Speaker 1: It is really important to think about how this boundary
Speaker 1: might be received. But what's more important is to figure
Speaker 1: out just how to say it. Welcome to the one
Speaker 1: you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance
Speaker 1: of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think ring true, and yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on
Speaker 1: this episode is Nedra Glover, tab a New York Times
Speaker 1: bestselling author, licensed therapist, and sought after relationship expert. Today,
Speaker 1: Nedre and Eric discuss her book set Boundaries, Find a Piece,
Speaker 1: a Guide to reclaiming Yourself. Hi Nedra, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I am really
Speaker 1: excited to have you on. We're going to be discussing
Speaker 1: your book set Boundaries Find Peace, a guide to reclaiming yourself.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's start, like we always do,
Speaker 1: with the parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother
Speaker 1: who's talking to their granddaughter and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the granddaughter stops. She thinks about it
Speaker 1: for a second, and she looks up at her grandmother,
Speaker 1: and she said, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. That
Speaker 1: parable represents our human uts. And I think it's so
Speaker 1: true that we have these different parts of us, and
Speaker 1: we are constantly trying to manage which one we want
Speaker 1: to give energy to. So let's start with just defining
Speaker 1: what boundaries are. How would you define what a boundary is?
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us it's a term that
Speaker 1: most people are probably familiar with at least to some degree.
Speaker 1: But specifically, how would you define a boundary. I would
Speaker 1: define a boundary as something that you need to make
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable in your relationships and in your life.
Speaker 1: A boundary could be you saying no. It could be
Speaker 1: making a request. It could be accepting help. It could
Speaker 1: be you changing something. It could be so many different things.
Speaker 1: For many, many years, boundaries were considered only as saying no.
Speaker 1: This is the boundary saying no. But that's just one
Speaker 1: small part of a boundary. There's so many other ways
Speaker 1: to set boundaries. I think about bedtime as a boundary.
Speaker 1: I think about traffic lights as a boundary. I think
Speaker 1: about you set the remote to to turn off after
Speaker 1: sixty minutes. You know, the sleep timer as a boundary. Like,
Speaker 1: there's so many things that we already do that are boundaries.
Speaker 1: And so it's just about thinking about what more do
Speaker 1: you need? Do you need a boundary with when you
Speaker 1: start and stop work? Do you need a boundary around
Speaker 1: own what people can share with you, where the questions
Speaker 1: they can ask you? But we already have these rules
Speaker 1: in plays, and it's a matter of thinking about where
Speaker 1: am I functioning that is causing me some issues. What
Speaker 1: led you into boundaries being something that you have talked
Speaker 1: about so much, written so much about, and been so
Speaker 1: interested in. Were their personal experiences in your own life
Speaker 1: that really brought it to mind? Was it work that
Speaker 1: you did with clients A combination? It was a combination.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what boundaries were. When I was actually
Speaker 1: doing boundaries work, I thought I was just big a jerk.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I think I call this jerk work. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but jerk work, um, you know, telling people know, um,
Speaker 1: setting limitations, really being clear about what I'm willing to
Speaker 1: do and not willing to do. And at the time
Speaker 1: of me starting to practice boundaries, I received a lot
Speaker 1: of pushback and I didn't know what to do with that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, what is going on? And
Speaker 1: I went to therapy and the therapist said, no, you're
Speaker 1: actually doing something very good. But the people around you,
Speaker 1: they're not used to it, and so there's a lot
Speaker 1: of pushback because they want something different. They want these
Speaker 1: things from you that you're unwilling to give. And these
Speaker 1: things are not harmful to them, but they are harmful
Speaker 1: to you because you're here talking about these things. Um So,
Speaker 1: as I became a therapist, I discovered boundaries, and you know,
Speaker 1: I said, I wonder if I started to apply some
Speaker 1: of these concepts to many of the things that people
Speaker 1: inter therapy, you know, trying to sort through, like anxiety, work,
Speaker 1: life balance issues, marriage issues, issues with their friends and family.
Speaker 1: And I started to apply these concepts of how to
Speaker 1: be assertive, how to ask for what you'd need, what
Speaker 1: is your rule here, what is your limitation, what would
Speaker 1: be hopeful? And how you schedule things, just all of
Speaker 1: these things, and I came to understand that these things
Speaker 1: are actually boundaries. Something that you said recently on your
Speaker 1: Instagram account was you said, I found the areas that
Speaker 1: I complain about the most are directly tied to the
Speaker 1: places where I need firmer boundaries. Do you find that
Speaker 1: to be a good rule of thumb for people in general? Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think so much of my job is telling people
Speaker 1: how normal they are and how the things that they're
Speaker 1: trying to minimize as a problem are actually a problem,
Speaker 1: and that's why they're talking about them. Because you know,
Speaker 1: people will say, I don't know why I'm talking about this,
Speaker 1: I'm like, because it's a problem for you. And we've
Speaker 1: been trying to think that there are small problems and
Speaker 1: big problems, and we cannot talk about the small problems,
Speaker 1: like our male person always being you know, late in coming,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe after six or something. It's like, this
Speaker 1: is such a small but it's the thing that we
Speaker 1: keep talking about. So perhaps playing a call to the
Speaker 1: post office would help you feel better, because you've been
Speaker 1: talking about this for two weeks. So really helping people
Speaker 1: to figure out this thing that you keep talking about.
Speaker 1: I wonder where is the boundary, what needs to be done,
Speaker 1: what part of this can you control or manage? And
Speaker 1: so often once we do that, once we figure out
Speaker 1: I am really annoyed when this person invites me to
Speaker 1: a birthday party and then they show up late. Like,
Speaker 1: once you figure out all of these things that annoy
Speaker 1: you and start to figure out ways to have some
Speaker 1: resolution in these situations, you do feel better. You say
Speaker 1: that boundaries are the gateway to healthy relationships and that
Speaker 1: clarity saves relationships. And I think you know most of
Speaker 1: us when it comes to setting boundaries and our relationships,
Speaker 1: we're afraid that the boundaries are going to damage the relationship.
Speaker 1: But you're saying that it actually saves them. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think about marriages, and one of the things that often
Speaker 1: happens with marriages is you sit on all these problems.
Speaker 1: You never set expectations. And on the therapy side, we
Speaker 1: see couples when they are on fire, at their worst
Speaker 1: because they've sett on all of these issues and they
Speaker 1: fear signed to this person, I need help with blank,
Speaker 1: or can you please do blank, to the point that
Speaker 1: they are not resentful, they're angry and often ready to
Speaker 1: leave the relationship. And many years ago, setting some boundaries,
Speaker 1: are making some requests would have been extremely helpful and
Speaker 1: we would not be at this point most often in
Speaker 1: relationships with people, but we often allow things to go
Speaker 1: too far, and by the time they reach a certain
Speaker 1: point where like there's no point because now I am
Speaker 1: upset about something that happened for five years ago, or
Speaker 1: I am upset about this person's unwillingness to change because
Speaker 1: they've gotten comfortable disrespecting a boundary that they didn't know about,
Speaker 1: and so now we're asking them to change after they've
Speaker 1: been able to do something for such a long time.
Speaker 1: And that's really where people start to get upset because
Speaker 1: it's the spirit of I've been doing this. It's like
Speaker 1: you've allowed me to do this for so long. How
Speaker 1: dare you tell me that I can't do this thing anymore?
Speaker 1: And the sooner we placed the boundary, particularly as we're
Speaker 1: meeting new p both stepping into new situations, it is
Speaker 1: so helpful to just start with the boundaries. It's certainly
Speaker 1: possible to clean up some relationships, but if just starting today,
Speaker 1: whatever person you meet today tomorrow, just start placing the
Speaker 1: boundaries right away, whether it's a new job or a
Speaker 1: new TV and you want to watch less, whatever the
Speaker 1: thing is, placed the boundaries right away, because it's so
Speaker 1: much easier to start with the boundary than to go
Speaker 1: back in some of these older relationships and start saying
Speaker 1: I have an issue with this, so this and this
Speaker 1: and this. In those cases with the older relationships, it
Speaker 1: is helpful to start at the thing that is annoying
Speaker 1: you the most, or the thing that you think you
Speaker 1: would have the most success with doing. Yeah, boy, that
Speaker 1: rings so true in my own life. I think I've
Speaker 1: been with my current partner about six years and we
Speaker 1: are incredibly happy. This comes after or two previous divorces,
Speaker 1: So you can tell them a quick learner um. And
Speaker 1: but one of the things that I think we did
Speaker 1: in this relationship, and that I have really worked really
Speaker 1: hard to do, is to say what is going on
Speaker 1: with me, if there's something I'm unhappy with, or there's
Speaker 1: something I don't like, or there's something I want to
Speaker 1: be different or something I want, which is my sort
Speaker 1: of traditionally my achilles heel. I am not by nature
Speaker 1: a good boundary setter. I'm very much like the people
Speaker 1: you describe in the book who are terrified of it.
Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, I just with this situation. I
Speaker 1: was just like enough of that, and we have a
Speaker 1: wonderful and lovely relationship. And that's not the only reason,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly something that we both have really been
Speaker 1: focused on. And I think it finally occurred to me
Speaker 1: this time around the insanity of like getting into a
Speaker 1: relationship with somebody and either doing everything they want you
Speaker 1: to do to make them like you, or tolerating behavior
Speaker 1: you don't like to make them like you, because even
Speaker 1: if you win that game, you lose, you know. I
Speaker 1: realized how much I tried to contort myself into being
Speaker 1: a certain way so this person would like me and
Speaker 1: want to be with me, and then that would happen
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, oh boy, what have I done?
Speaker 1: Now I'm in a relationship where I can't at all
Speaker 1: be myself, Like what was I trying to accomplish here?
Speaker 1: This doesn't make any sense. Yeah. I remember once I
Speaker 1: dated someone and I thought, this person cannot see me
Speaker 1: using profanity, and probably for a year or two of dating,
Speaker 1: like I just withhild my very strong desire to let
Speaker 1: out certain words, like I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's not lady like, and it just, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I was just like huh. And so I got out
Speaker 1: that relationship and now I'm able to like a saying
Speaker 1: and it no. But it feels really good just being
Speaker 1: able to be yourself because to withhold a part of you,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it's a huge part, but
Speaker 1: to me, it's expressive and sometimes it's just fun to
Speaker 1: throw in a f bomb, to tell a story like
Speaker 1: it just makes it a little more fun, right, And
Speaker 1: to force myself to withhold that because this person thought,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that's uh. It's like wow, that would
Speaker 1: be terrible to try to commit to for an entire lifetime,
Speaker 1: to be something that you are not. And I think we,
Speaker 1: you know, we we do it because sometimes the other person,
Speaker 1: you know, says, this is this is what I like,
Speaker 1: this is what I don't like, and you're trying to, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna honor your boundary and dishonor my
Speaker 1: core self but all right, and it just it hurts you,
Speaker 1: It really hurts you in the and to betray yourself
Speaker 1: in ways that you know don't feel good, and that
Speaker 1: could be with anything, that could be you know, biding
Speaker 1: your tongue about you know, how willing you are to
Speaker 1: participate in family activities, or you know, all sorts of
Speaker 1: things that we do not say that really deteriorate the relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then of course, as we all know, those things
Speaker 1: end up often coming out sideways. Yes, absolutely, So just
Speaker 1: beg yourself from the beginning, and of course honoring someone
Speaker 1: else's boundary, but being yourself even and honoring it because
Speaker 1: there are certain things that we just can't suppress and
Speaker 1: there are certain things that we need to be who
Speaker 1: we are. So I want to move into some more
Speaker 1: tactical stuff around how we set boundaries, what situations to
Speaker 1: do it in. But I'm going to start by talking
Speaker 1: about you describe three levels of boundary. So can you
Speaker 1: walk us through what the three levels of boundaries are? Yes,
Speaker 1: So the three types of boundaries are porous and porous
Speaker 1: boundaries is when we are passive about our boundaries. We're
Speaker 1: not letting the other person know that we have a
Speaker 1: difference of opinion. We disagree with what is happening. We
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, but we do feel it. We are aware
Speaker 1: that something is off here, but we're so afraid to
Speaker 1: express it. And then we have rigid which is we
Speaker 1: have so many boundaries. We have boundaries about everything. We
Speaker 1: have boundaries so much so that we have built walls
Speaker 1: to keep people out. We don't have any flexibility. We
Speaker 1: don't allow anything to penetrate those boundaries. There are no exceptions.
Speaker 1: And then we have healthy boundaries where there is some
Speaker 1: flexibilities because all rules don't apply to all things. Sometimes
Speaker 1: we want to change our boundaries. Sometimes we want to
Speaker 1: explore new boundaries um and so those things should be
Speaker 1: done in relationships in a very healthy way of saying
Speaker 1: I want, I need, I expect, and over time those
Speaker 1: needs may shift. You know, our needs in the pandemic
Speaker 1: may be different than our needs outside of a pandemic,
Speaker 1: our needs, and you know, one relationship may be different
Speaker 1: in another relationship. Surely our relationships with all coworkers are
Speaker 1: not the same. And so your boundaries are really a
Speaker 1: reflection of what's needed based on the situation and not
Speaker 1: necessarily um overall thing unless it's just you know, a
Speaker 1: general rule of I don't like when people yell at
Speaker 1: me or you know, like those sort of things. But
Speaker 1: we can change our boundaries to fit the situation. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I really like that because one of my questions is
Speaker 1: I started the book and have often thought about when
Speaker 1: I thought about boundaries is sort of you use the
Speaker 1: word in there, you know, what when is it a boundary?
Speaker 1: And when is it a wall? Do boundaries lead to walls?
Speaker 1: And and so I loved the way you sort of said,
Speaker 1: well they can. You know, if your boundary is too rigid, yeah,
Speaker 1: it becomes like a wall. You know, if it's too poorous,
Speaker 1: that's not good either. But that we want these healthy boundaries.
Speaker 1: And I like that you stress over and over that
Speaker 1: that's going to look a little bit different for everybody.
Speaker 1: You know, the boundary that you need to set with
Speaker 1: who you need to set it with and what it
Speaker 1: needs to look like is going to look very different
Speaker 1: from person to person, and so thinking that there are
Speaker 1: hard and fast, you know, boundaries we should all set
Speaker 1: is misleading. We have to know ourselves. You know, what
Speaker 1: works for us is not what works for someone else. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get the question a lot. People will tell me
Speaker 1: a situation and they'll say, what boundary should I have?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know because the boundary is
Speaker 1: so personal. Well, I'm I feel comfortable doing is not
Speaker 1: what you would feel comfortable doing. So it really is
Speaker 1: based on your comfort level and not based on some
Speaker 1: general rule of thumb. Now there is, of course, things
Speaker 1: that are not actually boundaries. Their rules are trying to
Speaker 1: control other I mean not rules, but they're trying to
Speaker 1: control other people. They're cutting people off, they're doing all
Speaker 1: of these other things. But just in general, your boundary
Speaker 1: is so personal that I can't set them for you.
Speaker 1: And the book is so full of examples of what
Speaker 1: boundaries could be, but you have to apply it to
Speaker 1: your personal situation to see even if those examples will fit. Probably,
Speaker 1: in order to set good boundaries, we have to be
Speaker 1: clear on kind of what our underlying values are. I
Speaker 1: mentioned with you in our pre show conversation about how
Speaker 1: my mom today was in a car accident. I had
Speaker 1: to go take care of her. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that my partner I are navigating at this stage
Speaker 1: of our life is caregiving for elderly parents. Her mom
Speaker 1: has dementia, my dad has Alzheimer's, my mom is not
Speaker 1: well in a variety of different ways, and so we've
Speaker 1: been in this constant process of trying to navigate how
Speaker 1: much do we do for them, you know, And there's
Speaker 1: a desire for someone else to tell me that's enough,
Speaker 1: that's enough, or that's too much. And I've just realized
Speaker 1: that's not how it works. It's us looking at our
Speaker 1: values and how certain things weigh on us and where
Speaker 1: on us, and taking all that into consideration and trying
Speaker 1: to spawned as wisely as we can in the moment,
Speaker 1: and recognizing also that that changes, you know, that that
Speaker 1: the boundary we might have set a month ago might
Speaker 1: be different, you know, a month later, the situation changes,
Speaker 1: We change. I mean, there's so many things that go on,
Speaker 1: and it would be nice for you know, you to
Speaker 1: be able to tell me what my boundaries would be.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it wouldn't be, but sometimes it feels
Speaker 1: like it would be nice to have someone tell us.
Speaker 1: But I've discovered this is really deep work, sort of
Speaker 1: really looking at what what matters to us. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: you use a beautiful example there. I think even with
Speaker 1: caring for your parents, people have different financial resources, and
Speaker 1: so that would play into what you're able to do. Perhaps,
Speaker 1: if you don't have a a vast amount of financial resources,
Speaker 1: your support maybe more verbal or you know, helping your
Speaker 1: parents accumulate resources. If you can contribute in a financial way,
Speaker 1: it may be more financial in terms of securing things
Speaker 1: for your parents. And so it's very hard to have
Speaker 1: a one size fits all approach to something that is
Speaker 1: so personal. One thing, though, that does seem to be
Speaker 1: while we're not going to say set rules across the board,
Speaker 1: one thing that you do normalize is that if we
Speaker 1: need to start setting boundaries with people, it is very
Speaker 1: often and for very many people, an uncomfortable process. I
Speaker 1: think that's really good for people to hear you say
Speaker 1: somewhere that you know there's no necessarily guilt free. You
Speaker 1: know that guilt can be part of the process too,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean it's bad. Yeah, a huge part
Speaker 1: of setting the boundary is learning to deal with our discomfort.
Speaker 1: And sometimes that discomfort is guilt. Sometimes it's remorse, sadness, anger,
Speaker 1: that a person would get it before you had to
Speaker 1: tell them. I mean, all sorts of things that we
Speaker 1: might feel. And it is a part of the process
Speaker 1: to deal with all of that discomfort and steal place
Speaker 1: the boundary. So let's talk about a couple of those
Speaker 1: words use there, because remorse sounds to me like would
Speaker 1: I do something if it's going to make me remorseful?
Speaker 1: So what's the situation where setting a boundary might make
Speaker 1: me remorseful? When you catch one of the other person's
Speaker 1: reaction and it's something that you feel like, man, I
Speaker 1: want to take it back. I don't want to. I
Speaker 1: wish I could undo the boundary. You know. I think
Speaker 1: of breakups, and you know, a boundary could come across
Speaker 1: as as breaking up with someone, ending a relationship, a divorce, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a cut off, any of these things, and
Speaker 1: those are really uncomfortable boundaries to set with people. And
Speaker 1: then I think about, what is this What if this
Speaker 1: is the healthiest thing for them to do. I know
Speaker 1: that it hurts the other person, but what if this
Speaker 1: is the healthiest thing that this person could think of
Speaker 1: to do for themselves. And sometimes people do have remorse
Speaker 1: when you know you you end a relationship and someone
Speaker 1: is sad and they're crying and they're upset, and it's like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like what did I do? Like you
Speaker 1: don't want that, but you also don't want to be
Speaker 1: in the relationship. It can be really uncomfortable. But I
Speaker 1: think sometimes it is still in our best interests to
Speaker 1: set the boundary. Before we move into how to set
Speaker 1: a boundary, you say that there are four ways to
Speaker 1: unsuccessfully communicate a boundary, So let's talk about before we
Speaker 1: move into how to do this right. What are some
Speaker 1: of the ways that we often do this wrong. We
Speaker 1: ignore that a boundary needs to be set, which what
Speaker 1: I would identify that as being passive. Sometimes we go
Speaker 1: a little too hard with setting the boundary. We go aggressive.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we manipulate people to get what we want. And
Speaker 1: the most common in healthy way is being passive aggressive.
Speaker 1: We don't directly tell a person what we want, We
Speaker 1: just acted out in our behaviors, or we don't um
Speaker 1: say anything at all. We just really live in that
Speaker 1: resentment and we never set the boundary with them. The
Speaker 1: healthiest way for us to show up is just to
Speaker 1: be assertive. And this is a really hard part because
Speaker 1: boundaries do sometimes hurt people. I just talked about breakups, divorce,
Speaker 1: cut offs. Boundaries do hurt people sometimes, and I get
Speaker 1: that it's really hard to to set them in those instances.
Speaker 1: But there are so many times where we are afraid
Speaker 1: to set a boundary and it's not hurting anyone. It's
Speaker 1: saying to someone, can you please take your shoes off
Speaker 1: when you come in? Hey, I'm gonna have my lunch
Speaker 1: right now. Can we talk about this when I'm back
Speaker 1: at work. You know, just all of these boundaries that
Speaker 1: really don't hurt people that we're afraid to set. I
Speaker 1: can't I can't tell them, I can't talk right now. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to have your lunch and watch
Speaker 1: your show on Netflix, Like that's also important, And so
Speaker 1: I think it is really important to think about how
Speaker 1: this boundary might be received. But what's more important is
Speaker 1: to figure out just how to say it and not
Speaker 1: focusing so much on the damage or the what ifs
Speaker 1: this happened or how the person will perceive it, because
Speaker 1: we don't know. Yeah, I feel like I was raised
Speaker 1: in and then through a lot of years of practice
Speaker 1: all four of those wrong ways to do it. I
Speaker 1: leaned towards passive, passive, aggressive, or manipulation like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: like if I want to eat my lunch and watch
Speaker 1: my TV show, I'm not going to say that. I'll
Speaker 1: just look at my computer fifty five times when you're
Speaker 1: trying to talk to me instead of just you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm hoping you'll figure it out, or I'll just
Speaker 1: be a little bit grumpy and if I'm grumpy, then
Speaker 1: maybe you'll you'll get the message. You know. As I
Speaker 1: was reading your book, I just was like looking back
Speaker 1: at my family of origin, and you know, again, so
Speaker 1: much of my early life the way I just you know,
Speaker 1: it was so passive, aggressive in so many different ways,
Speaker 1: or manipulative, you know, which I wouldn't have thought of
Speaker 1: myself as manipulative, but that's often what it is, you know,
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to get somebody to do a certain
Speaker 1: thing without actually saying the words. Yeah. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think so many of us want people to just figure
Speaker 1: it out. I do too. I'm just like, let me
Speaker 1: give them like fifty seven chances to just try to
Speaker 1: get this. It's like, don't you see? But I've learned
Speaker 1: the hard way that people do not see what I
Speaker 1: see because they don't have my eyes. They don't have
Speaker 1: the same goals or desires as me. And things are
Speaker 1: not common sense. They are things that I know, and
Speaker 1: other people may need to be taught because these are
Speaker 1: things very unique to me. And we just think these
Speaker 1: things are just general rules of thumb. They should know,
Speaker 1: they know, and it's like they don't know. That's why
Speaker 1: they keep doing this. Um if they thought differently, they
Speaker 1: would be doing something different. And so it is our
Speaker 1: job to let people know how to show up in
Speaker 1: relationship with us. So you say that to successfully communicate
Speaker 1: a boundary, be assertive and follow these three easy you say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe not so easy, but doable steps. You know, in
Speaker 1: addition to sort of being assertive, what are the three
Speaker 1: steps that we want to follow through with here? I
Speaker 1: think step number one would be being clear and concise.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we uh say a lot, but we don't set
Speaker 1: a boundary, will tell people what the problem is, and
Speaker 1: we expect them to figure out what the boundary is.
Speaker 1: And it's really about us being clear about what the
Speaker 1: boundary is. This is what I want, This is what
Speaker 1: I need, this is what I expect. Step two is,
Speaker 1: paulse what do you have there? Because I'm writing a
Speaker 1: workbook and I think I rewrote that. What do you
Speaker 1: have a step to directly state your need to request
Speaker 1: or say no? What will? Step one? Step one was
Speaker 1: be clear, do your best to be as straightforward as possible.
Speaker 1: Look what I'm doing the boundaries workbook. I am I've
Speaker 1: rewritten a little bit. Okay, you don't have to go
Speaker 1: off of what's in my book, though, because you can
Speaker 1: go off of whatever you think is best. So however
Speaker 1: you want to take this, I'll let you take it.
Speaker 1: Step two being direct, really getting to the core of
Speaker 1: what it is. And step three dealing with your discomfort,
Speaker 1: if you have any guilt, if you have any remorse sadness.
Speaker 1: Is so important that you address that and that you
Speaker 1: figure out whether you need to talk to a therapist,
Speaker 1: talk to a friend, really lean into your self care practices.
Speaker 1: But it's so important after you do the hard work
Speaker 1: of setting the boundary, that you really take care of yourself.
Speaker 1: I found the quote exactly, which is the question I'm
Speaker 1: us most often is how do I set boundaries? Without
Speaker 1: feeling guilty. There is no such thing as guilt free boundaries.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna read the next couple of sentences because
Speaker 1: I think they're really good. Guilt is in a limitation
Speaker 1: to setting boundaries. It's a feeling, and like all feelings,
Speaker 1: guilt will come and go. Try not to treat your
Speaker 1: guilt like the worst thing ever. Instead, embrace it as
Speaker 1: part of a complicated process, just one piece, not the
Speaker 1: entirety of the experience. Over Focusing on emotions just prolongs them.
Speaker 1: You can carry on while feeling guilty. So I think again,
Speaker 1: it's really important to normalize, Like, just because you feel
Speaker 1: bad doesn't mean it's not right to set the boundary.
Speaker 1: How do we sort out Obviously we want to do
Speaker 1: this before we set the boundary, but how do we
Speaker 1: sort out? Because as we start to think about setting
Speaker 1: a boundary and we go, okay, well, she's if I
Speaker 1: say that I'm gonna feel really guilty or am I
Speaker 1: going to feel remorseful? I don't know if I should
Speaker 1: do that, you know, because I'm reflecting a lot of
Speaker 1: my myself here, But that certainly was my thing was
Speaker 1: I would think onto that process and I'd be like
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna feel terrible if I do that, and
Speaker 1: so then I would choose not to do it. And
Speaker 1: sometimes this tendency to think ahead and go, well, if
Speaker 1: I do that, I'll feel bad is a useful skill,
Speaker 1: right like, well, if I eat three quarts of ice
Speaker 1: cream after dinner, I'm probably gonna feel bad, so I
Speaker 1: choose not to do it. It's a useful faculty to
Speaker 1: think ahead and go if I do that, I'll feel bad.
Speaker 1: But it can trip us up in this case. So
Speaker 1: what are some ways of thinking through whether the boundary
Speaker 1: should be said or not, even if we're uncomfortable with
Speaker 1: doing it. How much trouble is it causing you not
Speaker 1: to have the boundary? How are you suffering without the boundary?
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we are in situations and there's really
Speaker 1: no way around the boundary. There's no way for us
Speaker 1: to have peace in a situation without setting the boundary,
Speaker 1: and that's when we just have to set it, even
Speaker 1: through the discomfort or the fear of what ifs. I
Speaker 1: found that when people do the really hard work of
Speaker 1: stating with the bound three years, they actually feel a
Speaker 1: lot of relief because they've done this really hard thing
Speaker 1: that they've probably been thinking about for days or weeks
Speaker 1: or months or years. And yes, it's it's uncomfortable to
Speaker 1: do it, but it feels good to get it out.
Speaker 1: I've certainly set some boundaries that made my stomach hert.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I can't believe I said that,
Speaker 1: but who I'm so happy I said it. It just
Speaker 1: feels good to get it out, because sitting with it
Speaker 1: can be much worse than letting it out. I had
Speaker 1: this revelation years ago, which was as a conflict avoidant person,
Speaker 1: I would find myself saying, I'm not doing that. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to say that thing. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: do that thing in order to sort of and the
Speaker 1: phrase in my mind was keep the peace. And what
Speaker 1: I realized was that I wasn't keeping the peace. I
Speaker 1: was just shoving all the conflict kind of inside me.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe externally it seemed peaceful, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: because I was just carrying it all. And so to
Speaker 1: your point about what is it costing me if I
Speaker 1: don't set this boundary that that was a really big
Speaker 1: one for me to realize, like, this isn't working. Absolutely
Speaker 1: it isn't working. And once you realize that. I think
Speaker 1: it hopefully makes it a little bit easier. There are
Speaker 1: many ways we can set a boundary. We can tell
Speaker 1: someone directly, we can text them, we can leave them
Speaker 1: a voicemail, we can write them a letter, we can
Speaker 1: email them. I think it's great to speak to people
Speaker 1: in person, but the most important thing is that you
Speaker 1: get it out whatever way you can. And I know people, hey,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, they fired me by email. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: they you know, broke up with me by text. And
Speaker 1: it's not the ideal strategy because some things we believe
Speaker 1: require conversation. But no, on the other end, that that
Speaker 1: is the only way that this person thought that they
Speaker 1: could get this out. That is sometimes the only way
Speaker 1: that they were able to make this request. And making
Speaker 1: the request is such a hard thing that I would
Speaker 1: hate for anyone to delay it by having to do
Speaker 1: it face to face, you know, like it might take
Speaker 1: you eight more years, it might take you fifteen more
Speaker 1: years if we have to wait to have this, you know,
Speaker 1: face to face. But if you can text it, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe that'll make it a bit easier for you. If
Speaker 1: you could write it. And I think try to do
Speaker 1: the face to face try to have a phone call,
Speaker 1: of course, but I don't want you to be hard
Speaker 1: on yourself if you choose another modality to exercise the boundary, right,
Speaker 1: Like any of this, it's sort of finding the balance, which, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the ideal way to do it, but if you're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to do it otherwise. You
Speaker 1: say that there are common ways that people respond when
Speaker 1: we set a boundary, and I thought maybe we could
Speaker 1: walk through what a few of these are, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna start with the last one that is on the list,
Speaker 1: which is acceptance. And you say that most of the
Speaker 1: time people respond to boundaries fairly. Well, you know, but again,
Speaker 1: depend on you in your situation. You may get different things.
Speaker 1: But to assume it's going to go to bad, it's
Speaker 1: just not always that way. Yeah, most of the boundaries
Speaker 1: we set our honored. We just don't think of those
Speaker 1: things as boundaries because they're so easy. When I have
Speaker 1: well pre pandemic, I would have boundary workshops and I
Speaker 1: would ask people what are some of the boundaries you have,
Speaker 1: and they would talk about, well, in my house, I
Speaker 1: don't like this and that that that the all of
Speaker 1: these things, all of these rules in my car in
Speaker 1: my house, at work, in this relationship. And these are
Speaker 1: people who thought they had no boundaries. Black you have tons,
Speaker 1: You have tons, but they were just so easy to
Speaker 1: set to say to someone, you know, maybe your your
Speaker 1: hard thing is not saying no two invites. Maybe that's
Speaker 1: easy for you. Yeah, so that's not going to be
Speaker 1: something where you struggle. It's like, yeah, I tell people
Speaker 1: notice stuff all the time. Great that yeah, that's a boundary.
Speaker 1: That's a boundary. And see how easily you do that.
Speaker 1: Most of those boundaries, for you have been approved. People
Speaker 1: haven't said, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been approved, it's been accepted. But there are other
Speaker 1: times when you know, perhaps there's something just a little
Speaker 1: bit harder that gets in the way of us being
Speaker 1: able to, you know, really explore those boundaries with people.
Speaker 1: So when we run into things like say somebody ignoring
Speaker 1: a boundary, you say often in the book there's sort
Speaker 1: of two steps to this process. One is setting the boundary,
Speaker 1: and then the second is you actually then have to
Speaker 1: sort of follow it. What are some good ways of
Speaker 1: you know, dealing with when people are ignoring a boundary
Speaker 1: or our limit testing restating the boundary very clearly, going
Speaker 1: back to that three step process, going back to clearly
Speaker 1: and directly stating what the boundary is, because sometimes we'll
Speaker 1: get into the rhythm of pretending with them. Once they
Speaker 1: ignore the boundary or they push back, we we just
Speaker 1: throw away the boundary because we decide this person just
Speaker 1: can't listen us, so I'm going to stop trying to
Speaker 1: have this boundary with them, when really the work is
Speaker 1: to continue with your boundary, to restate that boundary and
Speaker 1: really stick to it, not to say, Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: have the boundary anymore because you made it too hard
Speaker 1: for me. Well, that's what they wanted, and they, you know,
Speaker 1: they got what they wanted. Now they don't have to
Speaker 1: have this boundary with you. Now. In most cases, you know,
Speaker 1: people won't go this far. But there are sometimes where
Speaker 1: people will ely ignore your boundary because it doesn't work
Speaker 1: for them, it's not what they want. I've had people say,
Speaker 1: you know, um, well that's not what I wanted to do. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, so they try to, you know, create a
Speaker 1: new rule. We do that all the time with spaces.
Speaker 1: We'll argue with people about a rule that they have
Speaker 1: that's a you know, a rule on the paper. You know,
Speaker 1: this is our rule here, and people don't like it.
Speaker 1: They're like, no, no, change your rule for me. It's like,
Speaker 1: well this, you know, this is the rule. So you know,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes people do want to push back because
Speaker 1: they want something else. They do ignore because they don't
Speaker 1: want you to have this boundary because it does not
Speaker 1: work for them. When I hear that, I think about
Speaker 1: the fact that it seems inevitably we run into situations
Speaker 1: where my boundary and your boundary might not agree with
Speaker 1: each other absolutely. You know, what are some strategies for
Speaker 1: working through that? Assuming that you know, it's not as
Speaker 1: simple as like, well, that relationship is not really important,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get rid of it. You know. I
Speaker 1: was thinking of one in your book where you were
Speaker 1: talking about a gentleman whose father drank too much and
Speaker 1: the different people in the family dealt with it differently,
Speaker 1: and one of the things his brother did was sort
Speaker 1: of pick a fight at family gatherings, and the gentleman
Speaker 1: was encouraged to set a new boundary with his brother,
Speaker 1: which was, please stop picking fights with dad at family gatherings.
Speaker 1: And I heard that and I thought, well, Okay. I
Speaker 1: can see saying Okay, that's what I would want, But
Speaker 1: the brother might be like, no, I want to discuss
Speaker 1: these things with dad. So you run into the situation
Speaker 1: where we see these things differently and my boundary sort
Speaker 1: of encroaches yours or vice versa. In that case, I
Speaker 1: will say, well, whose house is it? You know? You know,
Speaker 1: I think maybe if we have the gathering at your house,
Speaker 1: you can pick the fight, and if we have the
Speaker 1: gathering at my house, you cannot pick the foul fight. Like, so,
Speaker 1: where can we figure out some sort of compromise with this,
Speaker 1: because certain things can be compromised. I don't have to
Speaker 1: go to your house if I don't want to watch
Speaker 1: the fight. That's my choice. So I think there are
Speaker 1: some things where there is a clear collision and we
Speaker 1: just can't come to an agreement or anything. And I
Speaker 1: think there are many instances where there is some work
Speaker 1: around with these boundaries. It seems that on one hand,
Speaker 1: we sort of say, and you often encourage people in
Speaker 1: the book, you know, you don't have to explain and
Speaker 1: justify your boundary, And I think that makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense, and we may have a tendency to do
Speaker 1: that more often, but is it often helpful and in
Speaker 1: closer relationships and particularly if we are seeing things differently
Speaker 1: in this way that we do discuss and explain and
Speaker 1: negotiate a boundary. Well, in some instances we might give
Speaker 1: people a reason, but I wouldn't say a reason is
Speaker 1: an explanation. Um Explaining to me means you're looking for
Speaker 1: acceptance from from what you're saying, Like I'm explaining myself
Speaker 1: with the hope of you getting it and understanding it
Speaker 1: and now agreeing with me. And I think giving them
Speaker 1: a reason is saying, you know, this is why I've
Speaker 1: decided to do this thing. But all boundaries are not negotiable,
Speaker 1: and we should not enter our boundaries in certain scenarios
Speaker 1: with negotiation, you know, like this is something that we
Speaker 1: can talk through. There are some things that we had
Speaker 1: not talked through, and partnerships, you know, we had not
Speaker 1: talked through. Overspending, you know, it's like it's hurting our
Speaker 1: household because we're unable to pay bills, so there's really
Speaker 1: no perhaps no negotiation when there is a small pool
Speaker 1: of money, you know, like these sort of things. It's
Speaker 1: like some things are not negotiable because it can be
Speaker 1: a crisis. If we are negotiating in certain situations where
Speaker 1: it can be detrimental to our relationship. If we are
Speaker 1: negotiating now there are other things. If you're asking your
Speaker 1: partner with some support with the chores, and you want
Speaker 1: to negotiate, you know how often they clean, what days,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, go ahead and negotiate it. But
Speaker 1: you really have to figure out what is something that
Speaker 1: can be figured out together, and what is something that
Speaker 1: this is a matter of safety or crisis, and there
Speaker 1: is no negotiation and we really can't come to some
Speaker 1: middle ground on this. I love that that you can
Speaker 1: give a reason, but that's not the same thing as
Speaker 1: explaining makes a lot of sense. All right, we are
Speaker 1: near the end of our time. But I want to
Speaker 1: end with one last line that you had that I
Speaker 1: thought was really really good, which was if an ultimatum
Speaker 1: is issued and not adhered to, it's a threat. People
Speaker 1: don't respect threats, but they can learn to respect ultimatum.
Speaker 1: I thought that was really really well said. They can
Speaker 1: learn to respect ultimatums. Yeah, I think ultimatums get a
Speaker 1: bad rap because what we're used to say is not
Speaker 1: actually an ultimatum. We're used the same threats labeled as
Speaker 1: automatums if you do this and this, and then they
Speaker 1: do it and nothing happens. Um, it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: actually a parenting technique to say when we get home,
Speaker 1: you're going to do to do it, and then when
Speaker 1: we get home they get to do whatever they were
Speaker 1: going to do. Anyway. UM. I sometimes use that strategy. Uh,
Speaker 1: but I think it's one of those things that we've
Speaker 1: gotten so used to not following through because we really
Speaker 1: don't like the consequence we issue this, you know, big
Speaker 1: grand consequence when you get home no one's watching TV.
Speaker 1: Well that means I'm on punishment too. I don't want
Speaker 1: to be on punishment, So so I'm going to know.
Speaker 1: I'm going to let go of this thing. If you
Speaker 1: don't do this by this date, you will have to
Speaker 1: leave or whatever it is. It's like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: want you to leave. So sometimes we go into it
Speaker 1: with this big thing that we can't even honor, and
Speaker 1: so it's really helpful to think about what can you
Speaker 1: actually do. It doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be if you don't do this and I
Speaker 1: will end the relationship. It could be I will not
Speaker 1: help you pay your bills anymore if you're not actively
Speaker 1: looking for a job or I will not be able
Speaker 1: to help you with blank if you continue to do this.
Speaker 1: Once you start to yale, I will walk away from
Speaker 1: the situation and try to come back to you once
Speaker 1: I think you're calm, you know, giving people something that
Speaker 1: you can actually do and not a threat, but something
Speaker 1: that you're intentional about. I love that idea. I think
Speaker 1: that's a great place for us to wrap up. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. We're taking the time to come on.
Speaker 1: The book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, a Guide
Speaker 1: to reclaiming Yourself, and I really appreciate you taking the
Speaker 1: time to talk with me and with our listeners. Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. If what you just heard was
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