Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History
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Speaker 1: r e a k e er dot com. Get paid
Speaker 1: to talk about the things you love. I'm j Calburn,
Speaker 1: host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a
Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges
Speaker 1: and even helped a hit man walk free until one
Speaker 1: day when he started talking with the FBI and promised
Speaker 1: that he could take the mob down. I've spent the
Speaker 1: past year trying to figure out why he flipped and
Speaker 1: what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on
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Speaker 1: of New Girl? Plus you'll hear hilarious stories like this
Speaker 1: that was one of your things you brought back from
Speaker 1: yea all professional basketball players. Yeah, listen to the Welcome
Speaker 1: to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know.
Speaker 1: This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the
Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and
Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to
Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been
Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gotta
Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make
Speaker 1: your own decisions. What a all right? The show started, Garrison. Hey,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Canada again, so yeah, um
Speaker 1: and to discuss Canada and politics and the happenings here.
Speaker 1: We have another journalist who writes for I Believe Anti
Speaker 1: Hate Canada and like the Canadian Anti Hate Network and
Speaker 1: also Vice. I Believe Right, I've written for Vice. I'm
Speaker 1: currently researching full time and extremism researcher for It's a
Speaker 1: new initiative called the Online Hate Research and Education Project.
Speaker 1: It's actually partnered with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and
Speaker 1: it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center, which
Speaker 1: might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited for
Speaker 1: you guys to get into a twit their fight with
Speaker 1: James Lindsay. I can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has
Speaker 1: joined us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a
Speaker 1: few messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's
Speaker 1: in Alberta called me a few days ago to talk
Speaker 1: about this thing that's happening. So it's been it's it's
Speaker 1: I'm getting a lot of things, and it's definitely worth discussing,
Speaker 1: specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using
Speaker 1: around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand
Speaker 1: it to Dan to talk about what like how did
Speaker 1: this thing, like what is it? And how did it
Speaker 1: kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone,
Speaker 1: by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single
Speaker 1: person's mother in the entire country is called using about it.
Speaker 1: I just got another message literally right now, like literally
Speaker 1: this second. It's gonna nothing. Moms of Canada have been activated.
Speaker 1: Moms in Canada, I've been activated, but not in exactly
Speaker 1: the same way that they're being perceived to be. So
Speaker 1: the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I might get into
Speaker 1: a little bit later, but I'm kind of like against
Speaker 1: even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah. It was started
Speaker 1: on January and by a former Wigsit party now called
Speaker 1: the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and a group of
Speaker 1: like very active far right grassroots protesters. You do a
Speaker 1: lot of organizing like this, uh, and most of them,
Speaker 1: most of their activities kind of go back to tea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah, like this,
Speaker 1: I mean there's links to people that have been doing
Speaker 1: it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now, but
Speaker 1: a non binding motion against U I think it's a
Speaker 1: M three. A few years ago really mobilized people, and
Speaker 1: it's kind of been more consistent since then of the
Speaker 1: same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked
Speaker 1: about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how
Speaker 1: we got to that point and now like those same
Speaker 1: people are still kind of behind what's going on right now.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all
Speaker 1: the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um and
Speaker 1: Canada a truckers and so this thing was kind of
Speaker 1: originally organized by some like known far right figures and
Speaker 1: the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which
Speaker 1: kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It
Speaker 1: just morphed, right, morphed into a very strong anti vax
Speaker 1: of presence in Canada right now, the antibacks movements getting
Speaker 1: a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run by
Speaker 1: these guys who were doing we Exit, which is like
Speaker 1: West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for
Speaker 1: Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest
Speaker 1: of Canada's too liberal. Um, so we Exit and the
Speaker 1: Elves have really changed all of their focuses into this
Speaker 1: anti vax thing as a way to do recruiting, and
Speaker 1: they've prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to
Speaker 1: Ottawa UM for few specific reasons, which I think Dan
Speaker 1: probably knows a little bit more about than I do.
Speaker 1: Like I I know the gist of it, but you've
Speaker 1: been focused on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess the main reason is it works um like
Speaker 1: just from the perspective of getting attention and being able
Speaker 1: to get a message out. UM. There's been a lot
Speaker 1: of traction on this that these scripts don't normally get.
Speaker 1: I think the last trucker convoy UM that was done
Speaker 1: under this sort of umbrella, it had like nine I
Speaker 1: think was the total amount of like trucks that made
Speaker 1: it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to
Speaker 1: be done and it was basically the same demands and
Speaker 1: the same reasons. So this one was started on January
Speaker 1: and it didn't get that much fuzz the first couple
Speaker 1: of days. The original goal was set at a hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once
Speaker 1: it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first
Speaker 1: million pretty fast. In ways that like these fundraisers really
Speaker 1: really don't. Like the last big one we saw in
Speaker 1: Canada that was quite alarm me in that fast cap
Speaker 1: out under four thousand dollars and that was um for
Speaker 1: a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests last
Speaker 1: year and uh ended up getting like all it's it's
Speaker 1: a bad door shut down. So there's a lot more
Speaker 1: money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser
Speaker 1: which was supposed to go like hand in hand with
Speaker 1: these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that
Speaker 1: they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're
Speaker 1: not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into
Speaker 1: Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type
Speaker 1: thing because they're saying that they were not going to
Speaker 1: do our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off
Speaker 1: access to these roads um until this mandate is is removed. Now.
Speaker 1: Of course, the funny thing here is that the mandate
Speaker 1: that to enter to not being allowed to enter the
Speaker 1: States to do your trucking roads, that's not a mandate
Speaker 1: by Canada that's done, but that like that's the rule
Speaker 1: in the United States because you're entering the United States.
Speaker 1: They're the States is actually the ones to being the
Speaker 1: block edge. The government has no control over this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not actually the thick. The way
Speaker 1: to get the message out and support is incredibly effective
Speaker 1: because something I think like percent there was a survey
Speaker 1: recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like
Speaker 1: really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to
Speaker 1: kind of get that like support and like a lot
Speaker 1: of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting.
Speaker 1: It starts with four chain of tea, but it's getting
Speaker 1: revived a lot again now of people posting like empty
Speaker 1: grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently posted
Speaker 1: an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails to
Speaker 1: try to like change the laws, it turned out to
Speaker 1: be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh.
Speaker 1: And there's been like even like the stores themselves have
Speaker 1: had to come out and make statements being like we're
Speaker 1: not we're not empty. We have we have like we
Speaker 1: are in the process if we restocking. That's up in
Speaker 1: the US to where it's like we're literally emptying that
Speaker 1: shelf to move stuff from storms. We've had really bad
Speaker 1: snowstorms for a lot of the real photos of like
Speaker 1: empty shelves and it's just like, oh no, the salads
Speaker 1: tap out and the store just make a statement. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we had two snowstorms a day in a row on
Speaker 1: our truck. But like the narrative that they're trying to
Speaker 1: push is like these these mandates are causing these shortages
Speaker 1: um and and the propaganda is working even though it's
Speaker 1: all on a false premise, because first of all, it's
Speaker 1: not like that that those aren't that that's not causting
Speaker 1: that the second of all, complainingly to Canada's that's not
Speaker 1: Canada's not the one who's making the restrictions and the
Speaker 1: States are the one that's that's blocking from doing this.
Speaker 1: But but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's
Speaker 1: that's not the reason why you're getting all these people
Speaker 1: driving to Ottawa because there is a lot of people.
Speaker 1: There's not many trucks, but but there is there is
Speaker 1: a decent amount of people. You know, it's that that
Speaker 1: are that are going this because it's not it's not
Speaker 1: actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like
Speaker 1: seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that
Speaker 1: has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing
Speaker 1: the fundraisers what like like like over six million dollars now, um.
Speaker 1: And it's it's not like it's just what it actually
Speaker 1: is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go
Speaker 1: to the capital and cause problems, right. That that's what
Speaker 1: they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is
Speaker 1: for a lot of a lot of the like explaining
Speaker 1: why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands
Speaker 1: like have been put out and they would be even
Speaker 1: more confusing like to read than like some of them
Speaker 1: are there. A couple of the most recent ones are
Speaker 1: just very general like stop this divisive nature that our
Speaker 1: government is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but
Speaker 1: it's it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sangital
Speaker 1: groups involved. One they say they won't leave until Trudeau
Speaker 1: steps down. Others say at one point said until every
Speaker 1: politician stopped down, stepped down. I think that was when
Speaker 1: before someone kind of pushed in more realisticals into the movement.
Speaker 1: But like in terms of like what they're talking about,
Speaker 1: for like the rhetoric surrounding it. We're seeing a lot
Speaker 1: of rhetoric around the sentence being like we this can
Speaker 1: be our version of January six, but like they're saying
Speaker 1: that like in a good way, like that's that's the
Speaker 1: thing that at least some of the organizers, And then
Speaker 1: it's being carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is
Speaker 1: that this this should be our own version of this,
Speaker 1: which is which is interesting on a few ways, but
Speaker 1: like also like this would not have been said like
Speaker 1: seven months ago, but it's being said now, which means
Speaker 1: like there's been a shift in how January six is
Speaker 1: being viewed. There was this initial like really distancing and
Speaker 1: now it's like it's becoming almost like more acceptable to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that it was maybe a good thing in your eyes.
Speaker 1: And it's like that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's
Speaker 1: been going on. But then it's also concerning on just
Speaker 1: like a regular level to be like, yeah, these people
Speaker 1: wanted these people are saying they want to do their
Speaker 1: own January six. That has obviously physical implications for all
Speaker 1: these people trying to drive to Ottawa do either blocking
Speaker 1: off roads or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a coast streamer or a streamer in what's called the
Speaker 1: Plaid Army, and now that's sometimes kind of just being
Speaker 1: rebranded as like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can
Speaker 1: get into more, but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of their own, they're their own issue
Speaker 1: for later. Yeah, they're their own issue. But it was
Speaker 1: one of their streamers who is very tangently connected to
Speaker 1: like a lot of the the far right people that
Speaker 1: are involved in this protest movement leaning up to and
Speaker 1: in fact Pat King, who was officially one of the
Speaker 1: organizers of the convoy until he wasn't and then he
Speaker 1: was again. That was a whole dramatic thing for a day,
Speaker 1: like he streamed alongside Plaid Army guys before. Um so
Speaker 1: someone on Plaid Army said, and I would quote I
Speaker 1: would like to see our own January six event, see
Speaker 1: some of those truckers plow right through that sixteen football
Speaker 1: and on January that was put up on CTV News
Speaker 1: made Alive, and it's kind of scared a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think. At that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer
Speaker 1: had already voiced support for the convoy there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of other like members of Parliament stuff voicing support
Speaker 1: for the convoy. Uh, some of whom really didn't seem
Speaker 1: to know like what was involved and really just kind
Speaker 1: of heard Tenant like in passing, Oh it's against these
Speaker 1: mandates and I opposed these mandates too, and it's like,
Speaker 1: if I think it's the true DEALU base well, side on,
Speaker 1: it's gonna help you. You're gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's completely true. So have they actually started like blocking
Speaker 1: roads or is it just a bunch of random people
Speaker 1: driving down to like driving So there's there's a few
Speaker 1: differently converging points of the convoy. I think I would
Speaker 1: say probably the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to kind of keep track. Uh started in British Columbia
Speaker 1: and it's going So for this, I'm sure not everyone
Speaker 1: knows like math for Canada. So like here, just Columbia's
Speaker 1: like our west coast. That's our our California. UM, and
Speaker 1: Ottawa is it's close to the west and it's in Ontario,
Speaker 1: but it's on the border of Quebec and Ontario, and
Speaker 1: that's where our parliament is. That's our capital city. So
Speaker 1: it's coming from every which way, but I think the
Speaker 1: largest contingent comes from British Columbia and it just basically
Speaker 1: goes eastward to Ottawa, picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's, it's it's heading in that direction. Um,
Speaker 1: how do we know about I know some people have
Speaker 1: kind of already some people have kind of already sort
Speaker 1: of arrived in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected
Speaker 1: to more arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording
Speaker 1: this Thursday night, so this episode will probably come out
Speaker 1: on Monday. Um, people are expected to arrive on Saturday
Speaker 1: is the day that next. People are expecting like everybody
Speaker 1: to be there at least have an understanding of it.
Speaker 1: The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um, there are people like
Speaker 1: coming from further east who are like staying overnight in
Speaker 1: town and kind of just showing up the Parliament events.
Speaker 1: So like, by by all accounts, the Parliament show will
Speaker 1: probably be a lot bigger than the so far. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet, numbers nor like
Speaker 1: what what they actually really plan on doing once they
Speaker 1: get there, because it's been so much talking about like
Speaker 1: why this got started. And what's the like driving motivational factors? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like their their goal is to get to a place
Speaker 1: and do a thing, and and that's the Yeah, the
Speaker 1: thing is that's it's mostly unclear. And I have seen
Speaker 1: discussions about like blocking on like doing like trying to
Speaker 1: assemble like a trucking strike. Um, and then like blocking
Speaker 1: off accesses so that the government is forced to obey
Speaker 1: their demands or else like the country will shut down. UM.
Speaker 1: Then some people maybe are just kind of doing it
Speaker 1: as a one day protest. It's it's it again, it
Speaker 1: is it is. It is pretty unclear, but people are
Speaker 1: headed to their UM, what what is the what is
Speaker 1: the numbers? At least from where we can see like
Speaker 1: online and stuff. So their numbers have been the number
Speaker 1: of trucks. Yeah, fifty people became fifty trucks very quickly. UM.
Speaker 1: And that same number I think Rogan repeated it, I know,
Speaker 1: said yeah, yeah, Joe Rogan said it. THEO Fleury one
Speaker 1: on Laura Ingram and repeated the fifty thousand number. He said,
Speaker 1: fifty thousand truckers, not trucks specifically. UM. As far as
Speaker 1: I know, THEO Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and
Speaker 1: it's just a fan and it is just repeating some
Speaker 1: numbers that like organizes themselves have kind of echoed. Um.
Speaker 1: This is also complicated for me because this is very
Speaker 1: troubling in a lot of ways. But also I'm a
Speaker 1: huge fan of the song Convoy, so this is really devastating.
Speaker 1: Please continue, It's all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It
Speaker 1: protest movement has kind of happened doing this in February
Speaker 1: of Kelly and Farcas, who's like a mainstay of the
Speaker 1: anti mask, anti VAXX movement. Uh. And in between when
Speaker 1: I'm talking about and right now actually dated Pat King
Speaker 1: for a while, who's kind of the most uh outspoken
Speaker 1: person organizing the current convoy claimed that a hundred thousand
Speaker 1: people were coming to Parliament for what was then like
Speaker 1: an anti mask demonstration. Before the event, data will look
Speaker 1: changed to fifty uh. And I was actually there, it
Speaker 1: looked closer to like two people. I had friends that
Speaker 1: had counted like hundreds and seventy people, so not quite
Speaker 1: fifty uh. For all intents and purposes, the current one
Speaker 1: will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism along the way
Speaker 1: have estimated up to like four hundred people so far, um,
Speaker 1: including I think fifteen trucks outside the bass Pro shop
Speaker 1: in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted. Side note, if
Speaker 1: nothing else, got to give them points for stopping at
Speaker 1: bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty sweet bas Pro.
Speaker 1: Do you love a good bass Pro shop? My favorite
Speaker 1: is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah, obvious, Nashville, baby,
Speaker 1: So the bass Pro in Toronto, if you're ever in town, Robert,
Speaker 1: it's the only place around that I've been told that
Speaker 1: sells sub sonic twenty two rounds. So if you're like
Speaker 1: in the woods, so I feel like in the woods,
Speaker 1: but like you don't want to like scare your neighbors
Speaker 1: because the woods aren't bad. Big Yeah. I used to
Speaker 1: have some friends and I used to go shooting in
Speaker 1: a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical. Don't don't
Speaker 1: do that. Definitely it was there was it was legal,
Speaker 1: Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not. I don't endorse them,
Speaker 1: might have. Might have to cut this part out for
Speaker 1: regional sharing. Go leave this all late, just a bunch
Speaker 1: of words, make it nonsense with bleeping please continue. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so only fifteen trucks were counted by CBC at that point.
Speaker 1: Um and like videos and stuff have been right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there might be a couple dozen slightly short. But I
Speaker 1: think by the time Bobby Saturday, I think there's a
Speaker 1: decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks
Speaker 1: to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like
Speaker 1: five hundred, all of the media footage will look like
Speaker 1: there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to
Speaker 1: be able to show the extent of them realistically. And
Speaker 1: then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want
Speaker 1: to do. Some people just want to do the function
Speaker 1: up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition
Speaker 1: of like what the most of the anti like vacs
Speaker 1: anti mask protests in Canada have been, which have been
Speaker 1: pretty big, But it's been it's been, it's been mostly
Speaker 1: standing with signs. UM so it is it is it?
Speaker 1: It is really unclear because again, most of the truckers
Speaker 1: in Canada probably are not going to be there nor
Speaker 1: to necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right
Speaker 1: because they're pressing the their their whole initial issue is
Speaker 1: not even based on an actual like thing. So it
Speaker 1: is I'm not sure how many people are really gonna
Speaker 1: show up because I don't know even how specific it
Speaker 1: is to an issue. UM one. One just really interesting, funny,
Speaker 1: interesting thing that I thought about is like with with
Speaker 1: some of these people you know talking about you know,
Speaker 1: going to Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are
Speaker 1: dropped with the entire government resigns. Like these people who
Speaker 1: are talking about this like block engine shortage and stuff
Speaker 1: are also like the same people who get very angry
Speaker 1: and Indigenous people for blocking off roads and trails um
Speaker 1: for like oil and pipeline protests. A lot of them, yeah,
Speaker 1: some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending
Speaker 1: and stuff like pat King. Back in September, Um kind
Speaker 1: of went on like a kick where he just let
Speaker 1: a lot of people believe he was Indigenous and claimed
Speaker 1: someone not correct them that is that is weird, and
Speaker 1: a family member of him went on Facebook and like
Speaker 1: bombarded people with information that he was not in fact Indigenous,
Speaker 1: and it was all very weird and a lot of
Speaker 1: people held them to comments in the past where he
Speaker 1: talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: that is. I think Pat pat King probably deserves his
Speaker 1: own little deep dive on one of the pods. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, like it's it is like with all the
Speaker 1: people talking about blockheads and stuff all you most of
Speaker 1: them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um
Speaker 1: it is. It is uh yeah, like you're you're talking
Speaker 1: about all these things and like there's really big pro
Speaker 1: oil sentiments and all of the in all of this
Speaker 1: crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial
Speaker 1: and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's
Speaker 1: been more like a symbol to just represent their general
Speaker 1: kind of upsettedness at the way at the way things
Speaker 1: are going for them. It's interesting to me. So when
Speaker 1: I first heard about this, my I was I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers and
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But
Speaker 1: it's like it's interesting to me, like how few people
Speaker 1: they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a
Speaker 1: large number of truckers like that. It's get Yeah, it
Speaker 1: looks like a lot of like vehicles when you when
Speaker 1: you see like footage photos and videos like like in
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook
Speaker 1: groups of just people just like sharing pictures and photos
Speaker 1: of the rally of the convoy passing through their talent
Speaker 1: and like it's like what Robert said, like it's here
Speaker 1: when it fills up both sides of the camera and
Speaker 1: you have a wide depth of field, it looks huge
Speaker 1: and it's it's really hard to count. Uh. The money
Speaker 1: is preposterous. Also, side note on on the money um
Speaker 1: The funds were frozen a few days ago on the
Speaker 1: twenty five, but today one million dollars was released back
Speaker 1: to them because they gave go fund me a pretty
Speaker 1: clear plan allegedly according to go fund me for for
Speaker 1: how they're gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's
Speaker 1: it's I think it's like six point seven million now,
Speaker 1: so the rest of the five point seven million I
Speaker 1: think is still frozen. Okay, well it is. It is,
Speaker 1: so it is so much money. Uh yeah, we should
Speaker 1: do something like that. They could They could actually buy
Speaker 1: truck nuts for a dred and fifty thousand truckers, which
Speaker 1: is the most I've seen them. Guests, truckers are coming.
Speaker 1: They could buy it all or truck nets off Amazon
Speaker 1: for all of them and still have the vast majority
Speaker 1: of their funds left over. Yeah, but see that would
Speaker 1: be an act of actual heroism, and they're not going
Speaker 1: to do that. The reason why I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right,
Speaker 1: acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying
Speaker 1: to go into an urban area and block off like
Speaker 1: trade routes essentially, um. And then I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like
Speaker 1: the fact that this is happening is divorced from any
Speaker 1: kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance
Speaker 1: is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It
Speaker 1: just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural
Speaker 1: or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen.
Speaker 1: And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be
Speaker 1: like coherent um. And then escalation people driving here doing
Speaker 1: this thing. And then I know there was this one interview,
Speaker 1: um I forgot on what news channel, but they interviewed
Speaker 1: this one trucker guy part of a part of this
Speaker 1: con part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.
Speaker 1: Um and he's he said, um, I advocate civil war.
Speaker 1: If people don't want to step up, we have guns,
Speaker 1: will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out.
Speaker 1: But like, so that's the quotes, like in the fact
Speaker 1: that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in
Speaker 1: relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal
Speaker 1: here is being like people fantasize about Canada's being a
Speaker 1: place to escape, you know, like Canada is like the
Speaker 1: other from the States, and like, no, it's the same,
Speaker 1: Like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism.
Speaker 1: There is no really there's no real away right now
Speaker 1: in terms of there's no safe ground. It can spread
Speaker 1: to where you are and for people living in Canada.
Speaker 1: When you have people on the news on like Global
Speaker 1: News saying I advocate civil war within the context of
Speaker 1: this of this like, um, you know, convoy movement, it
Speaker 1: is it is an actual thing worth paying attention to.
Speaker 1: It is an actual problem of it's it's huge and
Speaker 1: earlier today and I might pronounce his name on but
Speaker 1: Dale Manuk, doc from CBC Toronto, tweeted a story because
Speaker 1: he on behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of
Speaker 1: the convoy. They have different regional organizers and and their
Speaker 1: website list them all um and it had Patking funny
Speaker 1: side dot it had pack King listed as an organizer
Speaker 1: while they're go fund me had a statement saying they
Speaker 1: had no connection to him, which was very funny. But yeah,
Speaker 1: So CBC Toronto contacted them and the guy responded, enough
Speaker 1: lies you quote slate blooded trader. Evil will get its
Speaker 1: due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah,
Speaker 1: after it, back, yeah, after it, back and forth, very
Speaker 1: brief back and forth. Uh, and just like a couple
Speaker 1: of questions. Uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you
Speaker 1: toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place
Speaker 1: under the guys of public health. You can't be that
Speaker 1: dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti
Speaker 1: vacks movement is tied to far right politics with in
Speaker 1: Canada and it's like been like the driving force of
Speaker 1: far right politics for the past two years and it's
Speaker 1: gotten so much larger. Um. It is like it is,
Speaker 1: it is. It is a thing like when when you
Speaker 1: have when you have people on camera saying we want
Speaker 1: to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about
Speaker 1: not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped,
Speaker 1: and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's it is. It is a thing that could
Speaker 1: happen there, And that's kind of why I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Is like, yeah, when I have my
Speaker 1: mother calling me dozens of messages from random people like
Speaker 1: worried about this, then yeah, it's it is an issue,
Speaker 1: like I've it's it's it's not it's not not a thing. O.
Speaker 1: The rhetoric is so universal against uh anyone they perceived
Speaker 1: to be leftist too, that it is really dangerous. Like
Speaker 1: there's been a little bit of talk of like counters
Speaker 1: in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are this big, like
Speaker 1: there's no safe weight for people to to stop that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, especially when all all the vehicles are
Speaker 1: on that side. Like it's a it's dangerous. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like I was
Speaker 1: looking today the People's Party of Canada's they got like
Speaker 1: five percent of votes in our last selection. They had
Speaker 1: a little bit of a scandal, uh during our election,
Speaker 1: which is at the end of last year. Um, where
Speaker 1: a writing director for I think it's am. It's the
Speaker 1: great area of London. It is Elgin, Middle six, London,
Speaker 1: so they're they're writing directors and not their member of
Speaker 1: parliament writing. Um was revealed to uh post like sculpt
Speaker 1: mask not tea memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader
Speaker 1: of his own party, to Hitlert, so like probably not
Speaker 1: a negative comparison, Um, And he was not fired for it,
Speaker 1: but he was fired after it came out that he
Speaker 1: was being charged for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He actually, he recently said on a live stream he
Speaker 1: was asked he was currently on trial and he said yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean as far as I know, Like he's been
Speaker 1: posting images of like trucks running people over and that's
Speaker 1: just like one connection to h to the legitimacy of
Speaker 1: it all, Um, Like you, I mean the plat army guys,
Speaker 1: the ones who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet,
Speaker 1: they're also connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on
Speaker 1: their podcast before, who's a sitting politician and a member
Speaker 1: of provincial parliament, which is kind of like our state
Speaker 1: senate equivalent. Over here. Um, they've they've had him on
Speaker 1: and like there there's some like legitimacy to it, um
Speaker 1: getting on and when you just talk about the broad
Speaker 1: movement in general. Former Conservative Party of Canada leader Andrew Shear,
Speaker 1: who had kind of a rocky departure from the party
Speaker 1: because he alleged leaves campaign funds to pay for his
Speaker 1: kids private school. So I not like he had already
Speaker 1: signed on and endorsed and been interviewed. Erin O'Toole, the
Speaker 1: current leader of the of the Conservative Party ah just
Speaker 1: today actually h said he was going to engage with them.
Speaker 1: Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packrins McDonald sent an
Speaker 1: email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker convoy protests
Speaker 1: and quoting Justin Link's twitter here, there have been attempts
Speaker 1: to collect mpeas home addresses. As such, the Sergeant at
Speaker 1: Arms is advising to avoid the rally and go somewhere safe.
Speaker 1: That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole, who said I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted later tomorrow,
Speaker 1: I will be meeting with truckers. A tool announces right
Speaker 1: after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the pro us entirely.
Speaker 1: So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will
Speaker 1: probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk
Speaker 1: about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean,
Speaker 1: they showed up, they protest, and they conticipated if we're
Speaker 1: following this up in a few days with another episode,
Speaker 1: that that be something bad happen. But again, even even
Speaker 1: at this point, it is still worth talking about in
Speaker 1: terms of like the generally like this is like this
Speaker 1: is the kind of like the net of why this
Speaker 1: is so important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like,
Speaker 1: when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming
Speaker 1: from an outside and moving into a city, there's very
Speaker 1: little that can be done against them. Um, like, there's
Speaker 1: not there's not really much of an effective counter other
Speaker 1: than trying to get another massive people in cars to
Speaker 1: confront them, and that's, um, you know, a potentially dicey situation.
Speaker 1: So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it
Speaker 1: used all over the United States too, like, and it's
Speaker 1: this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this
Speaker 1: is kind of the earliest step in taking that is
Speaker 1: is this is gonna be the last time people try
Speaker 1: to extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and
Speaker 1: like applicable nous as like an act of like an
Speaker 1: act of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency,
Speaker 1: whatever whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because
Speaker 1: like a lot of these other interesting thing about the
Speaker 1: States compared to Canada is like the States we have
Speaker 1: like we have like an actual like far right movement,
Speaker 1: like we have like we have like conservatives, when then
Speaker 1: we have like the far right movement in Canada. That
Speaker 1: that distinction is not much of a thing. A lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of there is. There is some far
Speaker 1: right figures trying to push stuff forward, absolutely, but a
Speaker 1: lot of like the space in between conservative far right
Speaker 1: is kind of a little bit more fluid. Like a
Speaker 1: lot of these people who are showing up are not
Speaker 1: like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives,
Speaker 1: but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a
Speaker 1: civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude.
Speaker 1: He's not a member of any kind of political thing.
Speaker 1: He's it's like it's that is just that is just
Speaker 1: kind of what this culture on the western side of
Speaker 1: Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost
Speaker 1: when when you start going into this kind of like
Speaker 1: anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main
Speaker 1: their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that
Speaker 1: is what they are. So anything that gets to that
Speaker 1: point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is
Speaker 1: like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau,
Speaker 1: then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another
Speaker 1: distinction in the state that there's a thing in the
Speaker 1: Canada that I don't really see as much in the States.
Speaker 1: It's very familiar to me when you talk about how
Speaker 1: anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like
Speaker 1: that that is I think a worthwhile comparison. And because
Speaker 1: there were a lot of American conservatives who could get
Speaker 1: in bed with anybody if they were staying against Hillary
Speaker 1: or Bill um cool stuff. Well, this is all fun.
Speaker 1: I hope to not talk with you about this again, Um,
Speaker 1: but there is a chance there is a chance people
Speaker 1: have conversations, um if you wouldn't want to after af
Speaker 1: this episode airs, if people want to see what happened,
Speaker 1: right because this this air is probably Monday, um, and
Speaker 1: the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they
Speaker 1: find work talking about this, whether that be like your
Speaker 1: Twitter feed or um if you know, if any you
Speaker 1: know articles are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM.
Speaker 1: I can't make any promises because safety is always a
Speaker 1: thing and I won't to know what it looks like
Speaker 1: until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My
Speaker 1: Twitter is at spineless L. That's the word spineless and
Speaker 1: then just the letter L. So yeah, you can check
Speaker 1: in on his account to see if he has a
Speaker 1: thread by the time this episodes out. Um, And yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how that's how you can kind of figure out
Speaker 1: what happened if you're just listening to this now and
Speaker 1: then in the time, there'll be a lot of Attawa
Speaker 1: media covering it if you just want to see the fallout.
Speaker 1: I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work might talk about
Speaker 1: it more. They put on an article today on it
Speaker 1: that that covers more of the kind of problems that
Speaker 1: the far right that we talked about today than the
Speaker 1: most other media will go into. They did. Uh, that
Speaker 1: was a very good article. And then also today um
Speaker 1: I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers.
Speaker 1: So just in terms of let's just as as a
Speaker 1: good example, I think this situation is a really great
Speaker 1: way to start thinking about politics and culture UM and
Speaker 1: how they relate to each other, and how this type
Speaker 1: of thing succeeds and how it succeeds UM and why
Speaker 1: this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many
Speaker 1: people in Canada and raising six million dollars almost seven
Speaker 1: million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show
Speaker 1: one more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh,
Speaker 1: I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's
Speaker 1: at fineless out the word spineless is then I don't
Speaker 1: have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter,
Speaker 1: thank you plug your get her account. You're getting wow yeah,
Speaker 1: real real get our user vibes coming off of Dan
Speaker 1: the only social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at
Speaker 1: and said, Robert's just trying to get me to plug
Speaker 1: my sock puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off.
Speaker 1: You could follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard
Speaker 1: dot c a of anyway that is uh that that
Speaker 1: doesn't for our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah,
Speaker 1: convoys Canada Can't Can't Escape excellent. If you're having what
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Speaker 1: your podcasts. It's the New Year's again. Whoa. Yeah, welcome,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special
Speaker 1: special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here,
Speaker 1: a podcast that he is today just about well, it's
Speaker 1: still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it
Speaker 1: do it? Do a special luniar Year's episode and spend
Speaker 1: some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and how
Speaker 1: what sort of being a part of the Chinese diaspora
Speaker 1: in sort of in the US and Canada is like,
Speaker 1: and you know how how that how the influence is,
Speaker 1: how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what
Speaker 1: we're sort of proud of? Um. And with me to
Speaker 1: talk about this, we have j n who I think
Speaker 1: first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it
Speaker 1: works with claus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor.
Speaker 1: Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming.
Speaker 1: And we also have Jane She who is a queer
Speaker 1: Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and
Speaker 1: Bisquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what is
Speaker 1: falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor,
Speaker 1: and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, Welcome,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Um just wanted to share that it's Muscuiam squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 1: I Fortunately I do not live up north and so
Speaker 1: my my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than
Speaker 1: they are for the tribal dames that are around me.
Speaker 1: So my apologies. No where is nowhere. So al right,
Speaker 1: before we get into a bunch of extremely grim stuff,
Speaker 1: I wanted to because this is the this if you
Speaker 1: will be listening to well, okay, unless listening to this
Speaker 1: on Monday night, in which case, uh, congratulations on beating time.
Speaker 1: But most of your probably gonna listen to me listening
Speaker 1: to this on on lunar New Years, and so I
Speaker 1: wanted to before yeah, before everythink it's completely dark. I
Speaker 1: want you to know what you choose favorite Chinese New
Speaker 1: Year's food is because this is like my favorite holiday
Speaker 1: and it's basically my favorite holiday because in Grand Chinese tradition,
Speaker 1: it's just an excuse to eat a lot. So yeah,
Speaker 1: opening the floor up. Yeah, I think you're the expert here, Jane,
Speaker 1: so feel free to I am not laid on the knowledge.
Speaker 1: I am not an expert. Just because I fault dumplings
Speaker 1: does not mean I'm a ne expert. But I I
Speaker 1: mean I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really
Speaker 1: that many other people in a very long time, so
Speaker 1: my sense of like breath of food has really really
Speaker 1: narrowed to what is available to me. Um. And I
Speaker 1: also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've
Speaker 1: been making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep
Speaker 1: thinking about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the
Speaker 1: sesame anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just
Speaker 1: boiled dumplings I feel like are really great for me
Speaker 1: at this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh. In Cantonese,
Speaker 1: it's called me and go, which is it's a comment
Speaker 1: really yes, um. And the way my mom used to
Speaker 1: make it all the time was like dipping it in
Speaker 1: an egg first, um, And so it has this kind
Speaker 1: of like eggy crust on it, which is really really awesome.
Speaker 1: And I've been making that for the past couple of
Speaker 1: years myself where I am, and I can't wait to
Speaker 1: go to the grocery store and grab some because it's
Speaker 1: only available around this time. I guess they don't really
Speaker 1: produce it any other time. And last time I went
Speaker 1: to visit my mom, she like loaded my suitcase full
Speaker 1: of them and that was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: and some of them went fast. Oh no, we have
Speaker 1: we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's I
Speaker 1: think it's it was in the freezer. It's now, I
Speaker 1: think in the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut
Speaker 1: into it on New Year's Yeah, do you do? You
Speaker 1: guys do the because I know so we we only
Speaker 1: have red bean ones. I know there's like brown sugar one.
Speaker 1: Is there something that are like plane wait? I just
Speaker 1: wanted to check, like is it nanal? Yeah? Or at
Speaker 1: least so like the sort of like flower thing that
Speaker 1: is like shaped like a semicircle. Yeah wait, yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like there's different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them
Speaker 1: into like like square strips, but I think that's just
Speaker 1: like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, And it
Speaker 1: usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when it's packaged. That's so interesting because I feel like
Speaker 1: the nanoal that I grew up with doesn't usually have
Speaker 1: a lot of things on it. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: sticky and kind of plane and I'm just this is
Speaker 1: this is a new thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: ones we usually get just has red beans in it,
Speaker 1: and then there's like the one date on the top. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're thinking of like towning Go,
Speaker 1: which is like a different type of dish um where
Speaker 1: it's like white rice cakes and then you you can
Speaker 1: like it's like saucy and then yeah, like different ingredients
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, I think it's a different Ours are
Speaker 1: just that they're like they're they're pretty close to the Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think I'm just talking about the just
Speaker 1: regularly and golic. They're just like like they're they're they're
Speaker 1: they're basically plain, but there's some red being like cirta
Speaker 1: into the dough and then it's just like the flat
Speaker 1: brown thing that you like fry. Yeah, all right, this
Speaker 1: is we've now done dessert chat. I would honest honestly
Speaker 1: much much less grim time than most of the stuff
Speaker 1: that happens on here. And you've all been now subjected
Speaker 1: to it. I go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great.
Speaker 1: Ah yeah. So on two things that are somewhat more
Speaker 1: grim Um, I think there's there's two big things I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that sort of related to, like
Speaker 1: I guess Chinese diaspora, nous um. I guess we can
Speaker 1: start with talking a bit about anti Asian violence and
Speaker 1: police violence, because I mean it's not like so my
Speaker 1: sort of into this is that my my someone Okay.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that's happened in the past
Speaker 1: about two years was this the huge sort of spike
Speaker 1: and anti Asian violence. But then you know, part of
Speaker 1: what happens politically around that was there was a huge
Speaker 1: attempt to essentially turn anti Asian violence, is you, I
Speaker 1: guess like the anti BLM, like especially in the US,
Speaker 1: But I think I think this happened elsewhere too, where
Speaker 1: there reserves it didn't I don't know, it worked in
Speaker 1: some places and didn't work in other places. So I
Speaker 1: went to the research Chicago and a few is it
Speaker 1: a few months ago, now maybe it's a couple of
Speaker 1: a month that you ago a Asian Chinese international student
Speaker 1: like got shot on campus and this turned into a
Speaker 1: huge sort of like bring more cops on campus that
Speaker 1: there was a huge petition that got signed. It was
Speaker 1: that people were like asking for security cameras and asking
Speaker 1: for our cops, and like the u c p D
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks later just like shot a dude.
Speaker 1: And so that there there's been I've been seeing this
Speaker 1: tension a lot. I was worrying a f YouTube had
Speaker 1: also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts,
Speaker 1: We're on it. UM. I mean, I feel like, unfortunately
Speaker 1: with Canada, there's like this dynamic where we look to
Speaker 1: the States for news and validation and this weird way
Speaker 1: that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are
Speaker 1: here that are different. UM. There are there's a different
Speaker 1: kind of police system. There's like the local police like
Speaker 1: Vancouver Police Apartment UM. But then there's also the RCMP,
Speaker 1: the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, which are in other the municipalities.
Speaker 1: And the RCMP was created specifically UM as a tool
Speaker 1: of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is UM,
Speaker 1: I guess the most succinctly way I can put it
Speaker 1: as segregation UM of Indigenous peoples from settlers, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of displacement of black communities across Canada. But
Speaker 1: and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we
Speaker 1: like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background,
Speaker 1: I guess um and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's
Speaker 1: in what's written territories or just the police killing people.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian
Speaker 1: institutions that are very very much complicit in the system.
Speaker 1: Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization
Speaker 1: in Vancouver who one of the board members is a
Speaker 1: cop who is married to a a city councilor. And
Speaker 1: a lot of the discourse at institutions not people themselves necessarily,
Speaker 1: but institutions create around for example, the revitalization of Chinatown
Speaker 1: or the preservation of culture is around Oh there's graffiti
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood Chinatown and mancouver Is in the downtown
Speaker 1: E Side was just considered, um, the poorest post is
Speaker 1: considered the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's
Speaker 1: like a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's,
Speaker 1: Black people people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM,
Speaker 1: wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply, and
Speaker 1: where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing
Speaker 1: guns and everyone displacing the tens cities. And so when
Speaker 1: there is an easy and not an easy but just
Speaker 1: like a demon, I a group of people that UM,
Speaker 1: the general public doesn't know enough about UM. If you
Speaker 1: walk through the downtowning side and talk to people, you
Speaker 1: would talk to people about their experiences with residential school,
Speaker 1: their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty and
Speaker 1: in the in the broadest terms, it's like the way
Speaker 1: that try and Town is being gentrified. People tend to
Speaker 1: blame the poor UM. And there's like this divide and
Speaker 1: conqueror mentality within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically,
Speaker 1: and so similar to what happened with UM Michelle go
Speaker 1: similar to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly
Speaker 1: woman who a group of people who lived in the
Speaker 1: intensity had killed pretending to be cops when they knock
Speaker 1: on her door, and the county one of the city
Speaker 1: councilors UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to
Speaker 1: stop indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of like marginalized people in these tense cities who
Speaker 1: who who can'ts um, who need to live there because
Speaker 1: it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's
Speaker 1: like anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate,
Speaker 1: the so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, um,
Speaker 1: And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just
Speaker 1: that like the way that the media, the way that
Speaker 1: the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon,
Speaker 1: the police the hate crime angle rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like simpler,
Speaker 1: It's simpler and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that Yeah, I think that tracks.
Speaker 1: I mean the targets are slightly different just based on
Speaker 1: such a snews but on the sort of local context.
Speaker 1: But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with
Speaker 1: what we've been seeing here as I think there's a
Speaker 1: there's another thing that I don't know, So I I
Speaker 1: really don't like the term, like because the did the
Speaker 1: Twitter hashtag stop asition hate, Like I hate that framing
Speaker 1: of it as sort of hatred and not racism. But
Speaker 1: even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, which
Speaker 1: I've been used a lot, I think has problems because
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, this is one of the things
Speaker 1: you were talking about, one of the things that I've
Speaker 1: seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, like
Speaker 1: you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right,
Speaker 1: but then there's so just like I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the sort of scare things that happened here was it
Speaker 1: was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of
Speaker 1: restaur like Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and
Speaker 1: everyone was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and
Speaker 1: it's like, well, no, like this is just theft. And
Speaker 1: and there there's there's been this sort of like collapsing
Speaker 1: of something bad happens to an Asian person with specifically
Speaker 1: sort of like targeted racist attacks, and I think that's
Speaker 1: been well, I mean, that's been a problem. And there's
Speaker 1: also the secondary problem of you know who even who
Speaker 1: even gets included in this in the first place. Like
Speaker 1: one of one of the biggest things I've been frustrated
Speaker 1: about is, you know, the sort of the selective inclusion
Speaker 1: of South Asian people like I there there was there
Speaker 1: was a shooting at the fed X facility last year
Speaker 1: by a guy who was like very much, very far right,
Speaker 1: kind of like pilled online guy, and it killed a
Speaker 1: bunch of SEAK workers. And there was never there's just nothing,
Speaker 1: even like no one talked about is anti ation violence.
Speaker 1: But then you know, selectively, you get inclusion to tell
Speaker 1: these Asian people when it's like it's it's it's like
Speaker 1: people get folded into being Asian when it's like useful
Speaker 1: to call from war police. But then when it's you know,
Speaker 1: not useful for that, or when it's you know, especially
Speaker 1: when it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort
Speaker 1: of nothing. And I've been I don't know, I've been
Speaker 1: really frustrated by this dynamic a lot um. Yeah, and Jan,
Speaker 1: I want to know what you think about this too,
Speaker 1: because I have no talks slowing enough about Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build
Speaker 1: that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was
Speaker 1: supposedly quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote
Speaker 1: unquote anti Asian hate stuff. And you know, the only
Speaker 1: thing that accomplished. Was it created like some some government
Speaker 1: organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes
Speaker 1: and then more funding for the police, right, So I
Speaker 1: think it was. It was a very kind of direct impact.
Speaker 1: We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly
Speaker 1: what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen,
Speaker 1: which is more funny for the police and not making
Speaker 1: communities safer. Right. So, UM, I think the real conendrum
Speaker 1: for me and the thing that really kind of you know,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and
Speaker 1: I get I get kind of frustrated, is um, you know,
Speaker 1: whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage
Speaker 1: or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I
Speaker 1: agree with it, but you know, the response is always
Speaker 1: like the telling folks who have been victimized or those
Speaker 1: who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's true. But then I
Speaker 1: think one struggling with is how to make this message
Speaker 1: resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's a
Speaker 1: way that in some ways that can alienate them even
Speaker 1: more and make them even more reaction right, because that's
Speaker 1: you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh,
Speaker 1: they use further instances of violence to spin that argument
Speaker 1: of like when when people say the answer is not
Speaker 1: more cops, it doesn't make a safer the media is
Speaker 1: able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working right,
Speaker 1: it's things are actually getting more dangerous all the kind
Speaker 1: of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: which are usually false anyway. So I think that's what
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out now is like, you know,
Speaker 1: because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, where
Speaker 1: I've done some work, there was community meetings with c
Speaker 1: c D, the Chinatown Committee for Equitable Uh what's what's
Speaker 1: destan for? I always forget development. Um. They had some
Speaker 1: meetings with community folks to kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: hear what hear what they wanted to do to address this,
Speaker 1: and they kind of like a lot of those organizers had, um,
Speaker 1: you know, they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for
Speaker 1: more cops is not the answer, and so some of
Speaker 1: the mail they're from the community, but they're not. They
Speaker 1: weren't part of the kind of like senior population of Chinatown,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's like low incomes seniors is
Speaker 1: kind of like are the folks that are being pushed
Speaker 1: out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well. Um,
Speaker 1: some of some men were kind of like, Okay, well
Speaker 1: we should start kind of like armed neighborhood watch um.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think in some way that taps
Speaker 1: into this kind of like we protect us type of ethos, right,
Speaker 1: It's it's not relying on a state or government or
Speaker 1: whatever police paramilitary force. Um. But then I think the
Speaker 1: question that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, are are these people actually from the community,
Speaker 1: and are they actually doing this to address the needs
Speaker 1: of the folks who are most affected by it? Right?
Speaker 1: And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the
Speaker 1: idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. Um.
Speaker 1: And so there's there's just so many different ways to
Speaker 1: approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying
Speaker 1: way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective
Speaker 1: way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's
Speaker 1: a really good point, because I feel like in when
Speaker 1: especially UM Asian women, people who experience like various forms
Speaker 1: of sexual violence or UM street harassment. UM that sense
Speaker 1: of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting
Speaker 1: murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a way,
Speaker 1: it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any
Speaker 1: kind of solution and and also why that kind of
Speaker 1: trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately,
Speaker 1: like just because I'm like, who asked for you to
Speaker 1: be street crictials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make
Speaker 1: the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you
Speaker 1: have you talked with all of the seniors, all of
Speaker 1: the elders to ask them, like, how would you feel
Speaker 1: if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from?
Speaker 1: And I think that like the other argument is that
Speaker 1: like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even
Speaker 1: though UM policing and mental health systems are very, very
Speaker 1: very connected. UM. Edward Wong has an article about that
Speaker 1: in Upping the Anti And I don't know, I just
Speaker 1: think that like there has to be like a way
Speaker 1: to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma. And
Speaker 1: invalidating um people survival instincts as well, because I feel
Speaker 1: like UM for years, as someone who's done work in
Speaker 1: the anti violence sector. It's not that I wanted there
Speaker 1: to be more policing. It's just that like a lot
Speaker 1: of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want
Speaker 1: use the court system because this person is dangerous. Like
Speaker 1: that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't just
Speaker 1: go up, no, you're wrong, less cops right, Like that's
Speaker 1: that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not a
Speaker 1: compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like all
Speaker 1: about yourself and you should like to be talking about
Speaker 1: like black and Indigenous people like like like that's that's
Speaker 1: also really insensitive. So it's like I feel like there's
Speaker 1: a way that there there is like a way to
Speaker 1: talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor
Speaker 1: or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an
Speaker 1: easy thing because it's not like our communities have had
Speaker 1: a good way to respond to trauma, Like we haven't
Speaker 1: really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think this this kind of comes back to
Speaker 1: another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is
Speaker 1: about like transitioning things towards community solutions, But like what
Speaker 1: is that you know, like, what does that even mean
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with you know this, this is this
Speaker 1: is part of the problem with well, okay, you have
Speaker 1: armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when
Speaker 1: inevitably and this is this is just something that happens
Speaker 1: just you know, this is this is this is the
Speaker 1: nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to
Speaker 1: get a beaters in end. It's like, okay, well what
Speaker 1: happens then? And what happens when you know, like the
Speaker 1: abuses of people inside the community and and this is
Speaker 1: compounded I think by this problem of like what like
Speaker 1: what even you know the I think I think there's
Speaker 1: there's there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian
Speaker 1: nous is and there they brought up and this is
Speaker 1: this is also sort of localized problem of like what
Speaker 1: even like is the Chinese community at all? Because you're
Speaker 1: dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak
Speaker 1: different languages, you're dealing with people who have been in
Speaker 1: these places for you know, some people have been here
Speaker 1: for century, some people who have been here like two months.
Speaker 1: And I think that makes it really difficult in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways to sort of like even even just
Speaker 1: bring together something that could be a community. And I know,
Speaker 1: I know what happens, and I know, you know there's
Speaker 1: there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities,
Speaker 1: but but I think it makes this harder because there
Speaker 1: isn't a sort of like ready made thing you can
Speaker 1: turn to and go, Okay, well, this is how we're going,
Speaker 1: like this is the group of people, and this is
Speaker 1: the sort of like social sphere, and this is the
Speaker 1: community that going to turn and to to sort of
Speaker 1: deal with this stuff. There's just this kind of a
Speaker 1: bunch of amorphous different groups. And then also you have
Speaker 1: the problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about like political forces nation communities like the Busines associations
Speaker 1: are extremely powerful, and you know, we have different objectives
Speaker 1: than they do, but they're also like extremely well organized
Speaker 1: in a way that most other sort of like Chinese
Speaker 1: groups aren't. I don't know that that's that's that's been
Speaker 1: where my thinking has been going on this, Yeah, I think, um,
Speaker 1: this there's some residents with what you're saying and the
Speaker 1: kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind
Speaker 1: of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong despor organizing
Speaker 1: and which I think, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: overlap with that same type of like small business organization
Speaker 1: type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America,
Speaker 1: which is the case in l A and actually c C.
Speaker 1: He spends a lot of time fighting the small business
Speaker 1: organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM,
Speaker 1: and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and
Speaker 1: anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 1: there is that that element right where a lot of times,
Speaker 1: you know, you are fighting against people who might have
Speaker 1: to like same heritages for example, UM. And you know,
Speaker 1: for me personally, that's that's very much the case with
Speaker 1: Hong Kant ASPERG groups, right because you know, many of
Speaker 1: them are very conservative, are right wing and not only
Speaker 1: just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot
Speaker 1: for these kind of you know, these policies and politicians
Speaker 1: and all these different things that I really can't stand
Speaker 1: and I'm aligned against UM. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's a lot of folks want to take the kind
Speaker 1: of pregnantist root of like we'll work with you things
Speaker 1: that we where we have points of unity, otherwise we don't,
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, I guess some people see me as
Speaker 1: as a little bit more rigid in the sense that
Speaker 1: like I don't want to work with these folks at all,
Speaker 1: because UM, I see them as kind of themselves as
Speaker 1: as a force that is causing more hard than good,
Speaker 1: especially if with these Hong Kong aspert groups. The usual
Speaker 1: mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we
Speaker 1: do is is serving Hong Kong UM, and that you
Speaker 1: in the desper That usually means kind of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress,
Speaker 1: all those different things, UM. And then kind of like
Speaker 1: completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues UM.
Speaker 1: To oversimplify a little bit. So, you know, I think
Speaker 1: that's been on my mind a lot. I know your
Speaker 1: question was about Chinese noess, but I guess for me
Speaker 1: that that kind of filters a little bit further down
Speaker 1: to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote
Speaker 1: ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora
Speaker 1: is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. Um.
Speaker 1: It's like a difficult thing to kind of but but
Speaker 1: your head against because it's like you have your UM diversity, equity,
Speaker 1: inclusion framework of organizing, and then you have the every
Speaker 1: day like what what what these frameworks can't simplify, which
Speaker 1: is the tensions between your communities. Like I didn't grow
Speaker 1: up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. UM.
Speaker 1: Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb. UM
Speaker 1: that saw first um, not first but just like at
Speaker 1: some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of
Speaker 1: and then afterwards more like mainlanders, um, and so on
Speaker 1: the playground, somebody was like, are you from Taiwan mainland
Speaker 1: or or Hong Kong? And that was when I was
Speaker 1: like seven, And that was my introduction to what it
Speaker 1: means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way.
Speaker 1: And um being like just right like in that and
Speaker 1: in that and and figuring yourself out within that and
Speaker 1: seeing how there was just an absence of community because
Speaker 1: of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated
Speaker 1: us um and made more difficult um Like when we
Speaker 1: filter our parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like this awkward thing. But but I think that
Speaker 1: like UM in in trying to contend with that in
Speaker 1: the in the present, it's sort of like, um, we
Speaker 1: have these older institutions that other people that that the
Speaker 1: older generations have built. What new things can we build?
Speaker 1: What things can we um? Because I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: I'm really rigid too. I'm like really not great at
Speaker 1: across the aisle. And when I do, it's not it's
Speaker 1: not really about anything substantive. It's like hey, like hi,
Speaker 1: it's good to see you know, Like when you live
Speaker 1: in a place you you don't want to make like
Speaker 1: make enemies, but like it's it's a really hard thing, um.
Speaker 1: And it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly
Speaker 1: that people are just taking advantage of you, right like,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it's it's a it's a really
Speaker 1: difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all
Speaker 1: hate me, great love it. This has been they could
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Speaker 1: You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch
Speaker 1: on like this is I think kind of defferenting off
Speaker 1: the topic, but I think is also something that I've
Speaker 1: been running into a lot, which is that like, you know,
Speaker 1: you have this kind of like you know, you have
Speaker 1: this kind of bind right because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot
Speaker 1: of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has
Speaker 1: all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well,
Speaker 1: you know the other thing that's happening is is the
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left,
Speaker 1: I think the Canadian left has problem similar problems with
Speaker 1: this is like it's a bunch of just like it's
Speaker 1: a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people who
Speaker 1: love the CCP. It's a bunch of just we are
Speaker 1: genocide deniers and like people who think that every Asian
Speaker 1: person who like doesn't like the government is a cia
Speaker 1: psi op. And I don't know. This is something that
Speaker 1: I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a lot
Speaker 1: trying to, i mean help people doing Kong Kong organizing
Speaker 1: is something I've run into just in like every organized
Speaker 1: like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces
Speaker 1: to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels
Speaker 1: really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort
Speaker 1: of caught between and I guess it's sort of there
Speaker 1: is three way triangulation, right because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you have this sort of like you have the local
Speaker 1: dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of
Speaker 1: the sort of reactionary smum business owners. You have this,
Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese me also being sort of split
Speaker 1: in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of
Speaker 1: whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verspout times
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't want any of them to
Speaker 1: win and then use them out, and you're caught in
Speaker 1: the middle of this sort of you're caught in the
Speaker 1: middle of the sort of I don't know, I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like
Speaker 1: one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts
Speaker 1: being between both the CCP in the US sort of
Speaker 1: like using the specter of each other to sort of
Speaker 1: like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that
Speaker 1: these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the
Speaker 1: pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and
Speaker 1: like selectively been using anti Asian violence. As you know,
Speaker 1: they basically making the arguments of the import into anti
Speaker 1: ation violence is that, well, this only happens because people
Speaker 1: say many things about the CCP, and if no one
Speaker 1: didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence,
Speaker 1: even though like anti asition violence here predates the existence
Speaker 1: of a communist party in China by centuries, like we
Speaker 1: we like the we we invaded, We invaded China, like
Speaker 1: how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think
Speaker 1: at least twice and maybe three times like before there
Speaker 1: was a communist party. And so I don't know. I
Speaker 1: I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics in ways
Speaker 1: that are very frustrating. And yeah, I just I want
Speaker 1: to open the floor to talk about that. I guess
Speaker 1: I see it as like co optation partly um, but
Speaker 1: I guess I also see it as how power works.
Speaker 1: Like I there's like this local paper and I was
Speaker 1: researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally,
Speaker 1: and there was a spat in the paper between two
Speaker 1: people who one of whom is from um a newer
Speaker 1: Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um
Speaker 1: in the paper about his history. And there's the history
Speaker 1: of like those tensions are like written in the community itself,
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's not a new thing that people
Speaker 1: argue about what happened on June four. It's not new
Speaker 1: that people are really mistrustful each other and that there
Speaker 1: are actual like government forces that infiltrate and and create
Speaker 1: a like basically deny other people's struggles, like um, when
Speaker 1: that the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I
Speaker 1: guess it just is really hard when fellow organizers that
Speaker 1: you otherwise really like I want to get along with
Speaker 1: our our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed
Speaker 1: your family, because you're just kind of like you're kind
Speaker 1: of like, wait, so are we have we had a
Speaker 1: conversation about this, Like we clearly haven't talked enough if
Speaker 1: this is what you believe in. And it's just a
Speaker 1: little bit hard because it's like community building is not
Speaker 1: assuming that we're in solidarity. Community building is actually like
Speaker 1: doing that hard work like what is your community experiencing
Speaker 1: and what is my community experiencing? How are we being
Speaker 1: like weaponized against each other? Like yeah, how are these
Speaker 1: governments like manipulating like communities? But that's like really hard
Speaker 1: when trust has been probably broken like me, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think you're so right that it's it's really about cooptation
Speaker 1: and a lot of it, Like what I've witnessed is
Speaker 1: really so much about UM. And this is like like
Speaker 1: you're saying, Jaane, this is a much older dynamic than
Speaker 1: you know, just the past couple of years. Is like, uh,
Speaker 1: states being able to use this kind of home and
Speaker 1: desper of framework to um demand loyalty through like targeting
Speaker 1: desperate people's guilt UM. And so there's so many like
Speaker 1: guilty desper people I know who are like you know,
Speaker 1: usually from usually from a class perspective, right because they
Speaker 1: had the their family had the resources to leave or
Speaker 1: uh they were not born in the home country or
Speaker 1: whatever because of their family background, that type of thing,
Speaker 1: and and they want to subsume that by taking this
Speaker 1: radical you know, anti U s anti Canada stands um,
Speaker 1: which is fine, Like obviously being anti US and anti
Speaker 1: Canada is a good thing, but um, the thing that's
Speaker 1: really kind of frustrated me the most is seeing these
Speaker 1: kind of like radical folks in North America, especially queer folks,
Speaker 1: who are like they'll take the most reactionary positions against
Speaker 1: women and queer and you know LGBT folks in China,
Speaker 1: for example, by supporting a state that is repressing them. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's it's such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't understand why these folks can't see, um, that they're
Speaker 1: kind of perpetuating this violence in the service of this
Speaker 1: kind of overarching imperative of not ever seeing anything bad
Speaker 1: about China because it will help, it'll it'll bolster the
Speaker 1: US propaganda war machine, which is like, there's absolutely a
Speaker 1: way that I mean that absolutely happens if you do that,
Speaker 1: uh un carefully, right, if you just kind of repeat
Speaker 1: um US media narratives and stuff like that. But I
Speaker 1: think there's absolutely a way to do both right and UM.
Speaker 1: To me, the way to do that is to not
Speaker 1: um support the state discourses that demand loyalty from the
Speaker 1: dask brow, but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like we support career folks around
Speaker 1: the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments
Speaker 1: and that type of thing, UM, and being able to
Speaker 1: very carefully say that with nuance UM, and to be
Speaker 1: against both at the same time, for example, UM, well,
Speaker 1: that's really really difficult right, Um, And people have very
Speaker 1: kind of vitriolic reactions when you try and do that. Um.
Speaker 1: As you know, she set up talk Chris. So I
Speaker 1: don't know this. This is still the contrum for me
Speaker 1: because I tend to take the more rigid stance against
Speaker 1: against these folks. But I know people who are very
Speaker 1: kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is
Speaker 1: like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're
Speaker 1: just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM.
Speaker 1: And you know, being anti us is better than not
Speaker 1: being anti us. Is It's what a lot of folks say.
Speaker 1: And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But
Speaker 1: then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM,
Speaker 1: that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and
Speaker 1: discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like
Speaker 1: Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts
Speaker 1: that you have on people that you work with, that
Speaker 1: you organize with, that that are your friends or loved ones. Um.
Speaker 1: That you know, that kind of explanation of like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind
Speaker 1: of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening
Speaker 1: people around you, right, So I think there has to
Speaker 1: be a balance and like being able to steer folks
Speaker 1: in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even
Speaker 1: while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to
Speaker 1: be like staring people into a non Salista perspective. I'm
Speaker 1: just like, I'm not a horny for stalin I like
Speaker 1: the thing that pisces me off about this, it's just
Speaker 1: like like they're not even Stalinist, Like this is the
Speaker 1: thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they were
Speaker 1: merely twentieth century Stalinist, we wouldn't be having this argument,
Speaker 1: because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy. And it's like, no,
Speaker 1: they've they've somehow found a way to take literally the
Speaker 1: worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like, okay, but
Speaker 1: what if what if? What if Stalinism but also capitalism
Speaker 1: good at the same time, And it's just like how
Speaker 1: how did you do this? Like how how did you
Speaker 1: come up with an ideology that like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Also, I think that's
Speaker 1: been frustrating to me about this is like it's a
Speaker 1: way of sort of of of it becomes this way
Speaker 1: of channeling you know, you have the diaspert guilt in
Speaker 1: the one hand, that you have just random sort of
Speaker 1: like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it becomes
Speaker 1: this way of like channeling that into this sort of
Speaker 1: follow anti racism where you know, you get you get
Speaker 1: people who are like actual professional like hacks, right, like
Speaker 1: Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, to
Speaker 1: doing things like wow, if you if you, if you could,
Speaker 1: if you criticize this time you state it all that
Speaker 1: sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed.
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And
Speaker 1: there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem
Speaker 1: of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese
Speaker 1: people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass
Speaker 1: that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology. And
Speaker 1: I don't know that's been I think weird to deal
Speaker 1: with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always
Speaker 1: just in in Chinese communities, like you're always you're just
Speaker 1: you're just gonna have like you know that there's going
Speaker 1: to be a few people who are just sort of
Speaker 1: like pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just
Speaker 1: a sort of defailed political position. But there's there's this
Speaker 1: way in which you get this, you know, people adopting
Speaker 1: I mean just things that like if you said this
Speaker 1: about any like white American for example, if you if
Speaker 1: you argued that any like a white American making a
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year wasn't in poverty, but like you
Speaker 1: just couldn't do it, you like, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's literally impossible, like you you'd be laughing out of
Speaker 1: the room or you know, like you're you would you
Speaker 1: would you would be like ratio out until the cows
Speaker 1: come home. But you can just but everyone and people
Speaker 1: just say this constantly, like this is just just a
Speaker 1: thing that was like well, if you look at poverty productions,
Speaker 1: like well Chinese China is eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: they a thousand dollars a year is outside of this now.
Speaker 1: And I think there's these ways in which it becomes
Speaker 1: hard to intervene in this stuff because like every every
Speaker 1: Asian person especifically, if the Chinese person just becomes a
Speaker 1: sort of token that like you know, you just sort
Speaker 1: of like throw at each other as just like oh,
Speaker 1: well yeah, here's the Chinese person who says that the
Speaker 1: CCP is good. It's like, well, here's another Chinese person
Speaker 1: who says that it's bad. And it's like you never
Speaker 1: It's like on both sides, whether whether the process people
Speaker 1: realize it or not, it's their agencies being sort of
Speaker 1: stripped by them and they've they've been turned into this
Speaker 1: sort of instrumentalized like you know, in the in the
Speaker 1: same thing that they're also doing to us is that
Speaker 1: they're turning into sort of these instruments that you can
Speaker 1: use to like back your own sort brought in political agenda.
Speaker 1: And this, I don't know, like this has gotten me
Speaker 1: to just I I just don't work with these people anymore.
Speaker 1: Like we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed
Speaker 1: us over and so I don't know, but but but
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a that's a lonely stance in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Like you know, if if you
Speaker 1: take this kind of like hardline position, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: most people, even other people who don't support it probably
Speaker 1: won't follow you there. I don't know, it's weird because
Speaker 1: I find a lot of organizing is really lonely. It's
Speaker 1: like it's not like like I want to boast around
Speaker 1: being like why aren't you all donating? But that's not
Speaker 1: that's also guilt, right, that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um,
Speaker 1: and that's not in effect the tool. And I think
Speaker 1: that like like so right and addressing both the white
Speaker 1: guilt but also the diaspora guilt, and also just how
Speaker 1: frustrating it is to organize against the state when it's
Speaker 1: like two people, like three people doing it in a
Speaker 1: little group project for lack of a better word. But
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, how do we make this sustainable
Speaker 1: when it's so lonely? And how do we use the
Speaker 1: resources that are available to us two not replicate these
Speaker 1: systems yet again, And I guess when it comes to
Speaker 1: the left or progressive in Canada, it's like so frustrating
Speaker 1: because it's like there isn't actually a lot of community
Speaker 1: outreach to like racialized communities. There's no trens Nation. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of like nonprofit work that is frankly very
Speaker 1: draining and co optive themselves. Um Like, it's it's a
Speaker 1: bunch of social service organizations in a trench code and
Speaker 1: a bunch of political organizations that don't work together or
Speaker 1: talk to each other in a trench code. And um
Speaker 1: so I understand why youth would join like leftist like
Speaker 1: radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking when it's
Speaker 1: you're they end up reading in reading groups where they're
Speaker 1: reading historical or so called historical texts that erase your histories.
Speaker 1: Like it's just such a like like reading is great,
Speaker 1: like political education is incredible. Um but I'm like it's
Speaker 1: hard not to grow resentful. So when the guy at
Speaker 1: the top is the university educated white dude and they're
Speaker 1: reading texts that literally erase your entire family, and it's
Speaker 1: um that like yeah, for me, it's like just really
Speaker 1: personal that way. It's like there are people who are
Speaker 1: suffering in the present and you're reading a text by
Speaker 1: a white sociologist from the eighties, Like like not like
Speaker 1: I'm like it's not that like I I don't think
Speaker 1: that we should do that political education. It is just
Speaker 1: that like at a reading group, will you listen to
Speaker 1: me when I call you out. Yeah, I definitely, you know,
Speaker 1: both of you saying that this work is really lonely,
Speaker 1: especially if you take if you stand up for yourself,
Speaker 1: for you you really kind of stand by your principles.
Speaker 1: It's like that's so true. And um, you know, not
Speaker 1: to speak for everyone in laws on, but just my
Speaker 1: experience has been like you know, everyone just everyone hates us,
Speaker 1: like it's you know, we got hate from the right,
Speaker 1: we got hate from the left, um and from Hong
Speaker 1: Kong's asper from Hong Kong locals like it's it's just
Speaker 1: sometimes it's really hard to see, you know, because we're
Speaker 1: we're trying to stay true to our principles, but it's
Speaker 1: hard to see sometimes whether there's an impact or whether
Speaker 1: we're just kind of like in a little echo chamber
Speaker 1: with twenty other people, you know what I mean. And um,
Speaker 1: it's hard to find that balance because I don't want
Speaker 1: to become more and more pragmatists where I'm just like,
Speaker 1: all right, well, you know, I'll work with these people,
Speaker 1: but I don't agree with them on these fundamental issues
Speaker 1: just on this one campaign or whatever happens to be.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that's a part of like
Speaker 1: building power quote unquote like that a lot of uh certain,
Speaker 1: so those groups like to do or they're they're really
Speaker 1: focused on that kind of thing. But I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's too much of an academic view to to
Speaker 1: be like, if you're going to do it that way,
Speaker 1: you're you're you're changing the outcome already, right, because you're
Speaker 1: not addressing these kind of fundamental issues from the start
Speaker 1: um And I think that view can sometimes lead to
Speaker 1: like a lot of non starters where you're just like
Speaker 1: things don't ever get off the ground because you insist
Speaker 1: on whatever fundamental principle that you that you want to
Speaker 1: stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. So yeah,
Speaker 1: just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with you all
Speaker 1: on the long laitness of that. People think that like
Speaker 1: not working in these sort of united different things is
Speaker 1: this like sort of purityological position. But like you know,
Speaker 1: I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right,
Speaker 1: Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend
Speaker 1: thing and one of the groups involved with it was
Speaker 1: the was the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this
Speaker 1: sort of like very much sort of like the basic
Speaker 1: the tanking cult, like they've There's not a lot of
Speaker 1: other horrible stuff that will talk about at some point,
Speaker 1: but I mean, one of the things that happens, you know,
Speaker 1: Occupy ICE is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they
Speaker 1: destroy the encampment, like they convince enough people to just
Speaker 1: leave and do this completely pointless like march they can
Speaker 1: do a photo op of like people in front of
Speaker 1: the mayor's office, and they do it, and they camp
Speaker 1: collapses because suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they
Speaker 1: don't even get a majority of the people, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, because they pulled enough people out that you
Speaker 1: know that the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore.
Speaker 1: And I think that in some senses, this is kind
Speaker 1: of microcosm of what they what these people actually do,
Speaker 1: which is that you know, these people will never have
Speaker 1: any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're
Speaker 1: they're never going to create their like salentist state or whatever,
Speaker 1: like they're never going to get this. They're they're never
Speaker 1: gonna hold any power. What they can do is there
Speaker 1: are enough of them they can they can siphon off
Speaker 1: and people from actual leftist movements into this sort of
Speaker 1: just like white ring pro capitalist stuff that they can
Speaker 1: they can cause peoples to collapse, and I mean they've
Speaker 1: done this. They did a lot of this dream the uprising,
Speaker 1: and there is a lot of them, you know, intentionally
Speaker 1: leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of competing
Speaker 1: with the police and stuff like that. And I think
Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's it's like having seen that
Speaker 1: like multiple times, right I I you know, I you know,
Speaker 1: for me, like not working with him is an incredibly
Speaker 1: pragmatic position because we tried it and they blew it up.
Speaker 1: But it's this problem especially you know, you have people
Speaker 1: who are radicalized in and it's like, well yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like a lot of them never saw
Speaker 1: this stuff, right, don't know who these people are, and
Speaker 1: their first instroduction to the left is just like incredibly
Speaker 1: well financed like media blitz, and I think that has
Speaker 1: you know, I think that as consequences both for us
Speaker 1: sort of like people on the left doing like Chinese
Speaker 1: people on the left doing our own de asport organizing,
Speaker 1: and it has consequences for the broader left, and like
Speaker 1: you you can see other sort of versions of this
Speaker 1: right where you know, you have a sort of right
Speaker 1: wing we've been infiltrating left to spaces and destroying them
Speaker 1: like they're they're like there there was thing dow Cream
Speaker 1: Resistance basically blew up a like an anti lithium protest
Speaker 1: of the U S by just like going there and
Speaker 1: just hammering transphobia constantly. And so I don't know, I
Speaker 1: think there's there's this sort of dilemma because fundament like
Speaker 1: they will say a lot of the same things we do,
Speaker 1: but we have fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself
Speaker 1: at you know, on the level of of of organizing
Speaker 1: individual campaigns. But it's something that's really hard to get
Speaker 1: people to see. I think we've lost a lot of
Speaker 1: movements because of it. Yeah, not to be you know,
Speaker 1: not to pile on the cynicism or anything, but I
Speaker 1: think I honestly do think, uh, you know, as all
Speaker 1: those new Cold War stuff ramps up, which is like
Speaker 1: completely independent of what a lot of folks, like grassroots
Speaker 1: folks are even thinking or advocating, it's all just kind
Speaker 1: of up to the the two uh you know, Chinese
Speaker 1: and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions.
Speaker 1: I think it's really going to start like people are
Speaker 1: going to start these people who are um, you know,
Speaker 1: tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices
Speaker 1: further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's
Speaker 1: going to be an athema to to not you know,
Speaker 1: take the anti us position. And that's it, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me.
Speaker 1: I don't I last year, I thought there was still
Speaker 1: room for intervention. But things are closing so quickly. And
Speaker 1: you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of
Speaker 1: these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM
Speaker 1: and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you
Speaker 1: know that they have much more funding than a lot
Speaker 1: of other groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And
Speaker 1: so like you're saying, it's just like these media blitz
Speaker 1: is that these shiny events and all those different things
Speaker 1: are very appealing to newly radical radicalized folks, right because
Speaker 1: they think that this this is where the power is
Speaker 1: and this is where we can actually make a difference. Um,
Speaker 1: And yeah, things to me, things look pretty bleak in
Speaker 1: the near future. I mean it just takes one Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I will see. I think I think they made one
Speaker 1: major city mistake, which is they tried to do the
Speaker 1: new the push the giant like new cold war war
Speaker 1: China thing at the exact moment of the US and
Speaker 1: Russia we're like heating up in actually, and this left
Speaker 1: them like kind of off balance because they've been for
Speaker 1: the last two years the whole things when the US
Speaker 1: is to accelerate tensence with China using any seltentions with China,
Speaker 1: and then it turns out that they're not doing that
Speaker 1: and in fact, like they're gearing up for just more
Speaker 1: proxy word stuff with Russia, which is the thing they've
Speaker 1: been doing for the past decade. So I think, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I think they their problem essentially
Speaker 1: is that they run into reality and there are certain
Speaker 1: points at which, like you know, you you can lie
Speaker 1: a lot, right, but when when when the line that
Speaker 1: you're pushing is about what the mainstream media is going
Speaker 1: to say, and the mainstream if you just pivots and
Speaker 1: it's just completely about something that's entirely unrelated, Like I think,
Speaker 1: I think that hurts, and I think everything that The
Speaker 1: other problem they have that that makes me hopeful is
Speaker 1: that the way there their base is getting split by
Speaker 1: just the anti vax grifters, because so many of their
Speaker 1: media people just you know, are are just are just
Speaker 1: full on grifters, and you know, and you're you're seeing
Speaker 1: splits right now and gray Zone about like basically between
Speaker 1: pro and anti vad X factions. And I think that
Speaker 1: also will help us in the long run, because you know, say,
Speaker 1: say what you want about most leftists and even most tankies,
Speaker 1: like anti VAX is like a bit far even for them,
Speaker 1: and because you know, and the other things like the
Speaker 1: the it's it's hard to do anti VAX without beginning
Speaker 1: to take positions that just like it's been baked into
Speaker 1: just sort of anti Chinese racism in so many ways
Speaker 1: that like you can't really like you know, like you
Speaker 1: can't simultaneously be pro incredibly CCP and then also be
Speaker 1: talking about how the US is trying to implement social credit, right,
Speaker 1: you know, these these are these these positions are just contradictory,
Speaker 1: and I think that's something that plays to our advantage
Speaker 1: and I think is weakening them to some extent because
Speaker 1: they've they tried to have their cake and eat it too,
Speaker 1: and now they're sort of, I don't know, they're there.
Speaker 1: Their conspiracy theory base is interfering with their like left
Speaker 1: base in ways I think you're helpful for us. It's
Speaker 1: just so interesting how like the anti vax position is
Speaker 1: literally rooted in racism and ableism. Like, um, there's an
Speaker 1: article in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the
Speaker 1: anti vax movement that has like really good history around
Speaker 1: white settlers being afraid of African medicine, um um. And
Speaker 1: then there's also just the able ism of assuming that
Speaker 1: your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That
Speaker 1: was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic,
Speaker 1: and that was part of how this was effective in
Speaker 1: the first place. And um Yeah, and obviously the anti
Speaker 1: Chinese um like uh, anti Asian like scapegoating as well.
Speaker 1: But um, I guess that also ties into like just
Speaker 1: how broadly a blest the left is and how like
Speaker 1: disability justice is not something that a lot of people
Speaker 1: know about um or care about. And it's yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's a huge problem for me as a
Speaker 1: disabled person. Yeah. I wanted to add really quickly too.
Speaker 1: I mean, I totally agree with you, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think one of the pernicious things that I've noticed though,
Speaker 1: is like these kind of big you know, quote unquote
Speaker 1: anti imperialist accounts like on Instagram for example. Um, they
Speaker 1: take this anti vax position precisely by saying that it's
Speaker 1: anti racist to take that position, which is like, it
Speaker 1: sounds that sounds very kind intuitive, it's not that does
Speaker 1: not reflect reality. But they will point to instances of
Speaker 1: you know, anti black us um US medicine for example,
Speaker 1: you know, like the Tusky experiments, and then say this
Speaker 1: is why we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on
Speaker 1: any of this, right because look what they've done in
Speaker 1: the past, And it's like that logic makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense in a lot of ways, right, but you know,
Speaker 1: they obviously ignore the impacts that you know, anti vax
Speaker 1: UH and COVID has had on you know, black and
Speaker 1: other POSD populations. Right. So I think I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's exactly like, I don't know if it is
Speaker 1: appearing as hypocrisy to those people and then their audiences too, right,
Speaker 1: because I think they're able to spin it in this
Speaker 1: in this way. Yeah, but I think I think my
Speaker 1: my my argument here is I don't think those are
Speaker 1: the same. I don't like those are the same basis,
Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't think that the majority of
Speaker 1: the Tanky base are people who are anti factors. And
Speaker 1: you know that you can see a line of this
Speaker 1: right of of you know, like one of the big
Speaker 1: things that like they're they're they're obsessed with sort of
Speaker 1: like with the Cuban healthcare system, right and like Cuba's
Speaker 1: Cuba's vaccines. You see this stuff from them a lot,
Speaker 1: and you know, and they also talk about like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like China's doing really well accolicating COVID, and I don't
Speaker 1: think those positions are like, I don't think those people
Speaker 1: are the same people who are also turning around and
Speaker 1: then talking about how like you know, talk doing the
Speaker 1: Caki experiments the vaccines are actually like racism thing. I
Speaker 1: think I think there's some overlap between them, but but
Speaker 1: I don't think that those bases line up enough for
Speaker 1: it to you know, not have the effect of just
Speaker 1: kind of like tearing them apart. As their media people
Speaker 1: flip been too into one of the sort of camps.
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing, like, you know, if
Speaker 1: if you look at what's happening with like, uh, like
Speaker 1: Max Bluemada right now, is that he's just like full
Speaker 1: on like like he's just full on touring with like
Speaker 1: just straight up right wingers to an extent that even
Speaker 1: like even people who being habituated by the sort of
Speaker 1: like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working with
Speaker 1: right wingers, like you can't look at these people that
Speaker 1: you know there's just these actually just like Republican operatives
Speaker 1: and be like, well, okay, we're we're on the side
Speaker 1: of these people and also like support Cuba. I just
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I have I have some faith
Speaker 1: in these groups being separate and they're being there being
Speaker 1: a point of cognitive dissonance where the system break out.
Speaker 1: I guess I've seen people who have gotten out of
Speaker 1: tanky is M by having to interact with the actual CCP,
Speaker 1: and and that that that that gives me hope that
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's a point of cognitive dissonance at
Speaker 1: which it falls apart. And I don't know, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: I'm just sort of like hopy m in here, but
Speaker 1: I feel like it's so interesting how like there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people for whom politics is a parlor
Speaker 1: game and not their every day like lived experience. Like
Speaker 1: I would not be like like if I see my
Speaker 1: communities struggling. Um, and when people are dying or people
Speaker 1: are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um, things
Speaker 1: that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like the
Speaker 1: angle about classes so important here because it's like a
Speaker 1: lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the broader
Speaker 1: communities around them. Like if you're going around saying untruths
Speaker 1: in the media and your communities are like, hey, that
Speaker 1: that makes no sense. Like, um, if you're actually connected
Speaker 1: to people like like you would hopefully, unless you're just
Speaker 1: a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some accountability
Speaker 1: for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just I
Speaker 1: just worry because this pandemic has also like really isolated people,
Speaker 1: like they people are not like talking to each other,
Speaker 1: and that makes it more easy for people to to
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like this is
Speaker 1: my perspective, and I just yeah, I think about that
Speaker 1: the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions, like
Speaker 1: the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to CULTIU
Speaker 1: type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history, because like,
Speaker 1: I feel like the the anti vax uh like not
Speaker 1: taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is a very
Speaker 1: like manipulative like argument because it ignores the fact that
Speaker 1: these experiments UM on black and Indigenous people in North
Speaker 1: America and beyond are like about neglect and are about
Speaker 1: um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like it's completely
Speaker 1: understandable for for people to not trust the government. But
Speaker 1: but like when the vaccine is actually a tool of
Speaker 1: protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like campaigns
Speaker 1: other than people who are uh rooted and disability justice
Speaker 1: saying hey, vaccines are like here to protect us, and
Speaker 1: how can we make how can we make like a like,
Speaker 1: how can we resist the medical industrial complex enough such
Speaker 1: that we can make people feel safer taking them at vaccine?
Speaker 1: How can we bring people in as opposed to fearmongering,
Speaker 1: because I think that fear is so powerful. It's like,
Speaker 1: once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna you're not gonna
Speaker 1: even look into the research, right, So I don't know.
Speaker 1: For me, I just think of all of this as
Speaker 1: like manipulation and human psychology on a on a like
Speaker 1: broad social basis because it's like the stage is a
Speaker 1: big cult and these little groups are little cults. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do do you have any other things you want to
Speaker 1: say before we head out? Happy new here. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like actually
Speaker 1: Fuary not January one. Yeah, yeah we should, I think
Speaker 1: my okay okayo closing less depressing question. Yeah, what what
Speaker 1: do you think is the etiquette on retweeting? I like, yea,
Speaker 1: every retweeting like you're the Tiger art before the actual
Speaker 1: before like Lunar New Year's. I've been torn on it
Speaker 1: because I just I like the art, but also I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's not the years yet. I haven't seen any I guess,
Speaker 1: so I guess I'm lucky. I have been either guilty
Speaker 1: or just not guilty, depending on how you see it.
Speaker 1: Like I have retweeted all of the Tiger art on
Speaker 1: January first because I did not care. I wanted to
Speaker 1: see the tigers um. But I hope that I see
Speaker 1: more tigers like in the coming days, because if the
Speaker 1: Tigers aren't coming, or if we aren't retweeting it, that
Speaker 1: that is an issue, Like there need to be like
Speaker 1: a second like a like a like a like like
Speaker 1: a like a second wave of the tiger are no
Speaker 1: pressure to all of the artists. Well, alright, So if
Speaker 1: if people want to find you or work that you
Speaker 1: have that you want people to find where, where where
Speaker 1: can they do that? Or if you also do not
Speaker 1: want them to find you, that is completely also valid.
Speaker 1: The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah, I mostly
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Speaker 1: is the podcast that This is about things falling apart
Speaker 1: and how to, how to, how to maybe unfollowed apart.
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. Your your your host, and your other
Speaker 1: hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our producers Sophie. How's
Speaker 1: everybody doing today? Great? How every How does everybody feel
Speaker 1: about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were to get us,
Speaker 1: based on your knowledge of history, what generation of war
Speaker 1: we're in right now? What would you what? What would
Speaker 1: y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's it's it's
Speaker 1: newer in relation to like human beings, Like the idea
Speaker 1: of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles, but
Speaker 1: like the idea of like war, I feel like isn't
Speaker 1: super old compared to how long there's been humans walking around.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, this is maybe I mean, I
Speaker 1: know the answer, but like it's it's like like that's
Speaker 1: that's definitely we definitely passed through like at least a
Speaker 1: couple of stages and at least a couple Chris, like
Speaker 1: gotta be at least twelve Twelvest, you're way ahead of
Speaker 1: William s Lynd, who spoilers is the guy who came
Speaker 1: up with the concept of fourth generation war, which is
Speaker 1: what this episode is about. Right. One of the things
Speaker 1: when we talk about things falling apart is um the
Speaker 1: unsettling growth of a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine
Speaker 1: being the most like blatant modern example, Syria being the
Speaker 1: deadliest example in our lifetimes. But like these weird hybrid
Speaker 1: conflicts that are a mix of shit happening on the
Speaker 1: Internet and like disinformation going out all over the world.
Speaker 1: You could even think to like what was happening in
Speaker 1: Bolivia a year or so back, and like all those
Speaker 1: weird accounts that were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming
Speaker 1: to support the military coup. And you can look at
Speaker 1: like from the same this disinformation brought out by like
Speaker 1: the Russian state that is usually as part of like
Speaker 1: a conflict either you know, they have disinfo operations and
Speaker 1: Syria disinfo operations around the conflict, and you crane that
Speaker 1: are kind of designed to muddy the issues and to
Speaker 1: detract international support and also to like drum up support
Speaker 1: within for like in the in the case of Ukraine,
Speaker 1: you had like this media blitz against the legitimacy of
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian state in favor of like a more UH
Speaker 1: like traditionally Russian um UH style of government in the East,
Speaker 1: and like that led to this breakaway republic that was
Speaker 1: supported by the Russian government. And like so these are
Speaker 1: like hybrid conflicts is kind of how these are referred to.
Speaker 1: And there was a guy named William S. Lynd who
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine wrote a book with a couple
Speaker 1: of US military analysts. Like he was an analyst for
Speaker 1: the military. He was not serving in the military. The
Speaker 1: other guys he wrote this this thing with we're serving
Speaker 1: at the time, and they wrote this this book kind
Speaker 1: of trying to be basically what Lynde was doing. He
Speaker 1: was very influenced by our loss in Vietnam when I say,
Speaker 1: are here, like the loss of the American state in Vietnam,
Speaker 1: and he was trying to determine, like number one, kind
Speaker 1: of like find a way to codify and explain the
Speaker 1: changes that were happening to warfare in this period. Was
Speaker 1: also influenced about what was happening in Afghanistan with the
Speaker 1: Russians were experiencing UM and find a way to like
Speaker 1: move forward and allow the United States to win wars again, right,
Speaker 1: Like that was William S. Lynn's goal UM, And so
Speaker 1: he came up with this concept of four or he
Speaker 1: and some other guys come up with what they called
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare UM and first generation warfare is like
Speaker 1: Napoleonic Arab warfare. So, like as Garrison was saying, you
Speaker 1: may note that he kind of starts his that it's
Speaker 1: pretty late. That's pretty late we had wars before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's there's a lot of stuff that leads up to like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if I was gonna try to categorize different types of
Speaker 1: warfare that would not be the one I start with. Well,
Speaker 1: and like the reality, of course is we'll talk about
Speaker 1: like when you start looking at different kinds of warfares,
Speaker 1: there's wars that look remarkably like the ship going on
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand
Speaker 1: years ago, um, like something like like in the same places.
Speaker 1: To like it's just like if you wanted to if
Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about like kind of the modern
Speaker 1: style of wars that we saw that we've seen really
Speaker 1: in the last like hundred and fifty years, they're not
Speaker 1: all that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like
Speaker 1: the kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um,
Speaker 1: which are these really like big nation states style conflicts
Speaker 1: and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S.
Speaker 1: Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after
Speaker 1: the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the
Speaker 1: Thirty Years War um. And it's the kind of warfare
Speaker 1: where you have these like big tightly ordered groups of
Speaker 1: men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate
Speaker 1: weapons and mass together. Right. Uh, this is ended by
Speaker 1: the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic
Speaker 1: rifle UM or on the bolt reaction rifle, I should say,
Speaker 1: and that leads us to second generation warfare, which is
Speaker 1: linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires.
Speaker 1: That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not
Speaker 1: marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um,
Speaker 1: and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one
Speaker 1: kind of ship right um. Really we start to see
Speaker 1: this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is
Speaker 1: kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and
Speaker 1: over the course of World War One we more merge
Speaker 1: and again this is william S Lends way, we emerge
Speaker 1: from second generation to third generation warfare, which is where
Speaker 1: you've got infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and
Speaker 1: collapse at which is kind of the Germans and their
Speaker 1: altrogs tactic and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering
Speaker 1: that you've got the idea of defense in depth um.
Speaker 1: And so this need to bypass the enemy and like
Speaker 1: this leads to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of
Speaker 1: ship um and then that kind of starts to collapse
Speaker 1: and Len's estimation around Vietnam, and you get what's called
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare. Fourth generation. I'm actually just going to
Speaker 1: read a quote from a military history wiki that I
Speaker 1: thought had a pretty good description of all of this.
Speaker 1: Fourth generation warfare is normally characterized by a violent non
Speaker 1: state actor fighting a state. This fighting can be physically done,
Speaker 1: such as by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers
Speaker 1: of Tamil alam Um. In this realm, the v n essay,
Speaker 1: these violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth
Speaker 1: generation warfare. These are the physical actual combat, which is
Speaker 1: considered the least important, mental the will to fight, belief
Speaker 1: in victory, etcetera. And the moral, which is the most important.
Speaker 1: LYND says and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously
Speaker 1: I think that this is kind of nonsense. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of people, So there's a lot of folks, the
Speaker 1: people who buy into this, and it's very popular on
Speaker 1: the right. Well, we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine.
Speaker 1: It's a perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you
Speaker 1: have Russia flooding the zone using spot nick and a
Speaker 1: bunch of other kind of media organizations to drum up
Speaker 1: um discord and like anger between East and West in Ukraine,
Speaker 1: uh and support for potential Russian action at the same
Speaker 1: time as you have them backing this dictator um and
Speaker 1: then you have like the West sort of supporting the
Speaker 1: people protesting against those dictators and like so you've got
Speaker 1: like this this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually
Speaker 1: leads to fighting on the ground. One of the areas
Speaker 1: in which I think Lynda is really off is talking
Speaker 1: about like the physical as the least important, especially if
Speaker 1: you're going to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare,
Speaker 1: because if the Russian military had not intervened, there would
Speaker 1: not still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would
Speaker 1: not still hold land, and in fact, the Separatis were
Speaker 1: on the edge of getting completely wiped out by the
Speaker 1: Ukrainian military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors
Speaker 1: with minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved
Speaker 1: in brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um
Speaker 1: including like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to
Speaker 1: shoot down that Malaysian airlines flight. Like that. It's it's
Speaker 1: just not I I don't think that that what what
Speaker 1: Linda is saying is very um very well describes what's
Speaker 1: actually going on in the world. But it is important
Speaker 1: to understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth
Speaker 1: generation warfare, which we'll talk about in a bit um,
Speaker 1: because it is so useful in the way in which
Speaker 1: particularly guys like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict because
Speaker 1: they you will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly,
Speaker 1: and it's also something that has used a lot within
Speaker 1: our military establishment. Now a lot of people hate it,
Speaker 1: and within you can find a lot of papers buy
Speaker 1: dudes writing like analysts who are working for the Defense
Speaker 1: Department for the army actively like shipping on Lynd and
Speaker 1: talking about how he's at best is kind of like
Speaker 1: reinvented ideas that existed in warfare for thousands of years,
Speaker 1: and he's kind of summarized things in a way that
Speaker 1: that is needlessly flattening, and like some people will say,
Speaker 1: you basically like ripped up like added the Internet to
Speaker 1: Klauschwitz uh and pretended that you'd invented a new style
Speaker 1: of conor that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that's like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation
Speaker 1: warfare right. And there's a lot of things that he
Speaker 1: gets again like if you're if you're a history a
Speaker 1: military history wong, which Lynde pretends to be a lot
Speaker 1: of ship that he gets wrong. Um. So one of
Speaker 1: the things that he says, like one of his famous
Speaker 1: phrases that every military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um,
Speaker 1: the idea that like every military that that is great
Speaker 1: eventually like has a gigantic funk up because they get
Speaker 1: too used to doing the same thing, which is true um.
Speaker 1: And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put
Speaker 1: into service a much more improved model mesh kit mess
Speaker 1: kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did it
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the
Speaker 1: shelf and old model mess kett the mass draft Army
Speaker 1: of the First Republic and put it back into service.
Speaker 1: The Japanese did it in ninety five, after which they
Speaker 1: threw their mesket away swearing they would never eat again.
Speaker 1: And we did it in Korea in Vietnam. And now
Speaker 1: when four new wars so far we've only we've had
Speaker 1: the only military that's just kept on eating. And that's
Speaker 1: a really dumb statement. That's all really historically and accurate. So,
Speaker 1: for example, it's true that like the Prussians had a
Speaker 1: great military which then got its butt kicked by Napoleon
Speaker 1: and they had to completely redesign it, and by the
Speaker 1: time eighteen seventy came around, they were extremely dominant on
Speaker 1: the battlefield against the French. Number One, he's crediting the
Speaker 1: military reforms of like tactics and strategy and ignoring things
Speaker 1: like Krupp inventing it an entirely new kind of cannon
Speaker 1: that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um. He's also
Speaker 1: ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um. He's saying,
Speaker 1: like the US is the only army that does the
Speaker 1: same thing over and over again and fails and keeps
Speaker 1: on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the army the
Speaker 1: Germans took into battle in World War One and two,
Speaker 1: and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either of those wars. Um.
Speaker 1: He also talks about how like the French had their
Speaker 1: you know, crapping in the mess hit moment in eighteen
Speaker 1: seventy after the Franco Prussian War, and they changed their
Speaker 1: army and it was much better. Like, well, they didn't
Speaker 1: win World War One, like they were on the side
Speaker 1: that one, but if it had been them against Germany,
Speaker 1: they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it was not
Speaker 1: going well for them for quite a while, and they
Speaker 1: lost a whole generation of young men. So maybe and
Speaker 1: and again this is like what he's saying is basically
Speaker 1: we because we're losing so constantly. The reason that we're
Speaker 1: losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts. It's
Speaker 1: not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when we
Speaker 1: shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It's not because
Speaker 1: we use military force in like a fundamentally venal and
Speaker 1: corrupt way in order to benefit a small cabal of
Speaker 1: military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't have good
Speaker 1: battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning in these conflicts,
Speaker 1: which ignores everything about the reality of the conflicts that
Speaker 1: like he's talking about, Like the problem is not a
Speaker 1: lack of combat dominance, which is is what you were
Speaker 1: seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon. It's what you
Speaker 1: were seeing with the French fighting the Germans in eighteen seventy, right,
Speaker 1: Like in those cases, the Prussians had a massive failure
Speaker 1: of combat dominance against the French, and the French had
Speaker 1: a massive failure in combat against the Germans. Their doctrine
Speaker 1: was just worse. Um, US soldiers are great at getting
Speaker 1: into gunfights and great at winning gun fights. The problem
Speaker 1: is not a lack of combat ability. The problem is
Speaker 1: that there's no way to win the conflicts that we're
Speaker 1: getting into. They are unwinnable wars that were never things
Speaker 1: that like, there no amount of change in doctrine would
Speaker 1: have made Afghanistan a success because it was a stupid
Speaker 1: are Like it's like if if that were true, like
Speaker 1: coin would have worked. And yeah, no, like absolutely yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of
Speaker 1: people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations,
Speaker 1: and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and and if you really dig into Lynd
Speaker 1: and others like him, what they're actually saying when they
Speaker 1: say that, like we need to reform like the way
Speaker 1: the military works with new battle doctors. We need to
Speaker 1: be killing even more people. We just didn't kill enough
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or so
Speaker 1: that wasn't enough people like that. That's the reform that
Speaker 1: he's really talking about. Um, is Lynd one of those
Speaker 1: people who like rants about the like the the the
Speaker 1: al Salvadorian option. UM. I'm sure he does. I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly what he said about al Salvador. He's a
Speaker 1: fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely a fascist.
Speaker 1: He was the director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism
Speaker 1: at the re Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote a or
Speaker 1: he helped to popularize a declaration of Cultural Independence by
Speaker 1: Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's a lot
Speaker 1: of the seeds of the ship that we're seeing today,
Speaker 1: right that like American culture institutions are being collapsed because
Speaker 1: of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives should separate
Speaker 1: themselves and like set up parallel institutions where Bannon comes in.
Speaker 1: And that's where Bannon comes in. That where like fucking
Speaker 1: Andrew Torba and gab come and they all advocate this ship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they're all they all adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like politics has culture and there's downstream. Yeah, and there's
Speaker 1: some weird differences with Lynd, Like he's a huge mass
Speaker 1: transit and urban rail advocate, which I guess I agree
Speaker 1: with him every once in a while, a bad person
Speaker 1: does have a good opinion. He loves he loves him
Speaker 1: some fucking city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also
Speaker 1: he was a major factor. He was one of the earliest,
Speaker 1: like prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism
Speaker 1: and kind of the modern political period. I mean that
Speaker 1: makes sense because he was really into it. Sounds like
Speaker 1: he's real into meta politics. So yeah, that's in Metapolis. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: like all of this stuff makes a whole lot of
Speaker 1: sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what,
Speaker 1: if you know what meta politics are. It's also kind
Speaker 1: of explains how he developed the different generations of warfare
Speaker 1: using it through a framework of metal politics. Actually really
Speaker 1: makes that fit if you believe, like Breitbart famously stated
Speaker 1: that like politics is downstream from culture, and if you
Speaker 1: also believe what Claus I think it was class Wits
Speaker 1: that said that like war is politics by other means
Speaker 1: than like you can make cultural can cause wars, and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like that's a lot like kind of I think the
Speaker 1: thought process behind Yeah, because this this really defines what
Speaker 1: he means by fourth generation warfare of war being handed
Speaker 1: out specifically by the culture instead of having it be
Speaker 1: abstracted to be like people marching towards each other with
Speaker 1: guns because he's, he's, he's, he's putting the he's putting
Speaker 1: the culture kind of back into it. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: and he's and he's in. And obviously culture was never
Speaker 1: not a factor, and of course not like every single
Speaker 1: war has, but a major factor, like all of this
Speaker 1: ship he talks about is being characters to go. Fourth
Speaker 1: generation warfare has been happening in one way or another
Speaker 1: for thousands of years, but it's it's not that these
Speaker 1: things are done in like temporal succession. It's like because
Speaker 1: because like a lot of the stuff that makes up
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare, like the more like guerrilla warfare aspects,
Speaker 1: come way before people with guns marching towards the other
Speaker 1: Africans doing that to Alexander the Goddamn Group for the
Speaker 1: Birth of Christ, A lot of a lot of this
Speaker 1: fourth gend stuff is actually like kind of more similar
Speaker 1: to what original warfare probably would have been, Like Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I think yeah. I think to to his credit,
Speaker 1: I think he does actually recognize that at some point
Speaker 1: in his writing now and and and the thing about
Speaker 1: this is, well, we can pick at it, and I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's
Speaker 1: it's close enough to the way that reality works that
Speaker 1: if you're going, if you're thinking about conflict in this framework,
Speaker 1: you can be very successful. It's not like an It's
Speaker 1: inaccurate in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing
Speaker 1: why certain things work. I think is a lot of
Speaker 1: what he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll
Speaker 1: say that, um, if if the American military were to
Speaker 1: make the fucking lend the Secretary of Defense and give
Speaker 1: him total power, like he would keep on losing wars
Speaker 1: as hard as we've been losing wars for everyone listening
Speaker 1: to this as lifetime. Um. But in a cultural sense,
Speaker 1: the kind of culture jamming, which is a term we'll
Speaker 1: talk about more in the future. And but the kind
Speaker 1: of like the propaganda arms and stuff in order to
Speaker 1: the the the the media warfare in order to either
Speaker 1: insight or justify real conflict or or and this is
Speaker 1: one of the areas in which they have been really
Speaker 1: effective to alter the dimension, to alter how internationally a
Speaker 1: conflict has responded to. So one of the big successes
Speaker 1: of people like this has been effectively eliminating any kind
Speaker 1: of left wing support for liberatory movements in the Middle East, UM,
Speaker 1: for liberatory movements or for like just like what's happening
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. It's kind of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh,
Speaker 1: if there's a movement for liberation among the people of
Speaker 1: a country, it's probably the c I a like like
Speaker 1: carrying out some sort of op um. That's Lynda and
Speaker 1: his people UM and people influenced by him have been
Speaker 1: a big part of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve
Speaker 1: Bannon is in and is so friendly with like some
Speaker 1: guys on like chunks that they call themselves the left
Speaker 1: and whatnot. It's because, um, there's there's a lot of uh,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ties there, and that is an
Speaker 1: area in which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like
Speaker 1: the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes
Speaker 1: that like these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of
Speaker 1: what I had to say. You guys want to know
Speaker 1: more about william S Lynd because he's I certainly want
Speaker 1: to learn more about Williams. William S Lynd cultural conservative,
Speaker 1: right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You
Speaker 1: want to guess who he considers his ideal leader? Uh
Speaker 1: jfk No, the House of Hogan's all learned. He's a
Speaker 1: Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, I mean politics. He's certainly
Speaker 1: into hegel and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian
Speaker 1: monarchy was the best government there ever was and was
Speaker 1: like unfairly crushed by the rest of the world, and
Speaker 1: like should have won World War One and everything would
Speaker 1: like he's he's and so he's he's very much like
Speaker 1: a conservative monarchist um and a weird kind because like,
Speaker 1: my god, dude, if you're looking at like monarchs who
Speaker 1: were like the Hogans all learn has had like in
Speaker 1: the modern era, like the first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent,
Speaker 1: but like it went to ship as soon as a
Speaker 1: help in the second and he blames all of World
Speaker 1: War One on the fucking tsars like it's it's very silly,
Speaker 1: like his ideas of history are like very stupid. I
Speaker 1: have an incredibly silly theory of history based on Hagel,
Speaker 1: which is that, like every everything Hagel. Briefly, for the
Speaker 1: listeners I know, do not, this is this is this
Speaker 1: is this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this is
Speaker 1: this is. This is my crank theory of history based
Speaker 1: on Hagel, which is that every about forty years someone
Speaker 1: attempts to apply Hagel, someone like takes charge of an
Speaker 1: incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to run it,
Speaker 1: and every single time they don't understand the dialectic and
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if
Speaker 1: you can take this as a very granul level, right
Speaker 1: you have Mao Mao has no idea what a dialectic is.
Speaker 1: You can you can read Mao's work. He has no clue,
Speaker 1: Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't he doesn't
Speaker 1: get it. He thinks of a dialectic is when one
Speaker 1: person with a bat hits the other hits the other side,
Speaker 1: and then when you destroy the other side, the dialectic
Speaker 1: is resolved. Right that that's not what it is, right
Speaker 1: Maw like, because of this, the entire Chinese revolution just implodes,
Speaker 1: everyone dies, it returns to capitalism. Is a complete failure, right,
Speaker 1: you know. And and like a lot of the Nazis
Speaker 1: are very much into Hagel. They have again incredibly similar failures.
Speaker 1: The other group people like Lynda think is part of
Speaker 1: this is that all of the people who planned the
Speaker 1: Iraq War were like enormous Regelian's right, but they've gotten
Speaker 1: to Hagel through this weird like they they've been doing this,
Speaker 1: they've been doing these kind of insurgency stuff and so
Speaker 1: but they're kind of insurgeny stuff. Was they read Mao
Speaker 1: and you know, so that they're so they're they're they're
Speaker 1: reading Hagel, but then they're also reading Hagel through Mao,
Speaker 1: and Mao doesn't understand what's going on either, And so
Speaker 1: when they try to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: the end of the end of the end of history,
Speaker 1: the end of the Hegelian dialectic is the United States.
Speaker 1: We're just going to impose this on a rock and
Speaker 1: it catastrophic failure. So the war listening is do not
Speaker 1: attempt to apply Hagel, you will completely annihilate your entire
Speaker 1: political movements, like every every everything, everything you love and
Speaker 1: dream of everything, like every ideology you've ever had. Uh,
Speaker 1: it will, it will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you
Speaker 1: will watch your cities, and you watch your cities and
Speaker 1: Armi's burn. That's that's fine because the last time my
Speaker 1: resistance movement, we're just going to be postcanty and object
Speaker 1: oriented on ontologist guys. Throw a bunch of names, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get like of people are just why the
Speaker 1: funk am I hearing about these dead people? The thing
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to to bring up on this is
Speaker 1: like how fourth and fifth gen are the idea of
Speaker 1: the fourth and fifth gen get applied onto like more
Speaker 1: insurrection based um like revolts or groups. Right, you can
Speaker 1: see like groups like the Earth Liberation Fund and Animal
Speaker 1: Liberation Front kind of pick and shoes elements of the
Speaker 1: fourth and fifth generation were fair to kind of to
Speaker 1: see how their groups formed or were operated um. And
Speaker 1: even you could argue that like Ted Kazinski was like
Speaker 1: a fifth fifth generation warfare because he was completely autonomous
Speaker 1: and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea of fifth
Speaker 1: generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare, which
Speaker 1: was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept that
Speaker 1: has come up I believe Daniel Abbott is his name. UM,
Speaker 1: And the idea was that like it's a new type
Speaker 1: of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts in
Speaker 1: the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic um,
Speaker 1: but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering,
Speaker 1: misinformation sorry, or attacks not just like decentralized, but like
Speaker 1: states actually using UM organized and often fighting non state
Speaker 1: actors who are using kind of the thing. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: this and a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence,
Speaker 1: fully autonomous systems systems not just botan nets, but like
Speaker 1: algorithms that can like handle a lot of the quote
Speaker 1: unquote fighting. UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of
Speaker 1: fourth generation, fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and
Speaker 1: he doesn't like anyone using the idea that sound every
Speaker 1: head of the dialectic. It keeps going. So what I was,
Speaker 1: what I was thinking, is like, is like a lot
Speaker 1: of you can apply fis generation warfare to like these
Speaker 1: types of groups who are mostly like they do some
Speaker 1: they do some fourth gent tactics in terms of like terrorism, right,
Speaker 1: Like they try to make political statements through terrorism and
Speaker 1: have terrorism an influential thing, but they're demands like you
Speaker 1: rarely like fifth generation stuff has not been around a
Speaker 1: long enough and no one's really been super successful at
Speaker 1: it in the past enough time for us like to
Speaker 1: like recognize that, right, because you can look at a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of like an insurrectionary type stuff
Speaker 1: around like the Again, I'm just gonna use the Earth
Speaker 1: Liberation Front as an example of like a group that
Speaker 1: attempted kind of these types of tactics, um and they
Speaker 1: may have succeeded in the physical sense, but they did
Speaker 1: not succeed in like the cultural sense. Really, um, So
Speaker 1: trying to like look at these types of things and
Speaker 1: how they relate to like specific that you know, if
Speaker 1: you're gonna use like the take Kazinski example, same thing,
Speaker 1: except he's not a group. He's just one person, which
Speaker 1: is kind of more of a fifth gen thinks he's
Speaker 1: like fully autonomous, whereas I think, um, you know, stuff
Speaker 1: like the e l F tried to have that kind
Speaker 1: of militant group dynamic that is more similar to fourth
Speaker 1: generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing of
Speaker 1: like trying to trying to do physical action than trying
Speaker 1: to do cultural action. And it's it's not like the
Speaker 1: things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some the
Speaker 1: defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just got
Speaker 1: um this is the specific action they were working on
Speaker 1: to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The
Speaker 1: judge of approved their approved their motion because they were
Speaker 1: they actually were successful because they did not form this
Speaker 1: militant thing right now, they were just doing the cultural
Speaker 1: and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to just
Speaker 1: you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try to
Speaker 1: get your action forward. So just trying to look at
Speaker 1: like examples of when when like the goal is kind
Speaker 1: of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain types don't.
Speaker 1: How that might influence like organizing and how to selectively
Speaker 1: use like insurrection, but have it not be like a
Speaker 1: default mode for like always your group is better if
Speaker 1: it's insurrectorary. M Yeah, And I one of the things
Speaker 1: that does characterize that I think is useful if we're
Speaker 1: because again I have my criticisms of the value of
Speaker 1: any of these like phrases as kind of discrete concepts.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think is useful
Speaker 1: about the concept of fifth generation warfare that does talk
Speaker 1: about something that is legitimately new to conflict that has
Speaker 1: not really existed before before the Internet is omnipresence UM.
Speaker 1: That that the conflicts are not limited in geographical space
Speaker 1: or in time, and in fact is like a constant
Speaker 1: factor all around you at all times because of the
Speaker 1: way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: you can look at kind of like the mix of
Speaker 1: street fight and information warfare, doxing and whatnot between fascists
Speaker 1: and anti fascists for the last few years. It's omnipresent.
Speaker 1: It's always going on UM, and the battle space is
Speaker 1: kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly rarely kinetic
Speaker 1: or physical UM. And I do think that that's an
Speaker 1: area in which, um, it is really worth having a
Speaker 1: new term and kind of defining a new term, because
Speaker 1: that's one of the few things I think that has
Speaker 1: legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this stuff
Speaker 1: that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM. But
Speaker 1: the thing that it's really created that was not present before?
Speaker 1: Is this the this omnipresence um. So I do think
Speaker 1: that that's really useful when we like, I would like
Speaker 1: to how conflict is different. I would like to kind
Speaker 1: of like think about like January six, within these frameworks,
Speaker 1: right of how of how disinformation and information was used
Speaker 1: relatively successfully to get a lot of people to actually
Speaker 1: move towards the more um you know, kind of backed
Speaker 1: by half the state, backed you know, not backed by
Speaker 1: well the larger majority. And yeah, how like it's a
Speaker 1: it's like a synthesis of the fourth generation of fifth
Speaker 1: generous ideas, which is why you know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of overlap with these terms specifically um, but seeing how
Speaker 1: like one leads to another and it's not they're not
Speaker 1: necessarily alusion exclusionary. Yeah, I guess like the result is
Speaker 1: whether they win or lose. Right, that's that's like that
Speaker 1: that's what makes it a war? Is is the is
Speaker 1: the is like you decide afterwards based on the result. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it kind of Yeah, that's certainly like how
Speaker 1: more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan, it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much like a clear like World War One. There's an
Speaker 1: armistice and like negotiated end of the war and at
Speaker 1: a certain date at all ends. It was a lot
Speaker 1: we haven't done that since we haven't done that for
Speaker 1: the state, Like you know, I've never known the States
Speaker 1: to do that for a month, because if you don't
Speaker 1: do that, you don't have to admit you lost. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly right. If you just kind of like leave and
Speaker 1: ship gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be
Speaker 1: like for one thing, you can say like if we'd
Speaker 1: stayed and spend more money on that, or we could
Speaker 1: have we could have pulled it out, um, which is
Speaker 1: one of my Like there's a lot of great criticisms
Speaker 1: of how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year,
Speaker 1: a thousand of them. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it's like it was never going to be good, Like
Speaker 1: it was always it was this horrible war. We were
Speaker 1: killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything.
Speaker 1: And that fact was made really clear by the fact
Speaker 1: that as soon as we pulled out our guns, Um,
Speaker 1: everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And
Speaker 1: you can needle around the edges of how we could
Speaker 1: have you know, better taken care of people who we
Speaker 1: had made promises to or whatever. At the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it was always going to be fucked because
Speaker 1: it was a thing we never should have done. And
Speaker 1: that's that. Like this idea that Lynde has it like, no,
Speaker 1: if we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine,
Speaker 1: we have better like we have that. One of his
Speaker 1: big ideas is UM. He came up with this concept
Speaker 1: called movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps functions UM. And the idea behind movement
Speaker 1: warfare is like you should always have a bias towards action,
Speaker 1: and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this
Speaker 1: basically the evolution of a German tactic called ALP Drugs
Speaker 1: tact Tea, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So
Speaker 1: it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start
Speaker 1: to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't
Speaker 1: working great UM, and we should probably like figure out
Speaker 1: a way to get around these defenses. So they start
Speaker 1: training what are kind of the prototype of special forces,
Speaker 1: These like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in
Speaker 1: and not be seen and jump into the trenches and
Speaker 1: like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns
Speaker 1: and um, fight in a way that like soldiers had
Speaker 1: not really fought in a long time. A lot of
Speaker 1: it was like melee was this really and there were
Speaker 1: a lot of technical things had to get around. Barbed
Speaker 1: wire had to not be seen, how to like deal
Speaker 1: with machine gun nests, um. And one of the keys
Speaker 1: to it was like the German started to retrain their
Speaker 1: soldiers to were like you have to have like these
Speaker 1: individual units of five and ten men have to have
Speaker 1: like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to have
Speaker 1: autonomy and they need to be will able to like
Speaker 1: will tell them we need you to be in this
Speaker 1: this place at this point in time. But it's up
Speaker 1: to you to figure out how to do that because
Speaker 1: if you're if you've got this one guy who's three
Speaker 1: miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get mowed
Speaker 1: down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more nimble, um.
Speaker 1: And that's part of why in World War One, in
Speaker 1: in World War two, because the rest of the people
Speaker 1: fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not caught
Speaker 1: up to this kind of battle doctrine by the time
Speaker 1: World War Two was over, UM to the extent that
Speaker 1: the Germans had, And it's part of why there's such
Speaker 1: a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans in
Speaker 1: that war is they had what is very close to
Speaker 1: because all modern combat tactics are based on what the
Speaker 1: Germans started doing at the end of World War one
Speaker 1: UM and had really like nailed down to a science
Speaker 1: in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that,
Speaker 1: like we need to extend that and like that's the
Speaker 1: thing we've gotten too far away from and we need
Speaker 1: to have. You need to have like this bias towards
Speaker 1: movement and this the like officers need to be super
Speaker 1: aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options.
Speaker 1: And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show,
Speaker 1: this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights.
Speaker 1: But when was the last time the Marine Corps was
Speaker 1: on the side of a winning war. Like again, it
Speaker 1: doesn't we can all needle about how to make our
Speaker 1: troops better at like killing people, but at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into
Speaker 1: wars that are not winnable, and that's not something you're
Speaker 1: going to fix with battle doctrine and doesn't understand that
Speaker 1: because he's a fascist. And I think it's just like this,
Speaker 1: this is the real like weakness of their politics, which
Speaker 1: is that was like yeah, well, like it's it's they're
Speaker 1: they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell the difference
Speaker 1: between war and like they don't think there's a difference
Speaker 1: between war and politics, right, and that means that they
Speaker 1: think that there's a military solution to every political problem
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, there's not, and like this is
Speaker 1: this is how this is why is how they keep
Speaker 1: destroying themselves, right, is that they you know, like like
Speaker 1: this is what happened to the neo cons. I mean
Speaker 1: the neo cons are sort of held on in this
Speaker 1: kind of rump shell, but it's like neo conservatism and
Speaker 1: how they're just project Yeah. But but it's like you know,
Speaker 1: like they don't they don't have like even the people
Speaker 1: who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore?
Speaker 1: Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained
Speaker 1: it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart,
Speaker 1: like trying to conquer a rock, and it's like they
Speaker 1: all do this. They all eventually are like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: well we'll find a military solution to this, and it
Speaker 1: blows up in their face because it turns out that, no,
Speaker 1: you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all
Speaker 1: the syndicates a general progression into the more metapolitics idea
Speaker 1: and cultures politics ideas that we're trying to solve all
Speaker 1: these political problems, like at least like locally within us,
Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be trying to do them
Speaker 1: culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries, right
Speaker 1: because the more kind of the the idea of like
Speaker 1: let's just keep entering wars, which we're also doing at
Speaker 1: the same time, only very very like like very specific regions.
Speaker 1: But I mean the trend of like first, you know,
Speaker 1: like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's not really can
Speaker 1: Aniogon He preferred the cultural jamming like that was was
Speaker 1: his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in
Speaker 1: four years. And there there's an argument that lynd is
Speaker 1: a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda,
Speaker 1: even though I don't think he ever read his books.
Speaker 1: All the people he surrounded him with, where fans of Lend.
Speaker 1: There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like
Speaker 1: a copy of or at least Trump together with a
Speaker 1: copy of his book, um, which is titled, uh the
Speaker 1: Next Conservatism UM. And I'm gonna read a quote at
Speaker 1: this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for,
Speaker 1: that describes this book because it's it's uh useful. Um
Speaker 1: The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon
Speaker 1: way Rich, who's his co author on this, call a
Speaker 1: cultural called cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than
Speaker 1: mere policy, the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal
Speaker 1: and illegal immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust
Speaker 1: investments and domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in
Speaker 1: a less Trumpi in Vain. It also promotes homeschooling and
Speaker 1: incorporates some ideas of from the New Urbanism as part
Speaker 1: of a broader program called Retrocal Chure. Of its connection
Speaker 1: with Trump, lynd says the book runs parallel to what
Speaker 1: he has been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity
Speaker 1: with its more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that
Speaker 1: is going to be really unsettling. And this, I think
Speaker 1: is what lynd may actually be going for, rather than
Speaker 1: any kind of reform in the military to improve its
Speaker 1: ability to win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen four, an
Speaker 1: article appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and
Speaker 1: two of the authors of the nineteen piece, where he
Speaker 1: introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended on
Speaker 1: a dire note. The point is not merely that America's
Speaker 1: armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state conflicts
Speaker 1: and forces overseas. The point is that the same conflicts
Speaker 1: are coming here. The next real war we fight is
Speaker 1: likely to be on American soil. So that's what's going
Speaker 1: on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased towards
Speaker 1: action and increased killing power. If all you're really trying
Speaker 1: to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you using
Speaker 1: the military very quickly, well that might work for you.
Speaker 1: People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction
Speaker 1: book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like
Speaker 1: TV tropes, um, the there's a TV It's not just
Speaker 1: TV tropes anymore. Like there's a trope page from my
Speaker 1: book After the Revolution and it's directly compared to Victoria,
Speaker 1: as like they're the opposites of each other because Victoria
Speaker 1: is like a book about a civil war in the
Speaker 1: US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win
Speaker 1: and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the
Speaker 1: problem is that like like like all of these like
Speaker 1: the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists like leaders who
Speaker 1: get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they
Speaker 1: reintroduced to the to the society, and like California is
Speaker 1: so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um.
Speaker 1: And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, like it's it's all. So the person who
Speaker 1: wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's
Speaker 1: a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject
Speaker 1: of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong,
Speaker 1: but not that part. I know. But it's a fucking
Speaker 1: nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits of it.
Speaker 1: Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing. But
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing with all with all of these
Speaker 1: like cultural gamers, like they try to put on like
Speaker 1: war aesthetics, but all of them are the nerdiest fuckers
Speaker 1: he'll ever. He's so stupid, and I like all these
Speaker 1: guys are so they're so nerdy, all of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like lynd, everything about him makes sense when you
Speaker 1: understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the
Speaker 1: fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a
Speaker 1: little but also like again, he was not lying about
Speaker 1: there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book.
Speaker 1: He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like
Speaker 1: pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and
Speaker 1: have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among
Speaker 1: like the American right. His books have been found in
Speaker 1: like al Qaeda hideouts and ship Like. He makes sense
Speaker 1: though that that that that like all of all of
Speaker 1: that really tracks is because yeah, like the the barrier
Speaker 1: between like terrorist action as a part of fourth generation
Speaker 1: and in some ways fifth generation warfare and then the
Speaker 1: type of like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: Like that is like that is the goal of it
Speaker 1: is to make it work that way. So that doesn't
Speaker 1: surprise me that those types of terrorist groups would be
Speaker 1: reading his books for advice so or for like to
Speaker 1: like figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: well that's probably enough talking about william S lind for
Speaker 1: today and cultural and the fourth generation, we'll talk There's
Speaker 1: a lot to dig into about how these ideas have
Speaker 1: influenced chunks of the right, how they're currently still being
Speaker 1: used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going on
Speaker 1: right now. And again I do think particularly the idea
Speaker 1: of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict. I
Speaker 1: would I would go as far as to say, like crucial. Um,
Speaker 1: so this is necessary background information to people to have,
Speaker 1: for people to have for like some of the other ship.
Speaker 1: We're going to be continuing to talk in this about
Speaker 1: in this series as we you know, as we talk
Speaker 1: more about kind of kinetic conflicts or at least building
Speaker 1: towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I think this is
Speaker 1: this is a useful kind of grounding. And now I'm
Speaker 1: going to send Chris and Garrison off to write an
Speaker 1: episode explaining who hegel is and everything he believed. I Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. You're gonna you're gonna hear you
Speaker 1: you will watch me go mad in real time. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be great. Yeah. The other option is I can
Speaker 1: just read the Wikipedia page for Hegel with like a
Speaker 1: really offensive German accent. That that's better than that. Actually better.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to I will. I promise you one thing,
Speaker 1: which is that I will wind up either Russian or
Speaker 1: Australian by the end. I can't stop that drift when
Speaker 1: I whenever I start doing. You know, I am a
Speaker 1: good chairman. Y'ah. My name is Mr Hegel, the absolute
Speaker 1: on media. We're gonna stop that right now. I probably
Speaker 1: should look for your children's eyes to see the true
Speaker 1: magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them.
Speaker 1: You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled
Speaker 1: face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.
Speaker 1: They see treasure in pebbles, They see a windy path
Speaker 1: that could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence on
Speaker 1: season two of Our podcast. We're exploring what it means
Speaker 1: to be a woman on social media. We're going into
Speaker 1: different pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is
Speaker 1: a reflection of all the weights that women are mistreated
Speaker 1: in our society, and we might just have a plan
Speaker 1: to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season
Speaker 1: two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on February
Speaker 1: ten on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Oh Macron, great timing. M hm,
Speaker 1: I love Oh Macron. I'm Robert Evans. This is it
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison,
Speaker 1: What do you? What do you? How do you? How
Speaker 1: do you feel about? Oh Macron? This is the thing
Speaker 1: to do with the topic we're talking about. So this
Speaker 1: is this is an update. A few of right last
Speaker 1: week were earlier this week we discussed the uh the
Speaker 1: Trucker Convoy scheduled our episode recorded before the Truck Convoy
Speaker 1: for after the Truck Convoy had already done a bunch
Speaker 1: of things, which was really good. So we we recorded
Speaker 1: to talk about the fifty trucks that were that we're
Speaker 1: going to show up at Ottawa and the thing things
Speaker 1: did happen, Maybe not that not because like I've been listening,
Speaker 1: some of their claims are like an Alex Jones is
Speaker 1: parenting there now that it was like eight hundred thousand
Speaker 1: to a million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers
Speaker 1: in all of Canada, like but it was like it
Speaker 1: was like it was a lot of people like not
Speaker 1: to not to downplay what happened. So we're going to
Speaker 1: give an update on what happened there and kind of
Speaker 1: discussed maybe any ramifications that stuff like this could have
Speaker 1: going forward. But to help with that, um, we have
Speaker 1: Dan who came on last time to help discuss Hello,
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on again to talk about the
Speaker 1: same thing. Thank you for having me. We last less
Speaker 1: off with you saying that you hope I don't come
Speaker 1: back on again because that would be a good thing
Speaker 1: and it would mean that the bad things did not happen.
Speaker 1: So sorry to be here under such circumstances. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: want to go over the bad Yeah, So let's let's
Speaker 1: briefly do like a recap of like what this thing
Speaker 1: was like, like why why was it happening? And like
Speaker 1: what was the idea. When we last left Canada, a
Speaker 1: bunch of truckers were angry that they had to present
Speaker 1: evations evidence of vaccination. This spiraled and, as I'm understanding it,
Speaker 1: at some point then rejecting all public health measures. Yes. Actually,
Speaker 1: the the exact demands are for the federal and provincial
Speaker 1: governments to quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other
Speaker 1: obligatory obligatory vaccine contact tracing program uh, to terminate COVID
Speaker 1: vaccine mandates UH, and quote respect the rights of those
Speaker 1: who wished to remain unvaccinated UH. And here's where it
Speaker 1: gets weird. UH. Avisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with
Speaker 1: government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's
Speaker 1: fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures
Speaker 1: with the goal of censoring those who have varying or
Speaker 1: incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you all know what a government is? Evidentitally I was
Speaker 1: at some debates in with the state that went a
Speaker 1: lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we we we can talk about that. This this the
Speaker 1: standoff has been well there's been just that it's been
Speaker 1: a standoff in that regard. So it seems like they've
Speaker 1: kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and threatened
Speaker 1: a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food, and
Speaker 1: that they left trash everywhere and set up a checkpoint
Speaker 1: on the border or just a blockade on the border.
Speaker 1: I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going
Speaker 1: on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy
Speaker 1: is an Alberta and coop right now, But I might
Speaker 1: be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It
Speaker 1: was something along the lines of we don't think there's
Speaker 1: like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a little after two pm t D on a
Speaker 1: lafter two thirty pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter
Speaker 1: slowly said in a press conference that quote, there may
Speaker 1: not be a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it
Speaker 1: really that easy? It's evidently it's that easy if you
Speaker 1: wait till kind of like the media has had a
Speaker 1: few days and most of the coverage is just like
Speaker 1: breaking bad things still happening. Uh so it's it's not great.
Speaker 1: So what what was the lead up on set? Right?
Speaker 1: Because they were all they were all all the trucks
Speaker 1: and caravans and stuff. We're supposed to rive on Saturday.
Speaker 1: What was the lead up on Saturday? Like? And like
Speaker 1: what what what happened like the actual first day? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Saturday was technically the first day. Actually Friday. Throughout
Speaker 1: the day a lot of people started arriving. So the
Speaker 1: occupation has been we're recording now Wednesday. Um, it started
Speaker 1: on Friday and the main like the largest contingent of
Speaker 1: the convoy was staying overnight Friday night in a nearby
Speaker 1: town called Armfire west of Ottawa, and they moved in
Speaker 1: from Armpire to Ottawa on Saturday morning. At the same time,
Speaker 1: people converged from other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's
Speaker 1: east is Quebec, and to Quebec's east the maritime provinces,
Speaker 1: and three thousand people at least came from Quebec and
Speaker 1: so with the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming
Speaker 1: in from different parts. The day between Friday night and
Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon and Saturday was kind of the big day,
Speaker 1: the big party, Uh, the main point of contention and
Speaker 1: the main thing that happened was some major streets are
Speaker 1: gridlocked by vehicles moving into the city into the very
Speaker 1: crowded core of auto of my hometown and staying stationary
Speaker 1: on busy roads. Both commercial and residential roads are part
Speaker 1: of this. Driveways for both businesses and residences were blocked off,
Speaker 1: fire roads were blocked off, and wance roads are blocked off.
Speaker 1: Local businesses that stayed open had to close throughout the
Speaker 1: day Saturday, largely UH, some managed to not, and many
Speaker 1: of just stayed closed already because they knew what was
Speaker 1: going to happen, and this happened. Closures that happened on
Speaker 1: Saturday are mostly still going on today as I'm speaking
Speaker 1: to you Wednesday night. UH closures followed patterns of harassment,
Speaker 1: some alleged assaults which Rover mentioned before elso happened at
Speaker 1: homeless shelter in downtown Ottawa and pretty much everyone I've
Speaker 1: spoken to I've I've been in Ottawa visiting it to
Speaker 1: my hometown, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to who
Speaker 1: lives in the downtown core is that a slew of
Speaker 1: story since Saturday of either harassment at work or just
Speaker 1: harassment walking through the streets. And the worst part of
Speaker 1: it all is that right now there's not a clear
Speaker 1: ending in sight. What is it like on the ground
Speaker 1: there in terms of I know, there's like kind of
Speaker 1: like a blockade around the border. But they're like, what
Speaker 1: else is like around Ottawa? What's like? What? Like? What
Speaker 1: what is what's it like to walk around in these places?
Speaker 1: And like how big is the area that these people
Speaker 1: are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are
Speaker 1: they all sleeping in their trucks? Staying at hotels? What's
Speaker 1: like what's like the It's an excellent question. There's there's
Speaker 1: a mix of hotels were booked up the week leading
Speaker 1: up to the weekend. As as the new cycle kind
Speaker 1: of exploded, more and more people called into hotels in Ottawa.
Speaker 1: A lot of people actually brought tractors. People are also
Speaker 1: sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course, people have like
Speaker 1: family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're staying with um.
Speaker 1: It's a mix of everything. Actually, I know a guy
Speaker 1: who even his car was like blocked off in the
Speaker 1: parking lot. He has to parking because he's downtown. He
Speaker 1: doesn't have street parking or driveway parking like it's in
Speaker 1: a public lot, and he couldn't get his car out
Speaker 1: for over a full day because an RP camper set
Speaker 1: up near him and just blocked him off. So it's
Speaker 1: a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday, there's like
Speaker 1: a lot of partying, a lot of music, a lot
Speaker 1: of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit more chaotic
Speaker 1: and less condensed since then. And also the area is
Speaker 1: hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly as vehicles
Speaker 1: move out for one reason or another. Streets are kind
Speaker 1: of being retaken back organically by the city, but then
Speaker 1: sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back by the convoy.
Speaker 1: So the occupation has been a little fluid on some
Speaker 1: of the outside streets. Wellington's Street, which is the street
Speaker 1: outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been consistently occupied, to
Speaker 1: my knowledge, blocking off kind of not actually blocking off,
Speaker 1: but you have to walk past them as a pedestrian
Speaker 1: to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's where the kind
Speaker 1: of the core is, the action of the action is,
Speaker 1: and everything else spreads out from that. And near hotels, uh,
Speaker 1: there's a little more action because that's generally where people
Speaker 1: are staying how has members of parliament and like local
Speaker 1: politicians been reacting since Saturday. I know there was there
Speaker 1: was some videos of like I think one of the
Speaker 1: MP's from Alberta was giving an interview that gained some
Speaker 1: traction online. Um, but yeah, it's kind of curious, like
Speaker 1: how the like different government officials are talking about this.
Speaker 1: I'm actually so glad you asked that because as of today,
Speaker 1: the divide in members of Parliament has actually led to
Speaker 1: some pretty incredible political ramifications. So last time we spoke,
Speaker 1: I think Arin O'Toole had just earlier in the day
Speaker 1: endorsed compoints that he'd be coming down. Arin o't tool,
Speaker 1: for those unaware, is the leader of the Conservative Party
Speaker 1: of Canada. He's a real, real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown?
Speaker 1: No one, No one could have seen that joke coming.
Speaker 1: Every every Canadian listener just like collectively roll. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: Aeron o't tool and just endorsed the convoy. He'd been
Speaker 1: getting some tough questions about it following everything we just
Speaker 1: talked about and more. Aerono's to will walk that back
Speaker 1: and said, you know, he didn't approve of the way
Speaker 1: that the convoy was acting in Ottawa. This led to
Speaker 1: a swift referendum on his leadership, and earlier today aerono'
Speaker 1: tool was voted out as the Conservative Party leader in
Speaker 1: Canada and that does have pretty big ramifications. I know,
Speaker 1: I talked about Erin o'tol a decent amount in my
Speaker 1: previous Canada episodes for codapp and here. Um, so yeah,
Speaker 1: it will be really interesting to see who, uh what's
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea of when the new person
Speaker 1: is going to try to get voted it? Like, when
Speaker 1: when do you think that process is going to happen
Speaker 1: to fill that spot. I'm actually not sure. I haven't
Speaker 1: looked up when it's gonna happen. It feels like there's
Speaker 1: been months before. Whether there's an intimaters of the Conservative Party.
Speaker 1: The main concern right now for those outside of Conservative
Speaker 1: politics is because Erin o'tool was considered relatively moderate. That
Speaker 1: you talked about in the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin
Speaker 1: O'Toole picked out Darren Sloan from the party for being
Speaker 1: pretty kit on donations from neo Nazi Paul Front on
Speaker 1: his campaign. Uh. Overall, like that's a pretty great thing
Speaker 1: that Erin o'tool that kicked him out of the caucus,
Speaker 1: like regardless of other elements of that leadership. Uh, there's
Speaker 1: worrying that that kind of won't be continued forward, especially
Speaker 1: because Sloan was also in the leadership race and Sloan
Speaker 1: has only gotten further right since then. It is just
Speaker 1: despite air no tools, not great aspects, which there are
Speaker 1: lots of. He did, he did, he did take it.
Speaker 1: He did kind of hold back some of the more
Speaker 1: problematic uh conservative like elements, whether that be you know,
Speaker 1: people from you know, from his own party, like like Derek,
Speaker 1: and then also keeping kind of the people's party stuff
Speaker 1: at bay Um. Yeah, and that will be an interesting
Speaker 1: kind of power struggle now, that will be something to observe.
Speaker 1: I think the thing that concerns me most about all
Speaker 1: of this is the implication of the implications for this
Speaker 1: is a tactic. We saw a version of this that
Speaker 1: was more limited in scope and time in Portland when
Speaker 1: this huge Trump caravan rolled through downtown, blocked off big
Speaker 1: chunks of downtown and like just maced and shot people
Speaker 1: with paintball guns at random, and it was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I think everyone there surprised at how many folks they
Speaker 1: got for it. Um, this is a much more evolved
Speaker 1: version of the same tactic. And it's kind of stuff
Speaker 1: we talked about in the season one of it could
Speaker 1: happen here. This idea of like people coming from these
Speaker 1: conservative majority areas in a place where the vast majority
Speaker 1: of people are liberal but centralized in the cities UM
Speaker 1: and blocking those cities off or otherwise disrupting their ability
Speaker 1: to transit UM, potentially their ability to get things shipped
Speaker 1: in like food UM, like their ability to use free
Speaker 1: movement UM. And we've seen pieces of this again in
Speaker 1: a bunch of places, and in Oregon during the wildfires,
Speaker 1: you had these rural communities setting up checkpoints and stuff
Speaker 1: looking for people from the cities that they could bill
Speaker 1: as Antifa. And it's this it's this world worrying trend
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. Number One, when you get
Speaker 1: ten people to do something like this, even if the
Speaker 1: city has hundreds of thousands of people, that's effectively too
Speaker 1: large a group to police UM. And the police don't
Speaker 1: want to police it anyway, so there's not even really
Speaker 1: an attempt to stop of them UM. And it's a
Speaker 1: way in which the vast majority of Canada, at least
Speaker 1: based on the polling I'm aware of. UM is not
Speaker 1: in support of the causes these guys are backing. Was
Speaker 1: it of the country supports some level of like vaccine mandates, um,
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly the last one I read. So
Speaker 1: this is not a popular movement. It's not even super
Speaker 1: popular among the truckers, like the actual it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: how many people in the cities you can get. If
Speaker 1: you can get fifty people to do something like this,
Speaker 1: the police won't will not take action, and you can
Speaker 1: negatively impact the lives of a huge number of millions
Speaker 1: before it gets radical, right, that's when these guys are
Speaker 1: not coming in with guns with the express plan to
Speaker 1: eliminate people or trying to specifically block up food. They're
Speaker 1: just kind of sucking around now. But it's this kind
Speaker 1: of is this thing we've talked about where you have
Speaker 1: this is the thing in Canada and the United States
Speaker 1: you had liberals kind of outsourcing the protection of society
Speaker 1: to this group of increasingly heavily armed and aradiqualized people
Speaker 1: who are now in a lot of cases fascists. UM.
Speaker 1: And that means that when there's a problem with a
Speaker 1: large chunk of people who hate everything, you stand for
Speaker 1: the people that you have completely outsourced protection to are
Speaker 1: all unfavor of fucking with you because they hate you.
Speaker 1: And it's it's a problem in Oregon, It's going to
Speaker 1: be a problem in fucking New York City or whatever
Speaker 1: at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know, am I am I off base here? Am
Speaker 1: I am? I am You're not on base at all?
Speaker 1: And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to
Speaker 1: really elaborate on past what you said the last time
Speaker 1: we spoke. I think, Robert, you said there's not a
Speaker 1: whole lot. It was what you said that could really
Speaker 1: really be done with the vehicle occupation tactic and unless
Speaker 1: a lot of people are willing to meet them with
Speaker 1: an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's
Speaker 1: an Ottawas. Ottawas a relatively large city in Canada. There's
Speaker 1: over a million people that live here. Also by land mass,
Speaker 1: I think the largest city in Canada, like east to west,
Speaker 1: it's it's very spread out, so it's a low population density.
Speaker 1: So even the affected area downtown is actually like pretty
Speaker 1: small in relation to the city itself, which is pretty
Speaker 1: unfortunate and like it's not a particularly packed downtown for
Speaker 1: a large sis downtown. I am. I am curious kind
Speaker 1: of on the violence aspect um has Like I know,
Speaker 1: there's been like um increase in death threats to members
Speaker 1: of parliament, like specifically liberal members of parliament, specifically liberal
Speaker 1: members of parliament who are women who are maybe not white. Um.
Speaker 1: So I would curious see if if you have any
Speaker 1: more kind of information on that side of things, and
Speaker 1: then how how violence has popped up in a few
Speaker 1: places throughout the past like a week. Basically, Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: been a lot. So, I mean, even if you're going
Speaker 1: by what's reported like right now, there is by most estimates,
Speaker 1: under a thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very
Speaker 1: far spread out people as part of the convoy. As
Speaker 1: of yesterday, there's thirteen active police investigations. The police of
Speaker 1: the city the City of Ottawa said in the an Oppressor.
Speaker 1: We obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in
Speaker 1: anything this big, there's way more that's not being reported,
Speaker 1: not being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like
Speaker 1: these things are going to thirteen is going to be
Speaker 1: resultful of something bad. So some of the things that happened.
Speaker 1: Robert mentioned before the alleged assaults on a houseless person
Speaker 1: inside of Shepherds of Good Hope, in which a security
Speaker 1: guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was
Speaker 1: a house that deplayed displayed a rainbow flag outside of
Speaker 1: it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um,
Speaker 1: they're being we need to get a hundred thousand people
Speaker 1: together to throw their own poop back at these people.
Speaker 1: It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with fire?
Speaker 1: Is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from just
Speaker 1: a tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's been suggestions all of our social media channels on
Speaker 1: like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught.
Speaker 1: Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence. So like what
Speaker 1: I think maybe some context that that isn't always known
Speaker 1: in Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in restaurants
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown following
Speaker 1: around the chron wave and a lot of people even
Speaker 1: coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to people
Speaker 1: on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know like
Speaker 1: when the restaurants around here opens, so we can like
Speaker 1: sit down for a meal. And I was like, there's
Speaker 1: no sitting down on auto this. So what people were doing,
Speaker 1: they were going inside cafe is like two burns and stuff,
Speaker 1: and they were just refusing to leave in eating their
Speaker 1: food there anyways. And if there was no seats, they
Speaker 1: were just like eating in line. It was also minus
Speaker 1: twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very very
Speaker 1: cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning,
Speaker 1: so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a
Speaker 1: lot of other options other than like swarm the malls
Speaker 1: and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main
Speaker 1: mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the
Speaker 1: day because it was not a safe place. So I
Speaker 1: already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence,
Speaker 1: but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless
Speaker 1: honking if you watch video footage from it, and even
Speaker 1: in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like
Speaker 1: I can hear honking in my background. Um. Some people
Speaker 1: allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an
Speaker 1: unknown soldier which is yeah, this isn't political. Is even
Speaker 1: the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's
Speaker 1: fun about this for these people, it's that they suck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking it's just it's just fucking cooliganism. Uh And
Speaker 1: that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot more stories coming out, for sure, U as things progress,
Speaker 1: um of stories of harassment, Like I've talked to people
Speaker 1: who have gotten a cat call in the night. People
Speaker 1: getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are going
Speaker 1: to break out. It's kind of at a very tense
Speaker 1: point right now. And Auto we're at that point. We're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're seeing some signs like pops getting thrown at the houses.
Speaker 1: What's gonna happen next? Because the police are saying they
Speaker 1: don't have a plan, and the truckers are saying they're
Speaker 1: not leaving. What's it like outside of Bottawa, across across
Speaker 1: all the other places where there's like similar activity happening.
Speaker 1: They're all looking to us and being concerned. From what
Speaker 1: I'm talking to, Uh, anti fascists and Alberta are particularly
Speaker 1: concerned right now with the coop protests. There's ongoing to uh,
Speaker 1: I keep seeing popping up like US Canada border activities.
Speaker 1: In the same there's a few attempted convoys by Americans
Speaker 1: and even before in Europe there was a few attempts.
Speaker 1: Some got turned away. Some Americans got turned away the
Speaker 1: Canadian borders. They weren't vaccinated. H Yeah, which is you know,
Speaker 1: like it's like you think, because that's the reason they're
Speaker 1: saying they're protesting, they would have remembered that and thought
Speaker 1: maybe that's gonna like come into play, But I don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, because there is a certain point where
Speaker 1: if you get enough people going, it would be interesting
Speaker 1: to see people really do just try to like drive
Speaker 1: through the border. M Yeah. And I mean there's been
Speaker 1: people like you look at social media channels, a lot
Speaker 1: of them saying like the borders are blocked right now
Speaker 1: with thousands of truckers supporting our cause. So if you
Speaker 1: saw that and you believed it, and then you went
Speaker 1: to the border and your turn away reading a vaccine,
Speaker 1: you meant thought, well, I thought I had you know,
Speaker 1: nine people the same causes being we're ready to use
Speaker 1: for us, which begs the question, but what happens when
Speaker 1: you do exactly. I don't want to find out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if
Speaker 1: they do, if they did have what they say they had,
Speaker 1: would they just start doing those things and not even
Speaker 1: think about it and not even think about like the
Speaker 1: politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I should also mention too, we talked last time about
Speaker 1: a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were
Speaker 1: broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh,
Speaker 1: and it came out the news to do was first
Speaker 1: reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian
Speaker 1: Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up
Speaker 1: striges in No Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he
Speaker 1: was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jonestones
Speaker 1: Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program,
Speaker 1: So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great, that's
Speaker 1: what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond
Speaker 1: the conservative leadership? What other kind of political implications are
Speaker 1: people thinking about in Canada? It's really tense seeing what's
Speaker 1: gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a
Speaker 1: second wave some other people in other places that kind
Speaker 1: of didn't think the first one is going to be
Speaker 1: huge success. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation,
Speaker 1: we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave.
Speaker 1: It's a very tense place right now. We don't really
Speaker 1: know what to do. Community places are taking direct community
Speaker 1: members are talking about taking direct action because it's been
Speaker 1: so long. This isn't something that the city of Otta
Speaker 1: is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so
Speaker 1: the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming
Speaker 1: is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number.
Speaker 1: I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thou people
Speaker 1: into a city of over a million, which isn't really
Speaker 1: that many when you think about it, but the strategy
Speaker 1: was very, very effective. You think about how many fighters
Speaker 1: it took for Josh to take control of mosl it
Speaker 1: if people if there's not resistance, like there's only really
Speaker 1: a few areas of a city that you need to
Speaker 1: occupy in order to have a great deal of control
Speaker 1: over what can be done. Yeah, and that's the tough
Speaker 1: part is they have a lot of control over that
Speaker 1: small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've also just to see has the Canadian military said
Speaker 1: anything about these protests and the situation. So the Ottawa
Speaker 1: Police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot
Speaker 1: about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying
Speaker 1: he doesn't think military is the only option, which if
Speaker 1: you're an activist on the other side of things and
Speaker 1: worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that
Speaker 1: might be a good thing to hear. Yea and a
Speaker 1: see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military
Speaker 1: would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa
Speaker 1: had other police forces coming to They said they're spending
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh, initially to just
Speaker 1: costing police. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws,
Speaker 1: only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing
Speaker 1: started in the ocupied zone. So it's it's unclear what
Speaker 1: a lot of them did other than you know, keep
Speaker 1: up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around, I saw
Speaker 1: York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's
Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence,
Speaker 1: especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had
Speaker 1: plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I
Speaker 1: thought it would die later, or a mixture of all
Speaker 1: the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some
Speaker 1: police officers have not been happy with it, but there
Speaker 1: hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no
Speaker 1: one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like
Speaker 1: from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the
Speaker 1: auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken,
Speaker 1: some saying otherwise, it's not really united right now. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's scary. Is there any counter protests being planned for Ottawa?
Speaker 1: If I knew, i'd say so, because by the time
Speaker 1: this errors, they would have happened. So I think you'd
Speaker 1: be safe to talk talk about. But fortunately I'm not
Speaker 1: really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it might not
Speaker 1: be the best person to ask. Yeah, we're keeping an
Speaker 1: eye out. Well. The good news is that all men die,
Speaker 1: and so long as men die, liberty will never perish. Right,
Speaker 1: that's good it's an upside. That is an upside, it's
Speaker 1: an up positive shot. All right, Well, that's gonna do
Speaker 1: it for us. We'll keep an eye on this and
Speaker 1: um what what results from it, because it's all pretty concerning,
Speaker 1: um and worth having having an eye. And I'm particularly
Speaker 1: curious is to just like what kind of direct community
Speaker 1: responses to this develop because I think that's going to
Speaker 1: wind up being the only long term solution. You know,
Speaker 1: It's kind of what people saw in Portland that you
Speaker 1: there's a there's a degree to which like the only
Speaker 1: thing that really works as a response is is outnumbering them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: on that note, it might be maybe not the smoothest transition.
Speaker 1: But there are actually some Autowa mutual Aid funds and
Speaker 1: then Advocate Secrets that are doing some some cool stuff.
Speaker 1: And there's there's too many of the list for everyone,
Speaker 1: but others have compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to
Speaker 1: you there so ROSE Ottawa, which stands for Rainbow Autowa
Speaker 1: Student Experience as there's two s l G B t
Speaker 1: q I A plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin
Speaker 1: on a Shnave territory. Though they have closed op donations
Speaker 1: for themselves following a wonderful spike recently. They have a
Speaker 1: list of black lead and black empowering organizations on their
Speaker 1: website with donation links and you can reach that at
Speaker 1: Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh, there's a cool
Speaker 1: little Instagram account called transis Beautiful O T T O
Speaker 1: T T stands for Ottawa and that's all one word.
Speaker 1: It's been plugging small fundraisers for queer folks affected by
Speaker 1: the Convoy, including housing support on their Instagram. Again, that's
Speaker 1: transis Beautiful O T T on Instagram. Uh. Something we
Speaker 1: didn't get to talk about, which is ram Ranch Ram
Speaker 1: Ranch dot c A r A n dash Ranch dot
Speaker 1: c A a website was set up in the name
Speaker 1: of trolling the convoy zelo chats and has been doing
Speaker 1: a fantastic job about there's a whole army of trolls
Speaker 1: in the Trucker's elo chats and it's been really entertaining
Speaker 1: to tune into. They've compiled the list of charities on
Speaker 1: their website. You can check that out at ram dash
Speaker 1: Ranch dot c A and clicking on the Rancher's donation
Speaker 1: zone and yeah, where can where can people find you?
Speaker 1: On the Internet. People can find me on the Internet.
Speaker 1: I'm super active on Twitter at at spineless L where
Speaker 1: it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully, hopefully this
Speaker 1: gets all resolved and I don't need to fly up
Speaker 1: to Canada to go to a protest, and if if
Speaker 1: we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting to go
Speaker 1: to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can, we can?
Speaker 1: We can uh take drugs at to Morton's. Would Yeah? God,
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't vomited in a tim Horton's bathroom
Speaker 1: in a long time. Our local McDonald's that got famous
Speaker 1: on the internet for fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon
Speaker 1: out of their backpack during had to actually stop being
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after the mayor pleaded with them because
Speaker 1: it was using up too many police resources. That is
Speaker 1: the best kind of place in a year. That's so dope.
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, I wanna. I want to set up
Speaker 1: somewhere on the border in the East coast to tim Horton's,
Speaker 1: directly across the street from a waffle house and just
Speaker 1: let them fight. Well, yeah, we we do. We we
Speaker 1: do this. That here, that's that's you'll have to bring
Speaker 1: that for you have to bring that over, bring a
Speaker 1: waffle house fives over. All you need to do is
Speaker 1: watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually you're at
Speaker 1: a waffle house. That that ties back to the future
Speaker 1: of the convoy. You're right, well, that doesn't for us today, everybody,
Speaker 1: when people'll see you later. Hey, we'll be back Monday
Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat
Speaker 1: death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at
Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: The art world it is essentially a money laundering business.
Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You
Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes.
Speaker 1: I'm Out Like Baldwin and is a podcast about deception, greed,
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. I just walked in
Speaker 1: and saw this bright red painting, presuming to be a
Speaker 1: Rothko of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money
Speaker 1: to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to
Speaker 1: what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible
Speaker 1: mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. UM.
Speaker 1: Listen to art fraud on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.