WEBVTT - George Wagner’s Final Day on the Stand

0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:03.400
<v Speaker 1>So she's lying.

0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:05.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying she's I'm saying she's.

0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Mistaken, but everybody else is lying.

0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about

0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that night.

0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.120
<v Speaker 3>Angela Caneppa. If you listen to it, she hammers and moment,

0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.239
<v Speaker 3>and I think if I'm saying, there's a your if

0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.599
<v Speaker 3>they paid as closest attention to this trial as I have,

0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:22.880
<v Speaker 3>that's a red flag.

0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.160
<v Speaker 1>What happens to you if you come in here and

0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.600
<v Speaker 1>admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered

0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.320
<v Speaker 1>perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds.

0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel it

0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:40.720
<v Speaker 2>should happen to anybody that would do that.

0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.800
<v Speaker 1>I want to know what happens to you if you

0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.440
<v Speaker 1>come in here and admit that.

0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.280
<v Speaker 2>What should happen to anybody is they should have death

0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:58.080
<v Speaker 2>given to them.

0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:03.600
<v Speaker 4>This is the pipeson Masaker returned to Pike County season four,

0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:09.560
<v Speaker 4>episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand.

0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.160
<v Speaker 4>I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with

0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.640
<v Speaker 4>Stephanie Leidacer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that

0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.800
<v Speaker 4>George Wagner Fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained

0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:27.400
<v Speaker 4>he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose

0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.959
<v Speaker 4>trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all

0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.479
<v Speaker 4>charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions

0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.680
<v Speaker 4>from his own lawyer the day before. George Wagner's surprising

0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:44.440
<v Speaker 4>testimony continues for a second day. Wagner continued defending himself,

0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.680
<v Speaker 4>denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took

0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.040
<v Speaker 4>no part in planning or covering up the brutal murders.

0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.280
<v Speaker 4>But on a second day of testimony, George Wagner faced

0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.920
<v Speaker 4>a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Auntiekneppa,

0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:05.600
<v Speaker 4>questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous

0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.520
<v Speaker 4>statements George Wagner gave to investigators.

0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.320
<v Speaker 5>George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.

0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:13.760
<v Speaker 6>He is on trial for murder in the Pie County

0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:15.840
<v Speaker 6>massacre that happened in twenty sixteen.

0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.239
<v Speaker 4>Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie,

0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.800
<v Speaker 4>and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the

0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.880
<v Speaker 4>stand on the forty third day of his trial, defense

0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.440
<v Speaker 4>attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner

0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:31.239
<v Speaker 4>about his use of Facebook.

0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.760
<v Speaker 5>Now, did you use Facebook.

0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:36.680
<v Speaker 2>On and off?

0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.320
<v Speaker 4>Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell

0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.680
<v Speaker 4>items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to

0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.320
<v Speaker 4>talk to friends, including Frankie Rodin.

0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.840
<v Speaker 7>With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your

0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:52.760
<v Speaker 7>mother to.

0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:53.000
<v Speaker 5>Use your account?

0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Not to my knowledge.

0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.800
<v Speaker 7>Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password?

0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Not to my knowledge?

0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:05.160
<v Speaker 4>However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access

0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:06.959
<v Speaker 4>the social media passwords.

0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:08.240
<v Speaker 5>Did you ever have.

0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:14.200
<v Speaker 7>An issue with your mother trying to access your fault her?

0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:14.880
<v Speaker 4>Not?

0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Really, I'm not gonna say accessing about constantly looking over

0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.760
<v Speaker 2>my shoulder trying to get the password to it. I

0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.200
<v Speaker 2>changed my password like daily because she would try and

0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.400
<v Speaker 2>figure out what my password was. How do you know

0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that she was always looking over my shoulder when I

0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:28.320
<v Speaker 2>put my password in?

0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:30.480
<v Speaker 5>Is that before the murders?

0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Far back as I've had an iPhone.

0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.640
<v Speaker 4>George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page

0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.680
<v Speaker 4>his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing

0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.200
<v Speaker 4>to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted

0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.800
<v Speaker 4>the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and now

0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.240
<v Speaker 4>I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the

0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.040
<v Speaker 4>Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't

0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.680
<v Speaker 4>know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped,

0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.600
<v Speaker 4>but he said he assumed they were during.

0:03:58.360 --> 0:03:59.120
<v Speaker 5>That time frame.

0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.800
<v Speaker 7>What was your mindset, so to speak about the investigation

0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.880
<v Speaker 7>and whether your family was guilty or not doing What

0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:08.720
<v Speaker 7>was your mindset?

0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:08.920
<v Speaker 5>Though?

0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.120
<v Speaker 2>I believed that they were just trying to frame my

0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.280
<v Speaker 2>mom and my brother and my family for the fact

0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.080
<v Speaker 2>that they didn't have anybody else to look at.

0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:18.280
<v Speaker 5>Why did you think that?

0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement

0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:22.640
<v Speaker 2>was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close

0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.

0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.920
<v Speaker 4>The fear of law enforcement also led George to think

0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:32.200
<v Speaker 4>his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.

0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.400
<v Speaker 2>From the way I understood it was that BCI would

0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.600
<v Speaker 2>stoop to any level to get information about my family,

0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and that they would try and send a woman in

0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.720
<v Speaker 2>there to get close to me or my brother and

0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:44.680
<v Speaker 2>get information.

0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.599
<v Speaker 7>Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on

0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.880
<v Speaker 7>the recordings between you and your brother about that.

0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and

0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.960
<v Speaker 2>married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust,

0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.080
<v Speaker 2>not with everything that our family was being accused of.

0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.800
<v Speaker 4>George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he

0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:08.800
<v Speaker 4>did not trust her.

0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Why not?

0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.279
<v Speaker 2>Multiple different reasons?

0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:13.640
<v Speaker 5>Take your time and.

0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.359
<v Speaker 2>Reason one. When she first broke up my brother and

0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.279
<v Speaker 2>then got back with him, I just thought it was

0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.720
<v Speaker 2>weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want

0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:26.560
<v Speaker 2>to be with somebody who was accused of what we

0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:27.680
<v Speaker 2>were being accused.

0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.559
<v Speaker 5>Of, all right? Were there other reason?

0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.400
<v Speaker 2>The second reason was she had come up with a

0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.600
<v Speaker 2>story about her childhood that she and her brothers and

0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.239
<v Speaker 2>her mother was part of some cult for some church

0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.000
<v Speaker 2>in Texas, and I had guessed the church ended up

0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.200
<v Speaker 2>selling kids the sex, slavery or something like that.

0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.080
<v Speaker 5>All right, Was there any other reason?

0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.080
<v Speaker 2>The other one was I came home from work one

0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.200
<v Speaker 2>week and my son said that Bessett told him that

0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.000
<v Speaker 2>you shoot bad people with AR fifteen's.

0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.360
<v Speaker 4>George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want

0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.520
<v Speaker 4>Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio, didn't.

0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Feel my son was safe around her.

0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:03.680
<v Speaker 5>Did you want to kill her?

0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:04.440
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:05.360
<v Speaker 5>What did you want?

0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted her to move out of the house.

0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.560
<v Speaker 4>Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was

0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.279
<v Speaker 4>a loving and caring uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George

0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.360
<v Speaker 4>about his nickname for his niece. George said that when

0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.040
<v Speaker 4>Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to

0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.440
<v Speaker 4>playfully call her SuDS.

0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.800
<v Speaker 2>She was playing one day in a bucket full of

0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.440
<v Speaker 2>water that she was sitting in and was fielful of soap, and.

0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.279
<v Speaker 5>So you gave her the nickname sugs.

0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.520
<v Speaker 4>After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to

0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:35.760
<v Speaker 4>Jake about his daughter.

0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.800
<v Speaker 5>During those conversations. Did you know that he had killed her?

0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:40.240
<v Speaker 1>Now?

0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.159
<v Speaker 5>What was his demeanor when you brought up sucks?

0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Depends on what I was going on, but usually it

0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.839
<v Speaker 2>turned into a fight in an argument about what. Anytime

0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I would save it made a face like Hannah, or

0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.400
<v Speaker 2>it looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he

0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:55.080
<v Speaker 2>would throw a fit.

0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.640
<v Speaker 5>You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you

0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.360
<v Speaker 5>love Yes? Did you kill these people for her?

0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Now?

0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:06.480
<v Speaker 5>Would you ever do.

0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:06.960
<v Speaker 2>That now.

0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.600
<v Speaker 4>Here's Jeff and Stephanie.

0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.200
<v Speaker 8>Do you think, Steph that this testimony humanizess George Wagner

0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:15.640
<v Speaker 8>in anyway.

0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.280
<v Speaker 9>I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both

0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.440
<v Speaker 9>things can be true. I think if we've learned anything

0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.239
<v Speaker 9>just in the process of making this podcast and following

0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.400
<v Speaker 9>it for as long as we have, it's just that

0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.520
<v Speaker 9>certain people can be a lot of things at the

0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.400
<v Speaker 9>same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this

0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.000
<v Speaker 9>does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other

0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.680
<v Speaker 9>he's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that,

0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.000
<v Speaker 9>according to this compassionate testimony he knew very well.

0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.280
<v Speaker 4>And both things may be true.

0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.600
<v Speaker 8>This is a good example of the defense adding a

0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.120
<v Speaker 8>rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.

0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.040
<v Speaker 8>It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points

0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.040
<v Speaker 8>about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd, and it

0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.040
<v Speaker 8>could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,

0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.880
<v Speaker 8>is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's

0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.040
<v Speaker 8>story because all they have to do is just turn

0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.360
<v Speaker 8>one juror in favor of George.

0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.920
<v Speaker 9>I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what

0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.360
<v Speaker 9>hot water he and his family were in at that time.

0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.400
<v Speaker 9>The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts.

0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.120
<v Speaker 9>On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to

0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.600
<v Speaker 9>marry Elizabeth before they returned to piked In.

0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:27.800
<v Speaker 4>And on the other.

0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.400
<v Speaker 9>Side of it, why would you add somebody else to

0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:35.880
<v Speaker 9>the equation that has to keep your story straight? And

0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:41.920
<v Speaker 9>if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or

0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.920
<v Speaker 9>is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide

0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:46.320
<v Speaker 9>his fate.

0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.120
<v Speaker 4>Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake

0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.000
<v Speaker 4>also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children.

0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.080
<v Speaker 4>Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner

0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:02.880
<v Speaker 4>the fourth.

0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.960
<v Speaker 7>Did you and your brother have the same ideas on

0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.840
<v Speaker 7>how to how to raise your respective children?

0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:13.880
<v Speaker 2>No, not by a long shot.

0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:15.600
<v Speaker 5>Can you explain.

0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.720
<v Speaker 2>My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the

0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:25.040
<v Speaker 2>house for her entire life until she graduated college.

0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.760
<v Speaker 5>What was your idea of how to raise it?

0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.079
<v Speaker 2>My idea of it was, I guess you could say

0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.720
<v Speaker 2>I spoiled him. I didn't ever tell him that whatever

0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.840
<v Speaker 2>he wanted, I got it for him, and I got

0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:39.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of hell over.

0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.440
<v Speaker 1>That, and my.

0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.719
<v Speaker 2>Main plan was that eventually when he was older, all

0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.120
<v Speaker 2>kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you

0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:50.920
<v Speaker 2>say or do, They're going to make their own mistakes.

0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.959
<v Speaker 2>I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're

0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.480
<v Speaker 2>going to do it anyway, whether you tell them not

0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:56.920
<v Speaker 2>to or whether you tell them to do what, they're

0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.400
<v Speaker 2>going to do it. So my way of fixing that

0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.400
<v Speaker 2>was I was just going to end up building like

0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.280
<v Speaker 2>a great big lake one day on whatever piece of

0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.440
<v Speaker 2>property I bought, and have his own cabin on it

0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.200
<v Speaker 2>from time he turned as teenager, so when he was

0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:11.960
<v Speaker 2>out drinking and party in which he's going to do

0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.199
<v Speaker 2>all kids do it, that he would be there and

0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't worry about he running up and down the

0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.680
<v Speaker 2>roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did.

0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.240
<v Speaker 5>Did you discuss this with your brother?

0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.439
<v Speaker 5>Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on? Yes?

0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:27.199
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.679
<v Speaker 5>Is that a source of disagreement between.

0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:30.679
<v Speaker 2>You and you as.

0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:32.760
<v Speaker 7>Well?

0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:33.840
<v Speaker 5>All over the objection?

0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it was a massive disagreement.

0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.760
<v Speaker 4>Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake

0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.200
<v Speaker 4>and George agreed on one thing that was at their

0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.800
<v Speaker 4>mother Angela Wagner should have custody of their kids should

0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:56.200
<v Speaker 4>anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the

0:10:56.200 --> 0:11:01.079
<v Speaker 4>backdated custody documents that Angela prepared, claims he did so

0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:02.200
<v Speaker 4>without looking at them.

0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I came home one day and I was going to

0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:07.800
<v Speaker 2>my room, change clothes and go back out the door,

0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and my mom said that she was filling one out

0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.200
<v Speaker 2>for my brother and asked if I wanted one that

0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.760
<v Speaker 2>was more legit than the handwritten when I had. And

0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.360
<v Speaker 2>I told her if she wanted that, she had like

0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:17.839
<v Speaker 2>ten minutes to get it, and I had to get

0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:19.600
<v Speaker 2>and I signed. My neighbor walked out.

0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.240
<v Speaker 5>Okay, so break that down a little bit, all right.

0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:23.280
<v Speaker 5>Do you remember when.

0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.280
<v Speaker 2>That was sometime early twenty sixteen?

0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:27.000
<v Speaker 7>All right?

0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.920
<v Speaker 5>And the document that you signed, had it been completed?

0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.400
<v Speaker 5>Was it blank? What did you know about?

0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:32.439
<v Speaker 7>It?

0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.640
<v Speaker 2>Was just like a printed out for him.

0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:35.720
<v Speaker 5>Did you read it? No?

0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:37.079
<v Speaker 2>I just signed my name to it.

0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:38.800
<v Speaker 5>And what'd you do after you sign your name?

0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:40.320
<v Speaker 2>I walked out the front door and left again.

0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.160
<v Speaker 5>And what was your understanding of this document she wanted

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.280
<v Speaker 5>to you de signed? You were coming at it out

0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:46.720
<v Speaker 5>and changing.

0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I just assumed she was making another one that was

0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.560
<v Speaker 2>more legitimate looking in my handwritten one.

0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:56.760
<v Speaker 4>Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.480
<v Speaker 8>So the defense has been trying to show George as

0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:05.000
<v Speaker 8>a Karen attentive, smart with it person and father. But

0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.880
<v Speaker 8>the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents

0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.079
<v Speaker 8>on a whim to me undercuts the.

0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 10>Caring and attentive father image.

0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.560
<v Speaker 8>It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care,

0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.080
<v Speaker 8>that he would just sign something without thinking about it

0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.800
<v Speaker 8>or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.319
<v Speaker 8>to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing

0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 8>undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.

0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.080
<v Speaker 9>Which is a completely fair point, I would say. In

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.960
<v Speaker 9>the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony

0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.680
<v Speaker 9>so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and

0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.400
<v Speaker 9>stand apart from his other family members. It also shows

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.160
<v Speaker 9>that he was pretty conditioned to do.

0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:45.319
<v Speaker 4>Whatever his mother said.

0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:47.800
<v Speaker 9>Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.280
<v Speaker 9>telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.200
<v Speaker 9>with his mother and that his family was always doing

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 9>some kind of a scam or a con and that

0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.000
<v Speaker 9>he just looked the other ways, or through his hands

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 9>up and didn't really think much of it.

0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:03.960
<v Speaker 10>Well, the defense can't have it both ways.

0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 8>They can't say on the one hand that he is

0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.400
<v Speaker 8>a carrying, attendive father who thinks everything through and it's

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 8>independent of his family, but then also just signs a

0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.079
<v Speaker 8>document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her.

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 8>Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:17.800
<v Speaker 8>see throw.

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.120
<v Speaker 4>Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to

0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:25.200
<v Speaker 4>distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to

0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.360
<v Speaker 4>chopping up cars for insurance money.

0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.840
<v Speaker 5>Did you ever make money other than driving.

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>Trucks multiple different ways?

0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 10>Did you ever cut up trucks?

0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:37.520
<v Speaker 5>Yes, explain it.

0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 2>My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.360
<v Speaker 2>that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a Diesel

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Shavy or whatever contruck really, but they would owe on

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the truck and they would want out from under it.

0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>So I'd give him five hundred to one thousand dollars

0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.719
<v Speaker 2>and they'd give me the truck and give me a

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.320
<v Speaker 2>week to chop with up and sell it. And then

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.559
<v Speaker 2>they reported stole and turned in on the insurance company.

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 5>And so explain how that works as far as chopping up,

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:07.400
<v Speaker 5>and so you.

0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you

0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 2>sell it's part different parts of different people.

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.160
<v Speaker 5>And you did that when you lived on Peterson. Yes,

0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.080
<v Speaker 5>do you know approximately how many trucks believe?

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:24.680
<v Speaker 4>Five Later defense tourney John Parker pivoted to address the

0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:30.920
<v Speaker 4>damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's

0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 4>descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments.

0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 7>Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 7>you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother

0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 7>and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do

0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 7>you remember any of that?

0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 5>What do you remember?

0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>The conversations I believe you're talking about is that if

0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 2>all of us were arrested, that my mother should get

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>the best one.

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 5>And did you say that?

0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:58.640
<v Speaker 5>Why did you say that?

0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 2>days a week while we were gone. Anyway, they were

0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.040
<v Speaker 2>used to being with her for five days a week,

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and I feared it would be easier on my children.

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.600
<v Speaker 5>What were you thinking, you said?

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 2>I was just going under what basically I understood from

0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.960
<v Speaker 2>the attorneys that if we got arrested, that it could

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.680
<v Speaker 2>take six months, it could take two years to get

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.479
<v Speaker 2>to a trial and be able to work things out.

0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 7>Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened

0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.040
<v Speaker 7>to your mother saying something about being framed?

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 5>Yes, what do you recall?

0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.120
<v Speaker 2>My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>That's why I believe that we were being framed, because

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 2>they said that they were twisting everything that my mom

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.760
<v Speaker 2>and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they

0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.160
<v Speaker 2>were trying to frame us.

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.200
<v Speaker 7>And was that your mindset during these conversations. Yes, after

0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 7>listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.880
<v Speaker 7>do you feel about what Jake was saying and what.

0:15:58.800 --> 0:15:59.720
<v Speaker 5>You now know he did?

0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I now know that he was just flying through his

0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>teeth to me. What about your mother the same thanks,

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>she's just lying to me from the beginning.

0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.920
<v Speaker 7>Did you ever tell your mother referencing these reportings, did

0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 7>you ever tell your mother you would take the blame

0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:15.680
<v Speaker 7>for these murders?

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I did not.

0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.280
<v Speaker 9>So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother.

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.000
<v Speaker 4>We know this.

0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 9>He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 9>was being raised frankly by career criminals and in his opinion,

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 9>his brother was very selfish and manipulative, and at this point,

0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.000
<v Speaker 9>whether this is before the murders or even after the murders,

0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.600
<v Speaker 9>George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 8>George likes to claim that he knew the whole time

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.240
<v Speaker 8>his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 8>according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 8>to believe their story about what happened in and around

0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.440
<v Speaker 8>the Roaded massacre. It just doesn't line up about the

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 8>explanation George gave earlier. He knows their liars, yet accept

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.440
<v Speaker 8>their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of

0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.600
<v Speaker 8>things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely

0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 8>going to bring up a cross because they want to

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.719
<v Speaker 8>really highlight them for the jury.

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.800
<v Speaker 4>Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 4>potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator

0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.520
<v Speaker 4>Ryan Schiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat,

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 4>but a comment made out of frustration and anger.

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:33.040
<v Speaker 7>One of the conversations we listened to in both your

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 7>brother and your mother, and you were kind of in

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.879
<v Speaker 7>the background, your mother said something about their framing us.

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.639
<v Speaker 5>You remember that, yeah, and that she would take the

0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.400
<v Speaker 5>death company. Yes, you remember that at that time.

0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 7>Did you know your mom and brother were involved in

0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 7>these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it

0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.120
<v Speaker 7>was In that same conversation, Jake says he will get

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:56.200
<v Speaker 7>out one way or another.

0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:56.879
<v Speaker 5>Do you remember that.

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.359
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, at that time did you know he had killed

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:00.879
<v Speaker 7>these people?

0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 2>I was on the assumption that he was referring to

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 2>if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted.

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 7>And then your voice is in the background and you say,

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:15.840
<v Speaker 7>ain't gonna have the electric.

0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:16.919
<v Speaker 5>Chair or words to that.

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes you remember that.

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.600
<v Speaker 5>Yes, what did you mean by that?

0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 2>I just get irritated when people were messing with my

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.000
<v Speaker 2>family and stuff, especially when I've been out for five

0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 2>days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine,

0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>and it makes you irritable.

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:38.920
<v Speaker 7>Did you know at that point that your mom and

0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 7>brother were actually guilty of anything?

0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:40.960
<v Speaker 11>No?

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.840
<v Speaker 5>Are you guilty of any of these events?

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:44.120
<v Speaker 12>No?

0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.639
<v Speaker 7>On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your voice say.

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:49.960
<v Speaker 1>I want to kill Ryan.

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I said that.

0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.920
<v Speaker 5>What did What did you mean by that explain context.

0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.399
<v Speaker 2>It was more blind, like when you're angry at somebody

0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 2>you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean that you

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 2>mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:02.600
<v Speaker 2>one point or another.

0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.240
<v Speaker 7>There was another comment you made to your brother during

0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.240
<v Speaker 7>one of these full calls about you telling people the

0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 7>truth is the reason we're in this mass. You remember that, yes,

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:14.119
<v Speaker 7>can you explain it?

0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.000
<v Speaker 2>In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.840
<v Speaker 2>at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies,

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.159
<v Speaker 2>which he does to almost everybody he's around.

0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 4>We're going to take a break. We'll be back in

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:38.800
<v Speaker 4>a moment. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.560
<v Speaker 4>of George Wagner by again asking him if he had

0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.400
<v Speaker 4>any involvement in the murders.

0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.959
<v Speaker 5>Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No?

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 5>Before it happened to Joe. No, after it happened to

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:52.639
<v Speaker 5>je No.

0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 7>Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about No.

0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.600
<v Speaker 5>Did you ever talk to your mom about it?

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:00.080
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.760
<v Speaker 5>You're dead now. If you had known this was going

0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 5>to happen, what would you do?

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped it.

0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:09.159
<v Speaker 2>One way or another.

0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:10.720
<v Speaker 5>Did you love him?

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:11.320
<v Speaker 9>Yes?

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:13.840
<v Speaker 5>Did you consider frank you a good friend?

0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:15.240
<v Speaker 2>I consented me my best friend.

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 7>Looking at Wagner Zhibit fifty three, Dash Law, this is

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:20.960
<v Speaker 7>your wedding photo right.

0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you have one arm around, who Tabby?

0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:25.400
<v Speaker 5>You have another arm around?

0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Who haves Frankie?

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.400
<v Speaker 4>Here again? Jeff and Stephanie.

0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:34.840
<v Speaker 8>We knew when we saw the photo from George and

0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 8>Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was

0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 8>influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.440
<v Speaker 8>to be true. This was a big moment where both

0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.360
<v Speaker 8>of the families got together and it highlights their relationships.

0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.040
<v Speaker 9>We'll share it on our social media, but it's a

0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 9>pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of

0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 9>how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is

0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.360
<v Speaker 9>either dead or accused of their murder.

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.119
<v Speaker 5>The statement cross exam.

0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 4>Here's Law on Crime's investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy.

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 11>I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed

0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.639
<v Speaker 11>watching him on direct because I felt that he just

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:20.000
<v Speaker 11>seemed calm, and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just

0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 11>seemed to have answers for everything, and that kind of

0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:26.439
<v Speaker 11>made me wonder a little bit, because you can't have

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.159
<v Speaker 11>you can't always have answers for everything. But he seemed

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.080
<v Speaker 11>to have an answer for everything. Obviously, he's been prepped,

0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.720
<v Speaker 11>he's had years to think about this. But at the

0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 11>same time, he seemed to be doing a good job

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 11>on the stand during direct.

0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.119
<v Speaker 5>The prosecution focus did on George Wagen to the force

0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.200
<v Speaker 5>honesty today on the witness stand.

0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 4>After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner

0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:56.119
<v Speaker 4>came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 4>and Jacineppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.639
<v Speaker 4>and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship.

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him

0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:11.280
<v Speaker 1>your best friend? Yes, so in twenty twelve, you have

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:13.639
<v Speaker 1>your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at

0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:19.520
<v Speaker 1>your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had

0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 1>you ever.

0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December.

0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:34.479
<v Speaker 1>Late December of twenty fifteen. Yes, okay, And isn't it

0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 1>true that you told us that you didn't even know

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Hazel.

0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>I have met her one time in my life.

0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.359
<v Speaker 1>But at the Border, when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,

0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 1>you said you had never met her, that the last

0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:50.960
<v Speaker 1>person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.399
<v Speaker 1>named Angel, and that was before you got married in

0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty twelve.

0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Angel was before Chelsea.

0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.840
<v Speaker 1>You indicated at the border that the last person you

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.520
<v Speaker 1>knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel,

0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:06.680
<v Speaker 1>and that was when you still had your pulling chuck,

0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:08.320
<v Speaker 1>which was before you got married.

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but not

0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:12.120
<v Speaker 2>that I remember.

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 4>Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.800
<v Speaker 4>Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He

0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:21.480
<v Speaker 4>explained that he didn't have as much time for friends

0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:25.000
<v Speaker 4>when he began long haul driving, also after his own

0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:30.040
<v Speaker 4>son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory.

0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:34.520
<v Speaker 1>So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant

0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.680
<v Speaker 1>for nine months and Ruger was six months at the

0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.600
<v Speaker 1>time of burse that's at least fifteen months where you

0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.679
<v Speaker 1>didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her, never met her.

0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.160
<v Speaker 1>But Frankie was your best friend.

0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, who I considered my best friend who you block

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.680
<v Speaker 2>on Facebook, who I did not walk on Facebook.

0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, he was blocked on your Facebook.

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.840
<v Speaker 2>It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay.

0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either.

0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:02.720
<v Speaker 5>Did you?

0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Not very many that I remember.

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 1>As in zero, not that I remember, okay.

0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.320
<v Speaker 4>And you can have a question George's relationship with the

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:16.840
<v Speaker 4>mother of Frankie, Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier

0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.919
<v Speaker 4>in the child She alleged that there was bad blood

0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:21.360
<v Speaker 4>between George and Frankie.

0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:29.000
<v Speaker 1>You remember Chelsea testifying, Yes, okay. Is it true that

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:30.359
<v Speaker 1>you reached out to her at.

0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Some point, at one point in time by me and

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Chelsea started talking, yes, okay.

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:37.720
<v Speaker 1>And Frankie found out about.

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:40.919
<v Speaker 2>That, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, Yes

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to I explained that he was nothing more than friends.

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:47.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that

0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.520
<v Speaker 1>put a you guys held a grudge against each other

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:51.960
<v Speaker 1>after that, and no, your.

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.879
<v Speaker 2>Friendship, we did not grudge against each other after that.

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:57.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So she's lying.

0:24:57.560 --> 0:24:59.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying she's lying, saying she's mistaken.

0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know

0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:04.160
<v Speaker 1>his name.

0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:04.639
<v Speaker 5>No.

0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 1>You also indicated that Frankie was a fighter, yes, that

0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:15.439
<v Speaker 1>you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes, And that you

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.200
<v Speaker 1>would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone

0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:21.000
<v Speaker 1>in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what

0:25:21.040 --> 0:25:21.440
<v Speaker 1>you said.

0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, I don't see Frankie let anybody mess.

0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:27.919
<v Speaker 1>With his family, yeah, or Kenneth right.

0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't see anybody in their family, let anybody mess

0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:30.919
<v Speaker 2>with their family.

0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.479
<v Speaker 4>And Jakanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated

0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 4>his own family and wanted to escape them. She does

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:42.840
<v Speaker 4>this by referencing a conversation Jeorge had in twenty eighteen

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:45.400
<v Speaker 4>with his new girlfriend Josie.

0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 1>And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:53.919
<v Speaker 1>yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you

0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:58.040
<v Speaker 1>hardly even liked him at which point in time, any

0:25:58.040 --> 0:25:59.000
<v Speaker 1>point in time.

0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:02.480
<v Speaker 2>From early time, childhood, it wasn't that bad with him.

0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:04.520
<v Speaker 2>We were just little kids, but the older we got

0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the worst. He died, okay, and at the last point

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.240
<v Speaker 2>I might get ten good days out of one hundred

0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:11.440
<v Speaker 2>with him, maybe.

0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty

0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 1>eighteen right to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really

0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:23.919
<v Speaker 1>close with my family, you're kind of warning her or

0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 1>making sure that she's okay with that, because you were

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:27.720
<v Speaker 1>contemplating having her come live with you.

0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, not at the house house staying in though, Say

0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>it again, not that the house I was staying in.

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:35.639
<v Speaker 1>Though, But you wanted her to come live with you.

0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I want her to move down here eventually, because that's

0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:39.840
<v Speaker 2>what she was talking about. But I wasn't going to

0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:41.120
<v Speaker 2>let her move in the house with my mother.

0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:50.800
<v Speaker 1>So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:53.439
<v Speaker 1>to your mother on the phone, when you said that

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.560
<v Speaker 1>you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where

0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.119
<v Speaker 1>I can still make a living and where me and

0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and

0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.240
<v Speaker 1>whoever else we decide to bring so we can have

0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:08.639
<v Speaker 1>a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and

0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 1>the drama from everyone.

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:11.359
<v Speaker 2>Am I allowed to explain this?

0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Did you say that?

0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:16.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes? I said that? Okay, Am I allowed to go

0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:19.639
<v Speaker 2>into details this? Sure, it doesn't mean live in the

0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.840
<v Speaker 2>same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he

0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:25.040
<v Speaker 2>has a house on one corner. She has a house

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 2>on one corner, and I've got a house on corner.

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, kind of like what you guys were considering doing

0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 1>when you moved to Missouri. Right.

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.320
<v Speaker 4>In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 4>prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents

0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 4>at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him

0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:47.399
<v Speaker 4>on the discrepancy between what he said then and what

0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 4>he was saying now on the witness stand.

0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:54.920
<v Speaker 1>I know you talked about your mother and you said, well.

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:58.360
<v Speaker 2>You describe her to me, she is thanks you better

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:02.520
<v Speaker 2>than everybody. Thanks. Everything has to be done her way.

0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 2>I would probably say that I could put selfish in

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>that manipulative.

0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:11.119
<v Speaker 1>And again, I mean, this is new and different than

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:12.639
<v Speaker 1>what you told us at the border.

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:13.040
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:15.760
<v Speaker 1>That's not what you said about your mother at the border.

0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:16.000
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:17.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember what I said at the border.

0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling.

0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:24.959
<v Speaker 1>I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:28.040
<v Speaker 1>even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:31.160
<v Speaker 1>is not controlling. You were asked your mom's not controlling,

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.600
<v Speaker 1>you said no at all. Do you remember saying that.

0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:35.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember saying that.

0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, is that true.

0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:39.920
<v Speaker 2>That she's not controlling?

0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:41.160
<v Speaker 1>Correct?

0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>that I can remember, but she got worse as the

0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:47.880
<v Speaker 2>years went by.

0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that

0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:53.920
<v Speaker 1>question and you said she's not controlling.

0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:57.640
<v Speaker 2>She tried to do or not as far as actually

0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:00.960
<v Speaker 2>controlling me, No, she didn't, okay, but she tried to

0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:03.440
<v Speaker 2>control me. If that answers your question.

0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,

0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 1>considering you said one thing at the border, and you

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:12.040
<v Speaker 1>said an entirely different thing yesterday and today.

0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 4>So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish,

0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 4>George tried to explain why he was willing to sign

0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:23.600
<v Speaker 4>away custody of a son.

0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:27.880
<v Speaker 1>You talked about these custody documents that you and your

0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:34.360
<v Speaker 1>brother signed, and your mother forged the signature for panah

0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 1>On correct, all in the same magical day.

0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:37.680
<v Speaker 5>Correct y.

0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 1>You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:42.000
<v Speaker 1>kitchen table in your house.

0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:43.240
<v Speaker 2>It was in the kitchen.

0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:46.520
<v Speaker 1>In the kitchen, okay, So you agree with that.

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:48.600
<v Speaker 2>I agree. I signed my name to mine in the

0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:49.440
<v Speaker 2>kitchen and left.

0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, And you indicated you just sign that. Yes, so

0:29:56.800 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 1>you trust your mother.

0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:02.640
<v Speaker 2>I trust my mother seventy five eight percent. There's some

0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:03.880
<v Speaker 2>parts of her I don't trust.

0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But you signed this document saying if you were

0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:11.400
<v Speaker 1>to be killed or something happened to you, she would

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 1>get your child.

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 2>Who else would I leave him to? I have no

0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 2>one else to leave him to.

0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:23.240
<v Speaker 1>when you signed those documents.

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what date was on it. I signed

0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:26.080
<v Speaker 2>it early sixteen.

0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:29.840
<v Speaker 1>You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.

0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:30.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the exact date.

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty sixteen,

0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 1>because that was when it was printed.

0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 5>Off the computer.

0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Could be I don't know the exact date, but it

0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.320
<v Speaker 2>was sixteen. I didn't pay much attention to another seeing

0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:43.520
<v Speaker 2>it had my signature.

0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:47.440
<v Speaker 4>And Jacineppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that

0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 4>he signed. She once again pressed George and why he

0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:52.520
<v Speaker 4>signed them without paying attention.

0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 2>You could look at that and it's the document that signed,

0:30:57.960 --> 0:30:58.480
<v Speaker 2>So that is.

0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Your signature, yeah, okay. And you see the date at

0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:09.120
<v Speaker 1>the bottom there, yes, okay. And it's that consistent with

0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:12.640
<v Speaker 1>your experience. As far as your computer spitting out the

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:14.240
<v Speaker 1>date something is printed.

0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Off the computer, I couldn't tell you, and I don't

0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:17.240
<v Speaker 2>use computers that much.

0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:22.400
<v Speaker 1>But this is dated March eleventh or twenty fifteen. Yes,

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 1>and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh or

0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 1>two fifteen.

0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:27.480
<v Speaker 2>No, I signed it the day it was printed off.

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:35.040
<v Speaker 1>So I mean you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right, yes, okay.

0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:37.760
<v Speaker 1>And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document.

0:31:38.400 --> 0:31:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I can see that, Okay. I just don't see

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:42.960
<v Speaker 2>how me signing my name is forgery.

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, it was backdated.

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:48.080
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,

0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:49.680
<v Speaker 2>from what I can remember, when I signed.

0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 1>My name, she just signed your name to a completely blank.

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.320
<v Speaker 2>Document, to a custody document. She said, sign my name.

0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 2>I signed it, walked out.

0:31:56.840 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 1>But you wanted to leave your child with your mother.

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 2>If something was ever that happened to me? Yes, I had.

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:06.040
<v Speaker 2>There was no one else to leave it to him again.

0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:10.160
<v Speaker 1>You had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting

0:32:10.360 --> 0:32:13.040
<v Speaker 1>that was going to be taken because.

0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>It's something to do with law enforcement, and I was

0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.000
<v Speaker 2>raised at law enforcements. Crooking tries to twist everything.

0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes.

0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 2>I was not that it was right, but that's how

0:32:23.600 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I was raised. It took me a long time to

0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 2>realize that it was wrong.

0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>And that no matter when did you realize that?

0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:33.040
<v Speaker 2>When I realized that my dad was wrong and it

0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:34.560
<v Speaker 2>was actually hurting people.

0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:39.080
<v Speaker 1>So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,

0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the stealing of stuff out of the traitors, Yes, but

0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:44.160
<v Speaker 1>you didn't swear off a life of crime just that

0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 1>particular when you realize there actually were victims.

0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Indeed, I went with the stealing fuel and loads. I

0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:55.440
<v Speaker 2>quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I

0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being

0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:03.959
<v Speaker 2>considered illegal, was the Duramax being. Rick asked after that

0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>it was just dear honey.

0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:09.320
<v Speaker 4>Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his

0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:13.080
<v Speaker 4>life of crime behind him, Angie Caineppa questioned George Wagner

0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 4>about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including

0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:19.640
<v Speaker 4>using a fake address to get his trucking license.

0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:21.120
<v Speaker 2>You that.

0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:25.000
<v Speaker 1>So it's an application for a driver's license, correct?

0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Okay?

0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:29.240
<v Speaker 1>And what address did you put down there?

0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:29.640
<v Speaker 2>Ok?

0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay? That is not where you were living.

0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:35.080
<v Speaker 2>No, it's my grandmother's form, I remember. Correct, it has

0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:37.360
<v Speaker 2>something to do with l right, now, that's why used

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:37.960
<v Speaker 2>that address.

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're providing false information to a state agency. Correct.

0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:48.160
<v Speaker 4>Prosecutor Angie Caineppa then showed George Wagner a series of

0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 4>gun receipts and purchase forms.

0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 1>So you know that you have to put accurate information

0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 1>on those forms, correct, Yes, it's a federal offense not

0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:03.000
<v Speaker 1>to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, okay, So if

0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 1>you could go ahead and look at it and tell

0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:06.040
<v Speaker 1>us what address you put down there?

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:07.600
<v Speaker 2>It's eight or five Vessel Hill.

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>Rid Okay, but that's not relived.

0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Not the time my license had expired, and when I

0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:15.960
<v Speaker 2>bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:19.120
<v Speaker 2>was on the driver's license. I had then taking time

0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to change it.

0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Actually, that's not permitted.

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:24.799
<v Speaker 2>That's what that was advised five other people I bought

0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:27.000
<v Speaker 2>them from. They said to put the addresses on my license.

0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.680
<v Speaker 1>You understand that making any false, oral or written statement,

0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:34.040
<v Speaker 1>or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to

0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:37.319
<v Speaker 1>this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony. Yes,

0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:41.920
<v Speaker 1>under federal law. Yes, but at least three, at least

0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:46.280
<v Speaker 1>these three forms, you did not provide accurate information correct.

0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.279
<v Speaker 2>As far as the driver's license address up.

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:57.320
<v Speaker 4>After George Wagner admitted lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa

0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:01.400
<v Speaker 4>move to point out other key discrepancies and George Wagner's testimony,

0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:04.880
<v Speaker 4>particularly around when he went to bed the night of

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 4>the murderers.

0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:09.600
<v Speaker 6>Prosecutors saying twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:11.560
<v Speaker 6>to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of

0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.560
<v Speaker 6>the murders after watching a movie with his family. However,

0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:20.239
<v Speaker 6>in his testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm.

0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:23.799
<v Speaker 1>You said that the night of the homicides you went

0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:24.840
<v Speaker 1>to bed at ten o'clock.

0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Can issue if I remember correctly, It's been.

0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:30.960
<v Speaker 1>A long time, okay, all right, and so do you

0:35:31.960 --> 0:35:35.920
<v Speaker 1>recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.000
<v Speaker 1>the four of you, well, the six of you. Actually,

0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:44.920
<v Speaker 1>your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself were watching a

0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:47.960
<v Speaker 1>movie and you were up until you didn't go to

0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:49.000
<v Speaker 1>bed till twelve thirty.

0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.400
<v Speaker 2>Don't remember what kime was. Okay.

0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember telling the border at the border, the

0:35:55.920 --> 0:35:58.799
<v Speaker 1>agents when they asked you about what you did that night,

0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:01.840
<v Speaker 1>you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:04.640
<v Speaker 1>and how delicious they were, and she makes the best

0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.279
<v Speaker 1>and maybe one day she could make them for them.

0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say.

0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 2>I just said I don't remember.

0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:11.840
<v Speaker 13>Okay.

0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:15.680
<v Speaker 1>You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember

0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:17.960
<v Speaker 1>what a movie that wanted to watch.

0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I just I remember watching a movie of the kids

0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:22.520
<v Speaker 2>at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's

0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:23.360
<v Speaker 2>been a long time.

0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.799
<v Speaker 1>And you indicated that that is when your son would

0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:28.280
<v Speaker 1>usually go to sleep as well.

0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:32.600
<v Speaker 2>My son usually went to sleep ten or eleven usually. Okay,

0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:33.760
<v Speaker 2>there is what I can remember.

0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:35.959
<v Speaker 1>Is there a reason that you would lie to the

0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:36.920
<v Speaker 1>people at the border.

0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:39.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember

0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 2>what time to like told them that, Okay, I mean

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 2>it may have been I just from my remembory. Now,

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:46.759
<v Speaker 2>I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be

0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:48.560
<v Speaker 2>wrong about that, that's what I remember.

0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't

0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:00.440
<v Speaker 1>know that. You don't know that up. No.

0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:08.080
<v Speaker 4>Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However,

0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.880
<v Speaker 4>Jake said that George did not fire any shots.

0:37:12.400 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 1>You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris

0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:18.600
<v Speaker 1>call his phone and you saw the phone calls.

0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when

0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>Chris had.

0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:26.839
<v Speaker 1>Died, right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said.

0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:29.879
<v Speaker 2>I know my brother's time is off on everything that's

0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:30.640
<v Speaker 2>been showed in here.

0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:35.360
<v Speaker 1>So now we know, at least according to Jake, that

0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock.

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 1>I think that's what he said, which makes your story

0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 1>at the border impossible.

0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said to

0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:49.120
<v Speaker 2>the border.

0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell

0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:52.719
<v Speaker 1>the truth when you were interviewed.

0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:56.320
<v Speaker 2>At the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered.

0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said,

0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:03.279
<v Speaker 1>as much as do you agree that it would be

0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:05.239
<v Speaker 1>more accurate back then.

0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know.

0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you agree that you were trying to be honest

0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:14.839
<v Speaker 1>with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to lie to them.

0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I agree on that you certainly weren't trying.

0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:19.720
<v Speaker 1>To provide a cover story for you and your brother

0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:23.840
<v Speaker 1>and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole

0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 1>idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say

0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:30.440
<v Speaker 1>that we were all together a family night movie night watching,

0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:36.040
<v Speaker 1>watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up

0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:39.600
<v Speaker 1>when you told no the people at the border. It

0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 1>just happened to be the same story that you guys

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:44.640
<v Speaker 1>had agreed in advance to tell.

0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:47.319
<v Speaker 2>There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down,

0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:48.480
<v Speaker 2>my kid didn't want him to leave.

0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 1>So your story today or yesterday is that you actually

0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:55.680
<v Speaker 1>went to that at ten.

0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.239
<v Speaker 2>From what I remember at this point in time, I

0:38:58.320 --> 0:38:59.280
<v Speaker 2>believe it was tannish.

0:38:59.640 --> 0:39:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how could Jake and your father have been

0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 1>up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Geary less

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.520
<v Speaker 1>than an hour after you went into your bedroom.

0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I can't answer that. I don't know.

0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:21.520
<v Speaker 4>Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at

0:39:21.560 --> 0:39:22.240
<v Speaker 4>Local twelve.

0:39:22.719 --> 0:39:25.520
<v Speaker 3>When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at

0:39:25.520 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 3>ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Kaneppa and Andy

0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:31.560
<v Speaker 3>Wilson looked at each other almost like pointed at each

0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:36.880
<v Speaker 3>other like, haha, we have not heard what George had

0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:40.960
<v Speaker 3>to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at

0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:44.600
<v Speaker 3>the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in

0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:48.040
<v Speaker 3>May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot

0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:49.880
<v Speaker 3>of that. They have not played any of that. They

0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:52.360
<v Speaker 3>played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not

0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:56.279
<v Speaker 3>played any of George's. And I think there was a

0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.719
<v Speaker 3>strategic reason behind that, because they might have expected that

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.200
<v Speaker 3>George was going to testify for himself and they did

0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:05.319
<v Speaker 3>not want him to hear what he had to say

0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:07.080
<v Speaker 3>back then, so he could they can catch him in

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:12.960
<v Speaker 3>a contradiction, and they did and it was a big one.

0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:16.560
<v Speaker 3>So they spent a lot of time and they hammered

0:40:16.640 --> 0:40:19.320
<v Speaker 3>him on Angela Caneppa, if you listen to it, he

0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:22.279
<v Speaker 3>hammers a moment and I think if I'm saying there's

0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:25.239
<v Speaker 3>a juror, if they paid his closest attention to this

0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:28.960
<v Speaker 3>trial as I have, that's that's a red flag.

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:32.800
<v Speaker 4>The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags

0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:36.399
<v Speaker 4>as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.240
<v Speaker 4>a Walther Colt twenty two pistol.

0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two?

0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:44.000
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:46.319
<v Speaker 1>Has your brother ever owned one?

0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Too? More knowledge? No?

0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:50.759
<v Speaker 1>So his testimony he had this for more than a year.

0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:53.399
<v Speaker 1>You were unaware of that.

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:55.640
<v Speaker 2>If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it.

0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:58.319
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that

0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:00.560
<v Speaker 1>weapon in two thousand fifteen.

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Now I see what the pictures his the back then.

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:04.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't think.

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:07.360
<v Speaker 1>That he hid it from you. What is it he

0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:08.040
<v Speaker 1>hit it from you?

0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:10.040
<v Speaker 2>If he's had it that long, he must have.

0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:13.640
<v Speaker 1>Why she's got a curiosity. Why would you do that?

0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Because you guys keep those your guns in your safe right.

0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:20.359
<v Speaker 2>According to my brother's statement, he said that he'd owned

0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 2>every one of them guns on that list, and I've

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:25.160
<v Speaker 2>not seen over half of what's under his name.

0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:28.640
<v Speaker 1>You feel to answer the question, you guys, keep your

0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:29.040
<v Speaker 1>guns in.

0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:30.799
<v Speaker 2>Your safe, correct most of them.

0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:32.839
<v Speaker 1>So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of.

0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of young.

0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Over a year. He owned a gun and you were

0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:39.120
<v Speaker 1>oblivious to it.

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:40.440
<v Speaker 2>It's very well possible.

0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:46.840
<v Speaker 4>Here again journalist James Pilcher.

0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:51.600
<v Speaker 3>George has said he never saw and has never seen

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:57.400
<v Speaker 3>the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was

0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 3>used in the murders, even though agen Scheider texted them

0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:04.120
<v Speaker 3>a picture of Jake holding it that they got off

0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:07.520
<v Speaker 3>at Jake's phone, so they'd never seen that gun before. Ever,

0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:12.280
<v Speaker 3>he bought that handgun had a gun show in Columbus

0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:14.879
<v Speaker 3>a couple of years before the murders at the end

0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:21.279
<v Speaker 3>of January, on the same day that George bought a

0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:24.080
<v Speaker 3>different gun at the same gun show. They have the

0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:27.600
<v Speaker 3>paperwork showing that they didn't buy their guns at the

0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:31.560
<v Speaker 3>same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know,

0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.360
<v Speaker 3>really know Jake was there. So if I'm a juror,

0:42:34.360 --> 0:42:36.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean to sell out

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:40.080
<v Speaker 3>of the YouTube boys went up there separately to the

0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:43.080
<v Speaker 3>same gun show and bought guns on the same day

0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:46.479
<v Speaker 3>and didn't know each other was there while your father's there.

0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 3>It was a small but key moment. At the end

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:50.600
<v Speaker 3>of the day.

0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:57.560
<v Speaker 4>During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders,

0:42:57.760 --> 0:43:01.480
<v Speaker 4>George was recorded by BCI agent complaining that Jake could

0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:04.880
<v Speaker 4>not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that

0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:06.160
<v Speaker 4>Jake destroy evidence.

0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about

0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:14.880
<v Speaker 1>how his my whole life, I've been in trouble with

0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:18.920
<v Speaker 1>you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes,

0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:23.239
<v Speaker 1>And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get

0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:28.160
<v Speaker 1>us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that

0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:32.520
<v Speaker 1>gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you

0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:34.839
<v Speaker 1>have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell

0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:35.080
<v Speaker 1>on me.

0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as we're children, that's what I'm referring to his eyes,

0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:40.240
<v Speaker 2>when we're children.

0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:44.080
<v Speaker 1>And you also tell him that he should have gotten

0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:47.680
<v Speaker 1>rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,

0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:53.840
<v Speaker 1>and again that's because we got a lot of evidence

0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:54.720
<v Speaker 1>from those items.

0:43:55.040 --> 0:43:59.680
<v Speaker 2>My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you

0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:01.960
<v Speaker 2>guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to

0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 2>try and frame him.

0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:17.759
<v Speaker 4>Let's stop here for another break. Nearing the end of

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:22.320
<v Speaker 4>her cross examination, Prosecutor Anjacineppa brought up George's long history

0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:27.239
<v Speaker 4>of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one

0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:30.480
<v Speaker 4>incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter.

0:44:31.800 --> 0:44:36.640
<v Speaker 1>This is the call where you said she can't keep

0:44:36.640 --> 0:44:40.759
<v Speaker 1>her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes,

0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:46.600
<v Speaker 1>and George, she's four years old. Yes, you said she

0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.000
<v Speaker 1>does anything deliberate you to try and crush him deliberately.

0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece,

0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.520
<v Speaker 1>your four year niece, as a bitch because she was.

0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:06.560
<v Speaker 2>I'll explain this before five six days with no sleeping caffeine.

0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:07.960
<v Speaker 2>You say stuff you don't really mean.

0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:09.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you said a lot of things.

0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my

0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.239
<v Speaker 2>son that she had a new mom and he didn't.

0:45:19.800 --> 0:45:24.440
<v Speaker 1>You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica

0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:25.360
<v Speaker 1>a crazy whore.

0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:26.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember that.

0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:29.320
<v Speaker 1>You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy

0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:29.839
<v Speaker 1>hor down.

0:45:29.960 --> 0:45:33.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember that conversation, am I saying as possible? Yeah,

0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:35.799
<v Speaker 2>I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.600
<v Speaker 2>of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean,

0:45:38.640 --> 0:45:40.800
<v Speaker 2>but I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,

0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:42.440
<v Speaker 2>massive amounts of caffeine.

0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:47.840
<v Speaker 1>Sure, And I mean you called Randa, I think a

0:45:47.960 --> 0:45:49.680
<v Speaker 1>lazy crackhore.

0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>I think I've called her that more than once, okay.

0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.440
<v Speaker 1>And you told the agents at the border that you

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:02.560
<v Speaker 1>thought that Hannah turned into a.

0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Whore from what everybody else will say, okay.

0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:10.160
<v Speaker 1>And that was after she had left Jake.

0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Well everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To

0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:16.120
<v Speaker 2>my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but

0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:19.280
<v Speaker 2>that's what everybody else will say, okay.

0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:25.080
<v Speaker 1>And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times,

0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:29.760
<v Speaker 1>and referred to Batman as a whore just like Tabby

0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:31.400
<v Speaker 1>many times.

0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:38.520
<v Speaker 4>Here again, Antinnette Levy, he's calling his niece.

0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:41.040
<v Speaker 11>You know, I think he called his niece a bit.

0:46:41.239 --> 0:46:41.799
<v Speaker 2>She called his.

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:45.440
<v Speaker 11>Sister in law horror, I mean, and he attributes that

0:46:45.480 --> 0:46:48.239
<v Speaker 11>to you know, I drive on the road and I'm

0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 11>up a long time, and you know, drink caffeine, and

0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:55.120
<v Speaker 11>I just think to myself, like I could see that.

0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:59.000
<v Speaker 10>I mean, I mean, I've been wound.

0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:02.880
<v Speaker 11>Up before and ranted and and said things and you know,

0:47:03.160 --> 0:47:03.680
<v Speaker 11>you go.

0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Off on a.

0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:09.239
<v Speaker 11>Tirade, but at the same time, in one of my

0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:12.239
<v Speaker 11>tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year

0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:13.520
<v Speaker 11>old child like that.

0:47:14.840 --> 0:47:19.200
<v Speaker 4>Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George

0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 4>Wagner pushed back against angiecin Eppu's questions. He insisted in

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.080
<v Speaker 4>one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that

0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:30.560
<v Speaker 4>his mother and brother are lying, and.

0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:32.319
<v Speaker 2>My mom and brother are lying to you.

0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:36.399
<v Speaker 1>They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else is lying,

0:47:36.680 --> 0:47:40.839
<v Speaker 1>like Tabitha is lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody to talk

0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:44.080
<v Speaker 1>about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:46.360
<v Speaker 2>I did not say Chelsea is lying. I said she's mistaken.

0:47:47.000 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, And even though you've not managed to tell us

0:47:51.040 --> 0:47:53.279
<v Speaker 1>anything consistent with what you told the agents at the

0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:56.480
<v Speaker 1>border in twenty seventeen, you're the one that's telling the truth.

0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember exactly everything I said the border.

0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:07.120
<v Speaker 1>That's not the question. The question is what you're saying

0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:10.239
<v Speaker 1>does today is not consistent with what you've said at

0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:10.880
<v Speaker 1>the border.

0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:13.719
<v Speaker 2>Ye. I can't say if you guse or not because

0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:15.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember everything I've said there.

0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:17.040
<v Speaker 1>But everybody else is lying.

0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:20.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about

0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:23.439
<v Speaker 2>that night. We're gonna mistake in one. They're confusing two

0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:24.719
<v Speaker 2>different events into one.

0:48:26.680 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 8>Angie Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes

0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:33.960
<v Speaker 8>across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does

0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:36.960
<v Speaker 8>it work again? He only needs to convince one juror

0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:39.520
<v Speaker 8>that he is telling the truth and that Jake and

0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:42.080
<v Speaker 8>his mom are lying. Caneppa is trying to rattle him,

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:44.239
<v Speaker 8>but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at

0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 8>the same time, Kinnepa makes the point for George to

0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:48.640
<v Speaker 8>be telling the truth, a lot of other people need

0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:52.040
<v Speaker 8>to be lying, which is a good point because Jake

0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:55.319
<v Speaker 8>and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They

0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:57.799
<v Speaker 8>have both been in separate jails this entire time with

0:48:57.840 --> 0:49:00.880
<v Speaker 8>no communication, so the fact that their truth stories matchup

0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.399
<v Speaker 8>is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps they're telling

0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 8>the truth, because George could be lying all by himself,

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:08.080
<v Speaker 8>but how could those who have the same story without

0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:09.080
<v Speaker 8>communicating first.

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:13.200
<v Speaker 9>They may have practiced a script to some degree before

0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:16.640
<v Speaker 9>they're arrests. They might have been planning for this moment

0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:17.480
<v Speaker 9>all along.

0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:20.640
<v Speaker 10>But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner

0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:21.200
<v Speaker 10>are both.

0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:23.440
<v Speaker 8>The state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with

0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:26.919
<v Speaker 8>the prosecution and their team to figure out what.

0:49:26.840 --> 0:49:30.080
<v Speaker 10>They're going to say on the stand. In conversation with Mike.

0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:33.759
<v Speaker 8>Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses

0:49:33.800 --> 0:49:36.239
<v Speaker 8>on what they're going to say, But we do know

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.359
<v Speaker 8>they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They

0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:41.760
<v Speaker 8>spend hours talking over every single possible detail.

0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:48.560
<v Speaker 4>Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.

0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:53.160
<v Speaker 8>We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like

0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:56.080
<v Speaker 8>the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I

0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:58.560
<v Speaker 8>think it ultimately comes down to its what George said

0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:02.120
<v Speaker 8>versus what Angela Jake said like that is what I

0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:04.600
<v Speaker 8>think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it

0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:05.919
<v Speaker 8>that same way or yeah?

0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:09.200
<v Speaker 13>I mean it would come down to credibility from George

0:50:09.239 --> 0:50:14.320
<v Speaker 13>and Angela, And I think the credibility goes with Angela

0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:18.760
<v Speaker 13>because George any number of times just said I don't recall,

0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:21.719
<v Speaker 13>I don't remember, I didn't count him up, but there

0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:24.880
<v Speaker 13>are a lot of times that he said that and

0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:28.960
<v Speaker 13>I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony

0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:33.040
<v Speaker 13>for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So I

0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:35.879
<v Speaker 13>think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's

0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:39.359
<v Speaker 13>you know, it's George against those two, I think I

0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:43.360
<v Speaker 13>think they win and George doesn't because a lot of

0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:46.400
<v Speaker 13>things he didn't remember, and he contradicted himself on a

0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:47.680
<v Speaker 13>number of occasions.

0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:51.319
<v Speaker 8>And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela. They have

0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:54.440
<v Speaker 8>not communicated, so it's not like their comparing notes. If

0:50:54.440 --> 0:50:56.919
<v Speaker 8>their stories lineup, isn't that must be worth a lot

0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:58.960
<v Speaker 8>more than George by himself.

0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:03.040
<v Speaker 13>No question about it. Because they were kept separate. There's

0:51:03.080 --> 0:51:05.280
<v Speaker 13>no way they could get together out in the hallway

0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:09.200
<v Speaker 13>and they get their story straight. So yeah, that, I mean,

0:51:09.239 --> 0:51:12.800
<v Speaker 13>that gives them I think, another reason why they have

0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:14.480
<v Speaker 13>the greater credibility here.

0:51:16.560 --> 0:51:21.200
<v Speaker 4>But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments.

0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:25.320
<v Speaker 1>You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Schier. Correct.

0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:32.160
<v Speaker 1>I said that, yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake

0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:36.760
<v Speaker 1>did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember

0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:43.080
<v Speaker 1>telling your brother that you should go to BCI and

0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:49.320
<v Speaker 1>tell them that he'll he'll rat you guys out because

0:51:49.320 --> 0:51:50.520
<v Speaker 1>he's the biggest rat there is.

0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I remember that, okay.

0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:59.080
<v Speaker 1>And do you remember also telling your mother, let me

0:51:59.120 --> 0:52:02.080
<v Speaker 1>tell you something. I love you the only reason and

0:52:02.120 --> 0:52:04.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this. Everything

0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:07.200
<v Speaker 1>that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for

0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:10.759
<v Speaker 1>with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got

0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:15.360
<v Speaker 1>away with that craft was because every time somebody caved,

0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:20.560
<v Speaker 1>everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do

0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:21.319
<v Speaker 1>you remember saying that?

0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly.

0:52:24.239 --> 0:52:27.840
<v Speaker 1>The conversation, okay, And that was played in overcourt.

0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Thanks, so ya, okay?

0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:36.080
<v Speaker 1>And is that your philosophy? You don't gave and you

0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:36.720
<v Speaker 1>don't crumble.

0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Now, for what I believe you're trying to say it

0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:42.200
<v Speaker 2>as wow, I.

0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Don't specimically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble

0:52:45.640 --> 0:52:47.960
<v Speaker 1>with law enforcements because somebody cracked.

0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe you should plead out to something you

0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:50.839
<v Speaker 2>didn't do.

0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:57.600
<v Speaker 4>After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner,

0:52:58.040 --> 0:53:01.560
<v Speaker 4>his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him

0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:05.720
<v Speaker 4>several questions about the murders.

0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:08.040
<v Speaker 7>George, just a few follow up questions, probably been along

0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:10.360
<v Speaker 7>a couple of days before you, hasn't it appairly?

0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:12.320
<v Speaker 5>George?

0:53:12.360 --> 0:53:15.480
<v Speaker 7>Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen eleven No?

0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:17.720
<v Speaker 5>Did you know he owned one?

0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:17.840
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:18.279
<v Speaker 9>One.

0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:22.200
<v Speaker 7>Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate

0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:23.520
<v Speaker 7>in these murders in any way?

0:53:23.719 --> 0:53:23.799
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:25.960
<v Speaker 5>Did you plan these murders?

0:53:26.040 --> 0:53:26.120
<v Speaker 4>No?

0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:27.719
<v Speaker 5>Did you know they were going to have?

0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:28.360
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:31.200
<v Speaker 7>Did you know after the murders that they in fact

0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:32.760
<v Speaker 7>your family had been involved?

0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:34.600
<v Speaker 2>No? Not until my rubbish proffert.

0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:38.719
<v Speaker 7>And did you know did you ever go out to

0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:39.960
<v Speaker 7>Left Fork Road where.

0:53:39.880 --> 0:53:40.680
<v Speaker 5>Kid was killed?

0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:40.920
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:44.080
<v Speaker 5>Has anybody paid you anything for your testing?

0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:44.680
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:47.280
<v Speaker 5>Has anybody given you anything for your testimony?

0:53:47.440 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 7>Now?

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.560
<v Speaker 5>Did the state off you a plea bargain for your testiment?

0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:50.759
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:52.480
<v Speaker 5>Are you telling the truth?

0:53:52.719 --> 0:53:52.879
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:54.920
<v Speaker 5>Your life is on the line.

0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:55.200
<v Speaker 9>Yes?

0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:56.720
<v Speaker 5>Are you telling the truth?

0:53:56.880 --> 0:53:57.040
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

0:53:57.760 --> 0:53:58.839
<v Speaker 5>As you answer to God?

0:53:59.239 --> 0:53:59.399
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:08.759
<v Speaker 4>And if you yes, with one last chance to potentially

0:54:08.800 --> 0:54:12.799
<v Speaker 4>trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what

0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:17.200
<v Speaker 4>happens to him if he admits to killing the Rodents?

0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:20.400
<v Speaker 1>What happens to you if you come in here and

0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:24.319
<v Speaker 1>admit that you and your brother and your father went

0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.359
<v Speaker 1>up to Union Hill Road that night and then out

0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:33.120
<v Speaker 1>to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent

0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:37.320
<v Speaker 1>people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them

0:54:37.800 --> 0:54:42.000
<v Speaker 1>with babies in the bed with them that, from all testimony,

0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:47.359
<v Speaker 1>were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if

0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:49.839
<v Speaker 1>you come in here on that stand and.

0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Admit to that, do you want to hear? Answer? Well,

0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:54.360
<v Speaker 2>I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.

0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:59.439
<v Speaker 1>I want to know what happens to you if you

0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:02.040
<v Speaker 1>come in hear and admit that.

0:55:02.560 --> 0:55:04.919
<v Speaker 2>What should happen to anybody is they should have death

0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:06.080
<v Speaker 2>given to them.

0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:10.239
<v Speaker 1>And the biggest difference you agree between you and your

0:55:10.239 --> 0:55:14.360
<v Speaker 1>brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells

0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:15.960
<v Speaker 1>about it and you.

0:55:16.000 --> 0:55:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Don't when we were children.

0:55:17.520 --> 0:55:22.600
<v Speaker 5>Yes, question, you may step down now.

0:55:22.640 --> 0:55:25.399
<v Speaker 12>Since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any

0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:27.759
<v Speaker 12>of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who

0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:31.200
<v Speaker 12>they believe him or Jakein and his mom Angela, who

0:55:31.239 --> 0:55:34.479
<v Speaker 12>have already said under oath that George Wagner was part

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:36.640
<v Speaker 12>of the plot to kill multiple people.

0:55:39.719 --> 0:55:43.759
<v Speaker 4>More on that next time. For more information on the

0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:47.600
<v Speaker 4>case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kati

0:55:47.840 --> 0:55:52.280
<v Speaker 4>Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,

0:55:52.480 --> 0:55:57.360
<v Speaker 4>Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me

0:55:57.680 --> 0:56:02.440
<v Speaker 4>Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music

0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:05.640
<v Speaker 4>by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maascer is a production

0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:10.120
<v Speaker 4>of iHeartRadio and Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,

0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:14.600
<v Speaker 4>visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:16.160
<v Speaker 4>to your favorite shows.