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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast

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Speaker 1: Thursday Therapy. Welcome, I'm gonna do my It's Thursday therapy.

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Speaker 1: I got like anxiety when you said that. I was like,

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Speaker 1: are we having a therapy session every Thursday? Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is happening. Okay. So road rage, Okay, do you

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Speaker 1: have it? Not? Really? No, it's fascinating to me people

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Speaker 1: that have road rage. It really is. I mean, like

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Speaker 1: I got frustrated on the way here because they were

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Speaker 1: going slow, but like, no, I typically don't. That's fine,

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Speaker 1: You're like, okay, come on, dude, Like I don't like

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Speaker 1: it when a person drives the exact speed limit. Don't

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Speaker 1: do that or slower because if you're going if the

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Speaker 1: speed limits forty, and then that means then I'm really

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Speaker 1: we're only going like eight and that's just not acceptable.

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Speaker 1: Oh I just just cool a little, like you don't know,

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Speaker 1: you don't, because then usually you're gonna fall below the

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Speaker 1: speed limit. Right, if you're a forty at the dots

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Speaker 1: be limit person, you're gonna spat up a couple. Just

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Speaker 1: speed up just a little bit, yeah, just a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But like sure that bothers me. So I I'm new

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Speaker 1: to the freeway right freeway driving, I accidentally and mind you,

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Speaker 1: it was not a massive cut off at all, like

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Speaker 1: I've been where my little triangle light thing wasn't even

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Speaker 1: on to show that the car was close to me.

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Speaker 1: This big old, massive truck. Let me just preface it

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Speaker 1: with that. So I'm moving over into the fast lane

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Speaker 1: and so again he's he's behind me, not speeding up,

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Speaker 1: not anything. But the second that I move to the left,

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Speaker 1: you've got a little closer. But again the little light

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Speaker 1: thing still wasn't on. So I go left. It's like

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Speaker 1: I ruined his entire day. She's gets so he speeds

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Speaker 1: up so sped up so fast to the back of

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Speaker 1: my jeep and then starts swerving his big truck like

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Speaker 1: side to side, and I'm like, what what did I

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Speaker 1: How did I possibly just ruined your your day? Like

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Speaker 1: that just be and I didn't even cut you off. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my light was not I'm gonna keep going back to that.

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Speaker 1: That's a kind of my light was on my little

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Speaker 1: side whatever. But so it's just and then I think

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Speaker 1: back to men that I've dated that have had the

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Speaker 1: worst road rage, and I'm like, it's a guy thing.

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Speaker 1: It's like I really think it is. It's a guy thing.

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Speaker 1: It's just like wild to me because I'm like, why

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Speaker 1: do you let them affect you that bad? And that's

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Speaker 1: my thing. I'm like, yeah, I might get a little frustrated,

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Speaker 1: but for to actually ruin my couple of minutes after that,

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Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it. And also it's slightly

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Speaker 1: terrifying because you never know who's like, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: used to get into it with one of my access

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Speaker 1: because he would do the big truck move and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this person could have a gun, could get out of

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Speaker 1: the car. I'm like, it does It's not that big

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Speaker 1: of a deal. So, yeah, they cut you off lumber.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you didn't get a wreck. But I will say

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Speaker 1: I agree with you on the Slow Show you have

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Speaker 1: to go somewhere. But then that's when I was going

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Speaker 1: back to I go, uh, there's God's in a roadblock

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Speaker 1: in my in my way for a reason. There's always

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Speaker 1: like I wasn't supposed to be there at this time.

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Speaker 1: It sucks because I hate to be late. That's the

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Speaker 1: only time because I just don't like to be late. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know me neither. Thursday Therapy Thursday Therapy wind Down Edition.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: listen to the show, it's fun to do the whole

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Speaker 1: um pop culture chat, have some amazing guests come on.

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Speaker 1: But I want to dive deeper on Thursday episodes with

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Speaker 1: certain topics because there's a lot of people that listen

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Speaker 1: to the show for some of the therapy stuff and

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Speaker 1: they want to and might not have the means or

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Speaker 1: the capability to be able to go to therapy. And

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Speaker 1: so we're going to get some amazing therapist experts on

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Speaker 1: the show for Thursdays to dive into different topics that

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Speaker 1: can be helpful for everyone, not just my life, but

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Speaker 1: for other people that might be dealing with things that

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Speaker 1: and they can't get to a therapy. I love that

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Speaker 1: it's a great idea, and because we've been so open

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Speaker 1: about therapy, might as well do a therapy Thursday. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And we are going to have. Her name is Dr

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Speaker 1: Tammy Nelson, So she's a PhD. She's a sex in

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Speaker 1: a Relationship expert. She's a speaker, author, licensed psychotherapist UM

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Speaker 1: thirty years of experience. She's works with couples, individuals, and

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Speaker 1: she says open relationships have soared since the pandemic, with

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Speaker 1: a forty five percent increase in inquiries about discussing the

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Speaker 1: subject with partners in the last three months. So she's done.

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Speaker 1: Like Ted talks about some of this stuff, and it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because one of our things too, she says. Um

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Speaker 1: seventy of those in open relationships said that they were

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Speaker 1: somewhat or very fulfilled, compared to twent in closed relationships.

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Speaker 1: Among those who are not yet an open relationships, seventy

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Speaker 1: people in monogamous relationships want to introduce some for of nonmonogamy.

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Speaker 1: They just aren't sure how to start the conversation. Couples

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Speaker 1: are more interested in spicing things up a bit, says

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Speaker 1: Dr Nelson, So we're gonna have run. Wow. She's got

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Speaker 1: a book too, by the way, Open Monogamy, a Guide

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Speaker 1: to co creating your Ideal relationship Agreement Book. Hi Tammy, Hi,

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Speaker 1: how are you welcome to therapy Thursday? How you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm great? How are you? I'm good? I'm good. I

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Speaker 1: really wish Kristen was here at this for this conversation too,

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Speaker 1: because I'm so excited to dive into this, I guess

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Speaker 1: conversation about what I think couples are maybe too afraid

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Speaker 1: to say that they want in a relationship because from

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Speaker 1: just reading some of the percentages about how you said

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Speaker 1: that seven you say sent of these are open, said

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Speaker 1: that they, you know, were more fully uh businically happier

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Speaker 1: than being in a closed relationship. And I just I personally,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you don't know my background at all,

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Speaker 1: but I would have a very hard time having an

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Speaker 1: open relationship and for me, But I'm just curious, like

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Speaker 1: since the pandemic, Like, why do you think since the pandemic? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think a few things. One is that, um, you know, people,

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Speaker 1: especially young people and I don't know how old you

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Speaker 1: guys are, but your young nearing forties, okay, perfect, you're

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Speaker 1: in that sweet spot. I think that people spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time um together in a in a very small,

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Speaker 1: um contracted environment where they were overly responsible for family,

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Speaker 1: they were working from home, there were lot of stressors

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Speaker 1: and um concerned about uh extended family and not a

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Speaker 1: lot of community. And so two things happen. One people

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Speaker 1: realized my partner can't be everything to me, and two

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Speaker 1: they joined me crazy. And the other piece is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people found that you know, maybe living

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Speaker 1: in a village is not a bad idea, Like maybe

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Speaker 1: we get outsourced someone to go search for search and

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Speaker 1: hunt for toilet paper, and maybe we get outsource someone

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Speaker 1: for even for our sexual needs. Maybe we could outsourced

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Speaker 1: someone who's going to stay home and and homeschool the

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Speaker 1: kids because that's not my thing. Maybe we could homeschool

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Speaker 1: um kids and I can go back to work, you know,

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Speaker 1: like maybe it takes more than just the two of us,

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Speaker 1: Like maybe we need more resources. Because you couldn't bring

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Speaker 1: in your family, your parents because you were afraid to

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Speaker 1: get them sick. You didn't have preschool or um any

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Speaker 1: kind of after school activities to support you. You didn't

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Speaker 1: have work to go to, so you didn't have a

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Speaker 1: community at work. There really was this sort of awakening

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Speaker 1: like wow, it's not good to be isolated, and maybe

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Speaker 1: we need to go back to sort of this tribal

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Speaker 1: idea of everybody working together to make things easier. So

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Speaker 1: are you talking polygamy then no, Polygamy means being married

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Speaker 1: to more than one person, because when I hear what

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Speaker 1: I like, I like to have a person like you

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Speaker 1: knowing not just about sexual Yeah, it's just about having

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Speaker 1: someone help well the other ways was you know, is

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Speaker 1: a legal term. It means being married to more than

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Speaker 1: one person, just like monogamy means being married to one person.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we use monogamy interchangeably with sexual fidelity,

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Speaker 1: which will do today just for the sake of simplicity.

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Speaker 1: But polygamy was traditionally about men having a bunch of wives.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't about wo men having a bunch of husband

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Speaker 1: It was really working or you know, for men. And

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Speaker 1: a lot has changed over the past century. You know

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Speaker 1: when we talk about monogamy today and um, this sort

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Speaker 1: of flexible, fluid definition of monogamy um for this newer generation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is not your grandmother's monogamy. This is

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Speaker 1: women being the gatekeepers of how they want their partnerships

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Speaker 1: to be. Whether it's they want traditional monogamy like the

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Speaker 1: grandmother had, or they want which is I doubt exactly

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Speaker 1: the way your grandmother had to or they want a

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Speaker 1: much more open potential of romantic and sexual relationships with

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Speaker 1: other people, but they want a primary partner at home.

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Speaker 1: We get to choose. Now, this is the first time

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Speaker 1: in history, like women get to make that choice. It's

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Speaker 1: all different. Now, are you married yeah, do you can

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Speaker 1: mask it? Do you have another marriage? Well, we have

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Speaker 1: a very flexible and fluid agreement that if we want

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Speaker 1: to do something, we would talk, talk about it and

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Speaker 1: make decisions together. And I think, um, you know, unfortunately

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Speaker 1: I'm really really busy, so I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: get to take advantage of that potential agreement. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think the fantasy of the freedom of that makes the

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Speaker 1: um makes the relationship much more um, much more safe.

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Speaker 1: Like it's kind of like if you know you can

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Speaker 1: have freedom to do what you want because you're you know,

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Speaker 1: your relationship is super solid and it brings like a

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Speaker 1: different level of trust and and connection. So here's my

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Speaker 1: question around that, because to me, I'm like, I've always

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Speaker 1: equated sex with love, love with sex. It's changed now

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Speaker 1: through you know, doing some work in therapy and all

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Speaker 1: those things. So I kind of thinking of it now

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, why why do how does this this?

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Speaker 1: Like why like why go somewhere else for sex? Like

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Speaker 1: like what is what is really truely? Oh, you just

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Speaker 1: want to be able to see someone else, Like shouldn't

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Speaker 1: there just be I don't know. I guess I just

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Speaker 1: struggle with the fact of them wanting to go somewhere

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Speaker 1: else to have sex outside the marriage. It's like the

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Speaker 1: marriage is so much more than just sex and and

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Speaker 1: and I don't know is that like does that make

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Speaker 1: I agree? It's hard for me to wrap my head

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Speaker 1: around that concept as well. Well. I think a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that you said, you know, there's a should

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Speaker 1: or shouldn't, and then there's them wanting to. What if

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Speaker 1: it's you, you know, like you don't want to, and

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Speaker 1: that's fine for you. That's a decision that you make

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna want to be with someone who probably

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Speaker 1: feels the same way. But there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: out there that I don't feel like that's what should

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Speaker 1: or shouldn't happen. They might feel differently, and so for

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Speaker 1: them is different, you know. Like I work with a

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Speaker 1: lot of couples who have there's a wide range of monogamy.

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Speaker 1: I call it the monogamy continuum. And for them, I

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Speaker 1: helped them talk about the monogamy gap, like does one

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Speaker 1: of them want a little bit more fluidity or more

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Speaker 1: openness than the other one, Like that's the problem. It's

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Speaker 1: not that they should or shouldn't, or they want or

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Speaker 1: they don't. I find that people have all kinds of

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Speaker 1: ranges of what they want or don't want. Like one

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Speaker 1: might say I want an open relationship and the other

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Speaker 1: one says, I don't want that at all. But then

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Speaker 1: when you ask them what does that mean, they might

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Speaker 1: mean like, I don't know, I just want to have

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Speaker 1: like a threesome someday. That's my fantasy. But one's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not what I thought. I thought you meant like

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Speaker 1: you were going to go off and fall in love

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Speaker 1: with other people, And that person is like, god, no,

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Speaker 1: I would never want that. You know, Like we have

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Speaker 1: this black and white idea of what these things mean,

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Speaker 1: but it's very nuanced and subtle for actually the actual

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Speaker 1: people that are thinking about it. You know, it's ideas

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Speaker 1: to communicate about it and try to have an open

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Speaker 1: conversation and then if it does happen though, because I

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Speaker 1: think we've had we've had a few people on right

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Speaker 1: cat were the conversations where you know, um, they were

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Speaker 1: both kind of allowed to but then when he did

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Speaker 1: or it wasn't, they changed their mind. They changed their

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Speaker 1: mind later because I feel like that trust peace or

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Speaker 1: the insecurity piece comes in and then now you have

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Speaker 1: a whole other can of worms that you now have

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Speaker 1: to work on within your marriage, and that bomb that

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Speaker 1: you have as a husband and wife has now just

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Speaker 1: been um, you know, hurt because there's now this other

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Speaker 1: person that came into the marriage and now you're having

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Speaker 1: to deal with trust issues and insecurities and it's like

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Speaker 1: is that worth that potential outcome? Well, you know, monogamy

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Speaker 1: is no longer defined by morality, it's defined by um honesty.

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Speaker 1: So the problem was not that they opened their marth.

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Speaker 1: The problem was that they weren't honest about something. You

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Speaker 1: can somebody else can ruin your marriage, whether you're open

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Speaker 1: or closed, or you're you know, pretend monogamous or not.

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Speaker 1: Like the amount of affairs today, there's seventy million people

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Speaker 1: on Ashley Madison, which is a million seventy million worldwide,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people that are cheating. So

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Speaker 1: if you think that you know that everybody really who's

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Speaker 1: married is monogamous, like that's a lie. They're not monogamous,

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Speaker 1: they're non consensually non monogamous. They're pretending they're monogamous. So

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Speaker 1: the problem is not that you know, somebody else comes

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Speaker 1: into your marriage and ruins it The problem is that

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Speaker 1: people are not honest about what they're doing. So the

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Speaker 1: majority of people that are having successful open relationships, I

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Speaker 1: don't see them, right, It's like a it's like a

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Speaker 1: self selected population. They don't come to therapy because it's

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Speaker 1: working for them. So I don't see those people. I

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Speaker 1: might set the people that you're talking about. Where something

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Speaker 1: happens it does work, it's usually because they broke their

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Speaker 1: monogamy agreement. They had an agreement somebody. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can still cheat in an open relationship. You know, somebody

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Speaker 1: did not follow the agreement that they made, And that's

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Speaker 1: really the problem. It's the you know, you said you

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Speaker 1: were going to do this and you didn't, or so

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Speaker 1: how do you come back from that? Like, what do

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Speaker 1: you do then to come back from that place? I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there's coming back ever. I don't think

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Speaker 1: ever come back after an affair or a trust breach

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Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it depends on what

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Speaker 1: it is. Um there's no going back. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think if you try to go back, starting to end

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Speaker 1: up here again, I think you can make a choice.

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Speaker 1: Depending like there's a lot of reasons that people cheat,

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Speaker 1: but depending on whether this is a can opener, you know,

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Speaker 1: you cheated because you want out, or it's um a

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Speaker 1: wake up call, like, oh my god, I can't believe

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Speaker 1: this happen, and we gotta like think about what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do here, or how this, how this is affecting us.

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Speaker 1: Like sometimes it's UM, maybe the best thing that could

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Speaker 1: have happened, because now we've got to really look at

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Speaker 1: what were we thinking. Or maybe it's UM a way

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Speaker 1: to steer us in a different direction, you know, So

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Speaker 1: depending on what it is, you have to sort of

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Speaker 1: draw a line in the sand and say, Okay, whatever

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Speaker 1: vision we had of what our relationship was, it's not

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Speaker 1: what really was going on. And so now we can

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Speaker 1: decide do we want a different relationship going forward. If

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Speaker 1: we do, we can have it with each other, but

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Speaker 1: we're going to have to have a whole new agreement

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Speaker 1: and a whole new conversation about what our monogamy is

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Speaker 1: gonna look like. So we had friends and I won't

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Speaker 1: go into it deeper, that kind of had that situation

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Speaker 1: Janna that I don't know if they considered UM, I

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Speaker 1: guess it was considered open, but then there was not honesty,

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Speaker 1: and what would be considered a cheating situation, Shin, and

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Speaker 1: it was that's they basically had to go back and

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Speaker 1: you know, rediscover what they wanted to make their marriage.

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Speaker 1: They are still married and they stayed married, but they

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Speaker 1: changed a lot of things about that. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that they're still participating in that situation. I think they

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Speaker 1: decided that that wasn't something that worked for them once

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Speaker 1: they went past those boundaries. But I do think it's

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's possible when people change their

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Speaker 1: mind and you know, or something didn't work for them

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But like you said, it was the lack

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Speaker 1: of honesty at the end of the day that got

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Speaker 1: them to that point. Yeah, I think I think the

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Speaker 1: honesty is the I mean, it's the distrust is the killer.

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Speaker 1: That's which killed my marriage for sure. It's like, just

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Speaker 1: be honest, I don't want to discover, like you know,

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Speaker 1: let's remember begging, like just tell me, like so I

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Speaker 1: can just I just can know, or and like and

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Speaker 1: then like we can we can work on this. It's

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Speaker 1: but the dis honesty that's I mean, that's that's the

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Speaker 1: that's the killer. And you're right, you don't you don't

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Speaker 1: come back from that you've got to either go, okay,

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Speaker 1: that we're going to make a new marriage and this

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Speaker 1: is new boundaries and a new a new vowsheet what

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Speaker 1: we will and we won't do, or you go your

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Speaker 1: separate ways. But yeah, it's it's a it's a whole

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Speaker 1: new world out there. I mean, that's it's a hard

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Speaker 1: one to wrap around me. You're right, we're used to

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Speaker 1: kind of like the black and white situation, and it's

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Speaker 1: you know, this situation is not that well. And you

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Speaker 1: know there's an assumption I think that when you get

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Speaker 1: married or you have a committed partnership that you know

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Speaker 1: saying once I do and I promise I'll never cheat

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Speaker 1: on you, it was gonna last for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life. Like we live a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to be together ten, fifty, sixty, sometimes seventy

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Speaker 1: years together. And if you don't revisit what that means,

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Speaker 1: often you're gonna go through a lot of eases in

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Speaker 1: your life. You're different at forty than you were at five,

329
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Speaker 1: totally different at fifty, and totally different at sixty. And

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Speaker 1: you know that's like kind of like saying, well, I

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Speaker 1: told you I loved you when I married you, so

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Speaker 1: I'll let you know if I change my mind. You know,

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Speaker 1: like you have to revisit the whole idea of what

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Speaker 1: it means to be together and what it means to

335
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Speaker 1: stay sexy, and what it means to keep your relationship alive,

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Speaker 1: and what it means to be honest. You know. Are

337
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Speaker 1: we supposed to tell each other every time we masturbate

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Speaker 1: in the shower or every time we have a fantasy

339
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Speaker 1: of someone else? Like, what does it mean to cheat?

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Speaker 1: And maybe that conversation will change? Maybe you don't want

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Speaker 1: to know. Maybe it's too much honesty, you know, but

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Speaker 1: to really be explicit about that? Could she wait? Are

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Speaker 1: you saying that cheating could be if someone masturbates and

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Speaker 1: has a fantasy, sometimes people feel really betrayed. Really, I

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00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 1: would not want to know. I don't want to want

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Speaker 1: to know what I'm thinking about feeling very I think

347
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Speaker 1: I if my last for sure, but any time before

348
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: that or after, I wouldn't have I don't want to

349
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Speaker 1: I don't want to know. Lily thinking about like, just

350
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna pretend that you think it's me and real

351
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 1: cute little ni tights and whatever. Well, let me ask

352
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: you a question. Would you feel like they were cheating

353
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Speaker 1: if you walked in and they were masturbating and looking

354
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Speaker 1: at porn. So porn is interesting for me just because

355
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Speaker 1: of my past relationship and because I know what what

356
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 1: kind of led to the eventual addiction. I think with

357
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Speaker 1: my with my ex. So I think when you it's

358
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 1: a slippery slope when people watch porn because you're getting

359
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: this insane fix watching these two couples or three couples

360
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 1: or a girl sucked the dick or whatever it is

361
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: that it then you become almost numb to the porn.

362
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Speaker 1: So then you now want it in person, or you

363
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 1: want it, you want that to happen in real time

364
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: to you. And so I think, and that's the experience

365
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 1: that I've had with um a partner, And so I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, my new relationship, I mean, you know, we

367
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 1: haven't obviously discussed that, but I mean I don't. I

368
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 1: almost don't want to, just because I just want to

369
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Speaker 1: kind of put the blinders on right now since it's

370
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Speaker 1: a new relationship. I mean, I love it, but I

371
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 1: think it would definitely offend me more if I knew

372
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,479
Speaker 1: he was thinking about that would seem more personal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: him thinking about another woman that I might know or

374
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Speaker 1: that whatever versus. Even though I still don't love the

375
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Speaker 1: porn thing, I wouldn't feel as much like it was

376
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Speaker 1: like a cheating situation than like thinking about like the

377
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 1: friend I have down the ship. I mean, they have

378
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 1: porn videos and I v F things. I mean, guys,

379
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: need you know what I mean? Like that either walking

380
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Speaker 1: into these rooms and watching these vhs of porn, like, well,

381
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Speaker 1: your wife is waiting for you to get the sperm out,

382
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,719
Speaker 1: you know, so it's like, you know, I don't know,

383
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 1: I just give you a video. But yes, so I

384
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: see what you're saying, what you're asking for. Sure, I

385
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 1: definitely say two. And that's something that I haven't I

386
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: guess I haven't really thought about. But yeah, with my ex,

387
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: for sure, that would have like sent me through the roof.

388
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: But now I don't know. I haven't, I haven't been

389
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: happen and I haven't had to touch that, and I

390
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: don't I never had a problem with it before. I'll

391
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: say that. Sure, I mean, there's no right answer. You know,

392
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: it's really about the two of you. Like I don't

393
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: have any judgment about anyone's monogamy, but I do think

394
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: that the important thing is to make it explicit so

395
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: that you don't walk in on him, and because you've

396
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: never talked about it before, you know, say you're still

397
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: together for five years from now. I hope you are,

398
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: if this is the one for you. But you walk

399
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: in on him five years from now and he's master

400
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: being to porn and you go, oh my god, you're

401
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: cheating on me. And he says, what are you talking about.

402
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: I've been doing this since I was ten, Like, this

403
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with you. Like that's where the

404
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: betrayal comes from. When you have these implicit assumptions about

405
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: what monog can me. It is supposed to be like

406
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: for you, maybe I'm just making this stop for you,

407
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: maybe cheating, and for him, and he's like, this is me,

408
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: this is my private sexual stuff. It has nothing to

409
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: do with you. So it's really more about the conversation

410
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: than it is about like what is cheating and what isn't?

411
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: Because I'm not the I'm not the arbitr of cheating,

412
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: But I'm more interested in helping you to have the

413
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: conversation of like, is it cheating if you send pictures

414
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: of yourself to your ex? Is it cheating? If you

415
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: post pictures of yourself in a bathing suit on TikTok?

416
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: Is it cheating if you you know, friend someone on Facebook?

417
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: Although you guys probably don't use Facebook anymore, but you know,

418
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: like what is these days you have to talk about

419
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: those things? You know, when when I first got married

420
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: to my first husband, that wasn't even a thing, like

421
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: you never talked about that. Today cheating is like it's

422
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: so much more complex, so much more of a conversation

423
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: that you have to have. See, I think I definitely

424
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: think texting someone inappropriately emotionally or whatever, that to me

425
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: is cheating. Now a lot of people won't think that's

426
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: cheating because it's not physical. You tried to nail in

427
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: my brain for years, like Janna, that's still wrong. I'm like, well,

428
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: it was just like a well, and it's like she's saying,

429
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: it's you have to have a conversation on whether you

430
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: think that you know, And I think back to the

431
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: days when I was reaching out while I was still

432
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: in a relationship with guys and reaching out to other

433
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: people to try to get validation, and that's it's still

434
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: crossing a boundary. It's still a line that you shouldn't cross.

435
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: And I you know, I definitely was wrong in those

436
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: situations too in my past, so I can see I

437
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: can see it and go okay, now moving forward, like yeah, hey,

438
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: like no sliding into d M s or texting women

439
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: that you don't really need to be texting. You know

440
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: What's so that would that would that would be a

441
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: huge one for me in moving forward and maybe having

442
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: the conversation versus That's an expectation I think we would

443
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: a lot of us would have, right, But I think,

444
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: but we need to make sure that he feels the

445
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: same way right and anyone right, because I mean, would

446
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: she'd be so pissed if you wanted to nixt d

447
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: ms and saw like him chatting though yeah, yeah, and

448
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: we yes, I mean we've recently had a lot of

449
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: conversations and we've been married for fifteen years, but about

450
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: what is acceptable for each other. But that's something we

451
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: never talked about really before. Interesting because it's like I

452
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: had some assumptions of things that he did or didn't

453
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: do that he was like, what are you talking about?

454
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: I don't you guys also got married so young, Like

455
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: she was saying, like, you got married when you were

456
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: twenty three years old and I was like, well, I

457
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: just kind of assumed that, and he was like, no,

458
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,239
Speaker 1: like what you know, And so we've had a lot

459
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: of conversations around that. So it's interesting because you just

460
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there's things that I assumed he did, he

461
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: doesn't do, There's things you know. It's just like a

462
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: lot of Yeah. So it's just like having those conversations

463
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: and being like, just so we're clear though I'm not

464
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: comfortable with this. That's good though, that's conversation. Yeah. And

465
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: in your book, I mean, what is for our listeners

466
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: that are you know listening right now? What is something is?

467
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: It's a it's a basically create co creating your ideal

468
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: relationship agreement. So it's a guide. So are you basically

469
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: walking through saying like, hey, this is what this this

470
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: looks like, this is what this could look like, or

471
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: how like what kind of guide are we talking about here? Yeah,

472
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's really for anyone to just start the

473
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: conversation like you were saying, you know, even after fifteen

474
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: years of marriage, like wait a minute, where are we

475
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: do you start the conversation with? Um, hey, do we

476
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: tell each other every time we have a what else?

477
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: Or is that like no, I don't want to know

478
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,239
Speaker 1: do we tell each other about you know, poor do

479
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: we Is it okay that I'm texting my ex? You know,

480
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: it's about opening that dialogue. And then what if we

481
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: want to have a threesome with someone, And what if

482
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: we want to go to a party and flirt with

483
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: other people? And what if I'm dancing with somebody else?

484
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: Like all the way across the continuum to you know,

485
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: people who do want to have a more open relationship.

486
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: What if they want to go to a sex party.

487
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: What if they want to have sex with other people

488
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: when they're on vacation, but no, you know, no penetration.

489
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: What if you know, you can get really granular to

490
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: all the way to people who want to be polyamorous

491
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: and say, you know what, just because I'm married, I'm

492
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: not dead. I'm going to fall in love with someone else,

493
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: but I don't ever want to lose you as my

494
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: primary partner. I think there are people who feel that

495
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: they can do that and that they can stay central

496
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: in their marriage or in their primary central relationship. And

497
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, like we said, you know you can have

498
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: betrayal in any of those areas. And so the reeman,

499
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: the guide is a way to have those conversations and also,

500
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: like we said, to have maybe a veto power, like

501
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: like when do I get to say this is not okay,

502
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: we need to take a break, or we need to

503
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: like chill out. I don't like this person, or right,

504
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: I don't like this text, or you know, how do

505
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 1: you have the really tough conversations to make your relationship

506
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: last and to keep it sexy and alive, so you're

507
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: not just the person that's always shutting everything down, like

508
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: you can't talk to them and I don't like they did,

509
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: Like that's not gonna work forever. You want to keep

510
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: things open and juicy and alive, even if it's just

511
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: a fantasy and you never do anything. Sometimes that's more

512
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: than enough. You just talk about stuff that can kind

513
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: of be exciting, never doing anything, um but knowing that

514
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: your partner is open to the ideas, and maybe that's

515
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: all you need, right I kind of I look at

516
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: you know, with relationships, the relationships moving forward, it's if

517
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: there's something that you might think that I won't like,

518
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: then don't do it, you know, if you have to,

519
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: if you have to question, but also talk to me

520
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: like that's like you said, like you gotta if you

521
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: don't know, communicate because I think that's Um, yeah, I

522
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: just I would love to be respected in a relationship

523
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: when I'm not there, like to me and you might

524
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: not know how to respect me. So you have to

525
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: have that conversation with your partner to say this is

526
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: what respect looks like for me and for us. Yeah, yeah,

527
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: you would. You know you want honesty, you know. Sometimes

528
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: not talking about things can make it feel like people

529
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: are keeping secrets. Yeah, and it feels like something's wrong,

530
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: like why didn't you tell me you talk to your

531
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: ex when you were visiting your Then I could feel like, Okay,

532
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: now something's going on, when really it might feel like yeah,

533
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: but I knew it would bother you, so I didn't

534
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: tell you as protecting you, you know. So there's a

535
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: whole kind What does honesty really mean? And how honest

536
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: do you really want me to be with you? And

537
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: what is it to show respect? Like you said? Well,

538
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: thank you Dr Tammy Nelson for coming on the show.

539
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: Everyone get her new book Open Monogamy a Guy to

540
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: co creating your ideal relationship Agreement. Um, thank you so much,

541
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: appreciate you, Thank you guys, and good luck in your

542
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: relationships with you. Ever have any questions, you can email me.

543
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: I'll happy to help you. Okay, thank you? Uh could

544
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: you do it? I mean she had me at the

545
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: beginning though, when she talked about the different like the

546
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: whole tribe helping you, like raise your kids and stuff. Yeah,

547
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: I love a sister wife, thank you, just like I

548
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: just want them sleeping with my man like I would.

549
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: I would love a tribe of of of that. But yeah,

550
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: just just like us all helping out with each other,

551
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: but not sexually. But I do think there is a

552
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: world though, where you can What I love about that

553
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: entire thing is just about the honesty piece. If people

554
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: were honest. The fact there's seventy million people on Ashley

555
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: Madison blows my mind. Yeah, and that's the part that's

556
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: sad because it's never about the affair. It's always about

557
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: the lie. And that was something that you know, my

558
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: therapist in l A, a couple of syrapists always said

559
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: it's always about the deceit, that it's never about the

560
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: act itself. And so if you're open and you're honest

561
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: and you have those communications or if you have that

562
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: communication with each other, like who knows maybe it could

563
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: work and maybe you could have the most beautiful relationship ever.

564
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, you guys both get to have a hall

565
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: pass once a year. I don't know, and never maybe

566
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: maybe you never tell each other because it's just like

567
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: that might be two people's fantasies that end up together, right,

568
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: just like that's not going to be like my fantasy

569
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: was a bubble bath, and like you know, like that's

570
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: where I'm at right now. But I don't know. Maybe

571
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: it's going to change. And if it does change, and

572
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna talk to whoever I'm with, Yeah, and

573
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: they'd be like, hey, this is kind of hot, Yeah,

574
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: kind of like this come home from work. You know.

575
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, Like who knows. But if if,

576
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: if it's like we change, you change just like you

577
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: and you have, like you change, you evolved. You have

578
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: to communicate that change and what your needs with your partner. Yeah. Absolutely,

579
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: I still think that there are some vowels that have

580
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: that are taken in a marriage. And that's the hard

581
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: part that makes me sadly. Maybe it's like my old

582
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: school like even in old school, she's been married. But

583
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like it is I will

584
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: say unfortunately but kind of unfortunately in my view, a

585
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: little bit of an older school way of thinking, and

586
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: I do hate to see that go. Um. I thought

587
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: about that a lot while she was talking. I'm very

588
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: open to hearing everything she has to say. Um, but

589
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: it does kind of make me sad because I think

590
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: there are vowels for a marriage, you know, for a

591
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: reason too. It doesn't mean it can't work for some people,

592
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: I guess too, you know, if that sit there on

593
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: the same page. But I mean, my grandma and grandpa

594
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: were married for seventy years and to the day, I

595
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: mean to the day my grandmas and my grandpa dad

596
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: obviously last year, and my grandma she has this guy

597
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: on the lake that wants to take her on a date,

598
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: and she's just like, I've only dated your grandpa, Like

599
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna and it's like I believe in that

600
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: kind of love. I just do. I haven't. I didn't

601
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: find it for a long time, but I believe I

602
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: want that kind of love, you know. I want that

603
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna do this together. But I know this day

604
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: and age things are different, and I here's what I want.

605
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: I don't want my man on Actuley Madison. Whoever I

606
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: end up with, I do not want him on actually

607
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: mess and I'd rather him talk to me about what

608
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: he's struggling with. So we can I can spice it

609
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: up or do something. Yeah, before they go that route,

610
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: have a conversation and maybe there is a change in

611
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: feelings and maybe we could do this to spice it up.

612
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: I mean, look what it He didn't take an affair

613
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: in y'all's marriage, but it took some hard communication and

614
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: separation and and now you guys are better than ever.

615
00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: So it's like sometimes having those discussions can strengthen marriage

616
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,239
Speaker 1: and relationships. So there's things that can spice it up

617
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: that you don't have to go. I mean, you know,

618
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if, but teach their own just therapy

619
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: there so the therapy same by