WEBVTT - Whine About It: Open Marriages 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:05.359 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:11.880 Thursday Therapy. Welcome, I'm gonna do my It's Thursday therapy. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.000 I got like anxiety when you said that. I was like, 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.880 are we having a therapy session every Thursday? Oh my god, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:23.239 this is happening. Okay. So road rage, Okay, do you 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.640 have it? Not? Really? No, it's fascinating to me people 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.120 that have road rage. It really is. I mean, like 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.400 I got frustrated on the way here because they were 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.720 going slow, but like, no, I typically don't. That's fine, 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.600 You're like, okay, come on, dude, Like I don't like 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.200 it when a person drives the exact speed limit. Don't 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.479 do that or slower because if you're going if the 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:47.200 speed limits forty, and then that means then I'm really 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.120 we're only going like eight and that's just not acceptable. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.159 Oh I just just cool a little, like you don't know, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.400 you don't, because then usually you're gonna fall below the 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.880 speed limit. Right, if you're a forty at the dots 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.960 be limit person, you're gonna spat up a couple. Just 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:02.840 speed up just a little bit, yeah, just a little bit. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.720 But like sure that bothers me. So I I'm new 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.760 to the freeway right freeway driving, I accidentally and mind you, 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:12.959 it was not a massive cut off at all, like 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.280 I've been where my little triangle light thing wasn't even 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.000 on to show that the car was close to me. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.440 This big old, massive truck. Let me just preface it 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.559 with that. So I'm moving over into the fast lane 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:31.759 and so again he's he's behind me, not speeding up, 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:36.080 not anything. But the second that I move to the left, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.360 you've got a little closer. But again the little light 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.000 thing still wasn't on. So I go left. It's like 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.840 I ruined his entire day. She's gets so he speeds 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.640 up so sped up so fast to the back of 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.920 my jeep and then starts swerving his big truck like 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.080 side to side, and I'm like, what what did I 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.520 How did I possibly just ruined your your day? Like 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:00.720 that just be and I didn't even cut you off. Yeah, 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:02.840 my light was not I'm gonna keep going back to that. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.480 That's a kind of my light was on my little 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.920 side whatever. But so it's just and then I think 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.120 back to men that I've dated that have had the 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.320 worst road rage, and I'm like, it's a guy thing. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.480 It's like I really think it is. It's a guy thing. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.320 It's just like wild to me because I'm like, why 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.760 do you let them affect you that bad? And that's 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:25.760 my thing. I'm like, yeah, I might get a little frustrated, 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.000 but for to actually ruin my couple of minutes after that, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.760 I just I don't understand it. And also it's slightly 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.040 terrifying because you never know who's like, oh yeah, I 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:37.680 used to get into it with one of my access 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.440 because he would do the big truck move and I'm like, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.320 this person could have a gun, could get out of 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.639 the car. I'm like, it does It's not that big 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.960 of a deal. So, yeah, they cut you off lumber. 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.960 Yeah you didn't get a wreck. But I will say 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.760 I agree with you on the Slow Show you have 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.280 to go somewhere. But then that's when I was going 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.600 back to I go, uh, there's God's in a roadblock 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.680 in my in my way for a reason. There's always 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.560 like I wasn't supposed to be there at this time. 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.560 It sucks because I hate to be late. That's the 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.359 only time because I just don't like to be late. Yeah, 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:16.720 I know me neither. Thursday Therapy Thursday Therapy wind Down Edition. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.120 I think it's interesting because a lot of people that 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.640 listen to the show, it's fun to do the whole 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.200 um pop culture chat, have some amazing guests come on. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.440 But I want to dive deeper on Thursday episodes with 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.400 certain topics because there's a lot of people that listen 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.480 to the show for some of the therapy stuff and 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.440 they want to and might not have the means or 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.760 the capability to be able to go to therapy. And 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.840 so we're going to get some amazing therapist experts on 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.880 the show for Thursdays to dive into different topics that 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.040 can be helpful for everyone, not just my life, but 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.760 for other people that might be dealing with things that 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.760 and they can't get to a therapy. I love that 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.920 it's a great idea, and because we've been so open 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:09.320 about therapy, might as well do a therapy Thursday. Uh, 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.800 And we are going to have. Her name is Dr 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.280 Tammy Nelson, So she's a PhD. She's a sex in 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:20.600 a Relationship expert. She's a speaker, author, licensed psychotherapist UM 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.719 thirty years of experience. She's works with couples, individuals, and 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.880 she says open relationships have soared since the pandemic, with 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.919 a forty five percent increase in inquiries about discussing the 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.960 subject with partners in the last three months. So she's done. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.480 Like Ted talks about some of this stuff, and it's 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.320 interesting because one of our things too, she says. Um 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.440 seventy of those in open relationships said that they were 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:53.600 somewhat or very fulfilled, compared to twent in closed relationships. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.559 Among those who are not yet an open relationships, seventy 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.840 people in monogamous relationships want to introduce some for of nonmonogamy. 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.400 They just aren't sure how to start the conversation. Couples 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.360 are more interested in spicing things up a bit, says 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.160 Dr Nelson, So we're gonna have run. Wow. She's got 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.039 a book too, by the way, Open Monogamy, a Guide 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:30.240 to co creating your Ideal relationship Agreement Book. Hi Tammy, Hi, 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:35.679 how are you welcome to therapy Thursday? How you doing? 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.640 I'm great? How are you? I'm good? I'm good. I 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.440 really wish Kristen was here at this for this conversation too, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.000 because I'm so excited to dive into this, I guess 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:53.320 conversation about what I think couples are maybe too afraid 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.080 to say that they want in a relationship because from 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.800 just reading some of the percentages about how you said 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.200 that seven you say sent of these are open, said 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.760 that they, you know, were more fully uh businically happier 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.679 than being in a closed relationship. And I just I personally, 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.560 I don't know if you don't know my background at all, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.560 but I would have a very hard time having an 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:19.200 open relationship and for me, But I'm just curious, like 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:26.000 since the pandemic, Like, why do you think since the pandemic? Well, 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:32.560 I think a few things. One is that, um, you know, people, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.080 especially young people and I don't know how old you 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:41.400 guys are, but your young nearing forties, okay, perfect, you're 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.120 in that sweet spot. I think that people spent a 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:50.200 lot of time um together in a in a very small, 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:57.000 um contracted environment where they were overly responsible for family, 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.799 they were working from home, there were lot of stressors 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:07.480 and um concerned about uh extended family and not a 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.960 lot of community. And so two things happen. One people 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:16.960 realized my partner can't be everything to me, and two 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.640 they joined me crazy. And the other piece is that 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.800 a lot of people found that you know, maybe living 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.240 in a village is not a bad idea, Like maybe 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.520 we get outsourced someone to go search for search and 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.640 hunt for toilet paper, and maybe we get outsource someone 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.160 for even for our sexual needs. Maybe we could outsourced 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.080 someone who's going to stay home and and homeschool the 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.480 kids because that's not my thing. Maybe we could homeschool 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.200 um kids and I can go back to work, you know, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.600 like maybe it takes more than just the two of us, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.480 Like maybe we need more resources. Because you couldn't bring 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.400 in your family, your parents because you were afraid to 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.440 get them sick. You didn't have preschool or um any 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.800 kind of after school activities to support you. You didn't 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.200 have work to go to, so you didn't have a 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.960 community at work. There really was this sort of awakening 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.600 like wow, it's not good to be isolated, and maybe 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:15.720 we need to go back to sort of this tribal 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.320 idea of everybody working together to make things easier. So 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.080 are you talking polygamy then no, Polygamy means being married 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.160 to more than one person, because when I hear what 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.200 I like, I like to have a person like you 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.959 knowing not just about sexual Yeah, it's just about having 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.439 someone help well the other ways was you know, is 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.040 a legal term. It means being married to more than 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.240 one person, just like monogamy means being married to one person. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:49.119 And you know, we use monogamy interchangeably with sexual fidelity, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.840 which will do today just for the sake of simplicity. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.760 But polygamy was traditionally about men having a bunch of wives. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.240 It wasn't about wo men having a bunch of husband 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:03.160 It was really working or you know, for men. And 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.520 a lot has changed over the past century. You know 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:12.240 when we talk about monogamy today and um, this sort 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:18.080 of flexible, fluid definition of monogamy um for this newer generation. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.960 I mean, this is not your grandmother's monogamy. This is 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.040 women being the gatekeepers of how they want their partnerships 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:29.040 to be. Whether it's they want traditional monogamy like the 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.400 grandmother had, or they want which is I doubt exactly 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.760 the way your grandmother had to or they want a 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:40.360 much more open potential of romantic and sexual relationships with 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.840 other people, but they want a primary partner at home. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.959 We get to choose. Now, this is the first time 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.240 in history, like women get to make that choice. It's 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.000 all different. Now, are you married yeah, do you can 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.880 mask it? Do you have another marriage? Well, we have 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.920 a very flexible and fluid agreement that if we want 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.520 to do something, we would talk, talk about it and 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.080 make decisions together. And I think, um, you know, unfortunately 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.200 I'm really really busy, so I don't know if I 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.440 get to take advantage of that potential agreement. UM. I 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:18.360 think the fantasy of the freedom of that makes the 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:25.360 um makes the relationship much more um, much more safe. 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.320 Like it's kind of like if you know you can 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.199 have freedom to do what you want because you're you know, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.720 your relationship is super solid and it brings like a 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:40.400 different level of trust and and connection. So here's my 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.239 question around that, because to me, I'm like, I've always 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:50.160 equated sex with love, love with sex. It's changed now 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.800 through you know, doing some work in therapy and all 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.800 those things. So I kind of thinking of it now 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.520 it's like, well, why why do how does this this? 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:05.719 Like why like why go somewhere else for sex? Like 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.560 like what is what is really truely? Oh, you just 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.840 want to be able to see someone else, Like shouldn't 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.280 there just be I don't know. I guess I just 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:19.400 struggle with the fact of them wanting to go somewhere 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:24.520 else to have sex outside the marriage. It's like the 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.199 marriage is so much more than just sex and and 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.920 and I don't know is that like does that make 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:31.319 I agree? It's hard for me to wrap my head 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.600 around that concept as well. Well. I think a couple 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:37.840 of things that you said, you know, there's a should 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.880 or shouldn't, and then there's them wanting to. What if 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.440 it's you, you know, like you don't want to, and 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.480 that's fine for you. That's a decision that you make 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.920 and you're gonna want to be with someone who probably 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.400 feels the same way. But there's a lot of people 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.160 out there that I don't feel like that's what should 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.080 or shouldn't happen. They might feel differently, and so for 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.360 them is different, you know. Like I work with a 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.280 lot of couples who have there's a wide range of monogamy. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.600 I call it the monogamy continuum. And for them, I 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.240 helped them talk about the monogamy gap, like does one 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.960 of them want a little bit more fluidity or more 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.840 openness than the other one, Like that's the problem. It's 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.439 not that they should or shouldn't, or they want or 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.880 they don't. I find that people have all kinds of 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.320 ranges of what they want or don't want. Like one 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.439 might say I want an open relationship and the other 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.000 one says, I don't want that at all. But then 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.319 when you ask them what does that mean, they might 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:36.760 mean like, I don't know, I just want to have 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.920 like a threesome someday. That's my fantasy. But one's like, oh, well, 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:42.840 that's not what I thought. I thought you meant like 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.839 you were going to go off and fall in love 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.800 with other people, And that person is like, god, no, 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.240 I would never want that. You know, Like we have 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.000 this black and white idea of what these things mean, 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:56.240 but it's very nuanced and subtle for actually the actual 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.800 people that are thinking about it. You know, it's ideas 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.920 to communicate about it and try to have an open 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:08.200 conversation and then if it does happen though, because I 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.320 think we've had we've had a few people on right 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.439 cat were the conversations where you know, um, they were 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.040 both kind of allowed to but then when he did 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.320 or it wasn't, they changed their mind. They changed their 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.839 mind later because I feel like that trust peace or 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.040 the insecurity piece comes in and then now you have 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:26.800 a whole other can of worms that you now have 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.600 to work on within your marriage, and that bomb that 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.920 you have as a husband and wife has now just 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:38.120 been um, you know, hurt because there's now this other 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.800 person that came into the marriage and now you're having 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.160 to deal with trust issues and insecurities and it's like 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:51.600 is that worth that potential outcome? Well, you know, monogamy 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:57.040 is no longer defined by morality, it's defined by um honesty. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.920 So the problem was not that they opened their marth. 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.560 The problem was that they weren't honest about something. You 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.200 can somebody else can ruin your marriage, whether you're open 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.360 or closed, or you're you know, pretend monogamous or not. 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.439 Like the amount of affairs today, there's seventy million people 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:20.680 on Ashley Madison, which is a million seventy million worldwide, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.320 and there's a lot of people that are cheating. So 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.800 if you think that you know that everybody really who's 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.320 married is monogamous, like that's a lie. They're not monogamous, 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:34.920 they're non consensually non monogamous. They're pretending they're monogamous. So 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.560 the problem is not that you know, somebody else comes 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.640 into your marriage and ruins it The problem is that 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.480 people are not honest about what they're doing. So the 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.480 majority of people that are having successful open relationships, I 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.040 don't see them, right, It's like a it's like a 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.480 self selected population. They don't come to therapy because it's 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.040 working for them. So I don't see those people. I 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.000 might set the people that you're talking about. Where something 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.600 happens it does work, it's usually because they broke their 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:07.720 monogamy agreement. They had an agreement somebody. You know, you 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.760 can still cheat in an open relationship. You know, somebody 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.560 did not follow the agreement that they made, And that's 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.200 really the problem. It's the you know, you said you 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.720 were going to do this and you didn't, or so 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.600 how do you come back from that? Like, what do 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.640 you do then to come back from that place? I 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.360 don't know if there's coming back ever. I don't think 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:33.240 ever come back after an affair or a trust breach 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.160 or whatever you want to call it depends on what 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.280 it is. Um there's no going back. I mean, I 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.040 think if you try to go back, starting to end 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.720 up here again, I think you can make a choice. 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.400 Depending like there's a lot of reasons that people cheat, 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.400 but depending on whether this is a can opener, you know, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.800 you cheated because you want out, or it's um a 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.800 wake up call, like, oh my god, I can't believe 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.840 this happen, and we gotta like think about what we're 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.120 gonna do here, or how this, how this is affecting us. 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.080 Like sometimes it's UM, maybe the best thing that could 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.000 have happened, because now we've got to really look at 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:17.920 what were we thinking. Or maybe it's UM a way 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.400 to steer us in a different direction, you know, So 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.880 depending on what it is, you have to sort of 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.160 draw a line in the sand and say, Okay, whatever 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.040 vision we had of what our relationship was, it's not 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.960 what really was going on. And so now we can 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.080 decide do we want a different relationship going forward. If 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.280 we do, we can have it with each other, but 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.400 we're going to have to have a whole new agreement 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.440 and a whole new conversation about what our monogamy is 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.120 gonna look like. So we had friends and I won't 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.280 go into it deeper, that kind of had that situation 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.120 Janna that I don't know if they considered UM, I 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.280 guess it was considered open, but then there was not honesty, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.480 and what would be considered a cheating situation, Shin, and 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.199 it was that's they basically had to go back and 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.639 you know, rediscover what they wanted to make their marriage. 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.000 They are still married and they stayed married, but they 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.360 changed a lot of things about that. I don't think 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.439 that they're still participating in that situation. I think they 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.800 decided that that wasn't something that worked for them once 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.199 they went past those boundaries. But I do think it's 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.960 I mean, I think it's possible when people change their 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.120 mind and you know, or something didn't work for them 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.640 or whatever. But like you said, it was the lack 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.359 of honesty at the end of the day that got 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.840 them to that point. Yeah, I think I think the 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:45.119 honesty is the I mean, it's the distrust is the killer. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.240 That's which killed my marriage for sure. It's like, just 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.040 be honest, I don't want to discover, like you know, 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.159 let's remember begging, like just tell me, like so I 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:55.960 can just I just can know, or and like and 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:57.840 then like we can we can work on this. It's 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.359 but the dis honesty that's I mean, that's that's the 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.120 that's the killer. And you're right, you don't you don't 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.200 come back from that you've got to either go, okay, 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:05.879 that we're going to make a new marriage and this 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.280 is new boundaries and a new a new vowsheet what 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.000 we will and we won't do, or you go your 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:19.080 separate ways. But yeah, it's it's a it's a whole 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:20.720 new world out there. I mean, that's it's a hard 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:22.399 one to wrap around me. You're right, we're used to 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.040 kind of like the black and white situation, and it's 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:30.639 you know, this situation is not that well. And you 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.280 know there's an assumption I think that when you get 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.600 married or you have a committed partnership that you know 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.240 saying once I do and I promise I'll never cheat 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:42.679 on you, it was gonna last for the rest of 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.399 your life. Like we live a long time. You know, 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:51.400 we're supposed to be together ten, fifty, sixty, sometimes seventy 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:57.440 years together. And if you don't revisit what that means, 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.439 often you're gonna go through a lot of eases in 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.280 your life. You're different at forty than you were at five, 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.000 totally different at fifty, and totally different at sixty. And 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:10.960 you know that's like kind of like saying, well, I 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:12.840 told you I loved you when I married you, so 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.159 I'll let you know if I change my mind. You know, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.399 like you have to revisit the whole idea of what 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.359 it means to be together and what it means to 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.960 stay sexy, and what it means to keep your relationship alive, 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.000 and what it means to be honest. You know. Are 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.320 we supposed to tell each other every time we masturbate 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.920 in the shower or every time we have a fantasy 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.800 of someone else? Like, what does it mean to cheat? 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.200 And maybe that conversation will change? Maybe you don't want 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.199 to know. Maybe it's too much honesty, you know, but 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.840 to really be explicit about that? Could she wait? Are 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.959 you saying that cheating could be if someone masturbates and 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:54.879 has a fantasy, sometimes people feel really betrayed. Really, I 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:56.760 would not want to know. I don't want to want 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.760 to know what I'm thinking about feeling very I think 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.000 I if my last for sure, but any time before 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.680 that or after, I wouldn't have I don't want to 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.800 I don't want to know. Lily thinking about like, just 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.880 I'm gonna pretend that you think it's me and real 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:18.600 cute little ni tights and whatever. Well, let me ask 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.040 you a question. Would you feel like they were cheating 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.160 if you walked in and they were masturbating and looking 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.119 at porn. So porn is interesting for me just because 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:32.560 of my past relationship and because I know what what 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.919 kind of led to the eventual addiction. I think with 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.120 my with my ex. So I think when you it's 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.119 a slippery slope when people watch porn because you're getting 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:48.360 this insane fix watching these two couples or three couples 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.760 or a girl sucked the dick or whatever it is 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.760 that it then you become almost numb to the porn. 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.239 So then you now want it in person, or you 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.960 want it, you want that to happen in real time 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.960 to you. And so I think, and that's the experience 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:09.120 that I've had with um a partner, And so I think, 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.439 you know, my new relationship, I mean, you know, we 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.399 haven't obviously discussed that, but I mean I don't. I 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:18.040 almost don't want to, just because I just want to 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.760 kind of put the blinders on right now since it's 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.399 a new relationship. I mean, I love it, but I 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.680 think it would definitely offend me more if I knew 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.479 he was thinking about that would seem more personal. Yeah, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.639 him thinking about another woman that I might know or 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.320 that whatever versus. Even though I still don't love the 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.439 porn thing, I wouldn't feel as much like it was 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.280 like a cheating situation than like thinking about like the 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:43.680 friend I have down the ship. I mean, they have 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.159 porn videos and I v F things. I mean, guys, 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.080 need you know what I mean? Like that either walking 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.040 into these rooms and watching these vhs of porn, like, well, 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.160 your wife is waiting for you to get the sperm out, 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.719 you know, so it's like, you know, I don't know, 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.679 I just give you a video. But yes, so I 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:04.800 see what you're saying, what you're asking for. Sure, I 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.199 definitely say two. And that's something that I haven't I 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.040 guess I haven't really thought about. But yeah, with my ex, 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:12.440 for sure, that would have like sent me through the roof. 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.080 But now I don't know. I haven't, I haven't been 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:18.879 happen and I haven't had to touch that, and I 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.080 don't I never had a problem with it before. I'll 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:25.520 say that. Sure, I mean, there's no right answer. You know, 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.080 it's really about the two of you. Like I don't 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.520 have any judgment about anyone's monogamy, but I do think 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.960 that the important thing is to make it explicit so 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.960 that you don't walk in on him, and because you've 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.400 never talked about it before, you know, say you're still 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:43.480 together for five years from now. I hope you are, 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:45.400 if this is the one for you. But you walk 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.120 in on him five years from now and he's master 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:48.880 being to porn and you go, oh my god, you're 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:50.920