WEBVTT - Using Bacteria to Dye Jeans 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.756 --> 0:00:23.356 There's this idea people have been waving their hands about 0:00:23.356 --> 0:00:25.716 for a while. Now, what if we're about to have 0:00:25.796 --> 0:00:30.476 a huge wave of technological progress in biology. On a 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:33.556 few recent episodes of this show, we've talked about one 0:00:33.636 --> 0:00:37.076 obvious place we'd see that wave in medicine, with things 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.156 like new drugs and human tissues grown in the lab. 0:00:40.716 --> 0:00:43.676 But the impact could be much broader than that. There's 0:00:43.716 --> 0:00:47.956 this whole nascent industry called synthetic biology. People are trying 0:00:47.956 --> 0:00:51.516 to genetically engineer yeast and bacteria to produce everything from 0:00:51.636 --> 0:00:56.836 fertilizer to fragrances. Take, for example, indigo colored dye, the 0:00:56.956 --> 0:00:59.916 dye used on billions of pairs of genes a year. 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:05.916 That's j E, A N S, not ge nes, unfortunate 0:01:05.956 --> 0:01:09.836 hominem in this context today, that in goo colored dye 0:01:09.876 --> 0:01:12.796 typically comes from petrochemicals, and it's made in a process 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:15.716 with lots of nasty byproducts. But what if you could 0:01:15.756 --> 0:01:19.596 use bacteria to make industrial quantities of that dye and 0:01:19.676 --> 0:01:26.676 get rid of all the nasty by products. I'm Jacob 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:29.396 Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem the show where 0:01:29.436 --> 0:01:32.836 I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 0:01:33.396 --> 0:01:36.956 My guests today are Tammy Sue and Michelle Jude. They 0:01:36.956 --> 0:01:40.356 are the co founders of a company called Hugh hu 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:44.316 u Me. Michelle is the CEO and Tammy is the 0:01:44.356 --> 0:01:50.116 CSO Chief Scientific Officer. Their problem is this, how can 0:01:50.156 --> 0:01:53.676 you get bacteria to produce indigo dye? And how can 0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:56.636 you do it cheaply and reliably enough to replace the 0:01:56.716 --> 0:01:59.316 dye made from petrochemicals. 0:02:00.156 --> 0:02:00.756 To start. 0:02:00.876 --> 0:02:04.196 I asked Michelle and Tammy how they arrived at their problem. 0:02:04.396 --> 0:02:07.076 As it turns out, they discovered the problem from very 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:08.036 different directions. 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:14.556 Shell answered first, So, my family, you know, we're immigrants 0:02:14.596 --> 0:02:18.236 from China, came here to you know, move to la 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:20.636 when I was three years old, and that's when my 0:02:20.756 --> 0:02:25.156 parents actually started their own kind of traditional, you know, 0:02:25.236 --> 0:02:28.836 wholesale apparel business. So I really, I would say, I 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:32.836 grew up in this like fashion and apparel business, but 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:39.796 not in a very glamorous way. My experiences or or 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:45.196 recollections of the fashion industry. Growing up in this family 0:02:45.276 --> 0:02:49.756 business was literally you know, traveling with my parents in 0:02:50.276 --> 0:02:54.916 family vacations back to China over the summers and visiting 0:02:55.076 --> 0:03:01.076 these mills or garment factories and really firsthand witnessing some 0:03:01.356 --> 0:03:07.636 of the the negative impacts right of apparel manufacturing and 0:03:07.756 --> 0:03:11.636 specifically you know, my parents their business was a they 0:03:11.636 --> 0:03:15.956 were doing streetwear right in the nineties, and so Denham 0:03:16.076 --> 0:03:18.156 was like a big part of that. And so you 0:03:18.196 --> 0:03:23.756 know it was specifically denim mills and and denim manufacturing. 0:03:23.996 --> 0:03:26.556 And so what did you see, like specifically when when 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:30.476 you mentioned that you saw saw that side of the industry, Like, 0:03:30.876 --> 0:03:33.276 is there a particular trip or a particular thing that 0:03:33.316 --> 0:03:35.916 you saw that that stands out in your memory. 0:03:36.956 --> 0:03:39.316 Yeah, I mean I think about you know, going to 0:03:39.956 --> 0:03:44.036 the kind of literally like you know, textile manufacturing cities 0:03:44.156 --> 0:03:49.116 right in southern China where it's just like, you know, 0:03:50.236 --> 0:03:52.996 a bunch of kind of conglomertive factories all you know, 0:03:53.156 --> 0:03:57.476 all together. The air quality kind of outside isn't great. 0:03:57.556 --> 0:04:01.476 You go into the facility, it's even worse. Everybody has 0:04:01.636 --> 0:04:06.196 kind of masks on. There are basically like blue particles. 0:04:05.676 --> 0:04:06.476 In the air. 0:04:06.956 --> 0:04:10.396 You know, it's just on people's skins, you know. And 0:04:10.436 --> 0:04:14.036 I was a child right at this time, but those 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.276 are the kind of like images that are I think 0:04:17.356 --> 0:04:21.116 still ingrained in my mind. I Mean, the dye industry 0:04:21.276 --> 0:04:25.236 is a key kind of a fender, I would say 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:30.116 in terms of, like, you know, jobs that pose threats 0:04:30.196 --> 0:04:33.636 to safety, both in terms of worker health as well 0:04:33.676 --> 0:04:37.996 as community health. You know, dying and the effluence from dying, 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:42.916 you know, is a major source of water and kind 0:04:42.916 --> 0:04:45.796 of community pollution. Right. And by the way, you know, 0:04:45.876 --> 0:04:49.476 in the indigo process for example, right, specifically, you've got 0:04:49.716 --> 0:04:53.116 you know, not just analine, which is a benzene derivative, 0:04:53.196 --> 0:04:58.516 right that has true carcinogenic properties, but you've got you know, 0:04:58.916 --> 0:05:03.476 sodamide and formaldehyde and you know, these harsh chemicals that 0:05:03.556 --> 0:05:08.556 are going into the production process of these core dyes 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:12.676 have done a lot of innovation in the fashion industry, 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:15.756 but the kind of dye space itself hasn't seen a 0:05:15.756 --> 0:05:16.716 whole lot of innovation. 0:05:17.076 --> 0:05:23.836 Good. So that's your introduction to denim really early. The 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:27.156 seed is planted, right, yeah, Tammy, how do how do 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:28.716 you come into the story? 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:34.356 So my story and background is very different from Michelle's. 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:38.356 And so when I was in college, I was introduced 0:05:38.396 --> 0:05:42.516 to this field of synthetic biology, which is how do 0:05:42.596 --> 0:05:46.356 we take these microbes you know, e. Coli or yeast 0:05:47.116 --> 0:05:51.076 and actually program them to make them produce useful chemicals 0:05:51.356 --> 0:05:52.756 for for people. 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:55.436 So you're in you go to grad school, you go 0:05:55.436 --> 0:05:58.276 to get a PhD in Berkeley, and you find yourself 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:01.596 in a lab. What's what's the sort of generally what's 0:06:01.636 --> 0:06:02.596 the lab working on? 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:06.476 Yeah, so the lab I was in was working on 0:06:06.756 --> 0:06:11.076 how do we develop tools for engineering E. Coli and 0:06:11.196 --> 0:06:18.476 yeast microbes to produce things like drug precursors or colors 0:06:18.636 --> 0:06:22.756 or kind of other biochemicals. 0:06:22.316 --> 0:06:26.556 Get microbes to make useful stuff for people exactly exactly? 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:29.356 And how do you land on indigo? 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:32.876 Yeah, there was there was this idea kind of floating 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:37.196 around the lab right before I joined, about how do 0:06:37.276 --> 0:06:42.276 we produce indigo? Actually, I think it was because people 0:06:42.316 --> 0:06:44.596 wanted to be able to see what was going on 0:06:44.676 --> 0:06:49.156 inside the cells. Cells are really tiny, right, and often 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:51.516 you make these changes and you try to get the 0:06:51.756 --> 0:06:54.996 enzymes to do different things, but you don't really know 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:59.196 exactly what's going on without doing some complicated assay. So 0:06:59.236 --> 0:07:02.276 there was an idea that maybe we could use a 0:07:02.356 --> 0:07:05.036 color output, Like we change an enzyme and we get 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:08.476 this color output, and indigo is kind of this natural 0:07:08.516 --> 0:07:10.356 diet's found and plants, so they were like, maybe we 0:07:10.356 --> 0:07:12.996 could use indigo to see what's kind of going on 0:07:13.076 --> 0:07:13.476 in the cell. 0:07:14.036 --> 0:07:16.236 So just to be clear. So just to be clear, 0:07:16.276 --> 0:07:20.716 the idea of getting a cell to express indigo this 0:07:20.796 --> 0:07:24.196 blue color. The idea wasn't oh, let's make clean or 0:07:24.236 --> 0:07:27.276 dye for blue jens. It's let's make a tool for 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:30.996 scientists to use to understand what's going on inside the cell. 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:35.596 Initially, yeah, and then as we were kind of looking 0:07:35.596 --> 0:07:39.436 into it, it actually seemed like indigo itself was a 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:43.796 really big problem in the textile industry. Pretty much all 0:07:43.796 --> 0:07:48.116 indigos used for dnim genes and it we learned that 0:07:48.596 --> 0:07:51.436 all of it, the vast majority of it, is sourced 0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:54.756 from petrochemical sources right now, and so there was this 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:58.196 need to actually make it in a biologically sourced manner. 0:07:58.556 --> 0:08:02.156 My advisor was on this fellowship and they published an 0:08:02.236 --> 0:08:06.156 article showing some very preliminary results that we were having 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:09.076 in the lab on this project, and it was published 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:13.476 on the UC Berkeley website, and then Dune and brands 0:08:13.876 --> 0:08:16.636 in the area actually started to reach out to him 0:08:16.716 --> 0:08:20.436 and say, oh, I heard you're working on other ways 0:08:20.436 --> 0:08:23.876 to make indigo. Can we talk what is it like? 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:26.476 How much you know? Can we do a little trial, so. 0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:31.276 You decide to start the company. Tammy, you've done this research, Like, 0:08:31.516 --> 0:08:33.956 what exactly had you already done? What did you know 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:36.236 how to do when you started the company. 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:40.076 So at the end of my PhD, the last figure 0:08:40.196 --> 0:08:44.356 in the paper that we published was actually kind of 0:08:44.436 --> 0:08:47.836 unusual for a research paper. I had died one piece 0:08:47.996 --> 0:08:52.756 of fabric. It was a scarf with this indigo die. 0:08:53.356 --> 0:08:55.876 It was definitely died in a way that was not 0:08:56.036 --> 0:09:00.436 scalable and not industrially viable by any means. 0:09:00.796 --> 0:09:02.236 It smelled a little bit funky. 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:05.116 How how was it died? Like, how did you how 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:05.796 did you diet? 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:11.556 I actually hung up a shoelace across across the hallway 0:09:12.396 --> 0:09:15.996 and just kind of flopped this piece of fabric over it, 0:09:16.036 --> 0:09:19.596 and I sprayed the dye against it and used the 0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:23.516 bucket to catch the remaining dye at the bottom. It 0:09:23.556 --> 0:09:26.956 was definitely an experience, but we at the end of 0:09:26.956 --> 0:09:30.476 the day we got this nice blue fabric and it 0:09:30.516 --> 0:09:32.036 was kind of our first proof of concept. 0:09:32.796 --> 0:09:35.396 So it worked. It worked at least for one scarf, 0:09:35.436 --> 0:09:38.756 one time in the hallway, at least once exactly good. 0:09:38.956 --> 0:09:41.996 I want to clarify that even though it turned blue 0:09:42.676 --> 0:09:45.356 that before. Right, we were literally telling the story yesterday 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:47.596 to the company. It was like that was like, okay, 0:09:47.956 --> 0:09:51.076 blue is great. We had no idea you know, oh 0:09:51.116 --> 0:09:54.556 it's kind of blue greenish, or like you know what 0:09:54.676 --> 0:09:59.636 exactly all of that means. We had no capability to 0:09:59.676 --> 0:10:03.236 measure or understand any of that. So really getting it 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:06.316 to those industrial specs, I would say, was probably the 0:10:06.396 --> 0:10:11.196 first major challenge that the company that we as a 0:10:11.236 --> 0:10:12.276 team had to tackle. 0:10:12.556 --> 0:10:16.156 So tell me about that, right, Like, blue isn't good enough? Right, 0:10:16.156 --> 0:10:18.276 you can't go to some genes manufacturer's going to make 0:10:18.316 --> 0:10:20.356 one hundred thousand pairs of genes be like yeah, it's blue. 0:10:20.396 --> 0:10:22.196 They're not gonna be like great, send it to us, right, 0:10:22.236 --> 0:10:24.236 so what do you have to do to get it 0:10:24.236 --> 0:10:25.676 to be the right kind of blue? 0:10:25.796 --> 0:10:28.716 So kind of where where we were at when at 0:10:28.796 --> 0:10:31.956 this first proof of concept was okay, so you have cells. 0:10:32.116 --> 0:10:35.556 They're making this indigo molecule. We know it's literally indigo molecule. 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:38.876 The cells are growing in their own media. We just 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:41.636 try to like you know, break open the cells and 0:10:41.676 --> 0:10:44.396 try to you know, get the blue onto the fabric. 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:47.316 But that's not necessarily good enough, right, so you've. 0:10:47.116 --> 0:10:50.996 Got the right molecule, what do you have to what 0:10:51.036 --> 0:10:53.276 do you have to fix when you're you know, starting 0:10:53.276 --> 0:10:56.596 the company, leaving academia, going to make this industrial product. 0:10:56.756 --> 0:10:58.036 What do you have to fix on the kind of 0:10:58.076 --> 0:10:58.916 molecular level. 0:10:59.276 --> 0:11:01.796 I think the main thing is how do we separate 0:11:01.876 --> 0:11:05.116 out the indigo molecule away from all of the other things, 0:11:05.156 --> 0:11:06.836 all of the cells and all of the things that 0:11:06.876 --> 0:11:11.036 the cell is growing in. And so at the very beginning, 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:15.196 a lot of our methods were very rudimentary, using you know, 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:20.596 some off the shelf chemical engineering ways, and so that's 0:11:20.636 --> 0:11:23.156 why our first dye turned out a little bit green. 0:11:23.916 --> 0:11:27.436 And that's why kind of our first first hire was 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:31.156 in a downstream processing engineer so that he could help 0:11:31.236 --> 0:11:32.956 us fix this problem. 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:34.836 So the problem is, how do you get rid of 0:11:34.956 --> 0:11:39.156 everything that is not the indigo dye molecule, all the 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:41.236 cells that made it, all the stuff that the cells 0:11:41.236 --> 0:11:42.636 were grown. You got to get rid of all that, 0:11:42.716 --> 0:11:46.756 but keep the dye. That's the first hard problem, exactly exactly. 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:49.116 And then kind of pairing that, I think the other 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:53.836 key unlock for us was also bringing in actual textile 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:58.036 technical expertise, so no longer are we doing a visual 0:11:58.116 --> 0:12:00.636 test of is it blue or not? But now we 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:05.676 can actually precisely quantify how green is it, how red 0:12:05.876 --> 0:12:09.636 is it relative to the amount of blue, and how 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:17.196 close is that literally numerically compared to the synthetic standard 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:18.316 that we want to be match up. 0:12:18.396 --> 0:12:21.596 So there's figuring it out at that level, and then 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:26.996 there's figuring out how to make thousands of pounds of 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:30.916 this die, right, which seems like a related but distinct 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:32.996 problem that you've got to be solving sort of at 0:12:32.996 --> 0:12:33.636 the same time. 0:12:34.316 --> 0:12:35.196 Yeah, exactly. 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:39.956 So you know, like when Dunham Brands came a knocking, 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:42.516 They're like, can you make a kilogram? 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:43.756 I was like, absolutely not. 0:12:44.956 --> 0:12:49.956 And so one of the big limitations thus far in 0:12:50.236 --> 0:12:53.076 this field of synthetic biology is, Okay, so you can 0:12:53.156 --> 0:12:56.116 grow your microbe, you can grow it at larger scale, 0:12:56.636 --> 0:13:00.396 but how do we actually get the space to produce 0:13:00.436 --> 0:13:04.476 this at a large industrial scale over and over in 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:05.636 a really repeatable way. 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:08.716 And so for that you need really large scale equipment. 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:12.036 How do you truly industrialized how do you make lots 0:13:12.076 --> 0:13:15.636 and lots of dye every day in a factory? For us? 0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:16.076 Exactly? 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:20.116 And I think even that we with the growth of 0:13:20.116 --> 0:13:24.596 the synthetic biology industry, there's been a lot more demand 0:13:24.676 --> 0:13:29.196 and building out of these contract manufacturers where we can 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:30.796 we don't have to build our own facility. We can 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:34.836 kind of drop into an outsource facility and be able 0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:36.756 to make use of that infrastructure. 0:13:39.076 --> 0:13:41.116 Tammy and our team have now reached the point where 0:13:41.116 --> 0:13:44.196 they can in fact make not just one kilogram of dye, 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:49.396 but hundreds of kilograms. Progress after the break, what they 0:13:49.436 --> 0:13:51.716 still have to figure out to get their die out 0:13:51.756 --> 0:14:02.236 into the real world. That's the end of the ads. 0:14:02.636 --> 0:14:03.756 Now we're going back to the show. 0:14:04.516 --> 0:14:08.036 So maybe for Michelle, Michelle, can you tell me just 0:14:08.236 --> 0:14:11.156 where's the company now? What are you making now? And 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:13.796 like what can you not do yet that you need 0:14:13.836 --> 0:14:14.036 to do? 0:14:14.876 --> 0:14:17.876 M So, so maybe just taking a step back, I 0:14:18.116 --> 0:14:22.596 would say, you know, from back then when Tammy thought 0:14:22.716 --> 0:14:25.516 one killogram was too much, you know, I think we've 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:31.436 really been able to step up in production every year 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:36.156 as we've also refined and iterated on the process and 0:14:36.236 --> 0:14:40.516 the product. So you know, have gone from making just 0:14:40.556 --> 0:14:44.956 a couple of grams to a couple killograms to now, 0:14:45.116 --> 0:14:48.236 you know, hundreds of kilograms, and we have an eye 0:14:48.276 --> 0:14:53.236 towards you know, metric tons, so thousands of kilograms, so 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:55.996 that we can actually meet the industry in these needs, right, 0:14:56.036 --> 0:14:59.756 which is the tens of thousands of metric tons kind 0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:00.276 of level. 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:04.036 And so when do you think you'll be able to 0:15:04.076 --> 0:15:06.076 make at a big enough scale that you can actually 0:15:06.356 --> 0:15:09.396 sell it to somebody who's going to make g means 0:15:09.436 --> 0:15:11.276 for me and the world. 0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:17.476 Yeah, well, so we are. We have been testing and 0:15:17.556 --> 0:15:21.316 trialing our product to make sure that we're approving kind 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:24.116 of the iterations of the product and designing something that 0:15:24.236 --> 0:15:27.956 is truly drop in and usable for the denim industry. 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:32.756 We are already working with brands that you know, I 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:36.716 think listeners, you know and love. 0:15:37.236 --> 0:15:40.236 Can you say the name? Can you say one name 0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:41.076 of one brand? 0:15:41.876 --> 0:15:44.236 We cannot share the name uncorriginately. 0:15:44.436 --> 0:15:47.156 Okay, when do you think I can buy a pair 0:15:47.156 --> 0:15:48.676 of genes? Died with your die? 0:15:48.996 --> 0:15:50.756 So I'm not going to make any promises, but I 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:54.036 would say, you know, in the next couple years. 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:58.756 For sure, you just made a promise. I'll take it. 0:15:59.436 --> 0:16:06.156 You're right, that's true? Cut out the foresure. Yeah, No, 0:16:06.436 --> 0:16:08.556 I mean just to say, I think you know we 0:16:08.716 --> 0:16:13.876 are in you know, we're working collaboratively with the brands, 0:16:14.156 --> 0:16:17.836 and it's really a matter of our own capacity and 0:16:17.916 --> 0:16:20.596 scaling and then kind of bringing the cost down over 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:23.476 time too, so that it can be something that continues 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:26.436 to be more and more accessible to the broader fashion industry. 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:29.516 So let's talk about the cost. Yeah, tell me about 0:16:29.556 --> 0:16:30.636 the economics of it. 0:16:31.596 --> 0:16:35.596 I mean, it's it's one of the big goals of 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:38.556 the business to make it write a success. You know, 0:16:38.636 --> 0:16:42.516 I would say, we're definitely not there yet right to 0:16:42.596 --> 0:16:45.516 your point, you know, probably and you know, order of 0:16:45.596 --> 0:16:50.636 magnitude of productivity away. In order to get there, you. 0:16:50.596 --> 0:16:55.996 Think it needs to be the same price as petrochemical dies. 0:16:56.356 --> 0:16:59.996 So what I would say on the kind of price 0:17:00.156 --> 0:17:05.436 side is I think we're making a bet that brands 0:17:06.476 --> 0:17:10.116 in the greater supply chain understand the big picture here 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:15.276 and the opportunity is that, you know, luckily dies they 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:19.396 can make this huge visual impact, but again they're only 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:25.476 actually a very tiny fraction of what makes the garment itself. 0:17:25.996 --> 0:17:30.236 And so we believe there's a path to commercializing early 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:35.156 even before we are cost neutral with the petrochemicals. But 0:17:35.236 --> 0:17:40.556 we can commercialize early to help build the business before 0:17:40.636 --> 0:17:43.676 we're there. At the cost side, because it just doesn't 0:17:43.716 --> 0:17:47.076 make a huge difference on the end price of the 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:50.076 garment for example. Well as an example, it's like, are 0:17:50.156 --> 0:17:54.356 you willing to pay five dollars more for a pair 0:17:54.396 --> 0:17:58.476 of genes to help to facilitate that transition of the 0:17:58.596 --> 0:18:02.196 industry to better materials before it becomes cost neutral? 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:05.956 And just to be clear, like five dollars more is 0:18:06.036 --> 0:18:10.076 when your die is how much more expensive that petrochemical 0:18:10.116 --> 0:18:11.476 based die. 0:18:12.116 --> 0:18:18.076 Five dollars more is like is like ten x more 0:18:18.156 --> 0:18:20.996 expensive chemical die. 0:18:20.476 --> 0:18:23.636 The die The die cost is a very small percentage 0:18:23.756 --> 0:18:27.836 of the overall cost of a paragenes exactly. Okay, So 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:31.916 presumably there's like the sort of classic early adopter curve 0:18:31.916 --> 0:18:35.036 where there's a universe of people willing to pay more 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.596 because they care or because they want to signal to 0:18:38.636 --> 0:18:41.076 people that they care whether they care or not. And 0:18:42.476 --> 0:18:44.876 those people will be your early adopters who will allow 0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:46.836 you to scale, and then you'll use that scale to 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:50.596 become a cost neutral. That's the dream. 0:18:50.836 --> 0:18:53.356 Yeah, I think so, I think we think about, you know, 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:56.316 the Tesla model for this right where you see. 0:18:56.076 --> 0:19:01.556 Everybody loves the Tesla. Everybody, everybody who's not making software 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:03.116 everybody who's making a physical thing. 0:19:03.276 --> 0:19:03.596 It is. 0:19:03.676 --> 0:19:08.556 It is really remarkable how that metaphor is the It's 0:19:08.556 --> 0:19:10.556 like it used to the uber but for X, but 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:14.196 now it's Tesla. But literally yesterday I was talking to 0:19:14.236 --> 0:19:16.316 a guy who's doing that with houses. He's building these 0:19:16.356 --> 0:19:19.996 little backyard houses. Cover. The companies called Cover and they're 0:19:19.996 --> 0:19:23.796 building like really nice little backyard studio apartments. But they 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:25.876 want to build houses and they want them to be cheaper, 0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:28.356 and it's a Tesla metaphor. 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:30.956 It's like you go to the premium and you go 0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:33.356 down and it worked. 0:19:33.236 --> 0:19:36.956 And it worked for them. They did it. Are you 0:19:36.956 --> 0:19:38.076 working on other colors? 0:19:38.396 --> 0:19:42.916 You know, there's a broader platform and kind of opportunity 0:19:42.996 --> 0:19:47.556 here right to not just you know, disrupt denim, but 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:52.276 also the fashion industry and food and cosmetics in all 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:57.076 of these areas where color is infused into our daily lives. 0:19:57.436 --> 0:20:02.636 And so we're actually now taking our learnings from you know, 0:20:02.716 --> 0:20:07.996 bioengineering our first color product and looking at the broader 0:20:08.116 --> 0:20:11.036 kind of platform that we've developed and saying, how can 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:16.036 we also create a broader palette that isn't kind of 0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:20.236 one color at a time, knowing that there are tens 0:20:20.236 --> 0:20:24.276 of thousands of different colors in use in these variety 0:20:24.316 --> 0:20:25.356 of industries today. 0:20:25.756 --> 0:20:30.556 Uh huh. Build a system that is more easily customizable 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:34.516 so that you can get the cells to make whatever 0:20:34.636 --> 0:20:35.916 is the color of the season. 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:37.156 That's right. 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:42.756 In a minute, the lightning round with lots of questions 0:20:42.796 --> 0:20:53.876 about genes and genes as in denim. Now back to 0:20:53.916 --> 0:20:58.076 the show. Let's let's do a lightning round. Let me 0:20:58.156 --> 0:21:00.516 just ask you a bunch of questions before it's time 0:21:00.556 --> 0:21:05.356 to go. Oh gosh, Okay, they'll be different, they'll be 0:21:05.396 --> 0:21:10.236 simpler and more fun. Okay for either of you. Why 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:14.716 are genes still almost always blue? 0:21:14.996 --> 0:21:17.236 Because I don't know if this is a very chicken 0:21:17.276 --> 0:21:20.316 and egg answer, but it's because it has to be 0:21:20.356 --> 0:21:24.276 made with indigo, and I think an indigo is blue. 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:27.676 And indigo actually binds the yarns in such a way 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:30.716 that you can kind of flake it off from the 0:21:31.396 --> 0:21:34.516 from the fabric, and you know, as you wear it, 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:37.316 it takes the shape of you know, your body or 0:21:37.476 --> 0:21:39.796 you know, the wallet that you put in your back pocket. 0:21:40.876 --> 0:21:44.036 And it's really rare to have a dye that has 0:21:44.076 --> 0:21:44.916 these properties. 0:21:45.276 --> 0:21:48.036 I've seen numbers that seem wild for the number of 0:21:48.236 --> 0:21:51.276 jeans made in a year? Do you does either you 0:21:51.356 --> 0:21:53.036 know a true number for that? 0:21:54.316 --> 0:21:58.556 So our latest estimates are number of gens every year 0:21:58.756 --> 0:22:02.916 made is about two to four billion garments. 0:22:02.756 --> 0:22:07.316 Billion, Like that's billion. That's wild, right, Like yes, I 0:22:07.316 --> 0:22:08.916 mean what are we at for the world? 0:22:08.916 --> 0:22:09.276 Now? 0:22:09.316 --> 0:22:10.276 Eight billion people? 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:11.556 Is that? Is that right? 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:13.916 So it's like in a few years you have a 0:22:13.916 --> 0:22:16.556 pair of genes for every single man, woman, and child 0:22:16.556 --> 0:22:16.996 on earth. 0:22:17.156 --> 0:22:17.956 Yeah, exactly. 0:22:19.036 --> 0:22:23.036 Okay, here's one for both of you. And I want 0:22:23.076 --> 0:22:25.116 you to try and answer at the same time. So 0:22:25.156 --> 0:22:28.396 I'm gonna ask the question and then I'm gonna say one, two, three, 0:22:28.796 --> 0:22:30.476 and then when I get to three, I want you 0:22:30.556 --> 0:22:33.996 to just give a yes or no answer. Can you 0:22:34.076 --> 0:22:37.596 wear a jean jacket with jeans? Yes? 0:22:37.716 --> 0:22:37.876 Or no? 0:22:38.156 --> 0:22:38.356 One? 0:22:38.436 --> 0:22:38.996 Two three? 0:22:39.916 --> 0:22:47.996 Yes? Oh, it's coming back. It's a trend that is 0:22:48.076 --> 0:22:50.116 coming back. Now, I'm telling. 0:22:49.876 --> 0:22:53.076 You that may be true. That may be true. 0:22:53.436 --> 0:22:56.076 Michelle, you came to hear from the business world. What 0:22:56.076 --> 0:22:58.116 do you know about science now that you didn't know 0:22:58.156 --> 0:22:59.236 when you started the company? 0:22:59.596 --> 0:23:06.076 Ooh, too much? I know. I know so much about science. 0:23:06.156 --> 0:23:08.996 I know enough to be dangerous to talk about by 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:15.236 engineering and chemical engineering. And you know the bio manufacturing 0:23:16.276 --> 0:23:19.516 to be to be really dangerous. So just to say, 0:23:19.996 --> 0:23:22.716 you know, I think there's a lot of great science, 0:23:22.796 --> 0:23:26.676 a lot of great ideas out there, but actually, you know, 0:23:26.716 --> 0:23:30.196 I have a lot of respect for the chemical engineers 0:23:30.356 --> 0:23:34.356 and the folks who actually go from R and D 0:23:34.476 --> 0:23:37.956 to actually turn it into something that has a commercial 0:23:38.036 --> 0:23:41.236 case around it. And you know, we need to make 0:23:41.316 --> 0:23:45.716 those tough decisions and work on those optimization problems to 0:23:45.836 --> 0:23:49.556