Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast
Speaker 1: Thursday Therapy. Welcome, I'm gonna do my It's Thursday therapy.
Speaker 1: I got like anxiety when you said that. I was like,
Speaker 1: are we having a therapy session every Thursday? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is happening. Okay. So road rage, Okay, do you
Speaker 1: have it? Not? Really? No, it's fascinating to me people
Speaker 1: that have road rage. It really is. I mean, like
Speaker 1: I got frustrated on the way here because they were
Speaker 1: going slow, but like, no, I typically don't. That's fine,
Speaker 1: You're like, okay, come on, dude, Like I don't like
Speaker 1: it when a person drives the exact speed limit. Don't
Speaker 1: do that or slower because if you're going if the
Speaker 1: speed limits forty, and then that means then I'm really
Speaker 1: we're only going like eight and that's just not acceptable.
Speaker 1: Oh I just just cool a little, like you don't know,
Speaker 1: you don't, because then usually you're gonna fall below the
Speaker 1: speed limit. Right, if you're a forty at the dots
Speaker 1: be limit person, you're gonna spat up a couple. Just
Speaker 1: speed up just a little bit, yeah, just a little bit.
Speaker 1: But like sure that bothers me. So I I'm new
Speaker 1: to the freeway right freeway driving, I accidentally and mind you,
Speaker 1: it was not a massive cut off at all, like
Speaker 1: I've been where my little triangle light thing wasn't even
Speaker 1: on to show that the car was close to me.
Speaker 1: This big old, massive truck. Let me just preface it
Speaker 1: with that. So I'm moving over into the fast lane
Speaker 1: and so again he's he's behind me, not speeding up,
Speaker 1: not anything. But the second that I move to the left,
Speaker 1: you've got a little closer. But again the little light
Speaker 1: thing still wasn't on. So I go left. It's like
Speaker 1: I ruined his entire day. She's gets so he speeds
Speaker 1: up so sped up so fast to the back of
Speaker 1: my jeep and then starts swerving his big truck like
Speaker 1: side to side, and I'm like, what what did I
Speaker 1: How did I possibly just ruined your your day? Like
Speaker 1: that just be and I didn't even cut you off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my light was not I'm gonna keep going back to that.
Speaker 1: That's a kind of my light was on my little
Speaker 1: side whatever. But so it's just and then I think
Speaker 1: back to men that I've dated that have had the
Speaker 1: worst road rage, and I'm like, it's a guy thing.
Speaker 1: It's like I really think it is. It's a guy thing.
Speaker 1: It's just like wild to me because I'm like, why
Speaker 1: do you let them affect you that bad? And that's
Speaker 1: my thing. I'm like, yeah, I might get a little frustrated,
Speaker 1: but for to actually ruin my couple of minutes after that,
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it. And also it's slightly
Speaker 1: terrifying because you never know who's like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: used to get into it with one of my access
Speaker 1: because he would do the big truck move and I'm like,
Speaker 1: this person could have a gun, could get out of
Speaker 1: the car. I'm like, it does It's not that big
Speaker 1: of a deal. So, yeah, they cut you off lumber.
Speaker 1: Yeah you didn't get a wreck. But I will say
Speaker 1: I agree with you on the Slow Show you have
Speaker 1: to go somewhere. But then that's when I was going
Speaker 1: back to I go, uh, there's God's in a roadblock
Speaker 1: in my in my way for a reason. There's always
Speaker 1: like I wasn't supposed to be there at this time.
Speaker 1: It sucks because I hate to be late. That's the
Speaker 1: only time because I just don't like to be late. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know me neither. Thursday Therapy Thursday Therapy wind Down Edition.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because a lot of people that
Speaker 1: listen to the show, it's fun to do the whole
Speaker 1: um pop culture chat, have some amazing guests come on.
Speaker 1: But I want to dive deeper on Thursday episodes with
Speaker 1: certain topics because there's a lot of people that listen
Speaker 1: to the show for some of the therapy stuff and
Speaker 1: they want to and might not have the means or
Speaker 1: the capability to be able to go to therapy. And
Speaker 1: so we're going to get some amazing therapist experts on
Speaker 1: the show for Thursdays to dive into different topics that
Speaker 1: can be helpful for everyone, not just my life, but
Speaker 1: for other people that might be dealing with things that
Speaker 1: and they can't get to a therapy. I love that
Speaker 1: it's a great idea, and because we've been so open
Speaker 1: about therapy, might as well do a therapy Thursday. Uh,
Speaker 1: And we are going to have. Her name is Dr
Speaker 1: Tammy Nelson, So she's a PhD. She's a sex in
Speaker 1: a Relationship expert. She's a speaker, author, licensed psychotherapist UM
Speaker 1: thirty years of experience. She's works with couples, individuals, and
Speaker 1: she says open relationships have soared since the pandemic, with
Speaker 1: a forty five percent increase in inquiries about discussing the
Speaker 1: subject with partners in the last three months. So she's done.
Speaker 1: Like Ted talks about some of this stuff, and it's
Speaker 1: interesting because one of our things too, she says. Um
Speaker 1: seventy of those in open relationships said that they were
Speaker 1: somewhat or very fulfilled, compared to twent in closed relationships.
Speaker 1: Among those who are not yet an open relationships, seventy
Speaker 1: people in monogamous relationships want to introduce some for of nonmonogamy.
Speaker 1: They just aren't sure how to start the conversation. Couples
Speaker 1: are more interested in spicing things up a bit, says
Speaker 1: Dr Nelson, So we're gonna have run. Wow. She's got
Speaker 1: a book too, by the way, Open Monogamy, a Guide
Speaker 1: to co creating your Ideal relationship Agreement Book. Hi Tammy, Hi,
Speaker 1: how are you welcome to therapy Thursday? How you doing?
Speaker 1: I'm great? How are you? I'm good? I'm good. I
Speaker 1: really wish Kristen was here at this for this conversation too,
Speaker 1: because I'm so excited to dive into this, I guess
Speaker 1: conversation about what I think couples are maybe too afraid
Speaker 1: to say that they want in a relationship because from
Speaker 1: just reading some of the percentages about how you said
Speaker 1: that seven you say sent of these are open, said
Speaker 1: that they, you know, were more fully uh businically happier
Speaker 1: than being in a closed relationship. And I just I personally,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you don't know my background at all,
Speaker 1: but I would have a very hard time having an
Speaker 1: open relationship and for me, But I'm just curious, like
Speaker 1: since the pandemic, Like, why do you think since the pandemic? Well,
Speaker 1: I think a few things. One is that, um, you know, people,
Speaker 1: especially young people and I don't know how old you
Speaker 1: guys are, but your young nearing forties, okay, perfect, you're
Speaker 1: in that sweet spot. I think that people spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time um together in a in a very small,
Speaker 1: um contracted environment where they were overly responsible for family,
Speaker 1: they were working from home, there were lot of stressors
Speaker 1: and um concerned about uh extended family and not a
Speaker 1: lot of community. And so two things happen. One people
Speaker 1: realized my partner can't be everything to me, and two
Speaker 1: they joined me crazy. And the other piece is that
Speaker 1: a lot of people found that you know, maybe living
Speaker 1: in a village is not a bad idea, Like maybe
Speaker 1: we get outsourced someone to go search for search and
Speaker 1: hunt for toilet paper, and maybe we get outsource someone
Speaker 1: for even for our sexual needs. Maybe we could outsourced
Speaker 1: someone who's going to stay home and and homeschool the
Speaker 1: kids because that's not my thing. Maybe we could homeschool
Speaker 1: um kids and I can go back to work, you know,
Speaker 1: like maybe it takes more than just the two of us,
Speaker 1: Like maybe we need more resources. Because you couldn't bring
Speaker 1: in your family, your parents because you were afraid to
Speaker 1: get them sick. You didn't have preschool or um any
Speaker 1: kind of after school activities to support you. You didn't
Speaker 1: have work to go to, so you didn't have a
Speaker 1: community at work. There really was this sort of awakening
Speaker 1: like wow, it's not good to be isolated, and maybe
Speaker 1: we need to go back to sort of this tribal
Speaker 1: idea of everybody working together to make things easier. So
Speaker 1: are you talking polygamy then no, Polygamy means being married
Speaker 1: to more than one person, because when I hear what
Speaker 1: I like, I like to have a person like you
Speaker 1: knowing not just about sexual Yeah, it's just about having
Speaker 1: someone help well the other ways was you know, is
Speaker 1: a legal term. It means being married to more than
Speaker 1: one person, just like monogamy means being married to one person.
Speaker 1: And you know, we use monogamy interchangeably with sexual fidelity,
Speaker 1: which will do today just for the sake of simplicity.
Speaker 1: But polygamy was traditionally about men having a bunch of wives.
Speaker 1: It wasn't about wo men having a bunch of husband
Speaker 1: It was really working or you know, for men. And
Speaker 1: a lot has changed over the past century. You know
Speaker 1: when we talk about monogamy today and um, this sort
Speaker 1: of flexible, fluid definition of monogamy um for this newer generation.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not your grandmother's monogamy. This is
Speaker 1: women being the gatekeepers of how they want their partnerships
Speaker 1: to be. Whether it's they want traditional monogamy like the
Speaker 1: grandmother had, or they want which is I doubt exactly
Speaker 1: the way your grandmother had to or they want a
Speaker 1: much more open potential of romantic and sexual relationships with
Speaker 1: other people, but they want a primary partner at home.
Speaker 1: We get to choose. Now, this is the first time
Speaker 1: in history, like women get to make that choice. It's
Speaker 1: all different. Now, are you married yeah, do you can
Speaker 1: mask it? Do you have another marriage? Well, we have
Speaker 1: a very flexible and fluid agreement that if we want
Speaker 1: to do something, we would talk, talk about it and
Speaker 1: make decisions together. And I think, um, you know, unfortunately
Speaker 1: I'm really really busy, so I don't know if I
Speaker 1: get to take advantage of that potential agreement. UM. I
Speaker 1: think the fantasy of the freedom of that makes the
Speaker 1: um makes the relationship much more um, much more safe.
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of like if you know you can
Speaker 1: have freedom to do what you want because you're you know,
Speaker 1: your relationship is super solid and it brings like a
Speaker 1: different level of trust and and connection. So here's my
Speaker 1: question around that, because to me, I'm like, I've always
Speaker 1: equated sex with love, love with sex. It's changed now
Speaker 1: through you know, doing some work in therapy and all
Speaker 1: those things. So I kind of thinking of it now
Speaker 1: it's like, well, why why do how does this this?
Speaker 1: Like why like why go somewhere else for sex? Like
Speaker 1: like what is what is really truely? Oh, you just
Speaker 1: want to be able to see someone else, Like shouldn't
Speaker 1: there just be I don't know. I guess I just
Speaker 1: struggle with the fact of them wanting to go somewhere
Speaker 1: else to have sex outside the marriage. It's like the
Speaker 1: marriage is so much more than just sex and and
Speaker 1: and I don't know is that like does that make
Speaker 1: I agree? It's hard for me to wrap my head
Speaker 1: around that concept as well. Well. I think a couple
Speaker 1: of things that you said, you know, there's a should
Speaker 1: or shouldn't, and then there's them wanting to. What if
Speaker 1: it's you, you know, like you don't want to, and
Speaker 1: that's fine for you. That's a decision that you make
Speaker 1: and you're gonna want to be with someone who probably
Speaker 1: feels the same way. But there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: out there that I don't feel like that's what should
Speaker 1: or shouldn't happen. They might feel differently, and so for
Speaker 1: them is different, you know. Like I work with a
Speaker 1: lot of couples who have there's a wide range of monogamy.
Speaker 1: I call it the monogamy continuum. And for them, I
Speaker 1: helped them talk about the monogamy gap, like does one
Speaker 1: of them want a little bit more fluidity or more
Speaker 1: openness than the other one, Like that's the problem. It's
Speaker 1: not that they should or shouldn't, or they want or
Speaker 1: they don't. I find that people have all kinds of
Speaker 1: ranges of what they want or don't want. Like one
Speaker 1: might say I want an open relationship and the other
Speaker 1: one says, I don't want that at all. But then
Speaker 1: when you ask them what does that mean, they might
Speaker 1: mean like, I don't know, I just want to have
Speaker 1: like a threesome someday. That's my fantasy. But one's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that's not what I thought. I thought you meant like
Speaker 1: you were going to go off and fall in love
Speaker 1: with other people, And that person is like, god, no,
Speaker 1: I would never want that. You know, Like we have
Speaker 1: this black and white idea of what these things mean,
Speaker 1: but it's very nuanced and subtle for actually the actual
Speaker 1: people that are thinking about it. You know, it's ideas
Speaker 1: to communicate about it and try to have an open
Speaker 1: conversation and then if it does happen though, because I
Speaker 1: think we've had we've had a few people on right
Speaker 1: cat were the conversations where you know, um, they were
Speaker 1: both kind of allowed to but then when he did
Speaker 1: or it wasn't, they changed their mind. They changed their
Speaker 1: mind later because I feel like that trust peace or
Speaker 1: the insecurity piece comes in and then now you have
Speaker 1: a whole other can of worms that you now have
Speaker 1: to work on within your marriage, and that bomb that
Speaker 1: you have as a husband and wife has now just
Speaker 1: been um, you know, hurt because there's now this other
Speaker 1: person that came into the marriage and now you're having
Speaker 1: to deal with trust issues and insecurities and it's like
Speaker 1: is that worth that potential outcome? Well, you know, monogamy
Speaker 1: is no longer defined by morality, it's defined by um honesty.
Speaker 1: So the problem was not that they opened their marth.
Speaker 1: The problem was that they weren't honest about something. You
Speaker 1: can somebody else can ruin your marriage, whether you're open
Speaker 1: or closed, or you're you know, pretend monogamous or not.
Speaker 1: Like the amount of affairs today, there's seventy million people
Speaker 1: on Ashley Madison, which is a million seventy million worldwide,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people that are cheating. So
Speaker 1: if you think that you know that everybody really who's
Speaker 1: married is monogamous, like that's a lie. They're not monogamous,
Speaker 1: they're non consensually non monogamous. They're pretending they're monogamous. So
Speaker 1: the problem is not that you know, somebody else comes
Speaker 1: into your marriage and ruins it The problem is that
Speaker 1: people are not honest about what they're doing. So the
Speaker 1: majority of people that are having successful open relationships, I
Speaker 1: don't see them, right, It's like a it's like a
Speaker 1: self selected population. They don't come to therapy because it's
Speaker 1: working for them. So I don't see those people. I
Speaker 1: might set the people that you're talking about. Where something
Speaker 1: happens it does work, it's usually because they broke their
Speaker 1: monogamy agreement. They had an agreement somebody. You know, you
Speaker 1: can still cheat in an open relationship. You know, somebody
Speaker 1: did not follow the agreement that they made, And that's
Speaker 1: really the problem. It's the you know, you said you
Speaker 1: were going to do this and you didn't, or so
Speaker 1: how do you come back from that? Like, what do
Speaker 1: you do then to come back from that place? I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's coming back ever. I don't think
Speaker 1: ever come back after an affair or a trust breach
Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it depends on what
Speaker 1: it is. Um there's no going back. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think if you try to go back, starting to end
Speaker 1: up here again, I think you can make a choice.
Speaker 1: Depending like there's a lot of reasons that people cheat,
Speaker 1: but depending on whether this is a can opener, you know,
Speaker 1: you cheated because you want out, or it's um a
Speaker 1: wake up call, like, oh my god, I can't believe
Speaker 1: this happen, and we gotta like think about what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do here, or how this, how this is affecting us.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes it's UM, maybe the best thing that could
Speaker 1: have happened, because now we've got to really look at
Speaker 1: what were we thinking. Or maybe it's UM a way
Speaker 1: to steer us in a different direction, you know, So
Speaker 1: depending on what it is, you have to sort of
Speaker 1: draw a line in the sand and say, Okay, whatever
Speaker 1: vision we had of what our relationship was, it's not
Speaker 1: what really was going on. And so now we can
Speaker 1: decide do we want a different relationship going forward. If
Speaker 1: we do, we can have it with each other, but
Speaker 1: we're going to have to have a whole new agreement
Speaker 1: and a whole new conversation about what our monogamy is
Speaker 1: gonna look like. So we had friends and I won't
Speaker 1: go into it deeper, that kind of had that situation
Speaker 1: Janna that I don't know if they considered UM, I
Speaker 1: guess it was considered open, but then there was not honesty,
Speaker 1: and what would be considered a cheating situation, Shin, and
Speaker 1: it was that's they basically had to go back and
Speaker 1: you know, rediscover what they wanted to make their marriage.
Speaker 1: They are still married and they stayed married, but they
Speaker 1: changed a lot of things about that. I don't think
Speaker 1: that they're still participating in that situation. I think they
Speaker 1: decided that that wasn't something that worked for them once
Speaker 1: they went past those boundaries. But I do think it's
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's possible when people change their
Speaker 1: mind and you know, or something didn't work for them
Speaker 1: or whatever. But like you said, it was the lack
Speaker 1: of honesty at the end of the day that got
Speaker 1: them to that point. Yeah, I think I think the
Speaker 1: honesty is the I mean, it's the distrust is the killer.
Speaker 1: That's which killed my marriage for sure. It's like, just
Speaker 1: be honest, I don't want to discover, like you know,
Speaker 1: let's remember begging, like just tell me, like so I
Speaker 1: can just I just can know, or and like and
Speaker 1: then like we can we can work on this. It's
Speaker 1: but the dis honesty that's I mean, that's that's the
Speaker 1: that's the killer. And you're right, you don't you don't
Speaker 1: come back from that you've got to either go, okay,
Speaker 1: that we're going to make a new marriage and this
Speaker 1: is new boundaries and a new a new vowsheet what
Speaker 1: we will and we won't do, or you go your
Speaker 1: separate ways. But yeah, it's it's a it's a whole
Speaker 1: new world out there. I mean, that's it's a hard
Speaker 1: one to wrap around me. You're right, we're used to
Speaker 1: kind of like the black and white situation, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, this situation is not that well. And you
Speaker 1: know there's an assumption I think that when you get
Speaker 1: married or you have a committed partnership that you know
Speaker 1: saying once I do and I promise I'll never cheat
Speaker 1: on you, it was gonna last for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. Like we live a long time. You know,
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be together ten, fifty, sixty, sometimes seventy
Speaker 1: years together. And if you don't revisit what that means,
Speaker 1: often you're gonna go through a lot of eases in
Speaker 1: your life. You're different at forty than you were at five,
Speaker 1: totally different at fifty, and totally different at sixty. And
Speaker 1: you know that's like kind of like saying, well, I
Speaker 1: told you I loved you when I married you, so
Speaker 1: I'll let you know if I change my mind. You know,
Speaker 1: like you have to revisit the whole idea of what
Speaker 1: it means to be together and what it means to
Speaker 1: stay sexy, and what it means to keep your relationship alive,
Speaker 1: and what it means to be honest. You know. Are
Speaker 1: we supposed to tell each other every time we masturbate
Speaker 1: in the shower or every time we have a fantasy
Speaker 1: of someone else? Like, what does it mean to cheat?
Speaker 1: And maybe that conversation will change? Maybe you don't want
Speaker 1: to know. Maybe it's too much honesty, you know, but
Speaker 1: to really be explicit about that? Could she wait? Are
Speaker 1: you saying that cheating could be if someone masturbates and
Speaker 1: has a fantasy, sometimes people feel really betrayed. Really, I
Speaker 1: would not want to know. I don't want to want
Speaker 1: to know what I'm thinking about feeling very I think
Speaker 1: I if my last for sure, but any time before
Speaker 1: that or after, I wouldn't have I don't want to
Speaker 1: I don't want to know. Lily thinking about like, just
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pretend that you think it's me and real
Speaker 1: cute little ni tights and whatever. Well, let me ask
Speaker 1: you a question. Would you feel like they were cheating
Speaker 1: if you walked in and they were masturbating and looking
Speaker 1: at porn. So porn is interesting for me just because
Speaker 1: of my past relationship and because I know what what
Speaker 1: kind of led to the eventual addiction. I think with
Speaker 1: my with my ex. So I think when you it's
Speaker 1: a slippery slope when people watch porn because you're getting
Speaker 1: this insane fix watching these two couples or three couples
Speaker 1: or a girl sucked the dick or whatever it is
Speaker 1: that it then you become almost numb to the porn.
Speaker 1: So then you now want it in person, or you
Speaker 1: want it, you want that to happen in real time
Speaker 1: to you. And so I think, and that's the experience
Speaker 1: that I've had with um a partner, And so I think,
Speaker 1: you know, my new relationship, I mean, you know, we
Speaker 1: haven't obviously discussed that, but I mean I don't. I
Speaker 1: almost don't want to, just because I just want to
Speaker 1: kind of put the blinders on right now since it's
Speaker 1: a new relationship. I mean, I love it, but I
Speaker 1: think it would definitely offend me more if I knew
Speaker 1: he was thinking about that would seem more personal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: him thinking about another woman that I might know or
Speaker 1: that whatever versus. Even though I still don't love the
Speaker 1: porn thing, I wouldn't feel as much like it was
Speaker 1: like a cheating situation than like thinking about like the
Speaker 1: friend I have down the ship. I mean, they have
Speaker 1: porn videos and I v F things. I mean, guys,
Speaker 1: need you know what I mean? Like that either walking
Speaker 1: into these rooms and watching these vhs of porn, like, well,
Speaker 1: your wife is waiting for you to get the sperm out,
Speaker 1: you know, so it's like, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just give you a video. But yes, so I
Speaker 1: see what you're saying, what you're asking for. Sure, I
Speaker 1: definitely say two. And that's something that I haven't I
Speaker 1: guess I haven't really thought about. But yeah, with my ex,
Speaker 1: for sure, that would have like sent me through the roof.
Speaker 1: But now I don't know. I haven't, I haven't been
Speaker 1: happen and I haven't had to touch that, and I
Speaker 1: don't I never had a problem with it before. I'll
Speaker 1: say that. Sure, I mean, there's no right answer. You know,
Speaker 1: it's really about the two of you. Like I don't
Speaker 1: have any judgment about anyone's monogamy, but I do think
Speaker 1: that the important thing is to make it explicit so
Speaker 1: that you don't walk in on him, and because you've
Speaker 1: never talked about it before, you know, say you're still
Speaker 1: together for five years from now. I hope you are,
Speaker 1: if this is the one for you. But you walk
Speaker 1: in on him five years from now and he's master
Speaker 1: being to porn and you go, oh my god, you're
Speaker 1: cheating on me. And he says, what are you talking about.
Speaker 1: I've been doing this since I was ten, Like, this
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with you. Like that's where the
Speaker 1: betrayal comes from. When you have these implicit assumptions about
Speaker 1: what monog can me. It is supposed to be like
Speaker 1: for you, maybe I'm just making this stop for you,
Speaker 1: maybe cheating, and for him, and he's like, this is me,
Speaker 1: this is my private sexual stuff. It has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with you. So it's really more about the conversation
Speaker 1: than it is about like what is cheating and what isn't?
Speaker 1: Because I'm not the I'm not the arbitr of cheating,
Speaker 1: But I'm more interested in helping you to have the
Speaker 1: conversation of like, is it cheating if you send pictures
Speaker 1: of yourself to your ex? Is it cheating? If you
Speaker 1: post pictures of yourself in a bathing suit on TikTok?
Speaker 1: Is it cheating if you you know, friend someone on Facebook?
Speaker 1: Although you guys probably don't use Facebook anymore, but you know,
Speaker 1: like what is these days you have to talk about
Speaker 1: those things? You know, when when I first got married
Speaker 1: to my first husband, that wasn't even a thing, like
Speaker 1: you never talked about that. Today cheating is like it's
Speaker 1: so much more complex, so much more of a conversation
Speaker 1: that you have to have. See, I think I definitely
Speaker 1: think texting someone inappropriately emotionally or whatever, that to me
Speaker 1: is cheating. Now a lot of people won't think that's
Speaker 1: cheating because it's not physical. You tried to nail in
Speaker 1: my brain for years, like Janna, that's still wrong. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: it was just like a well, and it's like she's saying,
Speaker 1: it's you have to have a conversation on whether you
Speaker 1: think that you know, And I think back to the
Speaker 1: days when I was reaching out while I was still
Speaker 1: in a relationship with guys and reaching out to other
Speaker 1: people to try to get validation, and that's it's still
Speaker 1: crossing a boundary. It's still a line that you shouldn't cross.
Speaker 1: And I you know, I definitely was wrong in those
Speaker 1: situations too in my past, so I can see I
Speaker 1: can see it and go okay, now moving forward, like yeah, hey,
Speaker 1: like no sliding into d M s or texting women
Speaker 1: that you don't really need to be texting. You know
Speaker 1: What's so that would that would that would be a
Speaker 1: huge one for me in moving forward and maybe having
Speaker 1: the conversation versus That's an expectation I think we would
Speaker 1: a lot of us would have, right, But I think,
Speaker 1: but we need to make sure that he feels the
Speaker 1: same way right and anyone right, because I mean, would
Speaker 1: she'd be so pissed if you wanted to nixt d
Speaker 1: ms and saw like him chatting though yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: we yes, I mean we've recently had a lot of
Speaker 1: conversations and we've been married for fifteen years, but about
Speaker 1: what is acceptable for each other. But that's something we
Speaker 1: never talked about really before. Interesting because it's like I
Speaker 1: had some assumptions of things that he did or didn't
Speaker 1: do that he was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: I don't you guys also got married so young, Like
Speaker 1: she was saying, like, you got married when you were
Speaker 1: twenty three years old and I was like, well, I
Speaker 1: just kind of assumed that, and he was like, no,
Speaker 1: like what you know, And so we've had a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations around that. So it's interesting because you just
Speaker 1: I mean, there's things that I assumed he did, he
Speaker 1: doesn't do, There's things you know. It's just like a
Speaker 1: lot of Yeah. So it's just like having those conversations
Speaker 1: and being like, just so we're clear though I'm not
Speaker 1: comfortable with this. That's good though, that's conversation. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: in your book, I mean, what is for our listeners
Speaker 1: that are you know listening right now? What is something is?
Speaker 1: It's a it's a basically create co creating your ideal
Speaker 1: relationship agreement. So it's a guide. So are you basically
Speaker 1: walking through saying like, hey, this is what this this
Speaker 1: looks like, this is what this could look like, or
Speaker 1: how like what kind of guide are we talking about here? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's really for anyone to just start the
Speaker 1: conversation like you were saying, you know, even after fifteen
Speaker 1: years of marriage, like wait a minute, where are we
Speaker 1: do you start the conversation with? Um, hey, do we
Speaker 1: tell each other every time we have a what else?
Speaker 1: Or is that like no, I don't want to know
Speaker 1: do we tell each other about you know, poor do
Speaker 1: we Is it okay that I'm texting my ex? You know,
Speaker 1: it's about opening that dialogue. And then what if we
Speaker 1: want to have a threesome with someone, And what if
Speaker 1: we want to go to a party and flirt with
Speaker 1: other people? And what if I'm dancing with somebody else?
Speaker 1: Like all the way across the continuum to you know,
Speaker 1: people who do want to have a more open relationship.
Speaker 1: What if they want to go to a sex party.
Speaker 1: What if they want to have sex with other people
Speaker 1: when they're on vacation, but no, you know, no penetration.
Speaker 1: What if you know, you can get really granular to
Speaker 1: all the way to people who want to be polyamorous
Speaker 1: and say, you know what, just because I'm married, I'm
Speaker 1: not dead. I'm going to fall in love with someone else,
Speaker 1: but I don't ever want to lose you as my
Speaker 1: primary partner. I think there are people who feel that
Speaker 1: they can do that and that they can stay central
Speaker 1: in their marriage or in their primary central relationship. And
Speaker 1: you know, like we said, you know you can have
Speaker 1: betrayal in any of those areas. And so the reeman,
Speaker 1: the guide is a way to have those conversations and also,
Speaker 1: like we said, to have maybe a veto power, like
Speaker 1: like when do I get to say this is not okay,
Speaker 1: we need to take a break, or we need to
Speaker 1: like chill out. I don't like this person, or right,
Speaker 1: I don't like this text, or you know, how do
Speaker 1: you have the really tough conversations to make your relationship
Speaker 1: last and to keep it sexy and alive, so you're
Speaker 1: not just the person that's always shutting everything down, like
Speaker 1: you can't talk to them and I don't like they did,
Speaker 1: Like that's not gonna work forever. You want to keep
Speaker 1: things open and juicy and alive, even if it's just
Speaker 1: a fantasy and you never do anything. Sometimes that's more
Speaker 1: than enough. You just talk about stuff that can kind
Speaker 1: of be exciting, never doing anything, um but knowing that
Speaker 1: your partner is open to the ideas, and maybe that's
Speaker 1: all you need, right I kind of I look at
Speaker 1: you know, with relationships, the relationships moving forward, it's if
Speaker 1: there's something that you might think that I won't like,
Speaker 1: then don't do it, you know, if you have to,
Speaker 1: if you have to question, but also talk to me
Speaker 1: like that's like you said, like you gotta if you
Speaker 1: don't know, communicate because I think that's Um, yeah, I
Speaker 1: just I would love to be respected in a relationship
Speaker 1: when I'm not there, like to me and you might
Speaker 1: not know how to respect me. So you have to
Speaker 1: have that conversation with your partner to say this is
Speaker 1: what respect looks like for me and for us. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you would. You know you want honesty, you know. Sometimes
Speaker 1: not talking about things can make it feel like people
Speaker 1: are keeping secrets. Yeah, and it feels like something's wrong,
Speaker 1: like why didn't you tell me you talk to your
Speaker 1: ex when you were visiting your Then I could feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now something's going on, when really it might feel like yeah,
Speaker 1: but I knew it would bother you, so I didn't
Speaker 1: tell you as protecting you, you know. So there's a
Speaker 1: whole kind What does honesty really mean? And how honest
Speaker 1: do you really want me to be with you? And
Speaker 1: what is it to show respect? Like you said? Well,
Speaker 1: thank you Dr Tammy Nelson for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: Everyone get her new book Open Monogamy a Guy to
Speaker 1: co creating your ideal relationship Agreement. Um, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: appreciate you, Thank you guys, and good luck in your
Speaker 1: relationships with you. Ever have any questions, you can email me.
Speaker 1: I'll happy to help you. Okay, thank you? Uh could
Speaker 1: you do it? I mean she had me at the
Speaker 1: beginning though, when she talked about the different like the
Speaker 1: whole tribe helping you, like raise your kids and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love a sister wife, thank you, just like I
Speaker 1: just want them sleeping with my man like I would.
Speaker 1: I would love a tribe of of of that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: just just like us all helping out with each other,
Speaker 1: but not sexually. But I do think there is a
Speaker 1: world though, where you can What I love about that
Speaker 1: entire thing is just about the honesty piece. If people
Speaker 1: were honest. The fact there's seventy million people on Ashley
Speaker 1: Madison blows my mind. Yeah, and that's the part that's
Speaker 1: sad because it's never about the affair. It's always about
Speaker 1: the lie. And that was something that you know, my
Speaker 1: therapist in l A, a couple of syrapists always said
Speaker 1: it's always about the deceit, that it's never about the
Speaker 1: act itself. And so if you're open and you're honest
Speaker 1: and you have those communications or if you have that
Speaker 1: communication with each other, like who knows maybe it could
Speaker 1: work and maybe you could have the most beautiful relationship ever.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you guys both get to have a hall
Speaker 1: pass once a year. I don't know, and never maybe
Speaker 1: maybe you never tell each other because it's just like
Speaker 1: that might be two people's fantasies that end up together, right,
Speaker 1: just like that's not going to be like my fantasy
Speaker 1: was a bubble bath, and like you know, like that's
Speaker 1: where I'm at right now. But I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's going to change. And if it does change, and
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna talk to whoever I'm with, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they'd be like, hey, this is kind of hot, Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of like this come home from work. You know.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, Like who knows. But if if,
Speaker 1: if it's like we change, you change just like you
Speaker 1: and you have, like you change, you evolved. You have
Speaker 1: to communicate that change and what your needs with your partner. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I still think that there are some vowels that have
Speaker 1: that are taken in a marriage. And that's the hard
Speaker 1: part that makes me sadly. Maybe it's like my old
Speaker 1: school like even in old school, she's been married. But
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like it is I will
Speaker 1: say unfortunately but kind of unfortunately in my view, a
Speaker 1: little bit of an older school way of thinking, and
Speaker 1: I do hate to see that go. Um. I thought
Speaker 1: about that a lot while she was talking. I'm very
Speaker 1: open to hearing everything she has to say. Um, but
Speaker 1: it does kind of make me sad because I think
Speaker 1: there are vowels for a marriage, you know, for a
Speaker 1: reason too. It doesn't mean it can't work for some people,
Speaker 1: I guess too, you know, if that sit there on
Speaker 1: the same page. But I mean, my grandma and grandpa
Speaker 1: were married for seventy years and to the day, I
Speaker 1: mean to the day my grandmas and my grandpa dad
Speaker 1: obviously last year, and my grandma she has this guy
Speaker 1: on the lake that wants to take her on a date,
Speaker 1: and she's just like, I've only dated your grandpa, Like
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna and it's like I believe in that
Speaker 1: kind of love. I just do. I haven't. I didn't
Speaker 1: find it for a long time, but I believe I
Speaker 1: want that kind of love, you know. I want that
Speaker 1: we're gonna do this together. But I know this day
Speaker 1: and age things are different, and I here's what I want.
Speaker 1: I don't want my man on Actuley Madison. Whoever I
Speaker 1: end up with, I do not want him on actually
Speaker 1: mess and I'd rather him talk to me about what
Speaker 1: he's struggling with. So we can I can spice it
Speaker 1: up or do something. Yeah, before they go that route,
Speaker 1: have a conversation and maybe there is a change in
Speaker 1: feelings and maybe we could do this to spice it up.
Speaker 1: I mean, look what it He didn't take an affair
Speaker 1: in y'all's marriage, but it took some hard communication and
Speaker 1: separation and and now you guys are better than ever.
Speaker 1: So it's like sometimes having those discussions can strengthen marriage
Speaker 1: and relationships. So there's things that can spice it up
Speaker 1: that you don't have to go. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if, but teach their own just therapy
Speaker 1: there so the therapy same by