WEBVTT - Bryan Fogel 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.400 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to this week's edition of the Bob 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:12.400 Left Sets podcast. My guest is Oscar winning director of 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.600 the movie ch Risk, Ryan Fogel. Ryan, Good to have 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.400 you here, Good to be here now. In this particular case, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.600 I have a bike riding friend and he's going on 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:23.720 and on about ch Risk. But he can see Academy 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.880 screeners and he sees everything. But I'm sitting in front 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.800 of Netflix one night and I start to watch and 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.200 I get hooked. This is at the end of the year, 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.840 long before the Oscar run up, and if you haven't 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.519 seen the movie, the movie is really phenomenal. But my 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.600 first question is you won the Oscar four months ago. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.520 Are you still on a high? March Aapel May. Yeah, got, 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.920 that's as great. What was it mall in March April May? Yeah, 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.280 four months? Um, yeah, I think I think I'm still 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.000 on a high. Overall. Um, it's a it's a surreal 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.560 experience to to go through that, and especially the lead 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.800 up to the Oscars and um, it's exciting and also 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.440 an overwhelming sense of pressure. Um. And so I think 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.520 it took me probably a couple of months just to 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:17.759 decompress from that and but yeah, it was a spectacular experience. 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.559 It was like being on tour of the rock band. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.160 I've mentioned a friend of mine used to work with 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.399 you to management and they would go on the road 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.520 for two years and would take her a year to decompress. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.000 I I I can see that. I mean I was. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.280 The film came out in August of of last year, 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.679 so almost almost a year ago, and the press started 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.960 in July, and I was essentially on a an eight 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:46.160 month NonStop press and promotional tour. UM. And so when 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.960 it ended essentially after the Oscars, it was kind of 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.240 like a all right, now what um? And that was? 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.280 That was really a sum ride. And where do you 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:02.480 keep the oscar? Um? The Oscars? Just sitting in a 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:08.440 hallway the first the first month, UM, I wouldn't let 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.640 it leave my side. I would I would bring it 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.320 to the kitchen, it would come on the bedside table. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.680 And then and then when I would leave the house, 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.799 I was so paranoid, UM that I would like put 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.320 it in like a shoe bag in the trunk of 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.440 my car UM, or just carry it kind of like 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:31.079 inexplicably in a like a shoulder bag. UM. And now 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.800 it seems to kind of have a semi permanent home, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.720 and I've put in a really great security system with 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.760 all sorts of cameras. Really really, let's say hypothetically it 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.919 did get stolen, can you get a replacement I have? 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:52.919 I really have no idea because like they number them, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.519 so I have like Oscar number four thousand, I think 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.440 one thirty six, so I guess that's four thousand, one 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.040 six Oscars in ninety years something like that. And UM, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.840 you know they they like didn't give Netflix one, so 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:09.919 it would be Oscar only went to myself and my 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:16.400 producing UH partner that the Academy recognized, Dan Coogan. So 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.480 I don't really know what what protocol is. UM. I 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.200 do feel like I already need to bring it back 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:28.919 for a polishing, though it starts to age. So now 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.960 that you've first thing, UH, Kobe Bryant was rejected for 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.800 admission just recently to the Academy. Have you tried to 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.440 get in? UM? While I I haven't heard, I think 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.080 they announced UM and UH, you know each of the 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.560 UH it's all through the various branches that decide. So 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:56.520 I was automatically eligible and considered because I won the Oscar. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:02.320 But apparently it's not it's not given. Um so, UM, 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.160 I guess I'm gonna hear sometime the next couple of 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:10.920 weeks or something. UM, I hope the branch let me in. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.040 It's it's by branch. So the so the doc branch, 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:18.080 these members and I and I've been told there's like 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.839 thirty or forty on the committee basically decide who they 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:24.799 allow him to the branch. And I think they allow 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:30.080 him maybe five ten people a year. Um. Well, unlike Kobe, 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.600 you have history in film, so your odds are pretty good, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.560 but you never really know. So let's go back. You're 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.840 from Denver, grew up in Denver, my family is still there, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.839 went to school and Boulder. Uh. Let's go back. What 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.960 did your father do for a living? Um? Wow, this 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.839 is great. Nobody has asked me this, uh in an interview. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:54.880 My dad uh retired from law about I guess probably 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.320 four years ago. And he was a UH. He started 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.840 as a as a us S or attorneys who was 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.400 one of the uh youngest U S district attorneys ever. 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.679 He got a district attorney right out of law school. Um. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.360 And this was in Denver. Yeah, and then he was 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:17.600 a UH. He was a prosecutor Um, he went into 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.760 private practice and most of the at least in the 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.599 first probably two thirds of his career, was mostly criminal law. UM. 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.760 And then on the later part of his practice. My 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.640 dad's seventy five, now, UM, he branched off into all 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.400 sorts of stuff. UM. But uh, yeah, great, great guy. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.640 I got to see him for Father's Day. And why 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.480 did he retire? UM? I think you know, it was 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.680 a combination of I think he called it, you know, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:53.040 I think at about seventy And I think also the 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.240 law practice changed a lot. He was never Um, he 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.599 never had a firm. He was in private practice his 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.839 whole life. He always said, I I didn't want the 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.040 stress of a firm, didn't want the stress of employees. 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.200 I mean he I think he found it stressful enough 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.560 having a paralegal and a secretary and finding good people. UM. 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.360 And I think, you know, I think the the business 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.560 changed a lot. UM. And also I think he just 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:22.200 uh was was ready to kind of you know, he's 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.640 involved in all sorts of other things, a lot of 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:29.120 charity stuff. He just I think he has ah, he 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.800 has a lot of other interests. And your mother, did 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.440 you work outside the home? Um? Growing up? No, I 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:41.080 have an older sister who lives in Denver, married, and 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.320 I have a younger brother who's an artist. You're the 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.040 middle kid in New York and in the middle. Okay, 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.560 so I'm a middle kid too. How much older your 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.240 older sister and how much younger is your younger brother. 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.719 My older sister is uh, almost three years older than me, 0:06:54.360 --> 0:07:00.200 and my younger brother is five years younger than me. 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.680 And I and I guess I was kind of the 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.240 the bully among my family, but not not intentionally. I 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.160 was like getting bullied in school, so I'd come home 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.000 and be a terror. But you're using the term bully. 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.160 How did you bully inside the house? I I don't. 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.280 I'm not quite sure. I mean you would probably have 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.320 to ask my brother. So he said you were the bully. Yeah, 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:29.120 and there was I remember this was probably fifteen years ago. 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.400 Uh so you're you're you're a guy connection. How old 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:37.240 are you today? Uh? Okay, so when you're like almost thirty, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:43.120 what happens? Um my? Um uh yeah, it's actually no, 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.200 it was now. No, it was more like when I 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:51.760 was like and uh and I remember I'm home visiting 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:57.320 and my brother, um uh had he was very very 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:58.920 upset with me and hurt with me. And he had 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.120 never never actually talked to me about this, um and 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.920 he had had like these recollections from from childhood that 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.640 that essentially that you know that I that I you know, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.280 was bullied him and um and I think he was 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.480 right because I was having a hard time in school. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.000 I was always kind of the the little guy getting 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.600 picked on. And so then I would come home from 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.280 school after being picked on and and pick on my 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.480 my younger brother. So do you think playing that role 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:35.120 in school affected your career path of your success? Absolutely? 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.559 I think uh uh. I had a I had a 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:48.600 really stable childhood. From a family perspective. My parents are 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.559 still married. There was no drama in the home. There 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.880 was there was none of that stuff that you hear, 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.040 you know where you know people grow up and have 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.200 parents that are alcohol or addicts or has divorce and 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:06.040 all that stuff. So none of that was um was 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:11.760 was present in my home. Um. But uh uh, for 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.520 whatever reason, I think is as a kid, I grew 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.640 up always feeling like an outsider. I was always I 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.679 was always kind of like the short kid. Uh And 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.880 um and I think as as I became an adult, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.640 especially because cycling, which was a lifelong thing for me. 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.520 Just UM, it's it's a massochistic sport, like you really 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.960 have to really like to suffer, and the guys who 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.480 can suffer the most basically do the best. On top 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:43.480 of that and genetic ability, but a lot of it 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.960 just comes down to how much you're willing to suffer. 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.120 And UM, and I basically done that my whole life, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:56.800 writing and I think UM in Icarus and other things 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:01.080 in my life. UM, I don't know when to UM, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.200 I don't stop. I just I get something in my 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.080 mind and I'll just okay. Well it worked out with Charus. 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.880 Are there are other times when it didn't work out? UM? 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.840 That's an interesting question. UM. Yeah, there was certainly other 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.920 times when when it didn't work out. UM. Before Charus, 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:25.680 I UM essentially right when I when I turned thirty. 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:31.439 UM I. Prior to that, UH, for several years, I 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.000 was in stand up comedy. I was um UH, I 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:42.400 was acting and writing and and UM I basically wrote 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:48.920 UH and starred in UH this play called Utopia and 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.160 opened it up. I wrote it with a with a 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.760 friend of mine, Sam Wilson. And there's a whole story 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.320 behind that. How how how that came together and we 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.840 opened it up in l A. And it became a 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.000 pretty substantial hit. So how many years ago was that this? Uh? 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.000 It started in two thousand three, and then we played 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.880 about three shows in l A. I brought it to 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.319 New York and then it played in New York for 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.600 three and a half years. Uh, and it was. It 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.199 was a big hit. We had productions of it running 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:26.720 in other cities. UM and I did a book, created 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:33.160 a traveling show, UM another show outside of that, UM 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:38.080 and you know, and and and I added inadvertently basically 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.079 trapped myself into this world. I was now essentially the 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.600 Utopia guy, which I would like him too, being probably 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.200 like David Swimmer on Friends, Jason Alexander on Seinfeld. I mean, nobody, 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.840 nobody saw me outside of essentially basically I was the 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:58.040 Gutopia guy. And and and I was. I personally performed 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:04.680 as the star of this product and probably six hundred shows. 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.240 And it was an interesting kind of be careful what 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.840 you wish for, because um, I was a struggling actor, writer, comedian. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.720 Suddenly I basically wrote a role for myself, created the show, 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.400 produced the show, and it was now a hit. Now 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.040 I was trapped in the show and UM, and during 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.880 this period of time, I realized that I really didn't 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.480 want to act anymore, and what I wanted to do 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.760 was was direct and produced because that that, to me, 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:37.840 UM was more akin to my personality, which is being 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.960 able to kind of oversee the bigger picture of it 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.080 and what I found. All of a sudden, as I 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.040 started getting success with the play and I went on 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.160 on auditions auditions for a short amount of time, I 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.520 suddenly would kind of go in and being like, wait, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.480 I'm the I'm the starring creator of this of this 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.800 really really you know, success full show, and now all 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.200 of a sudden, I'm coming in and and auditioning for 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.400 Dorito's commercial or auditioning for you know, a couple of 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.120 lines on a TV show, and it and and and 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.840 I and I didn't like it. So I decided that 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.440 I wasn't going to do that anymore. I didn't I 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.520 had no interest in auditioning, and that I would and 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.400 that I really wanted to direct because I was directing 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.640 UM the show, you know, inadvertently as well by producing it, 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.280 and I was, um, you know, in charge of all 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.440 the casting, and so when cast members would leave the 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.559 show and then other cities of the show. So UM, 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.760 sitting on the other table watching actors audition made me 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.600 never want to audition again. And so I decided that 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.560 I wanted to adapt the play into a movie. And 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:54.080 Sam and I basically adapted it into a screenplay, and UM, 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.280 I wanted to direct it. Held on to direct it, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.960 and it took me about five years to get UM 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.520 what was a million and a half dollars to to 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:09.640 make the film and and it was. It was one 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.680 of the worst experiences of my life. I was supposed 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.040 to have a twenty six day shoot that turned into 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:25.040 a nineteen day shoot. A week into the production, UM, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.400 so we had boarded the entire production. I had found 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:32.200 all my locations, and the financier had decided that he 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.080 was going to try to make this film Non Union 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.680 in Los Angeles with a cast that included Jennifer love 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.760 Hewitt and Rita Wilson and Tom Arnold and Peter Stormare 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.960 and Jamie Lynn Siegler and all these other John Lovitt, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.640 there's all these guys in it, and UM and so 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.760 a week into the production, of course, the the Union 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.160 came knocking saying, Hey, what what are you guys doing. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.640 And instead of ponying up what would have been a 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.920 couple hundred thousand dollars more, they took a week out 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.120 of my shooting schedule. So all of a sudden, I 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.480 had another basically two weeks to do what was supposed 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.960 to be done in three weeks. UM. And I was 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.240 given eight days to do my director's cut. Uh. And 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.680 under the d g A the Director's guild, Um, you're required. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.120 The director is required I think a minimum of six 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.080 or eight weeks. And the film was non d g A, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.200 which was the lesson that I learned not to make 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.920 a non union film over again. And I was given 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.320 eight days and um and then uh, they decided not 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.600 to sell the film, and they decided that they would 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.640 release it straight onto on demand. UM. So they put 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.440 it into theaters on a Sunday at two o'clock in 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.240 the morning, at two o'clock in the afternoon, uh, to 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.240 pretend that it was in theaters now. And so of 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.520 course there was no money ever spent to market the film. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.760 There's no money to promote the film, and the film 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.280 left me in director's jail. I had invested the last 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.880 amount of money that I had into the film, and 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.440 I came out of this experience essentially broke and beaten up, 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:11.120 a really really depressed and and I went through a 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.440 really really hard time and I didn't know, uh if 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.120 I was going to be able to uh continue to 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.880 find another place within the entertainment industry to continue to create. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:28.520 And I started looking at other businesses, and I started 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.640 getting back into cycling, and cycling for me was essentially 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.600 my therapy. And and so I was riding my bike 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:37.920 a ton, trying to figure out what I was going 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.200 to do with my life and how I was going 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.880 to pay my bills. UM. I was even thinking about 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:52.080 moving back to Colorado, and Lance confessed and multiple tours 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.760 de France, and it was now basically the beginning of 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:02.000 and Any confesses. And I'd been really kind of back 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:06.960 into shape on the bike. And you know, everybody in 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.000 the sport and anybody Rise always a was wondering did 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.199 he dope or not? And be you know, I think 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.840 anybody who's ever been into endurance sports or real a 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.360 real athlete wonders, Hey, what what would these drugs do 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.480 for me? What would these pds do for me? And 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.320 did you believe he was a doper before he confessed, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:36.080 I was on the fence, um because he was like 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:40.320 my hero, like uh As, I think he was way 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.160 beyond cycling. I mean, he was arguably the biggest athlete 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.359 on planet Earth and the most well known athlete on 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.119 planet Earth, much more so than even Lebron James or 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:53.120 because he was he was so international. Um So there 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.080 was that part of me that always believed, no, he 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.760 couldn't know, he wouldn't. But then as the years went 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:02.359 by and you and you realize that everybody else you 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.679 know had confessed doping, a big caught for doping. The 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.400 guy got second place, third place, and then you'd read 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.240 all these like journals basically going whatever these numbers and 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.080 his watts per kilo and all this stuff seems unfathomable. 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:21.920 But um, I wasn't so shocked that he had doped. 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.160 But what really caught me about it was the way 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.639 that they got him, which was they got Lance kind 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.680 of like al Capone on tax evasion. They never caught 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.000 him how the system was supposed to catch him, which is, 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:40.000 you know, the guy uh had had managed to this 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:45.200 day to pass every single but there was one where 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.000 he was it was a positive and he explained it away. Yeah, 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.159 that but that was back way way into in the 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.199 early part of his career. If I remember, that was 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:58.440 like and they didn't kind of really have the true evidence. Um, 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.960 but I mean the way that they get him is 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.200 basically by launching a criminal investigation and all of his 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:09.959 teammates now under essentially you know, a criminal testimony, admit 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:15.680 to doping in exchange for essentially immunity, and rat Lands out, 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.240 you know, in the process. And I'm going, wait, wait, wait, 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.600 should we be mad at Lands or should we be 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.000 like like looking at this system and going what sort 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:28.919 of fraud is this? And the only way that you 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.480 can catch an athlete after five tests through launching a 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.040 criminal investigation and getting all of the teammates who did 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.720 the same thing as he did Rata Mountain is in 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.760 exchange for his own uh you know, uh, in exchange 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.200 for their own immunity. And and so I I started going, wait, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.360 there there is a bigger story here that people are 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.440 not looking at. And that story to me was that 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.840 the global anti doping system nothing to do with cycling 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.959 really just all of sport. Because if you're going the 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:04.280 most tested athlete on planet Earth has been managed to 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.960 has managed for ten fifteen years to get around the system. Well, 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.760 what about every other athlete on planet Earth and all 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.119 the sports that they're hardly been doing any testing on. 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.520 So so I got this essentially, this idea that I 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.719 wanted to go on like a super size me journey 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.960 proved that the anti doping system was a fraud, And 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.480 inadvertently I was hoping to kind of redeem my hero 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.359 lance and show that this guy was essentially a needle 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.280 uh in the global haystack. Uh. And of course what 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:40.960 transpired ended up being, you know, a million times crazier 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.600 and bigger than anything I could have imagined as as 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:48.119 I set out. Um, but but that was what what 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:53.160 set me on the journey. And and as I started 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:54.840 on this journey, it took me about a year to 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.800 raise the first bit of money to get going, which 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.680 was how much ran should your father help you out? 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.959 Why do you think he had helped me? He had 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.840 put a little bit of money into the into the movie, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:17.040 and that didn't pay back, and and I didn't. My 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.720 father is not a wealthy guy. You know, he's done fine, 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.640 but he's retiring. Um, you know, my my parents are 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.880 just being they're they're fine, they're not. Well, well, let's 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.679 just go back here a little bit. So you go 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.520 to school, you're the young person of the outcast. What 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.000 what age do you start riding bicycles. I started riding 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:41.320 bikes when I was thirteen years old. Um And what 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:43.720 kind of it happened is I had I had been 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:49.240 playing soccer in baseball, and I wasn't really good. Um baseball, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:53.720 I was essentially the Jew on the baseball team. And 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.560 growing up in Denver, uh, there was a lot of 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:01.360 anti Semitism, and um I was essentially the Jew um 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.040 and Uh I was the Jew on the soccer team. 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:10.480 And M and cycling for me is a really it's 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.159 a very individual sport. There's a lot of you know, 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.119 there's a lot of team elements and ultimately the guys. 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:17.840 You know, once you get on a team, it is 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.159 a lot of teamwork. But the sport in and of 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.480 itself is not dependent on this kind of you know, 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.960 like a baseball team or soccer team. And and it 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.800 was right about the time that M. Greg Laman won 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:34.280 the first tour in and Um I had a friend 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.160 of mine in middle school and his brother essentially got 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.320 into cycling. I was in seventh grade and he got 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.800 a bike, and I was like, oh, this looks kind 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.600 of cool, and so, um, I wanted to buy a bike. 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.159 And I detailed cars all summer. I started up a 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:56.080 little car detailing business where people would bring their car 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.240 over to my parents house in the morning from around 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.600 the neighborhood. Boar and waxed the car charge him. I 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.440 don't remember thirty five bucks. And I saved up six 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.399 hundred dollars to buy my first bike, which was what 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:09.840 it was, a track. It was a purple truck with 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:14.280 yellow tape on the handlebars. How many I think at 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.639 the time, it's probably twelve as twelve speed and and 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.720 I got on this bike, and I was I was 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.840 on my way. I mean I I grew up with 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:28.240 asthma my whole life, and and the doctor always said, oh, 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.640 you know, you shouldn't ride a bike. You can't ride 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:35.640 a bike. Um, but I got on that bike and 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.159 and um, it was it was just kind of like 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.080 my freedom. And I and I started riding every day 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:45.879 after school. I would breaking away. Um yeah, it seemed 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.440 breaking away. So you're now writing independently what you're saying, 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.160 I'm gonna get myself in shape to enter competitions. Yeah, 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:56.560 it was. I was ski racing in the winters and 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:01.200 not well. But but you know, I started ski racing 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.639 when I guess I was probably about twelve, and that 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:08.840 was where in Colorado at Winter Park, which is um 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:13.760 a mountain about ninety minutes from Denver. And um. I 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:16.320 started skiing when I was about three years old and 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:20.320 decided I wanted to race, and that was also part 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:22.919 of the cycling, which was all the guys who were skiing. 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:27.199 It was cycling in the summer. It's like both of 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:29.520 those sports. If you talked to any real skier, they 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.240 ride their cyclists, and if you talked to any real cyclists, 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:36.439 their skiers generally. Um and uh. So I had started 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.159 ski racing basically a year before that and decided that 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:43.919 cycling would be a good way to stand shape and 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:45.920 um and and it also has got a real kind 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:52.520 of solo element to it. And yeah, so I started riding. Okay, 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:54.560 So when you you obviously had a bike before that, 0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:56.400 but now you have a bike that you can actually, 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:00.680