WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 20 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.120 Unplot Now. It really is a dream come true to 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:07.520 get paid to talk about history without all the stress, 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:09.639 while still being able to make a living, And I 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.400 did it with Spreaker from my Heart. Not only did 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:14.800 they make it super easy to monetize my podcast, but 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.520 at revenue is three to four times higher with Spreaker 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.880 than with any other host I've worked with. So if 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.639 you want to turn your passion into a podcast and 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.919 give this a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's sp 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.600 r e a k e er dot com. Get paid 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.640 to talk about the things you love. I'm j Calburn, 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.000 host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.040 lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.159 and even helped a hit man walk free until one 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.440 day when he started talking with the FBI and promised 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.479 that he could take the mob down. I've spent the 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.960 past year trying to figure out why he flipped and 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.840 what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.960 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:03.520 get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to our show. I'm 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.040 Zoe Deschanel and I'm so excited to be joined by 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.680 my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar and 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.520 Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl. Join 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.440 us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.880 where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.600 New Girl episodes. Each week, we answer all your burnie 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.680 questions like is there really a bear in every episode 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.640 of New Girl? Plus you'll hear hilarious stories like this 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:28.759 that was one of your things you brought back from 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:37.839 yea all professional basketball players. Yeah, listen to the Welcome 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:40.240 to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:45.080 Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.120 Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.840 This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.640 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.960 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.400 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.520 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gotta 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.600 be nothing new here for you, but you can make 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:16.080 your own decisions. What a all right? The show started, Garrison. Hey, 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:22.280 we're gonna be talking about Canada again, so yeah, um 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:27.760 and to discuss Canada and politics and the happenings here. 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.400 We have another journalist who writes for I Believe Anti 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.840 Hate Canada and like the Canadian Anti Hate Network and 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.960 also Vice. I Believe Right, I've written for Vice. I'm 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:45.720 currently researching full time and extremism researcher for It's a 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.880 new initiative called the Online Hate Research and Education Project. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.640 It's actually partnered with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.760 it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center, which 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.840 might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited for 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:00.520 you guys to get into a twit their fight with 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:08.560 James Lindsay. I can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.120 joined us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.880 few messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.359 in Alberta called me a few days ago to talk 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.720 about this thing that's happening. So it's been it's it's 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.960 I'm getting a lot of things, and it's definitely worth discussing, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.560 specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.600 around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.680 it to Dan to talk about what like how did 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:37.320 this thing, like what is it? And how did it 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:42.480 kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.680 by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.840 person's mother in the entire country is called using about it. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:55.240 I just got another message literally right now, like literally 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.560 this second. It's gonna nothing. Moms of Canada have been activated. 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.920 Moms in Canada, I've been activated, but not in exactly 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.040 the same way that they're being perceived to be. So 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.440 the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I might get into 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.160 a little bit later, but I'm kind of like against 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.239 even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah. It was started 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:24.600 on January and by a former Wigsit party now called 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.600 the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and a group of 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.640 like very active far right grassroots protesters. You do a 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.640 lot of organizing like this, uh, and most of them, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.800 most of their activities kind of go back to tea. Yeah, 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.880 they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah, like this, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.960 I mean there's links to people that have been doing 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.800 it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now, but 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.279 a non binding motion against U I think it's a 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.359 M three. A few years ago really mobilized people, and 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.120 it's kind of been more consistent since then of the 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.479 same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.560 about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.200 we got to that point and now like those same 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.360 people are still kind of behind what's going on right now. 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.560 So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.520 the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um and 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.839 Canada a truckers and so this thing was kind of 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.479 originally organized by some like known far right figures and 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.320 the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.480 kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.120 just morphed, right, morphed into a very strong anti vax 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.880 of presence in Canada right now, the antibacks movements getting 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.200 a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run by 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:40.839 these guys who were doing we Exit, which is like 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.000 West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.280 Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.800 of Canada's too liberal. Um, so we Exit and the 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.200 Elves have really changed all of their focuses into this 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.760 anti vax thing as a way to do recruiting, and 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.279 they've prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.840 Ottawa UM for few specific reasons, which I think Dan 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.839 probably knows a little bit more about than I do. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.320 Like I I know the gist of it, but you've 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.760 been focused on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.200 I guess the main reason is it works um like 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.240 just from the perspective of getting attention and being able 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.440 to get a message out. UM. There's been a lot 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.839 of traction on this that these scripts don't normally get. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:26.599 I think the last trucker convoy UM that was done 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.400 under this sort of umbrella, it had like nine I 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.840 think was the total amount of like trucks that made 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.159 it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.320 be done and it was basically the same demands and 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:41.719 the same reasons. So this one was started on January 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.760 and it didn't get that much fuzz the first couple 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.040 of days. The original goal was set at a hundred 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.039 thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.080 it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.159 million pretty fast. In ways that like these fundraisers really 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.359 really don't. Like the last big one we saw in 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.120 Canada that was quite alarm me in that fast cap 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:05.360 out under four thousand dollars and that was um for 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:11.080 a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests last 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.040 year and uh ended up getting like all it's it's 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:15.880 a bad door shut down. So there's a lot more 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.440 money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.320 which was supposed to go like hand in hand with 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.720 these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.960 they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.480 not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.760 Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:35.800 thing because they're saying that they were not going to 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:37.480 do our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:42.880 access to these roads um until this mandate is is removed. Now. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.480 Of course, the funny thing here is that the mandate 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.800 that to enter to not being allowed to enter the 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.120 States to do your trucking roads, that's not a mandate 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.200 by Canada that's done, but that like that's the rule 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.760 in the United States because you're entering the United States. 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.360 They're the States is actually the ones to being the 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.440 block edge. The government has no control over this. Yeah, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.560 it's not like it's not actually the thick. The way 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.320 to get the message out and support is incredibly effective 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.440 because something I think like percent there was a survey 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.840 recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.000 really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.480 kind of get that like support and like a lot 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.880 of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting. 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.800 It starts with four chain of tea, but it's getting 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.720 revived a lot again now of people posting like empty 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.080 grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently posted 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.840 an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails to 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.560 try to like change the laws, it turned out to 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.320 be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.360 And there's been like even like the stores themselves have 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.040 had to come out and make statements being like we're 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.960 not we're not empty. We have we have like we 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.640 are in the process if we restocking. That's up in 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.320 the US to where it's like we're literally emptying that 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.960 shelf to move stuff from storms. We've had really bad 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.520 snowstorms for a lot of the real photos of like 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.760 empty shelves and it's just like, oh no, the salads 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.480 tap out and the store just make a statement. It's like, yeah, 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.000 we had two snowstorms a day in a row on 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.400 our truck. But like the narrative that they're trying to 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.480 push is like these these mandates are causing these shortages 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.400 um and and the propaganda is working even though it's 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.199 all on a false premise, because first of all, it's 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.720 not like that that those aren't that that's not causting 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.880 that the second of all, complainingly to Canada's that's not 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.800 Canada's not the one who's making the restrictions and the 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.599 States are the one that's that's blocking from doing this. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.960 But but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.360 that's not the reason why you're getting all these people 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.280 driving to Ottawa because there is a lot of people. 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.360 There's not many trucks, but but there is there is 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.160 a decent amount of people. You know, it's that that 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.199 are that are going this because it's not it's not 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.640 actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:01.520 seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.040 has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.200 the fundraisers what like like like over six million dollars now, um. 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.320 And it's it's not like it's just what it actually 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.599 is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.120 to the capital and cause problems, right. That that's what 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.959 they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.840 for a lot of a lot of the like explaining 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.960 why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.719 like have been put out and they would be even 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.640 more confusing like to read than like some of them 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:35.600 are there. A couple of the most recent ones are 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.760 just very general like stop this divisive nature that our 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.000 government is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.400 it's it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sangital 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.320 groups involved. One they say they won't leave until Trudeau 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.520 steps down. Others say at one point said until every 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.440 politician stopped down, stepped down. I think that was when 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.240 before someone kind of pushed in more realisticals into the movement. 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.440 But like in terms of like what they're talking about, 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.480 for like the rhetoric surrounding it. We're seeing a lot 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.880 of rhetoric around the sentence being like we this can 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.640 be our version of January six, but like they're saying 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.160 that like in a good way, like that's that's the 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.160 thing that at least some of the organizers, And then 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.199 it's being carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.120 that this this should be our own version of this, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.880 which is which is interesting on a few ways, but 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.599 like also like this would not have been said like 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.120 seven months ago, but it's being said now, which means 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.160 like there's been a shift in how January six is 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.800 being viewed. There was this initial like really distancing and 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:42.880 now it's like it's becoming almost like more acceptable to 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.320 acknowledge that it was maybe a good thing in your eyes. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.280 And it's like that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.240 been going on. But then it's also concerning on just 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.040 like a regular level to be like, yeah, these people 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:54.880 wanted these people are saying they want to do their 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.679 own January six. That has obviously physical implications for all 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.040 these people trying to drive to Ottawa do either blocking 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.680 off roads or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.480 a coast streamer or a streamer in what's called the 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.720 Plaid Army, and now that's sometimes kind of just being 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.959 rebranded as like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.040 get into more, but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.400 they're they're kind of their own, they're their own issue 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.000 for later. Yeah, they're their own issue. But it was 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.880 one of their streamers who is very tangently connected to 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.120 like a lot of the the far right people that 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.040 are involved in this protest movement leaning up to and 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.839 in fact Pat King, who was officially one of the 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.199 organizers of the convoy until he wasn't and then he 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.480 was again. That was a whole dramatic thing for a day, 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.000 like he streamed alongside Plaid Army guys before. Um so 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.160 someone on Plaid Army said, and I would quote I 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.720 would like to see our own January six event, see 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.400 some of those truckers plow right through that sixteen football 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.960 and on January that was put up on CTV News 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:02.800 made Alive, and it's kind of scared a lot of people. 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.680 I think. At that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.480 had already voiced support for the convoy there's been a 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.480 lot of other like members of Parliament stuff voicing support 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.120 for the convoy. Uh, some of whom really didn't seem 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.559 to know like what was involved and really just kind 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.040 of heard Tenant like in passing, Oh it's against these 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.839 mandates and I opposed these mandates too, and it's like, 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:26.839 if I think it's the true DEALU base well, side on, 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:31.600 it's gonna help you. You're gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:37.199 it's completely true. So have they actually started like blocking 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:38.960 roads or is it just a bunch of random people 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.400 driving down to like driving So there's there's a few 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.320 differently converging points of the convoy. I think I would 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.719 say probably the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.559 to kind of keep track. Uh started in British Columbia 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.520 and it's going So for this, I'm sure not everyone 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.480 knows like math for Canada. So like here, just Columbia's 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.199 like our west coast. That's our our California. UM, and 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.040 Ottawa is it's close to the west and it's in Ontario, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.599 but it's on the border of Quebec and Ontario, and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.880 that's where our parliament is. That's our capital city. So 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.480 it's coming from every which way, but I think the 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.480 largest contingent comes from British Columbia and it just basically 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:22.160 goes eastward to Ottawa, picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.640 it's it's it's, it's it's heading in that direction. Um, 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.000 how do we know about I know some people have 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.520 kind of already some people have kind of already sort 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.480 of arrived in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.280 to more arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.560 this Thursday night, so this episode will probably come out 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.040 on Monday. Um, people are expected to arrive on Saturday 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.600 is the day that next. People are expecting like everybody 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.520 to be there at least have an understanding of it. 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.280 The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um, there are people like 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.840 coming from further east who are like staying overnight in 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.080 town and kind of just showing up the Parliament events. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.880 So like, by by all accounts, the Parliament show will 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.160 probably be a lot bigger than the so far. Yeah, 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.560 I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet, numbers nor like 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.600 what what they actually really plan on doing once they 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.360 get there, because it's been so much talking about like 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.240 why this got started. And what's the like driving motivational factors? Yeah, 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.520 like their their goal is to get to a place 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.800 and do a thing, and and that's the Yeah, the 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.000 thing is that's it's mostly unclear. And I have seen 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.520 discussions about like blocking on like doing like trying to 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.920 assemble like a trucking strike. Um, and then like blocking 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.480 off accesses so that the government is forced to obey 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.880 their demands or else like the country will shut down. UM. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.000 Then some people maybe are just kind of doing it 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.120 as a one day protest. It's it's it again, it 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.960 is it is. It is pretty unclear, but people are 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.840 headed to their UM, what what is the what is 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.120 the numbers? At least from where we can see like 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.640 online and stuff. So their numbers have been the number 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:05.360 of trucks. Yeah, fifty people became fifty trucks very quickly. UM. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.000 And that same number I think Rogan repeated it, I know, 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.440 said yeah, yeah, Joe Rogan said it. THEO Fleury one 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.400 on Laura Ingram and repeated the fifty thousand number. He said, 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:19.520 fifty thousand truckers, not trucks specifically. UM. As far as 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.400 I know, THEO Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.520 it's just a fan and it is just repeating some 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.080 numbers that like organizes themselves have kind of echoed. Um. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.400 This is also complicated for me because this is very 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.240 troubling in a lot of ways. But also I'm a 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.840 huge fan of the song Convoy, so this is really devastating. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.560 Please continue, It's all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.600 protest movement has kind of happened doing this in February 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.480 of Kelly and Farcas, who's like a mainstay of the 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.280 anti mask, anti VAXX movement. Uh. And in between when 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.480 I'm talking about and right now actually dated Pat King 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.400 for a while, who's kind of the most uh outspoken 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.520 person organizing the current convoy claimed that a hundred thousand 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.879 people were coming to Parliament for what was then like 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.720 an anti mask demonstration. Before the event, data will look 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.520 changed to fifty uh. And I was actually there, it 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.840 looked closer to like two people. I had friends that 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.440 had counted like hundreds and seventy people, so not quite 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.760 fifty uh. For all intents and purposes, the current one 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.600 will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism along the way 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.040 have estimated up to like four hundred people so far, um, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.600 including I think fifteen trucks outside the bass Pro shop 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:40.040 in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted. Side note, if 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.080 nothing else, got to give them points for stopping at 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.359 bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty sweet bas Pro. 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:46.840 Do you love a good bass Pro shop? My favorite 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.800 is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah, obvious, Nashville, baby, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.679 So the bass Pro in Toronto, if you're ever in town, Robert, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:57.639 it's the only place around that I've been told that 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.760 sells sub sonic twenty two rounds. So if you're like 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.320 in the woods, so I feel like in the woods, 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.159 but like you don't want to like scare your neighbors 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.399 because the woods aren't bad. Big Yeah. I used to 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:10.359 have some friends and I used to go shooting in 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:16.320 a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical. Don't don't 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:22.480 do that. Definitely it was there was it was legal, 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.679 Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not. I don't endorse them, 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.800 might have. Might have to cut this part out for 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.920 regional sharing. Go leave this all late, just a bunch 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:40.000 of words, make it nonsense with bleeping please continue. Yeah, 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:45.520 so only fifteen trucks were counted by CBC at that point. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.680 Um and like videos and stuff have been right, Yeah, yeah, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.480 there might be a couple dozen slightly short. But I 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.920 think by the time Bobby Saturday, I think there's a 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.719 decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.560 to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.960 five hundred, all of the media footage will look like 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.920 there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.960 be able to show the extent of them realistically. And 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:13.880 then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.440 to do. Some people just want to do the function 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.640 up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.440 of like what the most of the anti like vacs 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.879 anti mask protests in Canada have been, which have been 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.200 pretty big, But it's been it's been, it's been mostly 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.480 standing with signs. UM so it is it is it? 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.520 It is really unclear because again, most of the truckers 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.640 in Canada probably are not going to be there nor 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:41.320 to necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.040 because they're pressing the their their whole initial issue is 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.119 not even based on an actual like thing. So it 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:49.960 is I'm not sure how many people are really gonna 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:51.440 show up because I don't know even how specific it 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.800 is to an issue. UM one. One just really interesting, funny, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.760 interesting thing that I thought about is like with with 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.119 some of these people you know talking about you know, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.760 going to Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.879 dropped with the entire government resigns. Like these people who 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.080 are talking about this like block engine shortage and stuff 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.320 are also like the same people who get very angry 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.640 and Indigenous people for blocking off roads and trails um 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.960 for like oil and pipeline protests. A lot of them, yeah, 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.280 some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:27.160 and stuff like pat King. Back in September, Um kind 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.280 of went on like a kick where he just let 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.280 a lot of people believe he was Indigenous and claimed 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.119 someone not correct them that is that is weird, and 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.720 a family member of him went on Facebook and like 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.760 bombarded people with information that he was not in fact Indigenous, 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.080 and it was all very weird and a lot of 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.639 people held them to comments in the past where he 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:53.720 talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.800 that is. I think Pat pat King probably deserves his 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.200 own little deep dive on one of the pods. But 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.560 but yeah, like it's it is like with all the 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.840 people talking about blockheads and stuff all you most of 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.719 them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.840 it is. It is uh yeah, like you're you're talking 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.600 about all these things and like there's really big pro 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.840 oil sentiments and all of the in all of this 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.040 crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.760 and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.399 been more like a symbol to just represent their general 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.480 kind of upsettedness at the way at the way things 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.239 are going for them. It's interesting to me. So when 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.520 I first heard about this, my I was I was like, oh, okay, 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.840 so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers and 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:41.320 I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.800 it's like it's interesting to me, like how few people 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.600 they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:54.000 large number of truckers like that. It's get Yeah, it 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.879 looks like a lot of like vehicles when you when 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:01.080 you see like footage photos and videos like like in 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.280 I'm gonna like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.560 groups of just people just like sharing pictures and photos 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.800 of the rally of the convoy passing through their talent 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.560 and like it's like what Robert said, like it's here 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:13.639 when it fills up both sides of the camera and 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.240 you have a wide depth of field, it looks huge 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.000 and it's it's really hard to count. Uh. The money 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.719 is preposterous. Also, side note on on the money um 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.320 The funds were frozen a few days ago on the 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.960 twenty five, but today one million dollars was released back 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.200 to them because they gave go fund me a pretty 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.159 clear plan allegedly according to go fund me for for 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.720 how they're gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:40.480 it's I think it's like six point seven million now, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.159 so the rest of the five point seven million I 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.080 think is still frozen. Okay, well it is. It is, 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.639 so it is so much money. Uh yeah, we should 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:53.080 do something like that. They could They could actually buy 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.920 truck nuts for a dred and fifty thousand truckers, which 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.520 is the most I've seen them. Guests, truckers are coming. 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.360 They could buy it all or truck nets off Amazon 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:03.760 for all of them and still have the vast majority 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:05.720 of their funds left over. Yeah, but see that would 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.320 be an act of actual heroism, and they're not going 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:10.720 to do that. The reason why I wanted to talk 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.320 about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.080 acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.879 to go into an urban area and block off like 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.360 trade routes essentially, um. And then I wanted to talk 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.359 about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.240 the fact that this is happening is divorced from any 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.320 kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.359 is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.400 just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.800 or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen. 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:44.600 And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:49.880 like coherent um. And then escalation people driving here doing 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.840 this thing. And then I know there was this one interview, 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:55.720 um I forgot on what news channel, but they interviewed 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.119 this one trucker guy part of a part of this 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.800 con part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:08.160 Um and he's he said, um, I advocate civil war. 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.280 If people don't want to step up, we have guns, 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.160 will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out. 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:17.920 But like, so that's the quotes, like in the fact 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:20.720 that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.760 relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.320 here is being like people fantasize about Canada's being a 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:28.920 place to escape, you know, like Canada is like the 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:31.560 other from the States, and like, no, it's the same, 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.800 Like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism. 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.479 There is no really there's no real away right now 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.720 in terms of there's no safe ground. It can spread 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:44.120 to where you are and for people living in Canada. 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.719 When you have people on the news on like Global 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:50.119 News saying I advocate civil war within the context of 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.720 this of this like, um, you know, convoy movement, it 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:56.960 is it is an actual thing worth paying attention to. 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:00.520 It is an actual problem of it's it's huge and 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:03.240 earlier today and I might pronounce his name on but 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:08.080 Dale Manuk, doc from CBC Toronto, tweeted a story because 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:13.480 he on behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:16.280 the convoy. They have different regional organizers and and their 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:19.560 website list them all um and it had Patking funny 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:21.560 side dot it had pack King listed as an organizer 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.399 while they're go fund me had a statement saying they 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:28.200 had no connection to him, which was very funny. But yeah, 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:32.360 So CBC Toronto contacted them and the guy responded, enough 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.600 lies you quote slate blooded trader. Evil will get its 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:40.040 due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah, 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:45.080 after it, back, yeah, after it, back and forth, very 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:48.000 brief back and forth. Uh, and just like a couple 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:51.960 of questions. Uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:54.560 toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:56.600 under the guys of public health. You can't be that 0:25:56.800 --> 0:26:02.680 dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy. Yeah. I 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:06.040 do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:08.399 vacks movement is tied to far right politics with in 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:12.000 Canada and it's like been like the driving force of 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.400 far right politics for the past two years and it's 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.399 gotten so much larger. Um. It is like it is, 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:20.480 it is. It is a thing like when when you 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:23.040 have when you have people on camera saying we want 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:26.440 to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:29.840 not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped, 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:34.000 and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah, 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:36.280 like it's it is. It is a thing that could 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:38.359 happen there, And that's kind of why I wanted to 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:40.960 talk about it. Is like, yeah, when I have my 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:46.119 mother calling me dozens of messages from random people like 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:48.879 worried about this, then yeah, it's it is an issue, 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:54.680 like I've it's it's it's not it's not not a thing. O. 0:26:56.640 --> 0:27:02.600 The rhetoric is so universal against uh anyone they perceived 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.520 to be leftist too, that it is really dangerous. Like 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:07.400 there's been a little bit of talk of like counters 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:11.639 in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are this big, like 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:15.159 there's no safe weight for people to to stop that 0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:17.240 sort of thing, especially when all all the vehicles are 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:20.560 on that side. Like it's a it's dangerous. There's a 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:24.320 lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like I was 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.280 looking today the People's Party of Canada's they got like 0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:30.240 five percent of votes in our last selection. They had 0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:32.879 a little bit of a scandal, uh during our election, 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:36.760 which is at the end of last year. Um, where 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:42.720 a writing director for I think it's am. It's the 0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:46.840 great area of London. It is Elgin, Middle six, London, 0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:50.000 so they're they're writing directors and not their member of 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:54.959 parliament writing. Um was revealed to uh post like sculpt 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.720 mask not tea memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader 0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:00.600 of his own party, to Hitlert, so like probably not 0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:05.080 a negative comparison, Um, And he was not fired for it, 0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:07.720 but he was fired after it came out that he 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:13.200 was being charged for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah. 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.200 He actually, he recently said on a live stream he 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:18.960 was asked he was currently on trial and he said yeah, 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:22.560 I mean as far as I know, Like he's been 0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:25.720 posting images of like trucks running people over and that's 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.840 just like one connection to h to the legitimacy of 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:33.720 it all, Um, Like you, I mean the plat army guys, 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:37.440 the ones who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet, 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:41.720 they're also connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.600 their podcast before, who's a sitting politician and a member 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:46.480 of provincial parliament, which is kind of like our state 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:52.000 senate equivalent. Over here. Um, they've they've had him on 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:55.080 and like there there's some like legitimacy to it, um 0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:57.840 getting on and when you just talk about the broad 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:02.680 movement in general. Former Conservative Party of Canada leader Andrew Shear, 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.600 who had kind of a rocky departure from the party 0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:11.040 because he alleged leaves campaign funds to pay for his 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:14.040 kids private school. So I not like he had already 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:17.480 signed on and endorsed and been interviewed. Erin O'Toole, the 0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:23.560 current leader of the of the Conservative Party ah just 0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:27.160 today actually h said he was going to engage with them. 0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:30.880 Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packrins McDonald sent an 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:34.560 email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker convoy protests 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.480 and quoting Justin Link's twitter here, there have been attempts 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:40.440 to collect mpeas home addresses. As such, the Sergeant at 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.560 Arms is advising to avoid the rally and go somewhere safe. 0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:49.600 That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole, who said I'm 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:53.960 gonna do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted later tomorrow, 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:56.280 I will be meeting with truckers. A tool announces right 0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.680 after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the pro us entirely. 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:04.600 So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:07.160 probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:10.520 about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean, 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:14.080 they showed up, they protest, and they conticipated if we're 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:16.240 following this up in a few days with another episode, 0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:21.360 that that be something bad happen. But again, even even 0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:23.000 at this point, it is still worth talking about in 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:26.520 terms of like the generally like this is like this 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:28.920 is the kind of like the net of why this 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:31.960 is so important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like, 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.440 when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:39.120 from an outside and moving into a city, there's very 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.160 little that can be done against them. Um, like, there's 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.920 not there's not really much of an effective counter other 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:47.160 than trying to get another massive people in cars to 0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:51.640 confront them, and that's, um, you know, a potentially dicey situation. 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:54.280 So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:56.520 used all over the United States too, like, and it's 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:01.360 this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:03.880 is kind of the earliest step in taking that is 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:06.480 is this is gonna be the last time people try 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.880 to extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:14.160 of the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and 0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:17.800 like applicable nous as like an act of like an 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:21.760 act of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency, 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:24.360 whatever whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because 0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:26.560 like a lot of these other interesting thing about the 0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:29.480 States compared to Canada is like the States we have 0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:31.840 like we have like an actual like far right movement, 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:34.760 like we have like we have like conservatives, when then 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:37.680 we have like the far right movement in Canada. That 0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:39.840 that distinction is not much of a thing. A lot 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.800 of a lot of there is. There is some far 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:45.520 right figures trying to push stuff forward, absolutely, but a 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:50.400 lot of like the space in between conservative far right 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.600 is kind of a little bit more fluid. Like a 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:56.760 lot of these people who are showing up are not 0:31:56.920 --> 0:31:59.960 like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives, 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:03.360 but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a 0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.440 civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude. 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:08.440 He's not a member of any kind of political thing. 0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:10.960 He's it's like it's that is just that is just 0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:13.840 kind of what this culture on the western side of 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:17.120 Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.040 when when you start going into this kind of like 0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:23.320 anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:26.280 their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:28.040 is what they are. So anything that gets to that 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:30.800 point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.200 like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau, 0:32:33.440 --> 0:32:36.880 then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:39.120 distinction in the state that there's a thing in the 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.600 Canada that I don't really see as much in the States. 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:44.320 It's very familiar to me when you talk about how 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:46.680 anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like 0:32:46.880 --> 0:32:49.640 that that is I think a worthwhile comparison. And because 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.280 there were a lot of American conservatives who could get 0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:55.000 in bed with anybody if they were staying against Hillary 0:32:55.160 --> 0:33:00.480 or Bill um cool stuff. Well, this is all fun. 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.720 I hope to not talk with you about this again, Um, 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:09.120 but there is a chance there is a chance people 0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:12.080 have conversations, um if you wouldn't want to after af 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:15.440 this episode airs, if people want to see what happened, 0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:18.160 right because this this air is probably Monday, um, and 0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:21.440 the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:23.800 find work talking about this, whether that be like your 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.400 Twitter feed or um if you know, if any you 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:30.680 know articles are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM. 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:34.680 I can't make any promises because safety is always a 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:37.720 thing and I won't to know what it looks like 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:41.120 until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My 0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:45.520 Twitter is at spineless L. That's the word spineless and 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:49.960 then just the letter L. So yeah, you can check 0:33:50.040 --> 0:33:51.760 in on his account to see if he has a 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:55.760 thread by the time this episodes out. Um, And yeah, 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:57.640 that's how that's how you can kind of figure out 0:33:57.720 --> 0:33:59.240 what happened if you're just listening to this now and 0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:01.440 then in the time, there'll be a lot of Attawa 0:34:01.520 --> 0:34:04.320 media covering it if you just want to see the fallout. 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:07.760 I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work might talk about 0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:10.040 it more. They put on an article today on it 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:13.040 that that covers more of the kind of problems that 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:14.920 the far right that we talked about today than the 0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:17.920 most other media will go into. They did. Uh, that 0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:20.640 was a very good article. And then also today um 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.880 I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers. 0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:27.960 So just in terms of let's just as as a 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:30.919 good example, I think this situation is a really great 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:34.560 way to start thinking about politics and culture UM and 0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:37.480 how they relate to each other, and how this type 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.520 of thing succeeds and how it succeeds UM and why 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:43.520 this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:47.120 people in Canada and raising six million dollars almost seven 0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:50.160 million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show 0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:55.120 one more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh, 0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:58.359 I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:02.200 at fineless out the word spineless is then I don't 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:04.720 have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter, 0:35:06.080 --> 0:35:12.879 thank you plug your get her account. You're getting wow yeah, 0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:17.080 real real get our user vibes coming off of Dan 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:23.640 the only social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:27.560 and said, Robert's just trying to get me to plug 0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:33.560 my sock puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off. 0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:38.400 You could follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:42.880 dot c a of anyway that is uh that that 0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:47.600 doesn't for our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah, 0:35:48.000 --> 0:36:02.279 convoys Canada Can't Can't Escape excellent. If you're having what 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:06.239 grows in the forest trees? Sure no one else grows 0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:09.960 in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.279 our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from 0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:19.759 this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.360 The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.000 near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org. 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:29.880 Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:33.800 the AD Council. Hi, my name is Cassidy Zachary and 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:38.560 I am April Callahan, and we are fashion historians and 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:41.680 co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed the 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:45.520 History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the significance 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.520 of dress from throughout history and around the world. And 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:50.719 we are so excited to bring you a brand new 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:54.360 season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and explain the history of 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:57.560 everything from coursts to blue jeans. Dressed the History of 0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:01.240 Fashion is available on the I Heart Radio, a Apple Podcast, 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:03.960 or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:09.960 episodes trap every Tuesday and Thursday after thirty years, It's 0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:12.439 time to return to the halls of West Beverly High 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.800 and hang out at the peach pit. On the podcast 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.600 nine O two one o MG joined Jenny Garth and 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.600 Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.000 Hills nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:26.360 we get to tell the fans all of the behind 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:29.040 the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what 0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:32.000 happened on camera, obviously, but we can tell them all 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.080 the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.280 juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:39.799 for decades. As nine O two one oh, super fan 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:42.960 and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory, 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:46.520 two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:50.360 Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have 0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:54.600 an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire ten 0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:58.160 years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:00.960 nothing of the ten years that we feel that show. 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:03.759 Listen to nine O two one o MG on the 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:06.560 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:19.040 your podcasts. It's the New Year's again. Whoa. Yeah, welcome, 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:22.280 Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:27.160 special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here, 0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:31.399 a podcast that he is today just about well, it's 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:34.520 still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt. 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:37.960 But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it 0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:40.920 do it? Do a special luniar Year's episode and spend 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:44.439 some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and how 0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:47.800 what sort of being a part of the Chinese diaspora 0:38:48.680 --> 0:38:50.759 in sort of in the US and Canada is like, 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.040 and you know how how that how the influence is, 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:56.600 how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what 0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:00.520 we're sort of proud of? Um. And with me to 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:04.080 talk about this, we have j n who I think 0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:07.239 first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:11.680 works with claus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor. 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.479 Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming. 0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:18.919 And we also have Jane She who is a queer 0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:22.480 Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:28.759 Bisquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what is 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:34.440 falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor, 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:37.680 and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, Welcome, 0:39:37.719 --> 0:39:41.440 Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. 0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:47.040 Um just wanted to share that it's Muscuiam squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry. 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:51.320 I Fortunately I do not live up north and so 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:55.399 my my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:59.279 they are for the tribal dames that are around me. 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:06.480 So my apologies. No where is nowhere. So al right, 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:08.800 before we get into a bunch of extremely grim stuff, 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.080 I wanted to because this is the this if you 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:13.239 will be listening to well, okay, unless listening to this 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:18.439 on Monday night, in which case, uh, congratulations on beating time. 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:21.720 But most of your probably gonna listen to me listening 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:24.360 to this on on lunar New Years, and so I 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.800 wanted to before yeah, before everythink it's completely dark. I 0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:29.319 want you to know what you choose favorite Chinese New 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:33.360 Year's food is because this is like my favorite holiday 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:37.800 and it's basically my favorite holiday because in Grand Chinese tradition, 0:40:37.840 --> 0:40:40.239 it's just an excuse to eat a lot. So yeah, 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.439 opening the floor up. Yeah, I think you're the expert here, Jane, 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:48.520 so feel free to I am not laid on the knowledge. 0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:56.080 I am not an expert. Just because I fault dumplings 0:40:56.160 --> 0:41:00.360 does not mean I'm a ne expert. But I I 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:06.959 mean I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:10.480 that many other people in a very long time, so 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:15.399 my sense of like breath of food has really really 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:21.960 narrowed to what is available to me. Um. And I 0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:26.080 also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:30.200 been making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:36.359 been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep 0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:40.080 thinking about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the 0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:46.279 sesame anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:51.400 boiled dumplings I feel like are really great for me 0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:57.080 at this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh. In Cantonese, 0:41:57.120 --> 0:41:59.680 it's called me and go, which is it's a comment 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:07.759 really yes, um. And the way my mom used to 0:42:07.800 --> 0:42:09.800 make it all the time was like dipping it in 0:42:10.200 --> 0:42:14.000 an egg first, um, And so it has this kind 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:16.960 of like eggy crust on it, which is really really awesome. 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:19.600 And I've been making that for the past couple of 0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:23.040 years myself where I am, and I can't wait to 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:26.520 go to the grocery store and grab some because it's 0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:29.560 only available around this time. I guess they don't really 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.560 produce it any other time. And last time I went 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:34.879 to visit my mom, she like loaded my suitcase full 0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:38.239 of them and that was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately, 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:40.800 and some of them went fast. Oh no, we have 0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:44.719 we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's I 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.600 think it's it was in the freezer. It's now, I 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:50.520 think in the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:53.640 into it on New Year's Yeah, do you do? You 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:56.839 guys do the because I know so we we only 0:42:56.920 --> 0:42:59.920 have red bean ones. I know there's like brown sugar one. 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.000 Is there something that are like plane wait? I just 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:08.080 wanted to check, like is it nanal? Yeah? Or at 0:43:08.160 --> 0:43:12.360 least so like the sort of like flower thing that 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:19.160 is like shaped like a semicircle. Yeah wait, yeah, I 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:23.160 feel like there's different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them 0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:25.840 into like like square strips, but I think that's just 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:31.239 like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, And it 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.759 usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah, 0:43:36.360 --> 0:43:39.480 when it's packaged. That's so interesting because I feel like 0:43:40.000 --> 0:43:44.040 the nanoal that I grew up with doesn't usually have 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:46.279 a lot of things on it. It's kind of like 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:50.880 sticky and kind of plane and I'm just this is 0:43:51.120 --> 0:43:55.759 this is a new thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, the 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.120 ones we usually get just has red beans in it, 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:00.680 and then there's like the one date on the top. Oh, 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:02.960 I don't know if you're thinking of like towning Go, 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:06.279 which is like a different type of dish um where 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:08.520 it's like white rice cakes and then you you can 0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:13.040 like it's like saucy and then yeah, like different ingredients 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.120 in it. Yeah, I think it's a different Ours are 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:19.439 just that they're like they're they're pretty close to the Yeah, 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:21.360 I think I think I'm just talking about the just 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:26.879 regularly and golic. They're just like like they're they're they're 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:30.200 they're basically plain, but there's some red being like cirta 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.800 into the dough and then it's just like the flat 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:40.480 brown thing that you like fry. Yeah, all right, this 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:47.120 is we've now done dessert chat. I would honest honestly 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.480 much much less grim time than most of the stuff 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:52.200 that happens on here. And you've all been now subjected 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:54.839 to it. I go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great. 0:44:55.600 --> 0:45:01.080 Ah yeah. So on two things that are somewhat more 0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:06.960 grim Um, I think there's there's two big things I 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:10.840 wanted to talk about that sort of related to, like 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:21.200 I guess Chinese diaspora, nous um. I guess we can 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:26.480 start with talking a bit about anti Asian violence and 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:31.520 police violence, because I mean it's not like so my 0:45:31.680 --> 0:45:36.280 sort of into this is that my my someone Okay. 0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:39.840 So one of the things that's happened in the past 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:43.279 about two years was this the huge sort of spike 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:46.440 and anti Asian violence. But then you know, part of 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:51.040 what happens politically around that was there was a huge 0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:54.360 attempt to essentially turn anti Asian violence, is you, I 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:57.200 guess like the anti BLM, like especially in the US, 0:45:57.280 --> 0:45:59.839 But I think I think this happened elsewhere too, where 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:04.239 there reserves it didn't I don't know, it worked in 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.279 some places and didn't work in other places. So I 0:46:07.400 --> 0:46:10.640 went to the research Chicago and a few is it 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:12.120 a few months ago, now maybe it's a couple of 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:16.360 a month that you ago a Asian Chinese international student 0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:19.680 like got shot on campus and this turned into a 0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:24.200 huge sort of like bring more cops on campus that 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:26.000 there was a huge petition that got signed. It was 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:29.440 that people were like asking for security cameras and asking 0:46:29.480 --> 0:46:31.120 for our cops, and like the u c p D 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.759 like a couple of weeks later just like shot a dude. 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:37.480 And so that there there's been I've been seeing this 0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:39.160 tension a lot. I was worrying a f YouTube had 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:41.480 also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts, 0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:46.720 We're on it. UM. I mean, I feel like, unfortunately 0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:50.960 with Canada, there's like this dynamic where we look to 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:59.040 the States for news and validation and this weird way 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:05.759 that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:13.120 here that are different. UM. There are there's a different 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:18.320 kind of police system. There's like the local police like 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:23.840 Vancouver Police Apartment UM. But then there's also the RCMP, 0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:29.360 the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, which are in other the municipalities. 0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:36.040 And the RCMP was created specifically UM as a tool 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:44.080 of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is UM, 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:47.840 I guess the most succinctly way I can put it 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:57.520 as segregation UM of Indigenous peoples from settlers, and there's 0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:03.360 a lot of displacement of black communities across Canada. But 0:48:03.600 --> 0:48:06.160 and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:12.239 like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background, 0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:18.040 I guess um and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's 0:48:18.160 --> 0:48:23.880 in what's written territories or just the police killing people. 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:30.920 There's a lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian 0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:37.200 institutions that are very very much complicit in the system. 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:42.960 Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:47.360 in Vancouver who one of the board members is a 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:56.560 cop who is married to a a city councilor. And 0:48:57.920 --> 0:49:03.600 a lot of the discourse at institutions not people themselves necessarily, 0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:08.759 but institutions create around for example, the revitalization of Chinatown 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:13.560 or the preservation of culture is around Oh there's graffiti 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:17.200 in the neighborhood Chinatown and mancouver Is in the downtown 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:21.680 E Side was just considered, um, the poorest post is 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:25.919 considered the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:31.040 like a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's, 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:38.440 Black people people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM, 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:43.719 wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply, and 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:47.520 where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing 0:49:47.600 --> 0:49:54.239 guns and everyone displacing the tens cities. And so when 0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:57.880 there is an easy and not an easy but just 0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:02.759 like a demon, I a group of people that UM, 0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:07.080 the general public doesn't know enough about UM. If you 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:09.759 walk through the downtowning side and talk to people, you 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:14.120 would talk to people about their experiences with residential school, 0:50:14.239 --> 0:50:20.480 their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty and 0:50:21.160 --> 0:50:24.279 in the in the broadest terms, it's like the way 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:27.920 that try and Town is being gentrified. People tend to 0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:32.239 blame the poor UM. And there's like this divide and 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:38.480 conqueror mentality within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically, 0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:45.759 and so similar to what happened with UM Michelle go 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:50.960 similar to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:55.920 woman who a group of people who lived in the 0:50:55.920 --> 0:51:01.160 intensity had killed pretending to be cops when they knock 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:04.439 on her door, and the county one of the city 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:08.840 councilors UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to 0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:14.759 stop indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:17.960 lot of like marginalized people in these tense cities who 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:23.240 who who can'ts um, who need to live there because 0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:28.120 it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:36.920 like anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate, 0:51:37.280 --> 0:51:41.799 the so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, um, 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:45.880 And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just 0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:48.680 that like the way that the media, the way that 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:57.560 the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon, 0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:03.480 the police the hate crime angle rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah, 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.080 this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like simpler, 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:10.200 It's simpler and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah, 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:12.080 I mean I think that Yeah, I think that tracks. 0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:15.320 I mean the targets are slightly different just based on 0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:17.840 such a snews but on the sort of local context. 0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:19.920 But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.360 what we've been seeing here as I think there's a 0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:28.040 there's another thing that I don't know, So I I 0:52:28.480 --> 0:52:33.320 really don't like the term, like because the did the 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:36.840 Twitter hashtag stop asition hate, Like I hate that framing 0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:39.800 of it as sort of hatred and not racism. But 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:42.560 even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, which 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:46.160 I've been used a lot, I think has problems because 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:48.200 you know, I mean, this is one of the things 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:49.680 you were talking about, one of the things that I've 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:53.880 seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, like 0:52:54.360 --> 0:52:58.880 you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right, 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:02.600 but then there's so just like I mean, one of 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:04.560 the sort of scare things that happened here was it 0:53:04.680 --> 0:53:06.200 was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:08.480 restaur like Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:10.400 everyone was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and 0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:14.120 it's like, well, no, like this is just theft. And 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:16.440 and there there's there's been this sort of like collapsing 0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:22.160 of something bad happens to an Asian person with specifically 0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:26.239 sort of like targeted racist attacks, and I think that's 0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:27.719 been well, I mean, that's been a problem. And there's 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:31.719 also the secondary problem of you know who even who 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:34.200 even gets included in this in the first place. Like 0:53:34.280 --> 0:53:35.960 one of one of the biggest things I've been frustrated 0:53:35.960 --> 0:53:38.800 about is, you know, the sort of the selective inclusion 0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:43.120 of South Asian people like I there there was there 0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:47.640 was a shooting at the fed X facility last year 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:52.520 by a guy who was like very much, very far right, 0:53:53.000 --> 0:53:56.719 kind of like pilled online guy, and it killed a 0:53:56.760 --> 0:54:01.880 bunch of SEAK workers. And there was never there's just nothing, 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:05.400 even like no one talked about is anti ation violence. 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:07.880 But then you know, selectively, you get inclusion to tell 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.080 these Asian people when it's like it's it's it's like 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:17.840 people get folded into being Asian when it's like useful 0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:21.239 to call from war police. But then when it's you know, 0:54:21.520 --> 0:54:23.520 not useful for that, or when it's you know, especially 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:26.239 when it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:28.440 of nothing. And I've been I don't know, I've been 0:54:29.360 --> 0:54:33.839 really frustrated by this dynamic a lot um. Yeah, and Jan, 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:35.239 I want to know what you think about this too, 0:54:35.320 --> 0:54:40.440 because I have no talks slowing enough about Yeah. I mean, 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:43.120 you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:45.800 that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:49.359 supposedly quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:53.239 unquote anti Asian hate stuff. And you know, the only 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:56.880 thing that accomplished. Was it created like some some government 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:01.880 organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes 0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:04.480 and then more funding for the police, right, So I 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:06.600 think it was. It was a very kind of direct impact. 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:11.520 We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:14.439 what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen, 0:55:14.560 --> 0:55:17.480 which is more funny for the police and not making 0:55:17.520 --> 0:55:21.880 communities safer. Right. So, UM, I think the real conendrum 0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:24.360 for me and the thing that really kind of you know, 0:55:24.400 --> 0:55:25.800 I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and 0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:29.560 I get I get kind of frustrated, is um, you know, 0:55:29.600 --> 0:55:33.400 whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:38.719 or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's 0:55:38.800 --> 0:55:41.759 it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I 0:55:42.440 --> 0:55:45.360 agree with it, but you know, the response is always 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:49.520 like the telling folks who have been victimized or those 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:54.759 who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right, 0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:59.560 And you know, I think that's true. But then I 0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:02.520 think one struggling with is how to make this message 0:56:02.600 --> 0:56:07.040 resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's a 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:09.919 way that in some ways that can alienate them even 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:13.839 more and make them even more reaction right, because that's 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:18.680 you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh, 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:23.720 they use further instances of violence to spin that argument 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:25.800 of like when when people say the answer is not 0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:28.640 more cops, it doesn't make a safer the media is 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:31.160 able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working right, 0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:34.279 it's things are actually getting more dangerous all the kind 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:38.399 of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff, 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:41.680 which are usually false anyway. So I think that's what 0:56:41.760 --> 0:56:44.320 I'm trying to figure out now is like, you know, 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:48.319 because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, where 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:52.600 I've done some work, there was community meetings with c 0:56:52.800 --> 0:56:59.960 c D, the Chinatown Committee for Equitable Uh what's what's 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:05.040 destan for? I always forget development. Um. They had some 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:07.440 meetings with community folks to kind of like, you know, 0:57:07.560 --> 0:57:10.880 hear what hear what they wanted to do to address this, 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:15.040 and they kind of like a lot of those organizers had, um, 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:18.800 you know, they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:23.280 more cops is not the answer, and so some of 0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:26.800 the mail they're from the community, but they're not. They 0:57:26.840 --> 0:57:29.800 weren't part of the kind of like senior population of Chinatown, 0:57:30.200 --> 0:57:32.400 which is, you know, it's like low incomes seniors is 0:57:32.680 --> 0:57:34.920 kind of like are the folks that are being pushed 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:39.360 out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well. Um, 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:41.920 some of some men were kind of like, Okay, well 0:57:41.920 --> 0:57:45.800 we should start kind of like armed neighborhood watch um. 0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:50.960 And you know, I think in some way that taps 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:55.120 into this kind of like we protect us type of ethos, right, 0:57:55.200 --> 0:58:00.160 It's it's not relying on a state or government or 0:58:00.400 --> 0:58:05.360 whatever police paramilitary force. Um. But then I think the 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:09.720 question that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um, 0:58:10.400 --> 0:58:13.280 you know, are are these people actually from the community, 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:16.160 and are they actually doing this to address the needs 0:58:16.240 --> 0:58:19.400 of the folks who are most affected by it? Right? 0:58:19.560 --> 0:58:22.640 And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:26.240 idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. Um. 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:29.480 And so there's there's just so many different ways to 0:58:30.040 --> 0:58:33.400 approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:35.720 way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective 0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:40.200 way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:45.240 a really good point, because I feel like in when 0:58:46.760 --> 0:58:56.480 especially UM Asian women, people who experience like various forms 0:58:56.600 --> 0:59:03.760 of sexual violence or UM street harassment. UM that sense 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:10.680 of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:16.680 murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a way, 0:59:16.840 --> 0:59:21.600 it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any 0:59:21.720 --> 0:59:26.360 kind of solution and and also why that kind of 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:33.080 trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately, 0:59:33.320 --> 0:59:37.520 like just because I'm like, who asked for you to 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:42.439 be street crictials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:48.120 the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:51.560 have you talked with all of the seniors, all of 0:59:51.600 --> 0:59:55.479 the elders to ask them, like, how would you feel 0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:58.280 if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from? 1:00:00.280 --> 1:00:05.200 And I think that like the other argument is that 1:00:05.400 --> 1:00:11.120 like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:17.000 though UM policing and mental health systems are very, very 1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:22.720 very connected. UM. Edward Wong has an article about that 1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:27.400 in Upping the Anti And I don't know, I just 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:30.240 think that like there has to be like a way 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:34.400 to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma. And 1:00:34.560 --> 1:00:39.959 invalidating um people survival instincts as well, because I feel 1:00:40.000 --> 1:00:44.200 like UM for years, as someone who's done work in 1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:50.000 the anti violence sector. It's not that I wanted there 1:00:50.040 --> 1:00:52.800 to be more policing. It's just that like a lot 1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:55.360 of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want 1:00:55.520 --> 1:00:59.440 use the court system because this person is dangerous. Like 1:00:59.720 --> 1:01:03.760 that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't just 1:01:03.840 --> 1:01:07.800 go up, no, you're wrong, less cops right, Like that's 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:13.520 that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not a 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:17.560 compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like all 1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:20.720 about yourself and you should like to be talking about 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:24.120 like black and Indigenous people like like like that's that's 1:01:24.160 --> 1:01:27.720 also really insensitive. So it's like I feel like there's 1:01:27.720 --> 1:01:32.120 a way that there there is like a way to 1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:39.680 talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:44.800 or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an 1:01:44.840 --> 1:01:49.840 easy thing because it's not like our communities have had 1:01:50.120 --> 1:01:54.280 a good way to respond to trauma, Like we haven't 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:59.760 really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah, 1:01:59.800 --> 1:02:01.720 and I think this this kind of comes back to 1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:05.880 another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know, 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:10.040 a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is 1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:17.840 about like transitioning things towards community solutions, But like what 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:21.360 is that you know, like, what does that even mean 1:02:21.640 --> 1:02:24.800 when you're dealing with you know this, this is this 1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:26.400 is part of the problem with well, okay, you have 1:02:26.560 --> 1:02:30.920 armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when 1:02:30.960 --> 1:02:32.920 inevitably and this is this is just something that happens 1:02:33.840 --> 1:02:35.480 just you know, this is this is this is the 1:02:35.600 --> 1:02:38.320 nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to 1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:39.840 get a beaters in end. It's like, okay, well what 1:02:39.920 --> 1:02:43.320 happens then? And what happens when you know, like the 1:02:43.360 --> 1:02:45.400 abuses of people inside the community and and this is 1:02:45.440 --> 1:02:51.320 compounded I think by this problem of like what like 1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:55.959 what even you know the I think I think there's 1:02:56.040 --> 1:02:59.120 there's there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian 1:02:59.240 --> 1:03:00.840 nous is and there they brought up and this is 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:03.440 this is also sort of localized problem of like what 1:03:03.720 --> 1:03:09.040 even like is the Chinese community at all? Because you're 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:11.760 dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:13.880 different languages, you're dealing with people who have been in 1:03:14.000 --> 1:03:16.760 these places for you know, some people have been here 1:03:16.800 --> 1:03:19.880 for century, some people who have been here like two months. 1:03:21.200 --> 1:03:24.800 And I think that makes it really difficult in a 1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:29.720 lot of ways to sort of like even even just 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:33.880 bring together something that could be a community. And I know, 1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:35.720 I know what happens, and I know, you know there's 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:39.840 there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities, 1:03:39.880 --> 1:03:46.960 but but I think it makes this harder because there 1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:52.040 isn't a sort of like ready made thing you can 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:55.080 turn to and go, Okay, well, this is how we're going, 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:56.640 like this is the group of people, and this is 1:03:56.720 --> 1:03:59.400 the sort of like social sphere, and this is the 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:00.880 community that going to turn and to to sort of 1:04:01.600 --> 1:04:04.640 deal with this stuff. There's just this kind of a 1:04:04.720 --> 1:04:08.360 bunch of amorphous different groups. And then also you have 1:04:08.480 --> 1:04:11.960 the problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.960 about like political forces nation communities like the Busines associations 1:04:15.000 --> 1:04:19.440 are extremely powerful, and you know, we have different objectives 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:23.880 than they do, but they're also like extremely well organized 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:26.080 in a way that most other sort of like Chinese 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:28.360 groups aren't. I don't know that that's that's that's been 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:32.560 where my thinking has been going on this, Yeah, I think, um, 1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:36.560 this there's some residents with what you're saying and the 1:04:36.640 --> 1:04:40.040 kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind 1:04:40.080 --> 1:04:44.040 of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong despor organizing 1:04:44.920 --> 1:04:47.720 and which I think, you know, there's a lot of 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:53.200 overlap with that same type of like small business organization 1:04:53.320 --> 1:04:58.080 type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America, 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:01.440 which is the case in l A and actually c C. 1:05:01.640 --> 1:05:04.480 He spends a lot of time fighting the small business 1:05:04.720 --> 1:05:09.960 organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM, 1:05:10.080 --> 1:05:14.360 and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:17.600 anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:20.840 there is that that element right where a lot of times, 1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:24.120 you know, you are fighting against people who might have 1:05:24.240 --> 1:05:28.320 to like same heritages for example, UM. And you know, 1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:30.640 for me personally, that's that's very much the case with 1:05:30.800 --> 1:05:33.920 Hong Kant ASPERG groups, right because you know, many of 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:39.800 them are very conservative, are right wing and not only 1:05:40.120 --> 1:05:42.680 just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:47.480 for these kind of you know, these policies and politicians 1:05:47.520 --> 1:05:50.120 and all these different things that I really can't stand 1:05:50.400 --> 1:05:54.400 and I'm aligned against UM. And you know, I think 1:05:54.560 --> 1:05:57.680 it's a lot of folks want to take the kind 1:05:57.680 --> 1:06:00.400 of pregnantist root of like we'll work with you things 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:04.360 that we where we have points of unity, otherwise we don't, 1:06:05.160 --> 1:06:08.120 Whereas you know, I guess some people see me as 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:10.280 as a little bit more rigid in the sense that 1:06:10.440 --> 1:06:12.040 like I don't want to work with these folks at all, 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:17.320 because UM, I see them as kind of themselves as 1:06:17.600 --> 1:06:20.360 as a force that is causing more hard than good, 1:06:21.520 --> 1:06:25.080 especially if with these Hong Kong aspert groups. The usual 1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:27.760 mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we 1:06:27.840 --> 1:06:32.080 do is is serving Hong Kong UM, and that you 1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:36.840 in the desper That usually means kind of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress, 1:06:36.880 --> 1:06:40.200 all those different things, UM. And then kind of like 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:47.040 completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues UM. 1:06:47.520 --> 1:06:50.880 To oversimplify a little bit. So, you know, I think 1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:52.960 that's been on my mind a lot. I know your 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:55.000 question was about Chinese noess, but I guess for me 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:57.760 that that kind of filters a little bit further down 1:06:57.800 --> 1:07:00.400 to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right, Yeah, 1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:10.120 it's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:16.720 ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora 1:07:17.200 --> 1:07:23.720 is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. Um. 1:07:24.120 --> 1:07:29.000 It's like a difficult thing to kind of but but 1:07:29.200 --> 1:07:36.040 your head against because it's like you have your UM diversity, equity, 1:07:36.240 --> 1:07:41.800 inclusion framework of organizing, and then you have the every 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:45.600 day like what what what these frameworks can't simplify, which 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:49.960 is the tensions between your communities. Like I didn't grow 1:07:50.160 --> 1:07:58.600 up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. UM. 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:05.560 Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb. UM 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:11.800 that saw first um, not first but just like at 1:08:11.840 --> 1:08:15.880 some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:22.479 and then afterwards more like mainlanders, um, and so on 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:26.200 the playground, somebody was like, are you from Taiwan mainland 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:29.760 or or Hong Kong? And that was when I was 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:33.120 like seven, And that was my introduction to what it 1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:36.760 means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way. 1:08:37.560 --> 1:08:42.920 And um being like just right like in that and 1:08:43.360 --> 1:08:46.360 in that and and figuring yourself out within that and 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:51.599 seeing how there was just an absence of community because 1:08:51.800 --> 1:08:58.080 of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated 1:08:58.200 --> 1:09:03.080 us um and made more difficult um Like when we 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:07.280 filter our parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind 1:09:07.320 --> 1:09:12.160 of like this awkward thing. But but I think that 1:09:12.360 --> 1:09:17.000 like UM in in trying to contend with that in 1:09:17.160 --> 1:09:22.680 the in the present, it's sort of like, um, we 1:09:22.880 --> 1:09:26.560 have these older institutions that other people that that the 1:09:26.680 --> 1:09:30.559 older generations have built. What new things can we build? 1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:36.000 What things can we um? Because I feel like I'm 1:09:36.720 --> 1:09:40.639 I'm really rigid too. I'm like really not great at 1:09:42.400 --> 1:09:44.960 across the aisle. And when I do, it's not it's 1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:49.360 not really about anything substantive. It's like hey, like hi, 1:09:49.600 --> 1:09:52.040 it's good to see you know, Like when you live 1:09:52.080 --> 1:09:54.720 in a place you you don't want to make like 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:59.000 make enemies, but like it's it's a really hard thing, um. 1:10:01.520 --> 1:10:04.719 And it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly 1:10:04.800 --> 1:10:08.880 that people are just taking advantage of you, right like, 1:10:09.400 --> 1:10:12.000 and I don't know, it's it's a it's a really 1:10:12.880 --> 1:10:15.680 difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all 1:10:15.800 --> 1:10:19.720 hate me, great love it. This has been they could 1:10:19.720 --> 1:10:22.559 Happen Here. Join us for part two of this discussion. Tomorrow, 1:10:22.920 --> 1:10:25.120 we're going into more detail on the Save of the Left. 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:27.479 In the meantime, you can find us That Happened Here 1:10:27.560 --> 1:10:31.439 pod on Twitter, Instagram, and check out the Cool Zone 1:10:31.479 --> 1:10:40.040 for other shows that we need on the podcast. Lady 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:43.840 of the Road join comedian Ardi Marine and Emmy nominated 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:48.759 director Julianne Robinson for inspiring conversations with influential women about 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:51.920 self help and life. We're talking about help, we've been 1:10:51.960 --> 1:10:55.320 talking about money. We've been talking about standing up for yourself, 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:57.680 like things that we don't I don't talk about that much, 1:10:57.760 --> 1:11:00.240 so this has been really wonderful for me. Each week, 1:11:00.360 --> 1:11:03.640 Arden and Julie speak with motivating, uplifting women who do 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:06.559 things their way. Let's just say I don't have any 1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:09.200 resentment now, but there was one year where I said 1:11:09.479 --> 1:11:12.040 nine thousand dollars in coins. Want to check for the 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:17.400 sense here relay lessons from risk takers like Joan Jett, 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:21.320 Nicole Buyer, Lauren Laptus and more. But if I'm Christine Varanski, 1:11:21.479 --> 1:11:23.720 I will ask how much Number one is making. If 1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:27.479 there's such a huge difference, I will probably pass on it. 1:11:27.960 --> 1:11:32.600 I passed on from saying that. Listen to Lady of 1:11:32.640 --> 1:11:35.639 the Road starting February tenth on the I Heart Radio app, 1:11:35.680 --> 1:11:40.240 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 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I'm 1:12:10.800 --> 1:12:13.080 Zoe de Channel and I'm so excited to be joined 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:15.800 by my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:19.200 and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl. 1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:22.400 Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, 1:12:22.479 --> 1:12:25.000 where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite 1:12:25.040 --> 1:12:28.000 New Girl episodes, revealed the truth behind the legendary game 1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:31.360 True American, and discuss how this show got made with 1:12:31.479 --> 1:12:34.080 the writer's, guest stars and directors who made the show 1:12:34.120 --> 1:12:36.560 so special. Fans have been begging us to do a 1:12:36.600 --> 1:12:39.280 New Girl recap for years, and we finally made a 1:12:39.360 --> 1:12:43.080 podcast where we answer all your burning questions like is 1:12:43.160 --> 1:12:46.000 there really a bear? In every episode of New Girl. 1:12:46.400 --> 1:12:50.280 Plus each week you'll hear hilarious stories like this at 1:12:50.360 --> 1:12:52.160 the end when he says you got some schmid on 1:12:52.200 --> 1:12:55.040 your face. I feel like I pitched that joke. I 1:12:55.160 --> 1:12:56.840 believe that I feel like I did. I'm not on 1:12:56.880 --> 1:12:58.800 a thousand percent I want to say that was I 1:12:59.160 --> 1:13:01.320 tossed that one out. Listen to the Welcome to Our 1:13:01.360 --> 1:13:04.639 Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast 1:13:04.840 --> 1:13:15.280 or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome did it could 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:18.479 Happen Here? Podcast? It recognizes that Lunar New Year's is not, 1:13:18.600 --> 1:13:21.519 in fact, just one day, and in that spirit, our 1:13:21.560 --> 1:13:24.400 special New Year's episode is going on for a second day. 1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:27.960 So there's the rest of our conversation with Jane and Jane. 1:13:28.840 --> 1:13:30.519 You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch 1:13:30.560 --> 1:13:33.240 on like this is I think kind of defferenting off 1:13:33.280 --> 1:13:34.760 the topic, but I think is also something that I've 1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:37.840 been running into a lot, which is that like, you know, 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:40.320 you have this kind of like you know, you have 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:42.120 this kind of bind right because on the one hand, 1:13:42.160 --> 1:13:45.000 you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot 1:13:45.040 --> 1:13:48.160 of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has 1:13:49.080 --> 1:13:52.240 all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well, 1:13:52.479 --> 1:13:54.240 you know the other thing that's happening is is the 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:57.599 sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left, 1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.600 I think the Canadian left has problem similar problems with 1:13:59.640 --> 1:14:04.880 this is like it's a bunch of just like it's 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:06.479 a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people who 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:10.479 love the CCP. It's a bunch of just we are 1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:13.920 genocide deniers and like people who think that every Asian 1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:17.559 person who like doesn't like the government is a cia 1:14:17.640 --> 1:14:20.960 psi op. And I don't know. This is something that 1:14:21.080 --> 1:14:22.920 I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a lot 1:14:23.080 --> 1:14:26.000 trying to, i mean help people doing Kong Kong organizing 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:30.240 is something I've run into just in like every organized 1:14:30.240 --> 1:14:32.120 like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces 1:14:32.160 --> 1:14:37.599 to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels 1:14:37.680 --> 1:14:40.559 really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort 1:14:40.600 --> 1:14:43.840 of caught between and I guess it's sort of there 1:14:43.920 --> 1:14:46.000 is three way triangulation, right because on the one hand, 1:14:46.040 --> 1:14:50.920 you have this sort of like you have the local 1:14:51.000 --> 1:14:53.280 dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of 1:14:53.280 --> 1:14:57.560 the sort of reactionary smum business owners. You have this, 1:14:58.479 --> 1:15:01.280 you know, the Chinese me also being sort of split 1:15:01.400 --> 1:15:04.320 in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of 1:15:04.400 --> 1:15:10.320 whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers. 1:15:10.560 --> 1:15:13.000 It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verspout times 1:15:13.000 --> 1:15:15.720 and it's like I don't want any of them to 1:15:15.800 --> 1:15:19.080 win and then use them out, and you're caught in 1:15:19.160 --> 1:15:22.439 the middle of this sort of you're caught in the 1:15:22.479 --> 1:15:25.599 middle of the sort of I don't know, I think 1:15:25.600 --> 1:15:27.760 it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like 1:15:28.080 --> 1:15:31.320 one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:34.519 being between both the CCP in the US sort of 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:37.120 like using the specter of each other to sort of 1:15:37.200 --> 1:15:41.120 like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am 1:15:42.000 --> 1:15:45.240 incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that 1:15:46.600 --> 1:15:48.760 these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the 1:15:49.920 --> 1:15:53.880 pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:57.200 like selectively been using anti Asian violence. As you know, 1:15:57.280 --> 1:16:00.400 they basically making the arguments of the import into anti 1:16:00.439 --> 1:16:03.080 ation violence is that, well, this only happens because people 1:16:03.120 --> 1:16:04.840 say many things about the CCP, and if no one 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:08.200 didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence, 1:16:08.280 --> 1:16:11.639 even though like anti asition violence here predates the existence 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:15.360 of a communist party in China by centuries, like we 1:16:15.479 --> 1:16:18.800 we like the we we invaded, We invaded China, like 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:25.559 how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think 1:16:25.600 --> 1:16:28.000 at least twice and maybe three times like before there 1:16:28.120 --> 1:16:31.600 was a communist party. And so I don't know. I 1:16:32.560 --> 1:16:35.960 I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics in ways 1:16:36.000 --> 1:16:40.720 that are very frustrating. And yeah, I just I want 1:16:40.720 --> 1:16:43.479 to open the floor to talk about that. I guess 1:16:43.520 --> 1:16:50.200 I see it as like co optation partly um, but 1:16:50.320 --> 1:16:55.559 I guess I also see it as how power works. 1:16:57.240 --> 1:17:01.920 Like I there's like this local paper and I was 1:17:02.040 --> 1:17:08.919 researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally, 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:15.840 and there was a spat in the paper between two 1:17:15.960 --> 1:17:22.040 people who one of whom is from um a newer 1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:26.240 Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:35.240 in the paper about his history. And there's the history 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:40.519 of like those tensions are like written in the community itself, 1:17:40.640 --> 1:17:44.639 like it's it's it's not a new thing that people 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:48.679 argue about what happened on June four. It's not new 1:17:49.520 --> 1:17:53.680 that people are really mistrustful each other and that there 1:17:53.760 --> 1:18:01.400 are actual like government forces that infiltrate and and create 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:07.320 a like basically deny other people's struggles, like um, when 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:12.360 that the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I 1:18:12.439 --> 1:18:16.760 guess it just is really hard when fellow organizers that 1:18:16.840 --> 1:18:20.840 you otherwise really like I want to get along with 1:18:21.120 --> 1:18:27.439 our our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:30.720 your family, because you're just kind of like you're kind 1:18:30.760 --> 1:18:33.880 of like, wait, so are we have we had a 1:18:33.960 --> 1:18:37.400 conversation about this, Like we clearly haven't talked enough if 1:18:37.840 --> 1:18:40.360 this is what you believe in. And it's just a 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:43.960 little bit hard because it's like community building is not 1:18:45.840 --> 1:18:49.439 assuming that we're in solidarity. Community building is actually like 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:53.360 doing that hard work like what is your community experiencing 1:18:53.560 --> 1:18:57.599 and what is my community experiencing? How are we being 1:18:57.800 --> 1:19:02.439 like weaponized against each other? Like yeah, how are these 1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:08.280 governments like manipulating like communities? But that's like really hard 1:19:08.360 --> 1:19:13.640 when trust has been probably broken like me, Yeah, I 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:16.840 think you're so right that it's it's really about cooptation 1:19:17.080 --> 1:19:19.560 and a lot of it, Like what I've witnessed is 1:19:19.600 --> 1:19:23.320 really so much about UM. And this is like like 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:25.680 you're saying, Jaane, this is a much older dynamic than 1:19:26.800 --> 1:19:29.120 you know, just the past couple of years. Is like, uh, 1:19:29.360 --> 1:19:32.120 states being able to use this kind of home and 1:19:32.280 --> 1:19:38.360 desper of framework to um demand loyalty through like targeting 1:19:38.479 --> 1:19:42.800 desperate people's guilt UM. And so there's so many like 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:45.880 guilty desper people I know who are like you know, 1:19:46.120 --> 1:19:49.559 usually from usually from a class perspective, right because they 1:19:49.640 --> 1:19:52.280 had the their family had the resources to leave or 1:19:53.120 --> 1:19:55.640 uh they were not born in the home country or 1:19:55.680 --> 1:19:59.200 whatever because of their family background, that type of thing, 1:19:59.840 --> 1:20:02.840 and and they want to subsume that by taking this 1:20:03.040 --> 1:20:07.200 radical you know, anti U s anti Canada stands um, 1:20:07.520 --> 1:20:10.120 which is fine, Like obviously being anti US and anti 1:20:10.160 --> 1:20:13.400 Canada is a good thing, but um, the thing that's 1:20:13.439 --> 1:20:15.519 really kind of frustrated me the most is seeing these 1:20:15.600 --> 1:20:20.599 kind of like radical folks in North America, especially queer folks, 1:20:20.840 --> 1:20:25.599 who are like they'll take the most reactionary positions against 1:20:25.920 --> 1:20:29.880 women and queer and you know LGBT folks in China, 1:20:29.960 --> 1:20:34.760 for example, by supporting a state that is repressing them. Right, 1:20:34.880 --> 1:20:38.000 So it's it's such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I 1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:42.519 don't understand why these folks can't see, um, that they're 1:20:42.560 --> 1:20:45.439 kind of perpetuating this violence in the service of this 1:20:45.680 --> 1:20:50.040 kind of overarching imperative of not ever seeing anything bad 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:53.000 about China because it will help, it'll it'll bolster the 1:20:53.160 --> 1:20:58.080 US propaganda war machine, which is like, there's absolutely a 1:20:58.200 --> 1:21:01.640 way that I mean that absolutely happens if you do that, 1:21:02.240 --> 1:21:05.679 uh un carefully, right, if you just kind of repeat 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:09.640 um US media narratives and stuff like that. But I 1:21:09.720 --> 1:21:13.120 think there's absolutely a way to do both right and UM. 1:21:13.960 --> 1:21:15.560 To me, the way to do that is to not 1:21:16.760 --> 1:21:20.280 um support the state discourses that demand loyalty from the 1:21:20.360 --> 1:21:23.880 dask brow, but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right, 1:21:23.920 --> 1:21:26.599 it's just kind of like we support career folks around 1:21:26.600 --> 1:21:29.200 the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments 1:21:29.240 --> 1:21:31.960 and that type of thing, UM, and being able to 1:21:32.080 --> 1:21:36.200 very carefully say that with nuance UM, and to be 1:21:36.320 --> 1:21:40.160 against both at the same time, for example, UM, well, 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:43.479 that's really really difficult right, Um, And people have very 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:47.040 kind of vitriolic reactions when you try and do that. Um. 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:50.840 As you know, she set up talk Chris. So I 1:21:50.920 --> 1:21:52.720 don't know this. This is still the contrum for me 1:21:52.840 --> 1:21:56.240 because I tend to take the more rigid stance against 1:21:56.439 --> 1:21:58.920 against these folks. But I know people who are very 1:21:59.040 --> 1:22:01.880 kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is 1:22:01.960 --> 1:22:05.800 like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're 1:22:05.880 --> 1:22:09.479 just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM. 1:22:09.880 --> 1:22:12.600 And you know, being anti us is better than not 1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:15.080 being anti us. Is It's what a lot of folks say. 1:22:15.160 --> 1:22:18.439 And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But 1:22:18.560 --> 1:22:24.760 then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM, 1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:27.400 that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and 1:22:27.560 --> 1:22:31.400 discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like 1:22:31.600 --> 1:22:34.280 Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts 1:22:34.320 --> 1:22:37.519 that you have on people that you work with, that 1:22:37.600 --> 1:22:40.840 you organize with, that that are your friends or loved ones. Um. 1:22:41.160 --> 1:22:44.040 That you know, that kind of explanation of like, oh, 1:22:44.120 --> 1:22:47.240 they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind 1:22:47.280 --> 1:22:50.479 of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening 1:22:50.479 --> 1:22:53.400 people around you, right, So I think there has to 1:22:53.439 --> 1:22:56.160 be a balance and like being able to steer folks 1:22:56.360 --> 1:23:01.080 in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even 1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:06.120 while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:11.760 be like staring people into a non Salista perspective. I'm 1:23:11.840 --> 1:23:16.479 just like, I'm not a horny for stalin I like 1:23:16.600 --> 1:23:18.360 the thing that pisces me off about this, it's just 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:20.600 like like they're not even Stalinist, Like this is the 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:23.080 thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they were 1:23:23.320 --> 1:23:26.639 merely twentieth century Stalinist, we wouldn't be having this argument, 1:23:27.280 --> 1:23:30.080 because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well yeah, okay, 1:23:30.120 --> 1:23:34.200 like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy. And it's like, no, 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:37.439 they've they've somehow found a way to take literally the 1:23:37.560 --> 1:23:40.560 worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like, okay, but 1:23:40.680 --> 1:23:43.240 what if what if? What if Stalinism but also capitalism 1:23:43.280 --> 1:23:45.599 good at the same time, And it's just like how 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:48.640 how did you do this? Like how how did you 1:23:48.720 --> 1:23:52.760 come up with an ideology that like I don't know, 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:56.160 I mean, I think I think Also, I think that's 1:23:56.200 --> 1:24:00.560 been frustrating to me about this is like it's a 1:24:00.600 --> 1:24:05.880 way of sort of of of it becomes this way 1:24:05.920 --> 1:24:07.920 of channeling you know, you have the diaspert guilt in 1:24:07.960 --> 1:24:10.160 the one hand, that you have just random sort of 1:24:10.960 --> 1:24:14.719 like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it becomes 1:24:14.840 --> 1:24:18.600 this way of like channeling that into this sort of 1:24:18.680 --> 1:24:21.840 follow anti racism where you know, you get you get 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:25.720 people who are like actual professional like hacks, right, like 1:24:25.960 --> 1:24:30.280 Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, to 1:24:30.560 --> 1:24:32.120 doing things like wow, if you if you, if you could, 1:24:32.200 --> 1:24:33.600 if you criticize this time you state it all that 1:24:33.640 --> 1:24:36.160 sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed. 1:24:36.200 --> 1:24:39.960 And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And 1:24:40.320 --> 1:24:45.160 there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem 1:24:46.240 --> 1:24:53.799 of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese 1:24:53.840 --> 1:24:56.800 people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass 1:24:56.960 --> 1:25:00.560 that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology. And 1:25:04.000 --> 1:25:13.760 I don't know that's been I think weird to deal 1:25:13.880 --> 1:25:17.320 with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always 1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:19.960 just in in Chinese communities, like you're always you're just 1:25:20.120 --> 1:25:22.680 you're just gonna have like you know that there's going 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:24.120 to be a few people who are just sort of 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:26.640 like pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just 1:25:26.720 --> 1:25:32.800 a sort of defailed political position. But there's there's this 1:25:33.000 --> 1:25:39.480 way in which you get this, you know, people adopting 1:25:40.160 --> 1:25:43.680 I mean just things that like if you said this 1:25:43.760 --> 1:25:46.120 about any like white American for example, if you if 1:25:46.160 --> 1:25:48.320 you argued that any like a white American making a 1:25:48.360 --> 1:25:51.080 thousand dollars a year wasn't in poverty, but like you 1:25:51.200 --> 1:25:53.760 just couldn't do it, you like, you know, it's it's 1:25:53.800 --> 1:25:56.200 it's literally impossible, like you you'd be laughing out of 1:25:56.200 --> 1:25:58.760 the room or you know, like you're you would you 1:25:58.760 --> 1:26:00.800 would you would be like ratio out until the cows 1:26:00.840 --> 1:26:02.679 come home. But you can just but everyone and people 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:05.519 just say this constantly, like this is just just a 1:26:05.560 --> 1:26:07.559 thing that was like well, if you look at poverty productions, 1:26:07.560 --> 1:26:11.760 like well Chinese China is eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, okay, 1:26:11.800 --> 1:26:14.960 they a thousand dollars a year is outside of this now. 1:26:15.040 --> 1:26:20.000 And I think there's these ways in which it becomes 1:26:20.080 --> 1:26:24.920 hard to intervene in this stuff because like every every 1:26:25.000 --> 1:26:28.240 Asian person especifically, if the Chinese person just becomes a 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:31.400 sort of token that like you know, you just sort 1:26:31.439 --> 1:26:34.439 of like throw at each other as just like oh, 1:26:34.640 --> 1:26:37.240 well yeah, here's the Chinese person who says that the 1:26:37.240 --> 1:26:39.360 CCP is good. It's like, well, here's another Chinese person 1:26:39.560 --> 1:26:41.639 who says that it's bad. And it's like you never 1:26:43.920 --> 1:26:47.559 It's like on both sides, whether whether the process people 1:26:47.600 --> 1:26:49.600 realize it or not, it's their agencies being sort of 1:26:49.640 --> 1:26:51.200 stripped by them and they've they've been turned into this 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:55.680 sort of instrumentalized like you know, in the in the 1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:57.080 same thing that they're also doing to us is that 1:26:57.160 --> 1:26:58.880 they're turning into sort of these instruments that you can 1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:04.839 use to like back your own sort brought in political agenda. 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:11.400 And this, I don't know, like this has gotten me 1:27:11.520 --> 1:27:13.920 to just I I just don't work with these people anymore. 1:27:14.520 --> 1:27:17.400 Like we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:20.960 us over and so I don't know, but but but 1:27:21.040 --> 1:27:23.400 I think that's that's a that's a lonely stance in 1:27:23.479 --> 1:27:25.320 a lot of ways. Like you know, if if you 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:28.439 take this kind of like hardline position, you're not gonna 1:27:29.800 --> 1:27:32.320 most people, even other people who don't support it probably 1:27:32.400 --> 1:27:35.599 won't follow you there. I don't know, it's weird because 1:27:36.800 --> 1:27:39.639 I find a lot of organizing is really lonely. It's 1:27:39.720 --> 1:27:47.799 like it's not like like I want to boast around 1:27:48.439 --> 1:27:52.840 being like why aren't you all donating? But that's not 1:27:53.560 --> 1:27:58.400 that's also guilt, right, that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um, 1:27:58.920 --> 1:28:00.840 and that's not in effect the tool. And I think 1:28:00.880 --> 1:28:05.559 that like like so right and addressing both the white 1:28:05.640 --> 1:28:09.479 guilt but also the diaspora guilt, and also just how 1:28:09.800 --> 1:28:14.880 frustrating it is to organize against the state when it's 1:28:14.960 --> 1:28:17.439 like two people, like three people doing it in a 1:28:17.520 --> 1:28:20.040 little group project for lack of a better word. But 1:28:20.640 --> 1:28:25.640 it's sort of like, how do we make this sustainable 1:28:25.800 --> 1:28:29.680 when it's so lonely? And how do we use the 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:35.880 resources that are available to us two not replicate these 1:28:36.000 --> 1:28:40.560 systems yet again, And I guess when it comes to 1:28:41.840 --> 1:28:48.320 the left or progressive in Canada, it's like so frustrating 1:28:48.479 --> 1:28:53.479 because it's like there isn't actually a lot of community 1:28:53.600 --> 1:29:01.960 outreach to like racialized communities. There's no trens Nation. There's 1:29:02.080 --> 1:29:07.880 a lot of like nonprofit work that is frankly very 1:29:08.080 --> 1:29:12.640 draining and co optive themselves. Um Like, it's it's a 1:29:13.000 --> 1:29:15.920 bunch of social service organizations in a trench code and 1:29:16.080 --> 1:29:20.960 a bunch of political organizations that don't work together or 1:29:21.040 --> 1:29:24.559 talk to each other in a trench code. And um 1:29:24.840 --> 1:29:30.519 so I understand why youth would join like leftist like 1:29:30.760 --> 1:29:36.080 radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking when it's 1:29:36.960 --> 1:29:41.120 you're they end up reading in reading groups where they're 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:47.520 reading historical or so called historical texts that erase your histories. 1:29:48.280 --> 1:29:54.280 Like it's just such a like like reading is great, 1:29:54.520 --> 1:30:00.639 like political education is incredible. Um but I'm like it's 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:04.960 hard not to grow resentful. So when the guy at 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:09.120 the top is the university educated white dude and they're 1:30:09.240 --> 1:30:14.840 reading texts that literally erase your entire family, and it's 1:30:15.479 --> 1:30:18.000 um that like yeah, for me, it's like just really 1:30:18.080 --> 1:30:22.920 personal that way. It's like there are people who are 1:30:23.000 --> 1:30:27.559 suffering in the present and you're reading a text by 1:30:27.920 --> 1:30:32.479 a white sociologist from the eighties, Like like not like 1:30:32.720 --> 1:30:37.280 I'm like it's not that like I I don't think 1:30:37.320 --> 1:30:40.280 that we should do that political education. It is just 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:44.880 that like at a reading group, will you listen to 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:51.000 me when I call you out. Yeah, I definitely, you know, 1:30:51.720 --> 1:30:54.599 both of you saying that this work is really lonely, 1:30:54.760 --> 1:30:56.960 especially if you take if you stand up for yourself, 1:30:57.000 --> 1:30:59.439 for you you really kind of stand by your principles. 1:30:59.520 --> 1:31:03.400 It's like that's so true. And um, you know, not 1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:05.240 to speak for everyone in laws on, but just my 1:31:05.360 --> 1:31:10.240 experience has been like you know, everyone just everyone hates us, 1:31:11.560 --> 1:31:14.160 like it's you know, we got hate from the right, 1:31:14.200 --> 1:31:17.559 we got hate from the left, um and from Hong 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.360 Kong's asper from Hong Kong locals like it's it's just 1:31:20.680 --> 1:31:24.439 sometimes it's really hard to see, you know, because we're 1:31:24.520 --> 1:31:28.360 we're trying to stay true to our principles, but it's 1:31:28.400 --> 1:31:32.200 hard to see sometimes whether there's an impact or whether 1:31:32.280 --> 1:31:34.759 we're just kind of like in a little echo chamber 1:31:34.840 --> 1:31:38.360 with twenty other people, you know what I mean. And um, 1:31:39.080 --> 1:31:42.400 it's hard to find that balance because I don't want 1:31:42.520 --> 1:31:46.120 to become more and more pragmatists where I'm just like, 1:31:46.200 --> 1:31:48.599 all right, well, you know, I'll work with these people, 1:31:48.840 --> 1:31:51.080 but I don't agree with them on these fundamental issues 1:31:51.160 --> 1:31:53.040 just on this one campaign or whatever happens to be. 1:31:54.000 --> 1:31:55.560 I don't know. I know that's a part of like 1:31:55.680 --> 1:31:59.000 building power quote unquote like that a lot of uh certain, 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:02.080 so those groups like to do or they're they're really 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:05.240 focused on that kind of thing. But I don't know 1:32:05.280 --> 1:32:07.240 if it's too much of an academic view to to 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:09.840 be like, if you're going to do it that way, 1:32:09.920 --> 1:32:13.639 you're you're you're changing the outcome already, right, because you're 1:32:13.720 --> 1:32:16.439 not addressing these kind of fundamental issues from the start 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:21.200 um And I think that view can sometimes lead to 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:23.439 like a lot of non starters where you're just like 1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:26.599 things don't ever get off the ground because you insist 1:32:26.760 --> 1:32:30.680 on whatever fundamental principle that you that you want to 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:35.800 stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. So yeah, 1:32:36.200 --> 1:32:39.519 just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with you all 1:32:39.560 --> 1:32:42.560 on the long laitness of that. People think that like 1:32:44.200 --> 1:32:47.040 not working in these sort of united different things is 1:32:47.600 --> 1:32:51.160 this like sort of purityological position. But like you know, 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:55.160 I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right, 1:32:55.160 --> 1:32:58.200 Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend 1:32:58.240 --> 1:32:59.680 thing and one of the groups involved with it was 1:32:59.840 --> 1:33:02.040 the was the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:08.320 sort of like very much sort of like the basic 1:33:08.360 --> 1:33:10.960 the tanking cult, like they've There's not a lot of 1:33:11.000 --> 1:33:13.120 other horrible stuff that will talk about at some point, 1:33:13.160 --> 1:33:15.280 but I mean, one of the things that happens, you know, 1:33:15.320 --> 1:33:18.679 Occupy ICE is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they 1:33:19.200 --> 1:33:24.200 destroy the encampment, like they convince enough people to just 1:33:24.560 --> 1:33:27.120 leave and do this completely pointless like march they can 1:33:27.120 --> 1:33:28.800 do a photo op of like people in front of 1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:30.400 the mayor's office, and they do it, and they camp 1:33:30.439 --> 1:33:32.640 collapses because suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they 1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:33.960 don't even get a majority of the people, but it 1:33:33.960 --> 1:33:37.240 doesn't matter, because they pulled enough people out that you 1:33:37.320 --> 1:33:39.719 know that the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore. 1:33:40.520 --> 1:33:42.439 And I think that in some senses, this is kind 1:33:42.439 --> 1:33:44.720 of microcosm of what they what these people actually do, 1:33:45.439 --> 1:33:47.560 which is that you know, these people will never have 1:33:47.640 --> 1:33:50.680 any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're 1:33:50.680 --> 1:33:53.160 they're never going to create their like salentist state or whatever, 1:33:53.200 --> 1:33:54.680 like they're never going to get this. They're they're never 1:33:54.720 --> 1:33:57.720 gonna hold any power. What they can do is there 1:33:57.760 --> 1:33:59.679 are enough of them they can they can siphon off 1:33:59.760 --> 1:34:03.479 and people from actual leftist movements into this sort of 1:34:03.600 --> 1:34:06.400 just like white ring pro capitalist stuff that they can 1:34:06.760 --> 1:34:08.639 they can cause peoples to collapse, and I mean they've 1:34:08.680 --> 1:34:11.799 done this. They did a lot of this dream the uprising, 1:34:11.840 --> 1:34:15.240 and there is a lot of them, you know, intentionally 1:34:15.360 --> 1:34:17.799 leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of competing 1:34:17.800 --> 1:34:19.400 with the police and stuff like that. And I think 1:34:19.560 --> 1:34:25.040 that you know, it's it's it's like having seen that 1:34:25.160 --> 1:34:30.320 like multiple times, right I I you know, I you know, 1:34:30.400 --> 1:34:32.639 for me, like not working with him is an incredibly 1:34:32.680 --> 1:34:37.439 pragmatic position because we tried it and they blew it up. 1:34:38.920 --> 1:34:40.960 But it's this problem especially you know, you have people 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:43.760 who are radicalized in and it's like, well yeah, I mean, 1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:45.439 I don't know, like a lot of them never saw 1:34:45.560 --> 1:34:48.000 this stuff, right, don't know who these people are, and 1:34:48.080 --> 1:34:50.200 their first instroduction to the left is just like incredibly 1:34:50.240 --> 1:34:55.000 well financed like media blitz, and I think that has 1:34:56.360 --> 1:34:59.360 you know, I think that as consequences both for us 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:04.559 sort of like people on the left doing like Chinese 1:35:04.600 --> 1:35:06.360 people on the left doing our own de asport organizing, 1:35:06.360 --> 1:35:09.120 and it has consequences for the broader left, and like 1:35:09.160 --> 1:35:11.680 you you can see other sort of versions of this 1:35:12.080 --> 1:35:15.439 right where you know, you have a sort of right 1:35:15.439 --> 1:35:17.599 wing we've been infiltrating left to spaces and destroying them 1:35:17.680 --> 1:35:20.639 like they're they're like there there was thing dow Cream 1:35:20.640 --> 1:35:24.160 Resistance basically blew up a like an anti lithium protest 1:35:24.200 --> 1:35:26.880 of the U S by just like going there and 1:35:27.000 --> 1:35:32.040 just hammering transphobia constantly. And so I don't know, I 1:35:32.160 --> 1:35:38.320 think there's there's this sort of dilemma because fundament like 1:35:38.600 --> 1:35:41.040 they will say a lot of the same things we do, 1:35:41.160 --> 1:35:45.879 but we have fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself 1:35:46.880 --> 1:35:50.240 at you know, on the level of of of organizing 1:35:50.280 --> 1:35:54.200 individual campaigns. But it's something that's really hard to get 1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:57.640 people to see. I think we've lost a lot of 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:01.080 movements because of it. Yeah, not to be you know, 1:36:01.200 --> 1:36:03.880 not to pile on the cynicism or anything, but I 1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:08.519 think I honestly do think, uh, you know, as all 1:36:08.560 --> 1:36:10.680 those new Cold War stuff ramps up, which is like 1:36:11.320 --> 1:36:16.320 completely independent of what a lot of folks, like grassroots 1:36:16.400 --> 1:36:20.000 folks are even thinking or advocating, it's all just kind 1:36:20.040 --> 1:36:23.920 of up to the the two uh you know, Chinese 1:36:23.960 --> 1:36:27.080 and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions. 1:36:27.640 --> 1:36:30.559 I think it's really going to start like people are 1:36:30.560 --> 1:36:33.720 going to start these people who are um, you know, 1:36:33.800 --> 1:36:37.200 tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices 1:36:37.600 --> 1:36:41.120 further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's 1:36:41.120 --> 1:36:43.960 going to be an athema to to not you know, 1:36:44.120 --> 1:36:47.479 take the anti us position. And that's it, you know 1:36:47.520 --> 1:36:51.120 what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me. 1:36:52.040 --> 1:36:55.519 I don't I last year, I thought there was still 1:36:55.600 --> 1:36:59.640 room for intervention. But things are closing so quickly. And 1:37:00.680 --> 1:37:03.120 you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of 1:37:03.240 --> 1:37:06.720 these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:11.040 and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you 1:37:11.080 --> 1:37:13.160 know that they have much more funding than a lot 1:37:13.240 --> 1:37:18.040 of other groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And 1:37:18.200 --> 1:37:20.719 so like you're saying, it's just like these media blitz 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:24.280 is that these shiny events and all those different things 1:37:24.760 --> 1:37:28.120 are very appealing to newly radical radicalized folks, right because 1:37:28.120 --> 1:37:30.280 they think that this this is where the power is 1:37:30.360 --> 1:37:33.080 and this is where we can actually make a difference. Um, 1:37:34.479 --> 1:37:37.600 And yeah, things to me, things look pretty bleak in 1:37:37.840 --> 1:37:42.040 the near future. I mean it just takes one Yeah, yeah, 1:37:42.240 --> 1:37:44.599 I will see. I think I think they made one 1:37:44.680 --> 1:37:46.680 major city mistake, which is they tried to do the 1:37:46.760 --> 1:37:49.120 new the push the giant like new cold war war 1:37:49.240 --> 1:37:51.960 China thing at the exact moment of the US and 1:37:52.040 --> 1:37:54.960 Russia we're like heating up in actually, and this left 1:37:55.000 --> 1:37:57.920 them like kind of off balance because they've been for 1:37:57.960 --> 1:37:59.800 the last two years the whole things when the US 1:37:59.880 --> 1:38:03.360 is to accelerate tensence with China using any seltentions with China, 1:38:03.400 --> 1:38:04.960 and then it turns out that they're not doing that 1:38:05.040 --> 1:38:08.720 and in fact, like they're gearing up for just more 1:38:08.800 --> 1:38:10.519 proxy word stuff with Russia, which is the thing they've 1:38:10.520 --> 1:38:12.840 been doing for the past decade. So I think, like, 1:38:12.960 --> 1:38:16.759 I don't know, like I think they their problem essentially 1:38:17.120 --> 1:38:20.439 is that they run into reality and there are certain 1:38:20.520 --> 1:38:23.880 points at which, like you know, you you can lie 1:38:24.040 --> 1:38:28.680 a lot, right, but when when when the line that 1:38:28.760 --> 1:38:31.200 you're pushing is about what the mainstream media is going 1:38:31.240 --> 1:38:34.080 to say, and the mainstream if you just pivots and 1:38:34.160 --> 1:38:38.559 it's just completely about something that's entirely unrelated, Like I think, 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:40.160 I think that hurts, and I think everything that The 1:38:40.240 --> 1:38:42.880 other problem they have that that makes me hopeful is 1:38:43.080 --> 1:38:46.519 that the way there their base is getting split by 1:38:46.800 --> 1:38:49.640 just the anti vax grifters, because so many of their 1:38:49.680 --> 1:38:53.280 media people just you know, are are just are just 1:38:53.360 --> 1:38:56.240 full on grifters, and you know, and you're you're seeing 1:38:56.320 --> 1:38:59.360 splits right now and gray Zone about like basically between 1:38:59.360 --> 1:39:01.040 pro and anti vad X factions. And I think that 1:39:01.280 --> 1:39:07.639 also will help us in the long run, because you know, say, 1:39:07.720 --> 1:39:10.400 say what you want about most leftists and even most tankies, 1:39:10.520 --> 1:39:14.680 like anti VAX is like a bit far even for them, 1:39:15.000 --> 1:39:16.439 and because you know, and the other things like the 1:39:16.560 --> 1:39:20.960 the it's it's hard to do anti VAX without beginning 1:39:21.000 --> 1:39:28.840 to take positions that just like it's been baked into 1:39:29.080 --> 1:39:31.880 just sort of anti Chinese racism in so many ways 1:39:31.960 --> 1:39:36.320 that like you can't really like you know, like you 1:39:36.479 --> 1:39:39.840 can't simultaneously be pro incredibly CCP and then also be 1:39:39.880 --> 1:39:42.760 talking about how the US is trying to implement social credit, right, 1:39:43.560 --> 1:39:46.160 you know, these these are these these positions are just contradictory, 1:39:46.280 --> 1:39:50.480 and I think that's something that plays to our advantage 1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:53.519 and I think is weakening them to some extent because 1:39:55.479 --> 1:39:58.720 they've they tried to have their cake and eat it too, 1:39:58.960 --> 1:40:01.439 and now they're sort of, I don't know, they're there. 1:40:01.439 --> 1:40:07.559 Their conspiracy theory base is interfering with their like left 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:11.280 base in ways I think you're helpful for us. It's 1:40:11.360 --> 1:40:16.880 just so interesting how like the anti vax position is 1:40:17.560 --> 1:40:24.880 literally rooted in racism and ableism. Like, um, there's an 1:40:25.000 --> 1:40:29.040 article in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the 1:40:29.120 --> 1:40:33.080 anti vax movement that has like really good history around 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:41.720 white settlers being afraid of African medicine, um um. And 1:40:41.800 --> 1:40:47.040 then there's also just the able ism of assuming that 1:40:47.160 --> 1:40:51.760 your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That 1:40:51.920 --> 1:40:55.200 was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic, 1:40:55.360 --> 1:40:59.640 and that was part of how this was effective in 1:40:59.680 --> 1:41:06.559 the first place. And um Yeah, and obviously the anti 1:41:06.680 --> 1:41:14.120 Chinese um like uh, anti Asian like scapegoating as well. 1:41:15.240 --> 1:41:20.040 But um, I guess that also ties into like just 1:41:20.160 --> 1:41:25.400 how broadly a blest the left is and how like 1:41:25.760 --> 1:41:30.800 disability justice is not something that a lot of people 1:41:30.920 --> 1:41:37.040 know about um or care about. And it's yeah, I 1:41:37.120 --> 1:41:39.200 don't know, it's a huge problem for me as a 1:41:39.920 --> 1:41:43.080 disabled person. Yeah. I wanted to add really quickly too. 1:41:43.200 --> 1:41:46.040 I mean, I totally agree with you, and you know, 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:49.240 I think one of the pernicious things that I've noticed though, 1:41:49.479 --> 1:41:52.320 is like these kind of big you know, quote unquote 1:41:52.320 --> 1:41:58.440 anti imperialist accounts like on Instagram for example. Um, they 1:41:58.600 --> 1:42:03.280 take this anti vax position precisely by saying that it's 1:42:03.720 --> 1:42:06.400 anti racist to take that position, which is like, it 1:42:06.479 --> 1:42:09.120 sounds that sounds very kind intuitive, it's not that does 1:42:09.160 --> 1:42:14.200 not reflect reality. But they will point to instances of 1:42:15.280 --> 1:42:20.000 you know, anti black us um US medicine for example, 1:42:20.560 --> 1:42:24.240 you know, like the Tusky experiments, and then say this 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:26.160 is why we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on 1:42:26.240 --> 1:42:28.080 any of this, right because look what they've done in 1:42:28.120 --> 1:42:30.720 the past, And it's like that logic makes a lot 1:42:30.760 --> 1:42:34.200 of sense in a lot of ways, right, but you know, 1:42:34.320 --> 1:42:38.360 they obviously ignore the impacts that you know, anti vax 1:42:38.720 --> 1:42:41.320 UH and COVID has had on you know, black and 1:42:41.360 --> 1:42:46.560 other POSD populations. Right. So I think I don't know 1:42:46.680 --> 1:42:49.080 if it's exactly like, I don't know if it is 1:42:49.160 --> 1:42:52.800 appearing as hypocrisy to those people and then their audiences too, right, 1:42:52.880 --> 1:42:54.640 because I think they're able to spin it in this 1:42:54.880 --> 1:42:57.040 in this way. Yeah, but I think I think my 1:42:57.200 --> 1:42:59.400 my my argument here is I don't think those are 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:00.920 the same. I don't like those are the same basis, 1:43:01.439 --> 1:43:06.800 Like I don't. I don't think that the majority of 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:10.479 the Tanky base are people who are anti factors. And 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:12.280 you know that you can see a line of this 1:43:12.479 --> 1:43:14.400 right of of you know, like one of the big 1:43:14.479 --> 1:43:16.560 things that like they're they're they're obsessed with sort of 1:43:16.640 --> 1:43:19.200 like with the Cuban healthcare system, right and like Cuba's 1:43:19.520 --> 1:43:22.320 Cuba's vaccines. You see this stuff from them a lot, 1:43:22.400 --> 1:43:23.880 and you know, and they also talk about like, yeah, 1:43:23.960 --> 1:43:26.760 like China's doing really well accolicating COVID, and I don't 1:43:26.800 --> 1:43:31.880 think those positions are like, I don't think those people 1:43:32.000 --> 1:43:34.640 are the same people who are also turning around and 1:43:34.680 --> 1:43:38.560 then talking about how like you know, talk doing the 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:44.160 Caki experiments the vaccines are actually like racism thing. I 1:43:44.280 --> 1:43:46.519 think I think there's some overlap between them, but but 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:50.320 I don't think that those bases line up enough for 1:43:50.439 --> 1:43:53.519 it to you know, not have the effect of just 1:43:53.720 --> 1:43:59.080 kind of like tearing them apart. As their media people 1:43:59.720 --> 1:44:01.920 flip been too into one of the sort of camps. 1:44:02.000 --> 1:44:05.280 And I think the other thing, like, you know, if 1:44:05.280 --> 1:44:07.760 if you look at what's happening with like, uh, like 1:44:07.920 --> 1:44:10.160 Max Bluemada right now, is that he's just like full 1:44:10.280 --> 1:44:14.120 on like like he's just full on touring with like 1:44:15.080 --> 1:44:17.840 just straight up right wingers to an extent that even 1:44:18.840 --> 1:44:21.280 like even people who being habituated by the sort of 1:44:21.360 --> 1:44:24.280 like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working with 1:44:24.400 --> 1:44:29.840 right wingers, like you can't look at these people that 1:44:30.240 --> 1:44:33.320 you know there's just these actually just like Republican operatives 1:44:34.080 --> 1:44:36.880 and be like, well, okay, we're we're on the side 1:44:36.920 --> 1:44:39.320 of these people and also like support Cuba. I just 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:41.800 I don't know, I I have I have some faith 1:44:42.680 --> 1:44:46.120 in these groups being separate and they're being there being 1:44:46.240 --> 1:44:49.200 a point of cognitive dissonance where the system break out. 1:44:49.680 --> 1:44:54.920 I guess I've seen people who have gotten out of 1:44:55.040 --> 1:44:59.439 tanky is M by having to interact with the actual CCP, 1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:03.160 and and that that that that gives me hope that 1:45:03.280 --> 1:45:06.040 there's there, there's there's a point of cognitive dissonance at 1:45:06.080 --> 1:45:11.000 which it falls apart. And I don't know, maybe maybe 1:45:11.320 --> 1:45:14.000 I'm just sort of like hopy m in here, but 1:45:15.439 --> 1:45:20.640 I feel like it's so interesting how like there are 1:45:20.920 --> 1:45:23.479 a lot of people for whom politics is a parlor 1:45:23.600 --> 1:45:28.880 game and not their every day like lived experience. Like 1:45:29.040 --> 1:45:33.040 I would not be like like if I see my 1:45:33.160 --> 1:45:38.160 communities struggling. Um, and when people are dying or people 1:45:38.200 --> 1:45:43.320 are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma. I'm not gonna 1:45:43.479 --> 1:45:49.639 sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um, things 1:45:49.720 --> 1:45:54.479 that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like the 1:45:55.040 --> 1:46:00.920 angle about classes so important here because it's like a 1:46:01.000 --> 1:46:07.679 lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the broader 1:46:07.760 --> 1:46:12.600 communities around them. Like if you're going around saying untruths 1:46:12.920 --> 1:46:15.760 in the media and your communities are like, hey, that 1:46:16.000 --> 1:46:19.320 that makes no sense. Like, um, if you're actually connected 1:46:19.439 --> 1:46:23.479 to people like like you would hopefully, unless you're just 1:46:23.680 --> 1:46:28.080 a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some accountability 1:46:28.200 --> 1:46:33.360 for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just I 1:46:33.479 --> 1:46:36.920 just worry because this pandemic has also like really isolated people, 1:46:37.720 --> 1:46:41.599 like they people are not like talking to each other, 1:46:41.760 --> 1:46:45.560 and that makes it more easy for people to to 1:46:45.720 --> 1:46:48.080 be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like this is 1:46:48.520 --> 1:46:51.720 my perspective, and I just yeah, I think about that 1:46:52.240 --> 1:46:56.080 the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions, like 1:46:56.920 --> 1:46:59.960 the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to CULTIU 1:47:00.080 --> 1:47:06.120 type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history, because like, 1:47:06.200 --> 1:47:11.240 I feel like the the anti vax uh like not 1:47:11.520 --> 1:47:16.320 taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is a very 1:47:16.520 --> 1:47:25.560 like manipulative like argument because it ignores the fact that 1:47:25.880 --> 1:47:30.000 these experiments UM on black and Indigenous people in North 1:47:30.080 --> 1:47:35.960 America and beyond are like about neglect and are about 1:47:36.520 --> 1:47:42.360 um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like it's completely 1:47:42.479 --> 1:47:46.960 understandable for for people to not trust the government. But 1:47:48.800 --> 1:47:52.519 but like when the vaccine is actually a tool of 1:47:52.720 --> 1:47:57.640 protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like campaigns 1:47:58.400 --> 1:48:03.160 other than people who are uh rooted and disability justice 1:48:03.280 --> 1:48:06.960 saying hey, vaccines are like here to protect us, and 1:48:07.200 --> 1:48:10.280 how can we make how can we make like a like, 1:48:11.400 --> 1:48:15.160 how can we resist the medical industrial complex enough such 1:48:15.280 --> 1:48:19.080 that we can make people feel safer taking them at vaccine? 1:48:19.600 --> 1:48:25.960 How can we bring people in as opposed to fearmongering, 1:48:26.120 --> 1:48:28.560 because I think that fear is so powerful. It's like, 1:48:29.000 --> 1:48:32.200 once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna you're not gonna 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:36.040 even look into the research, right, So I don't know. 1:48:36.640 --> 1:48:38.960 For me, I just think of all of this as 1:48:39.040 --> 1:48:42.360 like manipulation and human psychology on a on a like 1:48:42.560 --> 1:48:48.479 broad social basis because it's like the stage is a 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:54.240 big cult and these little groups are little cults. Yeah, 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:56.800 do do you have any other things you want to 1:48:56.840 --> 1:49:02.920 say before we head out? Happy new here. Yeah, you're 1:49:03.080 --> 1:49:07.919 the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like actually 1:49:10.200 --> 1:49:13.240 Fuary not January one. Yeah, yeah we should, I think 1:49:13.320 --> 1:49:17.880 my okay okayo closing less depressing question. Yeah, what what 1:49:18.200 --> 1:49:22.800 do you think is the etiquette on retweeting? I like, yea, 1:49:22.840 --> 1:49:25.559 every retweeting like you're the Tiger art before the actual 1:49:25.800 --> 1:49:32.760 before like Lunar New Year's. I've been torn on it 1:49:32.880 --> 1:49:35.160 because I just I like the art, but also I'm like, 1:49:35.439 --> 1:49:40.360 it's not the years yet. I haven't seen any I guess, 1:49:40.400 --> 1:49:46.920 so I guess I'm lucky. I have been either guilty 1:49:47.600 --> 1:49:51.840 or just not guilty, depending on how you see it. 1:49:52.080 --> 1:49:55.439 Like I have retweeted all of the Tiger art on 1:49:55.640 --> 1:49:58.920 January first because I did not care. I wanted to 1:49:58.960 --> 1:50:02.920 see the tigers um. But I hope that I see 1:50:03.040 --> 1:50:05.880 more tigers like in the coming days, because if the 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:10.080 Tigers aren't coming, or if we aren't retweeting it, that 1:50:10.720 --> 1:50:13.240 that is an issue, Like there need to be like 1:50:13.360 --> 1:50:16.360 a second like a like a like a like like 1:50:16.479 --> 1:50:19.519 a like a second wave of the tiger are no 1:50:19.680 --> 1:50:27.000 pressure to all of the artists. Well, alright, So if 1:50:27.040 --> 1:50:30.320 if people want to find you or work that you 1:50:30.479 --> 1:50:33.400 have that you want people to find where, where where 1:50:33.400 --> 1:50:35.280 can they do that? Or if you also do not 1:50:35.360 --> 1:50:37.559 want them to find you, that is completely also valid. 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:42.000 The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah, I mostly 1:50:42.040 --> 1:50:47.320 and do not perceive me mode um completely valid. If 1:50:47.360 --> 1:50:49.880 you want to check out allow song stuff feel Free, 1:50:50.240 --> 1:50:54.200 a low song collective dot com. It's good work. My 1:50:54.360 --> 1:51:01.519 social media is um pepakal poetry um on Instagram. I 1:51:02.400 --> 1:51:08.880 uh um. I have this graphic that I've turned into 1:51:08.960 --> 1:51:16.400 a sticker and it's raises funds for families who were 1:51:16.600 --> 1:51:20.400 affected by the fires and floods. Um. It's a sticker 1:51:20.640 --> 1:51:25.960 that says immunocompromised people are worth protecting and it went 1:51:26.200 --> 1:51:29.840 viral multiple times. So I guess I cannot help but 1:51:30.080 --> 1:51:36.760 be perceived objections. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah I'll poetry. Yeah, 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:38.560 this this is what happens when you create things that 1:51:38.640 --> 1:51:43.040 are both incredibly politically powerful and also gorgeous. So yeah, 1:51:44.000 --> 1:51:48.080 be be be cursed with the reward for good work. 1:51:48.560 --> 1:51:56.559 Which is also being perceived. Yeah, yeah, well you can. 1:51:56.600 --> 1:51:59.280 You can find you can find us at happened here 1:51:59.320 --> 1:52:02.439 pod on Twitter, Instagram, there's the cool zone. You can 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:05.840 find it. Yeah, go go, go, go retweet Tiger Art 1:52:06.560 --> 1:52:10.680 I go throw a brick at your sheriff non actionable 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:14.840 and yeah, destroy the American and Chinese States. Happy two years? 1:52:21.840 --> 1:52:25.200 Oh boy, prop. You know what's fun is is live shows, 1:52:25.520 --> 1:52:30.479 live podcast shows. Live podcasts are incredible. You know what 1:52:30.720 --> 1:52:34.040 isn't incredible is the plague, which is why we've decided 1:52:34.080 --> 1:52:35.400 to find a way to give you all a live 1:52:35.479 --> 1:52:39.080 show that won't spread the plague, a virtual live show. 1:52:39.960 --> 1:52:42.160 We had to pivot, and one can say you could 1:52:42.200 --> 1:52:45.599 really watch it from anywhere. You could watch it from anywhere. 1:52:45.640 --> 1:52:47.160 You could watch it. If you're on the I S 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:49.320 S in space right now, you could watch it, if 1:52:49.360 --> 1:52:52.000 you're if you're in a trench in in eastern Ukraine, 1:52:52.160 --> 1:52:55.400 you could watch it. Uh, if you're driving and and 1:52:55.960 --> 1:52:58.559 don't care about paying attention to the road, you could 1:52:58.600 --> 1:53:00.360 watch it. All of these are options. With a Verse 1:53:00.439 --> 1:53:05.280 totally eliminated the problems of living in a three dimensional plane. 1:53:05.840 --> 1:53:10.400 We have. It's it's groundbreaking. You could call it the metaverse. Anyway, 1:53:10.800 --> 1:53:16.120 It's going to be February at six pm PST. Prop 1:53:16.320 --> 1:53:19.040 is going to be the guest. Sophie's gonna be there too, 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:21.479 and you can buy tickets at moment house dot com 1:53:21.920 --> 1:53:25.240 slash behind the Bastards, slash behind the Bastards, moment house 1:53:25.280 --> 1:53:28.240 dot com slash behind the Bastards watch it later. You 1:53:28.280 --> 1:53:30.200 don't have to watch it. It's so bad, you guys, 1:53:30.280 --> 1:53:32.800 we gotta do this. What are you talking about? It 1:53:33.560 --> 1:53:35.320 was good. I thought everybody was going to be on 1:53:35.360 --> 1:53:37.360 board with this ship. We're all just saying the same 1:53:37.439 --> 1:53:40.560 ship over each other, all at once. That's that's so 1:53:40.720 --> 1:53:45.880 that they notice it. It's called chemistry. This was really bad. 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:49.400 Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:51.640 enough people know about, and we're here to change that. 1:53:51.960 --> 1:53:55.400 I'm April Denuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption 1:53:55.520 --> 1:53:59.120 presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, 1:53:59.240 --> 1:54:02.280 real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them, 1:54:02.320 --> 1:54:06.120 with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, 1:54:06.240 --> 1:54:10.000 slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt 1:54:10.040 --> 1:54:12.240 us Kids, brought to you by the U S. Department 1:54:12.280 --> 1:54:15.040 of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, 1:54:15.080 --> 1:54:18.400 and the Act Council. Look to your children's eyes to 1:54:18.479 --> 1:54:22.000 see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook 1:54:22.040 --> 1:54:25.080 world for them. You look and see a tree. They 1:54:25.200 --> 1:54:28.520 see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched 1:54:28.600 --> 1:54:31.880 to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see 1:54:31.920 --> 1:54:34.960 a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they 1:54:35.080 --> 1:54:39.640 see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find 1:54:39.680 --> 1:54:42.360 a forest near you and start exploring it. Discover the 1:54:42.440 --> 1:54:44.840 Forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United States 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:55.360 Forest Service and the ad Council. It could happen. Here 1:54:56.120 --> 1:54:59.440 is the podcast that This is about things falling apart 1:54:59.600 --> 1:55:02.000 and how to, how to, how to maybe unfollowed apart. 1:55:02.640 --> 1:55:06.040 I'm Robert Evans. Your your your host, and your other 1:55:06.120 --> 1:55:11.320 hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our producers Sophie. How's 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:16.080 everybody doing today? Great? How every How does everybody feel 1:55:16.080 --> 1:55:23.200 about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were to get us, 1:55:23.600 --> 1:55:26.520 based on your knowledge of history, what generation of war 1:55:26.800 --> 1:55:28.800 we're in right now? What would you what? What would 1:55:28.840 --> 1:55:35.920 y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's it's it's 1:55:36.040 --> 1:55:38.760 newer in relation to like human beings, Like the idea 1:55:38.800 --> 1:55:42.320 of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles, but 1:55:42.400 --> 1:55:45.280 like the idea of like war, I feel like isn't 1:55:45.640 --> 1:55:49.360 super old compared to how long there's been humans walking around. 1:55:49.800 --> 1:55:53.000 So I don't know, this is maybe I mean, I 1:55:53.120 --> 1:55:56.640 know the answer, but like it's it's like like that's 1:55:56.800 --> 1:55:59.120 that's definitely we definitely passed through like at least a 1:55:59.160 --> 1:56:02.600 couple of stages and at least a couple Chris, like 1:56:03.000 --> 1:56:07.440 gotta be at least twelve Twelvest, you're way ahead of 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:10.320 William s Lynd, who spoilers is the guy who came 1:56:10.400 --> 1:56:12.840 up with the concept of fourth generation war, which is 1:56:12.880 --> 1:56:15.200 what this episode is about. Right. One of the things 1:56:15.360 --> 1:56:18.520 when we talk about things falling apart is um the 1:56:20.000 --> 1:56:24.400 unsettling growth of a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine 1:56:24.480 --> 1:56:29.120 being the most like blatant modern example, Syria being the 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:32.800 deadliest example in our lifetimes. But like these weird hybrid 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:35.760 conflicts that are a mix of shit happening on the 1:56:35.840 --> 1:56:38.520 Internet and like disinformation going out all over the world. 1:56:38.520 --> 1:56:40.520 You could even think to like what was happening in 1:56:40.560 --> 1:56:42.800 Bolivia a year or so back, and like all those 1:56:42.880 --> 1:56:45.920 weird accounts that were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming 1:56:45.960 --> 1:56:48.920 to support the military coup. And you can look at 1:56:49.000 --> 1:56:51.560 like from the same this disinformation brought out by like 1:56:51.640 --> 1:56:54.120 the Russian state that is usually as part of like 1:56:54.240 --> 1:56:57.160 a conflict either you know, they have disinfo operations and 1:56:57.280 --> 1:57:00.800 Syria disinfo operations around the conflict, and you crane that 1:57:00.880 --> 1:57:04.440 are kind of designed to muddy the issues and to 1:57:04.880 --> 1:57:08.880 detract international support and also to like drum up support 1:57:09.000 --> 1:57:11.040 within for like in the in the case of Ukraine, 1:57:11.080 --> 1:57:14.200 you had like this media blitz against the legitimacy of 1:57:14.240 --> 1:57:17.400 the Ukrainian state in favor of like a more UH 1:57:17.760 --> 1:57:21.920 like traditionally Russian um UH style of government in the East, 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:24.080 and like that led to this breakaway republic that was 1:57:24.120 --> 1:57:26.440 supported by the Russian government. And like so these are 1:57:26.480 --> 1:57:28.880 like hybrid conflicts is kind of how these are referred to. 1:57:29.520 --> 1:57:33.320 And there was a guy named William S. Lynd who 1:57:33.480 --> 1:57:37.760 in nineteen eighty nine wrote a book with a couple 1:57:37.800 --> 1:57:40.440 of US military analysts. Like he was an analyst for 1:57:40.480 --> 1:57:42.600 the military. He was not serving in the military. The 1:57:42.680 --> 1:57:45.560 other guys he wrote this this thing with we're serving 1:57:45.640 --> 1:57:48.920 at the time, and they wrote this this book kind 1:57:48.920 --> 1:57:50.880 of trying to be basically what Lynde was doing. He 1:57:51.000 --> 1:57:54.840 was very influenced by our loss in Vietnam when I say, 1:57:54.880 --> 1:57:58.919 are here, like the loss of the American state in Vietnam, 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:02.520 and he was trying to determine, like number one, kind 1:58:02.560 --> 1:58:04.480 of like find a way to codify and explain the 1:58:04.640 --> 1:58:06.920 changes that were happening to warfare in this period. Was 1:58:06.920 --> 1:58:09.200 also influenced about what was happening in Afghanistan with the 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:12.320 Russians were experiencing UM and find a way to like 1:58:12.480 --> 1:58:15.640 move forward and allow the United States to win wars again, right, 1:58:15.720 --> 1:58:19.280 Like that was William S. Lynn's goal UM, And so 1:58:19.480 --> 1:58:21.800 he came up with this concept of four or he 1:58:21.920 --> 1:58:23.360 and some other guys come up with what they called 1:58:23.440 --> 1:58:27.880 fourth generation warfare UM and first generation warfare is like 1:58:28.280 --> 1:58:31.240 Napoleonic Arab warfare. So, like as Garrison was saying, you 1:58:31.320 --> 1:58:34.160 may note that he kind of starts his that it's 1:58:34.200 --> 1:58:40.240 pretty late. That's pretty late we had wars before. Yeah, 1:58:40.280 --> 1:58:42.720 that's there's a lot of stuff that leads up to like, yeah, 1:58:42.760 --> 1:58:45.280 if I was gonna try to categorize different types of 1:58:45.360 --> 1:58:47.920 warfare that would not be the one I start with. Well, 1:58:47.960 --> 1:58:50.160 and like the reality, of course is we'll talk about 1:58:50.200 --> 1:58:52.160 like when you start looking at different kinds of warfares, 1:58:52.200 --> 1:58:54.920 there's wars that look remarkably like the ship going on 1:58:55.000 --> 1:58:57.960 in Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand 1:58:58.080 --> 1:59:02.240 years ago, um, like something like like in the same places. 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:04.960 To like it's just like if you wanted to if 1:59:04.960 --> 1:59:06.960 you wanted to talk about like kind of the modern 1:59:07.320 --> 1:59:09.560 style of wars that we saw that we've seen really 1:59:09.600 --> 1:59:11.800 in the last like hundred and fifty years, they're not 1:59:11.920 --> 1:59:13.720 all that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like 1:59:13.760 --> 1:59:16.280 the kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um, 1:59:16.400 --> 1:59:20.000 which are these really like big nation states style conflicts 1:59:20.040 --> 1:59:22.600 and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S. 1:59:22.680 --> 1:59:25.240 Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after 1:59:25.280 --> 1:59:28.000 the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the 1:59:28.080 --> 1:59:30.600 Thirty Years War um. And it's the kind of warfare 1:59:30.640 --> 1:59:32.960 where you have these like big tightly ordered groups of 1:59:33.040 --> 1:59:36.360 men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate 1:59:36.400 --> 1:59:39.640 weapons and mass together. Right. Uh, this is ended by 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:42.760 the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic 1:59:42.880 --> 1:59:45.560 rifle UM or on the bolt reaction rifle, I should say, 1:59:45.600 --> 1:59:48.000 and that leads us to second generation warfare, which is 1:59:48.040 --> 1:59:50.880 linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires. 1:59:51.000 --> 1:59:53.360 That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not 1:59:53.440 --> 1:59:56.680 marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um, 1:59:56.760 --> 1:59:59.880 and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one 2:00:00.080 --> 2:00:02.840 kind of ship right um. Really we start to see 2:00:02.880 --> 2:00:04.920 this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is 2:00:05.000 --> 2:00:06.720 kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and 2:00:07.120 --> 2:00:09.480 over the course of World War One we more merge 2:00:09.600 --> 2:00:11.920 and again this is william S Lends way, we emerge 2:00:12.000 --> 2:00:15.320 from second generation to third generation warfare, which is where 2:00:15.360 --> 2:00:19.440 you've got infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and 2:00:19.520 --> 2:00:21.760 collapse at which is kind of the Germans and their 2:00:21.800 --> 2:00:25.920 altrogs tactic and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering 2:00:26.000 --> 2:00:28.520 that you've got the idea of defense in depth um. 2:00:28.600 --> 2:00:30.840 And so this need to bypass the enemy and like 2:00:30.960 --> 2:00:33.760 this leads to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of 2:00:33.800 --> 2:00:37.320 ship um and then that kind of starts to collapse 2:00:37.440 --> 2:00:40.360 and Len's estimation around Vietnam, and you get what's called 2:00:40.440 --> 2:00:44.040 fourth generation warfare. Fourth generation. I'm actually just going to 2:00:44.120 --> 2:00:47.240 read a quote from a military history wiki that I 2:00:47.400 --> 2:00:49.520 thought had a pretty good description of all of this. 2:00:50.280 --> 2:00:53.520 Fourth generation warfare is normally characterized by a violent non 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:56.800 state actor fighting a state. This fighting can be physically done, 2:00:56.800 --> 2:00:59.920 such as by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers 2:01:00.000 --> 2:01:03.720 of Tamil alam Um. In this realm, the v n essay, 2:01:03.800 --> 2:01:06.160 these violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth 2:01:06.200 --> 2:01:09.480 generation warfare. These are the physical actual combat, which is 2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:12.600 considered the least important, mental the will to fight, belief 2:01:12.640 --> 2:01:15.560 in victory, etcetera. And the moral, which is the most important. 2:01:15.720 --> 2:01:20.080 LYND says and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously 2:01:20.640 --> 2:01:23.520 I think that this is kind of nonsense. There's a 2:01:23.560 --> 2:01:25.840 lot of people, So there's a lot of folks, the 2:01:26.040 --> 2:01:27.920 people who buy into this, and it's very popular on 2:01:27.960 --> 2:01:30.000 the right. Well, we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine. 2:01:30.040 --> 2:01:32.280 It's a perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you 2:01:32.360 --> 2:01:35.200 have Russia flooding the zone using spot nick and a 2:01:35.240 --> 2:01:38.240 bunch of other kind of media organizations to drum up 2:01:38.520 --> 2:01:42.400 um discord and like anger between East and West in Ukraine, 2:01:42.760 --> 2:01:45.120 uh and support for potential Russian action at the same 2:01:45.200 --> 2:01:48.000 time as you have them backing this dictator um and 2:01:48.080 --> 2:01:50.360 then you have like the West sort of supporting the 2:01:50.680 --> 2:01:54.000 people protesting against those dictators and like so you've got 2:01:54.120 --> 2:01:58.040 like this this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually 2:01:58.160 --> 2:02:00.480 leads to fighting on the ground. One of the areas 2:02:00.520 --> 2:02:03.640 in which I think Lynda is really off is talking 2:02:03.680 --> 2:02:06.440 about like the physical as the least important, especially if 2:02:06.480 --> 2:02:09.160 you're going to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare, 2:02:09.200 --> 2:02:13.680 because if the Russian military had not intervened, there would 2:02:13.720 --> 2:02:16.480 not still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would 2:02:16.520 --> 2:02:18.600 not still hold land, and in fact, the Separatis were 2:02:18.640 --> 2:02:20.720 on the edge of getting completely wiped out by the 2:02:20.840 --> 2:02:23.840 Ukrainian military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors 2:02:23.880 --> 2:02:26.880 with minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved 2:02:26.880 --> 2:02:29.520 in brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um 2:02:29.640 --> 2:02:32.240 including like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to 2:02:32.240 --> 2:02:35.840 shoot down that Malaysian airlines flight. Like that. It's it's 2:02:35.880 --> 2:02:38.600 just not I I don't think that that what what 2:02:38.800 --> 2:02:43.400 Linda is saying is very um very well describes what's 2:02:43.400 --> 2:02:45.720 actually going on in the world. But it is important 2:02:45.720 --> 2:02:49.040 to understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:51.920 generation warfare, which we'll talk about in a bit um, 2:02:52.240 --> 2:02:55.440 because it is so useful in the way in which 2:02:55.560 --> 2:02:59.560 particularly guys like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict because 2:02:59.600 --> 2:03:02.320 they you will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly, 2:03:02.360 --> 2:03:05.120 and it's also something that has used a lot within 2:03:05.240 --> 2:03:07.560 our military establishment. Now a lot of people hate it, 2:03:07.680 --> 2:03:10.080 and within you can find a lot of papers buy 2:03:10.240 --> 2:03:13.320 dudes writing like analysts who are working for the Defense 2:03:13.360 --> 2:03:16.240 Department for the army actively like shipping on Lynd and 2:03:16.280 --> 2:03:19.200 talking about how he's at best is kind of like 2:03:19.400 --> 2:03:22.360 reinvented ideas that existed in warfare for thousands of years, 2:03:22.400 --> 2:03:24.120 and he's kind of summarized things in a way that 2:03:24.280 --> 2:03:28.920 that is needlessly flattening, and like some people will say, 2:03:29.040 --> 2:03:31.400 you basically like ripped up like added the Internet to 2:03:31.480 --> 2:03:34.560 Klauschwitz uh and pretended that you'd invented a new style 2:03:34.600 --> 2:03:37.680 of conor that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway, 2:03:37.920 --> 2:03:41.920 that's like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation 2:03:42.000 --> 2:03:44.400 warfare right. And there's a lot of things that he 2:03:44.480 --> 2:03:47.280 gets again like if you're if you're a history a 2:03:47.360 --> 2:03:49.840 military history wong, which Lynde pretends to be a lot 2:03:49.880 --> 2:03:53.200 of ship that he gets wrong. Um. So one of 2:03:53.280 --> 2:03:55.640 the things that he says, like one of his famous 2:03:55.680 --> 2:03:59.760 phrases that every military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um, 2:04:00.040 --> 2:04:02.560 the idea that like every military that that is great 2:04:02.640 --> 2:04:05.120 eventually like has a gigantic funk up because they get 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:07.600 too used to doing the same thing, which is true um. 2:04:07.720 --> 2:04:10.840 And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did 2:04:10.880 --> 2:04:13.040 in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put 2:04:13.080 --> 2:04:15.880 into service a much more improved model mesh kit mess 2:04:15.960 --> 2:04:18.640 kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did it 2:04:18.640 --> 2:04:20.920 in eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the 2:04:20.960 --> 2:04:23.400 shelf and old model mess kett the mass draft Army 2:04:23.440 --> 2:04:25.680 of the First Republic and put it back into service. 2:04:25.920 --> 2:04:28.360 The Japanese did it in ninety five, after which they 2:04:28.400 --> 2:04:30.640 threw their mesket away swearing they would never eat again. 2:04:30.920 --> 2:04:32.880 And we did it in Korea in Vietnam. And now 2:04:32.880 --> 2:04:35.160 when four new wars so far we've only we've had 2:04:35.160 --> 2:04:37.920 the only military that's just kept on eating. And that's 2:04:37.920 --> 2:04:41.200 a really dumb statement. That's all really historically and accurate. So, 2:04:41.280 --> 2:04:44.680 for example, it's true that like the Prussians had a 2:04:44.800 --> 2:04:47.600 great military which then got its butt kicked by Napoleon 2:04:47.720 --> 2:04:49.760 and they had to completely redesign it, and by the 2:04:49.800 --> 2:04:52.680 time eighteen seventy came around, they were extremely dominant on 2:04:52.680 --> 2:04:55.720 the battlefield against the French. Number One, he's crediting the 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:58.680 military reforms of like tactics and strategy and ignoring things 2:04:58.760 --> 2:05:01.240 like Krupp inventing it an entirely new kind of cannon 2:05:01.280 --> 2:05:04.600 that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um. He's also 2:05:04.640 --> 2:05:07.480 ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um. He's saying, 2:05:07.560 --> 2:05:09.400 like the US is the only army that does the 2:05:09.480 --> 2:05:11.360 same thing over and over again and fails and keeps 2:05:11.400 --> 2:05:13.440 on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the army the 2:05:13.480 --> 2:05:15.520 Germans took into battle in World War One and two, 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:21.200 and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either of those wars. Um. 2:05:22.040 --> 2:05:23.920 He also talks about how like the French had their 2:05:24.040 --> 2:05:26.200 you know, crapping in the mess hit moment in eighteen 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:28.400 seventy after the Franco Prussian War, and they changed their 2:05:28.480 --> 2:05:30.880 army and it was much better. Like, well, they didn't 2:05:30.960 --> 2:05:33.320 win World War One, like they were on the side 2:05:33.400 --> 2:05:35.480 that one, but if it had been them against Germany, 2:05:35.520 --> 2:05:38.640 they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it was not 2:05:38.840 --> 2:05:40.960 going well for them for quite a while, and they 2:05:41.040 --> 2:05:44.000 lost a whole generation of young men. So maybe and 2:05:44.120 --> 2:05:46.520 and again this is like what he's saying is basically 2:05:46.720 --> 2:05:49.880 we because we're losing so constantly. The reason that we're 2:05:49.920 --> 2:05:52.600 losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts. It's 2:05:52.640 --> 2:05:55.080 not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when we 2:05:55.080 --> 2:05:57.360 shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It's not because 2:05:57.680 --> 2:06:01.960 we use military force in like a fundamentally venal and 2:06:02.080 --> 2:06:05.560 corrupt way in order to benefit a small cabal of 2:06:06.200 --> 2:06:10.160 military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't have good 2:06:10.200 --> 2:06:13.720 battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning in these conflicts, 2:06:14.160 --> 2:06:17.680 which ignores everything about the reality of the conflicts that 2:06:17.800 --> 2:06:20.120 like he's talking about, Like the problem is not a 2:06:20.240 --> 2:06:22.760 lack of combat dominance, which is is what you were 2:06:22.760 --> 2:06:24.840 seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon. It's what you 2:06:24.920 --> 2:06:28.400 were seeing with the French fighting the Germans in eighteen seventy, right, 2:06:28.480 --> 2:06:32.280 Like in those cases, the Prussians had a massive failure 2:06:32.280 --> 2:06:34.880 of combat dominance against the French, and the French had 2:06:34.880 --> 2:06:37.400 a massive failure in combat against the Germans. Their doctrine 2:06:37.440 --> 2:06:41.600 was just worse. Um, US soldiers are great at getting 2:06:41.600 --> 2:06:44.200 into gunfights and great at winning gun fights. The problem 2:06:44.320 --> 2:06:47.120 is not a lack of combat ability. The problem is 2:06:47.160 --> 2:06:50.080 that there's no way to win the conflicts that we're 2:06:50.120 --> 2:06:53.840 getting into. They are unwinnable wars that were never things 2:06:53.960 --> 2:06:56.560 that like, there no amount of change in doctrine would 2:06:56.560 --> 2:06:59.680 have made Afghanistan a success because it was a stupid 2:07:00.000 --> 2:07:03.080 are Like it's like if if that were true, like 2:07:03.240 --> 2:07:09.520 coin would have worked. And yeah, no, like absolutely yeah yeah, 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:14.200 just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of 2:07:14.280 --> 2:07:18.440 people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations, 2:07:18.720 --> 2:07:22.560 and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah, 2:07:23.000 --> 2:07:25.360 and and and and if you really dig into Lynd 2:07:25.440 --> 2:07:27.520 and others like him, what they're actually saying when they 2:07:27.560 --> 2:07:29.160 say that, like we need to reform like the way 2:07:29.160 --> 2:07:31.640 the military works with new battle doctors. We need to 2:07:31.680 --> 2:07:34.440 be killing even more people. We just didn't kill enough 2:07:34.480 --> 2:07:36.560 in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or so 2:07:36.680 --> 2:07:39.200 that wasn't enough people like that. That's the reform that 2:07:39.280 --> 2:07:43.440 he's really talking about. Um, is Lynd one of those 2:07:43.480 --> 2:07:46.240 people who like rants about the like the the the 2:07:46.280 --> 2:07:49.800 al Salvadorian option. UM. I'm sure he does. I don't 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:52.200 know exactly what he said about al Salvador. He's a 2:07:52.360 --> 2:07:56.960 fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely a fascist. 2:07:57.040 --> 2:07:59.560 He was the director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism 2:07:59.640 --> 2:08:03.240 at the re Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote a or 2:08:03.360 --> 2:08:07.720 he helped to popularize a declaration of Cultural Independence by 2:08:07.800 --> 2:08:12.280 Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's a lot 2:08:12.320 --> 2:08:14.120 of the seeds of the ship that we're seeing today, 2:08:14.280 --> 2:08:17.280 right that like American culture institutions are being collapsed because 2:08:17.320 --> 2:08:21.240 of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives should separate 2:08:21.320 --> 2:08:26.480 themselves and like set up parallel institutions where Bannon comes in. 2:08:26.600 --> 2:08:28.800 And that's where Bannon comes in. That where like fucking 2:08:29.040 --> 2:08:32.200 Andrew Torba and gab come and they all advocate this ship. Yeah, 2:08:32.200 --> 2:08:36.320 because they're all they all adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah, 2:08:36.800 --> 2:08:40.920 like politics has culture and there's downstream. Yeah, and there's 2:08:40.960 --> 2:08:43.600 some weird differences with Lynd, Like he's a huge mass 2:08:43.680 --> 2:08:46.400 transit and urban rail advocate, which I guess I agree 2:08:46.440 --> 2:08:49.760 with him every once in a while, a bad person 2:08:49.880 --> 2:08:51.880 does have a good opinion. He loves he loves him 2:08:51.920 --> 2:08:54.760 some fucking city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also 2:08:54.840 --> 2:08:57.600 he was a major factor. He was one of the earliest, 2:08:57.760 --> 2:09:01.160 like prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism 2:09:01.200 --> 2:09:03.680 and kind of the modern political period. I mean that 2:09:03.800 --> 2:09:05.920 makes sense because he was really into it. Sounds like 2:09:05.960 --> 2:09:09.720 he's real into meta politics. So yeah, that's in Metapolis. Yeah, So, 2:09:09.880 --> 2:09:11.360 like all of this stuff makes a whole lot of 2:09:11.440 --> 2:09:14.240 sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what, 2:09:14.520 --> 2:09:16.760 if you know what meta politics are. It's also kind 2:09:16.800 --> 2:09:20.560 of explains how he developed the different generations of warfare 2:09:20.760 --> 2:09:22.920 using it through a framework of metal politics. Actually really 2:09:23.000 --> 2:09:27.040 makes that fit if you believe, like Breitbart famously stated 2:09:27.080 --> 2:09:29.600 that like politics is downstream from culture, and if you 2:09:29.680 --> 2:09:31.680 also believe what Claus I think it was class Wits 2:09:31.720 --> 2:09:34.200 that said that like war is politics by other means 2:09:34.320 --> 2:09:38.480 than like you can make cultural can cause wars, and like, yeah, 2:09:38.600 --> 2:09:40.520 like that's a lot like kind of I think the 2:09:40.560 --> 2:09:43.760 thought process behind Yeah, because this this really defines what 2:09:43.880 --> 2:09:47.400 he means by fourth generation warfare of war being handed 2:09:47.440 --> 2:09:50.880 out specifically by the culture instead of having it be 2:09:51.000 --> 2:09:53.480 abstracted to be like people marching towards each other with 2:09:53.560 --> 2:09:56.560 guns because he's, he's, he's, he's putting the he's putting 2:09:56.600 --> 2:09:58.920 the culture kind of back into it. Yeah, and he 2:09:59.040 --> 2:10:01.960 and he's and he's in. And obviously culture was never 2:10:02.200 --> 2:10:04.920 not a factor, and of course not like every single 2:10:04.960 --> 2:10:06.680 war has, but a major factor, like all of this 2:10:06.720 --> 2:10:08.520 ship he talks about is being characters to go. Fourth 2:10:08.560 --> 2:10:11.880 generation warfare has been happening in one way or another 2:10:11.920 --> 2:10:14.720 for thousands of years, but it's it's not that these 2:10:14.800 --> 2:10:18.320 things are done in like temporal succession. It's like because 2:10:18.360 --> 2:10:20.040 because like a lot of the stuff that makes up 2:10:20.080 --> 2:10:22.800 fourth generation warfare, like the more like guerrilla warfare aspects, 2:10:23.080 --> 2:10:26.880 come way before people with guns marching towards the other 2:10:27.400 --> 2:10:31.480 Africans doing that to Alexander the Goddamn Group for the 2:10:31.560 --> 2:10:33.600 Birth of Christ, A lot of a lot of this 2:10:33.680 --> 2:10:36.960 fourth gend stuff is actually like kind of more similar 2:10:37.040 --> 2:10:40.520 to what original warfare probably would have been, Like Yeah, 2:10:41.000 --> 2:10:43.280 which I think yeah. I think to to his credit, 2:10:43.360 --> 2:10:45.560 I think he does actually recognize that at some point 2:10:45.600 --> 2:10:47.640 in his writing now and and and the thing about 2:10:47.720 --> 2:10:49.240 this is, well, we can pick at it, and I 2:10:49.320 --> 2:10:52.120 think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's 2:10:52.200 --> 2:10:54.480 it's close enough to the way that reality works that 2:10:54.560 --> 2:10:57.640 if you're going, if you're thinking about conflict in this framework, 2:10:57.680 --> 2:11:00.440 you can be very successful. It's not like an It's 2:11:00.480 --> 2:11:03.920 inaccurate in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing 2:11:04.000 --> 2:11:06.120 why certain things work. I think is a lot of 2:11:06.200 --> 2:11:08.480 what he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll 2:11:08.480 --> 2:11:12.360 say that, um, if if the American military were to 2:11:12.680 --> 2:11:16.440 make the fucking lend the Secretary of Defense and give 2:11:16.520 --> 2:11:19.400 him total power, like he would keep on losing wars 2:11:19.440 --> 2:11:21.640 as hard as we've been losing wars for everyone listening 2:11:21.680 --> 2:11:25.480 to this as lifetime. Um. But in a cultural sense, 2:11:25.560 --> 2:11:27.600 the kind of culture jamming, which is a term we'll 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:29.080 talk about more in the future. And but the kind 2:11:29.080 --> 2:11:32.080 of like the propaganda arms and stuff in order to 2:11:32.360 --> 2:11:36.200 the the the the media warfare in order to either 2:11:36.320 --> 2:11:40.480 insight or justify real conflict or or and this is 2:11:40.520 --> 2:11:41.840 one of the areas in which they have been really 2:11:41.880 --> 2:11:46.720 effective to alter the dimension, to alter how internationally a 2:11:46.800 --> 2:11:49.240 conflict has responded to. So one of the big successes 2:11:49.320 --> 2:11:53.040 of people like this has been effectively eliminating any kind 2:11:53.080 --> 2:11:58.040 of left wing support for liberatory movements in the Middle East, UM, 2:11:58.240 --> 2:12:01.320 for liberatory movements or for like just like what's happening 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:05.840 in Ukraine. It's kind of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh, 2:12:06.160 --> 2:12:09.960 if there's a movement for liberation among the people of 2:12:10.040 --> 2:12:13.040 a country, it's probably the c I a like like 2:12:13.160 --> 2:12:15.920 carrying out some sort of op um. That's Lynda and 2:12:16.040 --> 2:12:18.720 his people UM and people influenced by him have been 2:12:18.760 --> 2:12:21.640 a big part of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve 2:12:21.720 --> 2:12:25.120 Bannon is in and is so friendly with like some 2:12:25.280 --> 2:12:28.120 guys on like chunks that they call themselves the left 2:12:28.200 --> 2:12:32.200 and whatnot. It's because, um, there's there's a lot of uh, 2:12:32.440 --> 2:12:33.960 there's a lot of ties there, and that is an 2:12:34.000 --> 2:12:38.320 area in which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM, 2:12:38.680 --> 2:12:41.160 you know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like 2:12:41.240 --> 2:12:44.480 the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes 2:12:44.560 --> 2:12:48.360 that like these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah, 2:12:49.080 --> 2:12:51.080 I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of 2:12:51.160 --> 2:12:53.360 what I had to say. You guys want to know 2:12:53.480 --> 2:12:57.720 more about william S Lynd because he's I certainly want 2:12:57.800 --> 2:13:02.160 to learn more about Williams. William S Lynd cultural conservative, 2:13:02.280 --> 2:13:05.880 right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You 2:13:06.160 --> 2:13:10.720 want to guess who he considers his ideal leader? Uh 2:13:11.280 --> 2:13:14.560 jfk No, the House of Hogan's all learned. He's a 2:13:14.600 --> 2:13:26.080 Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, I mean politics. He's certainly 2:13:26.160 --> 2:13:29.480 into hegel and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian 2:13:29.760 --> 2:13:32.320 monarchy was the best government there ever was and was 2:13:32.440 --> 2:13:34.880 like unfairly crushed by the rest of the world, and 2:13:34.960 --> 2:13:37.040 like should have won World War One and everything would 2:13:37.640 --> 2:13:40.520 like he's he's and so he's he's very much like 2:13:40.720 --> 2:13:45.240 a conservative monarchist um and a weird kind because like, 2:13:45.800 --> 2:13:48.280 my god, dude, if you're looking at like monarchs who 2:13:48.320 --> 2:13:51.680 were like the Hogans all learn has had like in 2:13:51.760 --> 2:13:56.839 the modern era, like the first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent, 2:13:57.480 --> 2:14:00.040 but like it went to ship as soon as a 2:14:00.080 --> 2:14:02.280 help in the second and he blames all of World 2:14:02.360 --> 2:14:07.200 War One on the fucking tsars like it's it's very silly, 2:14:07.440 --> 2:14:10.560 like his ideas of history are like very stupid. I 2:14:11.000 --> 2:14:14.680 have an incredibly silly theory of history based on Hagel, 2:14:14.800 --> 2:14:18.320 which is that, like every everything Hagel. Briefly, for the 2:14:18.440 --> 2:14:23.000 listeners I know, do not, this is this is this 2:14:23.160 --> 2:14:25.040 is this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this is 2:14:25.160 --> 2:14:27.040 this is. This is my crank theory of history based 2:14:27.080 --> 2:14:30.040 on Hagel, which is that every about forty years someone 2:14:30.120 --> 2:14:33.640 attempts to apply Hagel, someone like takes charge of an 2:14:33.680 --> 2:14:36.640 incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to run it, 2:14:37.080 --> 2:14:40.640 and every single time they don't understand the dialectic and 2:14:40.640 --> 2:14:43.280 it doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if 2:14:43.320 --> 2:14:46.320 you can take this as a very granul level, right 2:14:46.360 --> 2:14:48.520 you have Mao Mao has no idea what a dialectic is. 2:14:48.520 --> 2:14:51.200 You can you can read Mao's work. He has no clue, 2:14:51.760 --> 2:14:53.960 Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't he doesn't 2:14:54.000 --> 2:14:55.680 get it. He thinks of a dialectic is when one 2:14:55.680 --> 2:14:57.600 person with a bat hits the other hits the other side, 2:14:57.640 --> 2:14:59.240 and then when you destroy the other side, the dialectic 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:01.600 is resolved. Right that that's not what it is, right 2:15:02.680 --> 2:15:08.160 Maw like, because of this, the entire Chinese revolution just implodes, 2:15:08.280 --> 2:15:11.400 everyone dies, it returns to capitalism. Is a complete failure, right, 2:15:13.520 --> 2:15:15.280 you know. And and like a lot of the Nazis 2:15:15.280 --> 2:15:18.400 are very much into Hagel. They have again incredibly similar failures. 2:15:19.360 --> 2:15:21.360 The other group people like Lynda think is part of 2:15:21.440 --> 2:15:23.680 this is that all of the people who planned the 2:15:23.760 --> 2:15:27.480 Iraq War were like enormous Regelian's right, but they've gotten 2:15:27.480 --> 2:15:31.160 to Hagel through this weird like they they've been doing this, 2:15:31.200 --> 2:15:32.680 they've been doing these kind of insurgency stuff and so 2:15:32.720 --> 2:15:34.360 but they're kind of insurgeny stuff. Was they read Mao 2:15:35.400 --> 2:15:37.040 and you know, so that they're so they're they're they're 2:15:37.040 --> 2:15:39.240 reading Hagel, but then they're also reading Hagel through Mao, 2:15:39.400 --> 2:15:41.440 and Mao doesn't understand what's going on either, And so 2:15:41.520 --> 2:15:44.080 when they try to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, Okay, well, 2:15:44.160 --> 2:15:45.600 the end of the end of the end of history, 2:15:45.640 --> 2:15:47.680 the end of the Hegelian dialectic is the United States. 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:49.520 We're just going to impose this on a rock and 2:15:50.000 --> 2:15:54.440 it catastrophic failure. So the war listening is do not 2:15:54.920 --> 2:15:58.880 attempt to apply Hagel, you will completely annihilate your entire 2:15:58.920 --> 2:16:02.440 political movements, like every every everything, everything you love and 2:16:02.600 --> 2:16:06.040 dream of everything, like every ideology you've ever had. Uh, 2:16:06.160 --> 2:16:08.720 it will, it will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you 2:16:08.760 --> 2:16:10.400 will watch your cities, and you watch your cities and 2:16:10.520 --> 2:16:13.080 Armi's burn. That's that's fine because the last time my 2:16:13.120 --> 2:16:15.680 resistance movement, we're just going to be postcanty and object 2:16:15.720 --> 2:16:20.960 oriented on ontologist guys. Throw a bunch of names, and 2:16:21.000 --> 2:16:23.880 I'm gonna get like of people are just why the 2:16:23.880 --> 2:16:26.000 funk am I hearing about these dead people? The thing 2:16:26.080 --> 2:16:28.080 I actually wanted to to bring up on this is 2:16:28.200 --> 2:16:32.320 like how fourth and fifth gen are the idea of 2:16:32.360 --> 2:16:35.400 the fourth and fifth gen get applied onto like more 2:16:35.480 --> 2:16:39.720 insurrection based um like revolts or groups. Right, you can 2:16:39.800 --> 2:16:43.640 see like groups like the Earth Liberation Fund and Animal 2:16:43.720 --> 2:16:46.400 Liberation Front kind of pick and shoes elements of the 2:16:46.440 --> 2:16:49.120 fourth and fifth generation were fair to kind of to 2:16:49.920 --> 2:16:53.800 see how their groups formed or were operated um. And 2:16:53.920 --> 2:16:56.600 even you could argue that like Ted Kazinski was like 2:16:56.680 --> 2:16:59.600 a fifth fifth generation warfare because he was completely autonomous 2:16:59.640 --> 2:17:03.200 and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea of fifth 2:17:03.280 --> 2:17:06.119 generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare, which 2:17:06.200 --> 2:17:09.760 was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept that 2:17:09.800 --> 2:17:13.600 has come up I believe Daniel Abbott is his name. UM, 2:17:14.040 --> 2:17:17.000 And the idea was that like it's a new type 2:17:17.040 --> 2:17:19.320 of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts in 2:17:19.320 --> 2:17:22.560 the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic um, 2:17:22.720 --> 2:17:26.680 but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering, 2:17:26.760 --> 2:17:29.520 misinformation sorry, or attacks not just like decentralized, but like 2:17:29.640 --> 2:17:33.600 states actually using UM organized and often fighting non state 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:36.640 actors who are using kind of the thing. Yeah, and 2:17:36.959 --> 2:17:39.840 this and a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence, 2:17:39.840 --> 2:17:42.840 fully autonomous systems systems not just botan nets, but like 2:17:42.959 --> 2:17:45.280 algorithms that can like handle a lot of the quote 2:17:45.360 --> 2:17:49.160 unquote fighting. UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of 2:17:49.200 --> 2:17:52.160 fourth generation, fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and 2:17:52.200 --> 2:17:56.560 he doesn't like anyone using the idea that sound every 2:17:56.600 --> 2:18:00.560 head of the dialectic. It keeps going. So what I was, 2:18:00.840 --> 2:18:04.240 what I was thinking, is like, is like a lot 2:18:04.360 --> 2:18:07.120 of you can apply fis generation warfare to like these 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:11.480 types of groups who are mostly like they do some 2:18:12.080 --> 2:18:15.240 they do some fourth gent tactics in terms of like terrorism, right, 2:18:15.320 --> 2:18:18.440 Like they try to make political statements through terrorism and 2:18:18.600 --> 2:18:23.480 have terrorism an influential thing, but they're demands like you 2:18:23.640 --> 2:18:26.760 rarely like fifth generation stuff has not been around a 2:18:26.840 --> 2:18:29.080 long enough and no one's really been super successful at 2:18:29.160 --> 2:18:32.360 it in the past enough time for us like to 2:18:32.480 --> 2:18:35.360 like recognize that, right, because you can look at a 2:18:35.480 --> 2:18:39.000 lot of a lot of like an insurrectionary type stuff 2:18:39.080 --> 2:18:41.360 around like the Again, I'm just gonna use the Earth 2:18:42.000 --> 2:18:44.040 Liberation Front as an example of like a group that 2:18:44.240 --> 2:18:48.760 attempted kind of these types of tactics, um and they 2:18:48.840 --> 2:18:50.800 may have succeeded in the physical sense, but they did 2:18:50.840 --> 2:18:54.960 not succeed in like the cultural sense. Really, um, So 2:18:55.560 --> 2:18:58.120 trying to like look at these types of things and 2:18:58.160 --> 2:19:00.680 how they relate to like specific that you know, if 2:19:00.680 --> 2:19:02.680 you're gonna use like the take Kazinski example, same thing, 2:19:02.720 --> 2:19:04.880 except he's not a group. He's just one person, which 2:19:05.000 --> 2:19:06.480 is kind of more of a fifth gen thinks he's 2:19:06.520 --> 2:19:09.600 like fully autonomous, whereas I think, um, you know, stuff 2:19:09.680 --> 2:19:11.600 like the e l F tried to have that kind 2:19:11.640 --> 2:19:14.320 of militant group dynamic that is more similar to fourth 2:19:14.360 --> 2:19:17.080 generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing of 2:19:17.200 --> 2:19:19.800 like trying to trying to do physical action than trying 2:19:19.840 --> 2:19:24.320 to do cultural action. And it's it's not like the 2:19:24.440 --> 2:19:28.480 things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some the 2:19:29.760 --> 2:19:34.160 defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just got 2:19:34.280 --> 2:19:37.400 um this is the specific action they were working on 2:19:37.480 --> 2:19:39.800 to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The 2:19:39.879 --> 2:19:43.560 judge of approved their approved their motion because they were 2:19:43.879 --> 2:19:46.680 they actually were successful because they did not form this 2:19:46.840 --> 2:19:50.160 militant thing right now, they were just doing the cultural 2:19:50.200 --> 2:19:53.280 and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to just 2:19:53.480 --> 2:19:55.880 you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try to 2:19:55.920 --> 2:19:58.760 get your action forward. So just trying to look at 2:19:58.800 --> 2:20:01.720 like examples of when when like the goal is kind 2:20:01.760 --> 2:20:05.039 of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain types don't. 2:20:05.280 --> 2:20:10.200 How that might influence like organizing and how to selectively 2:20:10.320 --> 2:20:13.320 use like insurrection, but have it not be like a 2:20:13.400 --> 2:20:17.200 default mode for like always your group is better if 2:20:17.240 --> 2:20:22.480 it's insurrectorary. M Yeah, And I one of the things 2:20:22.560 --> 2:20:24.800 that does characterize that I think is useful if we're 2:20:25.040 --> 2:20:28.880 because again I have my criticisms of the value of 2:20:28.959 --> 2:20:32.440 any of these like phrases as kind of discrete concepts. 2:20:32.520 --> 2:20:34.120 But one of the things that I think is useful 2:20:34.160 --> 2:20:37.000 about the concept of fifth generation warfare that does talk 2:20:37.000 --> 2:20:39.600 about something that is legitimately new to conflict that has 2:20:39.680 --> 2:20:43.680 not really existed before before the Internet is omnipresence UM. 2:20:43.840 --> 2:20:46.960 That that the conflicts are not limited in geographical space 2:20:47.160 --> 2:20:49.200 or in time, and in fact is like a constant 2:20:49.280 --> 2:20:52.320 factor all around you at all times because of the 2:20:52.360 --> 2:20:57.080 way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM. You know, 2:20:57.160 --> 2:20:59.240 you can look at kind of like the mix of 2:20:59.320 --> 2:21:04.000 street fight and information warfare, doxing and whatnot between fascists 2:21:04.000 --> 2:21:07.040 and anti fascists for the last few years. It's omnipresent. 2:21:07.120 --> 2:21:10.160 It's always going on UM, and the battle space is 2:21:10.240 --> 2:21:13.600 kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly rarely kinetic 2:21:13.720 --> 2:21:17.240 or physical UM. And I do think that that's an 2:21:17.280 --> 2:21:20.960 area in which, um, it is really worth having a 2:21:21.040 --> 2:21:22.760 new term and kind of defining a new term, because 2:21:22.800 --> 2:21:24.280 that's one of the few things I think that has 2:21:24.800 --> 2:21:27.680 legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this stuff 2:21:27.720 --> 2:21:30.320 that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM. But 2:21:30.440 --> 2:21:33.480 the thing that it's really created that was not present before? 2:21:33.640 --> 2:21:37.320 Is this the this omnipresence um. So I do think 2:21:37.360 --> 2:21:39.640 that that's really useful when we like, I would like 2:21:39.680 --> 2:21:42.000 to how conflict is different. I would like to kind 2:21:42.000 --> 2:21:45.959 of like think about like January six, within these frameworks, 2:21:46.080 --> 2:21:50.160 right of how of how disinformation and information was used 2:21:50.280 --> 2:21:52.720 relatively successfully to get a lot of people to actually 2:21:53.120 --> 2:21:56.920 move towards the more um you know, kind of backed 2:21:56.959 --> 2:21:59.920 by half the state, backed you know, not backed by 2:22:00.080 --> 2:22:03.960 well the larger majority. And yeah, how like it's a 2:22:04.080 --> 2:22:06.120 it's like a synthesis of the fourth generation of fifth 2:22:06.120 --> 2:22:07.760 generous ideas, which is why you know, there's a lot 2:22:07.760 --> 2:22:12.280 of overlap with these terms specifically um, but seeing how 2:22:12.400 --> 2:22:14.480 like one leads to another and it's not they're not 2:22:14.560 --> 2:22:18.920 necessarily alusion exclusionary. Yeah, I guess like the result is 2:22:18.920 --> 2:22:21.920 whether they win or lose. Right, that's that's like that 2:22:22.040 --> 2:22:24.480 that's what makes it a war? Is is the is 2:22:24.600 --> 2:22:28.760 the is like you decide afterwards based on the result. Yeah, 2:22:28.800 --> 2:22:31.080 I mean it kind of Yeah, that's certainly like how 2:22:31.320 --> 2:22:34.080 more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan, it wasn't so 2:22:34.200 --> 2:22:36.400 much like a clear like World War One. There's an 2:22:36.520 --> 2:22:39.080 armistice and like negotiated end of the war and at 2:22:39.080 --> 2:22:40.800 a certain date at all ends. It was a lot 2:22:41.640 --> 2:22:43.840 we haven't done that since we haven't done that for 2:22:43.920 --> 2:22:45.680 the state, Like you know, I've never known the States 2:22:45.720 --> 2:22:47.600 to do that for a month, because if you don't 2:22:47.640 --> 2:22:49.680 do that, you don't have to admit you lost. Yeah, 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:53.040 exactly right. If you just kind of like leave and 2:22:53.160 --> 2:22:55.920 ship gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be 2:22:56.080 --> 2:22:58.360 like for one thing, you can say like if we'd 2:22:58.400 --> 2:23:00.440 stayed and spend more money on that, or we could 2:23:00.480 --> 2:23:03.120 have we could have pulled it out, um, which is 2:23:03.160 --> 2:23:04.920 one of my Like there's a lot of great criticisms 2:23:04.959 --> 2:23:08.480 of how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year, 2:23:08.480 --> 2:23:10.240 a thousand of them. But at the end of the day, 2:23:10.280 --> 2:23:13.360 it's like it was never going to be good, Like 2:23:13.560 --> 2:23:15.879 it was always it was this horrible war. We were 2:23:16.000 --> 2:23:19.400 killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything. 2:23:19.480 --> 2:23:21.680 And that fact was made really clear by the fact 2:23:21.720 --> 2:23:24.720 that as soon as we pulled out our guns, Um, 2:23:25.160 --> 2:23:28.520 everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And 2:23:28.600 --> 2:23:30.680 you can needle around the edges of how we could 2:23:30.680 --> 2:23:33.360 have you know, better taken care of people who we 2:23:33.400 --> 2:23:35.240 had made promises to or whatever. At the end of 2:23:35.240 --> 2:23:37.000 the day, it was always going to be fucked because 2:23:37.360 --> 2:23:39.240 it was a thing we never should have done. And 2:23:39.320 --> 2:23:41.560 that's that. Like this idea that Lynde has it like, no, 2:23:41.640 --> 2:23:44.440 if we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine, 2:23:44.480 --> 2:23:46.800 we have better like we have that. One of his 2:23:46.879 --> 2:23:49.880 big ideas is UM. He came up with this concept 2:23:49.959 --> 2:23:52.640 called movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way 2:23:52.680 --> 2:23:55.680 the Marine Corps functions UM. And the idea behind movement 2:23:55.720 --> 2:23:58.560 warfare is like you should always have a bias towards action, 2:23:59.120 --> 2:24:02.640 and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this 2:24:02.760 --> 2:24:06.360 basically the evolution of a German tactic called ALP Drugs 2:24:06.360 --> 2:24:09.760 tact Tea, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So 2:24:09.959 --> 2:24:12.240 it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start 2:24:12.320 --> 2:24:14.880 to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't 2:24:14.879 --> 2:24:18.640 working great UM, and we should probably like figure out 2:24:18.720 --> 2:24:21.480 a way to get around these defenses. So they start 2:24:21.520 --> 2:24:24.240 training what are kind of the prototype of special forces, 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:27.080 These like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in 2:24:27.200 --> 2:24:29.240 and not be seen and jump into the trenches and 2:24:29.360 --> 2:24:33.640 like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns 2:24:33.720 --> 2:24:36.320 and um, fight in a way that like soldiers had 2:24:36.360 --> 2:24:38.160 not really fought in a long time. A lot of 2:24:38.240 --> 2:24:40.440 it was like melee was this really and there were 2:24:40.480 --> 2:24:42.360 a lot of technical things had to get around. Barbed 2:24:42.400 --> 2:24:44.080 wire had to not be seen, how to like deal 2:24:44.160 --> 2:24:47.640 with machine gun nests, um. And one of the keys 2:24:47.680 --> 2:24:50.520 to it was like the German started to retrain their 2:24:50.560 --> 2:24:52.480 soldiers to were like you have to have like these 2:24:52.560 --> 2:24:54.520 individual units of five and ten men have to have 2:24:54.640 --> 2:24:57.520 like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to have 2:24:57.600 --> 2:24:59.680 autonomy and they need to be will able to like 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:01.520 will tell them we need you to be in this 2:25:01.879 --> 2:25:03.879 this place at this point in time. But it's up 2:25:03.920 --> 2:25:05.440 to you to figure out how to do that because 2:25:05.480 --> 2:25:08.240 if you're if you've got this one guy who's three 2:25:08.320 --> 2:25:10.520 miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get mowed 2:25:10.520 --> 2:25:12.840 down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more nimble, um. 2:25:13.080 --> 2:25:14.800 And that's part of why in World War One, in 2:25:14.879 --> 2:25:17.600 in World War two, because the rest of the people 2:25:17.680 --> 2:25:20.160 fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not caught 2:25:20.280 --> 2:25:22.119 up to this kind of battle doctrine by the time 2:25:22.160 --> 2:25:24.320 World War Two was over, UM to the extent that 2:25:24.360 --> 2:25:26.080 the Germans had, And it's part of why there's such 2:25:26.120 --> 2:25:28.920 a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans in 2:25:29.000 --> 2:25:32.000 that war is they had what is very close to 2:25:32.040 --> 2:25:35.000 because all modern combat tactics are based on what the 2:25:35.040 --> 2:25:37.039 Germans started doing at the end of World War one 2:25:37.480 --> 2:25:39.840 UM and had really like nailed down to a science 2:25:39.879 --> 2:25:42.680 in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that, 2:25:42.800 --> 2:25:45.200 like we need to extend that and like that's the 2:25:45.280 --> 2:25:47.039 thing we've gotten too far away from and we need 2:25:47.120 --> 2:25:49.200 to have. You need to have like this bias towards 2:25:49.280 --> 2:25:52.600 movement and this the like officers need to be super 2:25:52.680 --> 2:25:56.440 aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options. 2:25:56.720 --> 2:25:59.800 And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show, 2:26:00.200 --> 2:26:04.400 this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights. 2:26:04.920 --> 2:26:07.160 But when was the last time the Marine Corps was 2:26:07.240 --> 2:26:09.320 on the side of a winning war. Like again, it 2:26:09.440 --> 2:26:11.640 doesn't we can all needle about how to make our 2:26:11.680 --> 2:26:13.960 troops better at like killing people, but at the end 2:26:13.959 --> 2:26:16.879 of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into 2:26:16.959 --> 2:26:19.720 wars that are not winnable, and that's not something you're 2:26:19.720 --> 2:26:22.880 going to fix with battle doctrine and doesn't understand that 2:26:22.959 --> 2:26:26.200 because he's a fascist. And I think it's just like this, 2:26:26.480 --> 2:26:29.600 this is the real like weakness of their politics, which 2:26:29.640 --> 2:26:31.840 is that was like yeah, well, like it's it's they're 2:26:31.840 --> 2:26:34.840 they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell the difference 2:26:34.879 --> 2:26:37.240 between war and like they don't think there's a difference 2:26:37.240 --> 2:26:40.200 between war and politics, right, and that means that they 2:26:40.240 --> 2:26:42.199 think that there's a military solution to every political problem 2:26:42.200 --> 2:26:43.920 and it's like, no, there's not, and like this is 2:26:44.040 --> 2:26:46.040 this is how this is why is how they keep 2:26:46.080 --> 2:26:49.360 destroying themselves, right, is that they you know, like like 2:26:49.800 --> 2:26:51.160 this is what happened to the neo cons. I mean 2:26:51.160 --> 2:26:52.480 the neo cons are sort of held on in this 2:26:52.600 --> 2:26:55.360 kind of rump shell, but it's like neo conservatism and 2:26:55.480 --> 2:26:58.400 how they're just project Yeah. But but it's like you know, 2:26:58.520 --> 2:27:00.920 like they don't they don't have like even the people 2:27:00.959 --> 2:27:03.480 who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore? 2:27:03.879 --> 2:27:07.240 Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah, 2:27:07.240 --> 2:27:09.520 And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained 2:27:09.520 --> 2:27:13.000 it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart, 2:27:13.240 --> 2:27:15.800 like trying to conquer a rock, and it's like they 2:27:16.320 --> 2:27:18.640 all do this. They all eventually are like, well, okay, 2:27:18.680 --> 2:27:20.160 well we'll find a military solution to this, and it 2:27:20.160 --> 2:27:22.120 blows up in their face because it turns out that, no, 2:27:22.360 --> 2:27:24.440 you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all 2:27:24.480 --> 2:27:29.840 the syndicates a general progression into the more metapolitics idea 2:27:29.879 --> 2:27:33.320 and cultures politics ideas that we're trying to solve all 2:27:33.360 --> 2:27:37.200 these political problems, like at least like locally within us, 2:27:37.240 --> 2:27:38.600 you know, we're trying to be trying to do them 2:27:38.680 --> 2:27:41.760 culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries, right 2:27:41.840 --> 2:27:45.280 because the more kind of the the idea of like 2:27:45.360 --> 2:27:47.959 let's just keep entering wars, which we're also doing at 2:27:47.959 --> 2:27:51.279 the same time, only very very like like very specific regions. 2:27:51.800 --> 2:27:54.080 But I mean the trend of like first, you know, 2:27:54.320 --> 2:27:56.400 like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's not really can 2:27:56.440 --> 2:28:00.200 Aniogon He preferred the cultural jamming like that was was 2:28:00.320 --> 2:28:03.080 his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in 2:28:03.200 --> 2:28:06.040 four years. And there there's an argument that lynd is 2:28:06.080 --> 2:28:09.520 a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda, 2:28:09.600 --> 2:28:11.320 even though I don't think he ever read his books. 2:28:11.360 --> 2:28:13.720 All the people he surrounded him with, where fans of Lend. 2:28:13.760 --> 2:28:15.880 There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like 2:28:16.000 --> 2:28:18.160 a copy of or at least Trump together with a 2:28:18.280 --> 2:28:22.400 copy of his book, um, which is titled, uh the 2:28:22.520 --> 2:28:25.760 Next Conservatism UM. And I'm gonna read a quote at 2:28:25.800 --> 2:28:29.080 this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for, 2:28:29.280 --> 2:28:33.840 that describes this book because it's it's uh useful. Um 2:28:34.480 --> 2:28:37.480 The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon 2:28:37.520 --> 2:28:39.400 way Rich, who's his co author on this, call a 2:28:39.520 --> 2:28:42.400 cultural called cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than 2:28:42.480 --> 2:28:45.680 mere policy, the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal 2:28:45.760 --> 2:28:48.920 and illegal immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust 2:28:49.000 --> 2:28:52.800 investments and domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in 2:28:52.840 --> 2:28:55.240 a less Trumpi in Vain. It also promotes homeschooling and 2:28:55.320 --> 2:28:57.800 incorporates some ideas of from the New Urbanism as part 2:28:57.840 --> 2:29:01.360 of a broader program called Retrocal Chure. Of its connection 2:29:01.440 --> 2:29:04.280 with Trump, lynd says the book runs parallel to what 2:29:04.400 --> 2:29:07.080 he has been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity 2:29:07.120 --> 2:29:11.240 with its more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that 2:29:11.440 --> 2:29:13.560 is going to be really unsettling. And this, I think 2:29:13.640 --> 2:29:15.920 is what lynd may actually be going for, rather than 2:29:15.959 --> 2:29:18.240 any kind of reform in the military to improve its 2:29:18.280 --> 2:29:21.560 ability to win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen four, an 2:29:21.640 --> 2:29:24.000 article appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and 2:29:24.040 --> 2:29:26.320 two of the authors of the nineteen piece, where he 2:29:26.360 --> 2:29:29.040 introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended on 2:29:29.120 --> 2:29:32.000 a dire note. The point is not merely that America's 2:29:32.080 --> 2:29:35.200 armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state conflicts 2:29:35.240 --> 2:29:38.240 and forces overseas. The point is that the same conflicts 2:29:38.280 --> 2:29:40.640 are coming here. The next real war we fight is 2:29:40.720 --> 2:29:46.880 likely to be on American soil. So that's what's going 2:29:47.000 --> 2:29:51.560 on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased towards 2:29:51.640 --> 2:29:54.360 action and increased killing power. If all you're really trying 2:29:54.400 --> 2:29:56.600 to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you using 2:29:56.640 --> 2:29:58.800 the military very quickly, well that might work for you. 2:30:00.000 --> 2:30:02.200 People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction 2:30:02.280 --> 2:30:05.520 book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like 2:30:05.720 --> 2:30:10.080 TV tropes, um, the there's a TV It's not just 2:30:10.200 --> 2:30:12.680 TV tropes anymore. Like there's a trope page from my 2:30:12.760 --> 2:30:16.039 book After the Revolution and it's directly compared to Victoria, 2:30:16.120 --> 2:30:19.080 as like they're the opposites of each other because Victoria 2:30:19.280 --> 2:30:22.000 is like a book about a civil war in the 2:30:22.200 --> 2:30:30.600 US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win 2:30:30.920 --> 2:30:35.320 and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the 2:30:35.440 --> 2:30:37.640 problem is that like like like all of these like 2:30:37.680 --> 2:30:41.440 the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists like leaders who 2:30:41.480 --> 2:30:43.880 get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they 2:30:43.920 --> 2:30:47.400 reintroduced to the to the society, and like California is 2:30:47.440 --> 2:30:50.960 so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um. 2:30:51.320 --> 2:30:54.640 And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um. 2:30:55.080 --> 2:30:59.040 And yeah, like it's it's all. So the person who 2:30:59.120 --> 2:31:02.199 wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's 2:31:02.720 --> 2:31:07.000 a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject 2:31:07.080 --> 2:31:17.360 of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong, 2:31:17.440 --> 2:31:19.880 but not that part. I know. But it's a fucking 2:31:20.120 --> 2:31:22.760 nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits of it. 2:31:23.080 --> 2:31:24.880 Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing. But 2:31:28.120 --> 2:31:30.119 that's that's the thing with all with all of these 2:31:30.240 --> 2:31:33.680 like cultural gamers, like they try to put on like 2:31:34.320 --> 2:31:37.680 war aesthetics, but all of them are the nerdiest fuckers 2:31:37.720 --> 2:31:43.360 he'll ever. He's so stupid, and I like all these 2:31:43.440 --> 2:31:46.800 guys are so they're so nerdy, all of them. Yeah, 2:31:47.120 --> 2:31:50.200 and like lynd, everything about him makes sense when you 2:31:50.320 --> 2:31:54.000 understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the 2:31:54.080 --> 2:31:59.120 fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a 2:31:59.200 --> 2:32:01.800 little but also like again, he was not lying about 2:32:02.000 --> 2:32:03.680 there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book. 2:32:03.680 --> 2:32:06.680 He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like 2:32:07.640 --> 2:32:10.960 pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and 2:32:11.040 --> 2:32:14.360 have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among 2:32:14.640 --> 2:32:17.400 like the American right. His books have been found in 2:32:17.520 --> 2:32:20.560 like al Qaeda hideouts and ship Like. He makes sense 2:32:20.600 --> 2:32:22.760 though that that that that like all of all of 2:32:22.840 --> 2:32:25.640 that really tracks is because yeah, like the the barrier 2:32:25.760 --> 2:32:29.039 between like terrorist action as a part of fourth generation 2:32:29.160 --> 2:32:31.760 and in some ways fifth generation warfare and then the 2:32:31.840 --> 2:32:35.039 type of like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand. 2:32:35.160 --> 2:32:37.280 Like that is like that is the goal of it 2:32:37.520 --> 2:32:39.800 is to make it work that way. So that doesn't 2:32:39.800 --> 2:32:42.000 surprise me that those types of terrorist groups would be 2:32:42.080 --> 2:32:45.040 reading his books for advice so or for like to 2:32:45.120 --> 2:32:48.640 like figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right, 2:32:48.680 --> 2:32:51.120 well that's probably enough talking about william S lind for 2:32:51.200 --> 2:32:55.880 today and cultural and the fourth generation, we'll talk There's 2:32:55.879 --> 2:32:58.240 a lot to dig into about how these ideas have 2:32:58.440 --> 2:33:01.160 influenced chunks of the right, how they're currently still being 2:33:01.280 --> 2:33:04.400 used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going on 2:33:04.560 --> 2:33:06.560 right now. And again I do think particularly the idea 2:33:06.600 --> 2:33:09.640 of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict. I 2:33:09.640 --> 2:33:12.280 would I would go as far as to say, like crucial. Um, 2:33:13.920 --> 2:33:17.080 so this is necessary background information to people to have, 2:33:17.200 --> 2:33:18.960 for people to have for like some of the other ship. 2:33:19.000 --> 2:33:21.520 We're going to be continuing to talk in this about 2:33:21.640 --> 2:33:24.360 in this series as we you know, as we talk 2:33:24.480 --> 2:33:27.720 more about kind of kinetic conflicts or at least building 2:33:27.760 --> 2:33:31.320 towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I think this is 2:33:31.720 --> 2:33:34.280 this is a useful kind of grounding. And now I'm 2:33:34.320 --> 2:33:37.680 going to send Chris and Garrison off to write an 2:33:37.720 --> 2:33:42.000 episode explaining who hegel is and everything he believed. I Yeah, 2:33:42.080 --> 2:33:44.160 it's gonna be great. You're gonna you're gonna hear you 2:33:44.400 --> 2:33:48.000 you will watch me go mad in real time. It's 2:33:48.000 --> 2:33:50.200 gonna be great. Yeah. The other option is I can 2:33:50.320 --> 2:33:52.760 just read the Wikipedia page for Hegel with like a 2:33:52.879 --> 2:33:58.080 really offensive German accent. That that's better than that. Actually better. 2:33:58.560 --> 2:34:01.080 I'm gonna go to I will. I promise you one thing, 2:34:01.160 --> 2:34:03.040 which is that I will wind up either Russian or 2:34:03.080 --> 2:34:05.480 Australian by the end. I can't stop that drift when 2:34:05.520 --> 2:34:09.120 I whenever I start doing. You know, I am a 2:34:09.200 --> 2:34:15.040 good chairman. Y'ah. My name is Mr Hegel, the absolute 2:34:18.440 --> 2:34:21.720 on media. We're gonna stop that right now. I probably 2:34:21.760 --> 2:34:32.000 should look for your children's eyes to see the true 2:34:32.080 --> 2:34:35.520 magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. 2:34:35.920 --> 2:34:38.800 You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled 2:34:38.879 --> 2:34:41.840 face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. 2:34:42.400 --> 2:34:45.440 They see treasure in pebbles, They see a windy path 2:34:45.640 --> 2:34:50.080 that could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. 2:34:50.280 --> 2:34:53.520 Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and 2:34:53.640 --> 2:34:56.640 start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to 2:34:56.680 --> 2:34:59.200 you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. 2:35:00.000 --> 2:35:03.680 I'm Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence on 2:35:03.840 --> 2:35:06.720 season two of Our podcast. We're exploring what it means 2:35:06.760 --> 2:35:09.320 to be a woman on social media. We're going into 2:35:09.360 --> 2:35:12.640 different pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is 2:35:12.640 --> 2:35:15.840 a reflection of all the weights that women are mistreated 2:35:15.879 --> 2:35:19.320 in our society, and we might just have a plan 2:35:19.520 --> 2:35:23.160 to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season 2:35:23.200 --> 2:35:26.080 two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on February 2:35:26.160 --> 2:35:29.120 ten on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 2:35:29.160 --> 2:35:43.040 wherever you get your podcasts. Oh Macron, great timing. M hm, 2:35:43.280 --> 2:35:46.680 I love Oh Macron. I'm Robert Evans. This is it 2:35:46.760 --> 2:35:55.680 could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison, 2:35:56.360 --> 2:35:57.440 What do you? What do you? How do you? How 2:35:57.440 --> 2:36:00.160 do you feel about? Oh Macron? This is the thing 2:36:00.200 --> 2:36:03.640 to do with the topic we're talking about. So this 2:36:03.840 --> 2:36:07.640 is this is an update. A few of right last 2:36:07.720 --> 2:36:12.000 week were earlier this week we discussed the uh the 2:36:12.080 --> 2:36:16.840 Trucker Convoy scheduled our episode recorded before the Truck Convoy 2:36:17.080 --> 2:36:19.200 for after the Truck Convoy had already done a bunch 2:36:19.240 --> 2:36:23.640 of things, which was really good. So we we recorded 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:27.160 to talk about the fifty trucks that were that we're 2:36:27.160 --> 2:36:30.560 going to show up at Ottawa and the thing things 2:36:30.640 --> 2:36:34.800 did happen, Maybe not that not because like I've been listening, 2:36:34.920 --> 2:36:37.240 some of their claims are like an Alex Jones is 2:36:37.280 --> 2:36:39.440 parenting there now that it was like eight hundred thousand 2:36:39.480 --> 2:36:42.240 to a million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers 2:36:42.240 --> 2:36:46.240 in all of Canada, like but it was like it 2:36:46.360 --> 2:36:47.800 was like it was a lot of people like not 2:36:47.959 --> 2:36:50.960 to not to downplay what happened. So we're going to 2:36:51.000 --> 2:36:53.120 give an update on what happened there and kind of 2:36:53.200 --> 2:36:55.680 discussed maybe any ramifications that stuff like this could have 2:36:55.760 --> 2:36:58.760 going forward. But to help with that, um, we have 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:03.879 Dan who came on last time to help discuss Hello, 2:37:04.040 --> 2:37:05.920 thank you for coming on again to talk about the 2:37:05.959 --> 2:37:09.280 same thing. Thank you for having me. We last less 2:37:09.320 --> 2:37:12.959 off with you saying that you hope I don't come 2:37:12.959 --> 2:37:15.480 back on again because that would be a good thing 2:37:15.520 --> 2:37:17.960 and it would mean that the bad things did not happen. 2:37:18.480 --> 2:37:22.800 So sorry to be here under such circumstances. Yeah, you 2:37:22.879 --> 2:37:27.320 want to go over the bad Yeah, So let's let's 2:37:27.400 --> 2:37:30.280 briefly do like a recap of like what this thing 2:37:30.720 --> 2:37:33.080 was like, like why why was it happening? And like 2:37:33.200 --> 2:37:36.040 what was the idea. When we last left Canada, a 2:37:36.120 --> 2:37:38.440 bunch of truckers were angry that they had to present 2:37:38.560 --> 2:37:43.800 evations evidence of vaccination. This spiraled and, as I'm understanding it, 2:37:43.920 --> 2:37:49.160 at some point then rejecting all public health measures. Yes. Actually, 2:37:49.280 --> 2:37:53.240 the the exact demands are for the federal and provincial 2:37:53.320 --> 2:37:56.640 governments to quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other 2:37:56.760 --> 2:38:02.320 obligatory obligatory vaccine contact tracing program uh, to terminate COVID 2:38:02.879 --> 2:38:06.440 vaccine mandates UH, and quote respect the rights of those 2:38:06.480 --> 2:38:09.720 who wished to remain unvaccinated UH. And here's where it 2:38:09.760 --> 2:38:14.320 gets weird. UH. Avisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with 2:38:14.400 --> 2:38:16.800 government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's 2:38:16.840 --> 2:38:21.400 fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures 2:38:21.480 --> 2:38:24.120 with the goal of censoring those who have varying or 2:38:24.280 --> 2:38:29.520 incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do 2:38:29.560 --> 2:38:37.480 you all know what a government is? Evidentitally I was 2:38:37.560 --> 2:38:41.240 at some debates in with the state that went a 2:38:41.280 --> 2:38:45.320 lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah, 2:38:45.360 --> 2:38:48.720 we we we can talk about that. This this the 2:38:48.800 --> 2:38:51.160 standoff has been well there's been just that it's been 2:38:51.200 --> 2:38:55.600 a standoff in that regard. So it seems like they've 2:38:55.680 --> 2:38:59.039 kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and threatened 2:38:59.160 --> 2:39:02.800 a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food, and 2:39:03.040 --> 2:39:07.359 that they left trash everywhere and set up a checkpoint 2:39:07.440 --> 2:39:09.480 on the border or just a blockade on the border. 2:39:09.480 --> 2:39:12.200 I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going 2:39:12.280 --> 2:39:15.039 on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy 2:39:15.160 --> 2:39:17.600 is an Alberta and coop right now, But I might 2:39:17.640 --> 2:39:20.000 be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It 2:39:20.120 --> 2:39:21.840 was something along the lines of we don't think there's 2:39:21.840 --> 2:39:24.600 like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:30.200 you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah, 2:39:30.320 --> 2:39:33.200 so a little after two pm t D on a 2:39:33.959 --> 2:39:37.720 lafter two thirty pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter 2:39:37.800 --> 2:39:40.480 slowly said in a press conference that quote, there may 2:39:40.560 --> 2:39:45.480 not be a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it 2:39:45.560 --> 2:39:49.720 really that easy? It's evidently it's that easy if you 2:39:50.640 --> 2:39:53.480 wait till kind of like the media has had a 2:39:53.600 --> 2:39:55.840 few days and most of the coverage is just like 2:39:57.560 --> 2:40:03.080 breaking bad things still happening. Uh so it's it's not great. 2:40:03.560 --> 2:40:06.040 So what what was the lead up on set? Right? 2:40:06.040 --> 2:40:08.160 Because they were all they were all all the trucks 2:40:08.240 --> 2:40:10.440 and caravans and stuff. We're supposed to rive on Saturday. 2:40:10.840 --> 2:40:13.280 What was the lead up on Saturday? Like? And like 2:40:13.400 --> 2:40:16.680 what what what happened like the actual first day? Yeah, 2:40:16.800 --> 2:40:22.080 so Saturday was technically the first day. Actually Friday. Throughout 2:40:22.120 --> 2:40:25.480 the day a lot of people started arriving. So the 2:40:25.560 --> 2:40:30.600 occupation has been we're recording now Wednesday. Um, it started 2:40:30.640 --> 2:40:35.520 on Friday and the main like the largest contingent of 2:40:35.640 --> 2:40:38.640 the convoy was staying overnight Friday night in a nearby 2:40:38.720 --> 2:40:42.200 town called Armfire west of Ottawa, and they moved in 2:40:42.320 --> 2:40:47.039 from Armpire to Ottawa on Saturday morning. At the same time, 2:40:47.160 --> 2:40:51.119 people converged from other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's 2:40:51.160 --> 2:40:55.160 east is Quebec, and to Quebec's east the maritime provinces, 2:40:55.680 --> 2:40:59.640 and three thousand people at least came from Quebec and 2:41:00.200 --> 2:41:03.160 so with the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming 2:41:03.200 --> 2:41:05.360 in from different parts. The day between Friday night and 2:41:05.440 --> 2:41:08.840 Saturday afternoon and Saturday was kind of the big day, 2:41:08.920 --> 2:41:13.800 the big party, Uh, the main point of contention and 2:41:13.920 --> 2:41:17.160 the main thing that happened was some major streets are 2:41:17.200 --> 2:41:20.560 gridlocked by vehicles moving into the city into the very 2:41:20.600 --> 2:41:23.879 crowded core of auto of my hometown and staying stationary 2:41:23.959 --> 2:41:27.400 on busy roads. Both commercial and residential roads are part 2:41:27.440 --> 2:41:30.680 of this. Driveways for both businesses and residences were blocked off, 2:41:30.840 --> 2:41:33.560 fire roads were blocked off, and wance roads are blocked off. 2:41:34.480 --> 2:41:38.320 Local businesses that stayed open had to close throughout the 2:41:38.400 --> 2:41:43.360 day Saturday, largely UH, some managed to not, and many 2:41:43.360 --> 2:41:45.520 of just stayed closed already because they knew what was 2:41:45.520 --> 2:41:49.800 going to happen, and this happened. Closures that happened on 2:41:49.840 --> 2:41:52.320 Saturday are mostly still going on today as I'm speaking 2:41:52.360 --> 2:41:56.439 to you Wednesday night. UH closures followed patterns of harassment, 2:41:56.560 --> 2:41:59.880 some alleged assaults which Rover mentioned before elso happened at 2:42:00.080 --> 2:42:04.360 homeless shelter in downtown Ottawa and pretty much everyone I've 2:42:04.400 --> 2:42:07.720 spoken to I've I've been in Ottawa visiting it to 2:42:07.760 --> 2:42:10.920 my hometown, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to who 2:42:10.920 --> 2:42:12.560 lives in the downtown core is that a slew of 2:42:12.640 --> 2:42:15.200 story since Saturday of either harassment at work or just 2:42:15.320 --> 2:42:18.040 harassment walking through the streets. And the worst part of 2:42:18.080 --> 2:42:19.840 it all is that right now there's not a clear 2:42:19.920 --> 2:42:22.320 ending in sight. What is it like on the ground 2:42:22.480 --> 2:42:24.280 there in terms of I know, there's like kind of 2:42:24.320 --> 2:42:26.960 like a blockade around the border. But they're like, what 2:42:27.080 --> 2:42:30.120 else is like around Ottawa? What's like? What? Like? What 2:42:30.320 --> 2:42:33.000 what is what's it like to walk around in these places? 2:42:33.080 --> 2:42:34.920 And like how big is the area that these people 2:42:34.959 --> 2:42:37.199 are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are 2:42:37.200 --> 2:42:39.800 they all sleeping in their trucks? Staying at hotels? What's 2:42:39.959 --> 2:42:42.760 like what's like the It's an excellent question. There's there's 2:42:42.760 --> 2:42:45.040 a mix of hotels were booked up the week leading 2:42:45.120 --> 2:42:48.120 up to the weekend. As as the new cycle kind 2:42:48.160 --> 2:42:51.279 of exploded, more and more people called into hotels in Ottawa. 2:42:51.360 --> 2:42:53.920 A lot of people actually brought tractors. People are also 2:42:54.000 --> 2:42:57.320 sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course, people have like 2:42:57.400 --> 2:43:01.080 family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're staying with um. 2:43:03.680 --> 2:43:06.000 It's a mix of everything. Actually, I know a guy 2:43:06.040 --> 2:43:08.600 who even his car was like blocked off in the 2:43:08.680 --> 2:43:10.840 parking lot. He has to parking because he's downtown. He 2:43:10.920 --> 2:43:13.960 doesn't have street parking or driveway parking like it's in 2:43:14.000 --> 2:43:16.520 a public lot, and he couldn't get his car out 2:43:17.520 --> 2:43:20.320 for over a full day because an RP camper set 2:43:20.440 --> 2:43:23.520 up near him and just blocked him off. So it's 2:43:23.520 --> 2:43:28.080 a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday, there's like 2:43:28.160 --> 2:43:30.120 a lot of partying, a lot of music, a lot 2:43:30.200 --> 2:43:33.320 of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit more chaotic 2:43:33.760 --> 2:43:36.600 and less condensed since then. And also the area is 2:43:36.879 --> 2:43:41.360 hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly as vehicles 2:43:41.440 --> 2:43:44.320 move out for one reason or another. Streets are kind 2:43:44.320 --> 2:43:48.040 of being retaken back organically by the city, but then 2:43:48.080 --> 2:43:51.039 sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back by the convoy. 2:43:51.320 --> 2:43:53.200 So the occupation has been a little fluid on some 2:43:53.240 --> 2:43:55.560 of the outside streets. Wellington's Street, which is the street 2:43:55.600 --> 2:44:00.120 outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been consistently occupied, to 2:44:00.200 --> 2:44:04.560 my knowledge, blocking off kind of not actually blocking off, 2:44:04.600 --> 2:44:07.600 but you have to walk past them as a pedestrian 2:44:07.640 --> 2:44:10.320 to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's where the kind 2:44:10.320 --> 2:44:11.960 of the core is, the action of the action is, 2:44:12.000 --> 2:44:15.000 and everything else spreads out from that. And near hotels, uh, 2:44:15.480 --> 2:44:18.000 there's a little more action because that's generally where people 2:44:18.000 --> 2:44:22.720 are staying how has members of parliament and like local 2:44:22.800 --> 2:44:26.400 politicians been reacting since Saturday. I know there was there 2:44:26.480 --> 2:44:29.000 was some videos of like I think one of the 2:44:29.120 --> 2:44:32.640 MP's from Alberta was giving an interview that gained some 2:44:32.800 --> 2:44:36.240 traction online. Um, but yeah, it's kind of curious, like 2:44:36.320 --> 2:44:39.400 how the like different government officials are talking about this. 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:43.440 I'm actually so glad you asked that because as of today, 2:44:44.200 --> 2:44:48.200 the divide in members of Parliament has actually led to 2:44:48.440 --> 2:44:52.960 some pretty incredible political ramifications. So last time we spoke, 2:44:53.000 --> 2:44:55.280 I think Arin O'Toole had just earlier in the day 2:44:55.800 --> 2:44:58.560 endorsed compoints that he'd be coming down. Arin o't tool, 2:44:58.640 --> 2:45:01.680 for those unaware, is the leader of the Conservative Party 2:45:01.680 --> 2:45:10.920 of Canada. He's a real, real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown? 2:45:12.000 --> 2:45:14.560 No one, No one could have seen that joke coming. 2:45:17.600 --> 2:45:22.760 Every every Canadian listener just like collectively roll. Yeah. So 2:45:23.840 --> 2:45:27.520 Aeron o't tool and just endorsed the convoy. He'd been 2:45:27.520 --> 2:45:32.520 getting some tough questions about it following everything we just 2:45:32.600 --> 2:45:35.440 talked about and more. Aerono's to will walk that back 2:45:36.320 --> 2:45:38.800 and said, you know, he didn't approve of the way 2:45:38.840 --> 2:45:41.200 that the convoy was acting in Ottawa. This led to 2:45:41.280 --> 2:45:44.240 a swift referendum on his leadership, and earlier today aerono' 2:45:44.320 --> 2:45:47.160 tool was voted out as the Conservative Party leader in 2:45:47.320 --> 2:45:52.600 Canada and that does have pretty big ramifications. I know, 2:45:52.760 --> 2:45:55.760 I talked about Erin o'tol a decent amount in my 2:45:55.959 --> 2:45:59.880 previous Canada episodes for codapp and here. Um, so yeah, 2:46:00.000 --> 2:46:03.000 it will be really interesting to see who, uh what's 2:46:03.240 --> 2:46:06.520 Do you have any idea of when the new person 2:46:06.680 --> 2:46:08.960 is going to try to get voted it? Like, when 2:46:09.560 --> 2:46:11.480 when do you think that process is going to happen 2:46:11.560 --> 2:46:14.400 to fill that spot. I'm actually not sure. I haven't 2:46:14.440 --> 2:46:17.280 looked up when it's gonna happen. It feels like there's 2:46:17.320 --> 2:46:20.320 been months before. Whether there's an intimaters of the Conservative Party. 2:46:21.120 --> 2:46:24.920 The main concern right now for those outside of Conservative 2:46:24.920 --> 2:46:28.120 politics is because Erin o'tool was considered relatively moderate. That 2:46:28.280 --> 2:46:31.040 you talked about in the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin 2:46:31.080 --> 2:46:35.160 O'Toole picked out Darren Sloan from the party for being 2:46:35.400 --> 2:46:38.880 pretty kit on donations from neo Nazi Paul Front on 2:46:39.000 --> 2:46:42.920 his campaign. Uh. Overall, like that's a pretty great thing 2:46:42.959 --> 2:46:44.879 that Erin o'tool that kicked him out of the caucus, 2:46:45.000 --> 2:46:49.880 like regardless of other elements of that leadership. Uh, there's 2:46:49.959 --> 2:46:54.800 worrying that that kind of won't be continued forward, especially 2:46:54.800 --> 2:46:57.480 because Sloan was also in the leadership race and Sloan 2:46:57.560 --> 2:47:01.880 has only gotten further right since then. It is just 2:47:02.320 --> 2:47:05.800 despite air no tools, not great aspects, which there are 2:47:05.879 --> 2:47:08.480 lots of. He did, he did, he did take it. 2:47:08.720 --> 2:47:12.920 He did kind of hold back some of the more 2:47:13.280 --> 2:47:18.600 problematic uh conservative like elements, whether that be you know, 2:47:18.760 --> 2:47:22.199 people from you know, from his own party, like like Derek, 2:47:22.600 --> 2:47:25.000 and then also keeping kind of the people's party stuff 2:47:25.040 --> 2:47:28.600 at bay Um. Yeah, and that will be an interesting 2:47:28.680 --> 2:47:33.560 kind of power struggle now, that will be something to observe. 2:47:34.520 --> 2:47:37.240 I think the thing that concerns me most about all 2:47:37.280 --> 2:47:40.840 of this is the implication of the implications for this 2:47:40.959 --> 2:47:43.960 is a tactic. We saw a version of this that 2:47:44.120 --> 2:47:48.400 was more limited in scope and time in Portland when 2:47:48.440 --> 2:47:52.280 this huge Trump caravan rolled through downtown, blocked off big 2:47:52.360 --> 2:47:55.840 chunks of downtown and like just maced and shot people 2:47:55.879 --> 2:47:57.920 with paintball guns at random, and it was kind of like, 2:47:58.840 --> 2:48:01.400 I think everyone there surprised at how many folks they 2:48:01.480 --> 2:48:04.560 got for it. Um, this is a much more evolved 2:48:04.920 --> 2:48:07.280 version of the same tactic. And it's kind of stuff 2:48:07.280 --> 2:48:08.680 we talked about in the season one of it could 2:48:08.680 --> 2:48:12.480 happen here. This idea of like people coming from these 2:48:12.920 --> 2:48:16.080 conservative majority areas in a place where the vast majority 2:48:16.080 --> 2:48:19.080 of people are liberal but centralized in the cities UM 2:48:19.280 --> 2:48:24.959 and blocking those cities off or otherwise disrupting their ability 2:48:25.080 --> 2:48:28.240 to transit UM, potentially their ability to get things shipped 2:48:28.280 --> 2:48:31.480 in like food UM, like their ability to use free 2:48:31.560 --> 2:48:34.200 movement UM. And we've seen pieces of this again in 2:48:34.240 --> 2:48:36.960 a bunch of places, and in Oregon during the wildfires, 2:48:37.000 --> 2:48:39.320 you had these rural communities setting up checkpoints and stuff 2:48:39.320 --> 2:48:41.840 looking for people from the cities that they could bill 2:48:41.879 --> 2:48:44.760 as Antifa. And it's this it's this world worrying trend 2:48:44.800 --> 2:48:47.040 for a couple of reasons. Number One, when you get 2:48:47.920 --> 2:48:50.640 ten people to do something like this, even if the 2:48:50.680 --> 2:48:53.560 city has hundreds of thousands of people, that's effectively too 2:48:53.640 --> 2:48:56.720 large a group to police UM. And the police don't 2:48:56.760 --> 2:48:58.880 want to police it anyway, so there's not even really 2:48:58.959 --> 2:49:01.720 an attempt to stop of them UM. And it's a 2:49:01.760 --> 2:49:05.360 way in which the vast majority of Canada, at least 2:49:05.360 --> 2:49:08.760 based on the polling I'm aware of. UM is not 2:49:09.080 --> 2:49:11.440 in support of the causes these guys are backing. Was 2:49:11.480 --> 2:49:16.440 it of the country supports some level of like vaccine mandates, um, 2:49:16.800 --> 2:49:18.960 if I'm remembering correctly the last one I read. So 2:49:19.040 --> 2:49:21.199 this is not a popular movement. It's not even super 2:49:21.240 --> 2:49:26.320 popular among the truckers, like the actual it doesn't matter 2:49:26.320 --> 2:49:27.920 how many people in the cities you can get. If 2:49:27.920 --> 2:49:30.640 you can get fifty people to do something like this, 2:49:31.000 --> 2:49:33.560 the police won't will not take action, and you can 2:49:33.840 --> 2:49:36.880 negatively impact the lives of a huge number of millions 2:49:37.240 --> 2:49:40.160 before it gets radical, right, that's when these guys are 2:49:40.240 --> 2:49:43.480 not coming in with guns with the express plan to 2:49:43.560 --> 2:49:46.760 eliminate people or trying to specifically block up food. They're 2:49:46.800 --> 2:49:49.560 just kind of sucking around now. But it's this kind 2:49:49.600 --> 2:49:52.120 of is this thing we've talked about where you have 2:49:52.440 --> 2:49:54.280 this is the thing in Canada and the United States 2:49:54.360 --> 2:49:57.480 you had liberals kind of outsourcing the protection of society 2:49:57.560 --> 2:50:01.360 to this group of increasingly heavily armed and aradiqualized people 2:50:01.400 --> 2:50:04.640 who are now in a lot of cases fascists. UM. 2:50:04.959 --> 2:50:08.800 And that means that when there's a problem with a 2:50:08.959 --> 2:50:12.280 large chunk of people who hate everything, you stand for 2:50:12.879 --> 2:50:15.840 the people that you have completely outsourced protection to are 2:50:16.200 --> 2:50:18.520 all unfavor of fucking with you because they hate you. 2:50:19.040 --> 2:50:22.040 And it's it's a problem in Oregon, It's going to 2:50:22.120 --> 2:50:24.880 be a problem in fucking New York City or whatever 2:50:25.120 --> 2:50:28.360 at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um, I 2:50:28.440 --> 2:50:30.440 don't know, am I am I off base here? Am 2:50:30.480 --> 2:50:32.520 I am? I am You're not on base at all? 2:50:32.760 --> 2:50:36.040 And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to 2:50:36.200 --> 2:50:38.959 really elaborate on past what you said the last time 2:50:39.000 --> 2:50:41.200 we spoke. I think, Robert, you said there's not a 2:50:41.240 --> 2:50:43.960 whole lot. It was what you said that could really 2:50:44.040 --> 2:50:48.360 really be done with the vehicle occupation tactic and unless 2:50:48.400 --> 2:50:50.040 a lot of people are willing to meet them with 2:50:50.120 --> 2:50:54.440 an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's 2:50:54.480 --> 2:50:58.600 an Ottawas. Ottawas a relatively large city in Canada. There's 2:50:58.640 --> 2:51:01.240 over a million people that live here. Also by land mass, 2:51:01.320 --> 2:51:04.119 I think the largest city in Canada, like east to west, 2:51:04.200 --> 2:51:06.840 it's it's very spread out, so it's a low population density. 2:51:07.120 --> 2:51:11.000 So even the affected area downtown is actually like pretty 2:51:11.040 --> 2:51:15.600 small in relation to the city itself, which is pretty 2:51:15.640 --> 2:51:18.320 unfortunate and like it's not a particularly packed downtown for 2:51:18.400 --> 2:51:21.800 a large sis downtown. I am. I am curious kind 2:51:21.800 --> 2:51:27.240 of on the violence aspect um has Like I know, 2:51:27.440 --> 2:51:32.240 there's been like um increase in death threats to members 2:51:32.280 --> 2:51:36.400 of parliament, like specifically liberal members of parliament, specifically liberal 2:51:36.520 --> 2:51:40.320 members of parliament who are women who are maybe not white. Um. 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:44.280 So I would curious see if if you have any 2:51:44.320 --> 2:51:46.840 more kind of information on that side of things, and 2:51:46.920 --> 2:51:49.720 then how how violence has popped up in a few 2:51:49.800 --> 2:51:55.920 places throughout the past like a week. Basically, Yeah, there's 2:51:56.000 --> 2:51:59.480 been a lot. So, I mean, even if you're going 2:51:59.560 --> 2:52:02.600 by what's reported like right now, there is by most estimates, 2:52:03.040 --> 2:52:05.600 under a thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very 2:52:05.640 --> 2:52:08.440 far spread out people as part of the convoy. As 2:52:08.480 --> 2:52:11.840 of yesterday, there's thirteen active police investigations. The police of 2:52:12.680 --> 2:52:16.200 the city the City of Ottawa said in the an Oppressor. 2:52:16.840 --> 2:52:19.440 We obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in 2:52:19.520 --> 2:52:22.280 anything this big, there's way more that's not being reported, 2:52:22.360 --> 2:52:28.000 not being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like 2:52:28.560 --> 2:52:32.120 these things are going to thirteen is going to be 2:52:32.200 --> 2:52:34.400 resultful of something bad. So some of the things that happened. 2:52:34.480 --> 2:52:37.720 Robert mentioned before the alleged assaults on a houseless person 2:52:37.800 --> 2:52:41.760 inside of Shepherds of Good Hope, in which a security 2:52:41.760 --> 2:52:45.480 guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was 2:52:45.680 --> 2:52:48.560 a house that deplayed displayed a rainbow flag outside of 2:52:48.600 --> 2:52:53.039 it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um, 2:52:54.080 --> 2:52:56.320 they're being we need to get a hundred thousand people 2:52:56.400 --> 2:52:58.840 together to throw their own poop back at these people. 2:52:58.920 --> 2:53:02.240 It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with fire? 2:53:03.360 --> 2:53:06.280 Is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from just 2:53:06.520 --> 2:53:11.680 a tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah, 2:53:11.680 --> 2:53:14.080 there's been suggestions all of our social media channels on 2:53:14.240 --> 2:53:16.840 like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught. 2:53:17.879 --> 2:53:20.280 Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence. So like what 2:53:21.000 --> 2:53:23.800 I think maybe some context that that isn't always known 2:53:24.400 --> 2:53:28.360 in Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in restaurants 2:53:28.640 --> 2:53:31.400 wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown following 2:53:31.400 --> 2:53:35.240 around the chron wave and a lot of people even 2:53:35.320 --> 2:53:37.760 coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to people 2:53:37.800 --> 2:53:41.000 on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know like 2:53:41.120 --> 2:53:43.480 when the restaurants around here opens, so we can like 2:53:43.560 --> 2:53:44.880 sit down for a meal. And I was like, there's 2:53:44.879 --> 2:53:46.680 no sitting down on auto this. So what people were doing, 2:53:46.720 --> 2:53:48.840 they were going inside cafe is like two burns and stuff, 2:53:49.080 --> 2:53:51.000 and they were just refusing to leave in eating their 2:53:51.040 --> 2:53:52.720 food there anyways. And if there was no seats, they 2:53:52.720 --> 2:53:55.480 were just like eating in line. It was also minus 2:53:55.520 --> 2:53:58.400 twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very very 2:53:58.440 --> 2:54:00.720 cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning, 2:54:01.440 --> 2:54:03.240 so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a 2:54:03.240 --> 2:54:05.400 lot of other options other than like swarm the malls 2:54:05.440 --> 2:54:07.280 and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main 2:54:07.360 --> 2:54:10.320 mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the 2:54:10.400 --> 2:54:14.160 day because it was not a safe place. So I 2:54:14.200 --> 2:54:19.600 already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence, 2:54:19.680 --> 2:54:22.560 but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless 2:54:22.600 --> 2:54:26.160 honking if you watch video footage from it, and even 2:54:26.200 --> 2:54:28.400 in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like 2:54:28.520 --> 2:54:32.120 I can hear honking in my background. Um. Some people 2:54:32.200 --> 2:54:35.080 allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an 2:54:35.120 --> 2:54:43.720 unknown soldier which is yeah, this isn't political. Is even 2:54:43.760 --> 2:54:45.520 the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's 2:54:45.680 --> 2:54:48.560 fun about this for these people, it's that they suck. Yeah, 2:54:48.600 --> 2:54:52.640 it's fucking it's just it's just fucking cooliganism. Uh And 2:54:52.920 --> 2:54:56.640 that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be a 2:54:56.720 --> 2:55:00.920 lot more stories coming out, for sure, U as things progress, 2:55:01.280 --> 2:55:03.800 um of stories of harassment, Like I've talked to people 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:07.360 who have gotten a cat call in the night. People 2:55:07.440 --> 2:55:11.240 getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are going 2:55:11.320 --> 2:55:13.200 to break out. It's kind of at a very tense 2:55:13.280 --> 2:55:15.560 point right now. And Auto we're at that point. We're like, Okay, 2:55:15.680 --> 2:55:19.440 we're seeing some signs like pops getting thrown at the houses. 2:55:20.720 --> 2:55:24.800 What's gonna happen next? Because the police are saying they 2:55:24.840 --> 2:55:27.119 don't have a plan, and the truckers are saying they're 2:55:27.120 --> 2:55:32.039 not leaving. What's it like outside of Bottawa, across across 2:55:32.080 --> 2:55:35.000 all the other places where there's like similar activity happening. 2:55:36.000 --> 2:55:38.240 They're all looking to us and being concerned. From what 2:55:38.360 --> 2:55:42.439 I'm talking to, Uh, anti fascists and Alberta are particularly 2:55:42.560 --> 2:55:48.400 concerned right now with the coop protests. There's ongoing to uh, 2:55:49.440 --> 2:55:53.840 I keep seeing popping up like US Canada border activities. 2:55:53.840 --> 2:55:57.600 In the same there's a few attempted convoys by Americans 2:55:57.640 --> 2:55:59.959 and even before in Europe there was a few attempts. 2:56:00.080 --> 2:56:02.480 Some got turned away. Some Americans got turned away the 2:56:02.520 --> 2:56:08.800 Canadian borders. They weren't vaccinated. H Yeah, which is you know, 2:56:09.160 --> 2:56:13.600 like it's like you think, because that's the reason they're 2:56:13.600 --> 2:56:16.760 saying they're protesting, they would have remembered that and thought 2:56:16.840 --> 2:56:20.520 maybe that's gonna like come into play, But I don't. Yeah, 2:56:20.520 --> 2:56:22.520 I don't know, because there is a certain point where 2:56:22.800 --> 2:56:25.160 if you get enough people going, it would be interesting 2:56:25.200 --> 2:56:27.240 to see people really do just try to like drive 2:56:27.320 --> 2:56:31.879 through the border. M Yeah. And I mean there's been 2:56:31.959 --> 2:56:33.959 people like you look at social media channels, a lot 2:56:34.000 --> 2:56:35.920 of them saying like the borders are blocked right now 2:56:36.040 --> 2:56:38.640 with thousands of truckers supporting our cause. So if you 2:56:38.720 --> 2:56:40.200 saw that and you believed it, and then you went 2:56:40.240 --> 2:56:41.959 to the border and your turn away reading a vaccine, 2:56:41.959 --> 2:56:43.400 you meant thought, well, I thought I had you know, 2:56:43.560 --> 2:56:46.480 nine people the same causes being we're ready to use 2:56:46.560 --> 2:56:48.959 for us, which begs the question, but what happens when 2:56:49.000 --> 2:56:52.680 you do exactly. I don't want to find out. Yeah, 2:56:52.760 --> 2:56:56.640 that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if 2:56:56.720 --> 2:56:58.920 they do, if they did have what they say they had, 2:56:59.240 --> 2:57:01.080 would they just start doing those things and not even 2:57:01.160 --> 2:57:02.640 think about it and not even think about like the 2:57:02.800 --> 2:57:06.200 politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah. 2:57:06.440 --> 2:57:08.880 I should also mention too, we talked last time about 2:57:10.879 --> 2:57:15.160 a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were 2:57:15.320 --> 2:57:19.680 broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh, 2:57:19.800 --> 2:57:21.680 and it came out the news to do was first 2:57:21.720 --> 2:57:23.800 reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian 2:57:23.800 --> 2:57:26.640 Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up 2:57:26.680 --> 2:57:30.720 striges in No Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he 2:57:30.920 --> 2:57:34.080 was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jonestones 2:57:34.760 --> 2:57:39.040 Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah, 2:57:39.160 --> 2:57:41.800 Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program, 2:57:42.240 --> 2:57:45.480 So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great, that's 2:57:45.480 --> 2:57:48.800 what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond 2:57:49.000 --> 2:57:53.000 the conservative leadership? What other kind of political implications are 2:57:53.080 --> 2:57:56.480 people thinking about in Canada? It's really tense seeing what's 2:57:56.480 --> 2:57:59.200 gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a 2:57:59.280 --> 2:58:02.920 second wave some other people in other places that kind 2:58:02.920 --> 2:58:04.160 of didn't think the first one is going to be 2:58:04.280 --> 2:58:06.200 huge success. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation, 2:58:06.280 --> 2:58:09.240 we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave. 2:58:09.760 --> 2:58:13.240 It's a very tense place right now. We don't really 2:58:13.280 --> 2:58:17.680 know what to do. Community places are taking direct community 2:58:17.920 --> 2:58:21.360 members are talking about taking direct action because it's been 2:58:21.400 --> 2:58:23.640 so long. This isn't something that the city of Otta 2:58:23.800 --> 2:58:27.760 is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so 2:58:27.879 --> 2:58:31.440 the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming 2:58:31.600 --> 2:58:35.960 is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number. 2:58:36.000 --> 2:58:38.280 I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thou people 2:58:38.959 --> 2:58:41.200 into a city of over a million, which isn't really 2:58:41.280 --> 2:58:43.000 that many when you think about it, but the strategy 2:58:43.160 --> 2:58:47.080 was very, very effective. You think about how many fighters 2:58:47.160 --> 2:58:49.960 it took for Josh to take control of mosl it 2:58:50.360 --> 2:58:53.280 if people if there's not resistance, like there's only really 2:58:54.000 --> 2:58:56.000 a few areas of a city that you need to 2:58:56.160 --> 2:58:58.600 occupy in order to have a great deal of control 2:58:58.680 --> 2:59:02.000 over what can be done. Yeah, and that's the tough 2:59:02.040 --> 2:59:03.680 part is they have a lot of control over that 2:59:03.800 --> 2:59:06.040 small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot 2:59:06.120 --> 2:59:11.640 of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah. 2:59:11.879 --> 2:59:14.440 I've also just to see has the Canadian military said 2:59:14.480 --> 2:59:19.279 anything about these protests and the situation. So the Ottawa 2:59:19.320 --> 2:59:21.280 Police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot 2:59:21.320 --> 2:59:24.280 about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying 2:59:24.520 --> 2:59:27.879 he doesn't think military is the only option, which if 2:59:27.959 --> 2:59:30.520 you're an activist on the other side of things and 2:59:30.640 --> 2:59:33.920 worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that 2:59:34.200 --> 2:59:36.480 might be a good thing to hear. Yea and a 2:59:36.600 --> 2:59:40.439 see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military 2:59:40.879 --> 2:59:44.600 would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa 2:59:44.720 --> 2:59:48.200 had other police forces coming to They said they're spending 2:59:48.240 --> 2:59:51.840 eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh, initially to just 2:59:52.440 --> 2:59:56.600 costing police. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws, 2:59:56.640 --> 2:59:59.240 only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing 2:59:59.280 --> 3:00:03.320 started in the ocupied zone. So it's it's unclear what 3:00:03.360 --> 3:00:05.360 a lot of them did other than you know, keep 3:00:05.440 --> 3:00:08.400 up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around, I saw 3:00:08.560 --> 3:00:11.040 York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's 3:00:11.120 --> 3:00:15.920 hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence, 3:00:16.320 --> 3:00:18.400 especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had 3:00:18.440 --> 3:00:22.520 plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I 3:00:22.600 --> 3:00:25.840 thought it would die later, or a mixture of all 3:00:25.920 --> 3:00:29.920 the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some 3:00:30.080 --> 3:00:32.520 police officers have not been happy with it, but there 3:00:32.560 --> 3:00:34.400 hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no 3:00:34.440 --> 3:00:36.280 one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like 3:00:37.520 --> 3:00:40.400 from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the 3:00:40.480 --> 3:00:43.600 auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken, 3:00:44.720 --> 3:00:49.280 some saying otherwise, it's not really united right now. And yeah, 3:00:49.920 --> 3:00:53.480 it's scary. Is there any counter protests being planned for Ottawa? 3:00:55.480 --> 3:00:57.480 If I knew, i'd say so, because by the time 3:00:57.600 --> 3:00:59.360 this errors, they would have happened. So I think you'd 3:00:59.400 --> 3:01:03.840 be safe to talk talk about. But fortunately I'm not 3:01:04.000 --> 3:01:06.280 really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it might not 3:01:06.360 --> 3:01:11.640 be the best person to ask. Yeah, we're keeping an 3:01:11.680 --> 3:01:17.840 eye out. Well. The good news is that all men die, 3:01:18.160 --> 3:01:21.280 and so long as men die, liberty will never perish. Right, 3:01:21.520 --> 3:01:25.440 that's good it's an upside. That is an upside, it's 3:01:25.440 --> 3:01:29.480 an up positive shot. All right, Well, that's gonna do 3:01:29.600 --> 3:01:32.000 it for us. We'll keep an eye on this and 3:01:32.280 --> 3:01:36.400 um what what results from it, because it's all pretty concerning, 3:01:36.760 --> 3:01:40.160 um and worth having having an eye. And I'm particularly 3:01:40.280 --> 3:01:43.240 curious is to just like what kind of direct community 3:01:43.879 --> 3:01:46.520 responses to this develop because I think that's going to 3:01:46.600 --> 3:01:49.320 wind up being the only long term solution. You know, 3:01:49.360 --> 3:01:52.440 It's kind of what people saw in Portland that you 3:01:52.720 --> 3:01:54.800 there's a there's a degree to which like the only 3:01:54.920 --> 3:01:59.600 thing that really works as a response is is outnumbering them. Yeah, 3:02:00.040 --> 3:02:03.720 on that note, it might be maybe not the smoothest transition. 3:02:03.920 --> 3:02:06.960 But there are actually some Autowa mutual Aid funds and 3:02:07.120 --> 3:02:10.400 then Advocate Secrets that are doing some some cool stuff. 3:02:10.920 --> 3:02:14.120 And there's there's too many of the list for everyone, 3:02:15.240 --> 3:02:18.000 but others have compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to 3:02:18.000 --> 3:02:21.039 you there so ROSE Ottawa, which stands for Rainbow Autowa 3:02:21.080 --> 3:02:24.640 Student Experience as there's two s l G B t 3:02:24.879 --> 3:02:28.800 q I A plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin 3:02:29.360 --> 3:02:32.039 on a Shnave territory. Though they have closed op donations 3:02:32.120 --> 3:02:34.800 for themselves following a wonderful spike recently. They have a 3:02:34.879 --> 3:02:37.600 list of black lead and black empowering organizations on their 3:02:37.600 --> 3:02:39.720 website with donation links and you can reach that at 3:02:39.879 --> 3:02:44.280 Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh, there's a cool 3:02:44.320 --> 3:02:47.400 little Instagram account called transis Beautiful O T T O 3:02:47.520 --> 3:02:49.440 T T stands for Ottawa and that's all one word. 3:02:49.720 --> 3:02:52.480 It's been plugging small fundraisers for queer folks affected by 3:02:52.480 --> 3:02:56.119 the Convoy, including housing support on their Instagram. Again, that's 3:02:56.200 --> 3:03:00.520 transis Beautiful O T T on Instagram. Uh. Something we 3:03:00.640 --> 3:03:03.760 didn't get to talk about, which is ram Ranch Ram 3:03:03.879 --> 3:03:06.600 Ranch dot c A r A n dash Ranch dot 3:03:06.720 --> 3:03:08.920 c A a website was set up in the name 3:03:08.959 --> 3:03:12.520 of trolling the convoy zelo chats and has been doing 3:03:12.680 --> 3:03:15.560 a fantastic job about there's a whole army of trolls 3:03:15.600 --> 3:03:19.280 in the Trucker's elo chats and it's been really entertaining 3:03:19.400 --> 3:03:22.160 to tune into. They've compiled the list of charities on 3:03:22.240 --> 3:03:24.600 their website. You can check that out at ram dash 3:03:24.800 --> 3:03:27.560 Ranch dot c A and clicking on the Rancher's donation 3:03:27.680 --> 3:03:32.760 zone and yeah, where can where can people find you? 3:03:32.959 --> 3:03:35.360 On the Internet. People can find me on the Internet. 3:03:35.440 --> 3:03:40.360 I'm super active on Twitter at at spineless L where 3:03:40.360 --> 3:03:47.640 it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully, hopefully this 3:03:47.959 --> 3:03:51.039 gets all resolved and I don't need to fly up 3:03:51.080 --> 3:03:54.760 to Canada to go to a protest, and if if 3:03:54.840 --> 3:03:56.400 we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting to go 3:03:56.480 --> 3:03:58.400 to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can, we can? 3:03:58.760 --> 3:04:03.280 We can uh take drugs at to Morton's. Would Yeah? God, 3:04:03.480 --> 3:04:06.279 you know, I haven't vomited in a tim Horton's bathroom 3:04:06.800 --> 3:04:11.080 in a long time. Our local McDonald's that got famous 3:04:11.160 --> 3:04:14.080 on the internet for fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon 3:04:14.160 --> 3:04:16.800 out of their backpack during had to actually stop being 3:04:16.840 --> 3:04:19.440 twenty four hours after the mayor pleaded with them because 3:04:19.480 --> 3:04:22.800 it was using up too many police resources. That is 3:04:22.840 --> 3:04:29.600 the best kind of place in a year. That's so dope. 3:04:29.800 --> 3:04:35.000 Oh god, yeah, I wanna. I want to set up 3:04:35.120 --> 3:04:37.960 somewhere on the border in the East coast to tim Horton's, 3:04:38.040 --> 3:04:40.760 directly across the street from a waffle house and just 3:04:40.959 --> 3:04:46.520 let them fight. Well, yeah, we we do. We we 3:04:46.600 --> 3:04:48.920 do this. That here, that's that's you'll have to bring 3:04:49.000 --> 3:04:50.320 that for you have to bring that over, bring a 3:04:50.320 --> 3:04:52.880 waffle house fives over. All you need to do is 3:04:52.920 --> 3:04:55.640 watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually you're at 3:04:55.680 --> 3:05:01.680 a waffle house. That that ties back to the future 3:05:01.720 --> 3:05:07.480 of the convoy. You're right, well, that doesn't for us today, everybody, 3:05:08.080 --> 3:05:22.920 when people'll see you later. Hey, we'll be back Monday 3:05:23.080 --> 3:05:25.959 with more episodes every week from now until the heat 3:05:26.040 --> 3:05:28.560 death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a 3:05:28.600 --> 3:05:31.480 production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool 3:05:31.520 --> 3:05:34.119 Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com 3:05:34.320 --> 3:05:36.039 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 3:05:36.040 --> 3:05:39.440 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:05:39.440 --> 3:05:42.160 find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 3:05:42.160 --> 3:05:45.400 cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. 3:05:47.800 --> 3:05:51.640 The art world it is essentially a money laundering business. 3:05:52.120 --> 3:05:54.680 The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You 3:05:54.800 --> 3:05:57.959 know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. 3:05:58.600 --> 3:06:03.160 I'm Out Like Baldwin and is a podcast about deception, greed, 3:06:03.320 --> 3:06:06.840 and forgery in the art world. I just walked in 3:06:07.040 --> 3:06:11.520 and saw this bright red painting, presuming to be a 3:06:11.600 --> 3:06:16.199 Rothko of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money 3:06:16.280 --> 3:06:19.640 to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to 3:06:20.000 --> 3:06:22.800 what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible 3:06:23.080 --> 3:06:27.400 mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. UM. 3:06:29.360 --> 3:06:32.680 Listen to art fraud on the I Heart Radio app, 3:06:32.720 --> 3:06:36.320 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.