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Speaker 1: visit about hb X dot com slash how Stuff Works.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. So, Robert,

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Speaker 1: you and I both play video games. We do. We've

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Speaker 1: both been playing Fallout for Yeah, I was playing fall

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Speaker 1: for Now I'm playing x coom To. But both have

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Speaker 1: one huge thing in common, and that is that they

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Speaker 1: both of these games involve soldier characters essentially engaging in

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Speaker 1: sci fi battles and and then consuming various pharmaceutical products

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Speaker 1: in order to survive. The horrors of war, to heal themselves,

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Speaker 1: to avoid going crazy, to go just the right amount

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Speaker 1: of crazy to overcome the obstacles. My my fallout for

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Speaker 1: character is a big time drug addict, like major issues

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Speaker 1: with drugs, because I just constantly and like putting what

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Speaker 1: like jet and psycho and buff out into my like

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Speaker 1: system so that I'm like better fights and um and

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Speaker 1: you can combine them in this game, can Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: he's also or it's actually ah, is my character is

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Speaker 1: she in this one? No? In Fault four, I have

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Speaker 1: a male character. But anyway, Yeah, he's constantly brewing up concoctions,

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Speaker 1: little cocktails of stimulant drugs and then you know, of

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Speaker 1: course and follow you eventually get that thing where if

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Speaker 1: you take too many of them you start seeing side effects.

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Speaker 1: So my character is to the point now where he's

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Speaker 1: always carrying around whatever the like detox drug is, yes,

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Speaker 1: and like popping those so that like he can sober up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my character she did. She never she never had a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff and abuse problems in the thought for

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Speaker 1: but I did reach the point where she was having

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Speaker 1: to carry around the the anti addiction medication and just

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Speaker 1: tons of buff out, which is like the steroid that

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Speaker 1: allows you to carry more items because going out fighting enemies,

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Speaker 1: having to loot the enemies, and then can't move because

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Speaker 1: I'm carrying so much stuff, I have to start using

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Speaker 1: the buff out. Yeah, that's an you know what, I've

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Speaker 1: never thought about using buff out to do that before,

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Speaker 1: but that totally makes sense. I usually just turned my

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Speaker 1: companions into pack mules, just make them carry everything. Well.

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Speaker 1: So the reason why we're talking about this this isn't

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Speaker 1: the hasn't become a video game podcast if you're a

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Speaker 1: regular listener, But we are curious about the science of

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Speaker 1: combat drugs and where we're at with that in modern

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Speaker 1: day society. And what seems to have sparked this was

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Speaker 1: a recent episode of Black Mirror. Yeah, yeah, the I

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Speaker 1: want to say it's the fifth episode in season three,

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Speaker 1: an episode titled Men Against Fire. We're not gonna go

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Speaker 1: into any spoilers to that episode until perhaps the very

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Speaker 1: end of the episode. We'll give you fair warning, uh,

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Speaker 1: but suffice to say it deals with this topic in

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Speaker 1: um and I thought a rather rather thought provoking manner,

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Speaker 1: and so we did the research on this. We've got

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Speaker 1: some science on military chemistry to share with you today.

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Speaker 1: The phrase that I came across that I really like

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Speaker 1: is better warriors through chemistry. Um. It is a complicated,

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Speaker 1: uh topic, especially in terms of ethics. And I didn't

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess, like in the back of my head,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that, like you and I read science

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Speaker 1: articles on a pretty regular basis, I thought that it

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Speaker 1: was a little more sci fi than it actually is.

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Speaker 1: Like my version of it, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like sure, there's got to be a drug that gives

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Speaker 1: you better eyesight right now or something like that, you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I think what it's reminding me of is our

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Speaker 1: episode on cyborgs. And one of the articles for this

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Speaker 1: research did refer to the ways of using drugs on

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Speaker 1: soldiers to make them better warriors as a version of

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Speaker 1: cyborg ism. Um. And and actually this is a good

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Speaker 1: way to lead into there's article in the Bulletin of

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Speaker 1: Atomic Scientists called the Enhanced Warfighter, and in that they

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Speaker 1: argue that there are four different categories for the potential

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Speaker 1: enhancement of military personnel, and the ones they list our

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Speaker 1: genetic alteration of the human body, which is very controversial,

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Speaker 1: physiological monitoring, and a tighter coupling between man and sheen.

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Speaker 1: Pharmaceuticals was what, which is what we're mainly going to

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Speaker 1: focus on today, and then nutrition and supplementation, which we

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Speaker 1: will also talk about today. They they in that one

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Speaker 1: on that's kind of a positive note, right like the

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Speaker 1: other three or varying levels of creepy. But then oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know they should eat. Well, that's there's nothing intrinsically

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Speaker 1: horrible about that. Well, it turns out, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: to this later that there are some issues surrounding dietary

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Speaker 1: supplements of the military as well. Um, but today we're

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Speaker 1: really interested in the pharmaceuticals. One. As of eleven, nearly

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Speaker 1: a hundred and ten thousand active duty army troops and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about United States troops here because that's where

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Speaker 1: we're based in UH they were prescribed with either antidepressants, narcotics, sedatives, antipsychotics,

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Speaker 1: or anti anxiety drugs. This is eight times the amount

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Speaker 1: that was reported in two thousand and five. I guess

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Speaker 1: you could some people would just chalk that up to

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Speaker 1: a higher usage of those UH medications in society in general. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I mean that's one one take you can

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Speaker 1: you can have on it, is that certainly we live

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Speaker 1: in a more medicated society. Yeah. But then of course

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Speaker 1: the other side is that like this is war, and

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Speaker 1: war has always been a traumatic endeavor absolutely, um. And

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Speaker 1: so the ultimate reason why science is reviewing all of

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Speaker 1: this information is the continual belief that the government and

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Speaker 1: the military must balance long term health hazards with the

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Speaker 1: drug effects that are designed to reduce a soldier's risk

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Speaker 1: for injury or death. So, of course you want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that your soldiers survived the experience, but you

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Speaker 1: also want to make sure that in the long term

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Speaker 1: when they get back, they're they're healthy both physically and mentally. Um,

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Speaker 1: that you're not subjecting them to something that they didn't

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Speaker 1: sign up for. Yeah, because you know, we we turned

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Speaker 1: to these sci fi examples. But a real life soldier

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Speaker 1: is not a space marine. It's not this, uh, this

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Speaker 1: inhuman individual who goes out and just battles bad guys

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Speaker 1: his or her entire life and you know, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a family or other concerns. There are individuals

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Speaker 1: who who go off into this endeavor and then I

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Speaker 1: want to come back, expect you to come back and have,

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Speaker 1: if not a completely civilian life, then at least have

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Speaker 1: these these non warfare modules to their existence. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the articles that I read described it as

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Speaker 1: it might have actually been this atomic scientists one. Um.

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Speaker 1: They said, you know, we need to remember that these

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Speaker 1: are people and not machines. Um. And yeah, like you may,

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Speaker 1: military officials may treat them like machines, like when they're

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Speaker 1: strategizing war. Right. But yeah, like you said, like they

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Speaker 1: you eventually want them to be able to return to

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Speaker 1: civilian life, and presumably so do they. Yeah, it's not

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Speaker 1: something you have to worry about an x com right exactly,

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Speaker 1: nor in fallout. There's no real civilian life except for

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Speaker 1: I don't know, hanging out on the beach with your

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Speaker 1: with your dog. I guess that's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a civilian life. Us. You could the game is open

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Speaker 1: enough that you could carve out a civilian life. But

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Speaker 1: you can get married or where I don't know, married

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Speaker 1: isn't the right term. But I have multiple uh uh

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Speaker 1: spouses throughout the waste land. Oh well, my character is

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Speaker 1: polygamous in that. Uh So, yeah, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: Better warriors through chemistry. So for military officials, performance enhancing

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Speaker 1: drugs are seen as the key to the success of

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Speaker 1: military conflicts. What they're imagining is the ability to keep

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Speaker 1: soldiers fighting for days at a time without rest and

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Speaker 1: with the ability to perform in ways beyond the level

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Speaker 1: of most of today's enlisted people. Specifically, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the ability to operate without sleep. That is seen as

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Speaker 1: a game changer for military affairs, and it changes the

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Speaker 1: concept of what is referred to in strategy as operational tempo.

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Speaker 1: This is beyond dealing with sleep deprivation in PTSD as well.

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Speaker 1: There are also hopes that chemistry will allow soldiers to

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Speaker 1: reduce their acclimatization to high altitudes or to being under water.

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Speaker 1: And of course, if you're a soldier, why wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: take a performance enhancing drug that's going to increase your

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Speaker 1: chance of coming home alive? Right, Um, So there shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be I'd like to stress this, like, there shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: like negative value judgments on the soldiers that are doing this,

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Speaker 1: especially like in some cases we'll find out like it

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Speaker 1: is required of them as part of their military service.

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Speaker 1: But the reason why it's becoming more prevalent is we're

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Speaker 1: moving into this era where more wars are going to

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Speaker 1: be fought using attack aircraft that are flown for really

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Speaker 1: long distances, and as more adversaries developed ballistic missile technology,

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Speaker 1: we are going to attack from further away. Right, there

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Speaker 1: will be further back, longer flights. And you'll find out

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Speaker 1: today like a lot of what we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about with stimulant uses is based around air force pilots,

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Speaker 1: long flights, long bomber runs. Historically, that sort of thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so according to ABC News in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: the military spent a hundred million dollars a year. That

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Speaker 1: was ten years ago, so it's probably I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it's up to now. I couldn't find research on that,

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Speaker 1: but they were spending that much money a year on

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Speaker 1: research to find ways to reduce soldiers need for sleep

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Speaker 1: while retaining their cognitive functions. So that's hugely important to them. Um,

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Speaker 1: So let's segue into this. That is of course a

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Speaker 1: major reason to stay alert, to be motivated, But what

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Speaker 1: are the other reasons? Why would you What are the

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Speaker 1: other reasons you would take various drugs? Right? We think

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Speaker 1: about like the video game ones. While there's like healing

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Speaker 1: drugs or strong drugs, steroids, Uh, there's ones that slow

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Speaker 1: down time. I don't think we have those in real

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Speaker 1: life yet not not exactly um like I guess you

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Speaker 1: could say relative relativistically speaking. But and then there's those

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Speaker 1: that make you work se as well. I'm reminded again,

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Speaker 1: like time and time again, of the the old adage

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Speaker 1: that that a battle is one not necessarily by large,

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Speaker 1: sweeping advantages, but by a whole lot of small, sometimes

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Speaker 1: petty advantages that are stacked one on top of the other.

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Speaker 1: So like every advantage that you can take, you take

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Speaker 1: because it it all can add up and uh and

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Speaker 1: and so it's kind of like filling out the character

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Speaker 1: sheet of the average soldier is like, yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: we're gonna buff that stat. Of course we're gonna buff

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Speaker 1: that stat. If we can buff that stat, will buffet

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Speaker 1: because buffing all of these stats improves the potential for

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Speaker 1: victory and both small and large victory, and of course

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Speaker 1: survivability of the soldier. Now we run into their additional

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Speaker 1: concerns when you start talking about long term survivability and

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Speaker 1: start talking about mental health. But we'll get into some

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Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, but I never thought about that before.

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Speaker 1: It is we're what we're talking about is essentially like

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Speaker 1: the minimaxing of warfare in the same way that like

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Speaker 1: people do with video games like World of Warcraft or

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Speaker 1: or tabletop games like D and D or something like that,

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Speaker 1: And like they're they're trying to fine tune uh their

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Speaker 1: warrior so that like it has all of the advantages

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Speaker 1: available to it, right, all the tools in the toolbox

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Speaker 1: are there. Uh, well, outside of being alert and motivated,

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Speaker 1: of course, being better and stronger and faster. Right the

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Speaker 1: old Daft Punk song, Uh, that is hugely important war

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Speaker 1: for the most part, outside of well, even with drone

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Speaker 1: drone use in some cases, I mean, you're still talking

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Speaker 1: about war as a physical exercise. Yeah, So steroid use

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Speaker 1: is up in military personnel, and in two thousand eight

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Speaker 1: it was one point nine percent. Uh, in two thousand

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Speaker 1: two it was only point nine percent, So there seems

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Speaker 1: to be a gradual rise going on there. But let's

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Speaker 1: be clear, the possession of steroids without a doctor's prescription

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Speaker 1: actually counts as a violation of the Uniform Code of Justice.

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Speaker 1: But some soldiers take them anyways to enhance their physical

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Speaker 1: abilities during combat. Again, as I was saying earlier, like

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Speaker 1: if you think that's gonna increase your chances of coming

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Speaker 1: home alive. That makes sense, right, Uh, so they get

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Speaker 1: them smuggled in mail order packages or they pass them

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Speaker 1: along by American contractors. But officials really keen to a

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Speaker 1: whole lot about this because it apparently would cost hundreds

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Speaker 1: of dollars just to screen each package in person, which

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Speaker 1: is outside of you know, the military's budget. The most

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Speaker 1: popular one. And I read this and I thought, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, that's not steroid. Is five hour energy, which

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Speaker 1: you know you see commercials for all the time. We

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Speaker 1: keep boxes of it here at work. That's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we do. Um get this, the military alone makes up

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Speaker 1: nine point two million dollars of that company's sales. But

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Speaker 1: then this is even crazier. That's only one percent of

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Speaker 1: their annual sales. I had no idea five hour energy

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Speaker 1: drink was that big man, I mean me neither. I

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Speaker 1: mean I know that it is everywhere, like literally, anywhere

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Speaker 1: you can buy something, there's gonna be a little a

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Speaker 1: little cube of those tiny bottles. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of it being used in the military, But it's also

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Speaker 1: only a fraction of what that company is selling to

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Speaker 1: the world. I think I've maybe had it once. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just never been appealing to me, But well, it's

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Speaker 1: not supposed to taste of right, Yeah, yeah, I have.

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Speaker 1: I've taken them more times than I than you care

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Speaker 1: to admit, would care to admit her account in my head? Um,

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Speaker 1: But you know that's the thing is like, sometimes it's like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I can shoot this thing, or I cannot

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Speaker 1: shoot this thing. If I shoot this thing, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have a momentary scowl on my face. But maybe have

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Speaker 1: you know a few more hours of energy to devote

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Speaker 1: to this test? Well in the concern and again like

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Speaker 1: five hour energy. I just kind of thought of it

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Speaker 1: as being like red Bull. But apparently the concern is

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Speaker 1: that the drink is actually impairing personnel performance and it

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Speaker 1: causes soldiers to sleep less, so much so that they're

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Speaker 1: dozing off while they're on duty. So there is a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a problem associated with it. Some soldiers

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Speaker 1: also take over the counter diet pills, diuretics, and laxatives.

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Speaker 1: This is what I was talking about, nutritional supplements so

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Speaker 1: they can meet the military's weight and fitness guidelines. I

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Speaker 1: didn't think about this either. So a two thousand three U. S.

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Speaker 1: Army Research Institute study on non prescriptions supplement use. Found

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Speaker 1: that nine of Special Forces soldiers used supplements of some sort,

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Speaker 1: so that's a lot um six sorry, seventy of support

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Speaker 1: soldiers also used them. And then the big example that

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Speaker 1: popped up here that made it that highlighted it tennis

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Speaker 1: player Maria Sharapova. Do you remember this when she used

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Speaker 1: a drug during like a tennis I think it was

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Speaker 1: the Australian Open maybe um and so she was subsequently

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Speaker 1: banned from this. It's a drug that was developed by

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Speaker 1: the Soviet military during their invasion of Afghanistan so that

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Speaker 1: their soldiers could focus under stress. And it's called meldoni um.

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Speaker 1: It's used to treat heart disease and other chronic conditions

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Speaker 1: pretty much on a regular basis in Russia and Eastern Europe.

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Speaker 1: It's also referred to as mill drawn eight and it

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Speaker 1: was developed by a guy named Ivars Kelvin's when he

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Speaker 1: was studying mechanisms of stress on the human body. Well,

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Speaker 1: so it was used in Afghanistan by Russian soldiers because

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Speaker 1: it helped them with high altitude oxygen deprivation. Now to

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Speaker 1: be clear here, Sharapova said the reason why she took

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Speaker 1: it was because she had a family history of diabetes

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Speaker 1: and low magnesium levels. She wasn't even aware that it

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Speaker 1: was illegal outside of Russia. Calvin's the guy who invented it, essentially.

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Speaker 1: For his part, he said, he doesn't even think that

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Speaker 1: it should qualify as as being something that provides an

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Speaker 1: unfair athletic advantage. So there's a lot of little little

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Speaker 1: ways out there, from five hour energy drink to these

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Speaker 1: like obscure Russian medications soldiers can take to enhance their performance.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting and looking at both this um this Russian

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Speaker 1: medication and the use of the five hour energy drinks

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Speaker 1: because we kind of get into this whole uh like

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Speaker 1: the hopeless Ebo effect again, and and and sort of

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Speaker 1: just putting a mild supernatural faith in whatever you're taking,

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Speaker 1: like is it actually helping you out? Is it providing

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Speaker 1: an athletic advantage? Is it actually is it actually making

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Speaker 1: an impact and your performance as a soldier, or is

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Speaker 1: it just hurting you when the pendulum swings back the

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Speaker 1: other way? It's uh an open question. I didn't add

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Speaker 1: this to the notes here, but one of the articles

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Speaker 1: that I was reading, like, I was talking about how

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Speaker 1: when he was at West Point he was basically doing

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Speaker 1: like an op ed piece for The New York Times

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Speaker 1: about his experience in the military and the various drugs

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Speaker 1: that came along his way while he was serving, and

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Speaker 1: he said it started when he was at West Point

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Speaker 1: and that, like everybody where, it was taking adderall to

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Speaker 1: help them to just be able to take their tests

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Speaker 1: and do the physical uh, you know, completion of of

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Speaker 1: their service required there. So yeah, I think it starts early.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's common. But like you said, I

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Speaker 1: mean Adderall five hour energy drinks, Like this is stuff

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Speaker 1: people I went to high school with. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: using We didn't have five hour energy back then. It

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Speaker 1: was different stuff. But uh, you know what I mean, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not like they're shooting heroin to get through classes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean Adderall is a prescription medication. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty potent stuff, it is. Yeah. That and

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Speaker 1: and that actually leads us, speaking of heroin, uh to

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Speaker 1: the next reason why a soldier would need drugs to

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Speaker 1: kill pain obviously. Yeah. Physical, It's like you said, war

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Speaker 1: is a physical is a physical enterprise, and it's a

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Speaker 1: bit of physical enterprise in which both sides are trying

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Speaker 1: to hurt and kill the other. So they're gonna be injuries,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna want to kill the pain in those injuries.

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Speaker 1: So combat medics often prescribe pain killers, and that includes ox, cotton, vicodin,

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Speaker 1: and morphine. Uh And in fact, like on a long

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Speaker 1: term basis to like they'll give them, you know, prescriptions

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Speaker 1: that last for a number of days so that they

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Speaker 1: can keep them on their feet. And this has always

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Speaker 1: been a h an issue soldiers coming coming back from

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Speaker 1: the war effort having to deal with injuries, having some

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Speaker 1: sort of medication uh in in in the mix and

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Speaker 1: it becoming a problem. Like I'm always so reminded of

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Speaker 1: the John Priyan song Samstone, I don't know that one

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Speaker 1: of the most depressing songs you ever heard, with the

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Speaker 1: about a guy who comes back from the war addicted

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Speaker 1: to morphine, with the course there's a hole in Daddy's

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Speaker 1: arm where all the money goes. It's a wonderful song,

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Speaker 1: but it'll it'll destroy yourself. Well yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: a very real thing. And of course, the military doesn't

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Speaker 1: want an injured soldier to leave the war zone, so

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Speaker 1: they've designed these pharmaceutical prescriptions so that soldiers stay on

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Speaker 1: their feet. They're they're continually in the war zone unless

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Speaker 1: they're you know, significantly injured. The downside is, like you said,

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Speaker 1: addiction and medication swapping is real common too. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: what about soldiers who come back from war and they're

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Speaker 1: dealing with trauma. We've talked about this a lot on

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Speaker 1: the show before, especially on We have a whole episode

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Speaker 1: out there about using m d m A to help

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Speaker 1: with PTSD. That's right. We also have one of the

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Speaker 1: Tetris episodes that Joe and I did a wombat gets

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Speaker 1: into ways that that may be used to help PTSD,

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Speaker 1: as well as our recent dream episodes that discuss some

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Speaker 1: of the ways that dream management software and dream manipulation

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Speaker 1: could be utilized, as well as other techniques involving the

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Speaker 1: selective deletion of memories. We also past podcasts to do

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Speaker 1: with that. Now, there are a few different PTSD medications

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Speaker 1: that are currently in use, and we'll get to those

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Speaker 1: in a bit. But of course, where is the post

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Speaker 1: traumatic stress coming from. It's coming from the traumas of

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Speaker 1: war and and this gets into another possible area, another

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Speaker 1: possible reason a military might want to augment their soldiers chemically,

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Speaker 1: and that is to make killing easier. Now there's this

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Speaker 1: is not something where there is you know, this is

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Speaker 1: this is not an area where you see a lot

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Speaker 1: of actual uh you know, research popping up was saying like, oh,

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Speaker 1: here here's something that certainly nothing where you see the

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Speaker 1: military saying, oh, they give this to soldiers to make

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Speaker 1: them make them more okay with killing. But a great

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Speaker 1: deal of the of military training is about trying to

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Speaker 1: hone soldiers performance so that they can kill when it

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Speaker 1: is required of them. And then a lot of the

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Speaker 1: problems with PTSD is sort of fixing things afterwards, because

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Speaker 1: one of the things it's easy to forget, especially as

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Speaker 1: we're you know, we're watching movies, we're playing video games,

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Speaker 1: is that is that killing is not easy for the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of pete UM. Most of us don't have

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Speaker 1: the experience of taking a human life in a combat situation,

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Speaker 1: so we can't even really compare it. We can only

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Speaker 1: compare it to these fictions. But it's actually quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of evidence out there that backs up the notion

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Speaker 1: they we have as humans a natural aversion to killing

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Speaker 1: each other, and aversion that is that is present in

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Speaker 1: typical human specimens and must be circumvented in the name

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Speaker 1: of war, and a lot of of the evidence for

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Speaker 1: this comes from military researchers who have a vested interest

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Speaker 1: and of course mapping and breaking those barriers from training. Yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: like it comes down to I don't know, maybe this

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Speaker 1: is a cress uh metaphor, but like I'm thinking again

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Speaker 1: about this, like minimaxing of a soldier, right, and this

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Speaker 1: is like you want to negate the effects, the emotional

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Speaker 1: and psychological effects that would go along with you know,

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Speaker 1: any quote unquote normal person killing someone else. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: I come back to xcom or and and and X

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Speaker 1: calm to where you're moving these soldiers around, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're becoming attached to them. You don't have to treat

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Speaker 1: them as actual human beings in staid. You you look

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Speaker 1: at them, and you you look at their percentage to hit,

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Speaker 1: their aim and their will, and you're in you're criticizing

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Speaker 1: some of these character like why is that why can't

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Speaker 1: this one not actually hit any of the enemies? When

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Speaker 1: why does this one uh panic and start shooting at

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Speaker 1: random objects just to the drop of a hat um.

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Speaker 1: But of course these are all sort of legitimate concerns

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Speaker 1: of taking uh taking humans who are not you know,

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Speaker 1: not not built for this, that have not evolved to

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Speaker 1: engage in this kind of of of warfare. So here's

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Speaker 1: the thing I've never thought about before. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: there's a video game out there, like a first person

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Speaker 1: shooter type game that takes PTSD into account. Um, maybe

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Speaker 1: there is. And I'm just not familiar to be something

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Speaker 1: in the in the indie realm, because certainly the big

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Speaker 1: blockbuster war games are seemed to be all about this uh,

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Speaker 1: this fantasy world war fair where there's there are no

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Speaker 1: real consequences to killing other individuals. Well that's so all right.

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Speaker 1: A little bit about myself here is like with these

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Speaker 1: video games, I personally just don't enjoy playing, especially shooter

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Speaker 1: games that are based down real life scenarios. I can

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Speaker 1: have some demons or some exactly yeah, like make it

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Speaker 1: like throw in some sci fi fantastic elements and I'm

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Speaker 1: right there. I'll enjoy it. But as a game, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the call of duty stuff doesn't appeal to me.

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Speaker 1: But then I think of like, well, what if there

429
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: was call of duty colon PTSD, you know, and it

430
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: was just like well, and I guess like I'm not

431
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: saying this as a joke, but more as like I guess,

432
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: like a way to make people aware of the actual

433
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: like effects of what's happening to the people in the

434
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: real world and acting these events and and um, you know,

435
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: we just listed like all these episodes in which we've

436
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: talked about ways to help people with PTSD. We've heard

437
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: from a lot of listeners who have PTSD and if

438
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: I tried some of these things, we have tried other things,

439
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: and it's very real affliction for them. So I guess

440
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: I just am thinking, like, one, I'm glad that it's

441
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: more out in open than it was twenty thirty years ago,

442
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: and like we're able to talk about it at least.

443
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: But I think I would like to play a game

444
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: like that, not in the sense of like, you know, uh,

445
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: enjoying the experience of PTSD, but that it would be

446
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: like a richer story because it's it's it's sobering when

447
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: you're playing one of these games I've been talking about,

448
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: like going to fall Out and pull up your your

449
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: kill stats for your God and it's like it's horrifying

450
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: because this character has killed your mess thousand people. Yeah,

451
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: they're a mass murder they're they're abhorrent, Like even those

452
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: world is is pretty abhorrent. Uh Like they're a part

453
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: of it and they're causing all of this pain and suffering. Yeah. Absolutely,

454
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: Now it is opposed to real life where you're you're

455
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: ultimately your average like kill ratio and hit ratio is

456
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: typically going to be uh far lower. Yeah, so get

457
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: into this. This is really interesting to me and I, um,

458
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: I only learned this for the recent it's for this

459
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: episode end. It's connected to the black Mirror thing where yeah, yeah,

460
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: this is this is interesting. A lot of it and

461
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: again a lot of this comes from military researchers who

462
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: are trying to to to figure out how to improve

463
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: performance of soldiers. So soldiers tend to intentionally fire over

464
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: the enemy's head or to not fire at all. That's

465
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: a just speaking broadly about um, the more or less

466
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: modern era of combat. I had no idea. I didn't

467
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: know that you have studies of Napoleonic and civil war

468
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: fighting that revealed that given individual ability of the men, range,

469
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: AMMO capacity, all that the number of enemy soldiers hit

470
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: should have been well over fifty, resulting in a killing

471
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: rate of hundreds per minute. But the hit rate was

472
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: only one or two per minute. Uh. This high firing

473
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: phenomenon continuing into World War One, and according to David

474
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: Grossman and Martha Stout in the Sociopath next Door, World

475
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: War two fire rates were also low. Historian and U S.

476
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: Brigadier General S. L. A. Marshall report that that the

477
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: firing rate was fifteen, so that out of every hundred

478
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: men engaged in a firefight, only fifteen to twenty actually

479
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: use their weapons. In Vietnam, for every enemy soldier killed,

480
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: more than fifty thousand bullets were fired, so that one

481
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: of the Vietnam was of course, you know, drugs, we're

482
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: being used more prevalently than in the battlefield. Indeed. Yeah,

483
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: and it's uh, it really at all. It all underlines

484
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: that like one of the challenges of training soldiers, and

485
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: really one of the inherent you know, monstrosities of of

486
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: warfare and and and military is that you have to

487
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: desynthesize soldiers to killing, and like how do you do that?

488
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: How do how what is the possible ethical framework for

489
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: pulling that off? And then you know, and then counting

490
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: on these individuals to reintegrate into society exactly. Uh, well,

491
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: so why don't we take a quick break and when

492
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: we come back, we can take a look at some

493
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: historical uses of drug in warfare UH and whether or

494
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: not those provided an opportunity for those soldiers to come

495
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: back into society. Everybody, it's getting to be that time

496
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: of the year where your to do list is gonna

497
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: seem like it is out of control. There is a

498
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: lot to do, and let's face it, not that much time.

499
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: But there's one thing that you can check off your

500
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: to do list, and that is going to the post office.

501
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: Thanks to stamps dot Com. With stamps dot com, by

502
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,080
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503
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504
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Speaker 1: scale and it automatically calculates the exact postage you need

505
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: for any letter or package or any class of mail.

506
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: You will never waste valuable time going to the post

507
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: office again. Just do everything right from your desk with

508
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: stamps dot Com, print the postage you need, put it

509
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: on your letter or package, then just hand it to

510
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: your mail carrier and do you are done. You know,

511
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: folks here and the how stuff works. Offices you stamps

512
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: dot com to send out UH correspondence bits of merchandise

513
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and right now we want you

514
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: to try it out as well. Sign up for stamps

515
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: dot com and use our promo code stuff that's stuff

516
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,480
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517
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: plus a hundred and ten dollar bonus software that includes

518
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: postage and a digital scale. So don't wait. Go to

519
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: stamps dot com before you do anything else. Click on

520
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: the microphone at the top of the homepage and type

521
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: in stuff that stamps dot com, enter stuff and start

522
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: mailing things. All right, we're back alright. So we've done

523
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: an episode before on Aconite also known as wolf Spain,

524
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: and we talked in that episode about how there were

525
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 1: legends of berserker warriors that would rub aconite on their

526
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: lips before they wouldental enter battle, which you know, if

527
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: you've listened to that episode, aconites extremely poisonous, but it

528
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: would like, you know, make their mouths foam. Uh, and

529
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: they were basically going to like a death berserker rage you,

530
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: making them more effective warriors and combat or at least scarier. Yeah,

531
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean you you see examples of of so called

532
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: berserkers in we see it in the Iliad. There are

533
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: accounts of berserking American soldiers. Um, there's a there's a

534
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: book by a psychiatrist, Jonathan Shay titled Achilles in Vietnam,

535
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: and he says, quote berserking American soldiers invariably shed their

536
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: helmets and their flat jackets. They had no other armor.

537
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: As one veteran said, got rid of my helmet, got

538
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: rid of my flat jacket. All I wanted to do

539
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: was kill um. That being said, the when we think

540
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: of berserkers, we tend to think of the Vikings. We

541
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: think of the norseman um. This is the classic idea,

542
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: the classic notion of the berserker warrior. So our modern

543
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: conception of Vikings is often a bit confused. There they

544
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: were far more fascinating and intricate uh culture and people

545
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: than we we often give credit to. I feel feel

546
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: like maybe in recent times it's gotten better. There's that

547
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Viking show that I think has little more nuanced to it.

548
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: You know, I was just thinking about that. I have

549
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: never watched that Vikings show. Um. But like one of

550
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: the things that's creeping up in the back of my

551
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: head while we're talking about this, and maybe you the

552
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: listener experiencing this too, is I keep thinking about like

553
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: all of the various forms of entertainment that we engage

554
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: in there about warfare, not just video games, but televisions whatever.

555
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: We keep coming back to. Yeah, and vikings hit me.

556
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones hit me, like even though that's this

557
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: big fantasy. Uh, I'll watch a game Game of Thrones

558
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: and they have those like big siege battles, like what

559
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: was the one they had, like a huge one recently,

560
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: Battle of the Bastards that was what it was called,

561
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: And people went nuts for it the next day, like,

562
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: oh my god, that was the best ever, you know.

563
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: And those were not soldiers who were shooting over each

564
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: other's heads, right, it was just this gory bloodfest. Um. So, anyways,

565
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: the Viking thing brought to mind. There's a comic book

566
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: actually that really recommend called Northlanders, and it's written by

567
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: Brian Wood, drawn by a variety of artists. But it's

568
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: an anthology book about Viking culture and it kind of

569
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: hops back and forth through different eras of Vikings in time,

570
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: showing you what it was actually like. It's like heavily

571
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: heavily research stuff, and I think it's a much more

572
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: nuanced look than some of the stuff we're seeing. Yeah,

573
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: because if you look back and you read some of

574
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: the old Viking sagas like these are intricate stories with

575
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: nuance and political entry. You know, it's not just a

576
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: bunch of barbarians running all over the place, because you

577
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: had on top of all that, either this was a globe.

578
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: They had globe spanning travel and trade. They had culture,

579
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: they had literature um and perhaps we can you know,

580
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: attribute some of this to a you know, a rather

581
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: outstanding and savage example of their war efforts. Not the

582
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: typical Viking warrior, but this special class a soldier known

583
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: as the berserker, so a berserker or a berserk. These

584
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: were again Norse warriors. They were sworn to and but

585
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: they believe themselves protected by the god Odin. In battle.

586
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: They engaged in pre battle rituals that allowed them to

587
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: enter into a frenzied state of supposed invulnerabilities, and they

588
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: were able to disregard pain and wounds. And they served

589
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: as shock troops. So these would be these would not

590
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: be your core uh soldiers. These would be the guys

591
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: that ran in first. They were they were unpredictable that

592
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: threw off your enemy and then came in the more

593
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: dedicated troops it's been theorized to get to the drug

594
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: angle here and theory. There are a few different theories

595
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: about what actually was going on with the berserkers. So

596
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: one is that they utilized a mix of mead, so

597
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: you had an alcohol and psychoactive hallucinogenic mushrooms, particularly the

598
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: hallucinogenic fly a Garrick mushroom, is a popular choice among

599
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: those who trying to figure out exactly what was going on. Others, however,

600
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: have theorized that this was was more of a just

601
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: a social exercise, not like the self induced groups stimuli

602
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: of a of a sports team, you know, getting rampship

603
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: of amped up in the locker room. Um. Also, you

604
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: know it could have been just the meat that they

605
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: were drinking. Uh, that's another possibility as well. But but

606
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's interesting to try and piece together exactly

607
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: what was going on here because it was said that

608
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: no iron could hurt them, that they charge and nothing

609
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: could withstand them. Again, they were unpredictable. They'd how they

610
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: bite their shields. Um. They wore only wolf skins and

611
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: were sometimes known to fight with a blade in each

612
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: hand without care for life. The wolf skin is another

613
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: Another possibility is that a lot of this could have

614
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: been sort of not not only amping up, but a

615
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: an animistic ritual where they start to believe themselves to

616
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: be more more beasts. We're talking about that in the

617
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: wolf Spaine episode that they're that that was part of it,

618
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: that they the association with wear wolves. Yeah, now it's

619
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: it's often said that that the berserker might attack friend

620
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: as well as foe because they couldn't tell them apart,

621
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: and therefore they were both admired and despised because they

622
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: only fulfilled half the Viking ethos. They were. They were brave, certainly,

623
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: but they weren't completely loyal to their fellow Norsemen, like

624
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: they couldn't be counted on in the same way you're

625
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to find to count on your

626
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: your your your Viking, your fellow Viking warrior. They weren't

627
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: wingmen right now. Another aspect here that's interesting to think

628
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: of in light of possible um psychoactive drugs, is that

629
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: allegedly they wouldn't remember the battle afterwards, and we're plagued

630
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: by a terrible fatigue in the days that followed on

631
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: that um And there's also there's another interesting theory and

632
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: This comes from the work of Jonathan Shay, the psychiatrist

633
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier, and that's that berserkers exhibited PTSD

634
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: that even in which is interesting because we think back

635
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: on Vikings and medieval war and it's easy to dismiss

636
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: it all and think, oh, well, just everyone was just

637
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: totally okay with the horrors of combat. Killing a bunch

638
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: of people a big deal. But Shay argues that, you know, what,

639
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: what are we looking at here? We're looking at states

640
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: of hyper arousal following depression, inactivity, emotional deadness, and vulnerability

641
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: to explosive rage um. And his argument is that you know,

642
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: we could be seeing some form of that here. So

643
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like it was a combination of organic chemistry

644
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: and psychological Uh. I guess like community, like a communal

645
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: experience psychologically that amped up their adrenaline. That's what I

646
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: would assume is like why they were able to ignore

647
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: blows and things like that was like they were so

648
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: full of adrenaline that they just kept going. Yeah. I mean,

649
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: you hear you hear accounts of of athletes where they

650
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: have an injury and they're able to keep going just

651
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: because they're all there. They're all amped up, you know.

652
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: The it's only afterwards they realized, oh wow, I really

653
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: injured myself out there, and maybe I shouldn't have kept

654
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: going that sort of thing. So there's that possibility now.

655
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: On the psychoactive properties here, I've always wondered about that, like, like,

656
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: what is the Is there really a combat advantage to

657
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: being high in mushrooms in battle? It seems like that

658
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: would ultimately be more of a detriment. So you and

659
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: I were sort of talking about this the other day,

660
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: and I thought about it a little bit more as

661
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: we were doing the research. I'd love to hear from

662
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: the listeners on this, because clearly I'm not an expert,

663
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: but based on what we've talked about, especially about treating

664
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: m d m A, right, it seems like the benefit

665
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: of psychoactive drugs is that it puts you into a

666
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: state that makes therapy easier, and in this case, like

667
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: in the m d m A case, it makes it

668
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: easier to treat PTSD. But I wonder if there's an

669
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: opposite manner in which you're you become more trusting, you

670
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: lose fear, and subsequently maybe you're more suggestible to being

671
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: a better warrior. Maybe Yeah, it's just I guess I'm

672
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: just so used to a the more sort of hippie

673
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: dippy interpretation of hallucinogenics. As well as having read plenty

674
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: of these accounts about, say, the use of psilocybin and

675
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: treating of various emotional and psychological problems, it just seems

676
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: like it's hard for me to to think about the

677
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: reverse of that and see how it would be helpful

678
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: that you're taking this magical property, unless it's just part

679
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: of believing one is magical. It helps if you have

680
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: a slightly tweaked reality. Now. The other possibility, too, is

681
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter what the fungus was because you're

682
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: mixing it with meat. And we do see plenty of

683
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 1: examples of people drinking to get themselves ready for violence,

684
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: getting too ready for combat of some form as well.

685
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: Um the in fact, we have this term Dutch courage.

686
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: Have you ever come across this? So that was a

687
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: new one from Boston? Okay, so that everybody talks about

688
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: Dutch courage? Ok? Yeah, but rely this can This is

689
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: reputed to have come from the Thirty Years War of

690
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: the seventeenth century. English soldiers depended on Dutch gin to

691
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: stay warm and to calm themselves before battle. Yeah yeah,

692
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: um yeah, I have unfortunately heard it a few too

693
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: many times before people got into fights. Yeah. Now another

694
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: one and our next spent a lot of time on

695
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: this one. But in our marijuana episodes we mentioned the

696
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: whole hasheesh assassin thing. Uh. And this was the idea

697
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: that you had, Hassana Saba again right, that whole mythology

698
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: slash history. Yeah, this is the idea that you had.

699
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: You had a sect of Islamic warriors fighting against the

700
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: Crusaders who engaged in ritual use of hasheesh before going

701
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: into battle. Um, which again sounds like yeah, yeah it does.

702
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: And and by all accounts like there doesn't seem to

703
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: be any real dated to back that up. The idea

704
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: that the dreaded uh um Hashasan lawyers imbued in hasheesh

705
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: uh seems to have come just from the Crusaders and

706
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: they had a vested interest in downplaying Muslim bravery. You

707
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. Oh, well, of course they're these

708
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: guys were good and good in combat. They had some

709
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: sort of you know, dark secret and some sort of

710
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: help from uh, from nefarious chemicals to pull it off. Huh.

711
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: And of course that's that kind of demonization of marijuana.

712
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: As we discussed, you would see that used later on

713
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: in the United States, you know, the reefer madness interpretation

714
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: of Oh, people are smoking dope and they're just going

715
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: crazy with assassins. Yeah, because really it's it's hard to

716
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: imagine from the yeah unless the one was I guess

717
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: taking it to sort of ease the yeah. Right, it's

718
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: like a tranquilizer desensitization. I guess. Um, I'd love, I'd love.

719
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: Maybe we should do like an episode just on that mythology.

720
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: And well, we've certainly done our marijuana episode, but um,

721
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: I would be curious to see if there's any research

722
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: out there about the effects of it in terms of aggression. Yeah, yeah,

723
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: that would be that would be a worthy deep dive

724
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: I think. Now, um, let's move on though, into those

725
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: who we've been talking about. You know, chemicals that might

726
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: somehow make you like a little crazier in combat or

727
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: more efficient in combat. Uh. Yeah, but really one of

728
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: the we keep coming back to one of the big calls,

729
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: uh that one of the big demands in in the

730
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 1: military is to simply keep everybody awake, keep everybody focused

731
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: in doing their job. And I guess in that sense,

732
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: like you know, squeeze more blood out of the stone,

733
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: it is. It is very much the focus. Like I

734
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: said earlier, you know, the the amount of money that

735
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: the Department of Defense spends on just this is huge. UM.

736
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: In one of the New York Times articles that we

737
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: looked at for research on this, the author research documents

738
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, by going through the Freedom

739
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: of Information Act, they found that the Department of Defenses

740
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: health care Services have written riddling and adderall prescriptions for

741
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: active duty service members. Uh, and that these there was

742
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: an increase in these by a thousand percent in five years.

743
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: So from two thousand five to two thousand ten it

744
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: went up a thousand percent. It originally was only three

745
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: thousand service members, and then in two thousand and ten

746
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: it was up to thirty two thousand service members. UM.

747
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: A spokesman attributed this is a military spokesman attributed this

748
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: sharp rise to the increased recognition and diagnosis of a

749
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: d h D by medical providers. Which you say, well,

750
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: that might be a good thing, um. And while that's true,

751
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: the author notes most of those diagnoses, though, are in children,

752
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: and adolescence. So is the military using stimulants to keep

753
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: troops alert and awake? They definitely are, we know are.

754
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: There's lots of evidence, but let's go through it. Uh,

755
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: starting with a historical example, which I understand, coffee was

756
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: apparently prevalent in the Civil War. So well, coffee, of

757
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: course is gonna it remains prevalent pretty much pretty touch

758
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: any military encounter you're talking about, and really, like so

759
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: many people's lives, like like, coffee is the thing that

760
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: wakes you up, keeps you focused, gives you that second there,

761
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: maybe even a fourth wind, until you just you know,

762
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: you can't think straight anymore. Um, yeah, I mean, because

763
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: after all, coffee is a psychoactive drug. Caffeine is a

764
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: psychoactive drug. Uh. And you know, despite the fact that

765
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: it's everywhere and it's just we're totally used to it,

766
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: it is a central nervous system stimulant um. It's and

767
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: if you're a coffee drinker like like us, you can

768
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: attest to it's the powerful encouragement and stamina that comes

769
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: with a strong cup of joke. Yeah. Yeah. In fact,

770
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: all right, maybe this is a bit of a side tangent,

771
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: but I understand that you tried for a while. What's

772
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: that thing called bullet the bulletproof coffeellet the coffee butter

773
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: in it? Yeah? Yeah, how'd that go? Um? I mean

774
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: it went well for me. I'm not gonna I'm that's

775
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: a whole separate podcast, I think to get into like

776
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: the claims made by people who who who pushed that

777
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: style of coffee versus what the research has to say

778
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: about it. My experience with it was positive in that

779
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: it it was kind of like having a you know,

780
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: a full meal at a cup of coffee. And then

781
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: then I wasn't like snacky. But as for any additional

782
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: or certainly sort of supernatural powers gained from it, I

783
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: would say they were not there. And then we ended

784
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: up just sort of phasing back into using just no

785
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: our normal coffee and smoothie practice in the morning. But

786
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: but but but still, it kind of comes back to

787
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: like if it was if it was successful, it's really

788
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: because that coffee was great. It's really because of the coffee.

789
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: Is uh is this powerful psychoactive studal And I imagine

790
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: putting butter in your coffee probably tastes good too. It

791
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: does Like some people like what would that taste like

792
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: it tastes great. It's really it's really rich. Anything it

793
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: tastes great. Yeah, don't be surprised when butter makes something

794
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: tastes good. But in terms of like caffeine's effects on troops,

795
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: you can't. You have to kind of go back to

796
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: a time when caffeine was was used by everybody, but

797
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: maybe it was in short supply, or supply was uncertain,

798
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: or in some state of flux. And that's what we

799
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: find if we look at the Civil War, the American

800
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: Civil War. So author John Grinspan has a wonderful New

801
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: York Times article titled How Coffee Fueled the Civil War.

802
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 1: It was published in two thousand fourteen and still out there.

803
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: It's a great read. It paints paints a fascinating picture

804
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: of caffeine consumption during that conflict. So it turns out

805
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: that the Union army absolutely depended on coffee. It was

806
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: their their nerve, tonic, it was their sustainer soldiers attributed

807
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: to their survival, their drive, and their ability to carry on. Uh.

808
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: There's a there's even a general, General Benjamin Butler. He

809
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: considered it a decisive srategic factor. He told another general

810
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: before battle in October of eighteen sixty four. Quote, if

811
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: your men get their coffee early in the morning, you

812
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: can hold meaning meaning if you can, if you can

813
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: get them their coffee, if they can have their coffee

814
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: in the morning, Yeah, you might. We might win this encounter.

815
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: You're gonna be all right that it's going to be

816
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: the decider. The Confederates, however, they weren't so lucky. Coffee

817
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: shortages plagued them. One British observer stated that it quote

818
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: afflicts the Confederates even more than the loss of spirits

819
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: or alcohol. Um. Still, Union troops sound a bit like

820
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: caffeine junkies uh in in Grinspan's article, just rampaging across

821
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: the landscape like something out of a Cormac McCarthy novel.

822
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: Here's my favorite quote from the article. Quote. Union troops

823
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 1: made their coffee everywhere and with everything, with water from

824
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: canteens and puddles, brackish bays and Mississippi mud liquid their

825
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: horses would not drink. They cooked it over fires of

826
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: plundered fence rails or heated mugs and scalding steam vents

827
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: on naval gun boats. When times were good, coffee accompanied

828
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: beef steaks and oysters. When they were bad, it washed

829
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,479
Speaker 1: down raw salt pork and maggoty hardtack. Coffee was often

830
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: the last comfort troops enjoyed before entering battle and the

831
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: first sign of safety for those who survived. I don't

832
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: know about you, but like there's just something about like

833
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: a good paragraph like that about food. Even when even

834
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: the word maggoty hard attack, I kind of go, that

835
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: sounds good. Well, you know, it's like, like I said,

836
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: even though most of us don't know what it's like

837
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: to engage in life or death combat, we know what

838
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: it's like to have a good cup of coffee to

839
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: have a bad cup of coffee. And the reason I

840
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: ended up researching this was because I ran across this

841
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: thing called the Essence of Coffee, which was a horrible,

842
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: by most accounts, horrible industrialized coffee product that came out

843
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 1: during the Civil War that was essentially evaporated coffee, complete

844
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: with milk and sugar, and everyone just described it as

845
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: this thick brown sludge is obnoxious black grease, and the

846
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: Union troops just have I'm just picturing like the worst

847
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 1: folders ever. Yeah, my grandmother, the way she drinks coffee,

848
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: she takes folgers out of the can, pours it like,

849
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: just dumps it into a cup, adds water, and puts

850
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: it in the microwave and then drinks it black like that.

851
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: And she's nineties six years old, as hard as nails.

852
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: But maybe that's where she picked it up from. But

853
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: at any rate, that, I think the use of coffee

854
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: in the Civil War, like some ex antidotes here, it

855
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: does help to sort of drive home just how how

856
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: much of a game changer having that coffee can be. Like, No,

857
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,760
Speaker 1: nobody's arguing that the coffee is the reason the Union

858
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: army one. But certainly they had access to coffee and

859
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: that and and along with that, they had access to

860
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: various other uh comforts and provisions that helped help give

861
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: them the overall advantage. Well, like you said, I mean

862
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: it's a um, every little advantage helps, right, And like again,

863
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: like if we're gonna keep using this character sheet metaphor,

864
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 1: it's like there's a plus one in some column every

865
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: time you have a cup of coffee, whereas these Confederate

866
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: soldiers they weren't having coffee, so they had like maybe

867
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: a negative two to dexterity. Uh Okay, So this is

868
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: something that I was wondering, let's get into the amphetamines use,

869
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: which is incredibly prevalent today and has actually been for

870
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: you know, a good while in the last century of warfare. UM.

871
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: But I kept thinking while I was here, I was like,

872
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: why don't they just drink a lot of coffee? Uh?

873
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I haven't taken that many amphetamines, but

874
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: they are certainly far and above what you would get

875
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: out of about. Yeah. There there's coffee, and then there

876
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: is and then there's metamine stuff like adderall where it's Um,

877
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: it's a if one is like a mild sharpening of

878
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: the blade. The other is is it is a more

879
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: intense like razor edge to it. I guess yeah. I

880
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: kept thinking to myself, I'm like, why don't these pilots

881
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: just get like a curig machine and their planes or something,

882
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, they wouldn't have to have these strong side effects.

883
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: And so that's actually what's been going on. The U. S.

884
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: Military has been making use of amphetamines since World War Two.

885
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: UM Pilots in the American military are taking speed, usually

886
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: amphetamines to enhance their performance. Military officials believe this is

887
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: necessary to keep them alert and focused, especially on long

888
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: range bombing missions. We talked about about those at the top.

889
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: These are where they're flying for up to nine hours

890
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: or more and it despite the potential side effects of hypertension, depression,

891
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: and addiction, they still do it. Now. Usually what they're

892
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: taking is decks adrene uh and it's part of a

893
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: cycle where they take the speed for missions to fight fatigue.

894
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: Then they take sedatives so they can get back to sleep.

895
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: So they're referred to as go pills or no go pills.

896
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: And to clarify, these are legal in the military. The

897
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: pilots are not required to take them, but you know

898
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: it helps on the missions. If they need them, they're available.

899
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: No go pills include ambient just to give you an

900
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: idea of what they're taking. Some some of them are

901
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: also hypnotics from what I understand, well, mamban is can

902
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: certainly have modly hypnotics. Yeah, yeah, uh So. The article

903
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: that I looked at that gave me a lot of

904
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: information on this was from Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine

905
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: was published and it's called Fatigue and Stimulant Use in

906
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: Military fighter aircrew during combat operations. So the authors their

907
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: concern was that most of the studies that looked at

908
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: stimulant use and soldiers. We're looking at sleep deprived military

909
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: aviation that they were in situations that were totally under control. Right,

910
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: It was just based on lab conditions essentially. Uh. So

911
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: they were wondering, well, what happens when you're in combat?

912
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: What happens when you throw variables at these pilots. So

913
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: they asked twenty nine f one on five E aircrew

914
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: participants to fill out a survey after their active combat operations,

915
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: and it was about their drug use, their fatigue, the

916
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: physical symptoms that they had, and so on. And they

917
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: found that stimulants were used thirty five percent of the time,

918
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: so not as much as we would think, but you

919
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: know it's there. Uh. On average they were taking about

920
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: three hours after takeoff. They concluded that the drugs decreased

921
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: fatigue without significant post flights symptoms. I just want to

922
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: pause and take a second, Like when I was reading

923
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: this article, it didn't really seem to adequately address the

924
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: variables that they were concerned with about combat, And they

925
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: themselves said at the end of the article, look, we

926
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: understand there's limitations to this. There needs to be more

927
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: research done. Um nor does self reporting seem like the

928
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: ideal way to get to the bottom of of you know,

929
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: how the use is done uh and and what its

930
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: effects are and whether or not there they have negative

931
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: post flights emptoms. Another measure that came out of this

932
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: we hadn't really heard of yet. In between missions, these

933
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: hypnotic medications I referred to those are being used to

934
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: induce and improved sleep. They also found that the reason

935
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: that pilots were using the stimulants were because their circadium

936
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: rhythm was broken, like maybe they had been woken up

937
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night or something like that,

938
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: or they were on long flights like we described earlier,

939
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: or they were trying to get off of the effects

940
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: of the pre flight hypnotic meds that they had taken.

941
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: So these guys might have taken ambient or something like that,

942
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: been woken up and then it was like, we need

943
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: you to fly and do a mission right now, and

944
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: so they take dexadrine immediately afterwards to try to counteract

945
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: the effects of the hypnotic medications. So, as you might imagine,

946
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: this isn't without controversy, despite being practiced for decades. In

947
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: two thousand two, there was an incident. A lot of

948
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: you may have heard of this too. Air National Guard

949
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: pilot bombed and killed four Canadian soldiers by accident, and

950
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: the speculation was was that they had taken dexadrine had

951
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: impaired their judgment. Likewise, an Air Force investigation in found

952
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: that there was a crash that killed four special operators

953
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,720
Speaker 1: and that that might have been caused by the pilot

954
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: using ambient. So there's some concern about this whether incidents

955
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: like that will repeat themselves. And then again, you know addiction.

956
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: You know, like, once these guys are done, what what

957
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: is this doing to their sleep cycles, to their personalities, etcetera.

958
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a like the no go and

959
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: go pills, the back and forth and adding hot water

960
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: because the paths too cold, and then adding cold because

961
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: it's too hot. You know, you're running the risk of

962
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: overflowing the bath at some point totally. So here's the

963
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: big problem. Though stimulants actually strengthen learning and memory formation.

964
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: This works the same way when we form long lasting

965
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: memories from our strong emotional experiences. So this is the

966
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: big problem. These stimulants could be increasing the risk of

967
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: soldiers getting PTSD because their pathologically forming memories while the

968
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: drugs are in their system of horrible scenarios. Um So,

969
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: just to recap, because we've talked about this a lot

970
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 1: on the show, stimulants release neuro epineffern in our brains,

971
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: potentially enhancing our emotional memory and research into this. Do

972
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: you remember on our Creepy Post episode that we did

973
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: two weeks ago about the SCP we talked a lot

974
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 1: about chemicals and memories. Well, there's lots of ways chemicals

975
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: can form or erase memories. More neuro epineffrin enhances our memory,

976
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: but if you add propran and al in you can

977
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 1: block that impairing emotional memory. Remember we talked about rats

978
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 1: in that episode. When you tested them, uh, and you'd

979
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: give them propran and all, they would forget about electric

980
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 1: traps and a maze and get electrocuted all over again.

981
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: So all of this leads us to the drugs that

982
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 1: are used to help soldiers with PTSD. But also keep

983
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 1: in mind some of these drugs might be contributing to PTSD.

984
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break and when we get back,

985
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: let's really get into the chemistry that's being used to

986
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 1: treat PTSD. Hi, I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson,

987
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 1: and we're the co host of Stuff You Missed in

988
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 1: History Class. We are a history podcast that tries to

989
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: look at the things that maybe we're overlooked in your

990
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: history classes, maybe not covered in as much detail, or frankly,

991
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: maybe covered in a way that was not accurate. New

992
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: episodes come out every Monday and Wednesday on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify,

993
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: or anywhere else that podcasts can be listened to. All right,

994
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: we're back. So we already mentioned some of the more

995
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: like near future forms of DSD treatment, but in terms

996
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: of actual medications that are used right now to aid

997
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: the treatment of PTSD, basically everything, it can be divided

998
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: into three categories. So, first of all, antidepressants. These are

999
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: of course medications that help symptoms of depression and anxiety,

1000
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: and they can also and help improve sleep problems and concentration. UM,

1001
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: so we're talking about selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or s

1002
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: s r I medications, and the big ones here are

1003
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:31,919
Speaker 1: Zoloft and paxel. Uh. Then there are more dedicated anti

1004
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: anxiety medications and either drugs that can improve feelings of

1005
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: anxiety or in stress for a short time to relieve

1006
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: severe anxiety and related problems. And because these medications have

1007
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: the potential for abuse, they're not usually taking long term,

1008
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: and so they're their whole host of of anti anxiety medications. UH,

1009
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: they fall into that category. And then another frequently used

1010
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: medication is a drug called praso sin or mini press,

1011
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: and this is if if symptoms include insomnia or recurrent nightmares. UH,

1012
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: this can potentially help. Although it's not spec specifically FDA

1013
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: approved for PTSD treatment, UM, it may reduce or suppress

1014
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: nightmares in many people with PTSD. Yeah, and we have

1015
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: talked about, like I said, you know, we've had a

1016
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: couple episodes where we this is one of those topics

1017
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: that stuff to blow your mind. I think, circles around again,

1018
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: over and over. Uh. We are interested in it, but

1019
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: it's also connected to a lot of different themes and

1020
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: topics that are interested in. UM. So one thing that's

1021
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: come up is beta blockers. They've blocked the effects of

1022
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: neuro epineffer and that's the propran and all I was

1023
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. They've basically stopped fear conditioning. UH. In

1024
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: two thousand, to a psychiatrist named Roger Pittman. He was

1025
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: from Harvard Medical School, and he led a study where

1026
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: they randomly assigned emergency room patients either with a beta

1027
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: blocker like propran and all or with the placebo. And

1028
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: this was within six hours of experiencing a traumatic event.

1029
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: After a month, they went back to these subjects and

1030
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: they said, those of you that took the beta blockers,

1031
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: what's going on? They gave him a survey questionnaire interviews. Uh,

1032
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: these people felt significantly fewer symptoms of PTSD based on

1033
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: their emergency room event than the subjects who had not.

1034
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: So and and you know, go back and listen to

1035
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: that SCP episode. There's been lots of research in the

1036
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: beta blockers in memory. Uh. We also have done an

1037
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: episode as I referred to earlier on M D m A.

1038
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: See see that for a real deep dive. But M

1039
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: d m A trials have been used to help survivors

1040
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: by increasing their trust and decreasing their fear in therapy.

1041
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: There is a lot of other options. Like you mentioned,

1042
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: you guys talked about tetris on another episode. Yeah, and uh,

1043
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: and I encourage people don't go back and listen to

1044
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: that episode if you want more. But Like the basic

1045
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: idea is interrupting the formation and in the hard coding

1046
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: of traumatic memories. Like the simple version would be something

1047
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: traumatic happens play Tetris because because Tetris is an example

1048
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: of a game, an excellent example of a game that

1049
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: has an ability to, uh to interfere with the formation

1050
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: of those traumatic memories. Yeah, okay, So then the big

1051
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: question then is are there drugs And you know, we

1052
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit earlier, but other drugs

1053
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: that make killing easier sort of the opposite of this

1054
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: PTSD thing. We've we've talked about some historical examples through

1055
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: this episode, but yeah, I wonder if it's something that's

1056
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: currently being developed, especially when I think about that Black

1057
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: Mirror episode, because we've already established that, like like fixing

1058
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: the soldier, addressing the mental health concerns that occur after

1059
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: engaging in in this kind of combat, like those are

1060
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 1: costly those uh, not only in terms of dollars, but

1061
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: in lives like this is it's a major issue. Uh,

1062
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: you get into weird ethical waters, to say the least,

1063
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 1: when you start saying, well, what have we fixed it?

1064
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: On the other end, what have we just made it

1065
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: more okay with killing, but then what are the what

1066
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: are the long I mean the long term effects there

1067
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: are potentially even more monstrous. Yeah, it does seem horrific

1068
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: to me, and I just I can't imagine it. It's funny.

1069
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: So for this episode, I watched that Black Mirror episode

1070
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: that we keep referring to, and now I can't think

1071
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: of it except for outside of Um. Okay, let's go ahead.

1072
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and enter. We can enter into a

1073
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: spoiler zone for that episode if you if you haven't

1074
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 1: seen it, uh, and and when wished to see it,

1075
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: go see it and then come back and check out

1076
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: the end of this episode. Uh. But for the rest

1077
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: of you will go ahead and press on without without

1078
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: fear of spoilers. For Men against Fire. Yeah, so this

1079
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: episode is called Men against Fire. Uh. And the essential

1080
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: premises that they have what would you call it, like

1081
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: a like an implant, a brain plant. Yeah. I think

1082
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: that there are a few key technologies that are going

1083
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: on there, some sort of a brain implant um a

1084
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: a of contact lens that alters their visual perception. And

1085
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: then there's also dream management software, dream intervention software that's

1086
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: part of it that's controlling their dreams, pushing down traumatic nightmares,

1087
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: and even rewarding them with particularly pleasant sexual dreams. Yeah.

1088
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: And so all of this is revealed masterfully over the

1089
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 1: course of the episode, very slowly. Uh. The ultimate reveal

1090
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: is that you think that these soldiers have been fighting

1091
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: like they call them roaches. You think they've been fighting

1092
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: like I don't know, vampires. Do You think they're must first,

1093
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: because there's a there's a eugenics vibe going on there.

1094
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: The enemy is genetically inferior and fighting them is important

1095
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: for the future. Uh. And and you see these monsters.

1096
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: You see like a firefight, and there they fight these monsters.

1097
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: And then uh, essentially throughout the course of the episode,

1098
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: one of the soldiers implants stops working and he sees

1099
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: that they're actually just people, but the implants are making

1100
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: it so that he and the other soldiers see them.

1101
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: They literally demonize the opposition so that it's easier to

1102
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: kill them, and it it uh influences their sensory systems

1103
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: to like so that they're not smelling blood or they're

1104
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: not hearing the screams of the people they're killing. Um.

1105
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: All this to the end of subsequently making it easier

1106
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: for them to to kill the enemy. And now I now,

1107
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: as a good Black Mirror episode does, I can't help

1108
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: but think about this idea in those terms hard time

1109
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: thinking about like a medication or chemistry. I didn't really

1110
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: find a whole lot that that would actually do this.

1111
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: The US Special Operations does have a memo that I

1112
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: read about outlines technology objectives that look to what are

1113
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 1: they say, quote ergogenic substance says to manage environmentally and

1114
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: mentally induced stress um. So they're basically looking at this

1115
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: as a way to and uh manage stress in the

1116
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: battlefield rather than after the battle. So I guess that

1117
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: would be somewhat similar. But I think this is like

1118
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: a whole another level. Yeah, I think that what we

1119
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: see in the episode kind of represents the long term

1120
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: fear that anxiety about like tinkering with these things, because

1121
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: for those soldiers, not only are they they tinkering with

1122
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: their perceptions of the battle and of war and of

1123
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: violence and of killing in war, they're also tinkering with

1124
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: their reward system. Like the final scene in the episode

1125
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,439
Speaker 1: is him returning home and he doesn't see his home

1126
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: for this ruined shell that it is, and he and

1127
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 1: in fact he sees the woman of his dream on

1128
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 1: the porch waiting for him, there's actually nobody there. Um,

1129
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, what when you start war is you know,

1130
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: it's it's it's part of human history and human culture.

1131
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: It's impossible separate war from who we are in many respects.

1132
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: And yet, as we've already established, like, war is not

1133
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: a natural thing for us. It is a traumatic experience,

1134
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 1: it's a it's a horrifying thing. And if we start

1135
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: trying to change who we are for war, uh, you know,

1136
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: what are the end results? What are the ramifications there? Yeah?

1137
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: It is obviously, like even beyond what we talked about

1138
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: earlier with the ethical implications related to the side effects

1139
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 1: of all of these different medications and narcotics and drugs

1140
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: for soldier use in battle, this one, most of all,

1141
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: seems to have a real philosophical like question mark over it,

1142
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: which is kind of like should we even do this?

1143
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: Like is it moral? Um? I think we covered Black Mirror? Yeah, yeah,

1144
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: I think so. All right, So if you want to

1145
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: come back in, we're no longer gonna talk about Black Mirror.

1146
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: Let's close out. And I just want to say that

1147
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 1: based on the above of everything that we've talked about

1148
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: this episode. Some have proposed that there should be four

1149
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: ethical criteria for the use of drugs in the military,

1150
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: and and and these are the criteria. I don't know.

1151
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe these would work, maybe they wouldn't. The first

1152
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: one would be that the use must be voluntary, and

1153
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: that seems to be the case with dexadrine, right, like

1154
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: they choose to use. That sounds like a good idea.

1155
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: At the same time, though, I mean, you have situations

1156
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: where still where individuals can still be drafted into militaries.

1157
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 1: Uh so if there's if there's a possibility for a draft,

1158
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,439
Speaker 1: it seems kind of ridiculous for like, you get into

1159
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: whole questions about why why do I have a choice

1160
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: in this matter? But I don't have a choice serving

1161
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: in the military to begin with. Absolutely, That's that's the

1162
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 1: whole candle worms itself. The second criteria would be that

1163
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: the medication must be safe. H third is that it's

1164
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: use must be in accord with medical standards. Those two

1165
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: are kind of connected. And the fourth is that alternative

1166
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: measures must be utilized first. So I guess in the

1167
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: example of dexadrine, it's kind of like what I was

1168
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: joking about earlier, like how many cups of coffee can

1169
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: these guys have on a nine hour flight? Before there?

1170
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: You know, it no longer works as an alternative. They've

1171
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: got to take dexadrine or else they're gonna you know,

1172
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 1: bomb the wrong location or something. Um, So I would

1173
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: just bring this back to what we talked about the beginning.

1174
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: Remember that soldiers aren't machines, and the ideal here is

1175
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: that they will will want to return to civilian life.

1176
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:43,480
Speaker 1: So maybe there should be some kind of ethical principles

1177
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: in play regarding whether it's dietary supplements or or drugs

1178
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: or even you know, if we jump into the sci

1179
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: fi scenario of some technological implants or something, what the

1180
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: long term effects of that are going to be. Yeah,

1181
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: And I think in general, like just in and this

1182
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: is me speaking, but as far as military use in general,

1183
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: I I love that fourth ethical criteria. Alternative measures must

1184
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: be utilized first, and I think the more we explore that,

1185
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: the better off will be. Yeah. Well, I mean, given

1186
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: how much money the Department of Defense is spending on this,

1187
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: I would imagine they're exploring every avenue that's available. So

1188
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: we'll see, we'll see how this evolves. In the future.

1189
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: I'm curious though, Uh you are, audience. I know a

1190
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 1: lot of you out there have experience with PTSD or

1191
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 1: family members who have um gone to war come back

1192
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: from war. Uh so what's your take on all of this?

1193
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: Like the better living through chemistry for a warrior? How

1194
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 1: how how should we approach that going forward in the future. Uh? Well,

1195
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: you can let us know. First of all, visit us

1196
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 1: on stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. You're gonna

1197
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: find all our social media channels there, Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, Instagram,

1198
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: et cetera. Uh, those are all great ways to get

1199
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: in touch with us let us know what you think.

1200
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 1: You can also find all the stuff that we put

1201
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 1: out on a regular basis, podcast, videos, articles, you name it.

1202
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: Those are all on Stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com. Yeah,

1203
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,600
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1204
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: the old facton way, if you just want to send

1205
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 1: us an email, you can email us at blow the

1206
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff Works dot com. Well more on

1207
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff

1208
01:09:38,040 --> 01:10:01,000
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