well you're probably just and he's like, no, he's fine 410 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: with it being legal, he just doesn't want to do it. Um, 411 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: he's he's heavily addicted to tobacco and he drinks a lot. 412 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: But I don't think he's he's ever smoked pot. He 413 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: says he hasn't. Um but and and his he's not 414 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: like pro weed culture. He just thinks prohibition has been 415 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: a failure. And there's also a big element of like 416 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: why he's legalizing pot is to take money away from 417 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: drug cartels because there's a major it's essentially like a 418 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: cocaine derivative problem in Uruguayan slums that his government was fighting, 419 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: and so he is not anti the drug war entirely, 420 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: and this is I think one of the areas in 421 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: which I would disagree with him, because his attitude is, 422 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: I think we should legalize the drugs that are not 423 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: harmful in his view, um to deny Cartel's money and 424 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: we should fight them selling what is basically crack um, 425 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: which like, I'm not pro crack uh, it's pretty nasty stuff, 426 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: but I don't think prohibition works there either. Again, it's 427 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: not a perfect man um, but this is I think 428 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: his attitude towards and I'm all so not an expert 429 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: in Uruguay's crack cocaine problem, so I'm not gonna pontificate 430 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: there either. Um In his attitude in general towards drug 431 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: use seems to be that, at least from a user 432 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: perspective people. One of the quotes he gave is, we 433 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: want to take users out of hiding and create a 434 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: situation where we can say you are overdoing it. You 435 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: have to deal with that. So it's a very like 436 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: Scandinavian attitude towards how drugs should be treated um, which 437 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: of like the ways Western countries deal with drug use 438 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: is the most reasonable. That kind of states tend to embrace. UM. 439 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: So whatever you can think about that the way you do. 440 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: But it's nuanced. It's not just like he's not just 441 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: pro drugs, he's he is. He does support some kinds 442 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: of drug war. UM. I think the place where Jose 443 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: Mujica is most impressive isn't the ways in which he 444 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: actually does live. Because it's one thing to say all 445 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: this stuff. He really does live in concert with his values. 446 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: For example, he speaks all the time about the plight 447 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: of poor women. Um. And as president, he made like 448 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: two d grand a year as president, and he donated 449 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: his salary to single months. Um. And he's not getting 450 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: into this as a rich guy, you know, Like he's 451 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: not like a millionaire becoming the president. Um. He took 452 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: enough to like live in the house that he'd occupied 453 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: most of his life, um, and gave all of the 454 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: rest to like single moms, um, which is dope. And 455 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: he had he has like some land and a bunch 456 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: of old people live on it and don't pay rent. 457 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: Like he's he's a pretty Like he's everything about his 458 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: life is very much in concert with the things that 459 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: he's said. I want to not like him, and yeah, 460 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: you're making it hard. It's hard not to even the 461 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: people who are very critical of him like him personally. 462 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: It's very hard not to like him personally. Despite being 463 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: tortured in prison. He seems to generally support the amnesty 464 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: for the military um, which I find really interesting. His 465 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: attitude is that because a lot of people are very 466 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 1: critical of this, and I'm not saying it's the right 467 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: or the wrong policy. Obviously, people who like had friends 468 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: murdered or tortured by the military have issues with the amnesty. 469 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: I think I would um. Jose's attitude, as someone who 470 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: was hurt as much as anybody by the military was 471 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: that the men who harmed him, we're not doing it themselves. 472 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: They were tools of a system, and that system was 473 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: his actual enemy. Um. There also seems to be beyond 474 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: his ideological justifications. I think a dimension of emotional pragmatism 475 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: to this attitude. As he told the Economist in an interview, 476 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: I do not hate. Do you know what a luxury 477 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: it is to not hate? So I think there's an 478 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: element of like, this is the only way I can 479 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: continue as I have to not hate them, like I 480 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: have to not hate them because otherwise it would destroy me. Um. 481 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: And it's it's I'm now that I am out of prison, 482 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: I have the luxury of not hating. It's the thing 483 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: that I enjoy most about freedom is I don't have 484 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: to hate anymore. Is I think kind of what he's saying, 485 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: which is pretty profound, actually, I think, um it Also, 486 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: I mean it's funny because then it's like, well, it's 487 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: the anti Carcero thing is like you you the only 488 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: defense for prison is to stop people from doing things right, 489 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: and these people are no longer part of a system 490 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: that is capable of doing these things, so they're no 491 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: longer capable of committing the harm that they did commit. 492 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: So in some ways, I don't see what would myself 493 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: speaking of the president, Yeah, you know it makes sense 494 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Um, I could 495 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: also understand other people. I don't think I would be 496 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,239 Speaker 1: as good a person as him in his situation. If 497 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: I'd been locked up and tortured for fourteen years, I 498 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: would want to be as good a person as he is. Um. 499 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: But some Catholic and thereafter all, And it's interesting because 500 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: there's a number of like there's one interview I found 501 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: with him, where he talks about how not all the 502 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: guards were terrible. A number of them would like smuggle 503 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: in food for us, or like gifts for us, or 504 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: like things to like make us more comfortably. So as 505 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: much as the torture was a part of like that 506 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: I blame like most of the crimes on the system, 507 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: that I recognized that the people in it were also humans, 508 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: and like I wouldn't want to just like paint them 509 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: all with one brush. He's very nuanced when he talks 510 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: about this stuff in a way that is impressive for 511 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: someone who suffered so much under that regime. Um, you 512 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: really get a sense of how different he is him 513 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: like a normal politician when you read articles by journalists 514 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: who actually meet with him. This passage from the Guardian 515 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: is emblematic of the whole Mujika emerged from his tiny 516 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: house dressed in a fawn fleece and gray trousers with 517 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: sandals over socked feet. The fleeces and improvement, which can 518 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: be credited to his two thousand nine campaign team, who 519 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: weaned him off tattered jumpers age, has made his features 520 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: both more pinched around the eyes and fleshier around the edges. 521 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: His thick shock of graying hair was neatly brushed, another 522 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: habit he acquired while running for President Manuela. A three 523 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: legged mutt hopped gamely along the one story house lies 524 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: half hidden by greenery. It's corrugated metal roof resting on 525 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: pillars around a narrow cement walkway full of dusty crates 526 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: and jars. Winter rain highlighted the patchy plaster work. Mind 527 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: the mud, the president warned by way of greeting. The narrow, 528 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: elongated front room contains a cheap office chair and desk, bookshelves, 529 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: a small table with two uncomfortable wood backed chairs, a 530 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: roaring log stove, and an ancient, immaculately restored Pugh Joe bicycle. 531 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: I've that bicycle for sixty years, he said, proudly, recalling 532 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: his days as an amateur racer. My my God, Musica 533 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: could live in the Presidential Palace, a hundred year old 534 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: mansion in the old money Prado district, but he would 535 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: rather be here. We think of it as a way 536 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: of fighting for our personal freedom, he said. If you 537 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: complicate your life too much in the material sense, a 538 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: big part of your time goes to tending that. That's 539 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: why we still live today. As we did forty years 540 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: ago in the same neighborhood, with the same people, in 541 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: the same things. You don't stop being a common man 542 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: just because you were a president. I think he might 543 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: be incorrect about that ability to exert power. He's too nice, 544 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: but yeah, but I appreciate the like, yeah, well, and 545 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: one of the one of the criticisms we're getting to, 546 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: like the critiques of him by the left, but one 547 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: is that is he's bad at using power. He's too 548 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: much of And that's part like he makes a lot 549 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: of compromises with the neoliberals and with like the conservatives, 550 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: especially in economic stuff, because he's not very authoritarian, Like 551 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: he's not good at that. Like, that's one of the 552 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: really trenchant criticisms of his time as president is he's 553 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: like actually bad at forcing his way into things. He's 554 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: too much of, like a little too much of an 555 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: anarchist um. When foreign journalists interview Pepe about his past 556 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: is a freedom fighter, he refuses to apologize for the 557 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: violence that he took part in Musiki, even expresses scorn 558 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: for what he calls beatific pacifism and added, the only 559 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: things I regret are those I could have done but 560 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: didn't just incredible flex. I wish I'd robbed I wish 561 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: I'd robbed another couple of banks. You know, it's not 562 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: too late. It's not too late, and no one's going 563 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: to stop you at this point. In part one, I 564 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: told you the story of two kids Musika held up 565 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: at gunpoint when he was threatening to murder their dad. 566 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: And again the young kid he held up Many's told 567 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: The Guardian that he voted for Musika, saying I might 568 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: be expected to feel better about him, but he's the 569 00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: only one who practices what he preaches. Yea, just like, yeah, 570 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: he robbed me at gunpoint and trying to kill my stepdad, 571 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 1: but he's an honest man. I mean, it's it is. 572 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: It's adust to just actually exert that power as copared 573 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: to like hiding behind this or that institution. Yeah, he 574 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: never like had goons do ship for him. He was 575 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: out there. Now, given that Jose Mujika has not in 576 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: fact destroyed the state or the system he railed against 577 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: as a young man, you will not be surprised to 578 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: hear that his largest detractors and the most trenchant criticism 579 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: against him comes from the left and the leftist to 580 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: critique him have a lot of very fair points. I 581 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: found a New Republic article by a journalist who traveled 582 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: to Uruguay and talked with left wing organizers, political leaders, 583 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: journalists and came up with a very critical article. He 584 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: was kind of in response to the Guardians saying the 585 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: most radical presidency, this New Republic journist is like, well, 586 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: let's go see how radical it really is. Um, And 587 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: the radicals in Uruguay says, not at all. Um. They 588 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: all kind of seemed to agree that he's a very 589 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 1: nice man. Nobody seems to believe that he's like lying 590 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and like hiding his life as a rich person. Um. 591 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: But that that didn't make him an effective president. Um. 592 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: They point out that most of the things that he 593 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: was elected to do did not happen. He pushed for 594 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: a massive educational expansion that would include a flood of 595 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: new technical universities for poor kids, but actually making that 596 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: happen meant ramming laws through the still very splintered and 597 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: gridlocked Congress, and Musica, as a political outsider and is 598 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: not good at being authoritarian, was unable to do that. Um. 599 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: He did succeed in getting laptops for like Uruguayan school 600 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: children UM, which is like one of the big things 601 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: that his administration would brag about. But tests scores, I 602 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: think mostly still continued declining during this period. The issues 603 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: that Uruguayan public school system had had had didn't. He 604 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: didn't fix the problem UM, even though that was like 605 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: the main thing he harped on in his campaign and 606 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from the New Republic here. The story 607 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: was the same on other policy fronts. Musico wanted Uruguay's 608 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: public railway utility to operate under private sector rules to 609 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: boost efficiency. Nothing happened. He tried to pass a new 610 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: tax on the big landowners to help the poor, but 611 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: failed to ensure that the legislation would be constitutional. The 612 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: Uruguayan Supreme Court struck it down. If he had taken 613 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: the opportunity to consult more specialists in law, he wouldn't 614 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: have failed, said gar Say, the political scientist. But Mujika 615 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: isn't too worried about the legal aspects of things. One morning, 616 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: over coffee, I spoke to a former Rugika's staffer named 617 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: Conrado Ramos, a budget wonk who looks like a sad 618 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: Hue Grant. He had been in charge of an effort 619 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: to reform the Uruguayan public sector. Mujika said he would 620 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: make it a priority. Ramos recalled, but that was part 621 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: of the problem. Mujica's pan enthusiasm placed everything and consequently nothing, 622 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: at the top of his agenda. From time to time, 623 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: Pepe would wheel unannounced into Ramos's office and get excited, 624 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: unfurling beautiful language about the big changes needed, but he 625 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to plan. Mujika appointed as Ramos's boss, 626 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: the disinterested son of a former top Tomorrow and appeared 627 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: to forget the issue. After several fruitless years, Ramos quit 628 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: in frustration, embarrassing the administration. And again it's like, I 629 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: think it's a mix of he's probably a little a 630 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,719 Speaker 1: d h D and maybe little too much of an 631 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: anarchist to be good at making things work in a system. Well, 632 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: it's like it's in its way, it's almost brilliant critique 633 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: of state and state power, because finally everyone's like, well, 634 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: if you had the right person in charge, and so 635 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: you finally have the right It doesn't get writer as 636 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: presidents go, it doesn't get writer. And he can't do anything. 637 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: I mean, he could do. He does things not being 638 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: but by not being the right person anymore would be 639 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: the ways that he would. So it's like this kind 640 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: of interesting, this is what you all claim we need 641 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: to do is get the no and the systems writing guy. Anyway. Yeah, 642 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: it's the it's the like everybody loves like. I think 643 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: one of the things that endears a lot of people 644 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: to Bernie Sanders. You see a picture of him in 645 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: his house and he's got like the chair with crap 646 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: stacked on it, which you never see a politician have, 647 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, he's a human being. He's at 648 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: least a person, and maybe if a person was president 649 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: things would be better, and some things are I think 650 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: the I think the left and especially this New Republic 651 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: article goes too hard against him. For one thing. It's 652 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: interesting I've talked a lot about what the kind of 653 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: liberal and centrist sources leave out when they're reporting on 654 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,239 Speaker 1: this The New Republic, as they're critiquing him, and we're 655 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: going to read more critiques, doesn't note that like unemployment 656 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: dropped by half under him, um, and maybe that's maybe 657 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: they're being fair that like, well that was there was 658 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: it was an economic boom. You know, he doesn't get 659 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: credit for like, like everything there's every time there's good 660 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: stuff that happens, it's like, well, but he shouldn't get 661 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: credit for that or this, But it's like, well, I 662 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: think you're going a little far here, but still there. 663 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: They have other trenchant critiques that I'm going to continue 664 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: to read. So the progressives and leftists interviewed by The 665 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: New Republic have two main arguments. Musica accomplished a few 666 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: of his actual policy goals, and while he both lived 667 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: very consistently to his values and he said wonderful things 668 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: about anti consumerism the horrors of capitalism, he didn't stop 669 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: them and he didn't try to stop them. In particular, 670 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: the article quotes a journalist Mauricio R. Buffetti. I agree 671 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: with absolutely everything Musica has to say about materialism. He 672 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: told me. I believe inequality and consumerism are damaging to society. 673 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: It was exciting and fascinating to me then that this 674 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: man became our president. But he has done nothing. He 675 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: later added, he's always saying he's a fighter. He's a fighter, 676 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: so his failure is something that's very hard to understand 677 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: and hard to forgive. And nickul cheek him by pointing out, 678 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: like how much, how many more designers stores there are 679 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: in monte Video, how much the fact that inequality has grown, 680 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: the fact that people are increasingly obsessed with like Western 681 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: like consumerist things, electronics and all this stuff, And like 682 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: he didn't stop that, And it's like, yeah, he didn't. 683 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: How could he? Yeah, Like like that is because it 684 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: is like, yes, it is fair to say it's frustrating 685 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: that this guy maybe didn't destroy the system when he 686 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: talked about how the system clearly didn't need to keep existing. 687 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: But also like what was he supposed to do? And 688 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: this is I think one of the things if you're 689 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 1: going to be really fair, you have to note he 690 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: was elected president at age seventy four, after fourteen years 691 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: in prison and getting shot six times. And I kind 692 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: of think part of his editor is like, Yeah, there's 693 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of shut fucked up ship that I'm not 694 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: going to be able to fix or do anything about, 695 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: and I will talk about it as if it's bad, 696 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: and then I will engage with the system because I 697 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: am too old to be a gorilla and I'm going 698 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: to try to help people. Um, And you can feel 699 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: about that the way you want. You know, it's a compromise. 700 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: For sure, and and it's a compromise made by a 701 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: man who did uncompromising things for a very long time. 702 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: And uh yeah, and I'm like, like I said, not 703 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: in a good place to play any judgment on decisions. 704 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: I think we can analyze it while saying like I 705 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: would be willing to bet that virtually no one could 706 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: go through what he did and not have his outcome 707 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: be the best case scenario like that. That's kind of 708 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: where I land on this and for where what it's worth. 709 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: Musique addresses the fact that like, yeah, he didn't destroy 710 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: how he didn't stop consumers, and he talks about that 711 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: a lot. He talks about the the he like very 712 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: openly in interviews, will address kind of the inconsistencies with 713 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: his beliefs and what he's doing as president. And I'm 714 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: gonna quote from that Guardian article again quote the man 715 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: who inspired by Guavara once blew up actoris owned by foreigners, 716 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: now offers them tax breaks. I need capitalism to work 717 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: because I have to levy taxes to attend to the 718 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: serious problems we have trying to overcome. At all too 719 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: abruptly condemns the people you are fighting to suffering, so 720 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: that instead of more bread, you have less bread. And 721 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: he's like he he talks about like you know, because 722 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: he's like he's been in a bunch of photos with 723 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: Hugo Chavas and stuff, and he's like, but also, Venezuela 724 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: system doesn't work very well. Um, And I don't think 725 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: the U S system works very well either. I'm just 726 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: trying to like, I'm not I was not elected to 727 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: overthrow the government and destroy the system as it exists 728 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: and build a new one. And I'm too old and 729 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: tired to do it. So I'm just trying to help 730 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: people have more bread because I feel like that's all 731 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: I can do. Um. Not all the Tupamorrows have accompanied 732 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: Musica on his journey to soft pragmatic socialism. They left 733 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: their ideals in their prison cells. The former hostage, George 734 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: Zabalza proclaimed recently, some old compagniros won't understand Musica. Said 735 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: they don't see our battle against people's everyday problems. That 736 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: life is not a utah be a and that's interesting. 737 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: So there are former two p Tomorrows who are like, 738 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: you're you fucking you, you sold out, you know, like 739 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: we were supposed to overthrow the state and you became 740 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: part of it, and you are willingly working with the capitalists, 741 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: working with the conservatives, and like that was never the plan. 742 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: And Euxica's response is, and that's that is a fair criticism. 743 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: That is what happened, right, You can morally land wherever 744 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: you want on that. That is objectively what happened. Um 745 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: and musicas I guess, moral defense is like, yeah, that's true, 746 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: and I get why you you're angry, but I can 747 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: I think I can help people, and we're not living 748 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: in a utopian situation. So I'm going to I'm gonna 749 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: applow the ship, you know. I think that's kind of 750 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: his attitude. And again, there's a number of ways to 751 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: feel about that. I'm not going to tell you how 752 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: to feel about that. I don't know how. I entirely 753 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: feel like it's a complicated issue. But he's not he's 754 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: not denying the inconsistencies. He's not pretending that he's the same. Um. 755 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: He is acknowledging like, yeah, I kind of sold out 756 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: because I thought I could do these good things, and 757 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: I do you have to respect that to some extent, 758 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a I 759 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: can see it. It's like it's one of those things 760 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: where it's like, I don't, I don't imagine that's like 761 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: what I would hope for someone, right, yea, but I 762 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: I can see it, and it's a lot more interesting 763 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: to me than the people who sell out by just 764 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: entirely abandoning their values. Yeah, like the Christian cinema where 765 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: you're like ending in black block at the w t 766 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: O protests in two thousand eight and then voting for 767 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: austerity with Joe Manchin. Yeah, yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't 768 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: do that, um perfect. And you know who else doesn't 769 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: vote with Joe Manchin? Ah? Oh gosh, some of the 770 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: products and services that I was going to say, can't 771 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: you really bear some of the products and services supporting 772 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: our podcast? Do not vote alongside Joe Mansion. And that's 773 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: about as good as you're gonna get. Guys, Look, come on, 774 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: the real person. I thought Joe Mansion was like Joe 775 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: the plumber, Joe who lives in the mansion. He took 776 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: Joe Manchin very It is funny that like one of 777 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: the men repeatedly holding back any attempts to address inequality 778 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: in the United States is you could you could call 779 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: him Joe Mansion. That is kind of funny. I didn't 780 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: think about that. Um, all right, Oh, we're back, so 781 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 1: continuing because we have actually a bit more kind of 782 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: grinding through the different sides of how to look at 783 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 1: this man to get through because I think he's fascinating 784 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: and I think what he represents is fascinating, and I 785 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: think it's incredibly important for leftists, especially leftists who like 786 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: dream of some sort of revolution, to engage with the 787 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: Tupamorrows and musica and the journey that they went on. Um. 788 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: I think that's there's tremendous. It's tremendously important to at 789 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: least try to understand it and come to your own 790 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: conclusions about it because it's not a common situation and 791 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: I think very worth studying as a result of that. Um, 792 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote read another quote from a little bit 793 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: later in that same article. Globalizations glaring failure Music has 794 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: said is a lack of political oversight. It is bad 795 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: because it is only governed by the market. It has 796 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,439 Speaker 1: no politics or government. National governments are only worried about 797 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: their next next elections. But there are a series of 798 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: global problems that no one deals with that does not 799 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: mean capitalism has won outright. I don't think it inevitable 800 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: that the world should live in capitalism. He told me. 801 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: That is the same as not believing in man. And 802 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: man is an animal with many defects, but also with 803 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: many startling capabilities. Is interesting guy. Um yeah, Uh. That 804 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: New Republic article critical Musica saves its most most trenchant 805 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: criticism of the man for a passage in which it 806 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: lays out the achievements of his predecessor, Vasquez, who also 807 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: followed musicas you can't do subs. You can't do one 808 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: term after the other. As president Vasquez is the president 809 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: before Musica and the president after. I'm going to read 810 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: a quote about him. And I think the New Republic, 811 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, the Catholic leftist, Yeah, the Catholic leftist, 812 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. Generally, I'm not super up on the 813 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: New Republic. I think they're a little bit more state 814 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: socialist kind of authority driven, uh than I am. My impression. Yeah, 815 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: but I'm not trying to Yeah, you get that in 816 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: this quote because there they are critiquing and for the 817 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: things that we've laid out. Um, and some you can 818 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: read that. It's a good article. You should read it. 819 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't agree with everything in it, but it's a 820 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: good article. Um And they contrast his failure to overcome 821 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 1: a lot of gridlock with this guy Vasquez quote. In fact, 822 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: there is a politician in Uruguay who accomplished some of 823 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: the same kinds of goals people hoped Musica could tackle. 824 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: His name is Tabare Vsquez, an oncologist. He proceeded Musika 825 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: as president and will succeed him again come March. In 826 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: two thousand five, he inaugurated the first left wing government 827 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: since the country's dictatorship, and took great strides towards restoring 828 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: the Uruguayan social safety net, rebooting Baze's national health care system, 829 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: expanding welfare, and making Uruguay the first nation in the 830 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: world to fully implement the one Laptop per Child program. 831 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: He managed these successes thanks to a political persona as 832 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,280 Speaker 1: authoritarian and charmless as Musikas were, gaily, anarchic and alluring. 833 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: With a ruff of silver hair, bassett hound eyes and 834 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: a smile just on the wrong side of lascivious, Vesquez 835 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: exudes the unsettling aura of a Mr. Rogers impersonator who 836 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 1: performs in porn. He rarely consults others on political decisions 837 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 1: and projects arrogance in his certitude. Faced with the same 838 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: constraints all modern presidents face with their power, he just 839 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: goes around them. When Vasquez decided to ban smoking in 840 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: public buildings, something that was really important for him as 841 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: an oncologist, Rabuffetti, the journalist, said he didn't involve Congress 842 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: at first. Instead, he used Uruguay's version of an executive order. 843 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: The unilateral move prompted a flurry of outrage about personal liberties, 844 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: and the Uruguay and legislature could have subsequently overturned it, 845 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: but ultimately the policy established a new status quo that 846 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: its opponents decided they didn't want to waste time in 847 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: political capital to fight again. It's um, you know, I 848 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: think there's that. That's that's that's again not you can 849 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: think about that whatever you want. I think it's probably 850 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: factually a broadly accurate statement, and I get why, I 851 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: get why that is a criticism, and it's probably it's 852 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: worth saying that, like, yes, an authoritarian as president will 853 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: get more done than a guy who's kind of more 854 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: egalitarian and consensus driven, you know, obviously, and there's good 855 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: things about that and bad things about that in part 856 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: because like I you know, maybe this guy Esquez the 857 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: executive order use and stuff, that's that's a precedent that 858 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: could be bad when the Conservatives get back into power, 859 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: and they got back into power in so like, you know, 860 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: it's never none of this is I I simple, you know. Um. 861 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that, like this article doesn't note 862 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: that Vesquez veto to gay marriage bill um, and that 863 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: that was something that happened because Pepe wasn't. Yeah, he 864 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: believes that he should be able to do what he wants. Yeah, 865 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: and like you know, it's like I don't want my 866 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: government to dumb me, you know, Like, but it's all 867 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: I think maybe if you want to engage with it 868 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: even a little more nuanced. And again this is just 869 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: something that maybe this is partially the case that like, 870 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: if you're trying to change society, maybe it helps to 871 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: have people who are broadly politically aligned and have an 872 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: authoritarian and then a guy who's not authoritarian and kind 873 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: of like so that you're not trending too hard in 874 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: that direction and you can then like Pepe is better 875 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: at building social consense. I don't know, maybe that's accurate. 876 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: Maybe that's not. Um, it strikes me there's a benefit 877 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: from Vasquez going to Pepe afterwards, like certainly within the 878 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: matter of gay rights and some other issues. Um, because 879 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: it's more different ratcheting system. Yeah, in the US we 880 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: have a right word racheting system where they're against push 881 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: things that Wright and the Democrats and ship and then 882 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: and then I could I could see. Yeah, I don't know. 883 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone does know, but I think like 884 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: that's something to maybe consider. It doesn't it doesn't seem 885 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: to be worse than the way things have been going 886 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: in the United States. Like if I'm comparing it to 887 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: my government, this sounds all right, you know, by comparison 888 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: this this like method of things is like, well that 889 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,240 Speaker 1: that's okay. You know, I wouldn't I would have probably 890 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: I would definitely have more critiques where I living in Montevideo. Um, 891 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: but that's always the case. Uh yeah. Um. And I 892 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,800 Speaker 1: will note that, like, in fairness to the author of 893 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 1: that New Republic piece, in addition to being coming down 894 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: very much on the sort of critical of Peppe Vasquez, 895 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: is it was a better president. He also does some 896 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,720 Speaker 1: work in this article that I don't think a lesser 897 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: journalist would have done in his position, um, because he 898 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: actually went and spent a lot of time in like 899 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: crippling lye poor neighborhoods in Uruguay after talking to these 900 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: like leftist and again the guys that we've been quoting 901 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: from so far, these journalists and these like I think 902 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,760 Speaker 1: they're mostly like middle class kind of and and upper 903 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: like leftist sort of thought leaders. And he also spends 904 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: time among the very poor. And what they tell this 905 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: guy is very different from what kind of the activists 906 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: he talked you told him quote. Of course he understands 907 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: us better, Almron said, blinking perplexedly, as if my question 908 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: itself whether Musika had been good for the poor was 909 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: not even worth asking. She'd received me in a dark 910 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: but startlingly pretty anti room and the shack she'd built, 911 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: its floorboards mere planks, over the slums off liquid earth. Eagerly, 912 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: she showed me painting she'd done on the shacks walls, 913 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: stylized fairy images reminiscent of tinker Bell, and the new 914 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,320 Speaker 1: wardrobe and table in her bedroom, the wardrobe she'd recently 915 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 1: been given through a work for Housing program sponsored by 916 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: Musica's government, the table she'd subsequently made on her own. 917 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: She gave Musika credit for both interventions. Living in elective 918 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: poverty himself, he appreciates the importance of something seemingly as 919 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,399 Speaker 1: simple as a clean place to keep one clothes. Once 920 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: Smusika had come to visit the neighborhood and seen Almron shack, 921 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: he asked. He'd asked her a question that had stuck 922 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: with her ever since, affecting how she thought of herself 923 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: and her five boys and girls. Does every child of 924 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: yours have a mattress of his own? Al Maron had 925 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: never considered this. She works at a slaughter house and 926 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: has barely enough to get by, But she explained, Musika 927 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: thinks every kid has the right to privacy with his 928 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: own fantasies. She had started saving for those beds. The 929 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,839 Speaker 1: policymakers and opinion setters I'd spoken to had been so 930 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: spittingly certain that Mujika's presidency had failed Uruguay's poor, and 931 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: four teachers I spoke with who work with them directly 932 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: believe the opposite. I spent a couple of days touring 933 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: lower income schools and neighborhoods, and the view of Musika, 934 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: I encountered was as different as the view of a 935 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: city from the street level versus looking down from atop 936 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: of skyscraper. Everyone without exception believed Musika had improved their lives. 937 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: Seeing a man who looked like them and lived like them, 938 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: who even invited them to barbecues at his commune, supying 939 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: the land's highest office, had made them feel human again 940 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: by noticing them, by speaking to them rather than about them. 941 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 1: Mujika had reincarnated them. We are a poor people, Almran 942 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: told me, with a note of defiance, But we are 943 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: people at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 944 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: So I'm pretty pro this guy. Yeah, no, I mean 945 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting because, yeah, most of the critiques coming from 946 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: the left are, oh, you're not good enough, that use 947 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: wielding institutional power, and his whole thing is seems to 948 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: be a little bit like that's not the thing he's 949 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish is wielding institutional power. That's It's fucking interesting. 950 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: It's very interesting, and I really recommend some of the 951 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: studies and articles that i've I've attached to this, Like 952 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:53,279 Speaker 1: he's a fascinating person and like what his journey says 953 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: about yeah, everything about like radical politics is I think 954 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: really important to understand. And um, I also should note, uh, 955 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: he took a bunch of people from Guantanamo Bay, um 956 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: and like like welcomed them into Uruguay so that they 957 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to be in Guantanamo anymore because they were 958 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,760 Speaker 1: people who like didn't have a state that was willing 959 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: to take them. Um. And then he went on a 960 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 1: long rant about US torture and how like these people 961 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: have like you destroyed these people for nothing, and like 962 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: this is fucked up and wasn't just like talking about 963 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 1: how bad Guantana was. Was like, yeah, of course my 964 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: country will take some of these people, bring them here. 965 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,799 Speaker 1: I killed Dan the Strangler. Of course I killed Dan 966 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: the Strangler. Of course I'm going to take prisoners from Guantanamo. 967 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: Do you know me? Again? I and I hope nothing 968 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,719 Speaker 1: we've come across in talking about the criticism of him 969 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: is dismissive. Of those criticisms, I don't agree with all 970 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: of them, and I think the thing that is most 971 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: admirable about him is that number when he never pretends 972 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,239 Speaker 1: to be perfect or entirely ideologically consistent. And neither were 973 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: the two Tomorrows, you know. Um, But he's like he 974 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: is pretty ideologically consistent. Like he's not just going to 975 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: talk about the plight of single mothers. He's going to 976 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,279 Speaker 1: give them all of his money. He's not just going 977 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: to talk about how Guantanamo is bad. He's going to 978 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: make his country take people from Guantanamo and and and 979 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: re home them. Um he's he's, uh, he's pretty good 980 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: at that kind of ship. Um. Yeah, he follows his 981 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: ethical guidelines of ideological guidelines, and that's kind of interesting 982 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, And I've read some quotes about the 983 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 1: Tupamrrows now because like especially in twenty like a more 984 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: conservative government was elected, there's a lot of like uncertainty 985 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: about what's going to happen to the education system. Like 986 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,799 Speaker 1: I'm not getting into that as much as like I've 987 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: just got up to speed on like the broad strokes 988 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: of Uruguay and political history. I don't want to like 989 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: pretend to be any kind of an expert, but um, 990 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,359 Speaker 1: I've read some quotes about the Tupamrrows where it's like, yes, 991 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: they're in politics now, they also still have guns, and 992 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: they're like like they're they're flexible, like they're ready to go. 993 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: But if they have to they'll go back and like 994 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: do the thing that they were doing. Like you know, 995 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,360 Speaker 1: they they're not they're they're they're never like we're add 996 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: percent for electoralism, like when they were terrorists there now 997 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 1: they weren't a hundred percent for terrorism. Like they're real 998 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: good at kind of flowing in making ethical exceptions and stuff, 999 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: which I think makes them very interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1000 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: I had no idea what to expect with any of this, 1001 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: So this is Yeah, I think it's broadly Again, Uruguay 1002 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 1: still has plenty of problems. This is an ongoing story. Um, 1003 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: but I think the sweep why this is a Christmas 1004 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,840 Speaker 1: non Bastards episode is the sweep of this history is 1005 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: um a pretty inspiring may not be exactly the right word, 1006 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 1: but like hopeful, yeah, because it's it's actually slow work 1007 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: to change society, and people think it's slow work, like 1008 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: sees power and then excuse the fact they've taken power. 1009 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: Of course it takes forever we have to hold on 1010 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: the power. But instead the like slow work of like 1011 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,839 Speaker 1: just trying to be good in all of the situations 1012 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: that you put yourself into and realizing that what it 1013 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 1: means to be good by your own standards might change 1014 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: depending on Sometimes it means there's you know, sometimes it 1015 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: means robbing people some yes. Sometimes it may mean assassinating 1016 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: a CIA torture. Sometimes it may mean giving documents you 1017 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: stole to a prosecutor who you trust agrees with you 1018 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: on that single issue at least, um, you know, like 1019 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 1: that's what they did. Yeah, and it's it's a it's 1020 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 1: complicated again, like you should feel about this however you 1021 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: feel about this, but maybe think about it because it's 1022 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,800 Speaker 1: it's there's some stuff in here that's worth thinking about, 1023 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,440 Speaker 1: Like I think for the left trying to find its 1024 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,279 Speaker 1: way at this present point in time where things are 1025 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: very scattered and fragmented in ugly sharp ways, and um, 1026 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,279 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ideological in fighting at a time 1027 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: when we're all kind of staring extermination and the face, 1028 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: these are probably some people to look at and be like, well, 1029 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: maybe we should learn some stuff from them, right, Not 1030 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,319 Speaker 1: not that you should ever just say, whole hog, these 1031 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 1: guys were perfect and we'll do exactly what they did, 1032 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,319 Speaker 1: but like, let's let's maybe learn some lessons here, because 1033 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: I think there are some lessons here, right, Yeah, Well, 1034 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: one of the lessons is, no one ever knows whether 1035 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,000 Speaker 1: or not violent revolution is going to make things better 1036 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,359 Speaker 1: or worse. It seems, including including both mass huge uprisings 1037 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: and like target assassinations is a total craft, complete fucking 1038 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: roll of the dice. Um, And anyone who pretends otherwise 1039 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: is probably dangerously unhinged. Yeah. Yeah, Like anyone who pretends 1040 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: this will obviously happen if we do this is a 1041 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: lunatic and you should be scared of them. Um, you know, um, 1042 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. Cool dude. I think who 1043 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,080 Speaker 1: said he as? As an individual person, he's like my 1044 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,839 Speaker 1: favorite of our people since probably Wallenberg, because he's just 1045 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: he's very He's very caring to all of the people 1046 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:10,440 Speaker 1: around him, and I think that's good. He's a nice man. Yeah. Um, 1047 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,360 Speaker 1: And my god, do I love the idea of a 1048 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: president who bicycles to work wearing socks and sandals. And 1049 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,800 Speaker 1: it's like, and I want to be around authentic people 1050 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: more than a specifically want to be around people who 1051 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,600 Speaker 1: agree with everything that I'm because then you can actually 1052 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: model your decisions based on well, I expect this person 1053 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,719 Speaker 1: to be morally consistent to their own values, not to 1054 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,160 Speaker 1: my values, but their values. Yeah, you know, like yeah, no, 1055 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:43,040 Speaker 1: that's yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, well that's that's behind 1056 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:48,280 Speaker 1: the bastards. Um, having merry Christmas, have a happy New Year. Um, 1057 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: have a uh dancing tet. I don't I don't know 1058 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 1: enough about tet, but have a good one of that too. 1059 00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,160 Speaker 1: If if you're in Vietnam, you know, have have a 1060 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: good whatever holiday is your next holiday that you're looking 1061 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 1: forward to enjoy it? Um? Yep, no, wait, ship, I 1062 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,759 Speaker 1: forgot to ask you to plug your plugables market you 1063 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 1: got any pluggables to plug? Yeah. You can find me 1064 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,120 Speaker 1: on the internet on Twitter at Magpie kill Joy. I'm 1065 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Margaret Killjoy. And I have a new book. 1066 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,959 Speaker 1: It's actually an old book rereleased called A Country Ghost 1067 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: that just came out that answers the question of well, 1068 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 1: it presents one of the many, many different answers to 1069 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,840 Speaker 1: the question of what could a society without authority look like? 1070 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: And how could it function? And um, but more than 1071 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: that's actually just a story about going to go fight 1072 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:46,439 Speaker 1: people and fun plot things in an adventure. Excellent. Yeah, 1073 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: and it it is great and also a good companion 1074 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 1: to this piece. Um, because this is I mean, this 1075 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: actually happened, but it is kind of one way of 1076 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 1: imagining what happens when anarchists get some of their way, uh, 1077 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: little bits of it, pieces of it. Um, I don't 1078 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: know door, I'll just rang. Oh okay, well you go 1079 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: do that and everybody else go home. You're drunk, my 1080 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: h