Speaker 1: So she's lying.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying she's I'm saying she's.
Speaker 1: Mistaken, but everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2: I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
Speaker 2: that night.
Speaker 3: Angela Caneppa. If you listen to it, she hammers and moment,
Speaker 3: and I think if I'm saying, there's a your if
Speaker 3: they paid as closest attention to this trial as I have,
Speaker 3: that's a red flag.
Speaker 1: What happens to you if you come in here and
Speaker 1: admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered
Speaker 1: perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds.
Speaker 2: Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel it
Speaker 2: should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1: I want to know what happens to you if you
Speaker 1: come in here and admit that.
Speaker 2: What should happen to anybody is they should have death
Speaker 2: given to them.
Speaker 4: This is the pipeson Masaker returned to Pike County season four,
Speaker 4: episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand.
Speaker 4: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with
Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidacer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that
Speaker 4: George Wagner Fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
Speaker 4: he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose
Speaker 4: trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all
Speaker 4: charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions
Speaker 4: from his own lawyer the day before. George Wagner's surprising
Speaker 4: testimony continues for a second day. Wagner continued defending himself,
Speaker 4: denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took
Speaker 4: no part in planning or covering up the brutal murders.
Speaker 4: But on a second day of testimony, George Wagner faced
Speaker 4: a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Auntiekneppa,
Speaker 4: questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous
Speaker 4: statements George Wagner gave to investigators.
Speaker 5: George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.
Speaker 6: He is on trial for murder in the Pie County
Speaker 6: massacre that happened in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4: Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie,
Speaker 4: and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the
Speaker 4: stand on the forty third day of his trial, defense
Speaker 4: attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner
Speaker 4: about his use of Facebook.
Speaker 5: Now, did you use Facebook.
Speaker 2: On and off?
Speaker 4: Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell
Speaker 4: items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to
Speaker 4: talk to friends, including Frankie Rodin.
Speaker 7: With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your
Speaker 7: mother to.
Speaker 5: Use your account?
Speaker 2: Not to my knowledge.
Speaker 7: Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password?
Speaker 2: Not to my knowledge?
Speaker 4: However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access
Speaker 4: the social media passwords.
Speaker 5: Did you ever have.
Speaker 7: An issue with your mother trying to access your fault her?
Speaker 4: Not?
Speaker 2: Really, I'm not gonna say accessing about constantly looking over
Speaker 2: my shoulder trying to get the password to it. I
Speaker 2: changed my password like daily because she would try and
Speaker 2: figure out what my password was. How do you know
Speaker 2: that she was always looking over my shoulder when I
Speaker 2: put my password in?
Speaker 5: Is that before the murders?
Speaker 2: Far back as I've had an iPhone.
Speaker 4: George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page
Speaker 4: his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing
Speaker 4: to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted
Speaker 4: the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and now
Speaker 4: I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the
Speaker 4: Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't
Speaker 4: know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped,
Speaker 4: but he said he assumed they were during.
Speaker 5: That time frame.
Speaker 7: What was your mindset, so to speak about the investigation
Speaker 7: and whether your family was guilty or not doing What
Speaker 7: was your mindset?
Speaker 5: Though?
Speaker 2: I believed that they were just trying to frame my
Speaker 2: mom and my brother and my family for the fact
Speaker 2: that they didn't have anybody else to look at.
Speaker 5: Why did you think that?
Speaker 2: Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement
Speaker 2: was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close
Speaker 2: the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.
Speaker 4: The fear of law enforcement also led George to think
Speaker 4: his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.
Speaker 2: From the way I understood it was that BCI would
Speaker 2: stoop to any level to get information about my family,
Speaker 2: and that they would try and send a woman in
Speaker 2: there to get close to me or my brother and
Speaker 2: get information.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 7: Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on
Speaker 7: the recordings between you and your brother about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and
Speaker 2: married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust,
Speaker 2: not with everything that our family was being accused of.
Speaker 4: George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he
Speaker 4: did not trust her.
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: Multiple different reasons?
Speaker 5: Take your time and.
Speaker 2: Reason one. When she first broke up my brother and
Speaker 2: then got back with him, I just thought it was
Speaker 2: weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want
Speaker 2: to be with somebody who was accused of what we
Speaker 2: were being accused.
Speaker 5: Of, all right? Were there other reason?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: The second reason was she had come up with a
Speaker 2: story about her childhood that she and her brothers and
Speaker 2: her mother was part of some cult for some church
Speaker 2: in Texas, and I had guessed the church ended up
Speaker 2: selling kids the sex, slavery or something like that.
Speaker 5: All right, Was there any other reason?
Speaker 2: The other one was I came home from work one
Speaker 2: week and my son said that Bessett told him that
Speaker 2: you shoot bad people with AR fifteen's.
Speaker 4: George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want
Speaker 4: Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio, didn't.
Speaker 2: Feel my son was safe around her.
Speaker 5: Did you want to kill her?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: What did you want?
Speaker 2: I just wanted her to move out of the house.
Speaker 4: Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was
Speaker 4: a loving and caring uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George
Speaker 4: about his nickname for his niece. George said that when
Speaker 4: Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to
Speaker 4: playfully call her SuDS.
Speaker 2: She was playing one day in a bucket full of
Speaker 2: water that she was sitting in and was fielful of soap, and.
Speaker 5: So you gave her the nickname sugs.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 4: After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to
Speaker 4: Jake about his daughter.
Speaker 5: During those conversations. Did you know that he had killed her?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 5: What was his demeanor when you brought up sucks?
Speaker 2: Depends on what I was going on, but usually it
Speaker 2: turned into a fight in an argument about what. Anytime
Speaker 2: I would save it made a face like Hannah, or
Speaker 2: it looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he
Speaker 2: would throw a fit.
Speaker 5: You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you
Speaker 5: love Yes? Did you kill these people for her?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 5: Would you ever do.
Speaker 2: That now.
Speaker 4: Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8: Do you think, Steph that this testimony humanizess George Wagner
Speaker 8: in anyway.
Speaker 9: I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both
Speaker 9: things can be true. I think if we've learned anything
Speaker 9: just in the process of making this podcast and following
Speaker 9: it for as long as we have, it's just that
Speaker 9: certain people can be a lot of things at the
Speaker 9: same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this
Speaker 9: does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other
Speaker 9: he's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that,
Speaker 9: according to this compassionate testimony he knew very well.
Speaker 4: And both things may be true.
Speaker 8: This is a good example of the defense adding a
Speaker 8: rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.
Speaker 8: It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points
Speaker 8: about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd, and it
Speaker 8: could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,
Speaker 8: is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's
Speaker 8: story because all they have to do is just turn
Speaker 8: one juror in favor of George.
Speaker 9: I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what
Speaker 9: hot water he and his family were in at that time.
Speaker 9: The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts.
Speaker 9: On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to
Speaker 9: marry Elizabeth before they returned to piked In.
Speaker 4: And on the other.
Speaker 9: Side of it, why would you add somebody else to
Speaker 9: the equation that has to keep your story straight? And
Speaker 9: if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or
Speaker 9: is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide
Speaker 9: his fate.
Speaker 4: Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake
Speaker 4: also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children.
Speaker 4: Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner
Speaker 4: the fourth.
Speaker 7: Did you and your brother have the same ideas on
Speaker 7: how to how to raise your respective children?
Speaker 2: No, not by a long shot.
Speaker 5: Can you explain.
Speaker 2: My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the
Speaker 2: house for her entire life until she graduated college.
Speaker 5: What was your idea of how to raise it?
Speaker 2: My idea of it was, I guess you could say
Speaker 2: I spoiled him. I didn't ever tell him that whatever
Speaker 2: he wanted, I got it for him, and I got
Speaker 2: a lot of hell over.
Speaker 1: That, and my.
Speaker 2: Main plan was that eventually when he was older, all
Speaker 2: kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you
Speaker 2: say or do, They're going to make their own mistakes.
Speaker 2: I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're
Speaker 2: going to do it anyway, whether you tell them not
Speaker 2: to or whether you tell them to do what, they're
Speaker 2: going to do it. So my way of fixing that
Speaker 2: was I was just going to end up building like
Speaker 2: a great big lake one day on whatever piece of
Speaker 2: property I bought, and have his own cabin on it
Speaker 2: from time he turned as teenager, so when he was
Speaker 2: out drinking and party in which he's going to do
Speaker 2: all kids do it, that he would be there and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't worry about he running up and down the
Speaker 2: roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did.
Speaker 5: Did you discuss this with your brother?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 5: Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on? Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: Is that a source of disagreement between.
Speaker 2: You and you as.
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 5: All over the objection?
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a massive disagreement.
Speaker 4: Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake
Speaker 4: and George agreed on one thing that was at their
Speaker 4: mother Angela Wagner should have custody of their kids should
Speaker 4: anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the
Speaker 4: backdated custody documents that Angela prepared, claims he did so
Speaker 4: without looking at them.
Speaker 2: I came home one day and I was going to
Speaker 2: my room, change clothes and go back out the door,
Speaker 2: and my mom said that she was filling one out
Speaker 2: for my brother and asked if I wanted one that
Speaker 2: was more legit than the handwritten when I had. And
Speaker 2: I told her if she wanted that, she had like
Speaker 2: ten minutes to get it, and I had to get
Speaker 2: and I signed. My neighbor walked out.
Speaker 5: Okay, so break that down a little bit, all right.
Speaker 5: Do you remember when.
Speaker 2: That was sometime early twenty sixteen?
Speaker 7: All right?
Speaker 5: And the document that you signed, had it been completed?
Speaker 5: Was it blank? What did you know about?
Speaker 7: It?
Speaker 2: Was just like a printed out for him.
Speaker 5: Did you read it? No?
Speaker 2: I just signed my name to it.
Speaker 5: And what'd you do after you sign your name?
Speaker 2: I walked out the front door and left again.
Speaker 5: And what was your understanding of this document she wanted
Speaker 5: to you de signed? You were coming at it out
Speaker 5: and changing.
Speaker 2: I just assumed she was making another one that was
Speaker 2: more legitimate looking in my handwritten one.
Speaker 4: Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8: So the defense has been trying to show George as
Speaker 8: a Karen attentive, smart with it person and father. But
Speaker 8: the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents
Speaker 8: on a whim to me undercuts the.
Speaker 10: Caring and attentive father image.
Speaker 8: It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care,
Speaker 8: that he would just sign something without thinking about it
Speaker 8: or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts
Speaker 8: to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing
Speaker 8: undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.
Speaker 9: Which is a completely fair point, I would say. In
Speaker 9: the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony
Speaker 9: so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and
Speaker 9: stand apart from his other family members. It also shows
Speaker 9: that he was pretty conditioned to do.
Speaker 4: Whatever his mother said.
Speaker 9: Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're
Speaker 9: telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing
Speaker 9: with his mother and that his family was always doing
Speaker 9: some kind of a scam or a con and that
Speaker 9: he just looked the other ways, or through his hands
Speaker 9: up and didn't really think much of it.
Speaker 10: Well, the defense can't have it both ways.
Speaker 8: They can't say on the one hand that he is
Speaker 8: a carrying, attendive father who thinks everything through and it's
Speaker 8: independent of his family, but then also just signs a
Speaker 8: document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her.
Speaker 8: Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will
Speaker 8: see throw.
Speaker 4: Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to
Speaker 4: distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to
Speaker 4: chopping up cars for insurance money.
Speaker 5: Did you ever make money other than driving.
Speaker 2: Trucks multiple different ways?
Speaker 10: Did you ever cut up trucks?
Speaker 5: Yes, explain it.
Speaker 2: My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by
Speaker 2: that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a Diesel
Speaker 2: Shavy or whatever contruck really, but they would owe on
Speaker 2: the truck and they would want out from under it.
Speaker 2: So I'd give him five hundred to one thousand dollars
Speaker 2: and they'd give me the truck and give me a
Speaker 2: week to chop with up and sell it. And then
Speaker 2: they reported stole and turned in on the insurance company.
Speaker 5: And so explain how that works as far as chopping up,
Speaker 5: and so you.
Speaker 2: Just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you
Speaker 2: sell it's part different parts of different people.
Speaker 5: And you did that when you lived on Peterson. Yes,
Speaker 5: do you know approximately how many trucks believe?
Speaker 4: Five Later defense tourney John Parker pivoted to address the
Speaker 4: damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's
Speaker 4: descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments.
Speaker 7: Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do
Speaker 7: you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother
Speaker 7: and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do
Speaker 7: you remember any of that?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: What do you remember?
Speaker 2: The conversations I believe you're talking about is that if
Speaker 2: all of us were arrested, that my mother should get
Speaker 2: the best one.
Speaker 5: And did you say that?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: Why did you say that?
Speaker 2: Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five
Speaker 2: days a week while we were gone. Anyway, they were
Speaker 2: used to being with her for five days a week,
Speaker 2: and I feared it would be easier on my children.
Speaker 5: What were you thinking, you said?
Speaker 2: I was just going under what basically I understood from
Speaker 2: the attorneys that if we got arrested, that it could
Speaker 2: take six months, it could take two years to get
Speaker 2: to a trial and be able to work things out.
Speaker 7: Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened
Speaker 7: to your mother saying something about being framed?
Speaker 5: Yes, what do you recall?
Speaker 2: My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.
Speaker 2: That's why I believe that we were being framed, because
Speaker 2: they said that they were twisting everything that my mom
Speaker 2: and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they
Speaker 2: were trying to frame us.
Speaker 7: And was that your mindset during these conversations. Yes, after
Speaker 7: listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how
Speaker 7: do you feel about what Jake was saying and what.
Speaker 5: You now know he did?
Speaker 2: I now know that he was just flying through his
Speaker 2: teeth to me. What about your mother the same thanks,
Speaker 2: she's just lying to me from the beginning.
Speaker 7: Did you ever tell your mother referencing these reportings, did
Speaker 7: you ever tell your mother you would take the blame
Speaker 7: for these murders?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I did not.
Speaker 9: So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother.
Speaker 4: We know this.
Speaker 9: He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he
Speaker 9: was being raised frankly by career criminals and in his opinion,
Speaker 9: his brother was very selfish and manipulative, and at this point,
Speaker 9: whether this is before the murders or even after the murders,
Speaker 9: George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.
Speaker 8: George likes to claim that he knew the whole time
Speaker 8: his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,
Speaker 8: according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses
Speaker 8: to believe their story about what happened in and around
Speaker 8: the Roaded massacre. It just doesn't line up about the
Speaker 8: explanation George gave earlier. He knows their liars, yet accept
Speaker 8: their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of
Speaker 8: things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely
Speaker 8: going to bring up a cross because they want to
Speaker 8: really highlight them for the jury.
Speaker 4: Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most
Speaker 4: potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator
Speaker 4: Ryan Schiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat,
Speaker 4: but a comment made out of frustration and anger.
Speaker 7: One of the conversations we listened to in both your
Speaker 7: brother and your mother, and you were kind of in
Speaker 7: the background, your mother said something about their framing us.
Speaker 5: You remember that, yeah, and that she would take the
Speaker 5: death company. Yes, you remember that at that time.
Speaker 7: Did you know your mom and brother were involved in
Speaker 7: these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it
Speaker 7: was In that same conversation, Jake says he will get
Speaker 7: out one way or another.
Speaker 5: Do you remember that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, at that time did you know he had killed
Speaker 7: these people?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I was on the assumption that he was referring to
Speaker 2: if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 7: And then your voice is in the background and you say,
Speaker 7: ain't gonna have the electric.
Speaker 5: Chair or words to that.
Speaker 2: Yes you remember that.
Speaker 5: Yes, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2: I just get irritated when people were messing with my
Speaker 2: family and stuff, especially when I've been out for five
Speaker 2: days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine,
Speaker 2: and it makes you irritable.
Speaker 7: Did you know at that point that your mom and
Speaker 7: brother were actually guilty of anything?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 5: Are you guilty of any of these events?
Speaker 12: No?
Speaker 7: On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your voice say.
Speaker 1: I want to kill Ryan.
Speaker 2: Yes, I said that.
Speaker 5: What did What did you mean by that explain context.
Speaker 2: It was more blind, like when you're angry at somebody
Speaker 2: you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean that you
Speaker 2: mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at
Speaker 2: one point or another.
Speaker 7: There was another comment you made to your brother during
Speaker 7: one of these full calls about you telling people the
Speaker 7: truth is the reason we're in this mass. You remember that, yes,
Speaker 7: can you explain it?
Speaker 2: In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed
Speaker 2: at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies,
Speaker 2: which he does to almost everybody he's around.
Speaker 4: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 4: a moment. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning
Speaker 4: of George Wagner by again asking him if he had
Speaker 4: any involvement in the murders.
Speaker 5: Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No?
Speaker 5: Before it happened to Joe. No, after it happened to
Speaker 5: je No.
Speaker 7: Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about No.
Speaker 5: Did you ever talk to your mom about it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: You're dead now. If you had known this was going
Speaker 5: to happen, what would you do?
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped it.
Speaker 2: One way or another.
Speaker 5: Did you love him?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 5: Did you consider frank you a good friend?
Speaker 2: I consented me my best friend.
Speaker 7: Looking at Wagner Zhibit fifty three, Dash Law, this is
Speaker 7: your wedding photo right.
Speaker 2: Yes, you have one arm around, who Tabby?
Speaker 5: You have another arm around?
Speaker 2: Who haves Frankie?
Speaker 4: Here again? Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8: We knew when we saw the photo from George and
Speaker 8: Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was
Speaker 8: influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that
Speaker 8: to be true. This was a big moment where both
Speaker 8: of the families got together and it highlights their relationships.
Speaker 9: We'll share it on our social media, but it's a
Speaker 9: pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of
Speaker 9: how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is
Speaker 9: either dead or accused of their murder.
Speaker 5: The statement cross exam.
Speaker 4: Here's Law on Crime's investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy.
Speaker 11: I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed
Speaker 11: watching him on direct because I felt that he just
Speaker 11: seemed calm, and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just
Speaker 11: seemed to have answers for everything, and that kind of
Speaker 11: made me wonder a little bit, because you can't have
Speaker 11: you can't always have answers for everything. But he seemed
Speaker 11: to have an answer for everything. Obviously, he's been prepped,
Speaker 11: he's had years to think about this. But at the
Speaker 11: same time, he seemed to be doing a good job
Speaker 11: on the stand during direct.
Speaker 5: The prosecution focus did on George Wagen to the force
Speaker 5: honesty today on the witness stand.
Speaker 4: After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner
Speaker 4: came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor
Speaker 4: and Jacineppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he
Speaker 4: and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship.
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him
Speaker 1: your best friend? Yes, so in twenty twelve, you have
Speaker 1: your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at
Speaker 1: your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had
Speaker 1: you ever.
Speaker 2: Talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December.
Speaker 1: Late December of twenty fifteen. Yes, okay, And isn't it
Speaker 1: true that you told us that you didn't even know
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel.
Speaker 2: I have met her one time in my life.
Speaker 1: But at the Border, when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: you said you had never met her, that the last
Speaker 1: person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl
Speaker 1: named Angel, and that was before you got married in
Speaker 1: twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: Angel was before Chelsea.
Speaker 1: You indicated at the border that the last person you
Speaker 1: knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel,
Speaker 1: and that was when you still had your pulling chuck,
Speaker 1: which was before you got married.
Speaker 2: Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but not
Speaker 2: that I remember.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie
Speaker 4: Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He
Speaker 4: explained that he didn't have as much time for friends
Speaker 4: when he began long haul driving, also after his own
Speaker 4: son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory.
Speaker 1: So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant
Speaker 1: for nine months and Ruger was six months at the
Speaker 1: time of burse that's at least fifteen months where you
Speaker 1: didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her, never met her.
Speaker 1: But Frankie was your best friend.
Speaker 2: Yes, who I considered my best friend who you block
Speaker 2: on Facebook, who I did not walk on Facebook.
Speaker 1: Well, he was blocked on your Facebook.
Speaker 2: It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay.
Speaker 1: And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either.
Speaker 5: Did you?
Speaker 2: Not very many that I remember.
Speaker 1: As in zero, not that I remember, okay.
Speaker 4: And you can have a question George's relationship with the
Speaker 4: mother of Frankie, Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier
Speaker 4: in the child She alleged that there was bad blood
Speaker 4: between George and Frankie.
Speaker 1: You remember Chelsea testifying, Yes, okay. Is it true that
Speaker 1: you reached out to her at.
Speaker 2: Some point, at one point in time by me and
Speaker 2: Chelsea started talking, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: And Frankie found out about.
Speaker 2: That, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, Yes
Speaker 2: to I explained that he was nothing more than friends.
Speaker 1: Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that
Speaker 1: put a you guys held a grudge against each other
Speaker 1: after that, and no, your.
Speaker 2: Friendship, we did not grudge against each other after that.
Speaker 1: Okay. So she's lying.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying she's lying, saying she's mistaken.
Speaker 1: Okay, But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know
Speaker 1: his name.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 1: You also indicated that Frankie was a fighter, yes, that
Speaker 1: you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes, And that you
Speaker 1: would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone
Speaker 1: in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what
Speaker 1: you said.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I don't see Frankie let anybody mess.
Speaker 1: With his family, yeah, or Kenneth right.
Speaker 2: I don't see anybody in their family, let anybody mess
Speaker 2: with their family.
Speaker 4: And Jakanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated
Speaker 4: his own family and wanted to escape them. She does
Speaker 4: this by referencing a conversation Jeorge had in twenty eighteen
Speaker 4: with his new girlfriend Josie.
Speaker 1: And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed
Speaker 1: yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you
Speaker 1: hardly even liked him at which point in time, any
Speaker 1: point in time.
Speaker 2: From early time, childhood, it wasn't that bad with him.
Speaker 2: We were just little kids, but the older we got
Speaker 2: the worst. He died, okay, and at the last point
Speaker 2: I might get ten good days out of one hundred
Speaker 2: with him, maybe.
Speaker 1: Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen right to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really
Speaker 1: close with my family, you're kind of warning her or
Speaker 1: making sure that she's okay with that, because you were
Speaker 1: contemplating having her come live with you.
Speaker 2: Right, not at the house house staying in though, Say
Speaker 2: it again, not that the house I was staying in.
Speaker 1: Though, But you wanted her to come live with you.
Speaker 2: I want her to move down here eventually, because that's
Speaker 2: what she was talking about. But I wasn't going to
Speaker 2: let her move in the house with my mother.
Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,
Speaker 1: So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking
Speaker 1: to your mother on the phone, when you said that
Speaker 1: you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where
Speaker 1: I can still make a living and where me and
Speaker 1: Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and
Speaker 1: whoever else we decide to bring so we can have
Speaker 1: a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and
Speaker 1: the drama from everyone.
Speaker 2: Am I allowed to explain this?
Speaker 1: Did you say that?
Speaker 2: Yes? I said that? Okay, Am I allowed to go
Speaker 2: into details this? Sure, it doesn't mean live in the
Speaker 2: same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he
Speaker 2: has a house on one corner. She has a house
Speaker 2: on one corner, and I've got a house on corner.
Speaker 1: Okay, kind of like what you guys were considering doing
Speaker 1: when you moved to Missouri. Right.
Speaker 4: In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the
Speaker 4: prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents
Speaker 4: at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him
Speaker 4: on the discrepancy between what he said then and what
Speaker 4: he was saying now on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: I know you talked about your mother and you said, well.
Speaker 2: You describe her to me, she is thanks you better
Speaker 2: than everybody. Thanks. Everything has to be done her way.
Speaker 2: I would probably say that I could put selfish in
Speaker 2: that manipulative.
Speaker 1: And again, I mean, this is new and different than
Speaker 1: what you told us at the border.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: That's not what you said about your mother at the border.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: I don't remember what I said at the border.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling.
Speaker 1: I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably
Speaker 1: even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom
Speaker 1: is not controlling. You were asked your mom's not controlling,
Speaker 1: you said no at all. Do you remember saying that.
Speaker 2: I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, is that true.
Speaker 2: That she's not controlling?
Speaker 1: Correct?
Speaker 2: As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad
Speaker 2: that I can remember, but she got worse as the
Speaker 2: years went by.
Speaker 1: Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that
Speaker 1: question and you said she's not controlling.
Speaker 2: She tried to do or not as far as actually
Speaker 2: controlling me, No, she didn't, okay, but she tried to
Speaker 2: control me. If that answers your question.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,
Speaker 1: considering you said one thing at the border, and you
Speaker 1: said an entirely different thing yesterday and today.
Speaker 4: So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish,
Speaker 4: George tried to explain why he was willing to sign
Speaker 4: away custody of a son.
Speaker 1: You talked about these custody documents that you and your
Speaker 1: brother signed, and your mother forged the signature for panah
Speaker 1: On correct, all in the same magical day.
Speaker 5: Correct y.
Speaker 1: You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the
Speaker 1: kitchen table in your house.
Speaker 2: It was in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: In the kitchen, okay, So you agree with that.
Speaker 2: I agree. I signed my name to mine in the
Speaker 2: kitchen and left.
Speaker 1: Okay, And you indicated you just sign that. Yes, so
Speaker 1: you trust your mother.
Speaker 2: I trust my mother seventy five eight percent. There's some
Speaker 2: parts of her I don't trust.
Speaker 1: Okay, But you signed this document saying if you were
Speaker 1: to be killed or something happened to you, she would
Speaker 1: get your child.
Speaker 2: Who else would I leave him to? I have no
Speaker 2: one else to leave him to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not
Speaker 1: when you signed those documents.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what date was on it. I signed
Speaker 2: it early sixteen.
Speaker 1: You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact date.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: because that was when it was printed.
Speaker 5: Off the computer.
Speaker 2: Could be I don't know the exact date, but it
Speaker 2: was sixteen. I didn't pay much attention to another seeing
Speaker 2: it had my signature.
Speaker 4: And Jacineppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that
Speaker 4: he signed. She once again pressed George and why he
Speaker 4: signed them without paying attention.
Speaker 2: You could look at that and it's the document that signed,
Speaker 2: So that is.
Speaker 1: Your signature, yeah, okay. And you see the date at
Speaker 1: the bottom there, yes, okay. And it's that consistent with
Speaker 1: your experience. As far as your computer spitting out the
Speaker 1: date something is printed.
Speaker 2: Off the computer, I couldn't tell you, and I don't
Speaker 2: use computers that much.
Speaker 1: But this is dated March eleventh or twenty fifteen. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh or
Speaker 1: two fifteen.
Speaker 2: No, I signed it the day it was printed off.
Speaker 1: So I mean you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can see that, Okay. I just don't see
Speaker 2: how me signing my name is forgery.
Speaker 1: Well, it was backdated.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,
Speaker 2: from what I can remember, when I signed.
Speaker 1: My name, she just signed your name to a completely blank.
Speaker 2: Document, to a custody document. She said, sign my name.
Speaker 2: I signed it, walked out.
Speaker 1: But you wanted to leave your child with your mother.
Speaker 2: If something was ever that happened to me? Yes, I had.
Speaker 2: There was no one else to leave it to him again.
Speaker 1: You had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting
Speaker 1: that was going to be taken because.
Speaker 2: It's something to do with law enforcement, and I was
Speaker 2: raised at law enforcements. Crooking tries to twist everything.
Speaker 1: Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes.
Speaker 2: I was not that it was right, but that's how
Speaker 2: I was raised. It took me a long time to
Speaker 2: realize that it was wrong.
Speaker 1: And that no matter when did you realize that?
Speaker 2: When I realized that my dad was wrong and it
Speaker 2: was actually hurting people.
Speaker 1: So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,
Speaker 1: the stealing of stuff out of the traitors, Yes, but
Speaker 1: you didn't swear off a life of crime just that
Speaker 1: particular when you realize there actually were victims.
Speaker 2: Indeed, I went with the stealing fuel and loads. I
Speaker 2: quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I
Speaker 2: can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being
Speaker 2: considered illegal, was the Duramax being. Rick asked after that
Speaker 2: it was just dear honey.
Speaker 4: Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his
Speaker 4: life of crime behind him, Angie Caineppa questioned George Wagner
Speaker 4: about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including
Speaker 4: using a fake address to get his trucking license.
Speaker 2: You that.
Speaker 1: So it's an application for a driver's license, correct?
Speaker 2: Yes? Okay?
Speaker 1: And what address did you put down there?
Speaker 2: Ok?
Speaker 1: Okay? That is not where you were living.
Speaker 2: No, it's my grandmother's form, I remember. Correct, it has
Speaker 2: something to do with l right, now, that's why used
Speaker 2: that address.
Speaker 1: Well, you're providing false information to a state agency. Correct.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 4: Prosecutor Angie Caineppa then showed George Wagner a series of
Speaker 4: gun receipts and purchase forms.
Speaker 1: So you know that you have to put accurate information
Speaker 1: on those forms, correct, Yes, it's a federal offense not
Speaker 1: to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, okay, So if
Speaker 1: you could go ahead and look at it and tell
Speaker 1: us what address you put down there?
Speaker 2: It's eight or five Vessel Hill.
Speaker 1: Rid Okay, but that's not relived.
Speaker 2: Not the time my license had expired, and when I
Speaker 2: bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what
Speaker 2: was on the driver's license. I had then taking time
Speaker 2: to change it.
Speaker 1: Actually, that's not permitted.
Speaker 2: That's what that was advised five other people I bought
Speaker 2: them from. They said to put the addresses on my license.
Speaker 1: You understand that making any false, oral or written statement,
Speaker 1: or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to
Speaker 1: this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony. Yes,
Speaker 1: under federal law. Yes, but at least three, at least
Speaker 1: these three forms, you did not provide accurate information correct.
Speaker 2: As far as the driver's license address up.
Speaker 4: After George Wagner admitted lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa
Speaker 4: move to point out other key discrepancies and George Wagner's testimony,
Speaker 4: particularly around when he went to bed the night of
Speaker 4: the murderers.
Speaker 6: Prosecutors saying twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone
Speaker 6: to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of
Speaker 6: the murders after watching a movie with his family. However,
Speaker 6: in his testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm.
Speaker 1: You said that the night of the homicides you went
Speaker 1: to bed at ten o'clock.
Speaker 2: Can issue if I remember correctly, It's been.
Speaker 1: A long time, okay, all right, and so do you
Speaker 1: recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that
Speaker 1: the four of you, well, the six of you. Actually,
Speaker 1: your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself were watching a
Speaker 1: movie and you were up until you didn't go to
Speaker 1: bed till twelve thirty.
Speaker 2: Don't remember what kime was. Okay.
Speaker 1: Do you remember telling the border at the border, the
Speaker 1: agents when they asked you about what you did that night,
Speaker 1: you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you
Speaker 1: and how delicious they were, and she makes the best
Speaker 1: and maybe one day she could make them for them.
Speaker 2: I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say.
Speaker 2: I just said I don't remember.
Speaker 13: Okay.
Speaker 1: You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember
Speaker 1: what a movie that wanted to watch.
Speaker 2: I just I remember watching a movie of the kids
Speaker 2: at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's
Speaker 2: been a long time.
Speaker 1: And you indicated that that is when your son would
Speaker 1: usually go to sleep as well.
Speaker 2: My son usually went to sleep ten or eleven usually. Okay,
Speaker 2: there is what I can remember.
Speaker 1: Is there a reason that you would lie to the
Speaker 1: people at the border.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember
Speaker 2: what time to like told them that, Okay, I mean
Speaker 2: it may have been I just from my remembory. Now,
Speaker 2: I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be
Speaker 2: wrong about that, that's what I remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and
Speaker 1: Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't
Speaker 1: know that. You don't know that up. No.
Speaker 4: Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However,
Speaker 4: Jake said that George did not fire any shots.
Speaker 1: You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris
Speaker 1: call his phone and you saw the phone calls.
Speaker 2: Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when
Speaker 2: Chris had.
Speaker 1: Died, right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said.
Speaker 2: I know my brother's time is off on everything that's
Speaker 2: been showed in here.
Speaker 1: So now we know, at least according to Jake, that
Speaker 1: Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: I think that's what he said, which makes your story
Speaker 1: at the border impossible.
Speaker 2: Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said to
Speaker 2: the border.
Speaker 1: Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell
Speaker 1: the truth when you were interviewed.
Speaker 2: At the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said,
Speaker 1: as much as do you agree that it would be
Speaker 1: more accurate back then.
Speaker 2: I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay, you agree that you were trying to be honest
Speaker 1: with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to lie to them.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree on that you certainly weren't trying.
Speaker 1: To provide a cover story for you and your brother
Speaker 1: and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole
Speaker 1: idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say
Speaker 1: that we were all together a family night movie night watching,
Speaker 1: watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up
Speaker 1: when you told no the people at the border. It
Speaker 1: just happened to be the same story that you guys
Speaker 1: had agreed in advance to tell.
Speaker 2: There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down,
Speaker 2: my kid didn't want him to leave.
Speaker 1: So your story today or yesterday is that you actually
Speaker 1: went to that at ten.
Speaker 2: From what I remember at this point in time, I
Speaker 2: believe it was tannish.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how could Jake and your father have been
Speaker 1: up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Geary less
Speaker 1: than an hour after you went into your bedroom.
Speaker 2: I can't answer that. I don't know.
Speaker 4: Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at
Speaker 4: Local twelve.
Speaker 3: When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at
Speaker 3: ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Kaneppa and Andy
Speaker 3: Wilson looked at each other almost like pointed at each
Speaker 3: other like, haha, we have not heard what George had
Speaker 3: to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at
Speaker 3: the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in
Speaker 3: May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot
Speaker 3: of that. They have not played any of that. They
Speaker 3: played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not
Speaker 3: played any of George's. And I think there was a
Speaker 3: strategic reason behind that, because they might have expected that
Speaker 3: George was going to testify for himself and they did
Speaker 3: not want him to hear what he had to say
Speaker 3: back then, so he could they can catch him in
Speaker 3: a contradiction, and they did and it was a big one.
Speaker 3: So they spent a lot of time and they hammered
Speaker 3: him on Angela Caneppa, if you listen to it, he
Speaker 3: hammers a moment and I think if I'm saying there's
Speaker 3: a juror, if they paid his closest attention to this
Speaker 3: trial as I have, that's that's a red flag.
Speaker 4: The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags
Speaker 4: as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned
Speaker 4: a Walther Colt twenty two pistol.
Speaker 1: Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Has your brother ever owned one?
Speaker 2: Too? More knowledge? No?
Speaker 1: So his testimony he had this for more than a year.
Speaker 1: You were unaware of that.
Speaker 2: If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that
Speaker 1: weapon in two thousand fifteen.
Speaker 2: Now I see what the pictures his the back then.
Speaker 2: I didn't think.
Speaker 1: That he hid it from you. What is it he
Speaker 1: hit it from you?
Speaker 2: If he's had it that long, he must have.
Speaker 1: Why she's got a curiosity. Why would you do that?
Speaker 1: Because you guys keep those your guns in your safe right.
Speaker 2: According to my brother's statement, he said that he'd owned
Speaker 2: every one of them guns on that list, and I've
Speaker 2: not seen over half of what's under his name.
Speaker 1: You feel to answer the question, you guys, keep your
Speaker 1: guns in.
Speaker 2: Your safe, correct most of them.
Speaker 1: So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of.
Speaker 2: I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of young.
Speaker 1: Over a year. He owned a gun and you were
Speaker 1: oblivious to it.
Speaker 2: It's very well possible.
Speaker 4: Here again journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 3: George has said he never saw and has never seen
Speaker 3: the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was
Speaker 3: used in the murders, even though agen Scheider texted them
Speaker 3: a picture of Jake holding it that they got off
Speaker 3: at Jake's phone, so they'd never seen that gun before. Ever,
Speaker 3: he bought that handgun had a gun show in Columbus
Speaker 3: a couple of years before the murders at the end
Speaker 3: of January, on the same day that George bought a
Speaker 3: different gun at the same gun show. They have the
Speaker 3: paperwork showing that they didn't buy their guns at the
Speaker 3: same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know,
Speaker 3: really know Jake was there. So if I'm a juror,
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean to sell out
Speaker 3: of the YouTube boys went up there separately to the
Speaker 3: same gun show and bought guns on the same day
Speaker 3: and didn't know each other was there while your father's there.
Speaker 3: It was a small but key moment. At the end
Speaker 3: of the day.
Speaker 4: During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders,
Speaker 4: George was recorded by BCI agent complaining that Jake could
Speaker 4: not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that
Speaker 4: Jake destroy evidence.
Speaker 1: And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about
Speaker 1: how his my whole life, I've been in trouble with
Speaker 1: you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes,
Speaker 1: And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get
Speaker 1: us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that
Speaker 1: gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you
Speaker 1: have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell
Speaker 1: on me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as we're children, that's what I'm referring to his eyes,
Speaker 2: when we're children.
Speaker 1: And you also tell him that he should have gotten
Speaker 1: rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,
Speaker 1: and again that's because we got a lot of evidence
Speaker 1: from those items.
Speaker 2: My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you
Speaker 2: guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to
Speaker 2: try and frame him.
Speaker 4: Let's stop here for another break. Nearing the end of
Speaker 4: her cross examination, Prosecutor Anjacineppa brought up George's long history
Speaker 4: of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one
Speaker 4: incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter.
Speaker 1: This is the call where you said she can't keep
Speaker 1: her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes,
Speaker 1: and George, she's four years old. Yes, you said she
Speaker 1: does anything deliberate you to try and crush him deliberately.
Speaker 1: Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece,
Speaker 1: your four year niece, as a bitch because she was.
Speaker 2: I'll explain this before five six days with no sleeping caffeine.
Speaker 2: You say stuff you don't really mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said a lot of things.
Speaker 2: Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my
Speaker 2: son that she had a new mom and he didn't.
Speaker 1: You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica
Speaker 1: a crazy whore.
Speaker 2: I don't remember that.
Speaker 1: You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy
Speaker 1: hor down.
Speaker 2: I don't remember that conversation, am I saying as possible? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean,
Speaker 2: but I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,
Speaker 2: massive amounts of caffeine.
Speaker 1: Sure, And I mean you called Randa, I think a
Speaker 1: lazy crackhore.
Speaker 2: I think I've called her that more than once, okay.
Speaker 1: And you told the agents at the border that you
Speaker 1: thought that Hannah turned into a.
Speaker 2: Whore from what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1: And that was after she had left Jake.
Speaker 2: Well everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To
Speaker 2: my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but
Speaker 2: that's what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1: And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times,
Speaker 1: and referred to Batman as a whore just like Tabby
Speaker 1: many times.
Speaker 4: Here again, Antinnette Levy, he's calling his niece.
Speaker 11: You know, I think he called his niece a bit.
Speaker 2: She called his.
Speaker 11: Sister in law horror, I mean, and he attributes that
Speaker 11: to you know, I drive on the road and I'm
Speaker 11: up a long time, and you know, drink caffeine, and
Speaker 11: I just think to myself, like I could see that.
Speaker 10: I mean, I mean, I've been wound.
Speaker 11: Up before and ranted and and said things and you know,
Speaker 11: you go.
Speaker 2: Off on a.
Speaker 11: Tirade, but at the same time, in one of my
Speaker 11: tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year
Speaker 11: old child like that.
Speaker 4: Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George
Speaker 4: Wagner pushed back against angiecin Eppu's questions. He insisted in
Speaker 4: one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that
Speaker 4: his mother and brother are lying, and.
Speaker 2: My mom and brother are lying to you.
Speaker 1: They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else is lying,
Speaker 1: like Tabitha is lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody to talk
Speaker 1: about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.
Speaker 2: I did not say Chelsea is lying. I said she's mistaken.
Speaker 1: Right, And even though you've not managed to tell us
Speaker 1: anything consistent with what you told the agents at the
Speaker 1: border in twenty seventeen, you're the one that's telling the truth.
Speaker 2: I don't remember exactly everything I said the border.
Speaker 1: That's not the question. The question is what you're saying
Speaker 1: does today is not consistent with what you've said at
Speaker 1: the border.
Speaker 2: Ye. I can't say if you guse or not because
Speaker 2: I don't remember everything I've said there.
Speaker 1: But everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2: I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
Speaker 2: that night. We're gonna mistake in one. They're confusing two
Speaker 2: different events into one.
Speaker 8: Angie Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes
Speaker 8: across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does
Speaker 8: it work again? He only needs to convince one juror
Speaker 8: that he is telling the truth and that Jake and
Speaker 8: his mom are lying. Caneppa is trying to rattle him,
Speaker 8: but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at
Speaker 8: the same time, Kinnepa makes the point for George to
Speaker 8: be telling the truth, a lot of other people need
Speaker 8: to be lying, which is a good point because Jake
Speaker 8: and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They
Speaker 8: have both been in separate jails this entire time with
Speaker 8: no communication, so the fact that their truth stories matchup
Speaker 8: is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps they're telling
Speaker 8: the truth, because George could be lying all by himself,
Speaker 8: but how could those who have the same story without
Speaker 8: communicating first.
Speaker 9: They may have practiced a script to some degree before
Speaker 9: they're arrests. They might have been planning for this moment
Speaker 9: all along.
Speaker 10: But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner
Speaker 10: are both.
Speaker 8: The state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with
Speaker 8: the prosecution and their team to figure out what.
Speaker 10: They're going to say on the stand. In conversation with Mike.
Speaker 8: Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses
Speaker 8: on what they're going to say, But we do know
Speaker 8: they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They
Speaker 8: spend hours talking over every single possible detail.
Speaker 4: Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.
Speaker 8: We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like
Speaker 8: the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I
Speaker 8: think it ultimately comes down to its what George said
Speaker 8: versus what Angela Jake said like that is what I
Speaker 8: think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it
Speaker 8: that same way or yeah?
Speaker 13: I mean it would come down to credibility from George
Speaker 13: and Angela, And I think the credibility goes with Angela
Speaker 13: because George any number of times just said I don't recall,
Speaker 13: I don't remember, I didn't count him up, but there
Speaker 13: are a lot of times that he said that and
Speaker 13: I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony
Speaker 13: for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So I
Speaker 13: think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's
Speaker 13: you know, it's George against those two, I think I
Speaker 13: think they win and George doesn't because a lot of
Speaker 13: things he didn't remember, and he contradicted himself on a
Speaker 13: number of occasions.
Speaker 8: And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela. They have
Speaker 8: not communicated, so it's not like their comparing notes. If
Speaker 8: their stories lineup, isn't that must be worth a lot
Speaker 8: more than George by himself.
Speaker 13: No question about it. Because they were kept separate. There's
Speaker 13: no way they could get together out in the hallway
Speaker 13: and they get their story straight. So yeah, that, I mean,
Speaker 13: that gives them I think, another reason why they have
Speaker 13: the greater credibility here.
Speaker 4: But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments.
Speaker 1: You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Schier. Correct.
Speaker 1: I said that, yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake
Speaker 1: did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember
Speaker 1: telling your brother that you should go to BCI and
Speaker 1: tell them that he'll he'll rat you guys out because
Speaker 1: he's the biggest rat there is.
Speaker 2: Yes, I remember that, okay.
Speaker 1: And do you remember also telling your mother, let me
Speaker 1: tell you something. I love you the only reason and
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this. Everything
Speaker 1: that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for
Speaker 1: with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got
Speaker 1: away with that craft was because every time somebody caved,
Speaker 1: everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do
Speaker 1: you remember saying that?
Speaker 2: Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly.
Speaker 1: The conversation, okay, And that was played in overcourt.
Speaker 2: Thanks, so ya, okay?
Speaker 1: And is that your philosophy? You don't gave and you
Speaker 1: don't crumble.
Speaker 2: Now, for what I believe you're trying to say it
Speaker 2: as wow, I.
Speaker 1: Don't specimically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble
Speaker 1: with law enforcements because somebody cracked.
Speaker 2: I don't believe you should plead out to something you
Speaker 2: didn't do.
Speaker 4: After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner,
Speaker 4: his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him
Speaker 4: several questions about the murders.
Speaker 7: George, just a few follow up questions, probably been along
Speaker 7: a couple of days before you, hasn't it appairly?
Speaker 5: George?
Speaker 7: Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen eleven No?
Speaker 5: Did you know he owned one?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 9: One.
Speaker 7: Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate
Speaker 7: in these murders in any way?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 5: Did you plan these murders?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Did you know they were going to have?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 7: Did you know after the murders that they in fact
Speaker 7: your family had been involved?
Speaker 2: No? Not until my rubbish proffert.
Speaker 7: And did you know did you ever go out to
Speaker 7: Left Fork Road where.
Speaker 5: Kid was killed?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 5: Has anybody paid you anything for your testing?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 5: Has anybody given you anything for your testimony?
Speaker 7: Now?
Speaker 5: Did the state off you a plea bargain for your testiment?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: Your life is on the line.
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 5: Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: As you answer to God?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: And if you yes, with one last chance to potentially
Speaker 4: trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what
Speaker 4: happens to him if he admits to killing the Rodents?
Speaker 1: What happens to you if you come in here and
Speaker 1: admit that you and your brother and your father went
Speaker 1: up to Union Hill Road that night and then out
Speaker 1: to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent
Speaker 1: people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them
Speaker 1: with babies in the bed with them that, from all testimony,
Speaker 1: were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if
Speaker 1: you come in here on that stand and.
Speaker 2: Admit to that, do you want to hear? Answer? Well,
Speaker 2: I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1: I want to know what happens to you if you
Speaker 1: come in hear and admit that.
Speaker 2: What should happen to anybody is they should have death
Speaker 2: given to them.
Speaker 1: And the biggest difference you agree between you and your
Speaker 1: brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells
Speaker 1: about it and you.
Speaker 2: Don't when we were children.
Speaker 5: Yes, question, you may step down now.
Speaker 12: Since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any
Speaker 12: of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who
Speaker 12: they believe him or Jakein and his mom Angela, who
Speaker 12: have already said under oath that George Wagner was part
Speaker 12: of the plot to kill multiple people.
Speaker 4: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 4: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kati
Speaker 4: Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Speaker 4: Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me
Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music
Speaker 4: by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maascer is a production
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