Speaker 1: It's springtime in Minneapolis, my hometown. The snow is melting
Speaker 1: on a lot of signages on display, signs posted on
Speaker 1: people's lawns, taped to their windows, attacked to their doors,
Speaker 1: and one of the most popular reads, hate has no
Speaker 1: home here. Maybe you've seen that sign too. There's an
Speaker 1: online map full of pins where they've been spotted, from
Speaker 1: South Korea to Somalia. That sign campaign, started in two
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen by a group of neighbors in Chicago, means
Speaker 1: to resist bigotry and to extend kindness to people on
Speaker 1: the margins of our society, and the spirit of the
Speaker 1: sign is unimpeachable. But the literalist in me wonders what
Speaker 1: that phrase really means, Like do the people who live
Speaker 1: in those houses permit themselves to hate a concept like bigotry?
Speaker 1: Late at night over drinks with friends, would they admit
Speaker 1: to hating extremists of the opposing party? Are we allowed
Speaker 1: to hate hate groups? This is deeply human The show
Speaker 1: about why you do what you do I'm Dessa host
Speaker 1: and fellow human being often overwhelmed by the victual and
Speaker 1: violence on the news and in the social feeds. So
Speaker 1: the question to jure is how does hurt or anger
Speaker 1: metastasize into hatred? Why do we hate one another? And
Speaker 1: how can we stop? Also, even though the topic is
Speaker 1: necessarily heavy, I promise this isn't a lay face down
Speaker 1: on the carpet, because why even try any more kind
Speaker 1: of episode? Even the dark stuff needs a little light.
Speaker 1: When did kids start saying I hate you? Probably those
Speaker 1: words would come out either just before or just after
Speaker 1: three years old. That is Emma Carlson who goes by
Speaker 1: M she's a clinical therapist who works with kids and adolescence.
Speaker 1: The word hate may come out because they don't have
Speaker 1: any other language for it. Their vocabulary is so limited.
Speaker 1: You have a four year old, I do? Have you
Speaker 1: heard it? Oh? Yes? She was very, very ticked off
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't let her jump off of her bed
Speaker 1: onto the floor she was living. You know, my sweet, kind,
Speaker 1: empathic little person just became this ball of rage that
Speaker 1: would cry at the drop of a hat and would
Speaker 1: throw a tantrum over what I would consider next to nothing,
Speaker 1: Such big emotions coming out of this tiny, tiny body,
Speaker 1: and she would go I hate you, And then like
Speaker 1: does the clinical part of you know, like, ah, this
Speaker 1: is just simply, you know, a child struggling with verbal
Speaker 1: skills to express frustration. Absolutely, and like my head notes that,
Speaker 1: but my heart was breaking. Everything that I had, you know,
Speaker 1: thought I had dealt with about my relationship with my
Speaker 1: mom just became completely unearthed. And it was the catastrophic
Speaker 1: thinking of, Okay, she hates me. Now it is just
Speaker 1: going to get worse. The thing is, M does hate
Speaker 1: her own mom, or at least she did for a
Speaker 1: big part of her life, and so hearing that word
Speaker 1: from her daughter delivered more than the standard jolt of pain.
Speaker 1: We'll come back to M and her trials with her
Speaker 1: own mom, but let's switch gears for a minute. Most
Speaker 1: of us, if we're lucky, don't feel hatred towards members
Speaker 1: of our immediate family. The place we might be most
Speaker 1: likely to encounter hatred his online, and you might be thinking, well,
Speaker 1: on social media, hate's gonna hate. That's just part of
Speaker 1: the deal. But global agencies are taking it seriously. The
Speaker 1: United Nations called for a regulation of hate speech on
Speaker 1: social media, as the recipient hate online feels like bedbugs
Speaker 1: of the mind, and when you are not around them,
Speaker 1: you kind of still feel them crawling in your head.
Speaker 1: That's Dylan Marrin, who I met as an actor. He's
Speaker 1: tall and slim, thoughtful on a goofy with a signature
Speaker 1: flop of dark curls. And in the years since we met,
Speaker 1: he's become known as a cultural critic, particularly for a
Speaker 1: series of online videos that championed progressive causes so GLBT rights,
Speaker 1: media representation, feminism, and some of his stuff has gone viral,
Speaker 1: like viral, viral viral. People who say it doesn't exist
Speaker 1: are full of today. I'm on boxing, police brutality, the
Speaker 1: two biggest videos. I think we're like fifteen twenty million.
Speaker 1: The higher his star rows, the spici or the comments
Speaker 1: section got, people who disagreed with the ideas in Dylan's
Speaker 1: videos started writing some really, really foul stuff about him online.
Speaker 1: He created a file on his computer called the hate
Speaker 1: folder where he keeps screenshots. Let's see, uh, you are
Speaker 1: cancer and another person said, please decapitate yourself. I remember
Speaker 1: one person wrote that they wanted to hear the sound
Speaker 1: of my septum crushing under their fist. Was there some
Speaker 1: part of you that celebrated the haters because it meant
Speaker 1: that you were touching a nerve, or that you're doing
Speaker 1: something important. Oh my god. Yeah. The first time that
Speaker 1: I started getting it, I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like I I can't believe like I matter enough to
Speaker 1: be hated. If you're going to speak truth to power,
Speaker 1: you gotta brace for blowback. And for a second it
Speaker 1: was easy to ride pretty high on that buzz of righteousness.
Speaker 1: Both of these things are true at the same time, right,
Speaker 1: it is incredibly psychologically damaging, and also I felt that
Speaker 1: they were proof of my power. You are just like
Speaker 1: I am, the king of the world. Over time, Dylan
Speaker 1: started to believe that, in an important way, social platforms
Speaker 1: were bringing out the very worst people people, including himself.
Speaker 1: The most negative thing you can write, which is also
Speaker 1: confusingly and dangerously sometimes the funniest thing that you can write,
Speaker 1: that is easiest to upvote, because hyperbole and intensity is
Speaker 1: what cuts through online. Dylan recently wrote a book about
Speaker 1: his experience, and I read it on a plane, nodding
Speaker 1: athletically for much of the ride. As an indie musician,
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of my time online more than
Speaker 1: I would like, promoting tours or albums, and I've seen
Speaker 1: how a clever diss rises like a hot air balloon.
Speaker 1: Over more nuanced perspectives. And I too have screenshot at
Speaker 1: hateful messages where people question my gender or call me
Speaker 1: names you can't say on the radio, and I fixated
Speaker 1: on those words. I've lost sleep more of them. I've
Speaker 1: carried mace, afraid somebody might bring that aggression to the
Speaker 1: world outside the screen. And the way that my friends
Speaker 1: tried to comfort me sounds a lot like the way
Speaker 1: that Dylan's friends tried to comfort him. Forget them. They're
Speaker 1: just sad, lonely guys who live in their mother's basement.
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, first of all, if they're sad,
Speaker 1: I too feel sad many times. If they live in
Speaker 1: their mother's basement, I also lived with my mom for
Speaker 1: a long time post college. Like I get it, you know,
Speaker 1: like that's relatable to me. One night, Dylan started clicking
Speaker 1: through the profile of a guy named Josh, who had
Speaker 1: written to tell him that being gay is a sin
Speaker 1: and also that Dylan is a moron. But sifting through
Speaker 1: Josh's posts humanized him. For Dylan, it really is like
Speaker 1: sending a hate letter and then paper clipping, you know,
Speaker 1: photos from your family reunion, a partial family tree, and
Speaker 1: your resume as you send it. There was one post
Speaker 1: where he talked about being alone on a Friday night.
Speaker 1: There were so many posts he made about like crying
Speaker 1: at a movie, about feeling alone and wanting to hang
Speaker 1: out with someone, and I just saw myself reflected in him.
Speaker 1: Almost on impulse, Dylan reached out to Josh, who was
Speaker 1: a senior in high school and having a pretty horrible
Speaker 1: time of it. I was just angry about it all.
Speaker 1: It was just a lot of it was a build
Speaker 1: up of all your multiple videos you made of Dylan
Speaker 1: offered that he'd been bullied in high school too. Josh
Speaker 1: had a lot of family and law enforcement, and a
Speaker 1: video that Dylan had made about police brutality had pushed
Speaker 1: a tender spot. How do you feel that people like
Speaker 1: you and me can have productive conversations. I think that
Speaker 1: if you're trying to have a conversation with someone that's
Speaker 1: completely different than you, then take everything away that makes
Speaker 1: us different. In the conversation was not a total kumba
Speaker 1: yah full of tearful epiphanies, but it was a conversation,
Speaker 1: and Josh apologized. It was a person who was like,
Speaker 1: this is who I am, and I'm really sorry that
Speaker 1: I hurt you. Dylan went on to have lots and
Speaker 1: lots of conversations with people who have written awful things
Speaker 1: about him, and he just published a book about what
Speaker 1: he's learned. It's called Conversations with People who Hate Me.
Speaker 1: That's the one I read on the plane. And his
Speaker 1: takeaway from all these exchanges. Our tendency to write people off,
Speaker 1: to dismiss haters as trolls. It's just fundamentally flawed. It
Speaker 1: is this fantasy we tell ourselves that the people who
Speaker 1: write negative things online are one type of person, and
Speaker 1: the word troll evokes this image of this distant monster
Speaker 1: who lives under a bridge, and we are the good
Speaker 1: and noble townspeople who are tortured by this monster. As
Speaker 1: Dylan writes, their entire lives are not built around tormenting
Speaker 1: the villagers. On the contrary, they are fellow villagers. We're
Speaker 1: often really eager to recognize other people as haters, but
Speaker 1: real slow to name that impulse in ourselves. That's documented
Speaker 1: in formal psychological surveys too. When asked if they hate anyone,
Speaker 1: most people say no, but a significant number of people
Speaker 1: say they've been subject to hate. However, that pattern doesn't
Speaker 1: hold in communities that have been locked in long term
Speaker 1: violent conflict. In that context, some people will announce flat
Speaker 1: out that they just hate the other side. I served
Speaker 1: as an officer in especially unit in the in the
Speaker 1: Israeli Army. It's mandatory in Israel, so everyone is serving
Speaker 1: in the army, and twenty four years ago I was
Speaker 1: very very seriously injured in Lebanon in a fight with
Speaker 1: Bah soldiers. I was hospitalized for for a very long time,
Speaker 1: for almost four years. Both of my hands were paralyzed
Speaker 1: for a very long time. They weren't functioning. That is
Speaker 1: around helper and professor of social psychology at the Hebrew
Speaker 1: University in Jerusalem in Israel. He now studies the psychology
Speaker 1: at play in long term intergroup conflicts like the one
Speaker 1: that's plagued the region he was born into, the one
Speaker 1: that's consumed generations of Palestinians and Israelis. And the questions
Speaker 1: that have motivated his life's work are the same ones
Speaker 1: that came to him as healing injured in a hospital bed.
Speaker 1: You really have a lot of time to think do
Speaker 1: we have to be in this situation? There must be
Speaker 1: something that we can do. People don't want to keep
Speaker 1: on hurting each other and killing each other? Why do
Speaker 1: people hate? Ran spends his time trying to find out
Speaker 1: what hate is, exactly how it works, and how it
Speaker 1: might be stopped. I don't see hatred as an extreme
Speaker 1: version of any other emotion. I don't think that hatred
Speaker 1: is an extreme version of dislike. I don't think that
Speaker 1: it's an extreme version of anger. Ran doesn't use the
Speaker 1: term in the same way that we do casually, the
Speaker 1: way we might hate lima beans or the nasal whining
Speaker 1: of a particular up star. That stuff wouldn't qualify. If
Speaker 1: I feel hate, I don't hate the action that this
Speaker 1: person did. I hate the person it set. They did
Speaker 1: something wrong, and they did it because you know this
Speaker 1: is who they are. It's in their nature or character
Speaker 1: or culture, and this can never be can never be changed.
Speaker 1: You might be angry at someone for stealing from you,
Speaker 1: or you might hate them for being an irredeemable thief,
Speaker 1: and it runs work. To hate another person or group
Speaker 1: is to perceive them as intrinsically bad or evil, a
Speaker 1: threat to you or those you care about. Are there
Speaker 1: certain personal characteristics that makes some people more prone to
Speaker 1: hatred than other people? Definitely, people who hate are people
Speaker 1: that cannot tolerate ambiguity or complexity, and for them it's
Speaker 1: much much easier and in many many ways also addresses
Speaker 1: their like psychological needs to somehow see the world as
Speaker 1: you know, black versus why, the good versus the people.
Speaker 1: Addan has spent his adult life trying to understand hatred
Speaker 1: and quantifiable terms, analyzing data and looking for trend lines.
Speaker 1: M the therapist we spoke to earlier, spent many years
Speaker 1: sorting through the messiness of her own personal hate before
Speaker 1: she started working in clinical terms. The relationship with her
Speaker 1: mother had been difficult for a long time. M's mom
Speaker 1: had berated her since she was little, but there was
Speaker 1: a specific moment when all that strife jelled into something stronger.
Speaker 1: My mom had stayed home from work, which was happening
Speaker 1: more and more frequently, and she was so hungover she
Speaker 1: fell down on the floor of the kitchen and had
Speaker 1: a seizure in front of me. So like, I called
Speaker 1: the paramedics, and I called my dad, and and then
Speaker 1: it just never got talked about ever again. M was
Speaker 1: sixteen at the time of the kitchen episode. Nobody checked
Speaker 1: up on her to make sure she was okay afterwards,
Speaker 1: and that disregard broke some last straw inside her. M
Speaker 1: was not swept up in a tantrum. She realized that
Speaker 1: she just really and truly hated her mother. It was
Speaker 1: easier to put all of those feelings into just kind
Speaker 1: of like a ball and just bury them down and
Speaker 1: hold onto them so tightly. I was so angry. I
Speaker 1: was so angry. M cut ties and with a very
Speaker 1: sharp knife. Her mom called clearly and precarious situations struggling
Speaker 1: with addiction and her own mental health crises. But M
Speaker 1: was just done. When she got engaged, she decided not
Speaker 1: to invite her mother to the wedding. I clung to
Speaker 1: that hate sometimes. It was the only thing that kept
Speaker 1: me going. A Hatred can be effectively used as fuel,
Speaker 1: and not just by those of us trying to traverse
Speaker 1: thorny and painful personal relationships. Institutions with global influence have
Speaker 1: tried to harness hate too. It was a fascinating study
Speaker 1: that found that after World War Two, only a tiny
Speaker 1: fraction of soldiers actually fired their guns at the enemy,
Speaker 1: and those that did fire their guns very often intentionally
Speaker 1: missed their targets, their human targets. So after World War Two.
Speaker 1: When it was discovered this was the case, military leaders
Speaker 1: decided to initiate psychological training programs which resulted in a
Speaker 1: massive increase in the willingness to kill in a war setting.
Speaker 1: That is hate crime expert Matthew Williams. He's professor of
Speaker 1: criminology at Cardiff University, and there he was describing the
Speaker 1: psychological programs employed by the U. S Military to increase
Speaker 1: kill rates after the Second World War. The army started
Speaker 1: using man shaped targets instead of bulls eyes and tried
Speaker 1: dispersing responsibility for killing throughout the troops or to place
Speaker 1: it onto an authority figure like the commanding officer. They
Speaker 1: also aimed to recast the enemy. One side is told
Speaker 1: that the other side is in some way subhuman. They
Speaker 1: are akin to say, parasites, they are cockroaches, their vermin
Speaker 1: for example. So if hate can cause violence, and what
Speaker 1: causes hate, Matthew identifies what he calls accelerance, social or
Speaker 1: psychological forces that push people to hatred. So a social
Speaker 1: force might be, for example, a condition on economic condition
Speaker 1: where competition is fierce because the resources are incredibly scarce.
Speaker 1: In situations where resources are scarce in times of economic downturn.
Speaker 1: For example, we saw it in two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: with the crash. Division grows in an environment where money
Speaker 1: is really tight, For example, people might fight to obtain
Speaker 1: resources for themselves in their community and denigrate other people
Speaker 1: who are trying to do the same. That's a social excellerant.
Speaker 1: The second type of excelerant is psychological. For example, a
Speaker 1: trauma that's happened to a person in their lifetime. Say
Speaker 1: they've been unemployed for a very long time, and they
Speaker 1: feel shame, embarrassment the way their life is developed, and
Speaker 1: then they're told by a political leader that it's not
Speaker 1: their fault that they are unemployed, and in fact, it's
Speaker 1: the fault of immigrants because they're taking all the jobs.
Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, this psychological trauma is being
Speaker 1: weaponized in a way that demonizes an outgroup. The social
Speaker 1: excelerant job scarcity, compounds with the psychological excelerant humiliation, and
Speaker 1: Matthew says that if those forces bear down hard enough,
Speaker 1: hatred is forged in the pressure, and hateful sentiment can
Speaker 1: become hateful action. I was a victim of a hate
Speaker 1: crime around twenty years ago when I was standing in
Speaker 1: a gay bar in London. I lit up a cigarette
Speaker 1: and someone asked me for a light. I offered, and
Speaker 1: within seconds I was on the floor and I looked
Speaker 1: up at my attacker and they used a homophobic slur.
Speaker 1: Two other men were in on the assault. Queer bashing
Speaker 1: was the name for that kind of attack. Then it
Speaker 1: wasn't about robbery or personal conflict. It was more like sport.
Speaker 1: Matthew remembers hearing their laughter as they left. They didn't
Speaker 1: hate him personally. Their contempt was for his general way
Speaker 1: of life. The hate in hate crime overlaps or maybe
Speaker 1: blurs into other terms like bigotry or moral disregard. After
Speaker 1: the attack, Matthew lay on the floor, bleeding from the mouth,
Speaker 1: head ringing. He's never held his partner's hand in public since.
Speaker 1: He became obsessed with the question of his attackers motives.
Speaker 1: What could those guys have possibly gained from beating him up.
Speaker 1: I was looking for something concrete to separate them from me.
Speaker 1: I was looking to see that there was something maybe
Speaker 1: you know they are so different from me because biologically speaking,
Speaker 1: they are fundamentally different. I wanted to find that, but
Speaker 1: I didn't. The surprise for me was that We're all
Speaker 1: capable of hatred. Given the right set of circumstances, anyone
Speaker 1: can become the attacker. Because all my attackers were young
Speaker 1: black men, one of my concerns was that the attack
Speaker 1: may have changed the way I think about young black men.
Speaker 1: As the saying goes, hurt people hurt people were subject
Speaker 1: to different accelerants, and our ability to cope with them
Speaker 1: varies two but none of us are immune to them,
Speaker 1: and Matthew was self aware enough to guard against his
Speaker 1: own experience pushing him to reactionary or retaliatory attitudes of
Speaker 1: his own. There's an onus on all of us to
Speaker 1: prevent our particular pains from calcifying into general prejudices. Without
Speaker 1: willful intervention, hate can have a very long life span.
Speaker 1: Back to Iran, a psychologist ask Israelis today what does
Speaker 1: it mean to be in Israel? And five out of
Speaker 1: the first seven things they will say would be related
Speaker 1: to Palestinians. You know, we're better to them, We're more
Speaker 1: more than them. They want to damage or hurt us
Speaker 1: in many ways, and we have to stick together to
Speaker 1: cope with that situation. Would it be too much to
Speaker 1: say that a sense of hatred that feeling hatred can
Speaker 1: unite people are definitely unfortunately. I think that in many, many,
Speaker 1: many ways, hate is the ultimate glue that brings people
Speaker 1: together into groups. Probably the most powerful, extreme and also
Speaker 1: mobilizing emotion is hatred. In the cartoon studio of imagination,
Speaker 1: it's easy to picture people and the grips of hate
Speaker 1: as looming over others, victimizing the less powerful. But according
Speaker 1: to Iran, those who actually experience hate understand themselves as victims,
Speaker 1: like they're on the right side of a moral battle,
Speaker 1: defending a way of life and their virtues from an
Speaker 1: enemy hell bent on their destruction. Given that hate is
Speaker 1: so morally salient, so effective at connecting us and motivating action,
Speaker 1: how would we ever hope to quit it? Matthew the
Speaker 1: criminologist says, our efforts have to start early. You cannot
Speaker 1: turn off the cultural tap to prevent the information flooding
Speaker 1: into the brain. So this is why when trying to
Speaker 1: initiate anti racist policies, anti racist initiatives, this has to
Speaker 1: be done at a very young age. We have to
Speaker 1: start under the age of eleven, at least under the
Speaker 1: age of eleven to see real differences That idea rests
Speaker 1: on several studies of children's brains which indicate that fear
Speaker 1: responses to black faces are learned. They don't show up
Speaker 1: when kids are little, but they do by adolescents. But
Speaker 1: of course we can't just wait for an improved crop
Speaker 1: of ten year olds to grow up and save the world.
Speaker 1: What works to stop people from hating? So that's the
Speaker 1: million question. I think when people hate it is driven
Speaker 1: by a more general idea that, you know, people and
Speaker 1: groups simply cannot change. But in his formal studies, and
Speaker 1: has found that if you can convince people that change
Speaker 1: is possible, not even in the context of the group
Speaker 1: with whom they're in conflict, but like generally, that people
Speaker 1: can evolve over time, then it's possible to make some headway.
Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven, Science magazine published the findings of
Speaker 1: one such study. So we talked about the fact that
Speaker 1: in the history people change and groups change their views,
Speaker 1: their attitudes, and their behavior. We managed to reduce their
Speaker 1: levels of hatred towards the other group in almost and
Speaker 1: that sort of reduction might have real consequences in the
Speaker 1: kind of policies that people would can sit her endorsing,
Speaker 1: and by that also to increase their willingness to engage
Speaker 1: in actions that would you know, entail making huge compromises,
Speaker 1: political compromises in order to promote peace. So just by
Speaker 1: convincing that the groups can change, we decreased hatred and
Speaker 1: increase people's support for compromises. Now back to M, who
Speaker 1: sees no promise of any compromise with her mom. But
Speaker 1: this point in her story, she has spent years hating
Speaker 1: her mother. The hallmark version of this story would involve
Speaker 1: a reconciliation. That's not the real life of the story,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. As M moved through her adulthood, the hate
Speaker 1: that had at one point served as an engine became
Speaker 1: an anchor. When I got married, I was like, I am,
Speaker 1: I have to let this go. I have to let
Speaker 1: it go. That's easy to say, but hard to do.
Speaker 1: For M. That didn't mean mending fences. It just meant
Speaker 1: letting go of the electrified wire feelings that I have
Speaker 1: towards my mom. It's often easier to feel nothing about
Speaker 1: her than it is to feel anything about her, so
Speaker 1: I try really hard most of the time to feel
Speaker 1: nothing about it. Do you think falling in love with
Speaker 1: your husband helped to fall out of hate with your mom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so, And in turn it allowed me the
Speaker 1: permission to fall back in love with myself. I became
Speaker 1: a much better student at school when I stopped hating
Speaker 1: my mom. It's probably a correlation not causation thing, but
Speaker 1: I had so much more time and energy to put
Speaker 1: into school, which I love. Even after everything, I do
Speaker 1: have to thank my mom because without her I would
Speaker 1: not be in the career that I am now. It's peace.
Speaker 1: It's not the best of all possible pieces, or the
Speaker 1: one that she designed if she were in charge, but
Speaker 1: it's peace. Even when a war ends, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: the underlying conflicts do. The pressures of our lives, social
Speaker 1: or psychological, can move us to hate one another. Binary
Speaker 1: thinking that casts some groups as virtuous and others as
Speaker 1: villains can make us more susceptible to hatred. When we're
Speaker 1: de personalized to one another on a forum like the Internet,
Speaker 1: or as a product of propaganda, it's easier to hate
Speaker 1: somebody who doesn't seem fully human. Moreover, hatred might take
Speaker 1: special vigilance to stave off, because when you're in it,
Speaker 1: it can feel not only justified, but righteous. I hope
Speaker 1: that posting a sign outside that says hate has no
Speaker 1: home here is a comfort to our neighbors, particularly those
Speaker 1: that look, love, talk, pray differently than us. But we'd
Speaker 1: probably do just as well to routinely search insider houses
Speaker 1: for any sign that a small tendril of something uninvited
Speaker 1: hasn't come up through a floorboard, disguised as high minded
Speaker 1: indignation or moral purity, but capable of cracking the foundation nonetheless.
Speaker 1: Deeply Human is a BBC World Service and American public
Speaker 1: media co production with I Heart Media. It's written and
Speaker 1: hosted by me Dessa. Find me online at Dessa on
Speaker 1: Instagram and Dessa Darling on Twitter. What is a vampire facial?
Speaker 1: How did a plastic surgeon come to be one of
Speaker 1: Brazil's national icons? Is a makeover a healthy ego boost
Speaker 1: or a concession to a pretty messed up cosmetic industry?
Speaker 1: On the next Deeply Human, we're investigating beauty ethics and
Speaker 1: the intersection between them.