1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to this week's edition of the Bob 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Left Sets podcast. My guest is Oscar winning director of 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: the movie ch Risk, Ryan Fogel. Ryan, Good to have 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: you here, Good to be here now. In this particular case, 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: I have a bike riding friend and he's going on 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: and on about ch Risk. But he can see Academy 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: screeners and he sees everything. But I'm sitting in front 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: of Netflix one night and I start to watch and 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: I get hooked. This is at the end of the year, 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: long before the Oscar run up, and if you haven't 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: seen the movie, the movie is really phenomenal. But my 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: first question is you won the Oscar four months ago. 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: Are you still on a high? March Aapel May. Yeah, got, 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: that's as great. What was it mall in March April May? Yeah, 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: four months? Um, yeah, I think I think I'm still 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: on a high. Overall. Um, it's a it's a surreal 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: experience to to go through that, and especially the lead 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: up to the Oscars and um, it's exciting and also 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: an overwhelming sense of pressure. Um. And so I think 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: it took me probably a couple of months just to 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: decompress from that and but yeah, it was a spectacular experience. 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: It was like being on tour of the rock band. 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: I've mentioned a friend of mine used to work with 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: you to management and they would go on the road 25 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: for two years and would take her a year to decompress. 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: I I I can see that. I mean I was. 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: The film came out in August of of last year, 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: so almost almost a year ago, and the press started 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: in July, and I was essentially on a an eight 30 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: month NonStop press and promotional tour. UM. And so when 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: it ended essentially after the Oscars, it was kind of 32 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: like a all right, now what um? And that was? 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: That was really a sum ride. And where do you 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: keep the oscar? Um? The Oscars? Just sitting in a 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: hallway the first the first month, UM, I wouldn't let 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: it leave my side. I would I would bring it 37 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: to the kitchen, it would come on the bedside table. 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: And then and then when I would leave the house, 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: I was so paranoid, UM that I would like put 40 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: it in like a shoe bag in the trunk of 41 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: my car UM, or just carry it kind of like 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: inexplicably in a like a shoulder bag. UM. And now 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: it seems to kind of have a semi permanent home, 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: and I've put in a really great security system with 45 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: all sorts of cameras. Really really, let's say hypothetically it 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: did get stolen, can you get a replacement I have? 47 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: I really have no idea because like they number them, 48 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: so I have like Oscar number four thousand, I think 49 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: one thirty six, so I guess that's four thousand, one 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: six Oscars in ninety years something like that. And UM, 51 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: you know they they like didn't give Netflix one, so 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: it would be Oscar only went to myself and my 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: producing UH partner that the Academy recognized, Dan Coogan. So 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: I don't really know what what protocol is. UM. I 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: do feel like I already need to bring it back 56 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: for a polishing, though it starts to age. So now 57 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: that you've first thing, UH, Kobe Bryant was rejected for 58 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: admission just recently to the Academy. Have you tried to 59 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: get in? UM? While I I haven't heard, I think 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: they announced UM and UH, you know each of the 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: UH it's all through the various branches that decide. So 62 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: I was automatically eligible and considered because I won the Oscar. 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: But apparently it's not it's not given. Um so, UM, 64 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna hear sometime the next couple of 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: weeks or something. UM, I hope the branch let me in. 66 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: It's it's by branch. So the so the doc branch, 67 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: these members and I and I've been told there's like 68 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: thirty or forty on the committee basically decide who they 69 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: allow him to the branch. And I think they allow 70 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: him maybe five ten people a year. Um. Well, unlike Kobe, 71 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: you have history in film, so your odds are pretty good, 72 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: but you never really know. So let's go back. You're 73 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: from Denver, grew up in Denver, my family is still there, 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: went to school and Boulder. Uh. Let's go back. What 75 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: did your father do for a living? Um? Wow, this 76 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: is great. Nobody has asked me this, uh in an interview. 77 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: My dad uh retired from law about I guess probably 78 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: four years ago. And he was a UH. He started 79 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: as a as a us S or attorneys who was 80 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: one of the uh youngest U S district attorneys ever. 81 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 1: He got a district attorney right out of law school. Um. 82 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: And this was in Denver. Yeah, and then he was 83 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: a UH. He was a prosecutor Um, he went into 84 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: private practice and most of the at least in the 85 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: first probably two thirds of his career, was mostly criminal law. UM. 86 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: And then on the later part of his practice. My 87 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: dad's seventy five, now, UM, he branched off into all 88 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff. UM. But uh, yeah, great, great guy. 89 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: I got to see him for Father's Day. And why 90 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: did he retire? UM? I think you know, it was 91 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: a combination of I think he called it, you know, 92 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: I think at about seventy And I think also the 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: law practice changed a lot. He was never Um, he 94 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: never had a firm. He was in private practice his 95 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: whole life. He always said, I I didn't want the 96 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: stress of a firm, didn't want the stress of employees. 97 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean he I think he found it stressful enough 98 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: having a paralegal and a secretary and finding good people. UM. 99 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I think the the business 100 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: changed a lot. UM. And also I think he just 101 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: uh was was ready to kind of you know, he's 102 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: involved in all sorts of other things, a lot of 103 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: charity stuff. He just I think he has ah, he 104 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: has a lot of other interests. And your mother, did 105 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: you work outside the home? Um? Growing up? No, I 106 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: have an older sister who lives in Denver, married, and 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: I have a younger brother who's an artist. You're the 108 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: middle kid in New York and in the middle. Okay, 109 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: so I'm a middle kid too. How much older your 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: older sister and how much younger is your younger brother. 111 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: My older sister is uh, almost three years older than me, 112 00:06:54,360 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: and my younger brother is five years younger than me. 113 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: And I and I guess I was kind of the 114 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: the bully among my family, but not not intentionally. I 115 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: was like getting bullied in school, so I'd come home 116 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: and be a terror. But you're using the term bully. 117 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: How did you bully inside the house? I I don't. 118 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure. I mean you would probably have 119 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: to ask my brother. So he said you were the bully. Yeah, 120 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: and there was I remember this was probably fifteen years ago. 121 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: Uh so you're you're you're a guy connection. How old 122 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: are you today? Uh? Okay, so when you're like almost thirty, 123 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: what happens? Um my? Um uh yeah, it's actually no, 124 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: it was now. No, it was more like when I 125 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: was like and uh and I remember I'm home visiting 126 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: and my brother, um uh had he was very very 127 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: upset with me and hurt with me. And he had 128 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: never never actually talked to me about this, um and 129 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: he had had like these recollections from from childhood that 130 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: that essentially that you know that I that I you know, 131 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: was bullied him and um and I think he was 132 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: right because I was having a hard time in school. 133 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: I was always kind of the the little guy getting 134 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: picked on. And so then I would come home from 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: school after being picked on and and pick on my 136 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: my younger brother. So do you think playing that role 137 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: in school affected your career path of your success? Absolutely? 138 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: I think uh uh. I had a I had a 139 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: really stable childhood. From a family perspective. My parents are 140 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: still married. There was no drama in the home. There 141 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: was there was none of that stuff that you hear, 142 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: you know where you know people grow up and have 143 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: parents that are alcohol or addicts or has divorce and 144 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: all that stuff. So none of that was um was 145 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: was present in my home. Um. But uh uh, for 146 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: whatever reason, I think is as a kid, I grew 147 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: up always feeling like an outsider. I was always I 148 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: was always kind of like the short kid. Uh And 149 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: um and I think as as I became an adult, 150 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: especially because cycling, which was a lifelong thing for me. 151 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: Just UM, it's it's a massochistic sport, like you really 152 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: have to really like to suffer, and the guys who 153 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: can suffer the most basically do the best. On top 154 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: of that and genetic ability, but a lot of it 155 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: just comes down to how much you're willing to suffer. 156 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: And UM, and I basically done that my whole life, 157 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: writing and I think UM in Icarus and other things 158 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: in my life. UM, I don't know when to UM, 159 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't stop. I just I get something in my 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: mind and I'll just okay. Well it worked out with Charus. 161 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: Are there are other times when it didn't work out? UM? 162 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. UM. Yeah, there was certainly other 163 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: times when when it didn't work out. UM. Before Charus, 164 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: I UM essentially right when I when I turned thirty. 165 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: UM I. Prior to that, UH, for several years, I 166 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: was in stand up comedy. I was um UH, I 167 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: was acting and writing and and UM I basically wrote 168 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: UH and starred in UH this play called Utopia and 169 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: opened it up. I wrote it with a with a 170 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: friend of mine, Sam Wilson. And there's a whole story 171 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: behind that. How how how that came together and we 172 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: opened it up in l A. And it became a 173 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: pretty substantial hit. So how many years ago was that this? Uh? 174 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: It started in two thousand three, and then we played 175 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: about three shows in l A. I brought it to 176 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: New York and then it played in New York for 177 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: three and a half years. Uh, and it was. It 178 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: was a big hit. We had productions of it running 179 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: in other cities. UM and I did a book, created 180 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: a traveling show, UM another show outside of that, UM 181 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: and you know, and and and I added inadvertently basically 182 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: trapped myself into this world. I was now essentially the 183 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: Utopia guy, which I would like him too, being probably 184 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: like David Swimmer on Friends, Jason Alexander on Seinfeld. I mean, nobody, 185 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: nobody saw me outside of essentially basically I was the 186 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: Gutopia guy. And and and I was. I personally performed 187 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: as the star of this product and probably six hundred shows. 188 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: And it was an interesting kind of be careful what 189 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: you wish for, because um, I was a struggling actor, writer, comedian. 190 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: Suddenly I basically wrote a role for myself, created the show, 191 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: produced the show, and it was now a hit. Now 192 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: I was trapped in the show and UM, and during 193 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: this period of time, I realized that I really didn't 194 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: want to act anymore, and what I wanted to do 195 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: was was direct and produced because that that, to me, 196 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: UM was more akin to my personality, which is being 197 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: able to kind of oversee the bigger picture of it 198 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: and what I found. All of a sudden, as I 199 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: started getting success with the play and I went on 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: on auditions auditions for a short amount of time, I 201 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: suddenly would kind of go in and being like, wait, 202 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm the I'm the starring creator of this of this 203 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: really really you know, success full show, and now all 204 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm coming in and and auditioning for 205 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: Dorito's commercial or auditioning for you know, a couple of 206 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: lines on a TV show, and it and and and 207 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: I and I didn't like it. So I decided that 208 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to do that anymore. I didn't I 209 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: had no interest in auditioning, and that I would and 210 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: that I really wanted to direct because I was directing 211 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: UM the show, you know, inadvertently as well by producing it, 212 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: and I was, um, you know, in charge of all 213 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: the casting, and so when cast members would leave the 214 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 1: show and then other cities of the show. So UM, 215 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: sitting on the other table watching actors audition made me 216 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: never want to audition again. And so I decided that 217 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to adapt the play into a movie. And 218 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: Sam and I basically adapted it into a screenplay, and UM, 219 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to direct it. Held on to direct it, 220 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: and it took me about five years to get UM 221 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: what was a million and a half dollars to to 222 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: make the film and and it was. It was one 223 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: of the worst experiences of my life. I was supposed 224 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: to have a twenty six day shoot that turned into 225 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: a nineteen day shoot. A week into the production, UM, 226 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: so we had boarded the entire production. I had found 227 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: all my locations, and the financier had decided that he 228 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: was going to try to make this film Non Union 229 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles with a cast that included Jennifer love 230 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: Hewitt and Rita Wilson and Tom Arnold and Peter Stormare 231 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: and Jamie Lynn Siegler and all these other John Lovitt, 232 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: there's all these guys in it, and UM and so 233 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: a week into the production, of course, the the Union 234 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: came knocking saying, Hey, what what are you guys doing. 235 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: And instead of ponying up what would have been a 236 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: couple hundred thousand dollars more, they took a week out 237 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: of my shooting schedule. So all of a sudden, I 238 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: had another basically two weeks to do what was supposed 239 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: to be done in three weeks. UM. And I was 240 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: given eight days to do my director's cut. Uh. And 241 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: under the d g A the Director's guild, Um, you're required. 242 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: The director is required I think a minimum of six 243 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: or eight weeks. And the film was non d g A, 244 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: which was the lesson that I learned not to make 245 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: a non union film over again. And I was given 246 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: eight days and um and then uh, they decided not 247 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: to sell the film, and they decided that they would 248 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: release it straight onto on demand. UM. So they put 249 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: it into theaters on a Sunday at two o'clock in 250 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: the morning, at two o'clock in the afternoon, uh, to 251 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: pretend that it was in theaters now. And so of 252 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: course there was no money ever spent to market the film. 253 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: There's no money to promote the film, and the film 254 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: left me in director's jail. I had invested the last 255 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: amount of money that I had into the film, and 256 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: I came out of this experience essentially broke and beaten up, 257 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: a really really depressed and and I went through a 258 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: really really hard time and I didn't know, uh if 259 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: I was going to be able to uh continue to 260 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: find another place within the entertainment industry to continue to create. 261 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: And I started looking at other businesses, and I started 262 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: getting back into cycling, and cycling for me was essentially 263 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: my therapy. And and so I was riding my bike 264 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: a ton, trying to figure out what I was going 265 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: to do with my life and how I was going 266 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: to pay my bills. UM. I was even thinking about 267 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: moving back to Colorado, and Lance confessed and multiple tours 268 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: de France, and it was now basically the beginning of 269 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: and Any confesses. And I'd been really kind of back 270 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: into shape on the bike. And you know, everybody in 271 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: the sport and anybody Rise always a was wondering did 272 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: he dope or not? And be you know, I think 273 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: anybody who's ever been into endurance sports or real a 274 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: real athlete wonders, Hey, what what would these drugs do 275 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: for me? What would these pds do for me? And 276 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: did you believe he was a doper before he confessed, 277 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: I was on the fence, um because he was like 278 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: my hero, like uh As, I think he was way 279 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: beyond cycling. I mean, he was arguably the biggest athlete 280 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: on planet Earth and the most well known athlete on 281 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: planet Earth, much more so than even Lebron James or 282 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: because he was he was so international. Um So there 283 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: was that part of me that always believed, no, he 284 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: couldn't know, he wouldn't. But then as the years went 285 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: by and you and you realize that everybody else you 286 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: know had confessed doping, a big caught for doping. The 287 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: guy got second place, third place, and then you'd read 288 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: all these like journals basically going whatever these numbers and 289 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: his watts per kilo and all this stuff seems unfathomable. 290 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: But um, I wasn't so shocked that he had doped. 291 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: But what really caught me about it was the way 292 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: that they got him, which was they got Lance kind 293 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: of like al Capone on tax evasion. They never caught 294 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: him how the system was supposed to catch him, which is, 295 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, the guy uh had had managed to this 296 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: day to pass every single but there was one where 297 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: he was it was a positive and he explained it away. Yeah, 298 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: that but that was back way way into in the 299 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: early part of his career. If I remember, that was 300 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: like and they didn't kind of really have the true evidence. Um, 301 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: but I mean the way that they get him is 302 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: basically by launching a criminal investigation and all of his 303 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: teammates now under essentially you know, a criminal testimony, admit 304 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: to doping in exchange for essentially immunity, and rat Lands out, 305 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, in the process. And I'm going, wait, wait, wait, 306 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: should we be mad at Lands or should we be 307 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: like like looking at this system and going what sort 308 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: of fraud is this? And the only way that you 309 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: can catch an athlete after five tests through launching a 310 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: criminal investigation and getting all of the teammates who did 311 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: the same thing as he did Rata Mountain is in 312 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: exchange for his own uh you know, uh, in exchange 313 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: for their own immunity. And and so I I started going, wait, 314 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: there there is a bigger story here that people are 315 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: not looking at. And that story to me was that 316 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: the global anti doping system nothing to do with cycling 317 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 1: really just all of sport. Because if you're going the 318 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: most tested athlete on planet Earth has been managed to 319 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: has managed for ten fifteen years to get around the system. Well, 320 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: what about every other athlete on planet Earth and all 321 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: the sports that they're hardly been doing any testing on. 322 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: So so I got this essentially, this idea that I 323 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: wanted to go on like a super size me journey 324 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: proved that the anti doping system was a fraud, And 325 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: inadvertently I was hoping to kind of redeem my hero 326 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: lance and show that this guy was essentially a needle 327 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: uh in the global haystack. Uh. And of course what 328 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: transpired ended up being, you know, a million times crazier 329 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: and bigger than anything I could have imagined as as 330 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: I set out. Um, but but that was what what 331 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: set me on the journey. And and as I started 332 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: on this journey, it took me about a year to 333 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: raise the first bit of money to get going, which 334 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: was how much ran should your father help you out? 335 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: Why do you think he had helped me? He had 336 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: put a little bit of money into the into the movie, 337 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: and that didn't pay back, and and I didn't. My 338 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: father is not a wealthy guy. You know, he's done fine, 339 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: but he's retiring. Um, you know, my my parents are 340 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: just being they're they're fine, they're not. Well, well, let's 341 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: just go back here a little bit. So you go 342 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: to school, you're the young person of the outcast. What 343 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: what age do you start riding bicycles. I started riding 344 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: bikes when I was thirteen years old. Um And what 345 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: kind of it happened is I had I had been 346 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: playing soccer in baseball, and I wasn't really good. Um baseball, 347 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: I was essentially the Jew on the baseball team. And 348 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: growing up in Denver, uh, there was a lot of 349 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, and um I was essentially the Jew um 350 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: and Uh I was the Jew on the soccer team. 351 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: And M and cycling for me is a really it's 352 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: a very individual sport. There's a lot of you know, 353 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: there's a lot of team elements and ultimately the guys. 354 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: You know, once you get on a team, it is 355 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: a lot of teamwork. But the sport in and of 356 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: itself is not dependent on this kind of you know, 357 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: like a baseball team or soccer team. And and it 358 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: was right about the time that M. Greg Laman won 359 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: the first tour in and Um I had a friend 360 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: of mine in middle school and his brother essentially got 361 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: into cycling. I was in seventh grade and he got 362 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: a bike, and I was like, oh, this looks kind 363 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: of cool, and so, um, I wanted to buy a bike. 364 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: And I detailed cars all summer. I started up a 365 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: little car detailing business where people would bring their car 366 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: over to my parents house in the morning from around 367 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. Boar and waxed the car charge him. I 368 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: don't remember thirty five bucks. And I saved up six 369 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: hundred dollars to buy my first bike, which was what 370 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: it was, a track. It was a purple truck with 371 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: yellow tape on the handlebars. How many I think at 372 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: the time, it's probably twelve as twelve speed and and 373 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: I got on this bike, and I was I was 374 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: on my way. I mean I I grew up with 375 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: asthma my whole life, and and the doctor always said, oh, 376 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't ride a bike. You can't ride 377 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: a bike. Um, but I got on that bike and 378 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: and um, it was it was just kind of like 379 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: my freedom. And I and I started riding every day 380 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: after school. I would breaking away. Um yeah, it seemed 381 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: breaking away. So you're now writing independently what you're saying, 382 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get myself in shape to enter competitions. Yeah, 383 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: it was. I was ski racing in the winters and 384 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: not well. But but you know, I started ski racing 385 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: when I guess I was probably about twelve, and that 386 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: was where in Colorado at Winter Park, which is um 387 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: a mountain about ninety minutes from Denver. And um. I 388 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: started skiing when I was about three years old and 389 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: decided I wanted to race, and that was also part 390 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: of the cycling, which was all the guys who were skiing. 391 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: It was cycling in the summer. It's like both of 392 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: those sports. If you talked to any real skier, they 393 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: ride their cyclists, and if you talked to any real cyclists, 394 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: their skiers generally. Um and uh. So I had started 395 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: ski racing basically a year before that and decided that 396 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: cycling would be a good way to stand shape and 397 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: um and and it also has got a real kind 398 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: of solo element to it. And yeah, so I started riding. Okay, 399 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: So when you you obviously had a bike before that, 400 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: but now you have a bike that you can actually, 401 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: let's say, compete with. At what point did you enter 402 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: after getting the bike the competitive system pretty much right away, 403 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: like within within within like the next year. So the 404 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: first kind of summer I got into it that I 405 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: got really into it. And there was these races in 406 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: Colorado called the red Zinger Mini Classics, um like red 407 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: Zinger t Special Seasons, which are from Colorado exactly. And 408 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: and they were also at the time sponsoring, um the 409 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: Bigger Bike Race which I can't remember, within these the 410 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Course Classic Colorado, Yeah, and that Tour Colforado was in 411 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: recent years, but it was it was a course Classic, 412 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: and Michael Eisner was developing, was promoting all those races 413 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: and I've got to know him over the last year. 414 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: Awesome guy. And UM, so the Course Classic was going on, 415 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: and the red Zinger Mini Classic was kind of like 416 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: you know what the kids were doing in and during 417 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: the summer, basically I think it was every other week 418 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: there was another red Zinger Mini class They were two 419 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: day races like on Saturday Sunday, three stages, a time trial, 420 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: a road race, and like a criterion or circuit race. 421 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: And I started doing those when I was I think 422 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: I was thirteen when I did my first one, and 423 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: I and then every year, how well did you do 424 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: in that? So I was I was basically the guy 425 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: who was um better than but never uh never one. 426 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: So asthma was a huge thing for me. And what 427 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: would happen is is I would start the race, I'd 428 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: have to have my asthma attack. I'd have an asthma attack, 429 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: and then I would taken in Hailer and this set 430 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: and the other, and then after the asthma attack, I 431 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: would recover and then I'd spend the entire race catching 432 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: back on. And then we was there like a preventive Wait, 433 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: you can't use well, that was the thing at the time. 434 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: What I was using was this nebulizer solution, which is 435 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: like this machine. I mean you look like you know, uh, 436 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Frankenstein or something and puffing on this machine and there's 437 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: there's never you know, solution coming out of it. And 438 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: so I would so I'd take this nebulizer solution like 439 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: in the parking lot you had. I'd find someplace to 440 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: like plug it in outside the race. I mean, I 441 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: remember this, and that would dilate my lungs and hopefully 442 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have the asthma attack. But most of the 443 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: time I would have the asthma attack and then I'd 444 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: spend the whole race catching back on. But if it 445 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: was a mountain stage, it was a climbing stage, because 446 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: I was always kind of like the you know, I've 447 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: got a climber's build. Um eventually knock off every almost 448 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: everybody and finish like fifth or six. But I never one. Um. 449 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: But just so I know, if one isn't asthmatic, is 450 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: that a band drug? Well, and that's a whole other 451 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: thing which is which is interesting. So like this whole 452 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: thing with Chris Froom. If the guys won, I think, 453 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: what has he won? Four Tour de Frances Now, uh, 454 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: you know he's under this whole investigation for using uh 455 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: Salm Salma beauty role, which is the drug which totally 456 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: changed my life. So um, I guess probably about when 457 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: I was twenty years ago or something, a drug by 458 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: the name of advert came on the market which is 459 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: Flew Coast, I mean, and sal Salma beautiful. And this 460 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: drug essentially stops you from having asthma, prevents asthma just 461 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: flat out. So you just take I take a puff 462 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: of this every morning, just one like it's like a discus. 463 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: And in my mind right now I don't have asthma. 464 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: I haven't had an asthma attack in twenty years. But 465 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: if I stopped taking this drug in twenty four hours 466 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: from now, I will be reminded that I have asthma. 467 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: So it's crazy. I mean, this drug completely stops asthma, 468 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: but if you take too much of it or whatever 469 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: what they're saying Froom did. Uh, it's it's a band substance. Um. 470 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: But I had this drug been on the market when 471 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: I was growing up and when I was racing, who knows. 472 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: I mean, my life might have been very different. Okay, 473 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: so you're racing an age race all through high school, 474 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: race all through high school, and then, um, my first 475 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: year in college, how did you decide to go to Boulder? Well, 476 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: I went to Boulder. Um, I had gotten into Middlebury. 477 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: Goes you went to Middlebury. So I almost went to Middlebury. Uh, right, 478 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: because I was looking at basically a place that I 479 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: could basically ride my bike and ski and I went 480 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: and like visited, and I was like, Wow, this is 481 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: really cold and and and the mountains are nowhere as 482 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: big and beautiful as Colorado. The cycling doesn't look anywhere 483 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: as good as Boulder. I was like, you know, I 484 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: think I'll I think I'll stay home and I think 485 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: My parents also were kind of going like, wow, Middlebury 486 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: is gonna cost a lot of money, and you got 487 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: Boulder in your backyard. And I loved Boulder, um, and 488 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: it looked like you know, and I had been going 489 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: up there cycling. I wanted to stay you know, close 490 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: to skiing. I loved Vale and all the mountains, and 491 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: so I decided to go to Boulder and and I 492 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: was easing. Uh, and I got sponsored by a team 493 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: in Canada, and um, when I was nineteen at the time, eighteen, 494 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: and I'm in this horrific bike crash and I lose 495 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: uh seven wow yeah, and um and all of these 496 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: are every single one of them are basically um, I 497 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: had to have root canals. So I had to have 498 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: eight eight root canals. Um. You know, they didn't lose. 499 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: The mir shattered and the teeth died, and I basically 500 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: spent like two years with like plastic teeth in my mouth. 501 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: Is they're doing root canals and it's wonders for your 502 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: dating life. Yeah, it was just it was it was 503 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: really bad. And what it and what it did was 504 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: it made me like essentially not want to raise a 505 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: bike anymore, because you have to be fearless. And so 506 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: now I'm basically back on the bike. And and when 507 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: you're racing, you know, you're you're within you know, an 508 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: inch of the other guy's wheel, and I'm going weight. 509 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to basically lose all my teeth again. 510 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: So suddenly I'm I'm writing, you know, defensively instead of offensively. 511 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: And and I and I kind of realized that this 512 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: was not essentially the career that I wanted for myself. Um, 513 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: it's just such a brutal sport and very few people 514 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: ever make any a living in it. Unlike the you know, NBA, 515 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: where there's whatever it is, eight players in the NBA 516 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: and the guy who's making the least amount of money 517 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: is still making like seven hundred thousand a million a 518 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: year or something like that. In cycling, basically nobody is 519 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: making any money other than Lance Armstrong, you know, right, 520 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: And uh, and I said, huh, maybe this is not 521 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: the the career path for me. We take a quick 522 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: break and come back with more of my conversation with 523 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Oscar winning filmmaker Brian Fogel recorded live that the two 524 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: in studios in Venice, California. Most of the time I 525 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: talked to musicians like Shirley Manson of Garbage or industry 526 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: executives like Motown President Ethiopia have to marry him. But 527 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: sometimes we go off the beaten path with our guests 528 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: like Tony Hawk and this week I'm speaking with Brian Fogel, 529 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: the mastermind behind the documentary Icarus. Whether you come for 530 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: the music, the tech business, or otherwise, be the first 531 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: year next week's episode by subscribing to The Mob Left 532 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: That's Podcast. I'm tune in Apple Podcast for your podcast 533 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,239 Speaker 1: player of choice. While you're there, be sure to rate 534 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: and review the podcast. Okay, let's get back to my 535 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: conversation with Brian Foegl. Why don't you stop competing? Do 536 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: you stopped riding your bike? Are you still continuing to 537 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: ride your bike? No, I kept riding and um and 538 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: I took a so I kept riding through through college, 539 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: but it just really became like a hobby. And in 540 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: the back of my mind, I was always going to 541 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: race again, but but I didn't and um, and then 542 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: I moved out to Los Angeles. Before you go, So, 543 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: you're in college, are you studying acting entertainment things? No, 544 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: I was. I was studying sociology and psychology. And the 545 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: reason why is UM basically like the entire football team 546 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: was sociology majors. And I didn't view myself as like 547 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: going into like a graduate program. I didn't see myself 548 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: as being a doctor or a lawyer. I had always 549 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of been entrepreneurial and UM, and I didn't really 550 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: know what I wanted to do, but I knew that 551 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to be a scientist or or something 552 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: that required like a real graduate degree, so UM, so 553 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: I studied those two things and UM. And after college 554 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: I moved to Aspen. But before you moved to Aspen, 555 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: now you're in college, are you still the runt or 556 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: do you fit and in college? Now I'm starting to 557 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: fit in. And then you moved to ask me to 558 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: be a ski bum Um Yeah. Essentially moved to Aspen 559 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: UM after college with the idea that I would UM 560 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: ski and UM ride my bike and UM and I 561 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: had UH started up a little business with a friend 562 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: of mine where we were essentially UM having computers manufactured 563 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: UM and UH and selling them through through the classified 564 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: ads at the time, where you know, like kind of 565 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: like what Dell was doing, but you know, on a 566 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: micro cause him level where we would advertise essentially, you know, 567 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: build a computer and you know we put ads and 568 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: classified and so I could be anywhere to do that. 569 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: And uh, and I had a company and I was 570 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: like at the time, and I had like a company 571 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: that I was contracting through in Los Angele, US and 572 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: and so I was I was doing that, went to 573 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: Aspen and had come out to l A, Los Angeles 574 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: a few times and loved it. And just like the weather, 575 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: I just um kind of fell in love with the 576 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: city and and decided that I would So how long 577 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: were you ask him? A little bit less than a year. Okay, 578 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: so you come to l A, you like the weather, 579 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: you have the computer business. At what point do you say, hmm, 580 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: I want to go into the entertainment business. So I 581 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: guess I'm probably at the time. And um, this was 582 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: actually nineteen Uh it was and and I'm I'm living 583 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: in Beverly Holes area, uh and and I'm working out 584 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: at this this gym called Crunch on Sunset in West Hollywood. 585 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: And I meet this and I meet this girl. Uh. 586 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: We date for a short amount of time. And my 587 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: whole life, I was always doing um voices accents like 588 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: like when I was a kid, I would leave, um, 589 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: like my parents had a phone, a phone recording device, 590 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, if an answering machine, which nobody uses anymore, 591 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 1: and I guess I would. I would leave what would 592 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: probably be considered like, you know, unacceptable accents on the machine, 593 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: just pretending to be someone you know, like whatever, you know, 594 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: like hi, you just reached the phogol if I am 595 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: late leaving message, you know that kind of stuff. But um, 596 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: and so I was always doing voices and impressions, and 597 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: this girl was like, you know, you know, have you 598 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: ever thought about doing comedy? You should, you should do comedy. 599 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: You're missing your calling. What what are you doing in 600 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: Los Angeles selling computers? You should be a stand up comedian. 601 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: And I go, huh, maybe I should, And I decided 602 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: to take a stand up comedy class. It was a 603 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: class at the the Prov and the class was like 604 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,959 Speaker 1: a six weeks class or something like that, once a week, 605 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: and at the end of a class, basically you hustle 606 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: all your friends to come to the improv and your 607 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,959 Speaker 1: friends have to buy drinks and everything, but the show 608 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: is free and they get to witness basically the stand 609 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: up comedian class basically performing at like five o'clock on 610 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: a on a on a Tuesday at the improv kind 611 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 1: of thing. So I do this like six week class. 612 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: I get up there, uh you know, and do my whatever. 613 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: It was five minutes, ten minutes, I don't remember. And 614 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, I really like this. I want to 615 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: be a comedian. And how did you go over um 616 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: that evening? I went over really well because it was 617 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: it was a warm room. There were there were a 618 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: lot of friends that I had convinced to come to 619 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: watch me. And I was ah, I was doing like 620 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: like prop comedy where I just like it was really bad. 621 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: It was really bad, and uh, it's like, go, hey, 622 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do comedy. And so I started doing 623 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: like open mics at the at the comedy Store and 624 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: the laugh Factory, and you know, in that world is 625 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: kind of dark. You're basically like standing in line all 626 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: day to like go on for like a three minute 627 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: spot um, you know, whenever they do their open mic nights. Um. 628 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: And I did that for probably about a year and 629 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: a half two years, and I and it's like, I 630 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: don't think this is for me because the life is 631 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: too hard or success is too hard. Why do you 632 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: decide to say this isn't for you. You know, I 633 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: was doing a lot of like improv classes too, and 634 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: my personal experience was in the clubs. Um, there's just 635 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: all these like comedians like fighting for a couple of 636 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: minutes on stage, and it was kind of like a 637 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: dark underbelly um behind like you know, you get on 638 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: stage and all of a sudden, your whole job is 639 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: to be funny. But like the the guys who were 640 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: trying to get up, and it was just it was 641 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: it's a it's a really strange world. And anybody who's 642 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: who's went through this, and I'm sure any any comedian 643 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: this went through this would would would say this as well. 644 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: Um and uh, I just found it just kind of 645 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: like dark and depressing. And and here I was basically 646 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: like standing on a sidewalk for for eight hours trying 647 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: to get like a three minute spot, you know, to 648 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: go up at the comedy store. And I'm like this 649 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 1: just this just isn't isn't great. And so I decided 650 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: that I wanted to you know, get into acting and 651 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: take acting classes and so were continuing to support yourself 652 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: building computers. No, so I had um, I got I 653 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: had gotten out of the computer business, and I'd like 654 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: sold my clients to this, to the company that that 655 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: was building the PCs, and uh and I had a 656 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: little bit of money, like like tucked away, and so 657 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: I decided that while I was essentially acting, that I 658 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: was going to be a day trader in stocks. And uh. 659 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: So I was like, you know, twenty four years old, 660 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: and we're gonna beat and the UH and and tech stocks. 661 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: If you remember, at this time, we're going crazy like Cisco, Microsoft, Oracle. 662 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: I mean you couldn't lose. I mean, you know, and 663 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: and and all these stocks were going through the roof. 664 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: But then there were all these like um tech companies. 665 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: I remember it was like I two I t w 666 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: O and j D s U and broad Calm and 667 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: all these and and they were just you know, going 668 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: through the roof. And so I start going into stocks 669 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: just you know, I'm taking acting classes, I'm doing comedy 670 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: and improvlem. So I'm trying to find a way into 671 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: the business. But I'm basically gonna, you know, make pay 672 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 1: my bills through day trading. And this was working great 673 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: for about about a year. And uh and so I 674 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: had uh and I had never taken a class in 675 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: it or anything, but I mean, you really couldn't lose. 676 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: I'm just And then I realized that there's option trading, 677 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: which is which is essentially the kiss of death, which 678 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, basically you can just buy, uh own the 679 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: stock for a fraction of a stock price, so you 680 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: can buy like a thousand shares when you could have 681 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: only really afforded to buy, you know, fifty shares. But 682 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: when you lose, you basically lose like you like you 683 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: had a thousand shares. You get wiped out really quick, 684 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: but you can make big gains. So I was trading options. 685 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: I mean it was, it was going really really well. 686 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: And then this was and the whole tech market crashed 687 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: and overnight the stocks went from like I don't know, 688 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: two dollars a share to like two dollars to share, 689 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: and I was in options and I got wiped out 690 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 1: and it was it was and suddenly I was back 691 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: to Okay, Now, how am I actually gonna gonna support 692 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: myself as as a as an actor? Um? So so 693 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: I start up this, uh this showcase company. Um. And 694 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: the concept was I had been trying to break into 695 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: acting and and and in in Los Angeles, and these 696 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: things are still going on. They have all these like 697 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,959 Speaker 1: cold reading workshops and acting workshops and and and there's 698 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: scam operations. You go in, you pay fifty bucks and 699 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: you read for like some like casting director's assistant or 700 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: some manager's assistant or some agents assistant, and the laboratiz 701 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: that like, you know whatever, some legitimate you know, agency manager. 702 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: But it's not even it's like it's a it's a 703 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: total scam. And so um, so I'm doing these cold 704 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: reading workshops and these agent workshops, trying to get an agent, 705 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: trying to get seen, and I'm realizing that this is 706 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,240 Speaker 1: a scam. And I decided that I'm gonna put together 707 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: essentially this this showcase that's not going to be a scam, 708 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: that I'm going to bring in legitimate industry people and 709 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to have the work critiqued, because that was 710 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: essentially what I was missing from all these workshops. You 711 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: do these workshops and you'd go, Okay, well what did 712 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: you think of me? And are you actually gonna call 713 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: me in for a meeting or do you want to 714 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: represent me? And and times out of a hundred, you 715 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: would just do this thing and leave with this big 716 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: question mark in your mind, but you'd be fifty bucks, 717 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: you know, poor. So I just scided I'm gonna put 718 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:49,760 Speaker 1: together this um this actor's showcase, and I rent a theater. 719 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: I started advertising in backstage West and lo and behold, 720 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: there's a real need in the marketplace for this. So 721 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: I start together these showcases where essentially, you know, uh, 722 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: I put up like twelve five minute scenes and I 723 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: would direct all the scenes. I I team be actors together. 724 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: I'd give them material out of plays or something that 725 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: that I had written, basically just to see how it 726 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: would go over. Uh. And I would and I would 727 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: team everybody up and they would go work on on 728 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,839 Speaker 1: their scenes, come back and rehearse. And then I'd put 729 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: together this showcase and I had four wall a theater. 730 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: I'd bring in a light guy, a sound guy, you know, 731 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: put basic furniture on the stage, and bring in all 732 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,399 Speaker 1: these agents and managers and casting directors. But they would 733 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: actually critique the work. So so the actors myself included, 734 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 1: would come out of this and go, hey, you like me, 735 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,280 Speaker 1: you didn't like me? Actually want to take a meeting 736 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: with me? You you want to you know whatever. And 737 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: so I started doing this and about two years into it, 738 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: UM and I was holding these showcases probably every other month. Uh, 739 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: I was paying my bills, you know, it was it 740 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: was just it was enough to get by. Plus plus 741 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: I was actually getting on stage and working and getting 742 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: my work critiqued. UM and I meet this guy who 743 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: had come in to do the showcase with me, and 744 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: we decided that we're going to write a ten minutes 745 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: scene for for the showcase. And we come up with 746 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: this concept for the scene then, and the scene is 747 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: basically going to be an a Jewish guy and a 748 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: Christian guy and they're at a Jewish singles mixer, and 749 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: we went, well, why are they each there? And we 750 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: decided that essentially, the Christian guy was at the Jewish 751 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: singles mixer because he wanted to meet and marry a 752 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,760 Speaker 1: Jewish girl so they never have to make another decision 753 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 1: in his life. And and the Jewish guy was at 754 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,839 Speaker 1: the was at the singles mixer because his mother had 755 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,320 Speaker 1: forced him to be there. But what he really wanted 756 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: to do was, you know, run off with an Asian 757 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: and this was the worst thing in the world. And 758 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: that the Christian guy had been basically convinced the Jewish 759 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: guy to teach him how to pretend to be a 760 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: Jew so that he could basically marry a Jewish goal 761 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: so he never had to make another decision. So we 762 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: put up this this ten minute scene at the showcase 763 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: and it went crazy and people were laughing. And I 764 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: had never heard a reaction to this, and anything that 765 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: I had done, from stand up comedy to all the 766 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 1: acting classes plays nothing, and and Sam and I go, hey, 767 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: we're we maybe we're onto something. And so we performed 768 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: the scene over the like the next four or five 769 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: months and start thinking, hey, do do we turn this 770 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: into like, try to write this as a TV pilot, 771 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: We try to write this as a movie. And theater 772 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,879 Speaker 1: is what made sense to me because I said, oh, hey, 773 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: this is we could do this. We can put put 774 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: on a play. And so we spend the next year 775 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: writing essentially this ten minute scene into a full length play. 776 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 1: And and when we're done writing this play, I had 777 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: been introduced to Elliott Gould and um and I had 778 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: been introduced to him through Frankie Blonde's producer Yeah, who 779 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: passed away a few years ago. And Frank had had 780 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: run Paramount and he had run MGM. He was kind 781 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: of like a legend and and Frank read the play 782 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: loved it. He said, I think maybe Elliott would like this. 783 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: He gives it to Elliott, and Elliott likes it, and 784 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: I go and meet with Elliot Gould at like five 785 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning at Nate Nows. And this was 786 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,439 Speaker 1: the craziest thing because Elliott, um, I wonder if if 787 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 1: his day to this day probably still does this. I mean, 788 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: like he would like to go to Nate now so 789 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: like five in the morning because there was nobody there 790 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: and he wouldn't get hassled, but he wanted to be 791 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: at Nate Now's I remember. We go to meet Elliott 792 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: and it's literally like five in the morning, five thirty 793 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: in the morning. And and the day before he had 794 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: like called us and you know, call her. I d 795 00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 1: on the on the phone, it shows up Elliott Gold. 796 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, like Gold to calling you 797 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: know what? That's a the phone. He's like Hi. He's 798 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: like Hi, this is Elia Gould And I'm like hey Elliott. 799 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,479 Speaker 1: He's like, you want to have breakfast with me? I'm like, yeah, 800 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: what time? He's like, how's five in the morning. Get 801 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,919 Speaker 1: they That was I'm like five in the morning. He goes, yeah, 802 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: they opened it five for five thirty. I'm like, and 803 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, you know, there's really a part 804 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: of me that's gonna go, you know. And I remember 805 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: I go, you know how It's like, how's like maybe 806 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: seven in the morning. He's like, you know, I really 807 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 1: like to go like five in the morning. I'm like, okay, fine, 808 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: five in the morning. And when this is gonna be nuts. 809 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: So go and sit down with Elia Gould and m 810 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,879 Speaker 1: and he agrees that the whole basically kind of like 811 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: host this reading workshop of this play like Elia could 812 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 1: presents um. It turns out that he that he that 813 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: what he had really connected to in the play um 814 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: was basically the play has kind of had like all 815 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: this um uh circumcision elements in it, and and Elliott 816 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: was not in favor of circumcision and uh, and he 817 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,759 Speaker 1: just and he really thought that that was that was 818 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: great in the play. And so he hosts this this uh, 819 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: this reading and we bring out like a couple hundred 820 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: people over a couple of nights to try to back 821 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: this play. We need like eighty dollars to do it, 822 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,399 Speaker 1: and a few hundred people show up and we're trying 823 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: to get everybody whatever, donate a couple of hundred bucks, 824 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,440 Speaker 1: five hundred bucks, whatever, and not no one is willing 825 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: to essentially finance this play. And um, uh, so we 826 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,760 Speaker 1: decided to rack up my credit cards and my parents 827 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: loaned me a little bit of money but not much. 828 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: Is just really just going for it, and uh put 829 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: together a whole production and open opened up the play 830 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: in in Los Angeles and it became a hit theater 831 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: at the Coast Playhouse in West Hollywood on sam Oka Boulevard. 832 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: It opened up in um, I think it was May 833 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: third or something, two thousand thirteen, and the l A 834 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: Times gave us like a rave and suddenly, you know, 835 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: you could not get a ticket to this show for 836 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,080 Speaker 1: for six months. I mean they were just lined up. 837 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: How many performances a week? We were doing five shows 838 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 1: a week and the theater was ninety nine set. But 839 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: what we had done is we had turned it into 840 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 1: like a hundred and twenties theater. We had stacked in 841 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: all these chairs into there, totally against fire code, but 842 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, we we were selling the seats and uh 843 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,439 Speaker 1: and within about a month and a half, two months, 844 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,760 Speaker 1: I had recouped the play, and suddenly I was making 845 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: a living essentially as an actor uh in in my 846 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:04,120 Speaker 1: own play that was producing and um and that went 847 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:09,240 Speaker 1: on for the next five years before the uh the movie. 848 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: Did you have any money in the bank? Was this 849 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: lucrative in any way? UM, I'd done, I've done okay, 850 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: Like when the show was in New York, I was 851 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: doing pretty well, but New York is very expensive. UM. 852 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: And then I had UM had like this traveling production 853 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 1: of it were um. Originally it was Sam and I 854 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: the guy that I wrote the show with, and then 855 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: it was just me doing another thing. And that had 856 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,719 Speaker 1: sustained me for a while. That and speaking engagement. So 857 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 1: I'd get all these um, basically speaking engagements. I'd get 858 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,280 Speaker 1: called into this fundraiser, that fundraiser and Jewish fundraisers. I assume, 859 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,720 Speaker 1: yeah mostly, And how did you get those gigs through 860 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: through an agency, through an agent? And what would they 861 00:51:54,040 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 1: be worth? Back then they're pretty good, like okay, and 862 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,839 Speaker 1: then what would you rap be what? What? What would 863 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,399 Speaker 1: they get for their money? UM? You know they'd get me. 864 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 1: I mean, what would you do? You had this note? 865 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: So I would outside go in and basically UM I had, 866 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,720 Speaker 1: you know, they usually wanted me to do like forty 867 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,600 Speaker 1: five minutes or an hour, and so I I'd go 868 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: in and basically and UM I crafted like a power 869 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:32,439 Speaker 1: point multimedia kind of comedy UM where I'd include kind 870 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 1: of bits of material UM from the play UM, but 871 00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:44,200 Speaker 1: I would tell stories and and just you know, crazy 872 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 1: stories about like my parents, UH took a trip years 873 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: ago to China and UH they went. It was through 874 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: their synagogue and they and the trip was going to 875 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: be a Kosher trip through China, even though even though um, 876 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,719 Speaker 1: even though my parents UH are not super religious, but 877 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 1: the synagogue was a Kosher trip to China. And my 878 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,959 Speaker 1: parents were telling the story about basically how the rabbi 879 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: had like a torah on like a total long that 880 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: he's totaling through the streets of China because anytime they 881 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: would like encounter like on kosher food, I guess the 882 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: Rabbi would like open up the Torah, read some sort 883 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: of read some sort of prayer, and then and then 884 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,640 Speaker 1: any dish that you know, silverware, flatwear plates, anything that 885 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,359 Speaker 1: they encountered that was like on kosher, the Rabbi could 886 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: immediately like turn it into kosher, you know, by pulling 887 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: my whipping out the torah, and uh so I I 888 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: had photos like this was like, you know, part of 889 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: the what I would do is speaking. I had photos 890 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: of like my parents like basically this roaming pack of 891 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: old Jews through China. And I mean the photos are 892 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: ridiculous because what their entire trip was was basically searching 893 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,600 Speaker 1: for Chinese Jews. When my parents, wherever you go, you 894 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,799 Speaker 1: gotta go the synagogue, right so wherever, and that's my thing. 895 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: But my parents, wherever they go, they basically have to 896 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: find the Jew anywhere anywhere in the world. They basically play, 897 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, find the Jew and and so so here 898 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: they are in China, basically just roaming through China and 899 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,439 Speaker 1: and like one of the things they did they went 900 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,640 Speaker 1: to this this this this town I'm trying to remember 901 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: the name of it, uh Nanking or something like this. 902 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: It's basically a town in China where apparently Jews lived 903 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: and Jews had settled this town and the town essentially prospered. 904 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,480 Speaker 1: And then you know, and there's a Jewish cemetery in China. 905 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,319 Speaker 1: And this was worth and my parents estimation, like a 906 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: twelve hour train trip to China in the middle of 907 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,640 Speaker 1: a winter to go find like a Jewish cemetery in China. 908 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 1: But to me, this was just comedy. I mean, this 909 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: was just pure insanity. And so, you know, so I 910 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 1: would go into these, like, you know whatever speaking engagement 911 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,720 Speaker 1: that these fundraisers tell, These tell these funny stories, um, 912 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, my upbringing and growing up and uh, and 913 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: that was essentially sustaining a living for me. You're listening 914 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,240 Speaker 1: to my conversation with Oscar winning documentary and Brian Fogel, 915 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:25,400 Speaker 1: recorded live at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. 916 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,560 Speaker 1: I hope you're enjoying this episode of the Bob left 917 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: Sex Podcast. If you want to see videos, photos, and 918 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: sound bites from Brian and the rest of my guests 919 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,280 Speaker 1: is they joined me in the studio, visit at tune 920 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,880 Speaker 1: In on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now more of my 921 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: conversation with Brian Fogel. I'm the Bob left Sets Podcast. 922 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 1: How many of those gigs, uh speaking engagements do you 923 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: think you did? M hmm? Probably over maybe four years, 924 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 1: five years. I probably did maybe on ard of them. Okay, 925 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,280 Speaker 1: very good, you know, high number. So then it stopped 926 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,279 Speaker 1: because you no longer want to do it or it 927 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: plays itself out. I can't played itself out, and I 928 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,320 Speaker 1: didn't want to do it. Um. It was really UM. 929 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: I was very focused on getting the film made. And 930 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,839 Speaker 1: so one can still see the film, right, Yeah, are 931 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:28,279 Speaker 1: you happy with the film? Mixed? Uh? Not? You know 932 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,480 Speaker 1: that I wasn't able to to do what I wanted 933 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:38,200 Speaker 1: to do creatively. UM. I had come into the production 934 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,320 Speaker 1: with like a hundred and fifteen hundred sixteen page shooting 935 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: script and then I was forced to cut out of 936 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,520 Speaker 1: it a week into the shoot. So we literally shot 937 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,480 Speaker 1: like an eighty five page script. Um. And there is 938 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,880 Speaker 1: nothing in the film that we didn't shoot. There's nothing 939 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: on the cutting room floor, literally nothing. They're not even 940 00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: a single scene nothing um and UM. So you know 941 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,800 Speaker 1: it's I think for what it was, there's it's fun, 942 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,839 Speaker 1: there's good laughs, but it's not. Um, it's not the 943 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 1: film that I wanted to make, not not by long. Okay, 944 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:18,440 Speaker 1: So that film goes to v O D when um, 945 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and I think it was October something like that, 946 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. And so at what point do you 947 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: start riding your bike again? I was really starting to ride. 948 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 1: I mean before it went to v O D. The 949 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,560 Speaker 1: film had already been finished, So it had been had 950 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:42,479 Speaker 1: been finished for I don't know ten months, eleven months, 951 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: and they were trying to figure out what they were 952 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:50,400 Speaker 1: going to do with it, um and um. So I 953 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,959 Speaker 1: was already going, um, this was not leading to other work, 954 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,439 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't It wasn't leading to really any 955 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,959 Speaker 1: opportunity these despite the film having a pretty big cast 956 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,400 Speaker 1: in it, And so I was trying to figure out 957 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,840 Speaker 1: what I was going to do. And and so that 958 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: was you know, two thousand twelve, really all of two 959 00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: thousand really all of two thousand thirteen and two thousand 960 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: thirteen is when I probably really started spending a lot 961 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,720 Speaker 1: of time on the bike. Again basically you're lost mentally, 962 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 1: you don't know where you're going, and you're obviously a 963 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 1: fan of the scene. The bike scene does a light 964 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: you have a lightbulb moment, Yeah, I mean the the 965 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: I think it was a combination. I was I was 966 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:41,000 Speaker 1: looking at other businesses, but I didn't want to be 967 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: in another business. I mean, my my my life since 968 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,760 Speaker 1: as you know, I'm twenty four years old, twenty three 969 00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,360 Speaker 1: years old, has been in entertainment and I don't. I 970 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,360 Speaker 1: didn't know anything else other than how to basically create 971 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,000 Speaker 1: and make things. And so I really, um, I didn't 972 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,040 Speaker 1: want to go into anything else. I wanted to to 973 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: continue making film. I wanted to continue um in in 974 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:10,680 Speaker 1: in that world. Um and uh so you know I 975 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:15,160 Speaker 1: grasped onto this, this idea um of kind of a 976 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: supersize me movie. Did it come to you just that quickly, 977 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,640 Speaker 1: like you're on your bike one day and all of 978 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: a sudden, you go, fuck, it's supersized me on a bike? Um? 979 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,160 Speaker 1: It was? It was. It was a process. I was. 980 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 1: I was riding bikes a lot with a with a 981 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 1: guy by the name of Tim Comerford. You might know 982 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,200 Speaker 1: who he is, Timmy c. He's the bass player for 983 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 1: Rage Against the Machine. It was a bass player, an 984 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,200 Speaker 1: audio slave. Now he's in Profits of Rage. He's had 985 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: an amazing career. And uh, Timmy and I were out 986 00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: riding a ton and and we were always, you know, 987 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,640 Speaker 1: I was we were always talking about Lance and he 988 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,600 Speaker 1: knows Lance and and the whole thing that you know, 989 00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: Lance had confessed and just philosophically about it. And you know, 990 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 1: through our conversations, I was, you know, trying to figure 991 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: out what what I wanted to do, and I grasped 992 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,480 Speaker 1: onto this idea of basically showing that the anti doping 993 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: system is a fraud. And I remember one day we're 994 01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 1: out on the bike and I'm thinking like, hey, I'm 995 01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,000 Speaker 1: gonna like go hire somebody like an athlete to go 996 01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,920 Speaker 1: do this. And Timmy's like, dude, just dope yourself, Man, 997 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:21,200 Speaker 1: you got dope yourself. I'm like, yeah, you're right. He said, yeah, Man, 998 01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 1: just dope yourself. You do the drugs, you do it, 999 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 1: you do it. I'm like, yeah, Timmy, you're right. You're right, 1000 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,840 Speaker 1: that's what I should do. And UH, and so you know, 1001 01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,760 Speaker 1: the idea essentially was was was born that I was 1002 01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,280 Speaker 1: gonna basically ride my bike, take a lot of drugs 1003 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,439 Speaker 1: and prove that the system was a fraud. Now when 1004 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:47,880 Speaker 1: was that epiphany? Now was UM probably middle of two 1005 01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,800 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen. And then it took me another year to 1006 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,640 Speaker 1: get the first UM three or fifty thousand to start 1007 01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:01,120 Speaker 1: shooting and UM and then that year I had developed 1008 01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,600 Speaker 1: essentially like a treatment and like a proof of concept, 1009 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:10,840 Speaker 1: and UH went in and started essentially talking to producers 1010 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,600 Speaker 1: about you know, like this is the idea and um, 1011 01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, and everybody kind of loved the idea. Essentially 1012 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: it supersized me in the world of sports, um with 1013 01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, not only for those people who don't know. 1014 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 1: Supersize me is the famous movie where he eats Morgan Spurlock, 1015 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,760 Speaker 1: who's now gotten caught up in the me too movement himself. 1016 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: He eats McDonald's for a month and he's assessed by 1017 01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:40,920 Speaker 1: a doctor and sees the biological effects exactly and essentially 1018 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 1: and supersize me. Basically it's McDonald's for a month, which 1019 01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,320 Speaker 1: you can imagine that is not healthy for you. But 1020 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, he basically just turns into almost like a 1021 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: dying man on on camera. Is all that he's eating 1022 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,080 Speaker 1: is basically supersize me meals from McDonald's. And the takeaway is, 1023 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, just the destroyer of how bad fast food 1024 01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,960 Speaker 1: is for you and uh and you know, in in 1025 01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: my version of it, it was really going to be, um, 1026 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:08,920 Speaker 1: A what do these drugs do? B Are they good 1027 01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: for you? Are they bad for you? But the bigger 1028 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 1: takeaway was a do they make you? Know? Do they 1029 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,440 Speaker 1: make you champion? Can you win if you were cheating? 1030 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,600 Speaker 1: Which was always kind of an idea in the back 1031 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,600 Speaker 1: of my mind, which is all the years I was 1032 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,200 Speaker 1: racing and all the years that I was writing Bike, 1033 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,160 Speaker 1: I was always wondering had I done this, would have 1034 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,760 Speaker 1: I been great? Could have I won? And on the 1035 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,040 Speaker 1: and the bigger part of it, which I thought was 1036 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,240 Speaker 1: going to be the more compelling narrative, was to show 1037 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 1: that the global anti doping system essentially was a fraud, 1038 01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,919 Speaker 1: didn't work and that lover hate Lance Armstrong, the guy 1039 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:49,760 Speaker 1: was a needle in the overall haystack of of cheating 1040 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 1: and corruption and sport. And that was what I hope 1041 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:59,800 Speaker 1: to to show. And that and that concept UM was 1042 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:05,920 Speaker 1: essentially what what got kind of this initial investment and 1043 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,360 Speaker 1: from where I don't want to say name, but what 1044 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of an individual was a company? It was a 1045 01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:16,760 Speaker 1: friend and um could that friend afford to lose? Three yes? 1046 01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:24,320 Speaker 1: And um and uh it was it was really what 1047 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,640 Speaker 1: had happened is I had UM as. I had teamed 1048 01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:31,800 Speaker 1: up UM with another producer who I don't want to 1049 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,120 Speaker 1: mention on the film and UH and he was going 1050 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:39,080 Speaker 1: to come in and produce and uh. And very early 1051 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 1: on before we actually picked up cameras um UH, we 1052 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,920 Speaker 1: got into creative differences he was looking at Icarus in 1053 01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:49,800 Speaker 1: the film, and I had named a Icarus from day 1054 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,960 Speaker 1: one before I ever picked up a camera. And you're thinking, 1055 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,560 Speaker 1: was my thinking was, is that this the story of Icarus. 1056 01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,840 Speaker 1: A myth of Icarus is basically a Chris is the 1057 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,280 Speaker 1: on of of Datalus, and he wants to basically fly, 1058 01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,360 Speaker 1: and his father says, great, you can fly, and he 1059 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 1: builds the wax wings and he says, hey, you can, 1060 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,360 Speaker 1: you can. You can fly. Just don't get too close 1061 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: to the sun or your wings are gonna burn and 1062 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna plummet to your death. And to me, that 1063 01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 1: was the story of Lance Armstrong. It was the story 1064 01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:26,240 Speaker 1: of of any athlete that had essentially been caught cheating, 1065 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,000 Speaker 1: which is them hadn't been actually caught for for taking drugs, 1066 01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,160 Speaker 1: even though they were they were taking drugs. They had 1067 01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,280 Speaker 1: been caught because they they of their own egos. They 1068 01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,280 Speaker 1: had been caught because somebody else had rated him out. 1069 01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,520 Speaker 1: They had been caught, you know, for for other various reasons. 1070 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,000 Speaker 1: But it also was the metaphor for me of of 1071 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,800 Speaker 1: anything in life, which is the idea that that you 1072 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:55,280 Speaker 1: can anything that you pushed too far. Um has an 1073 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,080 Speaker 1: adversary effect. Hopefully that will be the effect for the 1074 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:03,200 Speaker 1: current US had been rustration. But um, but that is 1075 01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,000 Speaker 1: essentially the myth of Icarus that you can you can 1076 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: fly as long as you're not an asshole. And just 1077 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,680 Speaker 1: going back to this point, because all during the victories 1078 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:17,240 Speaker 1: of Lands, Greg Laman is saying it's impossible because it's 1079 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 1: about oxygen processing and he has that process and Lamps doesn't, 1080 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 1: and he, you know, he got in trouble with his 1081 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,720 Speaker 1: bike manufacturer, et cetera. What was your view point on 1082 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 1: Laman who turned out to be right? Of course, my 1083 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, here's the thing that you know, Laman won 1084 01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,000 Speaker 1: three tours. He he could have won five tours, but 1085 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,240 Speaker 1: he got shot by his I think brother in law 1086 01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:50,520 Speaker 1: hunting and then he basically e p O rethropoe eaton, 1087 01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:56,040 Speaker 1: which is increases red blood cell mass became started being 1088 01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,920 Speaker 1: used by essentially the peloton al all the guys who 1089 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:04,160 Speaker 1: are writing, and Gallinda rain Spaniard Uh comes into cycling 1090 01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he is he is a mutant, 1091 01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: and Lamand is suddenly slow. He goes from being the 1092 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,880 Speaker 1: greatest writer in the world to just being a guy 1093 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,640 Speaker 1: in the pack and Lamand realizes that essentially that all 1094 01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,760 Speaker 1: these guys essentially are taking e p O drugs, and 1095 01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,120 Speaker 1: instead of himself choosing to use e p O, he 1096 01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:29,360 Speaker 1: essentially decides to retire from the sport and then you know, 1097 01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,920 Speaker 1: has a bitter bitter taste in his mouth. Um. I 1098 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,800 Speaker 1: don't know the whole relationship obviously between Lance and Lamand. 1099 01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:38,439 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I mean, the guy did 1100 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,440 Speaker 1: win three tours, he could have won five. Um, he 1101 01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:45,520 Speaker 1: had a decision to make that. You know, hey, either 1102 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: either you know, either either go with the flow or 1103 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,080 Speaker 1: you know or don't. He decided not to go with 1104 01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:56,520 Speaker 1: the flow, which was everybody starts taking the history. But 1105 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:58,919 Speaker 1: as you're getting into the process, is he a hero 1106 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,640 Speaker 1: or zero? When a book? Well, as a kid, he 1107 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:09,400 Speaker 1: was my hero. Um, I don't. I don't. I don't 1108 01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,240 Speaker 1: know him personally, so I don't. I don't know how 1109 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,720 Speaker 1: to comment on it. Um. I've gotten to know Lance 1110 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,920 Speaker 1: pretty well. Now, Um, what's your at this late date, 1111 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:25,520 Speaker 1: what's you're feeling? Once? Um, I was riding bikes with 1112 01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:30,880 Speaker 1: him all last weekend and nasmen and Um, you know, 1113 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:35,280 Speaker 1: he's he's complicated. But I love him or hate him? 1114 01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,439 Speaker 1: I mean the guy won seven Tour de Frances. He did, 1115 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,920 Speaker 1: he won them? And uh. And when you talk to 1116 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,080 Speaker 1: all of and this was interesting. When I was making 1117 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,240 Speaker 1: the original movie, I was talking to many of the 1118 01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:51,480 Speaker 1: guys that they're raced against him, and every single one 1119 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,080 Speaker 1: of them, and I spoke to I said, did Lance 1120 01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,040 Speaker 1: win seven tours? And I said, and they would? Every 1121 01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,680 Speaker 1: single one of them said yes. I said did he 1122 01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:03,480 Speaker 1: win the fairly? And they said yes. I said, could 1123 01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:07,480 Speaker 1: have you beaten Lance? And they said no. So when 1124 01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,880 Speaker 1: his entire peer group of everybody who raced against him 1125 01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,080 Speaker 1: during those seven Tour de France victories believes that he 1126 01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,799 Speaker 1: essentially won those tours, you got a question, this idea 1127 01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:22,760 Speaker 1: of wiping somebody else as somebody out of the history books, 1128 01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,800 Speaker 1: because when you do that with Lance, well why don't 1129 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,880 Speaker 1: you go back to and wipe out Miguel into Rains victories? 1130 01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,320 Speaker 1: Why don't you wipe out every single tour victory from 1131 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:39,479 Speaker 1: arguably who knows? When you know? Uh? And so you 1132 01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,760 Speaker 1: know it was a it was a selective persecution. Yes, 1133 01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,200 Speaker 1: the guy had lied, Yes the guy had covered up 1134 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,960 Speaker 1: the line million times, but it's not like the tours 1135 01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,600 Speaker 1: before him were one cleanly. And it's not like the 1136 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,880 Speaker 1: tours after him were one cleanly. So especially essentially he 1137 01:08:55,960 --> 01:09:00,440 Speaker 1: got you know, those seven tours stripped from him, um 1138 01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 1: for for for complicated reasons. Uh. More of I think 1139 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 1: kind of a uh a moral efficacy to show that 1140 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,960 Speaker 1: this behavior isn't going to be tolerated, You're not going 1141 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,320 Speaker 1: to be able to lie and get away with it, 1142 01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 1: rather than kind of a scientific reality of whether or 1143 01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 1: not whether you know everybody else was doing it. Um. So, 1144 01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a very complicated um situation. But I 1145 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 1: do have, you know, a lot of respect for him 1146 01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,600 Speaker 1: in the sense of the guy was single minded in 1147 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:40,680 Speaker 1: his pursuit of a victory and love them or hate him, 1148 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, I think the majority of athletes to get 1149 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,960 Speaker 1: to that level, um have to be completely single minded 1150 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,600 Speaker 1: in their focus, and he's certainly and he certainly was 1151 01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,599 Speaker 1: when it all costs and um and that's and that's 1152 01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,599 Speaker 1: what he did. And Okay, So getting back to your narrative, 1153 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,519 Speaker 1: you have this person who's gonna produce the move and 1154 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,479 Speaker 1: you have creative differences. Yeah, and so what happens after 1155 01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,360 Speaker 1: that you part ways? So um So I realized that 1156 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,240 Speaker 1: that I'm basically going into what I assessed was another 1157 01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:15,160 Speaker 1: Utopia movie situation where I wasn't going to be able 1158 01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:19,320 Speaker 1: to uh, to do what I wanted to do. Was 1159 01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:22,160 Speaker 1: that guy attached to the money, Well, what had happens. 1160 01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:26,840 Speaker 1: He wasn't giving the money, but my investor was attached 1161 01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,640 Speaker 1: to him being attached. And that was my investor's confidence 1162 01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:33,120 Speaker 1: to put in the money because because this guy was 1163 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:37,320 Speaker 1: was involved, and and this guy was seeing the film 1164 01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:40,080 Speaker 1: as basically like how you shoot a feature, how many 1165 01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,920 Speaker 1: shoot days you're gonna do, Who's going to be your crew, 1166 01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,280 Speaker 1: your insurance or this year that? And I'm thinking to myself, no, no, no, 1167 01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:48,640 Speaker 1: this is this is me with a cameraman and another guy, 1168 01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,080 Speaker 1: and we're just gonna shoot, and we're gonna shoot, and 1169 01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna shoot, and we're gonna shoot and we're gonna shoot. 1170 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:54,960 Speaker 1: And I have no idea where this going. But I 1171 01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:59,160 Speaker 1: don't need a crew on sliders and and drones and 1172 01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:01,840 Speaker 1: and you know, and twenty people on a set. I'm 1173 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,800 Speaker 1: just gonna go shoot every day. And and so I 1174 01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,040 Speaker 1: realized that this was not how I wanted to make it, 1175 01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:11,639 Speaker 1: and it wasn't anywhere what I envisioned in the film. 1176 01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: And I realized this because I's in a conversation with 1177 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,760 Speaker 1: a guy and it goes, so, wait, so you're gonna 1178 01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,880 Speaker 1: take drugs and you're gonna get super big, and I'll 1179 01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,600 Speaker 1: buffed out. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm I'm like 1180 01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:22,639 Speaker 1: a cyclist. Man, I'm going to turn into a toothpick 1181 01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna go up the mountains faster. And 1182 01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,240 Speaker 1: so he had like a whole different idea of what 1183 01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:29,879 Speaker 1: of what this was gonna be like he he imagined 1184 01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,360 Speaker 1: me turning into the Hulk, and I basically imagine myself 1185 01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,760 Speaker 1: turning into a toothpick and flying up the mountains, you know. 1186 01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:40,360 Speaker 1: So uh, there were all these things and and um, 1187 01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,519 Speaker 1: and I realized, and I'm like this, I don't want 1188 01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:47,920 Speaker 1: to make the movie under this. Um, under this notion. 1189 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,040 Speaker 1: Shall I go back to my friend? And I said, look, um, 1190 01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:55,360 Speaker 1: I want to take I want to take your money, 1191 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,040 Speaker 1: and I really want to do this, but I can't 1192 01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,479 Speaker 1: work under under this. I went through I went through 1193 01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,479 Speaker 1: really bad situations and I just need to be free 1194 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,280 Speaker 1: to create. I need to be able to to just 1195 01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,760 Speaker 1: go do this, to go make this film. And uh, 1196 01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:17,479 Speaker 1: and he basically said, go for it. I trust you, 1197 01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,000 Speaker 1: I believe in you, go go do this. And so 1198 01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,880 Speaker 1: I set out essentially on on my own with with 1199 01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:29,439 Speaker 1: a cameraman UM and then I would hire other people 1200 01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:34,960 Speaker 1: for the first year of the production. And at the 1201 01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,040 Speaker 1: end of the first year, after I had shot a year, 1202 01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,479 Speaker 1: I put together this h It was like a twenty 1203 01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,880 Speaker 1: five minute piece with at the time a guy who 1204 01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:49,120 Speaker 1: was editing on the film, T J. ROADI and uh 1205 01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,679 Speaker 1: Uh we put together this twenty five minute piece. And 1206 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,120 Speaker 1: and I had brought in an amazing writer to help 1207 01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,280 Speaker 1: me by the name of Mark Monroe uh and kind 1208 01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:05,120 Speaker 1: of a consulting editor Doug Blush. And these two guys 1209 01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:11,440 Speaker 1: UM New Dan Cogan, who's Impact Partners and Impact Finances 1210 01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:13,799 Speaker 1: doc they're one of the very few companies that actually 1211 01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:19,720 Speaker 1: financed documentary truly Finances. UM and Mark Doug see this 1212 01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,240 Speaker 1: twenty five minute piece that I did, they said, I, 1213 01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:24,439 Speaker 1: I think this is great. Let us get this to Dan. 1214 01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,920 Speaker 1: They get it to Dan, and the next day I 1215 01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,439 Speaker 1: literally get a call. Dan calls me goes, this is 1216 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:35,680 Speaker 1: this is amazing. What do you need? How do we 1217 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:37,400 Speaker 1: help you? We want to be a part of this, 1218 01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,600 Speaker 1: And that basically started the next three years of this 1219 01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,479 Speaker 1: film's journey, and you're living off the money that's part 1220 01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:47,720 Speaker 1: of the budget. Yes, during the time that I was 1221 01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:52,000 Speaker 1: making the film. Okay, so you decide to dope, when 1222 01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,400 Speaker 1: how do you actually get the dope? And how long 1223 01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:56,920 Speaker 1: do you take it? How do you feel when you're 1224 01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:05,320 Speaker 1: taking it? Um, So I decided to tell me again, 1225 01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,280 Speaker 1: how do I get the drugs? So I get the drugs. 1226 01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:11,759 Speaker 1: This this is an interesting thing. So what we consider 1227 01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,120 Speaker 1: basically as doping is the same thing that's basically being 1228 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,680 Speaker 1: sold as anti aging. So in the sport world, this 1229 01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:22,760 Speaker 1: is doping. In the in the medical science world, this 1230 01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:25,439 Speaker 1: is this is the fountain of you. But there's that 1231 01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,840 Speaker 1: guy who's like sixty five years old and every magazine 1232 01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,120 Speaker 1: who's buff who saw cybergenic? Right, Yeah, I mean it's 1233 01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:32,760 Speaker 1: basically the same thing. I mean, what they're doing is 1234 01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:37,760 Speaker 1: they're selling testosterone, h G H, thyroid d H E, 1235 01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:43,200 Speaker 1: A vitamin injections I V you know, vitamins and you know, 1236 01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,280 Speaker 1: and so so what I realized was almost all of 1237 01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,080 Speaker 1: this stuff you could get with the prescription if I 1238 01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:53,080 Speaker 1: found basically an anti aging doctor. So, um, I find 1239 01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:58,200 Speaker 1: this guy in in Veil, Colorado, Scott Brandt's he's in 1240 01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:01,760 Speaker 1: the film a little bit, and I tell Scott what 1241 01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:05,599 Speaker 1: I want to do, and he's like, sure, great, I'll 1242 01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:08,880 Speaker 1: prescribe you. He's not worried about any ethical issues. Well no, 1243 01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:13,080 Speaker 1: because I mean he's prescribing me legal you know. Basically, Now, 1244 01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm a guy who has low testosterone human growth hormone 1245 01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,400 Speaker 1: deficiency will. I mean, all guys essentially after they're like 1246 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:24,080 Speaker 1: twenty five, have low testosterone. We all have human growth 1247 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:28,120 Speaker 1: hone deficiency because our bodies basically stopped making growth hormone 1248 01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,200 Speaker 1: after we stop growing. So every human on planet Earth 1249 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,520 Speaker 1: once you're about eighteen or nineteen has a growth hormone deficiency. 1250 01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,040 Speaker 1: So that's what they prescribe under you know, low testosterone 1251 01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:42,599 Speaker 1: growth deficiency. Um. Basically, all of our thyroids generally start 1252 01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,719 Speaker 1: slowing down as our as our ability to process fats, 1253 01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:47,360 Speaker 1: which is why as you get older it's harder to 1254 01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,320 Speaker 1: lose weight. So you have a you know, whatever, a 1255 01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:54,040 Speaker 1: slow thyroid or whatever is. You can take thyroid. You 1256 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:56,519 Speaker 1: can take all these things under you know, essentially just 1257 01:15:56,720 --> 01:16:00,720 Speaker 1: under the auspices of aging. So he prescribes me all 1258 01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:04,400 Speaker 1: this stuff. Um. But the one thing that that is 1259 01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,559 Speaker 1: that is harder to get is is e p o 1260 01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,880 Speaker 1: orthropoeten And uh uh, I don't want to say how 1261 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,240 Speaker 1: I got that, but I got it. And so just 1262 01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,400 Speaker 1: in theory, how does someone someone has to get it 1263 01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,519 Speaker 1: on the black market or it's available and you have 1264 01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:22,640 Speaker 1: to get the right kind of prescription. Either either you 1265 01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:25,559 Speaker 1: can you can get on the black market. You can 1266 01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,880 Speaker 1: get it out of China and Taiwan in all these 1267 01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:29,920 Speaker 1: places if you know where, if you know where to go, 1268 01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,160 Speaker 1: and basically what what you know you can do is 1269 01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:35,800 Speaker 1: you you order a couple of them and hope that 1270 01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:38,360 Speaker 1: one of them makes to you, make it to you. Okay, 1271 01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:40,880 Speaker 1: so do you start to say, well, you know I 1272 01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:42,600 Speaker 1: got him, it's Wednesday, and start taking all of it, 1273 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:44,800 Speaker 1: or did you start with one and add another one? 1274 01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:47,439 Speaker 1: Well I had uh that was the whole thing, so 1275 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:52,280 Speaker 1: you know, um uh Gregory Rachenkov, Um, you know I 1276 01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:55,719 Speaker 1: had met him. Okay, let me go back to the movie. Okay, 1277 01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:57,960 Speaker 1: you get the doctor in Veil and then you go 1278 01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,280 Speaker 1: to the doctor U. C. L A who says he's 1279 01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:02,840 Speaker 1: in and then he's out. Yeah, I mean then the 1280 01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:07,560 Speaker 1: Don Catlin was essentially out before I ever rolled a camera. Uh. 1281 01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,080 Speaker 1: He had referred me to Gregory, and I had started 1282 01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:14,200 Speaker 1: talking to Gregory essentially in February, which was right during 1283 01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:17,839 Speaker 1: the Socy Olympics. Lo and Behold. Uh. So Don Catlin 1284 01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,400 Speaker 1: had decided not to be in the film before I 1285 01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:25,280 Speaker 1: ever started shooting. Um, and he had referred me to 1286 01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:28,120 Speaker 1: Gregory before I ever had, before I had ever started. Okay, 1287 01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:30,440 Speaker 1: so you did not even though you had the prescription, 1288 01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:33,479 Speaker 1: you didn't take anything until you spoke with Gregory. That's right, 1289 01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,000 Speaker 1: I had. I had come up with the plan, and 1290 01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:38,760 Speaker 1: the plan was we were starting. I started shooting about April. 1291 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,639 Speaker 1: The first race in Europe, this Hote route, which I did, 1292 01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,960 Speaker 1: was in August. So the plan was I was going 1293 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:50,000 Speaker 1: to train clean, which I documented and shot hundreds of 1294 01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: hours of footage. It's all basically sitting on hard drives 1295 01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,320 Speaker 1: because none of it really made it made its way 1296 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:56,400 Speaker 1: into the movie. Very a very little bit of it 1297 01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:58,519 Speaker 1: made its way into the film. I was going to 1298 01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:02,800 Speaker 1: train clean and then Gregor and I had a plan 1299 01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:09,200 Speaker 1: that basically starting in mid December January, the beginning of 1300 01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,680 Speaker 1: is when I would go on my doping program, and 1301 01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,080 Speaker 1: that would give me enough time to basically build the protocol, 1302 01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,439 Speaker 1: figure out my wash out period, which is you know, 1303 01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:27,479 Speaker 1: when you'll test clean, when you'll test positive. They're testing. Well, 1304 01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:31,640 Speaker 1: that was so that the race basically says they're going 1305 01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:35,599 Speaker 1: to test, and to my knowledge, they never tested. And 1306 01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,400 Speaker 1: so as I as I saw that after the first year, 1307 01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:42,840 Speaker 1: I realized that in order to have any sort of 1308 01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,960 Speaker 1: um legitimacy to this, that I have to basically create 1309 01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:51,439 Speaker 1: and document my own process. And so in this and 1310 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,760 Speaker 1: as I started doping, I got really religious about it. 1311 01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,280 Speaker 1: Um you know, like showing on camera, here's here's the newspaper, 1312 01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:02,280 Speaker 1: here's today's day, and my entire freezer was basically filled 1313 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:06,759 Speaker 1: with like frozen uh, piss samples, frozen urine samples. Okay, 1314 01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,320 Speaker 1: but going back, so in terms of it, I'm just 1315 01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:13,439 Speaker 1: worrying what physical effect did you feel when you started 1316 01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:18,200 Speaker 1: to take this drug? These drugs, it's incredibly subtle. So 1317 01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's this idea of oh my god, you're 1318 01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna turn into Superman. That's not it at all. Nothing 1319 01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:27,200 Speaker 1: takes the place of training, nothing takes the place of 1320 01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:31,600 Speaker 1: a hard work. What what these drugs do, or hormones 1321 01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:35,479 Speaker 1: do is essentially help your body recover so that you 1322 01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,360 Speaker 1: can train just as hard the next day and over 1323 01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,519 Speaker 1: day after day, week after week, month after month. Because 1324 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,519 Speaker 1: your body is recovering and you're able to do that 1325 01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,960 Speaker 1: same effort day in and day out, you become you know, 1326 01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:53,080 Speaker 1: fitter and stronger and faster. Uh So that is the 1327 01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:57,160 Speaker 1: the overall result. But none of that takes the place 1328 01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,559 Speaker 1: of the training and all they so, and I didn't 1329 01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,360 Speaker 1: feel It's not like I started taking all this stuff 1330 01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,280 Speaker 1: and it suddenly felt like Superman. It was more like 1331 01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:10,400 Speaker 1: I was taking all this stuff and and you know, 1332 01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,960 Speaker 1: on a day and day out basis, I was recovering. 1333 01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 1: Um and uh like the growth hormone. Whenever I would um, 1334 01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:24,080 Speaker 1: whenever I would take growth hormone, UM, my girlfriend at 1335 01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:27,679 Speaker 1: the time should go did you take h g H today? 1336 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,600 Speaker 1: And I'd be like, why do you say that? And 1337 01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,160 Speaker 1: she goes out when you smell like a baby? Um. So, 1338 01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:37,439 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, that makes sense because the 1339 01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:41,600 Speaker 1: scent that we're responding to in puppies and babies is 1340 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:45,320 Speaker 1: basically that they're making tons of growth hormone and that's 1341 01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,519 Speaker 1: what baby scent is, that's what puppy scent is. So 1342 01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,160 Speaker 1: apparently when I was taking growth hormone, I was. I 1343 01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:54,920 Speaker 1: smelled like a baby or a puppy. Very very very 1344 01:20:54,960 --> 01:21:00,080 Speaker 1: exciting for all your listeners, but um forgetting you know, 1345 01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,400 Speaker 1: the training, etcetera, and your everyday life when you were 1346 01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:10,000 Speaker 1: taking this this regiment, did you literally feel any different? Well? Um, 1347 01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:14,280 Speaker 1: my libido was great? Uh it really it really helps 1348 01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, which is an obvious thing which 1349 01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,040 Speaker 1: in men, your your sex drive and everything is is 1350 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 1: essentially how much does sastro and you have? And that's 1351 01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:26,080 Speaker 1: why as you age, you know you're you're you're not 1352 01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:31,400 Speaker 1: as fierce. I guess and so so I was, and 1353 01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I generally was like you 1354 01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:41,639 Speaker 1: know nineteen twenty again, um where you know, like, yeah, 1355 01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,160 Speaker 1: I mean that that that that was? That was an 1356 01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,559 Speaker 1: interesting idea. Um. I also, I guess, was smelling like 1357 01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:50,920 Speaker 1: a baby. But did you feel okay or did you 1358 01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,639 Speaker 1: wake up and go? I felt I felt I felt great. 1359 01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:56,840 Speaker 1: I felt great. So what about going other than because 1360 01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,639 Speaker 1: you mentioned with the derivative of all the where all 1361 01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,240 Speaker 1: this comes from, are you now a believer in anti 1362 01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:08,080 Speaker 1: aging with these drugs? I don't. I don't take uh. 1363 01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:12,760 Speaker 1: I stopped taking everything other than other than I've still 1364 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:17,040 Speaker 1: taken like a very small dose of testosterone UM to 1365 01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:20,920 Speaker 1: to maintain kind of a like a healthy level, because 1366 01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:26,720 Speaker 1: my my testosterone was actually low, legitimate legitimately low. If 1367 01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:29,760 Speaker 1: I go off of it, it's like it's legitimately on 1368 01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,639 Speaker 1: the low side. So I take like a very small, 1369 01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:37,920 Speaker 1: a small amount, like you know, like um, once a week, 1370 01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,680 Speaker 1: I'll take I'll take a small amount um. Other than that, 1371 01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:44,880 Speaker 1: I don't take any of this stuff because the h 1372 01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:46,800 Speaker 1: G H. The thing is is if you're taking h 1373 01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,639 Speaker 1: g H long term, what they say is that your 1374 01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,640 Speaker 1: forehead starts growing, that your actual bones start growing. And 1375 01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:56,040 Speaker 1: so like Gregory and and guys um, Gregory was always 1376 01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:58,479 Speaker 1: able to like look at guys and go he took 1377 01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:00,800 Speaker 1: too much HD eight, which is like if you look 1378 01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,120 Speaker 1: like a lot of these football players are big wrestlers 1379 01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:06,080 Speaker 1: and stuff, you've got these huge heads, well, you know, 1380 01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:08,760 Speaker 1: apparently that's kind of a side effect of h g H, 1381 01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,439 Speaker 1: which is your your jaw on your forehead keep growing. 1382 01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,800 Speaker 1: So you basically turned to neanderthal um. So I, you know, 1383 01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:19,160 Speaker 1: it was like, you know, I I don't want to 1384 01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, side out. I don't take any h G 1385 01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:25,200 Speaker 1: H anymore. UM, the E p O, which is increasing 1386 01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:27,320 Speaker 1: your blood red blood cell mass. There's no reason for 1387 01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:29,720 Speaker 1: me to take that either, because why do I need 1388 01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:33,040 Speaker 1: to you know, I'm not I'm not competing in racing. 1389 01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:39,360 Speaker 1: I don't need that oxygen carrying capacity um. UM. So yeah, 1390 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,560 Speaker 1: I mean, my my experience with it is that, um, 1391 01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:48,879 Speaker 1: the public perception is very different than the reality. Um. 1392 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,040 Speaker 1: And the only thing that I've that but I but 1393 01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:54,880 Speaker 1: the H G H certainly helped in recovery. That that 1394 01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:59,400 Speaker 1: is without questions. Okay, so before you find before Gregory, 1395 01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:02,559 Speaker 1: let's all the information of his history. What is the 1396 01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,920 Speaker 1: end of the movie going to be? When the end 1397 01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:09,479 Speaker 1: of the movie was hopefully going to be that I 1398 01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:13,080 Speaker 1: had beat the test, you know, the Gregory which you 1399 01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:15,760 Speaker 1: know you believe and everything that he goes. You know, 1400 01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:21,120 Speaker 1: you beat the test, and and the takeaway was woe 1401 01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:24,360 Speaker 1: if you could do this? What does this mean? You 1402 01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:28,120 Speaker 1: know clearly clearly the system has got a lot of 1403 01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot of flaws in it. Um. But at the 1404 01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,000 Speaker 1: same time I did that race the second year, I 1405 01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,000 Speaker 1: didn't do as well as I wanted to do, and 1406 01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:42,120 Speaker 1: I was and I was really questioning my my thesis 1407 01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:46,800 Speaker 1: at the time, and um, but you know, Gregory was 1408 01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:52,280 Speaker 1: under investigation, and I had spent that that year while 1409 01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:56,360 Speaker 1: I was doping and racing, I was also interviewing all 1410 01:24:56,400 --> 01:25:01,120 Speaker 1: of the guys who were investigating Russia and investigating Gregory, 1411 01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:02,960 Speaker 1: and none of them had any idea that I was 1412 01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,840 Speaker 1: working with Gregory. None of them had any idea I 1413 01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:07,680 Speaker 1: was doping. And that was how I was able to 1414 01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:12,040 Speaker 1: get those interviews where all these guys are essentially talking candidly, 1415 01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:16,479 Speaker 1: not realizing that that not only did I know the guy, 1416 01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:21,640 Speaker 1: but that I was, you know, working with him and doping. 1417 01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:23,800 Speaker 1: So what point does the bell go off in your head? 1418 01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:25,840 Speaker 1: Wait a second, I have another story here that I'm 1419 01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:29,320 Speaker 1: gonna tell. UM, I would I would consider it more 1420 01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:31,720 Speaker 1: like a ping that had been you know, had been 1421 01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,800 Speaker 1: ping ping, you know, for for about a year, where 1422 01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:38,640 Speaker 1: where clearly there was, um, there was an elephant in 1423 01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:42,439 Speaker 1: the room, but I didn't know if it was gonna 1424 01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:45,599 Speaker 1: turn into a wooly mammoth or whether it would just 1425 01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:48,479 Speaker 1: you know, kind of just go away and leave. Because 1426 01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know what this investigation was going to find, 1427 01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,800 Speaker 1: and I certainly didn't know how deeply into what level 1428 01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,120 Speaker 1: Gregory was involved because during that year and a half 1429 01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:02,920 Speaker 1: I was working with before UM the film takes his turn, 1430 01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:05,800 Speaker 1: he hadn't disclosed that to me. I mean, he had 1431 01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:07,800 Speaker 1: kind of hinted that he was, you know, but he 1432 01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:13,519 Speaker 1: had never disclosed this. UM. So, so I had I 1433 01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,840 Speaker 1: had believed, um that there was a bigger story, and 1434 01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:21,120 Speaker 1: I was working on that, on that on that story, 1435 01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:23,320 Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was, I was making sure 1436 01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,040 Speaker 1: that I had that foot in the door. But I 1437 01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:30,400 Speaker 1: also had made a very conscious decision that if I 1438 01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:35,479 Speaker 1: became Gregory's like investigator UM or if I became you know, 1439 01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:37,400 Speaker 1: basically the guy who was going to go try to 1440 01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:41,880 Speaker 1: try to do this, that that I would lose what 1441 01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:44,320 Speaker 1: my what my premise was that I wouldn't be able 1442 01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:47,320 Speaker 1: to execute my plan. And to me at the time, 1443 01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:52,400 Speaker 1: UM my my thesis, and also working with Gregory, this 1444 01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:56,759 Speaker 1: incredible character was going to be enough to make for 1445 01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:01,840 Speaker 1: an interesting and hopefully entertaining film. UM And and so 1446 01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:06,320 Speaker 1: as as that story progressed, UM, the real turning point 1447 01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:10,920 Speaker 1: to me was of course November where where WADA, the 1448 01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,559 Speaker 1: World Anti Doping Agency, releases that its findings of this 1449 01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:19,360 Speaker 1: of this investigation and it's a three report, but it 1450 01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,920 Speaker 1: is focused only on athletics track and field UH. And 1451 01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,559 Speaker 1: that was because WADA, which is in the pocket of 1452 01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:30,120 Speaker 1: the i o C, the Olympics UH, their mandate was 1453 01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:32,679 Speaker 1: only that they could investigate track and field. So even 1454 01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:36,519 Speaker 1: though Richard McLaren and Dick Pound and Go the Younger 1455 01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:41,360 Speaker 1: had uncovered all this other evidence across other sports, the report, 1456 01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:45,680 Speaker 1: the three page report, everything else was redacted out of 1457 01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:47,680 Speaker 1: that report that didn't have to do with track and 1458 01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:51,519 Speaker 1: field because WADA was still trying to essentially sweep this 1459 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:55,240 Speaker 1: under the carpet with with the ioc UM. But this 1460 01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:59,719 Speaker 1: report was damning enough that Gregory was forced to resign 1461 01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:04,000 Speaker 1: from the lab, the laboratory was suspended, and Russia was 1462 01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:08,320 Speaker 1: banned from international competition and all athletics and track and field. 1463 01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:14,680 Speaker 1: And and that basically UM followed with with Putin on 1464 01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:17,639 Speaker 1: state television because now this was a pretty big scandal, 1465 01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:22,560 Speaker 1: UM coming out and essentially saying that not only is 1466 01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:26,280 Speaker 1: Russia have nothing to do with this, and we deny 1467 01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:30,639 Speaker 1: this entire report and everything in this report. But if 1468 01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:33,920 Speaker 1: anything in this report is true, UM, it will be 1469 01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:37,320 Speaker 1: the individuals that will be held accountable and punishment will 1470 01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:40,800 Speaker 1: be absolute. And that was Gregory's death sentence. That was 1471 01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:44,280 Speaker 1: that was it right there. And and so I'm watching 1472 01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:47,160 Speaker 1: this unfold in the news media while I'm while I'm 1473 01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:51,800 Speaker 1: skyping with Gregory, and um, we're about six days into it, 1474 01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,920 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, and I'm trying to convince Gregory to 1475 01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,200 Speaker 1: let me come to Moscow. I'm like, hey, I want 1476 01:28:57,200 --> 01:28:59,120 Speaker 1: to I want to come. You know, this is now unfolding, 1477 01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:02,519 Speaker 1: and now I'm going, whoa, this is? This is the story. 1478 01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:04,720 Speaker 1: And Gregory's like, no, no, no, no, no, no no, 1479 01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:09,880 Speaker 1: do not come to Moscow. And and uh and there 1480 01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:13,280 Speaker 1: we are, and just as that is in the film. Uh. 1481 01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,360 Speaker 1: He reaches a point about six seven days in where 1482 01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,920 Speaker 1: he realizes that they're going to kill him, that they're 1483 01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,000 Speaker 1: planning his suicide. And I said, hey, let me I 1484 01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:23,479 Speaker 1: want to come to Rush. He's like no, no, no, no 1485 01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:25,639 Speaker 1: no no, I need to get out. I need to escape. 1486 01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:27,880 Speaker 1: And I'm like when when do you want When do 1487 01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:30,719 Speaker 1: you want to go? And he goes tomorrow. I said, 1488 01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:34,519 Speaker 1: I said tomorrow. He goes, hees, yeah, I need a ticket, 1489 01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:36,120 Speaker 1: buy me a ticket. I need to get a ticket. 1490 01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:40,120 Speaker 1: And and the conversation was literally happening. I think probably 1491 01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,760 Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night, you know, my time, and I 1492 01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,120 Speaker 1: go online. I find him a ticket. I'm like, okay, 1493 01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,280 Speaker 1: there's a flight tomorrow with like you know, like literally 1494 01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,320 Speaker 1: twelve hours after that, I'm like, there's a flight tomorrow. 1495 01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:55,960 Speaker 1: This this is like good, okay, book it. And I 1496 01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:58,800 Speaker 1: booked the ticket and I go, oh my god, this 1497 01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:03,160 Speaker 1: guy is coming. And and we didn't know if he 1498 01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:06,040 Speaker 1: was going to get through you know, immigration, if you 1499 01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:09,800 Speaker 1: if Russia had put a hold onto visa, but um, 1500 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,439 Speaker 1: he had a US visa because he had been lecturing 1501 01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:16,600 Speaker 1: in the United States UM on anti doping, and the 1502 01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:20,360 Speaker 1: head of the US Anti Doping Agency, Travis Tiger, had 1503 01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:23,120 Speaker 1: given Gregory the visa to come lecture in the United 1504 01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:25,120 Speaker 1: States on anti doping even though he was the anti 1505 01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:29,519 Speaker 1: anti doping Lab director. And Russia, because it was seven 1506 01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:33,120 Speaker 1: days after this whole report just hadn't got around it. 1507 01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:34,720 Speaker 1: You know, it was so fast that they hadn't put 1508 01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:38,080 Speaker 1: a stop on his on his on his visa, They 1509 01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:40,519 Speaker 1: hadn't put it into you know, into interpoll to stop 1510 01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,640 Speaker 1: him from traveling, and so he was miraculously able to 1511 01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:49,120 Speaker 1: get out. He arrives in Los Angeles and about a 1512 01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:55,000 Speaker 1: month later, right about Christmas, I realized that this is 1513 01:30:55,880 --> 01:31:01,560 Speaker 1: essentially this a scandal on a magnet. That's that's unfathomable, 1514 01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:06,240 Speaker 1: um and that and that the evidence he has essentially 1515 01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:14,320 Speaker 1: changes all of Olympic history. We'll pause here for a 1516 01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:21,240 Speaker 1: brief moment and get right back to Brian Fogel. Many 1517 01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:23,559 Speaker 1: of you already know that I'm a writer, but for 1518 01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:26,160 Speaker 1: those who think I'm just the host of this podcast, 1519 01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,760 Speaker 1: check out my archived and left sets dot com in 1520 01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,200 Speaker 1: addition to reading my commentary on music tech in the 1521 01:31:32,200 --> 01:31:34,320 Speaker 1: world at large. Will be the first to find out 1522 01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:37,120 Speaker 1: where we're publish a new podcast. Go to left sets 1523 01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:40,240 Speaker 1: dot com and sign up for the news letter. Now 1524 01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:44,120 Speaker 1: more with Academy Award winning filmmaker Brian Fogel, recorded at 1525 01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:49,040 Speaker 1: the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Now, do you 1526 01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:52,559 Speaker 1: think deep inside when he was working with you, he 1527 01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:55,200 Speaker 1: had an urge to get this story heard or it 1528 01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:58,040 Speaker 1: just happened by accident. You've been asked that question so 1529 01:31:58,080 --> 01:32:02,080 Speaker 1: many times, and I think it was it was a 1530 01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:06,160 Speaker 1: combination of things. We we developed a really big trust 1531 01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:10,040 Speaker 1: between us and and the trust was was a friendship 1532 01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:13,680 Speaker 1: that I think crossed any boundaries of a of a 1533 01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,400 Speaker 1: of documentary film. And and I think it was because 1534 01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,120 Speaker 1: at the time I was the subject and he was 1535 01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:25,320 Speaker 1: the advisor. And then it flips and he becomes the 1536 01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:29,800 Speaker 1: subject and I become his advisor and protector and and 1537 01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:34,080 Speaker 1: so we we had this trust and and and he 1538 01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:37,120 Speaker 1: liked that it was devious. He saw me as kind 1539 01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:38,760 Speaker 1: of devious. He saw me as a guy who was 1540 01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:42,200 Speaker 1: out there to kind of buck the system. H Gregory 1541 01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:47,639 Speaker 1: loved Armstrong Lance, huge fan, and like the idea that 1542 01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:49,839 Speaker 1: I was going to show that you know, that Lance 1543 01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:53,040 Speaker 1: was just one of of of you know, of so 1544 01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,799 Speaker 1: many and and he liked that I as an athlete 1545 01:32:56,800 --> 01:32:59,719 Speaker 1: because he is an athlete. And and in his mind 1546 01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:02,360 Speaker 1: he had justified which is kind of like maybe like 1547 01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:05,599 Speaker 1: a Russian thing. He basically went, oh, Brian's an amateur athlete, 1548 01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:09,040 Speaker 1: so it's okay. Even though even though you know, even 1549 01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:12,360 Speaker 1: though everything he's doing was against all water code, he 1550 01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:15,000 Speaker 1: kind of decided that because I wasn't like basically a 1551 01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:17,960 Speaker 1: Russian professional athlete, that this was not going to be 1552 01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:21,880 Speaker 1: a big deal, which is kind of insane to think, 1553 01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:25,880 Speaker 1: but that is, uh, that's what happened. And and there 1554 01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:29,400 Speaker 1: was never a dime of money exchanged ever. H But 1555 01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:32,840 Speaker 1: at this late date, he's still in hiding, right, Yeah, 1556 01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:35,320 Speaker 1: and his family is still in Russia, that's right. And 1557 01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:41,080 Speaker 1: his family safe from what I've heard. Yes, Okay, So 1558 01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:44,080 Speaker 1: now this all happens, at what point do you say, 1559 01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:47,200 Speaker 1: not only do I have a different film here, but 1560 01:33:47,280 --> 01:33:51,160 Speaker 1: this is gonna be a big story and I'm gonna 1561 01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make Hay with his film. Well, um, I 1562 01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:02,559 Speaker 1: knew that it was a really big story right at 1563 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,080 Speaker 1: the end of you know, right as this was happening, 1564 01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:10,880 Speaker 1: the question really became between me and my my producing team, 1565 01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:16,840 Speaker 1: Dan Cogan, David Fialco, Jim Schwartz, Um was how are 1566 01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:20,800 Speaker 1: we going to get this story out? How are we 1567 01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:25,320 Speaker 1: going to see to it that this that that his 1568 01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:28,599 Speaker 1: evidence could be proven as true? How were we going 1569 01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:32,839 Speaker 1: to protect him? And how were we going to manage 1570 01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:36,760 Speaker 1: this crisis? And and you know, and I truly had 1571 01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:38,920 Speaker 1: his life in my hand. Um, you know, we went 1572 01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,760 Speaker 1: to using burner phones, We took our edit offline, we 1573 01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:45,480 Speaker 1: moved our production offices four times, we moved Gregory's location 1574 01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,559 Speaker 1: four times. I mean, it became a cat mouse games 1575 01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:54,599 Speaker 1: as the stakes were increasing and UM, and we brought 1576 01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:59,639 Speaker 1: on a crisis manager, Mike Citric, very very well known guy. 1577 01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:02,160 Speaker 1: The New work Times last week had a huge front 1578 01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:05,679 Speaker 1: cover Sunday story on him, and and he's considered the fixer. 1579 01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,240 Speaker 1: He's a guy that like every guy like even Trump. 1580 01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:11,880 Speaker 1: Trump went to him in his bankruptcies, Kobe Bryant went 1581 01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,240 Speaker 1: to him with when he was Michael Jackson went to him. 1582 01:35:14,520 --> 01:35:17,599 Speaker 1: Most recently, Harvey Weinstein went to him, and Mike Citric 1583 01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:20,880 Speaker 1: basically dismissed him as a client once he realized, you 1584 01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:24,320 Speaker 1: know how bad this was. UM. But so we bring 1585 01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:29,719 Speaker 1: on Citric and and what we were trying to figure 1586 01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:33,240 Speaker 1: out was how we were going to get him, uh 1587 01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:36,760 Speaker 1: the right lawyer, and how we were going to bring 1588 01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:42,640 Speaker 1: this story public and UM and all these elements, you know, 1589 01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:46,160 Speaker 1: between the FBI getting involved, between Nikita Kamaia of his 1590 01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:49,960 Speaker 1: friend who was running Russata dying, we realized we were 1591 01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:52,800 Speaker 1: out of time, and we made a decision that we 1592 01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,240 Speaker 1: were going to go to the New York Times and UH, 1593 01:35:56,479 --> 01:36:00,720 Speaker 1: Mike and Sally Hoffmeister his his partner, UM basically called 1594 01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:04,680 Speaker 1: Dean back and say the editor the editor of the 1595 01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,759 Speaker 1: New York Times and say, um, we have the Moscow 1596 01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:10,840 Speaker 1: Lab director and he'd like to talk. Would you like 1597 01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:14,520 Speaker 1: to come out to Los Angeles? And the next day 1598 01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:19,120 Speaker 1: Rebecca Ruiz and Michael Sartz come to Los Angeles and myself, 1599 01:36:19,240 --> 01:36:23,240 Speaker 1: Dan Cogan and Gregory Rachenkov sit for three days with 1600 01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:26,440 Speaker 1: The New York Times and we had prepared this dossier, 1601 01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:31,040 Speaker 1: this like three page three uh, you know, three ring 1602 01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:35,360 Speaker 1: binder of essentially, you know, one of the greatest gifts 1603 01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:38,160 Speaker 1: ever given to the New York Times. It was it 1604 01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:41,679 Speaker 1: was here it is, guys, here is the biggest scandal 1605 01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,120 Speaker 1: in the history of sports, wrapped up in a bow 1606 01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:48,800 Speaker 1: in a silver box. You know that we've already engraved 1607 01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,920 Speaker 1: n y T and uh. And we sat there for 1608 01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:57,720 Speaker 1: three days and we presented everything, Gregory presented everything. Um, 1609 01:36:57,760 --> 01:37:01,040 Speaker 1: and they ran the story front page the following week, 1610 01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:04,680 Speaker 1: huge story, you know, with a whole fold out, and 1611 01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:07,080 Speaker 1: then the following day with another front page with a 1612 01:37:07,120 --> 01:37:11,600 Speaker 1: fold out and uh. And then the whole chain of 1613 01:37:11,960 --> 01:37:16,839 Speaker 1: events continued to to transpire that ultimately lead to Russia 1614 01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:20,400 Speaker 1: being banned from the Olympics. So you make the movie 1615 01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:24,479 Speaker 1: and the movie premieres at Sundance. Yeah. So it premieres 1616 01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:31,520 Speaker 1: uh in January of last year, January at Sundance, and 1617 01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:35,120 Speaker 1: and I did not feel like the film was finished. 1618 01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:38,479 Speaker 1: My creative team didn't feel like the film was finished. 1619 01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:43,160 Speaker 1: We the story was still unfolding. Uh. And yet you know, 1620 01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:46,920 Speaker 1: when Sundance calls, you have six weeks to finish your film. UH, 1621 01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:49,040 Speaker 1: And anybody who's made a film knows that that is 1622 01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:50,840 Speaker 1: not a lot of time. And so all of a 1623 01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:53,360 Speaker 1: sudden you're in this crazy race to getting your sound mixed, 1624 01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:57,160 Speaker 1: on getting everything. Then, but we went into Sundance with 1625 01:37:58,080 --> 01:38:00,680 Speaker 1: with a film. You know, I think everybody saw it, 1626 01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:04,080 Speaker 1: Sundance loved it, and uh, but in my mind, it 1627 01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:07,360 Speaker 1: was not It was not where it needed to be 1628 01:38:07,360 --> 01:38:12,040 Speaker 1: because the story was was was was was still unfolding. UM. 1629 01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:18,040 Speaker 1: And Netflix acquires it, and Lisa Nishimura and Adam Deldeo 1630 01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:25,920 Speaker 1: incredible partners, and and in essentially the negotiations, the first 1631 01:38:25,960 --> 01:38:31,839 Speaker 1: conversation is basically, uh, films not finished. And they agree 1632 01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:36,040 Speaker 1: and they allow me and my team basically the next 1633 01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:40,080 Speaker 1: five months to continue to work on the film to 1634 01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:44,320 Speaker 1: complete it. And we finished the film basically about this 1635 01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:48,599 Speaker 1: time last year, and then it aired premiered on Netflix 1636 01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:53,400 Speaker 1: in August following like Sundance London and a f I 1637 01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:57,160 Speaker 1: Dock and a bunch of festivals that had opened, and 1638 01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,800 Speaker 1: you're happy with the finished product. There's nothing in that 1639 01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:04,439 Speaker 1: film that that that I don't want, and there's nothing 1640 01:39:04,479 --> 01:39:07,599 Speaker 1: in that film that I would want to put in. Okay, 1641 01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:11,160 Speaker 1: So when it comes out, I mean, maybe it's an 1642 01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:13,960 Speaker 1: Olympic year. But it took, like it seemed from the outside, 1643 01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,040 Speaker 1: it took a while for the story to build in 1644 01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:22,360 Speaker 1: public consciousness. Did you feel that it did? Um? It was. 1645 01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:26,479 Speaker 1: It was certainly building in the sense that the New 1646 01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:33,040 Speaker 1: York Times story, the following stories, the investigation. Um. But 1647 01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:35,800 Speaker 1: I think as as kind of as big as the 1648 01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:39,200 Speaker 1: story was in the global press and certainly seeing it 1649 01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:48,760 Speaker 1: in papers all over the world, um, I think a film, um. 1650 01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,400 Speaker 1: And certainly, you know, Netflix being a hundred ninety countries, 1651 01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:56,760 Speaker 1: a million homes all of a sudden, Watching something on 1652 01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:02,480 Speaker 1: a television is very different than reading something in a newspaper. 1653 01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:08,720 Speaker 1: So okay, if we're reading about let's say, the immigrants crisis, 1654 01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,840 Speaker 1: is a separation going on between families right now, we 1655 01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:13,559 Speaker 1: can read about that in a paper and go, oh 1656 01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,240 Speaker 1: my god, that's terrible, or we might see a clip 1657 01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,240 Speaker 1: of that on CNN and go, oh my god, that 1658 01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:22,439 Speaker 1: is that is horrendous, But in the hands of the 1659 01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:27,520 Speaker 1: right creative team, and you craft that into into a narrative, 1660 01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:31,639 Speaker 1: which what we did with Icarus with music and sound 1661 01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:35,280 Speaker 1: and graphics and visual effects and animation and everything that 1662 01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,240 Speaker 1: is in that film. I think, um, it has the 1663 01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:43,280 Speaker 1: power uh to to really resonate. And I think that 1664 01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:49,839 Speaker 1: when the film came out, Um Gregory um became somebody 1665 01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:53,040 Speaker 1: not you know, a deviant on the pages of the 1666 01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:56,120 Speaker 1: New York Times who had orchestrated this doping plot, but 1667 01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:59,920 Speaker 1: became human and you see him for who he is 1668 01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:07,800 Speaker 1: as this lovable, incredible character that basically is is is complicated, 1669 01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:11,680 Speaker 1: but you know, but fully redeemable and and wants to 1670 01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:14,400 Speaker 1: come forward with the truth and tell the truth. You 1671 01:41:14,439 --> 01:41:17,800 Speaker 1: see that the size and scope of the scandal in 1672 01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:20,559 Speaker 1: a in a visual way of what this really was 1673 01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:23,360 Speaker 1: in the Denial of Russia. And I think that those 1674 01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:27,880 Speaker 1: elements um resonated and set off kind of a whole 1675 01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:32,840 Speaker 1: other um cascading um uh you know, domino effect. Because 1676 01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:35,880 Speaker 1: in the in the film as it sits right now, 1677 01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:38,880 Speaker 1: it says that Russia is going to the Winter Olympics 1678 01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:44,080 Speaker 1: and in August, and when we finished the film this 1679 01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:48,120 Speaker 1: time last year, that was true. But the film and 1680 01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:52,320 Speaker 1: what it's set off in the media, and then the 1681 01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:56,360 Speaker 1: work of Gregory's legal team and the work of the 1682 01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,840 Speaker 1: pr team behind the film was able to keep this 1683 01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:03,759 Speaker 1: story in the media, keep showing how big this fraud 1684 01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:07,800 Speaker 1: was and forced the Olympics to take action, which they 1685 01:42:07,840 --> 01:42:11,160 Speaker 1: didn't want to do. They did not want to write. 1686 01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:14,120 Speaker 1: Now from your perspective, though, because we live in a 1687 01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:17,120 Speaker 1: world where there are so many media messages, it's hard 1688 01:42:17,160 --> 01:42:20,320 Speaker 1: to break through. And you were at the epicenter. But 1689 01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:24,000 Speaker 1: did you feel as the months went by from August 1690 01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:27,320 Speaker 1: to the Olympics, could you feel the film having a 1691 01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:32,960 Speaker 1: greater attention in the world at large? Of course, and um, 1692 01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,160 Speaker 1: and it was a combination of the film being seen 1693 01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:39,840 Speaker 1: and and people like you and everybody you know that 1694 01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,479 Speaker 1: that the word of mouth And what I've found in 1695 01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,639 Speaker 1: the last year of this is has everybody's seen the film? 1696 01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean Lance Armstrong included, you know, they see the 1697 01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:51,040 Speaker 1: film and then they go tell every one of their 1698 01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:52,720 Speaker 1: friends that, oh my god, you have to see this, 1699 01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,679 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you have to see this or people 1700 01:42:54,720 --> 01:42:57,000 Speaker 1: have seen the film two times, three times, four times. 1701 01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:02,040 Speaker 1: I was, I was, um, you know last week, you know, 1702 01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:03,840 Speaker 1: and this happens to me all the time I met somebody, 1703 01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:05,840 Speaker 1: he goes. So I saw the film because a friend 1704 01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:07,479 Speaker 1: of mine told me I had to see it. And 1705 01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:10,880 Speaker 1: then um, I made my kids watch it, and then 1706 01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:13,320 Speaker 1: we watched again with the entire family. And then we like, 1707 01:43:13,360 --> 01:43:16,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and the and we just amazing things in 1708 01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:20,480 Speaker 1: the film. You know, when you have Putin's denial, extrapolate 1709 01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:23,040 Speaker 1: that to every other thing he says relevant of doping, 1710 01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:26,120 Speaker 1: and when you see the scratches in the bottles from 1711 01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:30,200 Speaker 1: them previously being open, it's like better than any fiction movie. Yeah, 1712 01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:33,240 Speaker 1: and there it is, and and and I think that 1713 01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:35,640 Speaker 1: you know what what happened is as you see this 1714 01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:41,679 Speaker 1: film and in the edit after Sundance, of course Trump 1715 01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:45,759 Speaker 1: had come into office, there was evidence that the election 1716 01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:48,719 Speaker 1: was hacked, and of course all the denials of truth 1717 01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:51,759 Speaker 1: and fake news and stuff. But we made a very 1718 01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:54,880 Speaker 1: conscious decision creatively that we weren't going to go there. 1719 01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:56,880 Speaker 1: We weren't going to get into the election. We weren't 1720 01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:00,080 Speaker 1: going to but we wanted to leave people with it 1721 01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:04,160 Speaker 1: and I think and I think we succeeded in this 1722 01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:08,599 Speaker 1: that we wanted to leave people with a Okay, if 1723 01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:12,120 Speaker 1: Russia was capable of this, is there any doubt that 1724 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:17,479 Speaker 1: they could do that? And also if Putin lies about this, 1725 01:44:17,640 --> 01:44:20,559 Speaker 1: is there any doubt as to what else he's willing 1726 01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:25,160 Speaker 1: to lie about? And then and and hopefully mirror what 1727 01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:30,000 Speaker 1: has been the continuing effect of of um, you know, 1728 01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:33,120 Speaker 1: the the ongoing scandal and what's you know going on 1729 01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:37,680 Speaker 1: in the Mueller investigation, etcetera. So we we wanted to 1730 01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:40,320 Speaker 1: to have that resonate, which is the themes of of 1731 01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:46,160 Speaker 1: orwell and double think and that narrative which is which 1732 01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:51,080 Speaker 1: is truly unfolding on a daily basis um in this 1733 01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:56,320 Speaker 1: country and and certainly you know has been in Russia. UM. 1734 01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:59,400 Speaker 1: So that was kind of a very conscious decision that 1735 01:44:59,439 --> 01:45:03,320 Speaker 1: we made in creative process to leave those events out, 1736 01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:07,599 Speaker 1: but to hopefully leave the viewer with this feeling of 1737 01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,280 Speaker 1: angst um and kind of a pit in their stomach 1738 01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:18,519 Speaker 1: of how corrupt uh uh it's not only sport is 1739 01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:23,160 Speaker 1: but but the geopolitical process behind it. Well, you've certainly 1740 01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,360 Speaker 1: achieved your goal, and you really truly made a classic film, 1741 01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,880 Speaker 1: even though it's stated a specific time, the lessons will 1742 01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:33,240 Speaker 1: live for many decades beyond that. And the obvious question, 1743 01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:34,960 Speaker 1: and I'm surely not the first one to ask you 1744 01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:41,559 Speaker 1: this either, is now what UM? You know they up 1745 01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:47,280 Speaker 1: into the Oscar Race UM the Academy Awards. You know, 1746 01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:50,800 Speaker 1: I didn't have time to to focus on what I 1747 01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:53,160 Speaker 1: was going to do next. But but I've had a 1748 01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:58,880 Speaker 1: lot of UM things in in the Zeyecheist UM and 1749 01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:03,680 Speaker 1: so there's there's a narrative feature that I'm attached to 1750 01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,840 Speaker 1: that I can't quite discuss yet to direct it, and 1751 01:46:09,479 --> 01:46:12,360 Speaker 1: it's an extraordinary script on a on a true story 1752 01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:17,439 Speaker 1: that is as as resonant and and politically relevant as 1753 01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:21,600 Speaker 1: Hicarus UM. There's a couple of unscripted doc series that 1754 01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm working on developing that that I hope to be soon, 1755 01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, going out with UM. And there's a couple 1756 01:46:28,760 --> 01:46:34,320 Speaker 1: of doc projects that I'm looking to produce UM. So 1757 01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of I I have a lot of 1758 01:46:37,479 --> 01:46:39,719 Speaker 1: ideas and things that I want to do, and and 1759 01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, with with all the creative process, it all 1760 01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:45,479 Speaker 1: takes time to to come together. So it doesn't it's 1761 01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:48,400 Speaker 1: not like a an overnight thing, even if other people 1762 01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:51,760 Speaker 1: want to work with you. Um, but I but I 1763 01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:54,920 Speaker 1: have um projects right now that I'm passionate about that. 1764 01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm that I'm working to get off the ground. Now. 1765 01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure it wasn't your goal in making this film. 1766 01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,240 Speaker 1: Certainly hearing you for the last hour to win an Oscar, 1767 01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:08,040 Speaker 1: But in this particular case you did, okay, And on 1768 01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:11,720 Speaker 1: some level that's a pinnacle of you know, pure appreciation 1769 01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,320 Speaker 1: winning the Oscar. But in this particular case, it's for 1770 01:47:14,360 --> 01:47:17,280 Speaker 1: a film that's not evanescent. It's not something Oh, it's 1771 01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:23,360 Speaker 1: a life trifle. Okay. Does having been to the mountaintop, 1772 01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:26,400 Speaker 1: is it easy to then go back and say I'm 1773 01:47:26,400 --> 01:47:30,960 Speaker 1: gonna make another film or is there somewhat a feeling 1774 01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:35,280 Speaker 1: I've done that I need a new challenge. Well, I 1775 01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:41,280 Speaker 1: think that's um it's an interesting question because, uh, this 1776 01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:43,880 Speaker 1: is kind of the second time of my life on 1777 01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:46,160 Speaker 1: a different level where I've felt like I kind of 1778 01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:49,720 Speaker 1: went to the mountaintop and and when I had this 1779 01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:51,719 Speaker 1: play and it went to New York and then became 1780 01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:55,760 Speaker 1: a big success, and um, I said to myself, well, 1781 01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:57,799 Speaker 1: how am I going to top this? How do I 1782 01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to go do Gutopia too. I 1783 01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:03,280 Speaker 1: didn't want to. Like I, I was like, well, anything 1784 01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,719 Speaker 1: I do is not going to you know, is not 1785 01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:10,000 Speaker 1: going to have this same thing. And I and I 1786 01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:13,639 Speaker 1: kind of became trapped in it in a way because 1787 01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:16,560 Speaker 1: I think that's that idea of having this whatever is 1788 01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:19,320 Speaker 1: as as a musician whatever you have this iconic album 1789 01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, and and how you're going 1790 01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:24,680 Speaker 1: to top that? And it's and it's why you know, 1791 01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:28,240 Speaker 1: Roger Waters is still playing The Wall after all these 1792 01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:31,160 Speaker 1: years and Dark Side of the Moon because it's well, hey, 1793 01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:33,559 Speaker 1: you keep putting out new music, but it's not The Wall, 1794 01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:35,680 Speaker 1: it's not Dark Side of the Moon, it's not led 1795 01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:38,280 Speaker 1: Zeppelin to you know, it's just how you're going to 1796 01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:42,679 Speaker 1: top that? UM. And and so then to have this 1797 01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:46,519 Speaker 1: UM with Icarus on on a whole other level, on 1798 01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:50,160 Speaker 1: a on a global level. But the recognition of the 1799 01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:55,280 Speaker 1: of the Oscar which UM was just the most humbling 1800 01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:58,320 Speaker 1: of moments in my life. I just I still can't 1801 01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:02,200 Speaker 1: believe it. I that that that that we this team 1802 01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:08,320 Speaker 1: one one and and going on that journey and going 1803 01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:13,679 Speaker 1: on that stage alongside Dan and Jim and David and 1804 01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,800 Speaker 1: that was that was I don't. I don't know how 1805 01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:18,000 Speaker 1: you ever topped that, So I don't. I don't think 1806 01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:21,479 Speaker 1: I look at how to essentially top it. I think 1807 01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:25,200 Speaker 1: I look at how I can kind of move forward 1808 01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:28,719 Speaker 1: like creatively and do things um that I'm passionate about. 1809 01:49:28,760 --> 01:49:34,280 Speaker 1: So for me, UM, it's why I'm looking to um 1810 01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:40,360 Speaker 1: take a leap back into directing UM scripted feature because 1811 01:49:41,240 --> 01:49:45,960 Speaker 1: it won't be compared to Icarus, so it'll be it'll 1812 01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:50,840 Speaker 1: be another challenge for me to to use you know, 1813 01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:58,360 Speaker 1: those my my creative um uh skills or or mind 1814 01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:04,360 Speaker 1: to craft something hopefully of of relevance. And and and 1815 01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:08,479 Speaker 1: also if I'm producing in the documentary space, which is 1816 01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:13,799 Speaker 1: what I'm which is what I'm looking to start to do, UM, 1817 01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:17,360 Speaker 1: the films can live independently and not be judged against Chorus. 1818 01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:20,880 Speaker 1: So I know that if I go and immediately go 1819 01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:24,240 Speaker 1: direct another doc feature, no matter what it is, it 1820 01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:26,840 Speaker 1: will immediately be compared to Icarus, and it'll be like, 1821 01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,400 Speaker 1: well it's it's not Icarus. Well, well it can't be 1822 01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:32,479 Speaker 1: because I'll never be able to replicate that story or 1823 01:50:32,520 --> 01:50:36,120 Speaker 1: that journey. So I need to take a step back 1824 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:42,680 Speaker 1: and and go find another creative outlet and and continue, 1825 01:50:43,040 --> 01:50:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, in the dock space um in uh in 1826 01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:49,559 Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of a hands 1827 01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:56,680 Speaker 1: off sense. Uh and but I I uh, I'm just 1828 01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:59,160 Speaker 1: kind of taking it a day at a time and 1829 01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:02,639 Speaker 1: try not to put much pressure on myself, um and 1830 01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:05,840 Speaker 1: uh and hopefully that the next journey will be successful 1831 01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:08,400 Speaker 1: or if it's not, all I'll go back to director's 1832 01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:11,120 Speaker 1: jail and then figure out how to how to start 1833 01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:13,719 Speaker 1: a kill. You have a long history of picking yourself up. 1834 01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:16,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the process may be painful, but you've always 1835 01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:19,400 Speaker 1: seemed to find the next thing, whether it be you know, 1836 01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:24,120 Speaker 1: going to become a comedian, doing the showcases, doing the 1837 01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:27,160 Speaker 1: one man show, you know, etcetera. So in any event, 1838 01:51:27,400 --> 01:51:30,519 Speaker 1: this has been wonderful, very insightful. I think we've gotten 1839 01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:34,080 Speaker 1: a three D picture far beyond the movie and far 1840 01:51:34,160 --> 01:51:37,040 Speaker 1: beyond other things that I've read, that people get to 1841 01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:39,840 Speaker 1: understand who you truly are, where you came from. So 1842 01:51:39,920 --> 01:51:42,439 Speaker 1: this has really been great, really edifying and interesting, and 1843 01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:45,639 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks Bob as Uh, You're 1844 01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:51,320 Speaker 1: a fantastic interviewer, because in all the interviews that that 1845 01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:54,760 Speaker 1: I've given around this and there's been a lot. I 1846 01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:59,040 Speaker 1: found myself talking about things that I've I've not spoken 1847 01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:02,519 Speaker 1: about in in any interview that I've done well. That 1848 01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:05,240 Speaker 1: certainly puts a smile on my face. And I was 1849 01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:08,160 Speaker 1: also anxious with something that has gotten so much attention. 1850 01:52:08,640 --> 01:52:11,799 Speaker 1: So I think we covered the basics and also the pnumbra. 1851 01:52:12,080 --> 01:52:19,200 Speaker 1: Thanks again, Thanks Bob. That wraps up this week's episode 1852 01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:21,439 Speaker 1: of the Bob Left Sets podcast, recorded live at the 1853 01:52:21,439 --> 01:52:24,920 Speaker 1: two In Studios in Venice, California. I hope you enjoyed 1854 01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:29,040 Speaker 1: this conversation with Oscar winning filmmaker Ryan Fogel. I certainly did. 1855 01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:31,679 Speaker 1: I saw the movie. You should bial it up on Netflix. 1856 01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:34,320 Speaker 1: Hanging in There. It takes a wild twist, some of 1857 01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:36,800 Speaker 1: which we've covered. Your eyes will bug out and a 1858 01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:39,920 Speaker 1: orderately be Abob bike racing. Lit'll be about America and 1859 01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:43,160 Speaker 1: Russia and the world it later. It's a riveting story 1860 01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:45,080 Speaker 1: and I can't wait to see what he does next. 1861 01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:50,160 Speaker 1: Until that time, email me comments questions negative things that 1862 01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:53,400 Speaker 1: Bob and left sets dot Com. Until next time, I'm 1863 01:52:53,439 --> 01:53:02,559 Speaker 1: Bob left Sets out to do me try