1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: view Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we spent 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: two episodes talking about the Royal Philanthropic Vaccine Expedition, not 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: the Royal Phillermonic Vaccine EXTPEDITIONE, which is how my brain 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: kept wanting to read it. Yes, and as as we 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: discussed in the studio, but hopefully none of it made 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: in its way into the actual recording. UM. Large number 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: of times while typing the episode into a script, I 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: typed the words smallpox when I meant cow pox, and 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: those are not the same thing at all, No, but 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: it is. It's so tricky when you're working on something 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: like this where you have the similar words, where it's 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: just like you gotta be constantly focused on it or 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: you will miss one. It's almost impossible not to. Yeah. Um. 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: One of the things that I didn't really get into 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: in the show is that there are a lot of 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: like pretty brief treatments, you know, short articles of this 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: whole expedition that exists around and a lot of them 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: take this very heroic approach like this was Spain's heroic effort, 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: which I mean, and there are definitely elements of it 22 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: that you could describe as heroic, um, but they don't 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: really touch on the fact that Bombas really seems to 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: have been kind of a jerk and a lot of contexts. 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: And I when I was working on the part about 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: there getting to Puerto Rico and the vaccine is already 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: there and he got so mad about it and had 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: this sort of campaign against the existing vaccine program, I 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: kind of imagine him just kept stomping his feet and 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: being like, but I wanted to do it, Like right. 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: He comes off to me as such a cudgel of 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: a man. Right, And you see why he have been 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: chosen to do this, because he clearly was a person 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: with a bias for action, and that had led to 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: his success and recognition of his abilities. But that also 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: meant that he was not well suited for the sensitivity 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: that they had been encouraged to exhibit when they were 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of these communities. He kind of 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: needed like a partner in the mix who would have 40 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: been good at the human relations part while he was 41 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: good at the administrative part. Yeah. Yeah, Um. One of 42 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: the things that that it reminded me of like number one. 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: As I was working on it, I was like, wow, 44 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: this is such a logistical tangle to try to get 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: this fragile vaccine to all of these different places. Um. 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: And you know, if you were just sending some vaccine, 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: you were shipping it in the mail, and it arrived 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: and didn't work, you could ask again. But if you 49 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: were trying to send an expedition of people whose entire 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: purpose was to create this massive vaccine program more than 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: a continent, uh, and they got there in their vaccine 52 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: did not work, then I would be ruined right Like. 53 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: It was a huge logistical thing, And I kept thinking like, man, 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: this is like it it's beyond the idea that we're 55 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: gonna need to send COVID vaccine with help from dipping dots, 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: which was like a a news article from slightly earlier 57 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: in the current pandemic that we are all dealing with. 58 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: So I kept thinking about, like the parallels between just 59 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: the logistical hurdles that are happening with the current vaccine 60 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: presently and the logistical hurdles that existed in introducing the 61 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: smallpox vaccine to the world, and the other parallel that 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: I saw was like the the same sort of attitude 63 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: about people who were having hesitancy about vaccines and people 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: taking this approach that's like, well, if you're scared, you 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: are clearly ignorant, and I'm just gonna talk to you 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: like you're an ignorant, stupid person and be really in 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: so thing, and I'm just gonna say that does not work. 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: You are not going to convince a scared person to 69 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: get a vaccine or to vaccinate their children by yelling 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: at them and calling them names. Right, we know psychologically 71 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 1: that is the worst way to convince somebody of something, 72 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: So don't don't do that. Why we have talked about 73 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: the podcast Saw Bones on the show before hosted by 74 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: Sydney McElroy who is a doctor and her husband Justin McElroy, 75 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: who is not a doctor um and they did an 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: episode about how to talk to people about vaccine hesitancy 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 1: really recently, and one of the things they talked about 78 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: was basically, you're not You're not going to change people's 79 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: minds by yelling at them. A lot of a lot 80 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: of the hesitancy is coming from fear, and some of 81 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the fears like there is some element of justification to 82 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: being scared about a thing that's gonna, you know, affect 83 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: your life well. And like the combination of fear and 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: then shame is deadly. It will shut somebody down completely. 85 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's not cool. So yeah, Um, the COVID 86 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: vaccine is definitely far safer than vaccinating somebody with an 87 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: arm to arms smallpox chain carry across the ocean. I know, 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: I am eagerly awaiting the day they get to general 89 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: population COVID vaccine availability here in Massachusetts, and I will 90 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: be lining up to that say into my arm, I 91 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: am ready. Can I just tell you might decide that 92 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm a monster in any way you didn't already know. 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: None of this grosses me out at all. Yeah, like 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: the whole Like we're gonna lance a boil from a 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: cow and put it in you. That does not gross 96 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: me out at all. For some reason, I have weird sensitivities. 97 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: I mean, as everybody does. I'm not a unique, you know, 98 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: snowflake in this regard. Um, everyone has those weird pockets 99 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: that they will get grossed out by. But like, I 100 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: don't know, for some reason, this is just not one 101 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: for me. I'm like, yeah, I get it. I totally 102 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: understand it. That's not that gross, right, Yeah, I didn't. 103 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: I didn't really feel grossed out by it while working 104 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: on it or talking about it. Um, there have for sure, 105 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: but things we've talked about on the show before where 106 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: I was like, that's the grossest thing I've ever heard 107 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: in my life. But the only thing that did gross 108 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: me out while working on this episode was I pulled 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: up something at one point that just had a bunch 110 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: of very high resolution pictures of cowpox stores, and I 111 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: was like, I didn't need to see that. It's not 112 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: so great. Yeah, reading and talking about it not as 113 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: big of a deal. I'm I'm more grossed out by 114 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: the treatment of some people in this episode. Yeah, Um, 115 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: the enslavement of children and the forced inoculation of enslaved 116 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: people and all of that is a little more gross 117 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: to me than the idea of PUS apparently. Yeah. Well, 118 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: and it's it's there was just a lot. Uh. We 119 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: we only mentioned that it was not it was kind 120 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: of outside the scope of this episode. But um, the 121 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: whole idea that Thomas Jefferson was like, I'm going to 122 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: use this vaccine as a diplomatic tool when working with 123 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: indigenous communities who had been devastated by the illness that 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: we introduced. It's yeah, and then um, I mean there's 125 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: been some historical debate about whether whether smallpox really was 126 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: used as a bioweapon by giving people contaminated blankets. Like 127 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: there's been right back and forth about that idea over 128 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: the years. Just a whole complicated thing. Um. And it's like, 129 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you can you can only eradicate 130 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: a disease if if enough people are vaccinated against it. 131 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: And when it came to eradicating smallpox, I think we've 132 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: talked about this in the earlier smallpox episode, but not 133 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: until this one, Like it took really really careful management. 134 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: And if somebody developed smallpox, they would kind of make 135 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: a ring around that person with vaccine and like vaccine, 136 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: vaccinate all the people who were going to be in 137 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: close contact with them. Um. And if somebody said no, 138 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: like that had the potential to to make the whole 139 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: process of trying to eradicate it go on longer if 140 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: that if that went on, So it's like a whole 141 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: complicated thing of like the human interest aspect of meeting 142 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: everyone to be vaccinated in order to stop the progression 143 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: of disease, but also people having bodily autonomy about what 144 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: they want to do with their bodies. I had a 145 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: lot of I don't know, thinking and soul searching about 146 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: all of these things while working on this episodes. I 147 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: am very glad that medical technology has progressed to the 148 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: point that we don't need arm to arm, chains of 149 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: children to transport for sure. Yeah, yes, also glad. But 150 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: we have so many different COVID vaccines that are being 151 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, demonstrated is pretty effective. Yeah, it's exciting. I 152 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: mean the science behind that is to my mind really cool, 153 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: and so there's like a whole other element to it 154 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: where it's like, no, it's not like previous vaccines where 155 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: you're getting dormant virus. It's attacking the whole structure of 156 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: it instead, and that to me is just like super 157 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: hart cool. Yeah, pretending the pandemic did not exist, I 158 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: would just be fascinated by the science of it. Um, 159 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: the pandemic existing makes it all feel a little more urgent. 160 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: But urgent is exactly the word I was thinking of. Yeah, 161 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about like the vaccines 162 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: and how they were developed and how they worked and 163 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: all of that again. The podcast saw Bones as a 164 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: medical history podcast and you will have explanations from an 165 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: actual doctor, which we are not no so anyway, Happy 166 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: Friday again to everyone. I hope everybody has a great 167 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: weekend and if you want to send us a note, 168 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: go for it. Where History podcast i heart radio dot com. 169 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 170 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 171 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 172 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.