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Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History

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Speaker 1: Unplot Now. It really is a dream come true to

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Speaker 1: get paid to talk about history without all the stress,

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Speaker 1: while still being able to make a living, And I

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Speaker 1: did it with Spreaker from my Heart. Not only did

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Speaker 1: they make it super easy to monetize my podcast, but

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Speaker 1: at revenue is three to four times higher with Spreaker

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Speaker 1: than with any other host I've worked with. So if

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Speaker 1: you want to turn your passion into a podcast and

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Speaker 1: give this a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's sp

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Speaker 1: r e a k e er dot com. Get paid

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Speaker 1: to talk about the things you love. I'm j Calburn,

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Speaker 1: host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

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Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges

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Speaker 1: and even helped a hit man walk free until one

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Speaker 1: day when he started talking with the FBI and promised

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Speaker 1: that he could take the mob down. I've spent the

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Speaker 1: past year trying to figure out why he flipped and

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Speaker 1: what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to our show. I'm

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Speaker 1: Zoe Deschanel and I'm so excited to be joined by

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Speaker 1: my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar and

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Speaker 1: Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl. Join

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Speaker 1: us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast,

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Speaker 1: where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

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Speaker 1: New Girl episodes. Each week, we answer all your burnie

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Speaker 1: questions like is there really a bear in every episode

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Speaker 1: of New Girl? Plus you'll hear hilarious stories like this

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Speaker 1: that was one of your things you brought back from

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Speaker 1: yea all professional basketball players. Yeah, listen to the Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gotta

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Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make

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Speaker 1: your own decisions. What a all right? The show started, Garrison. Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Canada again, so yeah, um

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Speaker 1: and to discuss Canada and politics and the happenings here.

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Speaker 1: We have another journalist who writes for I Believe Anti

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Speaker 1: Hate Canada and like the Canadian Anti Hate Network and

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Speaker 1: also Vice. I Believe Right, I've written for Vice. I'm

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Speaker 1: currently researching full time and extremism researcher for It's a

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Speaker 1: new initiative called the Online Hate Research and Education Project.

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Speaker 1: It's actually partnered with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and

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Speaker 1: it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center, which

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Speaker 1: might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited for

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Speaker 1: you guys to get into a twit their fight with

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Speaker 1: James Lindsay. I can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has

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Speaker 1: joined us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a

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Speaker 1: few messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's

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Speaker 1: in Alberta called me a few days ago to talk

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Speaker 1: about this thing that's happening. So it's been it's it's

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Speaker 1: I'm getting a lot of things, and it's definitely worth discussing,

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Speaker 1: specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using

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Speaker 1: around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand

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Speaker 1: it to Dan to talk about what like how did

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Speaker 1: this thing, like what is it? And how did it

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Speaker 1: kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone,

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Speaker 1: by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single

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Speaker 1: person's mother in the entire country is called using about it.

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Speaker 1: I just got another message literally right now, like literally

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Speaker 1: this second. It's gonna nothing. Moms of Canada have been activated.

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Speaker 1: Moms in Canada, I've been activated, but not in exactly

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Speaker 1: the same way that they're being perceived to be. So

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I might get into

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Speaker 1: a little bit later, but I'm kind of like against

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Speaker 1: even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah. It was started

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Speaker 1: on January and by a former Wigsit party now called

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Speaker 1: the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and a group of

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Speaker 1: like very active far right grassroots protesters. You do a

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Speaker 1: lot of organizing like this, uh, and most of them,

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Speaker 1: most of their activities kind of go back to tea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah, like this,

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Speaker 1: I mean there's links to people that have been doing

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Speaker 1: it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now, but

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Speaker 1: a non binding motion against U I think it's a

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Speaker 1: M three. A few years ago really mobilized people, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of been more consistent since then of the

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Speaker 1: same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how

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Speaker 1: we got to that point and now like those same

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Speaker 1: people are still kind of behind what's going on right now.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all

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Speaker 1: the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um and

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Speaker 1: Canada a truckers and so this thing was kind of

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Speaker 1: originally organized by some like known far right figures and

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Speaker 1: the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which

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Speaker 1: kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It

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Speaker 1: just morphed, right, morphed into a very strong anti vax

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Speaker 1: of presence in Canada right now, the antibacks movements getting

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Speaker 1: a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run by

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Speaker 1: these guys who were doing we Exit, which is like

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Speaker 1: West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for

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Speaker 1: Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest

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Speaker 1: of Canada's too liberal. Um, so we Exit and the

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Speaker 1: Elves have really changed all of their focuses into this

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Speaker 1: anti vax thing as a way to do recruiting, and

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Speaker 1: they've prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to

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Speaker 1: Ottawa UM for few specific reasons, which I think Dan

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Speaker 1: probably knows a little bit more about than I do.

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Speaker 1: Like I I know the gist of it, but you've

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Speaker 1: been focused on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess the main reason is it works um like

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Speaker 1: just from the perspective of getting attention and being able

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Speaker 1: to get a message out. UM. There's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of traction on this that these scripts don't normally get.

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Speaker 1: I think the last trucker convoy UM that was done

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Speaker 1: under this sort of umbrella, it had like nine I

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Speaker 1: think was the total amount of like trucks that made

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Speaker 1: it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to

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Speaker 1: be done and it was basically the same demands and

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Speaker 1: the same reasons. So this one was started on January

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Speaker 1: and it didn't get that much fuzz the first couple

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Speaker 1: of days. The original goal was set at a hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once

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Speaker 1: it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first

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Speaker 1: million pretty fast. In ways that like these fundraisers really

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Speaker 1: really don't. Like the last big one we saw in

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Speaker 1: Canada that was quite alarm me in that fast cap

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Speaker 1: out under four thousand dollars and that was um for

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Speaker 1: a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests last

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Speaker 1: year and uh ended up getting like all it's it's

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Speaker 1: a bad door shut down. So there's a lot more

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Speaker 1: money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser

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Speaker 1: which was supposed to go like hand in hand with

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Speaker 1: these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that

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Speaker 1: they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're

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Speaker 1: not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into

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Speaker 1: Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type

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Speaker 1: thing because they're saying that they were not going to

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Speaker 1: do our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off

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Speaker 1: access to these roads um until this mandate is is removed. Now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the funny thing here is that the mandate

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Speaker 1: that to enter to not being allowed to enter the

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Speaker 1: States to do your trucking roads, that's not a mandate

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Speaker 1: by Canada that's done, but that like that's the rule

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Speaker 1: in the United States because you're entering the United States.

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Speaker 1: They're the States is actually the ones to being the

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Speaker 1: block edge. The government has no control over this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's not actually the thick. The way

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Speaker 1: to get the message out and support is incredibly effective

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Speaker 1: because something I think like percent there was a survey

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Speaker 1: recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like

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Speaker 1: really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to

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Speaker 1: kind of get that like support and like a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting.

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Speaker 1: It starts with four chain of tea, but it's getting

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Speaker 1: revived a lot again now of people posting like empty

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Speaker 1: grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently posted

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Speaker 1: an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails to

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Speaker 1: try to like change the laws, it turned out to

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Speaker 1: be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And there's been like even like the stores themselves have

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Speaker 1: had to come out and make statements being like we're

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Speaker 1: not we're not empty. We have we have like we

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Speaker 1: are in the process if we restocking. That's up in

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Speaker 1: the US to where it's like we're literally emptying that

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Speaker 1: shelf to move stuff from storms. We've had really bad

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Speaker 1: snowstorms for a lot of the real photos of like

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Speaker 1: empty shelves and it's just like, oh no, the salads

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Speaker 1: tap out and the store just make a statement. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had two snowstorms a day in a row on

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Speaker 1: our truck. But like the narrative that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: push is like these these mandates are causing these shortages

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Speaker 1: um and and the propaganda is working even though it's

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Speaker 1: all on a false premise, because first of all, it's

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Speaker 1: not like that that those aren't that that's not causting

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Speaker 1: that the second of all, complainingly to Canada's that's not

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Speaker 1: Canada's not the one who's making the restrictions and the

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Speaker 1: States are the one that's that's blocking from doing this.

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Speaker 1: But but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's

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Speaker 1: that's not the reason why you're getting all these people

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Speaker 1: driving to Ottawa because there is a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: There's not many trucks, but but there is there is

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Speaker 1: a decent amount of people. You know, it's that that

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Speaker 1: are that are going this because it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like

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Speaker 1: seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that

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Speaker 1: has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing

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Speaker 1: the fundraisers what like like like over six million dollars now, um.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's not like it's just what it actually

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Speaker 1: is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go

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Speaker 1: to the capital and cause problems, right. That that's what

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Speaker 1: they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is

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Speaker 1: for a lot of a lot of the like explaining

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Speaker 1: why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands

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Speaker 1: like have been put out and they would be even

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Speaker 1: more confusing like to read than like some of them

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Speaker 1: are there. A couple of the most recent ones are

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Speaker 1: just very general like stop this divisive nature that our

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Speaker 1: government is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sangital

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Speaker 1: groups involved. One they say they won't leave until Trudeau

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Speaker 1: steps down. Others say at one point said until every

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Speaker 1: politician stopped down, stepped down. I think that was when

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Speaker 1: before someone kind of pushed in more realisticals into the movement.

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Speaker 1: But like in terms of like what they're talking about,

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Speaker 1: for like the rhetoric surrounding it. We're seeing a lot

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Speaker 1: of rhetoric around the sentence being like we this can

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Speaker 1: be our version of January six, but like they're saying

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Speaker 1: that like in a good way, like that's that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that at least some of the organizers, And then

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Speaker 1: it's being carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is

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Speaker 1: that this this should be our own version of this,

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Speaker 1: which is which is interesting on a few ways, but

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Speaker 1: like also like this would not have been said like

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Speaker 1: seven months ago, but it's being said now, which means

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Speaker 1: like there's been a shift in how January six is

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Speaker 1: being viewed. There was this initial like really distancing and

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Speaker 1: now it's like it's becoming almost like more acceptable to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that it was maybe a good thing in your eyes.

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Speaker 1: And it's like that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's

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Speaker 1: been going on. But then it's also concerning on just

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Speaker 1: like a regular level to be like, yeah, these people

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Speaker 1: wanted these people are saying they want to do their

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Speaker 1: own January six. That has obviously physical implications for all

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Speaker 1: these people trying to drive to Ottawa do either blocking

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Speaker 1: off roads or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a coast streamer or a streamer in what's called the

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Speaker 1: Plaid Army, and now that's sometimes kind of just being

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Speaker 1: rebranded as like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can

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Speaker 1: get into more, but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're they're kind of their own, they're their own issue

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Speaker 1: for later. Yeah, they're their own issue. But it was

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Speaker 1: one of their streamers who is very tangently connected to

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the the far right people that

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Speaker 1: are involved in this protest movement leaning up to and

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Speaker 1: in fact Pat King, who was officially one of the

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Speaker 1: organizers of the convoy until he wasn't and then he

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Speaker 1: was again. That was a whole dramatic thing for a day,

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Speaker 1: like he streamed alongside Plaid Army guys before. Um so

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Speaker 1: someone on Plaid Army said, and I would quote I

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Speaker 1: would like to see our own January six event, see

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Speaker 1: some of those truckers plow right through that sixteen football

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Speaker 1: and on January that was put up on CTV News

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Speaker 1: made Alive, and it's kind of scared a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: I think. At that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer

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Speaker 1: had already voiced support for the convoy there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of other like members of Parliament stuff voicing support

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Speaker 1: for the convoy. Uh, some of whom really didn't seem

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Speaker 1: to know like what was involved and really just kind

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Speaker 1: of heard Tenant like in passing, Oh it's against these

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Speaker 1: mandates and I opposed these mandates too, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: if I think it's the true DEALU base well, side on,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna help you. You're gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's completely true. So have they actually started like blocking

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Speaker 1: roads or is it just a bunch of random people

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Speaker 1: driving down to like driving So there's there's a few

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Speaker 1: differently converging points of the convoy. I think I would

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Speaker 1: say probably the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of keep track. Uh started in British Columbia

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Speaker 1: and it's going So for this, I'm sure not everyone

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Speaker 1: knows like math for Canada. So like here, just Columbia's

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Speaker 1: like our west coast. That's our our California. UM, and

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Speaker 1: Ottawa is it's close to the west and it's in Ontario,

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Speaker 1: but it's on the border of Quebec and Ontario, and

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Speaker 1: that's where our parliament is. That's our capital city. So

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Speaker 1: it's coming from every which way, but I think the

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Speaker 1: largest contingent comes from British Columbia and it just basically

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Speaker 1: goes eastward to Ottawa, picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's, it's it's heading in that direction. Um,

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Speaker 1: how do we know about I know some people have

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Speaker 1: kind of already some people have kind of already sort

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Speaker 1: of arrived in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected

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Speaker 1: to more arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording

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Speaker 1: this Thursday night, so this episode will probably come out

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Speaker 1: on Monday. Um, people are expected to arrive on Saturday

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Speaker 1: is the day that next. People are expecting like everybody

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Speaker 1: to be there at least have an understanding of it.

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Speaker 1: The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um, there are people like

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Speaker 1: coming from further east who are like staying overnight in

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Speaker 1: town and kind of just showing up the Parliament events.

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Speaker 1: So like, by by all accounts, the Parliament show will

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Speaker 1: probably be a lot bigger than the so far. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet, numbers nor like

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Speaker 1: what what they actually really plan on doing once they

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Speaker 1: get there, because it's been so much talking about like

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Speaker 1: why this got started. And what's the like driving motivational factors? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like their their goal is to get to a place

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Speaker 1: and do a thing, and and that's the Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: thing is that's it's mostly unclear. And I have seen

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Speaker 1: discussions about like blocking on like doing like trying to

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Speaker 1: assemble like a trucking strike. Um, and then like blocking

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Speaker 1: off accesses so that the government is forced to obey

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Speaker 1: their demands or else like the country will shut down. UM.

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Speaker 1: Then some people maybe are just kind of doing it

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Speaker 1: as a one day protest. It's it's it again, it

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Speaker 1: is it is. It is pretty unclear, but people are

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Speaker 1: headed to their UM, what what is the what is

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Speaker 1: the numbers? At least from where we can see like

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Speaker 1: online and stuff. So their numbers have been the number

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Speaker 1: of trucks. Yeah, fifty people became fifty trucks very quickly. UM.

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Speaker 1: And that same number I think Rogan repeated it, I know,

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Speaker 1: said yeah, yeah, Joe Rogan said it. THEO Fleury one

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Speaker 1: on Laura Ingram and repeated the fifty thousand number. He said,

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand truckers, not trucks specifically. UM. As far as

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Speaker 1: I know, THEO Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and

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Speaker 1: it's just a fan and it is just repeating some

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Speaker 1: numbers that like organizes themselves have kind of echoed. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is also complicated for me because this is very

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Speaker 1: troubling in a lot of ways. But also I'm a

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Speaker 1: huge fan of the song Convoy, so this is really devastating.

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Speaker 1: Please continue, It's all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It

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Speaker 1: protest movement has kind of happened doing this in February

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Speaker 1: of Kelly and Farcas, who's like a mainstay of the

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Speaker 1: anti mask, anti VAXX movement. Uh. And in between when

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about and right now actually dated Pat King

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Speaker 1: for a while, who's kind of the most uh outspoken

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Speaker 1: person organizing the current convoy claimed that a hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: people were coming to Parliament for what was then like

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Speaker 1: an anti mask demonstration. Before the event, data will look

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Speaker 1: changed to fifty uh. And I was actually there, it

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Speaker 1: looked closer to like two people. I had friends that

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Speaker 1: had counted like hundreds and seventy people, so not quite

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Speaker 1: fifty uh. For all intents and purposes, the current one

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Speaker 1: will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism along the way

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Speaker 1: have estimated up to like four hundred people so far, um,

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Speaker 1: including I think fifteen trucks outside the bass Pro shop

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Speaker 1: in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted. Side note, if

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Speaker 1: nothing else, got to give them points for stopping at

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Speaker 1: bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty sweet bas Pro.

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Speaker 1: Do you love a good bass Pro shop? My favorite

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Speaker 1: is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah, obvious, Nashville, baby,

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Speaker 1: So the bass Pro in Toronto, if you're ever in town, Robert,

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Speaker 1: it's the only place around that I've been told that

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Speaker 1: sells sub sonic twenty two rounds. So if you're like

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Speaker 1: in the woods, so I feel like in the woods,

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Speaker 1: but like you don't want to like scare your neighbors

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Speaker 1: because the woods aren't bad. Big Yeah. I used to

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Speaker 1: have some friends and I used to go shooting in

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Speaker 1: a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical. Don't don't

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Speaker 1: do that. Definitely it was there was it was legal,

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Speaker 1: Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not. I don't endorse them,

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Speaker 1: might have. Might have to cut this part out for

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Speaker 1: regional sharing. Go leave this all late, just a bunch

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Speaker 1: of words, make it nonsense with bleeping please continue. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so only fifteen trucks were counted by CBC at that point.

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Speaker 1: Um and like videos and stuff have been right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there might be a couple dozen slightly short. But I

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Speaker 1: think by the time Bobby Saturday, I think there's a

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Speaker 1: decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks

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Speaker 1: to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like

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Speaker 1: five hundred, all of the media footage will look like

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Speaker 1: there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to

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Speaker 1: be able to show the extent of them realistically. And

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Speaker 1: then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want

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Speaker 1: to do. Some people just want to do the function

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Speaker 1: up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition

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Speaker 1: of like what the most of the anti like vacs

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Speaker 1: anti mask protests in Canada have been, which have been

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Speaker 1: pretty big, But it's been it's been, it's been mostly

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Speaker 1: standing with signs. UM so it is it is it?

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Speaker 1: It is really unclear because again, most of the truckers

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Speaker 1: in Canada probably are not going to be there nor

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Speaker 1: to necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right

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Speaker 1: because they're pressing the their their whole initial issue is

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Speaker 1: not even based on an actual like thing. So it

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Speaker 1: is I'm not sure how many people are really gonna

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Speaker 1: show up because I don't know even how specific it

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Speaker 1: is to an issue. UM one. One just really interesting, funny,

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Speaker 1: interesting thing that I thought about is like with with

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Speaker 1: some of these people you know talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: going to Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are

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Speaker 1: dropped with the entire government resigns. Like these people who

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Speaker 1: are talking about this like block engine shortage and stuff

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Speaker 1: are also like the same people who get very angry

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Speaker 1: and Indigenous people for blocking off roads and trails um

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Speaker 1: for like oil and pipeline protests. A lot of them, yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending

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Speaker 1: and stuff like pat King. Back in September, Um kind

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Speaker 1: of went on like a kick where he just let

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Speaker 1: a lot of people believe he was Indigenous and claimed

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Speaker 1: someone not correct them that is that is weird, and

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Speaker 1: a family member of him went on Facebook and like

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Speaker 1: bombarded people with information that he was not in fact Indigenous,

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Speaker 1: and it was all very weird and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people held them to comments in the past where he

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Speaker 1: talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is. I think Pat pat King probably deserves his

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Speaker 1: own little deep dive on one of the pods. But

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Speaker 1: but yeah, like it's it is like with all the

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Speaker 1: people talking about blockheads and stuff all you most of

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Speaker 1: them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um

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Speaker 1: it is. It is uh yeah, like you're you're talking

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Speaker 1: about all these things and like there's really big pro

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Speaker 1: oil sentiments and all of the in all of this

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Speaker 1: crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial

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Speaker 1: and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's

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Speaker 1: been more like a symbol to just represent their general

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Speaker 1: kind of upsettedness at the way at the way things

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Speaker 1: are going for them. It's interesting to me. So when

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Speaker 1: I first heard about this, my I was I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers and

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But

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Speaker 1: it's like it's interesting to me, like how few people

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Speaker 1: they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a

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Speaker 1: large number of truckers like that. It's get Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: looks like a lot of like vehicles when you when

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Speaker 1: you see like footage photos and videos like like in

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook

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Speaker 1: groups of just people just like sharing pictures and photos

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Speaker 1: of the rally of the convoy passing through their talent

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Speaker 1: and like it's like what Robert said, like it's here

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Speaker 1: when it fills up both sides of the camera and

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Speaker 1: you have a wide depth of field, it looks huge

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Speaker 1: and it's it's really hard to count. Uh. The money

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Speaker 1: is preposterous. Also, side note on on the money um

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Speaker 1: The funds were frozen a few days ago on the

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Speaker 1: twenty five, but today one million dollars was released back

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Speaker 1: to them because they gave go fund me a pretty

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Speaker 1: clear plan allegedly according to go fund me for for

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Speaker 1: how they're gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's

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Speaker 1: it's I think it's like six point seven million now,

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Speaker 1: so the rest of the five point seven million I

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Speaker 1: think is still frozen. Okay, well it is. It is,

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Speaker 1: so it is so much money. Uh yeah, we should

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Speaker 1: do something like that. They could They could actually buy

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Speaker 1: truck nuts for a dred and fifty thousand truckers, which

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Speaker 1: is the most I've seen them. Guests, truckers are coming.

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Speaker 1: They could buy it all or truck nets off Amazon

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Speaker 1: for all of them and still have the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of their funds left over. Yeah, but see that would

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Speaker 1: be an act of actual heroism, and they're not going

429
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: to do that. The reason why I wanted to talk

430
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right,

431
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying

432
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: to go into an urban area and block off like

433
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: trade routes essentially, um. And then I wanted to talk

434
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like

435
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: the fact that this is happening is divorced from any

436
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance

437
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It

438
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural

439
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen.

440
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be

441
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 1: like coherent um. And then escalation people driving here doing

442
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: this thing. And then I know there was this one interview,

443
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: um I forgot on what news channel, but they interviewed

444
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: this one trucker guy part of a part of this

445
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: con part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

446
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 1: Um and he's he said, um, I advocate civil war.

447
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: If people don't want to step up, we have guns,

448
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out.

449
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: But like, so that's the quotes, like in the fact

450
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in

451
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal

452
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: here is being like people fantasize about Canada's being a

453
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: place to escape, you know, like Canada is like the

454
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: other from the States, and like, no, it's the same,

455
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: Like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism.

456
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 1: There is no really there's no real away right now

457
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: in terms of there's no safe ground. It can spread

458
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: to where you are and for people living in Canada.

459
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 1: When you have people on the news on like Global

460
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: News saying I advocate civil war within the context of

461
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: this of this like, um, you know, convoy movement, it

462
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: is it is an actual thing worth paying attention to.

463
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: It is an actual problem of it's it's huge and

464
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: earlier today and I might pronounce his name on but

465
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: Dale Manuk, doc from CBC Toronto, tweeted a story because

466
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: he on behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of

467
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: the convoy. They have different regional organizers and and their

468
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: website list them all um and it had Patking funny

469
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: side dot it had pack King listed as an organizer

470
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: while they're go fund me had a statement saying they

471
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: had no connection to him, which was very funny. But yeah,

472
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: So CBC Toronto contacted them and the guy responded, enough

473
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: lies you quote slate blooded trader. Evil will get its

474
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah,

475
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: after it, back, yeah, after it, back and forth, very

476
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: brief back and forth. Uh, and just like a couple

477
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: of questions. Uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you

478
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place

479
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: under the guys of public health. You can't be that

480
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy. Yeah. I

481
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti

482
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: vacks movement is tied to far right politics with in

483
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: Canada and it's like been like the driving force of

484
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: far right politics for the past two years and it's

485
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: gotten so much larger. Um. It is like it is,

486
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: it is. It is a thing like when when you

487
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: have when you have people on camera saying we want

488
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about

489
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped,

490
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah,

491
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: like it's it is. It is a thing that could

492
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: happen there, And that's kind of why I wanted to

493
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: talk about it. Is like, yeah, when I have my

494
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: mother calling me dozens of messages from random people like

495
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: worried about this, then yeah, it's it is an issue,

496
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: like I've it's it's it's not it's not not a thing. O.

497
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: The rhetoric is so universal against uh anyone they perceived

498
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: to be leftist too, that it is really dangerous. Like

499
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: there's been a little bit of talk of like counters

500
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are this big, like

501
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: there's no safe weight for people to to stop that

502
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: sort of thing, especially when all all the vehicles are

503
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: on that side. Like it's a it's dangerous. There's a

504
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like I was

505
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: looking today the People's Party of Canada's they got like

506
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: five percent of votes in our last selection. They had

507
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: a little bit of a scandal, uh during our election,

508
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: which is at the end of last year. Um, where

509
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: a writing director for I think it's am. It's the

510
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: great area of London. It is Elgin, Middle six, London,

511
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: so they're they're writing directors and not their member of

512
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 1: parliament writing. Um was revealed to uh post like sculpt

513
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: mask not tea memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader

514
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: of his own party, to Hitlert, so like probably not

515
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: a negative comparison, Um, And he was not fired for it,

516
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: but he was fired after it came out that he

517
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: was being charged for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah.

518
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: He actually, he recently said on a live stream he

519
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: was asked he was currently on trial and he said yeah,

520
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: I mean as far as I know, Like he's been

521
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: posting images of like trucks running people over and that's

522
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: just like one connection to h to the legitimacy of

523
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: it all, Um, Like you, I mean the plat army guys,

524
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: the ones who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet,

525
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: they're also connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on

526
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: their podcast before, who's a sitting politician and a member

527
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: of provincial parliament, which is kind of like our state

528
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: senate equivalent. Over here. Um, they've they've had him on

529
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: and like there there's some like legitimacy to it, um

530
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: getting on and when you just talk about the broad

531
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: movement in general. Former Conservative Party of Canada leader Andrew Shear,

532
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: who had kind of a rocky departure from the party

533
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: because he alleged leaves campaign funds to pay for his

534
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: kids private school. So I not like he had already

535
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: signed on and endorsed and been interviewed. Erin O'Toole, the

536
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: current leader of the of the Conservative Party ah just

537
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: today actually h said he was going to engage with them.

538
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packrins McDonald sent an

539
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker convoy protests

540
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: and quoting Justin Link's twitter here, there have been attempts

541
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: to collect mpeas home addresses. As such, the Sergeant at

542
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: Arms is advising to avoid the rally and go somewhere safe.

543
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole, who said I'm

544
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: gonna do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted later tomorrow,

545
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: I will be meeting with truckers. A tool announces right

546
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the pro us entirely.

547
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will

548
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk

549
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean,

550
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: they showed up, they protest, and they conticipated if we're

551
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: following this up in a few days with another episode,

552
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: that that be something bad happen. But again, even even

553
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: at this point, it is still worth talking about in

554
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: terms of like the generally like this is like this

555
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: is the kind of like the net of why this

556
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: is so important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like,

557
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming

558
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: from an outside and moving into a city, there's very

559
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: little that can be done against them. Um, like, there's

560
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: not there's not really much of an effective counter other

561
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: than trying to get another massive people in cars to

562
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: confront them, and that's, um, you know, a potentially dicey situation.

563
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it

564
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: used all over the United States too, like, and it's

565
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this

566
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: is kind of the earliest step in taking that is

567
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: is this is gonna be the last time people try

568
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: to extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind

569
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: of the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and

570
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: like applicable nous as like an act of like an

571
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: act of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency,

572
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: whatever whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because

573
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of these other interesting thing about the

574
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: States compared to Canada is like the States we have

575
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: like we have like an actual like far right movement,

576
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: like we have like we have like conservatives, when then

577
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: we have like the far right movement in Canada. That

578
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: that distinction is not much of a thing. A lot

579
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: of a lot of there is. There is some far

580
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: right figures trying to push stuff forward, absolutely, but a

581
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: lot of like the space in between conservative far right

582
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: is kind of a little bit more fluid. Like a

583
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: lot of these people who are showing up are not

584
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives,

585
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a

586
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude.

587
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: He's not a member of any kind of political thing.

588
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: He's it's like it's that is just that is just

589
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: kind of what this culture on the western side of

590
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost

591
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: when when you start going into this kind of like

592
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main

593
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that

594
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: is what they are. So anything that gets to that

595
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is

596
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau,

597
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another

598
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: distinction in the state that there's a thing in the

599
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: Canada that I don't really see as much in the States.

600
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: It's very familiar to me when you talk about how

601
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like

602
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: that that is I think a worthwhile comparison. And because

603
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: there were a lot of American conservatives who could get

604
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: in bed with anybody if they were staying against Hillary

605
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: or Bill um cool stuff. Well, this is all fun.

606
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: I hope to not talk with you about this again, Um,

607
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: but there is a chance there is a chance people

608
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: have conversations, um if you wouldn't want to after af

609
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: this episode airs, if people want to see what happened,

610
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: right because this this air is probably Monday, um, and

611
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they

612
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: find work talking about this, whether that be like your

613
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: Twitter feed or um if you know, if any you

614
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: know articles are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM.

615
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: I can't make any promises because safety is always a

616
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: thing and I won't to know what it looks like

617
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My

618
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: Twitter is at spineless L. That's the word spineless and

619
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: then just the letter L. So yeah, you can check

620
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: in on his account to see if he has a

621
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: thread by the time this episodes out. Um, And yeah,

622
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: that's how that's how you can kind of figure out

623
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: what happened if you're just listening to this now and

624
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: then in the time, there'll be a lot of Attawa

625
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: media covering it if you just want to see the fallout.

626
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work might talk about

627
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: it more. They put on an article today on it

628
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: that that covers more of the kind of problems that

629
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: the far right that we talked about today than the

630
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: most other media will go into. They did. Uh, that

631
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: was a very good article. And then also today um

632
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers.

633
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: So just in terms of let's just as as a

634
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: good example, I think this situation is a really great

635
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: way to start thinking about politics and culture UM and

636
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: how they relate to each other, and how this type

637
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: of thing succeeds and how it succeeds UM and why

638
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many

639
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: people in Canada and raising six million dollars almost seven

640
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show

641
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: one more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh,

642
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's

643
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: at fineless out the word spineless is then I don't

644
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter,

645
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: thank you plug your get her account. You're getting wow yeah,

646
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: real real get our user vibes coming off of Dan

647
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: the only social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at

648
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: and said, Robert's just trying to get me to plug

649
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: my sock puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off.

650
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: You could follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard

651
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: dot c a of anyway that is uh that that

652
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: doesn't for our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah,

653
00:35:48,000 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: convoys Canada Can't Can't Escape excellent. If you're having what

654
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: grows in the forest trees? Sure no one else grows

655
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and

656
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from

657
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

658
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

659
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org.

660
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

661
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: the AD Council. Hi, my name is Cassidy Zachary and

662
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: I am April Callahan, and we are fashion historians and

663
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed the

664
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the significance

665
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: of dress from throughout history and around the world. And

666
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: we are so excited to bring you a brand new

667
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and explain the history of

668
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: everything from coursts to blue jeans. Dressed the History of

669
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: Fashion is available on the I Heart Radio, a Apple Podcast,

670
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New

671
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: episodes trap every Tuesday and Thursday after thirty years, It's

672
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 1: time to return to the halls of West Beverly High

673
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: and hang out at the peach pit. On the podcast

674
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: nine O two one o MG joined Jenny Garth and

675
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly

676
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: Hills nine O two one oh. From the very beginning,

677
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: we get to tell the fans all of the behind

678
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what

679
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: happened on camera, obviously, but we can tell them all

680
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the

681
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about

682
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: for decades. As nine O two one oh, super fan

683
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory,

684
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and

685
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have

686
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire ten

687
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely

688
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: nothing of the ten years that we feel that show.

689
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: Listen to nine O two one o MG on the

690
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

691
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: your podcasts. It's the New Year's again. Whoa. Yeah, welcome,

692
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special

693
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here,

694
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 1: a podcast that he is today just about well, it's

695
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt.

696
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it

697
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: do it? Do a special luniar Year's episode and spend

698
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and how

699
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: what sort of being a part of the Chinese diaspora

700
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: in sort of in the US and Canada is like,

701
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: and you know how how that how the influence is,

702
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what

703
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: we're sort of proud of? Um. And with me to

704
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: talk about this, we have j n who I think

705
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it

706
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: works with claus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor.

707
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,479
Speaker 1: Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming.

708
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: And we also have Jane She who is a queer

709
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and

710
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: Bisquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what is

711
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor,

712
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, Welcome,

713
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

714
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: Um just wanted to share that it's Muscuiam squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry.

715
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: I Fortunately I do not live up north and so

716
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 1: my my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than

717
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: they are for the tribal dames that are around me.

718
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: So my apologies. No where is nowhere. So al right,

719
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: before we get into a bunch of extremely grim stuff,

720
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to because this is the this if you

721
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: will be listening to well, okay, unless listening to this

722
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: on Monday night, in which case, uh, congratulations on beating time.

723
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: But most of your probably gonna listen to me listening

724
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: to this on on lunar New Years, and so I

725
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: wanted to before yeah, before everythink it's completely dark. I

726
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: want you to know what you choose favorite Chinese New

727
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: Year's food is because this is like my favorite holiday

728
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: and it's basically my favorite holiday because in Grand Chinese tradition,

729
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: it's just an excuse to eat a lot. So yeah,

730
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: opening the floor up. Yeah, I think you're the expert here, Jane,

731
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: so feel free to I am not laid on the knowledge.

732
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: I am not an expert. Just because I fault dumplings

733
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: does not mean I'm a ne expert. But I I

734
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:06,959
Speaker 1: mean I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really

735
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: that many other people in a very long time, so

736
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: my sense of like breath of food has really really

737
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: narrowed to what is available to me. Um. And I

738
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've

739
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: been making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've

740
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep

741
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: thinking about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the

742
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: sesame anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just

743
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: boiled dumplings I feel like are really great for me

744
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: at this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh. In Cantonese,

745
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: it's called me and go, which is it's a comment

746
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: really yes, um. And the way my mom used to

747
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: make it all the time was like dipping it in

748
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: an egg first, um, And so it has this kind

749
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: of like eggy crust on it, which is really really awesome.

750
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: And I've been making that for the past couple of

751
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: years myself where I am, and I can't wait to

752
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: go to the grocery store and grab some because it's

753
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: only available around this time. I guess they don't really

754
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: produce it any other time. And last time I went

755
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: to visit my mom, she like loaded my suitcase full

756
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: of them and that was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately,

757
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: and some of them went fast. Oh no, we have

758
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's I

759
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: think it's it was in the freezer. It's now, I

760
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: think in the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut

761
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: into it on New Year's Yeah, do you do? You

762
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: guys do the because I know so we we only

763
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: have red bean ones. I know there's like brown sugar one.

764
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: Is there something that are like plane wait? I just

765
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: wanted to check, like is it nanal? Yeah? Or at

766
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: least so like the sort of like flower thing that

767
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: is like shaped like a semicircle. Yeah wait, yeah, I

768
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: feel like there's different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them

769
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: into like like square strips, but I think that's just

770
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, And it

771
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah,

772
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: when it's packaged. That's so interesting because I feel like

773
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: the nanoal that I grew up with doesn't usually have

774
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: a lot of things on it. It's kind of like

775
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: sticky and kind of plane and I'm just this is

776
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: this is a new thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, the

777
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: ones we usually get just has red beans in it,

778
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: and then there's like the one date on the top. Oh,

779
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're thinking of like towning Go,

780
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: which is like a different type of dish um where

781
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: it's like white rice cakes and then you you can

782
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: like it's like saucy and then yeah, like different ingredients

783
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, I think it's a different Ours are

784
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 1: just that they're like they're they're pretty close to the Yeah,

785
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: I think I think I'm just talking about the just

786
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: regularly and golic. They're just like like they're they're they're

787
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: they're basically plain, but there's some red being like cirta

788
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: into the dough and then it's just like the flat

789
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: brown thing that you like fry. Yeah, all right, this

790
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: is we've now done dessert chat. I would honest honestly

791
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: much much less grim time than most of the stuff

792
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: that happens on here. And you've all been now subjected

793
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: to it. I go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great.

794
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: Ah yeah. So on two things that are somewhat more

795
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: grim Um, I think there's there's two big things I

796
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that sort of related to, like

797
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: I guess Chinese diaspora, nous um. I guess we can

798
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: start with talking a bit about anti Asian violence and

799
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: police violence, because I mean it's not like so my

800
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: sort of into this is that my my someone Okay.

801
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: So one of the things that's happened in the past

802
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: about two years was this the huge sort of spike

803
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: and anti Asian violence. But then you know, part of

804
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: what happens politically around that was there was a huge

805
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: attempt to essentially turn anti Asian violence, is you, I

806
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: guess like the anti BLM, like especially in the US,

807
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: But I think I think this happened elsewhere too, where

808
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: there reserves it didn't I don't know, it worked in

809
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: some places and didn't work in other places. So I

810
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: went to the research Chicago and a few is it

811
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: a few months ago, now maybe it's a couple of

812
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: a month that you ago a Asian Chinese international student

813
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: like got shot on campus and this turned into a

814
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: huge sort of like bring more cops on campus that

815
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: there was a huge petition that got signed. It was

816
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: that people were like asking for security cameras and asking

817
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: for our cops, and like the u c p D

818
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks later just like shot a dude.

819
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: And so that there there's been I've been seeing this

820
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: tension a lot. I was worrying a f YouTube had

821
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts,

822
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: We're on it. UM. I mean, I feel like, unfortunately

823
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: with Canada, there's like this dynamic where we look to

824
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: the States for news and validation and this weird way

825
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are

826
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: here that are different. UM. There are there's a different

827
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: kind of police system. There's like the local police like

828
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: Vancouver Police Apartment UM. But then there's also the RCMP,

829
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, which are in other the municipalities.

830
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: And the RCMP was created specifically UM as a tool

831
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is UM,

832
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: I guess the most succinctly way I can put it

833
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: as segregation UM of Indigenous peoples from settlers, and there's

834
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: a lot of displacement of black communities across Canada. But

835
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we

836
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background,

837
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: I guess um and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's

838
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: in what's written territories or just the police killing people.

839
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian

840
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: institutions that are very very much complicit in the system.

841
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization

842
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: in Vancouver who one of the board members is a

843
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: cop who is married to a a city councilor. And

844
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the discourse at institutions not people themselves necessarily,

845
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: but institutions create around for example, the revitalization of Chinatown

846
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: or the preservation of culture is around Oh there's graffiti

847
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood Chinatown and mancouver Is in the downtown

848
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: E Side was just considered, um, the poorest post is

849
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 1: considered the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's

850
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: like a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's,

851
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: Black people people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM,

852
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply, and

853
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing

854
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: guns and everyone displacing the tens cities. And so when

855
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: there is an easy and not an easy but just

856
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: like a demon, I a group of people that UM,

857
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: the general public doesn't know enough about UM. If you

858
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: walk through the downtowning side and talk to people, you

859
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: would talk to people about their experiences with residential school,

860
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty and

861
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: in the in the broadest terms, it's like the way

862
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: that try and Town is being gentrified. People tend to

863
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: blame the poor UM. And there's like this divide and

864
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: conqueror mentality within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically,

865
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: and so similar to what happened with UM Michelle go

866
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: similar to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly

867
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: woman who a group of people who lived in the

868
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: intensity had killed pretending to be cops when they knock

869
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 1: on her door, and the county one of the city

870
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: councilors UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to

871
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: stop indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a

872
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: lot of like marginalized people in these tense cities who

873
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 1: who who can'ts um, who need to live there because

874
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's

875
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: like anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate,

876
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: the so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, um,

877
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just

878
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: that like the way that the media, the way that

879
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon,

880
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: the police the hate crime angle rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah,

881
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like simpler,

882
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: It's simpler and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah,

883
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think that Yeah, I think that tracks.

884
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean the targets are slightly different just based on

885
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: such a snews but on the sort of local context.

886
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with

887
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: what we've been seeing here as I think there's a

888
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: there's another thing that I don't know, So I I

889
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: really don't like the term, like because the did the

890
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: Twitter hashtag stop asition hate, Like I hate that framing

891
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: of it as sort of hatred and not racism. But

892
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, which

893
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: I've been used a lot, I think has problems because

894
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, this is one of the things

895
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: you were talking about, one of the things that I've

896
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, like

897
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right,

898
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: but then there's so just like I mean, one of

899
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: the sort of scare things that happened here was it

900
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of

901
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: restaur like Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and

902
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: everyone was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and

903
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: it's like, well, no, like this is just theft. And

904
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: and there there's there's been this sort of like collapsing

905
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: of something bad happens to an Asian person with specifically

906
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: sort of like targeted racist attacks, and I think that's

907
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: been well, I mean, that's been a problem. And there's

908
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: also the secondary problem of you know who even who

909
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: even gets included in this in the first place. Like

910
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: one of one of the biggest things I've been frustrated

911
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: about is, you know, the sort of the selective inclusion

912
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: of South Asian people like I there there was there

913
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: was a shooting at the fed X facility last year

914
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: by a guy who was like very much, very far right,

915
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: kind of like pilled online guy, and it killed a

916
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: bunch of SEAK workers. And there was never there's just nothing,

917
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: even like no one talked about is anti ation violence.

918
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: But then you know, selectively, you get inclusion to tell

919
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: these Asian people when it's like it's it's it's like

920
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: people get folded into being Asian when it's like useful

921
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: to call from war police. But then when it's you know,

922
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: not useful for that, or when it's you know, especially

923
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: when it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort

924
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: of nothing. And I've been I don't know, I've been

925
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: really frustrated by this dynamic a lot um. Yeah, and Jan,

926
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: I want to know what you think about this too,

927
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: because I have no talks slowing enough about Yeah. I mean,

928
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build

929
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was

930
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: supposedly quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote

931
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: unquote anti Asian hate stuff. And you know, the only

932
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: thing that accomplished. Was it created like some some government

933
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes

934
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: and then more funding for the police, right, So I

935
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: think it was. It was a very kind of direct impact.

936
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly

937
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,439
Speaker 1: what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen,

938
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: which is more funny for the police and not making

939
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: communities safer. Right. So, UM, I think the real conendrum

940
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: for me and the thing that really kind of you know,

941
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and

942
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: I get I get kind of frustrated, is um, you know,

943
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage

944
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's

945
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I

946
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: agree with it, but you know, the response is always

947
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: like the telling folks who have been victimized or those

948
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right,

949
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's true. But then I

950
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: think one struggling with is how to make this message

951
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's a

952
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: way that in some ways that can alienate them even

953
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: more and make them even more reaction right, because that's

954
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh,

955
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,720
Speaker 1: they use further instances of violence to spin that argument

956
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 1: of like when when people say the answer is not

957
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: more cops, it doesn't make a safer the media is

958
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working right,

959
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: it's things are actually getting more dangerous all the kind

960
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff,

961
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: which are usually false anyway. So I think that's what

962
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out now is like, you know,

963
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, where

964
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: I've done some work, there was community meetings with c

965
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: c D, the Chinatown Committee for Equitable Uh what's what's

966
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: destan for? I always forget development. Um. They had some

967
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: meetings with community folks to kind of like, you know,

968
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: hear what hear what they wanted to do to address this,

969
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: and they kind of like a lot of those organizers had, um,

970
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: you know, they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for

971
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: more cops is not the answer, and so some of

972
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: the mail they're from the community, but they're not. They

973
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: weren't part of the kind of like senior population of Chinatown,

974
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's like low incomes seniors is

975
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: kind of like are the folks that are being pushed

976
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well. Um,

977
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 1: some of some men were kind of like, Okay, well

978
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: we should start kind of like armed neighborhood watch um.

979
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: And you know, I think in some way that taps

980
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: into this kind of like we protect us type of ethos, right,

981
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: It's it's not relying on a state or government or

982
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: whatever police paramilitary force. Um. But then I think the

983
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: question that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um,

984
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, are are these people actually from the community,

985
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: and are they actually doing this to address the needs

986
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: of the folks who are most affected by it? Right?

987
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the

988
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. Um.

989
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: And so there's there's just so many different ways to

990
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying

991
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective

992
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's

993
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: a really good point, because I feel like in when

994
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: especially UM Asian women, people who experience like various forms

995
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: of sexual violence or UM street harassment. UM that sense

996
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting

997
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a way,

998
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any

999
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: kind of solution and and also why that kind of

1000
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately,

1001
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: like just because I'm like, who asked for you to

1002
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:42,439
Speaker 1: be street crictials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make

1003
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you

1004
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: have you talked with all of the seniors, all of

1005
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,479
Speaker 1: the elders to ask them, like, how would you feel

1006
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from?

1007
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: And I think that like the other argument is that

1008
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even

1009
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: though UM policing and mental health systems are very, very

1010
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: very connected. UM. Edward Wong has an article about that

1011
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: in Upping the Anti And I don't know, I just

1012
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: think that like there has to be like a way

1013
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma. And

1014
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:39,959
Speaker 1: invalidating um people survival instincts as well, because I feel

1015
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: like UM for years, as someone who's done work in

1016
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: the anti violence sector. It's not that I wanted there

1017
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: to be more policing. It's just that like a lot

1018
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want

1019
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: use the court system because this person is dangerous. Like

1020
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't just

1021
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: go up, no, you're wrong, less cops right, Like that's

1022
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not a

1023
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like all

1024
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: about yourself and you should like to be talking about

1025
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: like black and Indigenous people like like like that's that's

1026
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: also really insensitive. So it's like I feel like there's

1027
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: a way that there there is like a way to

1028
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor

1029
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an

1030
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: easy thing because it's not like our communities have had

1031
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: a good way to respond to trauma, Like we haven't

1032
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah,

1033
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: and I think this this kind of comes back to

1034
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know,

1035
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is

1036
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: about like transitioning things towards community solutions, But like what

1037
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: is that you know, like, what does that even mean

1038
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with you know this, this is this

1039
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: is part of the problem with well, okay, you have

1040
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when

1041
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: inevitably and this is this is just something that happens

1042
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: just you know, this is this is this is the

1043
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to

1044
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: get a beaters in end. It's like, okay, well what

1045
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: happens then? And what happens when you know, like the

1046
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: abuses of people inside the community and and this is

1047
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: compounded I think by this problem of like what like

1048
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,959
Speaker 1: what even you know the I think I think there's

1049
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: there's there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian

1050
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: nous is and there they brought up and this is

1051
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: this is also sort of localized problem of like what

1052
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: even like is the Chinese community at all? Because you're

1053
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak

1054
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: different languages, you're dealing with people who have been in

1055
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: these places for you know, some people have been here

1056
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: for century, some people who have been here like two months.

1057
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: And I think that makes it really difficult in a

1058
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: lot of ways to sort of like even even just

1059
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: bring together something that could be a community. And I know,

1060
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: I know what happens, and I know, you know there's

1061
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities,

1062
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: but but I think it makes this harder because there

1063
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: isn't a sort of like ready made thing you can

1064
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: turn to and go, Okay, well, this is how we're going,

1065
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: like this is the group of people, and this is

1066
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: the sort of like social sphere, and this is the

1067
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: community that going to turn and to to sort of

1068
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: deal with this stuff. There's just this kind of a

1069
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 1: bunch of amorphous different groups. And then also you have

1070
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: the problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk

1071
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: about like political forces nation communities like the Busines associations

1072
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: are extremely powerful, and you know, we have different objectives

1073
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: than they do, but they're also like extremely well organized

1074
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: in a way that most other sort of like Chinese

1075
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: groups aren't. I don't know that that's that's that's been

1076
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: where my thinking has been going on this, Yeah, I think, um,

1077
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: this there's some residents with what you're saying and the

1078
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind

1079
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong despor organizing

1080
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: and which I think, you know, there's a lot of

1081
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: overlap with that same type of like small business organization

1082
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America,

1083
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 1: which is the case in l A and actually c C.

1084
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: He spends a lot of time fighting the small business

1085
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM,

1086
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and

1087
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So

1088
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 1: there is that that element right where a lot of times,

1089
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, you are fighting against people who might have

1090
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 1: to like same heritages for example, UM. And you know,

1091
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: for me personally, that's that's very much the case with

1092
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: Hong Kant ASPERG groups, right because you know, many of

1093
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 1: them are very conservative, are right wing and not only

1094
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot

1095
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: for these kind of you know, these policies and politicians

1096
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: and all these different things that I really can't stand

1097
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: and I'm aligned against UM. And you know, I think

1098
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: it's a lot of folks want to take the kind

1099
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: of pregnantist root of like we'll work with you things

1100
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 1: that we where we have points of unity, otherwise we don't,

1101
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, I guess some people see me as

1102
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: as a little bit more rigid in the sense that

1103
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: like I don't want to work with these folks at all,

1104
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: because UM, I see them as kind of themselves as

1105
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: as a force that is causing more hard than good,

1106
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 1: especially if with these Hong Kong aspert groups. The usual

1107
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we

1108
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: do is is serving Hong Kong UM, and that you

1109
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: in the desper That usually means kind of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress,

1110
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: all those different things, UM. And then kind of like

1111
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues UM.

1112
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: To oversimplify a little bit. So, you know, I think

1113
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: that's been on my mind a lot. I know your

1114
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 1: question was about Chinese noess, but I guess for me

1115
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: that that kind of filters a little bit further down

1116
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right, Yeah,

1117
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote

1118
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora

1119
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. Um.

1120
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: It's like a difficult thing to kind of but but

1121
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 1: your head against because it's like you have your UM diversity, equity,

1122
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: inclusion framework of organizing, and then you have the every

1123
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 1: day like what what what these frameworks can't simplify, which

1124
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: is the tensions between your communities. Like I didn't grow

1125
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 1: up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. UM.

1126
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb. UM

1127
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 1: that saw first um, not first but just like at

1128
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of

1129
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: and then afterwards more like mainlanders, um, and so on

1130
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: the playground, somebody was like, are you from Taiwan mainland

1131
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: or or Hong Kong? And that was when I was

1132
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 1: like seven, And that was my introduction to what it

1133
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 1: means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way.

1134
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: And um being like just right like in that and

1135
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: in that and and figuring yourself out within that and

1136
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: seeing how there was just an absence of community because

1137
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated

1138
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: us um and made more difficult um Like when we

1139
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: filter our parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind

1140
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: of like this awkward thing. But but I think that

1141
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: like UM in in trying to contend with that in

1142
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 1: the in the present, it's sort of like, um, we

1143
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 1: have these older institutions that other people that that the

1144
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 1: older generations have built. What new things can we build?

1145
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: What things can we um? Because I feel like I'm

1146
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: I'm really rigid too. I'm like really not great at

1147
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: across the aisle. And when I do, it's not it's

1148
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: not really about anything substantive. It's like hey, like hi,

1149
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: it's good to see you know, Like when you live

1150
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 1: in a place you you don't want to make like

1151
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: make enemies, but like it's it's a really hard thing, um.

1152
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,719
Speaker 1: And it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly

1153
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: that people are just taking advantage of you, right like,

1154
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it's it's a it's a really

1155
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all

1156
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: hate me, great love it. This has been they could

1157
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: Happen Here. Join us for part two of this discussion. Tomorrow,

1158
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: we're going into more detail on the Save of the Left.

1159
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us That Happened Here

1160
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram, and check out the Cool Zone

1161
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: for other shows that we need on the podcast. Lady

1162
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 1: of the Road join comedian Ardi Marine and Emmy nominated

1163
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,759
Speaker 1: director Julianne Robinson for inspiring conversations with influential women about

1164
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 1: self help and life. We're talking about help, we've been

1165
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 1: talking about money. We've been talking about standing up for yourself,

1166
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 1: like things that we don't I don't talk about that much,

1167
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 1: so this has been really wonderful for me. Each week,

1168
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 1: Arden and Julie speak with motivating, uplifting women who do

1169
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: things their way. Let's just say I don't have any

1170
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: resentment now, but there was one year where I said

1171
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: nine thousand dollars in coins. Want to check for the

1172
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: sense here relay lessons from risk takers like Joan Jett,

1173
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: Nicole Buyer, Lauren Laptus and more. But if I'm Christine Varanski,

1174
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 1: I will ask how much Number one is making. If

1175
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: there's such a huge difference, I will probably pass on it.

1176
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:32,600
Speaker 1: I passed on from saying that. Listen to Lady of

1177
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 1: the Road starting February tenth on the I Heart Radio app,

1178
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What grows

1179
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 1: in the forest trees, Sure no one else grows in

1180
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 1: the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our

1181
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 1: family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this

1182
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The

1183
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near

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01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org.

1185
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

1186
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 1: the AD Council. Hello, and welcome to our show. I'm

1187
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: Zoe de Channel and I'm so excited to be joined

1188
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: by my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar

1189
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl.

1190
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 1: Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast,

1191
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

1192
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 1: New Girl episodes, revealed the truth behind the legendary game

1193
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: True American, and discuss how this show got made with

1194
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: the writer's, guest stars and directors who made the show

1195
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:36,560
Speaker 1: so special. Fans have been begging us to do a

1196
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: New Girl recap for years, and we finally made a

1197
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: podcast where we answer all your burning questions like is

1198
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 1: there really a bear? In every episode of New Girl.

1199
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: Plus each week you'll hear hilarious stories like this at

1200
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: the end when he says you got some schmid on

1201
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: your face. I feel like I pitched that joke. I

1202
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 1: believe that I feel like I did. I'm not on

1203
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: a thousand percent I want to say that was I

1204
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: tossed that one out. Listen to the Welcome to Our

1205
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:04,639
Speaker 1: Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast

1206
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome did it could

1207
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 1: Happen Here? Podcast? It recognizes that Lunar New Year's is not,

1208
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: in fact, just one day, and in that spirit, our

1209
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 1: special New Year's episode is going on for a second day.

1210
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: So there's the rest of our conversation with Jane and Jane.

1211
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 1: You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch

1212
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: on like this is I think kind of defferenting off

1213
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 1: the topic, but I think is also something that I've

1214
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: been running into a lot, which is that like, you know,

1215
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,320
Speaker 1: you have this kind of like you know, you have

1216
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: this kind of bind right because on the one hand,

1217
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot

1218
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has

1219
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:52,240
Speaker 1: all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well,

1220
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,240
Speaker 1: you know the other thing that's happening is is the

1221
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left,

1222
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 1: I think the Canadian left has problem similar problems with

1223
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: this is like it's a bunch of just like it's

1224
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people who

1225
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: love the CCP. It's a bunch of just we are

1226
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: genocide deniers and like people who think that every Asian

1227
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 1: person who like doesn't like the government is a cia

1228
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 1: psi op. And I don't know. This is something that

1229
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a lot

1230
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: trying to, i mean help people doing Kong Kong organizing

1231
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 1: is something I've run into just in like every organized

1232
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces

1233
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 1: to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels

1234
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 1: really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort

1235
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 1: of caught between and I guess it's sort of there

1236
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 1: is three way triangulation, right because on the one hand,

1237
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 1: you have this sort of like you have the local

1238
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of

1239
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:57,560
Speaker 1: the sort of reactionary smum business owners. You have this,

1240
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese me also being sort of split

1241
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 1: in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of

1242
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 1: whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers.

1243
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verspout times

1244
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't want any of them to

1245
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: win and then use them out, and you're caught in

1246
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: the middle of this sort of you're caught in the

1247
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,599
Speaker 1: middle of the sort of I don't know, I think

1248
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like

1249
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts

1250
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: being between both the CCP in the US sort of

1251
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: like using the specter of each other to sort of

1252
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am

1253
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that

1254
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 1: these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the

1255
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and

1256
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 1: like selectively been using anti Asian violence. As you know,

1257
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: they basically making the arguments of the import into anti

1258
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: ation violence is that, well, this only happens because people

1259
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:04,840
Speaker 1: say many things about the CCP, and if no one

1260
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence,

1261
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 1: even though like anti asition violence here predates the existence

1262
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: of a communist party in China by centuries, like we

1263
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 1: we like the we we invaded, We invaded China, like

1264
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:25,559
Speaker 1: how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think

1265
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: at least twice and maybe three times like before there

1266
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 1: was a communist party. And so I don't know. I

1267
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 1: I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics in ways

1268
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: that are very frustrating. And yeah, I just I want

1269
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 1: to open the floor to talk about that. I guess

1270
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 1: I see it as like co optation partly um, but

1271
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:55,559
Speaker 1: I guess I also see it as how power works.

1272
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 1: Like I there's like this local paper and I was

1273
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:08,919
Speaker 1: researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally,

1274
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 1: and there was a spat in the paper between two

1275
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: people who one of whom is from um a newer

1276
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 1: Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um

1277
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:35,240
Speaker 1: in the paper about his history. And there's the history

1278
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: of like those tensions are like written in the community itself,

1279
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:44,639
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's not a new thing that people

1280
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,679
Speaker 1: argue about what happened on June four. It's not new

1281
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:53,680
Speaker 1: that people are really mistrustful each other and that there

1282
01:17:53,760 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: are actual like government forces that infiltrate and and create

1283
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: a like basically deny other people's struggles, like um, when

1284
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: that the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I

1285
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 1: guess it just is really hard when fellow organizers that

1286
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 1: you otherwise really like I want to get along with

1287
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: our our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed

1288
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 1: your family, because you're just kind of like you're kind

1289
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: of like, wait, so are we have we had a

1290
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: conversation about this, Like we clearly haven't talked enough if

1291
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 1: this is what you believe in. And it's just a

1292
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 1: little bit hard because it's like community building is not

1293
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 1: assuming that we're in solidarity. Community building is actually like

1294
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: doing that hard work like what is your community experiencing

1295
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 1: and what is my community experiencing? How are we being

1296
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: like weaponized against each other? Like yeah, how are these

1297
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: governments like manipulating like communities? But that's like really hard

1298
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 1: when trust has been probably broken like me, Yeah, I

1299
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 1: think you're so right that it's it's really about cooptation

1300
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of it, Like what I've witnessed is

1301
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 1: really so much about UM. And this is like like

1302
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,680
Speaker 1: you're saying, Jaane, this is a much older dynamic than

1303
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, just the past couple of years. Is like, uh,

1304
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 1: states being able to use this kind of home and

1305
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 1: desper of framework to um demand loyalty through like targeting

1306
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 1: desperate people's guilt UM. And so there's so many like

1307
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 1: guilty desper people I know who are like you know,

1308
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 1: usually from usually from a class perspective, right because they

1309
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 1: had the their family had the resources to leave or

1310
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:55,640
Speaker 1: uh they were not born in the home country or

1311
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 1: whatever because of their family background, that type of thing,

1312
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 1: and and they want to subsume that by taking this

1313
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: radical you know, anti U s anti Canada stands um,

1314
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: which is fine, Like obviously being anti US and anti

1315
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: Canada is a good thing, but um, the thing that's

1316
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 1: really kind of frustrated me the most is seeing these

1317
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:20,599
Speaker 1: kind of like radical folks in North America, especially queer folks,

1318
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 1: who are like they'll take the most reactionary positions against

1319
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: women and queer and you know LGBT folks in China,

1320
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 1: for example, by supporting a state that is repressing them. Right,

1321
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 1: So it's it's such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I

1322
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: don't understand why these folks can't see, um, that they're

1323
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 1: kind of perpetuating this violence in the service of this

1324
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 1: kind of overarching imperative of not ever seeing anything bad

1325
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: about China because it will help, it'll it'll bolster the

1326
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 1: US propaganda war machine, which is like, there's absolutely a

1327
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,640
Speaker 1: way that I mean that absolutely happens if you do that,

1328
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,679
Speaker 1: uh un carefully, right, if you just kind of repeat

1329
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:09,640
Speaker 1: um US media narratives and stuff like that. But I

1330
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:13,120
Speaker 1: think there's absolutely a way to do both right and UM.

1331
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:15,560
Speaker 1: To me, the way to do that is to not

1332
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 1: um support the state discourses that demand loyalty from the

1333
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: dask brow, but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right,

1334
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like we support career folks around

1335
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 1: the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments

1336
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:31,960
Speaker 1: and that type of thing, UM, and being able to

1337
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: very carefully say that with nuance UM, and to be

1338
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: against both at the same time, for example, UM, well,

1339
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: that's really really difficult right, Um, And people have very

1340
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of vitriolic reactions when you try and do that. Um.

1341
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: As you know, she set up talk Chris. So I

1342
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: don't know this. This is still the contrum for me

1343
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 1: because I tend to take the more rigid stance against

1344
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:58,920
Speaker 1: against these folks. But I know people who are very

1345
01:21:59,040 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is

1346
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:05,800
Speaker 1: like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're

1347
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 1: just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM.

1348
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,600
Speaker 1: And you know, being anti us is better than not

1349
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 1: being anti us. Is It's what a lot of folks say.

1350
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 1: And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But

1351
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM,

1352
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:27,400
Speaker 1: that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and

1353
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 1: discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like

1354
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 1: Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts

1355
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: that you have on people that you work with, that

1356
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 1: you organize with, that that are your friends or loved ones. Um.

1357
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 1: That you know, that kind of explanation of like, oh,

1358
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 1: they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind

1359
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:50,479
Speaker 1: of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening

1360
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: people around you, right, So I think there has to

1361
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 1: be a balance and like being able to steer folks

1362
01:22:56,360 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 1: in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even

1363
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 1: while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to

1364
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 1: be like staring people into a non Salista perspective. I'm

1365
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: just like, I'm not a horny for stalin I like

1366
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:18,360
Speaker 1: the thing that pisces me off about this, it's just

1367
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,600
Speaker 1: like like they're not even Stalinist, Like this is the

1368
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 1: thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they were

1369
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 1: merely twentieth century Stalinist, we wouldn't be having this argument,

1370
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 1: because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well yeah, okay,

1371
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy. And it's like, no,

1372
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 1: they've they've somehow found a way to take literally the

1373
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:40,560
Speaker 1: worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like, okay, but

1374
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: what if what if? What if Stalinism but also capitalism

1375
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:45,599
Speaker 1: good at the same time, And it's just like how

1376
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,640
Speaker 1: how did you do this? Like how how did you

1377
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 1: come up with an ideology that like I don't know,

1378
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Also, I think that's

1379
01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:00,560
Speaker 1: been frustrating to me about this is like it's a

1380
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 1: way of sort of of of it becomes this way

1381
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 1: of channeling you know, you have the diaspert guilt in

1382
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,160
Speaker 1: the one hand, that you have just random sort of

1383
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 1: like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it becomes

1384
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:18,600
Speaker 1: this way of like channeling that into this sort of

1385
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 1: follow anti racism where you know, you get you get

1386
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 1: people who are like actual professional like hacks, right, like

1387
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 1: Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, to

1388
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 1: doing things like wow, if you if you, if you could,

1389
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:33,600
Speaker 1: if you criticize this time you state it all that

1390
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed.

1391
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And

1392
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem

1393
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:53,799
Speaker 1: of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese

1394
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 1: people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass

1395
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:00,560
Speaker 1: that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology. And

1396
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:13,760
Speaker 1: I don't know that's been I think weird to deal

1397
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 1: with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always

1398
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: just in in Chinese communities, like you're always you're just

1399
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 1: you're just gonna have like you know that there's going

1400
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 1: to be a few people who are just sort of

1401
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:26,640
Speaker 1: like pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just

1402
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 1: a sort of defailed political position. But there's there's this

1403
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:39,480
Speaker 1: way in which you get this, you know, people adopting

1404
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 1: I mean just things that like if you said this

1405
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: about any like white American for example, if you if

1406
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 1: you argued that any like a white American making a

1407
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year wasn't in poverty, but like you

1408
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: just couldn't do it, you like, you know, it's it's

1409
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 1: it's literally impossible, like you you'd be laughing out of

1410
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:58,760
Speaker 1: the room or you know, like you're you would you

1411
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 1: would you would be like ratio out until the cows

1412
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:02,679
Speaker 1: come home. But you can just but everyone and people

1413
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 1: just say this constantly, like this is just just a

1414
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 1: thing that was like well, if you look at poverty productions,

1415
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,760
Speaker 1: like well Chinese China is eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, okay,

1416
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 1: they a thousand dollars a year is outside of this now.

1417
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: And I think there's these ways in which it becomes

1418
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 1: hard to intervene in this stuff because like every every

1419
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:28,240
Speaker 1: Asian person especifically, if the Chinese person just becomes a

1420
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 1: sort of token that like you know, you just sort

1421
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 1: of like throw at each other as just like oh,

1422
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:37,240
Speaker 1: well yeah, here's the Chinese person who says that the

1423
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 1: CCP is good. It's like, well, here's another Chinese person

1424
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 1: who says that it's bad. And it's like you never

1425
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 1: It's like on both sides, whether whether the process people

1426
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:49,600
Speaker 1: realize it or not, it's their agencies being sort of

1427
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 1: stripped by them and they've they've been turned into this

1428
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:55,680
Speaker 1: sort of instrumentalized like you know, in the in the

1429
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:57,080
Speaker 1: same thing that they're also doing to us is that

1430
01:26:57,160 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 1: they're turning into sort of these instruments that you can

1431
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:04,839
Speaker 1: use to like back your own sort brought in political agenda.

1432
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 1: And this, I don't know, like this has gotten me

1433
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 1: to just I I just don't work with these people anymore.

1434
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: Like we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed

1435
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: us over and so I don't know, but but but

1436
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a that's a lonely stance in

1437
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Like you know, if if you

1438
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: take this kind of like hardline position, you're not gonna

1439
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 1: most people, even other people who don't support it probably

1440
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,599
Speaker 1: won't follow you there. I don't know, it's weird because

1441
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:39,639
Speaker 1: I find a lot of organizing is really lonely. It's

1442
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:47,799
Speaker 1: like it's not like like I want to boast around

1443
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:52,840
Speaker 1: being like why aren't you all donating? But that's not

1444
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: that's also guilt, right, that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um,

1445
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: and that's not in effect the tool. And I think

1446
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:05,559
Speaker 1: that like like so right and addressing both the white

1447
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 1: guilt but also the diaspora guilt, and also just how

1448
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 1: frustrating it is to organize against the state when it's

1449
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 1: like two people, like three people doing it in a

1450
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 1: little group project for lack of a better word. But

1451
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:25,640
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, how do we make this sustainable

1452
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 1: when it's so lonely? And how do we use the

1453
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:35,880
Speaker 1: resources that are available to us two not replicate these

1454
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:40,560
Speaker 1: systems yet again, And I guess when it comes to

1455
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:48,320
Speaker 1: the left or progressive in Canada, it's like so frustrating

1456
01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 1: because it's like there isn't actually a lot of community

1457
01:28:53,600 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: outreach to like racialized communities. There's no trens Nation. There's

1458
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: a lot of like nonprofit work that is frankly very

1459
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:12,640
Speaker 1: draining and co optive themselves. Um Like, it's it's a

1460
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 1: bunch of social service organizations in a trench code and

1461
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:20,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of political organizations that don't work together or

1462
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 1: talk to each other in a trench code. And um

1463
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: so I understand why youth would join like leftist like

1464
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 1: radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking when it's

1465
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 1: you're they end up reading in reading groups where they're

1466
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:47,520
Speaker 1: reading historical or so called historical texts that erase your histories.

1467
01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:54,280
Speaker 1: Like it's just such a like like reading is great,

1468
01:29:54,520 --> 01:30:00,639
Speaker 1: like political education is incredible. Um but I'm like it's

1469
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 1: hard not to grow resentful. So when the guy at

1470
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:09,120
Speaker 1: the top is the university educated white dude and they're

1471
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 1: reading texts that literally erase your entire family, and it's

1472
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 1: um that like yeah, for me, it's like just really

1473
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 1: personal that way. It's like there are people who are

1474
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:27,559
Speaker 1: suffering in the present and you're reading a text by

1475
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:32,479
Speaker 1: a white sociologist from the eighties, Like like not like

1476
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 1: I'm like it's not that like I I don't think

1477
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: that we should do that political education. It is just

1478
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 1: that like at a reading group, will you listen to

1479
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 1: me when I call you out. Yeah, I definitely, you know,

1480
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 1: both of you saying that this work is really lonely,

1481
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 1: especially if you take if you stand up for yourself,

1482
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 1: for you you really kind of stand by your principles.

1483
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:03,400
Speaker 1: It's like that's so true. And um, you know, not

1484
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,240
Speaker 1: to speak for everyone in laws on, but just my

1485
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:10,240
Speaker 1: experience has been like you know, everyone just everyone hates us,

1486
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 1: like it's you know, we got hate from the right,

1487
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 1: we got hate from the left, um and from Hong

1488
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 1: Kong's asper from Hong Kong locals like it's it's just

1489
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 1: sometimes it's really hard to see, you know, because we're

1490
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 1: we're trying to stay true to our principles, but it's

1491
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: hard to see sometimes whether there's an impact or whether

1492
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:34,759
Speaker 1: we're just kind of like in a little echo chamber

1493
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,360
Speaker 1: with twenty other people, you know what I mean. And um,

1494
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 1: it's hard to find that balance because I don't want

1495
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 1: to become more and more pragmatists where I'm just like,

1496
01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:48,599
Speaker 1: all right, well, you know, I'll work with these people,

1497
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,080
Speaker 1: but I don't agree with them on these fundamental issues

1498
01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 1: just on this one campaign or whatever happens to be.

1499
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that's a part of like

1500
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 1: building power quote unquote like that a lot of uh certain,

1501
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 1: so those groups like to do or they're they're really

1502
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: focused on that kind of thing. But I don't know

1503
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 1: if it's too much of an academic view to to

1504
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 1: be like, if you're going to do it that way,

1505
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:13,639
Speaker 1: you're you're you're changing the outcome already, right, because you're

1506
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 1: not addressing these kind of fundamental issues from the start

1507
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 1: um And I think that view can sometimes lead to

1508
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:23,439
Speaker 1: like a lot of non starters where you're just like

1509
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:26,599
Speaker 1: things don't ever get off the ground because you insist

1510
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 1: on whatever fundamental principle that you that you want to

1511
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 1: stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. So yeah,

1512
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 1: just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with you all

1513
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:42,560
Speaker 1: on the long laitness of that. People think that like

1514
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 1: not working in these sort of united different things is

1515
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:51,160
Speaker 1: this like sort of purityological position. But like you know,

1516
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:55,160
Speaker 1: I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right,

1517
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 1: Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend

1518
01:32:58,240 --> 01:32:59,680
Speaker 1: thing and one of the groups involved with it was

1519
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,040
Speaker 1: the was the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this

1520
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:08,320
Speaker 1: sort of like very much sort of like the basic

1521
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: the tanking cult, like they've There's not a lot of

1522
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 1: other horrible stuff that will talk about at some point,

1523
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:15,280
Speaker 1: but I mean, one of the things that happens, you know,

1524
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:18,679
Speaker 1: Occupy ICE is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they

1525
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 1: destroy the encampment, like they convince enough people to just

1526
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 1: leave and do this completely pointless like march they can

1527
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:28,800
Speaker 1: do a photo op of like people in front of

1528
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 1: the mayor's office, and they do it, and they camp

1529
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:32,640
Speaker 1: collapses because suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they

1530
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 1: don't even get a majority of the people, but it

1531
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:37,240
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, because they pulled enough people out that you

1532
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:39,719
Speaker 1: know that the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore.

1533
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: And I think that in some senses, this is kind

1534
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:44,720
Speaker 1: of microcosm of what they what these people actually do,

1535
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:47,560
Speaker 1: which is that you know, these people will never have

1536
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,680
Speaker 1: any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're

1537
01:33:50,680 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 1: they're never going to create their like salentist state or whatever,

1538
01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:54,680
Speaker 1: like they're never going to get this. They're they're never

1539
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,720
Speaker 1: gonna hold any power. What they can do is there

1540
01:33:57,760 --> 01:33:59,679
Speaker 1: are enough of them they can they can siphon off

1541
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:03,479
Speaker 1: and people from actual leftist movements into this sort of

1542
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 1: just like white ring pro capitalist stuff that they can

1543
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 1: they can cause peoples to collapse, and I mean they've

1544
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:11,799
Speaker 1: done this. They did a lot of this dream the uprising,

1545
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 1: and there is a lot of them, you know, intentionally

1546
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:17,799
Speaker 1: leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of competing

1547
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:19,400
Speaker 1: with the police and stuff like that. And I think

1548
01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:25,040
Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's it's like having seen that

1549
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 1: like multiple times, right I I you know, I you know,

1550
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:32,639
Speaker 1: for me, like not working with him is an incredibly

1551
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:37,439
Speaker 1: pragmatic position because we tried it and they blew it up.

1552
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:40,960
Speaker 1: But it's this problem especially you know, you have people

1553
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:43,760
Speaker 1: who are radicalized in and it's like, well yeah, I mean,

1554
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:45,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, like a lot of them never saw

1555
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:48,000
Speaker 1: this stuff, right, don't know who these people are, and

1556
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 1: their first instroduction to the left is just like incredibly

1557
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 1: well financed like media blitz, and I think that has

1558
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, I think that as consequences both for us

1559
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:04,559
Speaker 1: sort of like people on the left doing like Chinese

1560
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 1: people on the left doing our own de asport organizing,

1561
01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:09,120
Speaker 1: and it has consequences for the broader left, and like

1562
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:11,680
Speaker 1: you you can see other sort of versions of this

1563
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 1: right where you know, you have a sort of right

1564
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:17,599
Speaker 1: wing we've been infiltrating left to spaces and destroying them

1565
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 1: like they're they're like there there was thing dow Cream

1566
01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 1: Resistance basically blew up a like an anti lithium protest

1567
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:26,880
Speaker 1: of the U S by just like going there and

1568
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 1: just hammering transphobia constantly. And so I don't know, I

1569
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:38,320
Speaker 1: think there's there's this sort of dilemma because fundament like

1570
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 1: they will say a lot of the same things we do,

1571
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:45,879
Speaker 1: but we have fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself

1572
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,240
Speaker 1: at you know, on the level of of of organizing

1573
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:54,200
Speaker 1: individual campaigns. But it's something that's really hard to get

1574
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:57,640
Speaker 1: people to see. I think we've lost a lot of

1575
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 1: movements because of it. Yeah, not to be you know,

1576
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 1: not to pile on the cynicism or anything, but I

1577
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 1: think I honestly do think, uh, you know, as all

1578
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:10,680
Speaker 1: those new Cold War stuff ramps up, which is like

1579
01:36:11,320 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: completely independent of what a lot of folks, like grassroots

1580
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 1: folks are even thinking or advocating, it's all just kind

1581
01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 1: of up to the the two uh you know, Chinese

1582
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 1: and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions.

1583
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 1: I think it's really going to start like people are

1584
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:33,720
Speaker 1: going to start these people who are um, you know,

1585
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 1: tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices

1586
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's

1587
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:43,960
Speaker 1: going to be an athema to to not you know,

1588
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: take the anti us position. And that's it, you know

1589
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me.

1590
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 1: I don't I last year, I thought there was still

1591
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,640
Speaker 1: room for intervention. But things are closing so quickly. And

1592
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of

1593
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:06,720
Speaker 1: these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM

1594
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:11,040
Speaker 1: and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you

1595
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 1: know that they have much more funding than a lot

1596
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: of other groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And

1597
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:20,719
Speaker 1: so like you're saying, it's just like these media blitz

1598
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:24,280
Speaker 1: is that these shiny events and all those different things

1599
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: are very appealing to newly radical radicalized folks, right because

1600
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,280
Speaker 1: they think that this this is where the power is

1601
01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 1: and this is where we can actually make a difference. Um,

1602
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, things to me, things look pretty bleak in

1603
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 1: the near future. I mean it just takes one Yeah, yeah,

1604
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,599
Speaker 1: I will see. I think I think they made one

1605
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: major city mistake, which is they tried to do the

1606
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 1: new the push the giant like new cold war war

1607
01:37:49,240 --> 01:37:51,960
Speaker 1: China thing at the exact moment of the US and

1608
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:54,960
Speaker 1: Russia we're like heating up in actually, and this left

1609
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:57,920
Speaker 1: them like kind of off balance because they've been for

1610
01:37:57,960 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 1: the last two years the whole things when the US

1611
01:37:59,880 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 1: is to accelerate tensence with China using any seltentions with China,

1612
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 1: and then it turns out that they're not doing that

1613
01:38:05,040 --> 01:38:08,720
Speaker 1: and in fact, like they're gearing up for just more

1614
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:10,519
Speaker 1: proxy word stuff with Russia, which is the thing they've

1615
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 1: been doing for the past decade. So I think, like,

1616
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:16,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I think they their problem essentially

1617
01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:20,439
Speaker 1: is that they run into reality and there are certain

1618
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: points at which, like you know, you you can lie

1619
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:28,680
Speaker 1: a lot, right, but when when when the line that

1620
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,200
Speaker 1: you're pushing is about what the mainstream media is going

1621
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:34,080
Speaker 1: to say, and the mainstream if you just pivots and

1622
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 1: it's just completely about something that's entirely unrelated, Like I think,

1623
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: I think that hurts, and I think everything that The

1624
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 1: other problem they have that that makes me hopeful is

1625
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:46,519
Speaker 1: that the way there their base is getting split by

1626
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:49,640
Speaker 1: just the anti vax grifters, because so many of their

1627
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:53,280
Speaker 1: media people just you know, are are just are just

1628
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:56,240
Speaker 1: full on grifters, and you know, and you're you're seeing

1629
01:38:56,320 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 1: splits right now and gray Zone about like basically between

1630
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,040
Speaker 1: pro and anti vad X factions. And I think that

1631
01:39:01,280 --> 01:39:07,639
Speaker 1: also will help us in the long run, because you know, say,

1632
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 1: say what you want about most leftists and even most tankies,

1633
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:14,680
Speaker 1: like anti VAX is like a bit far even for them,

1634
01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 1: and because you know, and the other things like the

1635
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 1: the it's it's hard to do anti VAX without beginning

1636
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:28,840
Speaker 1: to take positions that just like it's been baked into

1637
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:31,880
Speaker 1: just sort of anti Chinese racism in so many ways

1638
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 1: that like you can't really like you know, like you

1639
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:39,840
Speaker 1: can't simultaneously be pro incredibly CCP and then also be

1640
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,760
Speaker 1: talking about how the US is trying to implement social credit, right,

1641
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, these these are these these positions are just contradictory,

1642
01:39:46,280 --> 01:39:50,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's something that plays to our advantage

1643
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: and I think is weakening them to some extent because

1644
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 1: they've they tried to have their cake and eat it too,

1645
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: and now they're sort of, I don't know, they're there.

1646
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:07,559
Speaker 1: Their conspiracy theory base is interfering with their like left

1647
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:11,280
Speaker 1: base in ways I think you're helpful for us. It's

1648
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 1: just so interesting how like the anti vax position is

1649
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:24,880
Speaker 1: literally rooted in racism and ableism. Like, um, there's an

1650
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 1: article in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the

1651
01:40:29,120 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 1: anti vax movement that has like really good history around

1652
01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:41,720
Speaker 1: white settlers being afraid of African medicine, um um. And

1653
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 1: then there's also just the able ism of assuming that

1654
01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:51,760
Speaker 1: your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That

1655
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:55,200
Speaker 1: was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic,

1656
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:59,640
Speaker 1: and that was part of how this was effective in

1657
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:06,559
Speaker 1: the first place. And um Yeah, and obviously the anti

1658
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:14,120
Speaker 1: Chinese um like uh, anti Asian like scapegoating as well.

1659
01:41:15,240 --> 01:41:20,040
Speaker 1: But um, I guess that also ties into like just

1660
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:25,400
Speaker 1: how broadly a blest the left is and how like

1661
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:30,800
Speaker 1: disability justice is not something that a lot of people

1662
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 1: know about um or care about. And it's yeah, I

1663
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 1: don't know, it's a huge problem for me as a

1664
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,080
Speaker 1: disabled person. Yeah. I wanted to add really quickly too.

1665
01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I totally agree with you, and you know,

1666
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 1: I think one of the pernicious things that I've noticed though,

1667
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:52,320
Speaker 1: is like these kind of big you know, quote unquote

1668
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:58,440
Speaker 1: anti imperialist accounts like on Instagram for example. Um, they

1669
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:03,280
Speaker 1: take this anti vax position precisely by saying that it's

1670
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:06,400
Speaker 1: anti racist to take that position, which is like, it

1671
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:09,120
Speaker 1: sounds that sounds very kind intuitive, it's not that does

1672
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:14,200
Speaker 1: not reflect reality. But they will point to instances of

1673
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, anti black us um US medicine for example,

1674
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 1: you know, like the Tusky experiments, and then say this

1675
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:26,160
Speaker 1: is why we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on

1676
01:42:26,240 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 1: any of this, right because look what they've done in

1677
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:30,720
Speaker 1: the past, And it's like that logic makes a lot

1678
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 1: of sense in a lot of ways, right, but you know,

1679
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 1: they obviously ignore the impacts that you know, anti vax

1680
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:41,320
Speaker 1: UH and COVID has had on you know, black and

1681
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:46,560
Speaker 1: other POSD populations. Right. So I think I don't know

1682
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:49,080
Speaker 1: if it's exactly like, I don't know if it is

1683
01:42:49,160 --> 01:42:52,800
Speaker 1: appearing as hypocrisy to those people and then their audiences too, right,

1684
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:54,640
Speaker 1: because I think they're able to spin it in this

1685
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:57,040
Speaker 1: in this way. Yeah, but I think I think my

1686
01:42:57,200 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 1: my my argument here is I don't think those are

1687
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 1: the same. I don't like those are the same basis,

1688
01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:06,800
Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't think that the majority of

1689
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:10,479
Speaker 1: the Tanky base are people who are anti factors. And

1690
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 1: you know that you can see a line of this

1691
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: right of of you know, like one of the big

1692
01:43:14,479 --> 01:43:16,560
Speaker 1: things that like they're they're they're obsessed with sort of

1693
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,200
Speaker 1: like with the Cuban healthcare system, right and like Cuba's

1694
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 1: Cuba's vaccines. You see this stuff from them a lot,

1695
01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:23,880
Speaker 1: and you know, and they also talk about like, yeah,

1696
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:26,760
Speaker 1: like China's doing really well accolicating COVID, and I don't

1697
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 1: think those positions are like, I don't think those people

1698
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:34,640
Speaker 1: are the same people who are also turning around and

1699
01:43:34,680 --> 01:43:38,560
Speaker 1: then talking about how like you know, talk doing the

1700
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 1: Caki experiments the vaccines are actually like racism thing. I

1701
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:46,519
Speaker 1: think I think there's some overlap between them, but but

1702
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:50,320
Speaker 1: I don't think that those bases line up enough for

1703
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 1: it to you know, not have the effect of just

1704
01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 1: kind of like tearing them apart. As their media people

1705
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 1: flip been too into one of the sort of camps.

1706
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:05,280
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing, like, you know, if

1707
01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:07,760
Speaker 1: if you look at what's happening with like, uh, like

1708
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: Max Bluemada right now, is that he's just like full

1709
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:14,120
Speaker 1: on like like he's just full on touring with like

1710
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:17,840
Speaker 1: just straight up right wingers to an extent that even

1711
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:21,280
Speaker 1: like even people who being habituated by the sort of

1712
01:44:21,360 --> 01:44:24,280
Speaker 1: like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working with

1713
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:29,840
Speaker 1: right wingers, like you can't look at these people that

1714
01:44:30,240 --> 01:44:33,320
Speaker 1: you know there's just these actually just like Republican operatives

1715
01:44:34,080 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 1: and be like, well, okay, we're we're on the side

1716
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 1: of these people and also like support Cuba. I just

1717
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I have I have some faith

1718
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:46,120
Speaker 1: in these groups being separate and they're being there being

1719
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:49,200
Speaker 1: a point of cognitive dissonance where the system break out.

1720
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 1: I guess I've seen people who have gotten out of

1721
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:59,439
Speaker 1: tanky is M by having to interact with the actual CCP,

1722
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:03,160
Speaker 1: and and that that that that gives me hope that

1723
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:06,040
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's a point of cognitive dissonance at

1724
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:11,000
Speaker 1: which it falls apart. And I don't know, maybe maybe

1725
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm just sort of like hopy m in here, but

1726
01:45:15,439 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 1: I feel like it's so interesting how like there are

1727
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:23,479
Speaker 1: a lot of people for whom politics is a parlor

1728
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 1: game and not their every day like lived experience. Like

1729
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:33,040
Speaker 1: I would not be like like if I see my

1730
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:38,160
Speaker 1: communities struggling. Um, and when people are dying or people

1731
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:43,320
Speaker 1: are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma. I'm not gonna

1732
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:49,639
Speaker 1: sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um, things

1733
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:54,479
Speaker 1: that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like the

1734
01:45:55,040 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 1: angle about classes so important here because it's like a

1735
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:07,679
Speaker 1: lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the broader

1736
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:12,600
Speaker 1: communities around them. Like if you're going around saying untruths

1737
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:15,760
Speaker 1: in the media and your communities are like, hey, that

1738
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:19,320
Speaker 1: that makes no sense. Like, um, if you're actually connected

1739
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:23,479
Speaker 1: to people like like you would hopefully, unless you're just

1740
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:28,080
Speaker 1: a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some accountability

1741
01:46:28,200 --> 01:46:33,360
Speaker 1: for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just I

1742
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:36,920
Speaker 1: just worry because this pandemic has also like really isolated people,

1743
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:41,599
Speaker 1: like they people are not like talking to each other,

1744
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:45,560
Speaker 1: and that makes it more easy for people to to

1745
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:48,080
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like this is

1746
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:51,720
Speaker 1: my perspective, and I just yeah, I think about that

1747
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:56,080
Speaker 1: the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions, like

1748
01:46:56,920 --> 01:46:59,960
Speaker 1: the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to CULTIU

1749
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:06,120
Speaker 1: type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history, because like,

1750
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:11,240
Speaker 1: I feel like the the anti vax uh like not

1751
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:16,320
Speaker 1: taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is a very

1752
01:47:16,520 --> 01:47:25,560
Speaker 1: like manipulative like argument because it ignores the fact that

1753
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:30,000
Speaker 1: these experiments UM on black and Indigenous people in North

1754
01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:35,960
Speaker 1: America and beyond are like about neglect and are about

1755
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:42,360
Speaker 1: um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like it's completely

1756
01:47:42,479 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 1: understandable for for people to not trust the government. But

1757
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:52,519
Speaker 1: but like when the vaccine is actually a tool of

1758
01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:57,640
Speaker 1: protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like campaigns

1759
01:47:58,400 --> 01:48:03,160
Speaker 1: other than people who are uh rooted and disability justice

1760
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:06,960
Speaker 1: saying hey, vaccines are like here to protect us, and

1761
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 1: how can we make how can we make like a like,

1762
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:15,160
Speaker 1: how can we resist the medical industrial complex enough such

1763
01:48:15,280 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 1: that we can make people feel safer taking them at vaccine?

1764
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 1: How can we bring people in as opposed to fearmongering,

1765
01:48:26,120 --> 01:48:28,560
Speaker 1: because I think that fear is so powerful. It's like,

1766
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:32,200
Speaker 1: once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna you're not gonna

1767
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:36,040
Speaker 1: even look into the research, right, So I don't know.

1768
01:48:36,640 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 1: For me, I just think of all of this as

1769
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,360
Speaker 1: like manipulation and human psychology on a on a like

1770
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:48,479
Speaker 1: broad social basis because it's like the stage is a

1771
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 1: big cult and these little groups are little cults. Yeah,

1772
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:56,800
Speaker 1: do do you have any other things you want to

1773
01:48:56,840 --> 01:49:02,920
Speaker 1: say before we head out? Happy new here. Yeah, you're

1774
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:07,919
Speaker 1: the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like actually

1775
01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 1: Fuary not January one. Yeah, yeah we should, I think

1776
01:49:13,320 --> 01:49:17,880
Speaker 1: my okay okayo closing less depressing question. Yeah, what what

1777
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:22,800
Speaker 1: do you think is the etiquette on retweeting? I like, yea,

1778
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,559
Speaker 1: every retweeting like you're the Tiger art before the actual

1779
01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:32,760
Speaker 1: before like Lunar New Year's. I've been torn on it

1780
01:49:32,880 --> 01:49:35,160
Speaker 1: because I just I like the art, but also I'm like,

1781
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 1: it's not the years yet. I haven't seen any I guess,

1782
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:46,920
Speaker 1: so I guess I'm lucky. I have been either guilty

1783
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:51,840
Speaker 1: or just not guilty, depending on how you see it.

1784
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:55,439
Speaker 1: Like I have retweeted all of the Tiger art on

1785
01:49:55,640 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: January first because I did not care. I wanted to

1786
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:02,920
Speaker 1: see the tigers um. But I hope that I see

1787
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 1: more tigers like in the coming days, because if the

1788
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 1: Tigers aren't coming, or if we aren't retweeting it, that

1789
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:13,240
Speaker 1: that is an issue, Like there need to be like

1790
01:50:13,360 --> 01:50:16,360
Speaker 1: a second like a like a like a like like

1791
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 1: a like a second wave of the tiger are no

1792
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: pressure to all of the artists. Well, alright, So if

1793
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:30,320
Speaker 1: if people want to find you or work that you

1794
01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 1: have that you want people to find where, where where

1795
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:35,280
Speaker 1: can they do that? Or if you also do not

1796
01:50:35,360 --> 01:50:37,559
Speaker 1: want them to find you, that is completely also valid.

1797
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 1: The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah, I mostly

1798
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:47,320
Speaker 1: and do not perceive me mode um completely valid. If

1799
01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 1: you want to check out allow song stuff feel Free,

1800
01:50:50,240 --> 01:50:54,200
Speaker 1: a low song collective dot com. It's good work. My

1801
01:50:54,360 --> 01:51:01,519
Speaker 1: social media is um pepakal poetry um on Instagram. I

1802
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:08,880
Speaker 1: uh um. I have this graphic that I've turned into

1803
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:16,400
Speaker 1: a sticker and it's raises funds for families who were

1804
01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:20,400
Speaker 1: affected by the fires and floods. Um. It's a sticker

1805
01:51:20,640 --> 01:51:25,960
Speaker 1: that says immunocompromised people are worth protecting and it went

1806
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:29,840
Speaker 1: viral multiple times. So I guess I cannot help but

1807
01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:36,760
Speaker 1: be perceived objections. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah I'll poetry. Yeah,

1808
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:38,560
Speaker 1: this this is what happens when you create things that

1809
01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 1: are both incredibly politically powerful and also gorgeous. So yeah,

1810
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 1: be be be cursed with the reward for good work.

1811
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:56,559
Speaker 1: Which is also being perceived. Yeah, yeah, well you can.

1812
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,280
Speaker 1: You can find you can find us at happened here

1813
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:02,439
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram, there's the cool zone. You can

1814
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:05,840
Speaker 1: find it. Yeah, go go, go, go retweet Tiger Art

1815
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:10,680
Speaker 1: I go throw a brick at your sheriff non actionable

1816
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:14,840
Speaker 1: and yeah, destroy the American and Chinese States. Happy two years?

1817
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 1: Oh boy, prop. You know what's fun is is live shows,

1818
01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:30,479
Speaker 1: live podcast shows. Live podcasts are incredible. You know what

1819
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 1: isn't incredible is the plague, which is why we've decided

1820
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:35,400
Speaker 1: to find a way to give you all a live

1821
01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:39,080
Speaker 1: show that won't spread the plague, a virtual live show.

1822
01:52:39,960 --> 01:52:42,160
Speaker 1: We had to pivot, and one can say you could

1823
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:45,599
Speaker 1: really watch it from anywhere. You could watch it from anywhere.

1824
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:47,160
Speaker 1: You could watch it. If you're on the I S

1825
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 1: S in space right now, you could watch it, if

1826
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:52,000
Speaker 1: you're if you're in a trench in in eastern Ukraine,

1827
01:52:52,160 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: you could watch it. Uh, if you're driving and and

1828
01:52:55,960 --> 01:52:58,559
Speaker 1: don't care about paying attention to the road, you could

1829
01:52:58,600 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 1: watch it. All of these are options. With a Verse

1830
01:53:00,439 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 1: totally eliminated the problems of living in a three dimensional plane.

1831
01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:10,400
Speaker 1: We have. It's it's groundbreaking. You could call it the metaverse. Anyway,

1832
01:53:10,800 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 1: It's going to be February at six pm PST. Prop

1833
01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 1: is going to be the guest. Sophie's gonna be there too,

1834
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:21,479
Speaker 1: and you can buy tickets at moment house dot com

1835
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 1: slash behind the Bastards, slash behind the Bastards, moment house

1836
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:28,240
Speaker 1: dot com slash behind the Bastards watch it later. You

1837
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:30,200
Speaker 1: don't have to watch it. It's so bad, you guys,

1838
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 1: we gotta do this. What are you talking about? It

1839
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:35,320
Speaker 1: was good. I thought everybody was going to be on

1840
01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:37,360
Speaker 1: board with this ship. We're all just saying the same

1841
01:53:37,439 --> 01:53:40,560
Speaker 1: ship over each other, all at once. That's that's so

1842
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:45,880
Speaker 1: that they notice it. It's called chemistry. This was really bad.

1843
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:49,400
Speaker 1: Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not

1844
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:51,640
Speaker 1: enough people know about, and we're here to change that.

1845
01:53:51,960 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm April Denuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption

1846
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:59,120
Speaker 1: presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling,

1847
01:53:59,240 --> 01:54:02,280
Speaker 1: real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them,

1848
01:54:02,320 --> 01:54:06,120
Speaker 1: with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org,

1849
01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:10,000
Speaker 1: slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt

1850
01:54:10,040 --> 01:54:12,240
Speaker 1: us Kids, brought to you by the U S. Department

1851
01:54:12,280 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 1: of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families,

1852
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 1: and the Act Council. Look to your children's eyes to

1853
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:22,000
Speaker 1: see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook

1854
01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 1: world for them. You look and see a tree. They

1855
01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:28,520
Speaker 1: see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched

1856
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:31,880
Speaker 1: to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see

1857
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,960
Speaker 1: a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they

1858
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:39,640
Speaker 1: see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find

1859
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:42,360
Speaker 1: a forest near you and start exploring it. Discover the

1860
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:44,840
Speaker 1: Forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United States

1861
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:55,360
Speaker 1: Forest Service and the ad Council. It could happen. Here

1862
01:54:56,120 --> 01:54:59,440
Speaker 1: is the podcast that This is about things falling apart

1863
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:02,000
Speaker 1: and how to, how to, how to maybe unfollowed apart.

1864
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. Your your your host, and your other

1865
01:55:06,120 --> 01:55:11,320
Speaker 1: hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our producers Sophie. How's

1866
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:16,080
Speaker 1: everybody doing today? Great? How every How does everybody feel

1867
01:55:16,080 --> 01:55:23,200
Speaker 1: about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were to get us,

1868
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 1: based on your knowledge of history, what generation of war

1869
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 1: we're in right now? What would you what? What would

1870
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:35,920
Speaker 1: y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's it's it's

1871
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:38,760
Speaker 1: newer in relation to like human beings, Like the idea

1872
01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:42,320
Speaker 1: of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles, but

1873
01:55:42,400 --> 01:55:45,280
Speaker 1: like the idea of like war, I feel like isn't

1874
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:49,360
Speaker 1: super old compared to how long there's been humans walking around.

1875
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:53,000
Speaker 1: So I don't know, this is maybe I mean, I

1876
01:55:53,120 --> 01:55:56,640
Speaker 1: know the answer, but like it's it's like like that's

1877
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,120
Speaker 1: that's definitely we definitely passed through like at least a

1878
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 1: couple of stages and at least a couple Chris, like

1879
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 1: gotta be at least twelve Twelvest, you're way ahead of

1880
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:10,320
Speaker 1: William s Lynd, who spoilers is the guy who came

1881
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:12,840
Speaker 1: up with the concept of fourth generation war, which is

1882
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:15,200
Speaker 1: what this episode is about. Right. One of the things

1883
01:56:15,360 --> 01:56:18,520
Speaker 1: when we talk about things falling apart is um the

1884
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:24,400
Speaker 1: unsettling growth of a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine

1885
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:29,120
Speaker 1: being the most like blatant modern example, Syria being the

1886
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 1: deadliest example in our lifetimes. But like these weird hybrid

1887
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:35,760
Speaker 1: conflicts that are a mix of shit happening on the

1888
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 1: Internet and like disinformation going out all over the world.

1889
01:56:38,520 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 1: You could even think to like what was happening in

1890
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:42,800
Speaker 1: Bolivia a year or so back, and like all those

1891
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:45,920
Speaker 1: weird accounts that were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming

1892
01:56:45,960 --> 01:56:48,920
Speaker 1: to support the military coup. And you can look at

1893
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 1: like from the same this disinformation brought out by like

1894
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:54,120
Speaker 1: the Russian state that is usually as part of like

1895
01:56:54,240 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 1: a conflict either you know, they have disinfo operations and

1896
01:56:57,280 --> 01:57:00,800
Speaker 1: Syria disinfo operations around the conflict, and you crane that

1897
01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 1: are kind of designed to muddy the issues and to

1898
01:57:04,880 --> 01:57:08,880
Speaker 1: detract international support and also to like drum up support

1899
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 1: within for like in the in the case of Ukraine,

1900
01:57:11,080 --> 01:57:14,200
Speaker 1: you had like this media blitz against the legitimacy of

1901
01:57:14,240 --> 01:57:17,400
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian state in favor of like a more UH

1902
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: like traditionally Russian um UH style of government in the East,

1903
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 1: and like that led to this breakaway republic that was

1904
01:57:24,120 --> 01:57:26,440
Speaker 1: supported by the Russian government. And like so these are

1905
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:28,880
Speaker 1: like hybrid conflicts is kind of how these are referred to.

1906
01:57:29,520 --> 01:57:33,320
Speaker 1: And there was a guy named William S. Lynd who

1907
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:37,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine wrote a book with a couple

1908
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:40,440
Speaker 1: of US military analysts. Like he was an analyst for

1909
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:42,600
Speaker 1: the military. He was not serving in the military. The

1910
01:57:42,680 --> 01:57:45,560
Speaker 1: other guys he wrote this this thing with we're serving

1911
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:48,920
Speaker 1: at the time, and they wrote this this book kind

1912
01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:50,880
Speaker 1: of trying to be basically what Lynde was doing. He

1913
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:54,840
Speaker 1: was very influenced by our loss in Vietnam when I say,

1914
01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:58,919
Speaker 1: are here, like the loss of the American state in Vietnam,

1915
01:57:59,440 --> 01:58:02,520
Speaker 1: and he was trying to determine, like number one, kind

1916
01:58:02,560 --> 01:58:04,480
Speaker 1: of like find a way to codify and explain the

1917
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:06,920
Speaker 1: changes that were happening to warfare in this period. Was

1918
01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:09,200
Speaker 1: also influenced about what was happening in Afghanistan with the

1919
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:12,320
Speaker 1: Russians were experiencing UM and find a way to like

1920
01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:15,640
Speaker 1: move forward and allow the United States to win wars again, right,

1921
01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:19,280
Speaker 1: Like that was William S. Lynn's goal UM, And so

1922
01:58:19,480 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 1: he came up with this concept of four or he

1923
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 1: and some other guys come up with what they called

1924
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:27,880
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare UM and first generation warfare is like

1925
01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 1: Napoleonic Arab warfare. So, like as Garrison was saying, you

1926
01:58:31,320 --> 01:58:34,160
Speaker 1: may note that he kind of starts his that it's

1927
01:58:34,200 --> 01:58:40,240
Speaker 1: pretty late. That's pretty late we had wars before. Yeah,

1928
01:58:40,280 --> 01:58:42,720
Speaker 1: that's there's a lot of stuff that leads up to like, yeah,

1929
01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:45,280
Speaker 1: if I was gonna try to categorize different types of

1930
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:47,920
Speaker 1: warfare that would not be the one I start with. Well,

1931
01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:50,160
Speaker 1: and like the reality, of course is we'll talk about

1932
01:58:50,200 --> 01:58:52,160
Speaker 1: like when you start looking at different kinds of warfares,

1933
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:54,920
Speaker 1: there's wars that look remarkably like the ship going on

1934
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:57,960
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand

1935
01:58:58,080 --> 01:59:02,240
Speaker 1: years ago, um, like something like like in the same places.

1936
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:04,960
Speaker 1: To like it's just like if you wanted to if

1937
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:06,960
Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about like kind of the modern

1938
01:59:07,320 --> 01:59:09,560
Speaker 1: style of wars that we saw that we've seen really

1939
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 1: in the last like hundred and fifty years, they're not

1940
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:13,720
Speaker 1: all that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like

1941
01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:16,280
Speaker 1: the kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um,

1942
01:59:16,400 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 1: which are these really like big nation states style conflicts

1943
01:59:20,040 --> 01:59:22,600
Speaker 1: and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S.

1944
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:25,240
Speaker 1: Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after

1945
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:28,000
Speaker 1: the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the

1946
01:59:28,080 --> 01:59:30,600
Speaker 1: Thirty Years War um. And it's the kind of warfare

1947
01:59:30,640 --> 01:59:32,960
Speaker 1: where you have these like big tightly ordered groups of

1948
01:59:33,040 --> 01:59:36,360
Speaker 1: men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate

1949
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:39,640
Speaker 1: weapons and mass together. Right. Uh, this is ended by

1950
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,760
Speaker 1: the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic

1951
01:59:42,880 --> 01:59:45,560
Speaker 1: rifle UM or on the bolt reaction rifle, I should say,

1952
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,000
Speaker 1: and that leads us to second generation warfare, which is

1953
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:50,880
Speaker 1: linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires.

1954
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:53,360
Speaker 1: That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not

1955
01:59:53,440 --> 01:59:56,680
Speaker 1: marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um,

1956
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:59,880
Speaker 1: and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one

1957
02:00:00,080 --> 02:00:02,840
Speaker 1: kind of ship right um. Really we start to see

1958
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:04,920
Speaker 1: this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is

1959
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:06,720
Speaker 1: kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and

1960
02:00:07,120 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 1: over the course of World War One we more merge

1961
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:11,920
Speaker 1: and again this is william S Lends way, we emerge

1962
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 1: from second generation to third generation warfare, which is where

1963
02:00:15,360 --> 02:00:19,440
Speaker 1: you've got infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and

1964
02:00:19,520 --> 02:00:21,760
Speaker 1: collapse at which is kind of the Germans and their

1965
02:00:21,800 --> 02:00:25,920
Speaker 1: altrogs tactic and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering

1966
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 1: that you've got the idea of defense in depth um.

1967
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:30,840
Speaker 1: And so this need to bypass the enemy and like

1968
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 1: this leads to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of

1969
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:37,320
Speaker 1: ship um and then that kind of starts to collapse

1970
02:00:37,440 --> 02:00:40,360
Speaker 1: and Len's estimation around Vietnam, and you get what's called

1971
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:44,040
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare. Fourth generation. I'm actually just going to

1972
02:00:44,120 --> 02:00:47,240
Speaker 1: read a quote from a military history wiki that I

1973
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:49,520
Speaker 1: thought had a pretty good description of all of this.

1974
02:00:50,280 --> 02:00:53,520
Speaker 1: Fourth generation warfare is normally characterized by a violent non

1975
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:56,800
Speaker 1: state actor fighting a state. This fighting can be physically done,

1976
02:00:56,800 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 1: such as by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers

1977
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:03,720
Speaker 1: of Tamil alam Um. In this realm, the v n essay,

1978
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:06,160
Speaker 1: these violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth

1979
02:01:06,200 --> 02:01:09,480
Speaker 1: generation warfare. These are the physical actual combat, which is

1980
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:12,600
Speaker 1: considered the least important, mental the will to fight, belief

1981
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:15,560
Speaker 1: in victory, etcetera. And the moral, which is the most important.

1982
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 1: LYND says and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously

1983
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:23,520
Speaker 1: I think that this is kind of nonsense. There's a

1984
02:01:23,560 --> 02:01:25,840
Speaker 1: lot of people, So there's a lot of folks, the

1985
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:27,920
Speaker 1: people who buy into this, and it's very popular on

1986
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:30,000
Speaker 1: the right. Well, we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine.

1987
02:01:30,040 --> 02:01:32,280
Speaker 1: It's a perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you

1988
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: have Russia flooding the zone using spot nick and a

1989
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:38,240
Speaker 1: bunch of other kind of media organizations to drum up

1990
02:01:38,520 --> 02:01:42,400
Speaker 1: um discord and like anger between East and West in Ukraine,

1991
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:45,120
Speaker 1: uh and support for potential Russian action at the same

1992
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:48,000
Speaker 1: time as you have them backing this dictator um and

1993
02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:50,360
Speaker 1: then you have like the West sort of supporting the

1994
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,000
Speaker 1: people protesting against those dictators and like so you've got

1995
02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:58,040
Speaker 1: like this this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually

1996
02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:00,480
Speaker 1: leads to fighting on the ground. One of the areas

1997
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,640
Speaker 1: in which I think Lynda is really off is talking

1998
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:06,440
Speaker 1: about like the physical as the least important, especially if

1999
02:02:06,480 --> 02:02:09,160
Speaker 1: you're going to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare,

2000
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:13,680
Speaker 1: because if the Russian military had not intervened, there would

2001
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:16,480
Speaker 1: not still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would

2002
02:02:16,520 --> 02:02:18,600
Speaker 1: not still hold land, and in fact, the Separatis were

2003
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:20,720
Speaker 1: on the edge of getting completely wiped out by the

2004
02:02:20,840 --> 02:02:23,840
Speaker 1: Ukrainian military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors

2005
02:02:23,880 --> 02:02:26,880
Speaker 1: with minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved

2006
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:29,520
Speaker 1: in brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um

2007
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:32,240
Speaker 1: including like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to

2008
02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:35,840
Speaker 1: shoot down that Malaysian airlines flight. Like that. It's it's

2009
02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:38,600
Speaker 1: just not I I don't think that that what what

2010
02:02:38,800 --> 02:02:43,400
Speaker 1: Linda is saying is very um very well describes what's

2011
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:45,720
Speaker 1: actually going on in the world. But it is important

2012
02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:49,040
Speaker 1: to understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth

2013
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:51,920
Speaker 1: generation warfare, which we'll talk about in a bit um,

2014
02:02:52,240 --> 02:02:55,440
Speaker 1: because it is so useful in the way in which

2015
02:02:55,560 --> 02:02:59,560
Speaker 1: particularly guys like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict because

2016
02:02:59,600 --> 02:03:02,320
Speaker 1: they you will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly,

2017
02:03:02,360 --> 02:03:05,120
Speaker 1: and it's also something that has used a lot within

2018
02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:07,560
Speaker 1: our military establishment. Now a lot of people hate it,

2019
02:03:07,680 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 1: and within you can find a lot of papers buy

2020
02:03:10,240 --> 02:03:13,320
Speaker 1: dudes writing like analysts who are working for the Defense

2021
02:03:13,360 --> 02:03:16,240
Speaker 1: Department for the army actively like shipping on Lynd and

2022
02:03:16,280 --> 02:03:19,200
Speaker 1: talking about how he's at best is kind of like

2023
02:03:19,400 --> 02:03:22,360
Speaker 1: reinvented ideas that existed in warfare for thousands of years,

2024
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 1: and he's kind of summarized things in a way that

2025
02:03:24,280 --> 02:03:28,920
Speaker 1: that is needlessly flattening, and like some people will say,

2026
02:03:29,040 --> 02:03:31,400
Speaker 1: you basically like ripped up like added the Internet to

2027
02:03:31,480 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 1: Klauschwitz uh and pretended that you'd invented a new style

2028
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:37,680
Speaker 1: of conor that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway,

2029
02:03:37,920 --> 02:03:41,920
Speaker 1: that's like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation

2030
02:03:42,000 --> 02:03:44,400
Speaker 1: warfare right. And there's a lot of things that he

2031
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:47,280
Speaker 1: gets again like if you're if you're a history a

2032
02:03:47,360 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 1: military history wong, which Lynde pretends to be a lot

2033
02:03:49,880 --> 02:03:53,200
Speaker 1: of ship that he gets wrong. Um. So one of

2034
02:03:53,280 --> 02:03:55,640
Speaker 1: the things that he says, like one of his famous

2035
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 1: phrases that every military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um,

2036
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 1: the idea that like every military that that is great

2037
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:05,120
Speaker 1: eventually like has a gigantic funk up because they get

2038
02:04:05,160 --> 02:04:07,600
Speaker 1: too used to doing the same thing, which is true um.

2039
02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:10,840
Speaker 1: And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did

2040
02:04:10,880 --> 02:04:13,040
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put

2041
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:15,880
Speaker 1: into service a much more improved model mesh kit mess

2042
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:18,640
Speaker 1: kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did it

2043
02:04:18,640 --> 02:04:20,920
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the

2044
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:23,400
Speaker 1: shelf and old model mess kett the mass draft Army

2045
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:25,680
Speaker 1: of the First Republic and put it back into service.

2046
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:28,360
Speaker 1: The Japanese did it in ninety five, after which they

2047
02:04:28,400 --> 02:04:30,640
Speaker 1: threw their mesket away swearing they would never eat again.

2048
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:32,880
Speaker 1: And we did it in Korea in Vietnam. And now

2049
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:35,160
Speaker 1: when four new wars so far we've only we've had

2050
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:37,920
Speaker 1: the only military that's just kept on eating. And that's

2051
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 1: a really dumb statement. That's all really historically and accurate. So,

2052
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:44,680
Speaker 1: for example, it's true that like the Prussians had a

2053
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:47,600
Speaker 1: great military which then got its butt kicked by Napoleon

2054
02:04:47,720 --> 02:04:49,760
Speaker 1: and they had to completely redesign it, and by the

2055
02:04:49,800 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 1: time eighteen seventy came around, they were extremely dominant on

2056
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:55,720
Speaker 1: the battlefield against the French. Number One, he's crediting the

2057
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,680
Speaker 1: military reforms of like tactics and strategy and ignoring things

2058
02:04:58,760 --> 02:05:01,240
Speaker 1: like Krupp inventing it an entirely new kind of cannon

2059
02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um. He's also

2060
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:07,480
Speaker 1: ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um. He's saying,

2061
02:05:07,560 --> 02:05:09,400
Speaker 1: like the US is the only army that does the

2062
02:05:09,480 --> 02:05:11,360
Speaker 1: same thing over and over again and fails and keeps

2063
02:05:11,400 --> 02:05:13,440
Speaker 1: on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the army the

2064
02:05:13,480 --> 02:05:15,520
Speaker 1: Germans took into battle in World War One and two,

2065
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:21,200
Speaker 1: and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either of those wars. Um.

2066
02:05:22,040 --> 02:05:23,920
Speaker 1: He also talks about how like the French had their

2067
02:05:24,040 --> 02:05:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, crapping in the mess hit moment in eighteen

2068
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 1: seventy after the Franco Prussian War, and they changed their

2069
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:30,880
Speaker 1: army and it was much better. Like, well, they didn't

2070
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:33,320
Speaker 1: win World War One, like they were on the side

2071
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:35,480
Speaker 1: that one, but if it had been them against Germany,

2072
02:05:35,520 --> 02:05:38,640
Speaker 1: they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it was not

2073
02:05:38,840 --> 02:05:40,960
Speaker 1: going well for them for quite a while, and they

2074
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:44,000
Speaker 1: lost a whole generation of young men. So maybe and

2075
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:46,520
Speaker 1: and again this is like what he's saying is basically

2076
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:49,880
Speaker 1: we because we're losing so constantly. The reason that we're

2077
02:05:49,920 --> 02:05:52,600
Speaker 1: losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts. It's

2078
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:55,080
Speaker 1: not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when we

2079
02:05:55,080 --> 02:05:57,360
Speaker 1: shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It's not because

2080
02:05:57,680 --> 02:06:01,960
Speaker 1: we use military force in like a fundamentally venal and

2081
02:06:02,080 --> 02:06:05,560
Speaker 1: corrupt way in order to benefit a small cabal of

2082
02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:10,160
Speaker 1: military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't have good

2083
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:13,720
Speaker 1: battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning in these conflicts,

2084
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:17,680
Speaker 1: which ignores everything about the reality of the conflicts that

2085
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:20,120
Speaker 1: like he's talking about, Like the problem is not a

2086
02:06:20,240 --> 02:06:22,760
Speaker 1: lack of combat dominance, which is is what you were

2087
02:06:22,760 --> 02:06:24,840
Speaker 1: seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon. It's what you

2088
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:28,400
Speaker 1: were seeing with the French fighting the Germans in eighteen seventy, right,

2089
02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:32,280
Speaker 1: Like in those cases, the Prussians had a massive failure

2090
02:06:32,280 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 1: of combat dominance against the French, and the French had

2091
02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:37,400
Speaker 1: a massive failure in combat against the Germans. Their doctrine

2092
02:06:37,440 --> 02:06:41,600
Speaker 1: was just worse. Um, US soldiers are great at getting

2093
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:44,200
Speaker 1: into gunfights and great at winning gun fights. The problem

2094
02:06:44,320 --> 02:06:47,120
Speaker 1: is not a lack of combat ability. The problem is

2095
02:06:47,160 --> 02:06:50,080
Speaker 1: that there's no way to win the conflicts that we're

2096
02:06:50,120 --> 02:06:53,840
Speaker 1: getting into. They are unwinnable wars that were never things

2097
02:06:53,960 --> 02:06:56,560
Speaker 1: that like, there no amount of change in doctrine would

2098
02:06:56,560 --> 02:06:59,680
Speaker 1: have made Afghanistan a success because it was a stupid

2099
02:07:00,000 --> 02:07:03,080
Speaker 1: are Like it's like if if that were true, like

2100
02:07:03,240 --> 02:07:09,520
Speaker 1: coin would have worked. And yeah, no, like absolutely yeah yeah,

2101
02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:14,200
Speaker 1: just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of

2102
02:07:14,280 --> 02:07:18,440
Speaker 1: people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations,

2103
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:22,560
Speaker 1: and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah,

2104
02:07:23,000 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 1: and and and and if you really dig into Lynd

2105
02:07:25,440 --> 02:07:27,520
Speaker 1: and others like him, what they're actually saying when they

2106
02:07:27,560 --> 02:07:29,160
Speaker 1: say that, like we need to reform like the way

2107
02:07:29,160 --> 02:07:31,640
Speaker 1: the military works with new battle doctors. We need to

2108
02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:34,440
Speaker 1: be killing even more people. We just didn't kill enough

2109
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:36,560
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or so

2110
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:39,200
Speaker 1: that wasn't enough people like that. That's the reform that

2111
02:07:39,280 --> 02:07:43,440
Speaker 1: he's really talking about. Um, is Lynd one of those

2112
02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:46,240
Speaker 1: people who like rants about the like the the the

2113
02:07:46,280 --> 02:07:49,800
Speaker 1: al Salvadorian option. UM. I'm sure he does. I don't

2114
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:52,200
Speaker 1: know exactly what he said about al Salvador. He's a

2115
02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:56,960
Speaker 1: fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely a fascist.

2116
02:07:57,040 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 1: He was the director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism

2117
02:07:59,640 --> 02:08:03,240
Speaker 1: at the re Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote a or

2118
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:07,720
Speaker 1: he helped to popularize a declaration of Cultural Independence by

2119
02:08:07,800 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 1: Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's a lot

2120
02:08:12,320 --> 02:08:14,120
Speaker 1: of the seeds of the ship that we're seeing today,

2121
02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:17,280
Speaker 1: right that like American culture institutions are being collapsed because

2122
02:08:17,320 --> 02:08:21,240
Speaker 1: of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives should separate

2123
02:08:21,320 --> 02:08:26,480
Speaker 1: themselves and like set up parallel institutions where Bannon comes in.

2124
02:08:26,600 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 1: And that's where Bannon comes in. That where like fucking

2125
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:32,200
Speaker 1: Andrew Torba and gab come and they all advocate this ship. Yeah,

2126
02:08:32,200 --> 02:08:36,320
Speaker 1: because they're all they all adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah,

2127
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:40,920
Speaker 1: like politics has culture and there's downstream. Yeah, and there's

2128
02:08:40,960 --> 02:08:43,600
Speaker 1: some weird differences with Lynd, Like he's a huge mass

2129
02:08:43,680 --> 02:08:46,400
Speaker 1: transit and urban rail advocate, which I guess I agree

2130
02:08:46,440 --> 02:08:49,760
Speaker 1: with him every once in a while, a bad person

2131
02:08:49,880 --> 02:08:51,880
Speaker 1: does have a good opinion. He loves he loves him

2132
02:08:51,920 --> 02:08:54,760
Speaker 1: some fucking city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also

2133
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:57,600
Speaker 1: he was a major factor. He was one of the earliest,

2134
02:08:57,760 --> 02:09:01,160
Speaker 1: like prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism

2135
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:03,680
Speaker 1: and kind of the modern political period. I mean that

2136
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:05,920
Speaker 1: makes sense because he was really into it. Sounds like

2137
02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:09,720
Speaker 1: he's real into meta politics. So yeah, that's in Metapolis. Yeah, So,

2138
02:09:09,880 --> 02:09:11,360
Speaker 1: like all of this stuff makes a whole lot of

2139
02:09:11,440 --> 02:09:14,240
Speaker 1: sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what,

2140
02:09:14,520 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: if you know what meta politics are. It's also kind

2141
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:20,560
Speaker 1: of explains how he developed the different generations of warfare

2142
02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:22,920
Speaker 1: using it through a framework of metal politics. Actually really

2143
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:27,040
Speaker 1: makes that fit if you believe, like Breitbart famously stated

2144
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:29,600
Speaker 1: that like politics is downstream from culture, and if you

2145
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:31,680
Speaker 1: also believe what Claus I think it was class Wits

2146
02:09:31,720 --> 02:09:34,200
Speaker 1: that said that like war is politics by other means

2147
02:09:34,320 --> 02:09:38,480
Speaker 1: than like you can make cultural can cause wars, and like, yeah,

2148
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:40,520
Speaker 1: like that's a lot like kind of I think the

2149
02:09:40,560 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 1: thought process behind Yeah, because this this really defines what

2150
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:47,400
Speaker 1: he means by fourth generation warfare of war being handed

2151
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:50,880
Speaker 1: out specifically by the culture instead of having it be

2152
02:09:51,000 --> 02:09:53,480
Speaker 1: abstracted to be like people marching towards each other with

2153
02:09:53,560 --> 02:09:56,560
Speaker 1: guns because he's, he's, he's, he's putting the he's putting

2154
02:09:56,600 --> 02:09:58,920
Speaker 1: the culture kind of back into it. Yeah, and he

2155
02:09:59,040 --> 02:10:01,960
Speaker 1: and he's and he's in. And obviously culture was never

2156
02:10:02,200 --> 02:10:04,920
Speaker 1: not a factor, and of course not like every single

2157
02:10:04,960 --> 02:10:06,680
Speaker 1: war has, but a major factor, like all of this

2158
02:10:06,720 --> 02:10:08,520
Speaker 1: ship he talks about is being characters to go. Fourth

2159
02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:11,880
Speaker 1: generation warfare has been happening in one way or another

2160
02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:14,720
Speaker 1: for thousands of years, but it's it's not that these

2161
02:10:14,800 --> 02:10:18,320
Speaker 1: things are done in like temporal succession. It's like because

2162
02:10:18,360 --> 02:10:20,040
Speaker 1: because like a lot of the stuff that makes up

2163
02:10:20,080 --> 02:10:22,800
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare, like the more like guerrilla warfare aspects,

2164
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:26,880
Speaker 1: come way before people with guns marching towards the other

2165
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:31,480
Speaker 1: Africans doing that to Alexander the Goddamn Group for the

2166
02:10:31,560 --> 02:10:33,600
Speaker 1: Birth of Christ, A lot of a lot of this

2167
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:36,960
Speaker 1: fourth gend stuff is actually like kind of more similar

2168
02:10:37,040 --> 02:10:40,520
Speaker 1: to what original warfare probably would have been, Like Yeah,

2169
02:10:41,000 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 1: which I think yeah. I think to to his credit,

2170
02:10:43,360 --> 02:10:45,560
Speaker 1: I think he does actually recognize that at some point

2171
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 1: in his writing now and and and the thing about

2172
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 1: this is, well, we can pick at it, and I

2173
02:10:49,320 --> 02:10:52,120
Speaker 1: think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's

2174
02:10:52,200 --> 02:10:54,480
Speaker 1: it's close enough to the way that reality works that

2175
02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 1: if you're going, if you're thinking about conflict in this framework,

2176
02:10:57,680 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 1: you can be very successful. It's not like an It's

2177
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:03,920
Speaker 1: inaccurate in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing

2178
02:11:04,000 --> 02:11:06,120
Speaker 1: why certain things work. I think is a lot of

2179
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:08,480
Speaker 1: what he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll

2180
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:12,360
Speaker 1: say that, um, if if the American military were to

2181
02:11:12,680 --> 02:11:16,440
Speaker 1: make the fucking lend the Secretary of Defense and give

2182
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:19,400
Speaker 1: him total power, like he would keep on losing wars

2183
02:11:19,440 --> 02:11:21,640
Speaker 1: as hard as we've been losing wars for everyone listening

2184
02:11:21,680 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 1: to this as lifetime. Um. But in a cultural sense,

2185
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:27,600
Speaker 1: the kind of culture jamming, which is a term we'll

2186
02:11:27,600 --> 02:11:29,080
Speaker 1: talk about more in the future. And but the kind

2187
02:11:29,080 --> 02:11:32,080
Speaker 1: of like the propaganda arms and stuff in order to

2188
02:11:32,360 --> 02:11:36,200
Speaker 1: the the the the media warfare in order to either

2189
02:11:36,320 --> 02:11:40,480
Speaker 1: insight or justify real conflict or or and this is

2190
02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:41,840
Speaker 1: one of the areas in which they have been really

2191
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:46,720
Speaker 1: effective to alter the dimension, to alter how internationally a

2192
02:11:46,800 --> 02:11:49,240
Speaker 1: conflict has responded to. So one of the big successes

2193
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:53,040
Speaker 1: of people like this has been effectively eliminating any kind

2194
02:11:53,080 --> 02:11:58,040
Speaker 1: of left wing support for liberatory movements in the Middle East, UM,

2195
02:11:58,240 --> 02:12:01,320
Speaker 1: for liberatory movements or for like just like what's happening

2196
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:05,840
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. It's kind of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh,

2197
02:12:06,160 --> 02:12:09,960
Speaker 1: if there's a movement for liberation among the people of

2198
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:13,040
Speaker 1: a country, it's probably the c I a like like

2199
02:12:13,160 --> 02:12:15,920
Speaker 1: carrying out some sort of op um. That's Lynda and

2200
02:12:16,040 --> 02:12:18,720
Speaker 1: his people UM and people influenced by him have been

2201
02:12:18,760 --> 02:12:21,640
Speaker 1: a big part of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve

2202
02:12:21,720 --> 02:12:25,120
Speaker 1: Bannon is in and is so friendly with like some

2203
02:12:25,280 --> 02:12:28,120
Speaker 1: guys on like chunks that they call themselves the left

2204
02:12:28,200 --> 02:12:32,200
Speaker 1: and whatnot. It's because, um, there's there's a lot of uh,

2205
02:12:32,440 --> 02:12:33,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ties there, and that is an

2206
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:38,320
Speaker 1: area in which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM,

2207
02:12:38,680 --> 02:12:41,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like

2208
02:12:41,240 --> 02:12:44,480
Speaker 1: the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes

2209
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:48,360
Speaker 1: that like these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah,

2210
02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of

2211
02:12:51,160 --> 02:12:53,360
Speaker 1: what I had to say. You guys want to know

2212
02:12:53,480 --> 02:12:57,720
Speaker 1: more about william S Lynd because he's I certainly want

2213
02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:02,160
Speaker 1: to learn more about Williams. William S Lynd cultural conservative,

2214
02:13:02,280 --> 02:13:05,880
Speaker 1: right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You

2215
02:13:06,160 --> 02:13:10,720
Speaker 1: want to guess who he considers his ideal leader? Uh

2216
02:13:11,280 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 1: jfk No, the House of Hogan's all learned. He's a

2217
02:13:14,600 --> 02:13:26,080
Speaker 1: Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, I mean politics. He's certainly

2218
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:29,480
Speaker 1: into hegel and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian

2219
02:13:29,760 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: monarchy was the best government there ever was and was

2220
02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:34,880
Speaker 1: like unfairly crushed by the rest of the world, and

2221
02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:37,040
Speaker 1: like should have won World War One and everything would

2222
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:40,520
Speaker 1: like he's he's and so he's he's very much like

2223
02:13:40,720 --> 02:13:45,240
Speaker 1: a conservative monarchist um and a weird kind because like,

2224
02:13:45,800 --> 02:13:48,280
Speaker 1: my god, dude, if you're looking at like monarchs who

2225
02:13:48,320 --> 02:13:51,680
Speaker 1: were like the Hogans all learn has had like in

2226
02:13:51,760 --> 02:13:56,839
Speaker 1: the modern era, like the first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent,

2227
02:13:57,480 --> 02:14:00,040
Speaker 1: but like it went to ship as soon as a

2228
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:02,280
Speaker 1: help in the second and he blames all of World

2229
02:14:02,360 --> 02:14:07,200
Speaker 1: War One on the fucking tsars like it's it's very silly,

2230
02:14:07,440 --> 02:14:10,560
Speaker 1: like his ideas of history are like very stupid. I

2231
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:14,680
Speaker 1: have an incredibly silly theory of history based on Hagel,

2232
02:14:14,800 --> 02:14:18,320
Speaker 1: which is that, like every everything Hagel. Briefly, for the

2233
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:23,000
Speaker 1: listeners I know, do not, this is this is this

2234
02:14:23,160 --> 02:14:25,040
Speaker 1: is this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this is

2235
02:14:25,160 --> 02:14:27,040
Speaker 1: this is. This is my crank theory of history based

2236
02:14:27,080 --> 02:14:30,040
Speaker 1: on Hagel, which is that every about forty years someone

2237
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:33,640
Speaker 1: attempts to apply Hagel, someone like takes charge of an

2238
02:14:33,680 --> 02:14:36,640
Speaker 1: incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to run it,

2239
02:14:37,080 --> 02:14:40,640
Speaker 1: and every single time they don't understand the dialectic and

2240
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:43,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if

2241
02:14:43,320 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 1: you can take this as a very granul level, right

2242
02:14:46,360 --> 02:14:48,520
Speaker 1: you have Mao Mao has no idea what a dialectic is.

2243
02:14:48,520 --> 02:14:51,200
Speaker 1: You can you can read Mao's work. He has no clue,

2244
02:14:51,760 --> 02:14:53,960
Speaker 1: Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't he doesn't

2245
02:14:54,000 --> 02:14:55,680
Speaker 1: get it. He thinks of a dialectic is when one

2246
02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:57,600
Speaker 1: person with a bat hits the other hits the other side,

2247
02:14:57,640 --> 02:14:59,240
Speaker 1: and then when you destroy the other side, the dialectic

2248
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:01,600
Speaker 1: is resolved. Right that that's not what it is, right

2249
02:15:02,680 --> 02:15:08,160
Speaker 1: Maw like, because of this, the entire Chinese revolution just implodes,

2250
02:15:08,280 --> 02:15:11,400
Speaker 1: everyone dies, it returns to capitalism. Is a complete failure, right,

2251
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:15,280
Speaker 1: you know. And and like a lot of the Nazis

2252
02:15:15,280 --> 02:15:18,400
Speaker 1: are very much into Hagel. They have again incredibly similar failures.

2253
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:21,360
Speaker 1: The other group people like Lynda think is part of

2254
02:15:21,440 --> 02:15:23,680
Speaker 1: this is that all of the people who planned the

2255
02:15:23,760 --> 02:15:27,480
Speaker 1: Iraq War were like enormous Regelian's right, but they've gotten

2256
02:15:27,480 --> 02:15:31,160
Speaker 1: to Hagel through this weird like they they've been doing this,

2257
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:32,680
Speaker 1: they've been doing these kind of insurgency stuff and so

2258
02:15:32,720 --> 02:15:34,360
Speaker 1: but they're kind of insurgeny stuff. Was they read Mao

2259
02:15:35,400 --> 02:15:37,040
Speaker 1: and you know, so that they're so they're they're they're

2260
02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:39,240
Speaker 1: reading Hagel, but then they're also reading Hagel through Mao,

2261
02:15:39,400 --> 02:15:41,440
Speaker 1: and Mao doesn't understand what's going on either, And so

2262
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:44,080
Speaker 1: when they try to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, Okay, well,

2263
02:15:44,160 --> 02:15:45,600
Speaker 1: the end of the end of the end of history,

2264
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:47,680
Speaker 1: the end of the Hegelian dialectic is the United States.

2265
02:15:47,800 --> 02:15:49,520
Speaker 1: We're just going to impose this on a rock and

2266
02:15:50,000 --> 02:15:54,440
Speaker 1: it catastrophic failure. So the war listening is do not

2267
02:15:54,920 --> 02:15:58,880
Speaker 1: attempt to apply Hagel, you will completely annihilate your entire

2268
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 1: political movements, like every every everything, everything you love and

2269
02:16:02,600 --> 02:16:06,040
Speaker 1: dream of everything, like every ideology you've ever had. Uh,

2270
02:16:06,160 --> 02:16:08,720
Speaker 1: it will, it will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you

2271
02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:10,400
Speaker 1: will watch your cities, and you watch your cities and

2272
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:13,080
Speaker 1: Armi's burn. That's that's fine because the last time my

2273
02:16:13,120 --> 02:16:15,680
Speaker 1: resistance movement, we're just going to be postcanty and object

2274
02:16:15,720 --> 02:16:20,960
Speaker 1: oriented on ontologist guys. Throw a bunch of names, and

2275
02:16:21,000 --> 02:16:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get like of people are just why the

2276
02:16:23,880 --> 02:16:26,000
Speaker 1: funk am I hearing about these dead people? The thing

2277
02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:28,080
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to to bring up on this is

2278
02:16:28,200 --> 02:16:32,320
Speaker 1: like how fourth and fifth gen are the idea of

2279
02:16:32,360 --> 02:16:35,400
Speaker 1: the fourth and fifth gen get applied onto like more

2280
02:16:35,480 --> 02:16:39,720
Speaker 1: insurrection based um like revolts or groups. Right, you can

2281
02:16:39,800 --> 02:16:43,640
Speaker 1: see like groups like the Earth Liberation Fund and Animal

2282
02:16:43,720 --> 02:16:46,400
Speaker 1: Liberation Front kind of pick and shoes elements of the

2283
02:16:46,440 --> 02:16:49,120
Speaker 1: fourth and fifth generation were fair to kind of to

2284
02:16:49,920 --> 02:16:53,800
Speaker 1: see how their groups formed or were operated um. And

2285
02:16:53,920 --> 02:16:56,600
Speaker 1: even you could argue that like Ted Kazinski was like

2286
02:16:56,680 --> 02:16:59,600
Speaker 1: a fifth fifth generation warfare because he was completely autonomous

2287
02:16:59,640 --> 02:17:03,200
Speaker 1: and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea of fifth

2288
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:06,119
Speaker 1: generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare, which

2289
02:17:06,200 --> 02:17:09,760
Speaker 1: was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept that

2290
02:17:09,800 --> 02:17:13,600
Speaker 1: has come up I believe Daniel Abbott is his name. UM,

2291
02:17:14,040 --> 02:17:17,000
Speaker 1: And the idea was that like it's a new type

2292
02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:19,320
Speaker 1: of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts in

2293
02:17:19,320 --> 02:17:22,560
Speaker 1: the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic um,

2294
02:17:22,720 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 1: but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering,

2295
02:17:26,760 --> 02:17:29,520
Speaker 1: misinformation sorry, or attacks not just like decentralized, but like

2296
02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:33,600
Speaker 1: states actually using UM organized and often fighting non state

2297
02:17:33,640 --> 02:17:36,640
Speaker 1: actors who are using kind of the thing. Yeah, and

2298
02:17:36,959 --> 02:17:39,840
Speaker 1: this and a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence,

2299
02:17:39,840 --> 02:17:42,840
Speaker 1: fully autonomous systems systems not just botan nets, but like

2300
02:17:42,959 --> 02:17:45,280
Speaker 1: algorithms that can like handle a lot of the quote

2301
02:17:45,360 --> 02:17:49,160
Speaker 1: unquote fighting. UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of

2302
02:17:49,200 --> 02:17:52,160
Speaker 1: fourth generation, fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and

2303
02:17:52,200 --> 02:17:56,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't like anyone using the idea that sound every

2304
02:17:56,600 --> 02:18:00,560
Speaker 1: head of the dialectic. It keeps going. So what I was,

2305
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:04,240
Speaker 1: what I was thinking, is like, is like a lot

2306
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:07,120
Speaker 1: of you can apply fis generation warfare to like these

2307
02:18:07,160 --> 02:18:11,480
Speaker 1: types of groups who are mostly like they do some

2308
02:18:12,080 --> 02:18:15,240
Speaker 1: they do some fourth gent tactics in terms of like terrorism, right,

2309
02:18:15,320 --> 02:18:18,440
Speaker 1: Like they try to make political statements through terrorism and

2310
02:18:18,600 --> 02:18:23,480
Speaker 1: have terrorism an influential thing, but they're demands like you

2311
02:18:23,640 --> 02:18:26,760
Speaker 1: rarely like fifth generation stuff has not been around a

2312
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:29,080
Speaker 1: long enough and no one's really been super successful at

2313
02:18:29,160 --> 02:18:32,360
Speaker 1: it in the past enough time for us like to

2314
02:18:32,480 --> 02:18:35,360
Speaker 1: like recognize that, right, because you can look at a

2315
02:18:35,480 --> 02:18:39,000
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of like an insurrectionary type stuff

2316
02:18:39,080 --> 02:18:41,360
Speaker 1: around like the Again, I'm just gonna use the Earth

2317
02:18:42,000 --> 02:18:44,040
Speaker 1: Liberation Front as an example of like a group that

2318
02:18:44,240 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 1: attempted kind of these types of tactics, um and they

2319
02:18:48,840 --> 02:18:50,800
Speaker 1: may have succeeded in the physical sense, but they did

2320
02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:54,960
Speaker 1: not succeed in like the cultural sense. Really, um, So

2321
02:18:55,560 --> 02:18:58,120
Speaker 1: trying to like look at these types of things and

2322
02:18:58,160 --> 02:19:00,680
Speaker 1: how they relate to like specific that you know, if

2323
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:02,680
Speaker 1: you're gonna use like the take Kazinski example, same thing,

2324
02:19:02,720 --> 02:19:04,880
Speaker 1: except he's not a group. He's just one person, which

2325
02:19:05,000 --> 02:19:06,480
Speaker 1: is kind of more of a fifth gen thinks he's

2326
02:19:06,520 --> 02:19:09,600
Speaker 1: like fully autonomous, whereas I think, um, you know, stuff

2327
02:19:09,680 --> 02:19:11,600
Speaker 1: like the e l F tried to have that kind

2328
02:19:11,640 --> 02:19:14,320
Speaker 1: of militant group dynamic that is more similar to fourth

2329
02:19:14,360 --> 02:19:17,080
Speaker 1: generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing of

2330
02:19:17,200 --> 02:19:19,800
Speaker 1: like trying to trying to do physical action than trying

2331
02:19:19,840 --> 02:19:24,320
Speaker 1: to do cultural action. And it's it's not like the

2332
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:28,480
Speaker 1: things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some the

2333
02:19:29,760 --> 02:19:34,160
Speaker 1: defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just got

2334
02:19:34,280 --> 02:19:37,400
Speaker 1: um this is the specific action they were working on

2335
02:19:37,480 --> 02:19:39,800
Speaker 1: to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The

2336
02:19:39,879 --> 02:19:43,560
Speaker 1: judge of approved their approved their motion because they were

2337
02:19:43,879 --> 02:19:46,680
Speaker 1: they actually were successful because they did not form this

2338
02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:50,160
Speaker 1: militant thing right now, they were just doing the cultural

2339
02:19:50,200 --> 02:19:53,280
Speaker 1: and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to just

2340
02:19:53,480 --> 02:19:55,880
Speaker 1: you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try to

2341
02:19:55,920 --> 02:19:58,760
Speaker 1: get your action forward. So just trying to look at

2342
02:19:58,800 --> 02:20:01,720
Speaker 1: like examples of when when like the goal is kind

2343
02:20:01,760 --> 02:20:05,039
Speaker 1: of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain types don't.

2344
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:10,200
Speaker 1: How that might influence like organizing and how to selectively

2345
02:20:10,320 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 1: use like insurrection, but have it not be like a

2346
02:20:13,400 --> 02:20:17,200
Speaker 1: default mode for like always your group is better if

2347
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:22,480
Speaker 1: it's insurrectorary. M Yeah, And I one of the things

2348
02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:24,800
Speaker 1: that does characterize that I think is useful if we're

2349
02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:28,880
Speaker 1: because again I have my criticisms of the value of

2350
02:20:28,959 --> 02:20:32,440
Speaker 1: any of these like phrases as kind of discrete concepts.

2351
02:20:32,520 --> 02:20:34,120
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think is useful

2352
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:37,000
Speaker 1: about the concept of fifth generation warfare that does talk

2353
02:20:37,000 --> 02:20:39,600
Speaker 1: about something that is legitimately new to conflict that has

2354
02:20:39,680 --> 02:20:43,680
Speaker 1: not really existed before before the Internet is omnipresence UM.

2355
02:20:43,840 --> 02:20:46,960
Speaker 1: That that the conflicts are not limited in geographical space

2356
02:20:47,160 --> 02:20:49,200
Speaker 1: or in time, and in fact is like a constant

2357
02:20:49,280 --> 02:20:52,320
Speaker 1: factor all around you at all times because of the

2358
02:20:52,360 --> 02:20:57,080
Speaker 1: way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM. You know,

2359
02:20:57,160 --> 02:20:59,240
Speaker 1: you can look at kind of like the mix of

2360
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:04,000
Speaker 1: street fight and information warfare, doxing and whatnot between fascists

2361
02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:07,040
Speaker 1: and anti fascists for the last few years. It's omnipresent.

2362
02:21:07,120 --> 02:21:10,160
Speaker 1: It's always going on UM, and the battle space is

2363
02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:13,600
Speaker 1: kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly rarely kinetic

2364
02:21:13,720 --> 02:21:17,240
Speaker 1: or physical UM. And I do think that that's an

2365
02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:20,960
Speaker 1: area in which, um, it is really worth having a

2366
02:21:21,040 --> 02:21:22,760
Speaker 1: new term and kind of defining a new term, because

2367
02:21:22,800 --> 02:21:24,280
Speaker 1: that's one of the few things I think that has

2368
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:27,680
Speaker 1: legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this stuff

2369
02:21:27,720 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 1: that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM. But

2370
02:21:30,440 --> 02:21:33,480
Speaker 1: the thing that it's really created that was not present before?

2371
02:21:33,640 --> 02:21:37,320
Speaker 1: Is this the this omnipresence um. So I do think

2372
02:21:37,360 --> 02:21:39,640
Speaker 1: that that's really useful when we like, I would like

2373
02:21:39,680 --> 02:21:42,000
Speaker 1: to how conflict is different. I would like to kind

2374
02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:45,959
Speaker 1: of like think about like January six, within these frameworks,

2375
02:21:46,080 --> 02:21:50,160
Speaker 1: right of how of how disinformation and information was used

2376
02:21:50,280 --> 02:21:52,720
Speaker 1: relatively successfully to get a lot of people to actually

2377
02:21:53,120 --> 02:21:56,920
Speaker 1: move towards the more um you know, kind of backed

2378
02:21:56,959 --> 02:21:59,920
Speaker 1: by half the state, backed you know, not backed by

2379
02:22:00,080 --> 02:22:03,960
Speaker 1: well the larger majority. And yeah, how like it's a

2380
02:22:04,080 --> 02:22:06,120
Speaker 1: it's like a synthesis of the fourth generation of fifth

2381
02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:07,760
Speaker 1: generous ideas, which is why you know, there's a lot

2382
02:22:07,760 --> 02:22:12,280
Speaker 1: of overlap with these terms specifically um, but seeing how

2383
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:14,480
Speaker 1: like one leads to another and it's not they're not

2384
02:22:14,560 --> 02:22:18,920
Speaker 1: necessarily alusion exclusionary. Yeah, I guess like the result is

2385
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:21,920
Speaker 1: whether they win or lose. Right, that's that's like that

2386
02:22:22,040 --> 02:22:24,480
Speaker 1: that's what makes it a war? Is is the is

2387
02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:28,760
Speaker 1: the is like you decide afterwards based on the result. Yeah,

2388
02:22:28,800 --> 02:22:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean it kind of Yeah, that's certainly like how

2389
02:22:31,320 --> 02:22:34,080
Speaker 1: more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan, it wasn't so

2390
02:22:34,200 --> 02:22:36,400
Speaker 1: much like a clear like World War One. There's an

2391
02:22:36,520 --> 02:22:39,080
Speaker 1: armistice and like negotiated end of the war and at

2392
02:22:39,080 --> 02:22:40,800
Speaker 1: a certain date at all ends. It was a lot

2393
02:22:41,640 --> 02:22:43,840
Speaker 1: we haven't done that since we haven't done that for

2394
02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 1: the state, Like you know, I've never known the States

2395
02:22:45,720 --> 02:22:47,600
Speaker 1: to do that for a month, because if you don't

2396
02:22:47,640 --> 02:22:49,680
Speaker 1: do that, you don't have to admit you lost. Yeah,

2397
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:53,040
Speaker 1: exactly right. If you just kind of like leave and

2398
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:55,920
Speaker 1: ship gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be

2399
02:22:56,080 --> 02:22:58,360
Speaker 1: like for one thing, you can say like if we'd

2400
02:22:58,400 --> 02:23:00,440
Speaker 1: stayed and spend more money on that, or we could

2401
02:23:00,480 --> 02:23:03,120
Speaker 1: have we could have pulled it out, um, which is

2402
02:23:03,160 --> 02:23:04,920
Speaker 1: one of my Like there's a lot of great criticisms

2403
02:23:04,959 --> 02:23:08,480
Speaker 1: of how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year,

2404
02:23:08,480 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 1: a thousand of them. But at the end of the day,

2405
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:13,360
Speaker 1: it's like it was never going to be good, Like

2406
02:23:13,560 --> 02:23:15,879
Speaker 1: it was always it was this horrible war. We were

2407
02:23:16,000 --> 02:23:19,400
Speaker 1: killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything.

2408
02:23:19,480 --> 02:23:21,680
Speaker 1: And that fact was made really clear by the fact

2409
02:23:21,720 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 1: that as soon as we pulled out our guns, Um,

2410
02:23:25,160 --> 02:23:28,520
Speaker 1: everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And

2411
02:23:28,600 --> 02:23:30,680
Speaker 1: you can needle around the edges of how we could

2412
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:33,360
Speaker 1: have you know, better taken care of people who we

2413
02:23:33,400 --> 02:23:35,240
Speaker 1: had made promises to or whatever. At the end of

2414
02:23:35,240 --> 02:23:37,000
Speaker 1: the day, it was always going to be fucked because

2415
02:23:37,360 --> 02:23:39,240
Speaker 1: it was a thing we never should have done. And

2416
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:41,560
Speaker 1: that's that. Like this idea that Lynde has it like, no,

2417
02:23:41,640 --> 02:23:44,440
Speaker 1: if we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine,

2418
02:23:44,480 --> 02:23:46,800
Speaker 1: we have better like we have that. One of his

2419
02:23:46,879 --> 02:23:49,880
Speaker 1: big ideas is UM. He came up with this concept

2420
02:23:49,959 --> 02:23:52,640
Speaker 1: called movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way

2421
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:55,680
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps functions UM. And the idea behind movement

2422
02:23:55,720 --> 02:23:58,560
Speaker 1: warfare is like you should always have a bias towards action,

2423
02:23:59,120 --> 02:24:02,640
Speaker 1: and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this

2424
02:24:02,760 --> 02:24:06,360
Speaker 1: basically the evolution of a German tactic called ALP Drugs

2425
02:24:06,360 --> 02:24:09,760
Speaker 1: tact Tea, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So

2426
02:24:09,959 --> 02:24:12,240
Speaker 1: it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start

2427
02:24:12,320 --> 02:24:14,880
Speaker 1: to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't

2428
02:24:14,879 --> 02:24:18,640
Speaker 1: working great UM, and we should probably like figure out

2429
02:24:18,720 --> 02:24:21,480
Speaker 1: a way to get around these defenses. So they start

2430
02:24:21,520 --> 02:24:24,240
Speaker 1: training what are kind of the prototype of special forces,

2431
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:27,080
Speaker 1: These like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in

2432
02:24:27,200 --> 02:24:29,240
Speaker 1: and not be seen and jump into the trenches and

2433
02:24:29,360 --> 02:24:33,640
Speaker 1: like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns

2434
02:24:33,720 --> 02:24:36,320
Speaker 1: and um, fight in a way that like soldiers had

2435
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:38,160
Speaker 1: not really fought in a long time. A lot of

2436
02:24:38,240 --> 02:24:40,440
Speaker 1: it was like melee was this really and there were

2437
02:24:40,480 --> 02:24:42,360
Speaker 1: a lot of technical things had to get around. Barbed

2438
02:24:42,400 --> 02:24:44,080
Speaker 1: wire had to not be seen, how to like deal

2439
02:24:44,160 --> 02:24:47,640
Speaker 1: with machine gun nests, um. And one of the keys

2440
02:24:47,680 --> 02:24:50,520
Speaker 1: to it was like the German started to retrain their

2441
02:24:50,560 --> 02:24:52,480
Speaker 1: soldiers to were like you have to have like these

2442
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:54,520
Speaker 1: individual units of five and ten men have to have

2443
02:24:54,640 --> 02:24:57,520
Speaker 1: like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to have

2444
02:24:57,600 --> 02:24:59,680
Speaker 1: autonomy and they need to be will able to like

2445
02:25:00,080 --> 02:25:01,520
Speaker 1: will tell them we need you to be in this

2446
02:25:01,879 --> 02:25:03,879
Speaker 1: this place at this point in time. But it's up

2447
02:25:03,920 --> 02:25:05,440
Speaker 1: to you to figure out how to do that because

2448
02:25:05,480 --> 02:25:08,240
Speaker 1: if you're if you've got this one guy who's three

2449
02:25:08,320 --> 02:25:10,520
Speaker 1: miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get mowed

2450
02:25:10,520 --> 02:25:12,840
Speaker 1: down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more nimble, um.

2451
02:25:13,080 --> 02:25:14,800
Speaker 1: And that's part of why in World War One, in

2452
02:25:14,879 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 1: in World War two, because the rest of the people

2453
02:25:17,680 --> 02:25:20,160
Speaker 1: fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not caught

2454
02:25:20,280 --> 02:25:22,119
Speaker 1: up to this kind of battle doctrine by the time

2455
02:25:22,160 --> 02:25:24,320
Speaker 1: World War Two was over, UM to the extent that

2456
02:25:24,360 --> 02:25:26,080
Speaker 1: the Germans had, And it's part of why there's such

2457
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:28,920
Speaker 1: a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans in

2458
02:25:29,000 --> 02:25:32,000
Speaker 1: that war is they had what is very close to

2459
02:25:32,040 --> 02:25:35,000
Speaker 1: because all modern combat tactics are based on what the

2460
02:25:35,040 --> 02:25:37,039
Speaker 1: Germans started doing at the end of World War one

2461
02:25:37,480 --> 02:25:39,840
Speaker 1: UM and had really like nailed down to a science

2462
02:25:39,879 --> 02:25:42,680
Speaker 1: in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that,

2463
02:25:42,800 --> 02:25:45,200
Speaker 1: like we need to extend that and like that's the

2464
02:25:45,280 --> 02:25:47,039
Speaker 1: thing we've gotten too far away from and we need

2465
02:25:47,120 --> 02:25:49,200
Speaker 1: to have. You need to have like this bias towards

2466
02:25:49,280 --> 02:25:52,600
Speaker 1: movement and this the like officers need to be super

2467
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:56,440
Speaker 1: aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options.

2468
02:25:56,720 --> 02:25:59,800
Speaker 1: And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show,

2469
02:26:00,200 --> 02:26:04,400
Speaker 1: this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights.

2470
02:26:04,920 --> 02:26:07,160
Speaker 1: But when was the last time the Marine Corps was

2471
02:26:07,240 --> 02:26:09,320
Speaker 1: on the side of a winning war. Like again, it

2472
02:26:09,440 --> 02:26:11,640
Speaker 1: doesn't we can all needle about how to make our

2473
02:26:11,680 --> 02:26:13,960
Speaker 1: troops better at like killing people, but at the end

2474
02:26:13,959 --> 02:26:16,879
Speaker 1: of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into

2475
02:26:16,959 --> 02:26:19,720
Speaker 1: wars that are not winnable, and that's not something you're

2476
02:26:19,720 --> 02:26:22,880
Speaker 1: going to fix with battle doctrine and doesn't understand that

2477
02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:26,200
Speaker 1: because he's a fascist. And I think it's just like this,

2478
02:26:26,480 --> 02:26:29,600
Speaker 1: this is the real like weakness of their politics, which

2479
02:26:29,640 --> 02:26:31,840
Speaker 1: is that was like yeah, well, like it's it's they're

2480
02:26:31,840 --> 02:26:34,840
Speaker 1: they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell the difference

2481
02:26:34,879 --> 02:26:37,240
Speaker 1: between war and like they don't think there's a difference

2482
02:26:37,240 --> 02:26:40,200
Speaker 1: between war and politics, right, and that means that they

2483
02:26:40,240 --> 02:26:42,199
Speaker 1: think that there's a military solution to every political problem

2484
02:26:42,200 --> 02:26:43,920
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, there's not, and like this is

2485
02:26:44,040 --> 02:26:46,040
Speaker 1: this is how this is why is how they keep

2486
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:49,360
Speaker 1: destroying themselves, right, is that they you know, like like

2487
02:26:49,800 --> 02:26:51,160
Speaker 1: this is what happened to the neo cons. I mean

2488
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:52,480
Speaker 1: the neo cons are sort of held on in this

2489
02:26:52,600 --> 02:26:55,360
Speaker 1: kind of rump shell, but it's like neo conservatism and

2490
02:26:55,480 --> 02:26:58,400
Speaker 1: how they're just project Yeah. But but it's like you know,

2491
02:26:58,520 --> 02:27:00,920
Speaker 1: like they don't they don't have like even the people

2492
02:27:00,959 --> 02:27:03,480
Speaker 1: who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore?

2493
02:27:03,879 --> 02:27:07,240
Speaker 1: Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah,

2494
02:27:07,240 --> 02:27:09,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained

2495
02:27:09,520 --> 02:27:13,000
Speaker 1: it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart,

2496
02:27:13,240 --> 02:27:15,800
Speaker 1: like trying to conquer a rock, and it's like they

2497
02:27:16,320 --> 02:27:18,640
Speaker 1: all do this. They all eventually are like, well, okay,

2498
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:20,160
Speaker 1: well we'll find a military solution to this, and it

2499
02:27:20,160 --> 02:27:22,120
Speaker 1: blows up in their face because it turns out that, no,

2500
02:27:22,360 --> 02:27:24,440
Speaker 1: you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all

2501
02:27:24,480 --> 02:27:29,840
Speaker 1: the syndicates a general progression into the more metapolitics idea

2502
02:27:29,879 --> 02:27:33,320
Speaker 1: and cultures politics ideas that we're trying to solve all

2503
02:27:33,360 --> 02:27:37,200
Speaker 1: these political problems, like at least like locally within us,

2504
02:27:37,240 --> 02:27:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be trying to do them

2505
02:27:38,680 --> 02:27:41,760
Speaker 1: culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries, right

2506
02:27:41,840 --> 02:27:45,280
Speaker 1: because the more kind of the the idea of like

2507
02:27:45,360 --> 02:27:47,959
Speaker 1: let's just keep entering wars, which we're also doing at

2508
02:27:47,959 --> 02:27:51,279
Speaker 1: the same time, only very very like like very specific regions.

2509
02:27:51,800 --> 02:27:54,080
Speaker 1: But I mean the trend of like first, you know,

2510
02:27:54,320 --> 02:27:56,400
Speaker 1: like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's not really can

2511
02:27:56,440 --> 02:28:00,200
Speaker 1: Aniogon He preferred the cultural jamming like that was was

2512
02:28:00,320 --> 02:28:03,080
Speaker 1: his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in

2513
02:28:03,200 --> 02:28:06,040
Speaker 1: four years. And there there's an argument that lynd is

2514
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:09,520
Speaker 1: a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda,

2515
02:28:09,600 --> 02:28:11,320
Speaker 1: even though I don't think he ever read his books.

2516
02:28:11,360 --> 02:28:13,720
Speaker 1: All the people he surrounded him with, where fans of Lend.

2517
02:28:13,760 --> 02:28:15,880
Speaker 1: There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like

2518
02:28:16,000 --> 02:28:18,160
Speaker 1: a copy of or at least Trump together with a

2519
02:28:18,280 --> 02:28:22,400
Speaker 1: copy of his book, um, which is titled, uh the

2520
02:28:22,520 --> 02:28:25,760
Speaker 1: Next Conservatism UM. And I'm gonna read a quote at

2521
02:28:25,800 --> 02:28:29,080
Speaker 1: this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for,

2522
02:28:29,280 --> 02:28:33,840
Speaker 1: that describes this book because it's it's uh useful. Um

2523
02:28:34,480 --> 02:28:37,480
Speaker 1: The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon

2524
02:28:37,520 --> 02:28:39,400
Speaker 1: way Rich, who's his co author on this, call a

2525
02:28:39,520 --> 02:28:42,400
Speaker 1: cultural called cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than

2526
02:28:42,480 --> 02:28:45,680
Speaker 1: mere policy, the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal

2527
02:28:45,760 --> 02:28:48,920
Speaker 1: and illegal immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust

2528
02:28:49,000 --> 02:28:52,800
Speaker 1: investments and domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in

2529
02:28:52,840 --> 02:28:55,240
Speaker 1: a less Trumpi in Vain. It also promotes homeschooling and

2530
02:28:55,320 --> 02:28:57,800
Speaker 1: incorporates some ideas of from the New Urbanism as part

2531
02:28:57,840 --> 02:29:01,360
Speaker 1: of a broader program called Retrocal Chure. Of its connection

2532
02:29:01,440 --> 02:29:04,280
Speaker 1: with Trump, lynd says the book runs parallel to what

2533
02:29:04,400 --> 02:29:07,080
Speaker 1: he has been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity

2534
02:29:07,120 --> 02:29:11,240
Speaker 1: with its more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that

2535
02:29:11,440 --> 02:29:13,560
Speaker 1: is going to be really unsettling. And this, I think

2536
02:29:13,640 --> 02:29:15,920
Speaker 1: is what lynd may actually be going for, rather than

2537
02:29:15,959 --> 02:29:18,240
Speaker 1: any kind of reform in the military to improve its

2538
02:29:18,280 --> 02:29:21,560
Speaker 1: ability to win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen four, an

2539
02:29:21,640 --> 02:29:24,000
Speaker 1: article appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and

2540
02:29:24,040 --> 02:29:26,320
Speaker 1: two of the authors of the nineteen piece, where he

2541
02:29:26,360 --> 02:29:29,040
Speaker 1: introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended on

2542
02:29:29,120 --> 02:29:32,000
Speaker 1: a dire note. The point is not merely that America's

2543
02:29:32,080 --> 02:29:35,200
Speaker 1: armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state conflicts

2544
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:38,240
Speaker 1: and forces overseas. The point is that the same conflicts

2545
02:29:38,280 --> 02:29:40,640
Speaker 1: are coming here. The next real war we fight is

2546
02:29:40,720 --> 02:29:46,880
Speaker 1: likely to be on American soil. So that's what's going

2547
02:29:47,000 --> 02:29:51,560
Speaker 1: on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased towards

2548
02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:54,360
Speaker 1: action and increased killing power. If all you're really trying

2549
02:29:54,400 --> 02:29:56,600
Speaker 1: to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you using

2550
02:29:56,640 --> 02:29:58,800
Speaker 1: the military very quickly, well that might work for you.

2551
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:02,200
Speaker 1: People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction

2552
02:30:02,280 --> 02:30:05,520
Speaker 1: book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like

2553
02:30:05,720 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 1: TV tropes, um, the there's a TV It's not just

2554
02:30:10,200 --> 02:30:12,680
Speaker 1: TV tropes anymore. Like there's a trope page from my

2555
02:30:12,760 --> 02:30:16,039
Speaker 1: book After the Revolution and it's directly compared to Victoria,

2556
02:30:16,120 --> 02:30:19,080
Speaker 1: as like they're the opposites of each other because Victoria

2557
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:22,000
Speaker 1: is like a book about a civil war in the

2558
02:30:22,200 --> 02:30:30,600
Speaker 1: US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win

2559
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:35,320
Speaker 1: and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the

2560
02:30:35,440 --> 02:30:37,640
Speaker 1: problem is that like like like all of these like

2561
02:30:37,680 --> 02:30:41,440
Speaker 1: the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists like leaders who

2562
02:30:41,480 --> 02:30:43,880
Speaker 1: get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they

2563
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:47,400
Speaker 1: reintroduced to the to the society, and like California is

2564
02:30:47,440 --> 02:30:50,960
Speaker 1: so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um.

2565
02:30:51,320 --> 02:30:54,640
Speaker 1: And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um.

2566
02:30:55,080 --> 02:30:59,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, like it's it's all. So the person who

2567
02:30:59,120 --> 02:31:02,199
Speaker 1: wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's

2568
02:31:02,720 --> 02:31:07,000
Speaker 1: a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject

2569
02:31:07,080 --> 02:31:17,360
Speaker 1: of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong,

2570
02:31:17,440 --> 02:31:19,880
Speaker 1: but not that part. I know. But it's a fucking

2571
02:31:20,120 --> 02:31:22,760
Speaker 1: nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits of it.

2572
02:31:23,080 --> 02:31:24,880
Speaker 1: Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing. But

2573
02:31:28,120 --> 02:31:30,119
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing with all with all of these

2574
02:31:30,240 --> 02:31:33,680
Speaker 1: like cultural gamers, like they try to put on like

2575
02:31:34,320 --> 02:31:37,680
Speaker 1: war aesthetics, but all of them are the nerdiest fuckers

2576
02:31:37,720 --> 02:31:43,360
Speaker 1: he'll ever. He's so stupid, and I like all these

2577
02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:46,800
Speaker 1: guys are so they're so nerdy, all of them. Yeah,

2578
02:31:47,120 --> 02:31:50,200
Speaker 1: and like lynd, everything about him makes sense when you

2579
02:31:50,320 --> 02:31:54,000
Speaker 1: understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the

2580
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:59,120
Speaker 1: fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a

2581
02:31:59,200 --> 02:32:01,800
Speaker 1: little but also like again, he was not lying about

2582
02:32:02,000 --> 02:32:03,680
Speaker 1: there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book.

2583
02:32:03,680 --> 02:32:06,680
Speaker 1: He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like

2584
02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:10,960
Speaker 1: pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and

2585
02:32:11,040 --> 02:32:14,360
Speaker 1: have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among

2586
02:32:14,640 --> 02:32:17,400
Speaker 1: like the American right. His books have been found in

2587
02:32:17,520 --> 02:32:20,560
Speaker 1: like al Qaeda hideouts and ship Like. He makes sense

2588
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:22,760
Speaker 1: though that that that that like all of all of

2589
02:32:22,840 --> 02:32:25,640
Speaker 1: that really tracks is because yeah, like the the barrier

2590
02:32:25,760 --> 02:32:29,039
Speaker 1: between like terrorist action as a part of fourth generation

2591
02:32:29,160 --> 02:32:31,760
Speaker 1: and in some ways fifth generation warfare and then the

2592
02:32:31,840 --> 02:32:35,039
Speaker 1: type of like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand.

2593
02:32:35,160 --> 02:32:37,280
Speaker 1: Like that is like that is the goal of it

2594
02:32:37,520 --> 02:32:39,800
Speaker 1: is to make it work that way. So that doesn't

2595
02:32:39,800 --> 02:32:42,000
Speaker 1: surprise me that those types of terrorist groups would be

2596
02:32:42,080 --> 02:32:45,040
Speaker 1: reading his books for advice so or for like to

2597
02:32:45,120 --> 02:32:48,640
Speaker 1: like figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right,

2598
02:32:48,680 --> 02:32:51,120
Speaker 1: well that's probably enough talking about william S lind for

2599
02:32:51,200 --> 02:32:55,880
Speaker 1: today and cultural and the fourth generation, we'll talk There's

2600
02:32:55,879 --> 02:32:58,240
Speaker 1: a lot to dig into about how these ideas have

2601
02:32:58,440 --> 02:33:01,160
Speaker 1: influenced chunks of the right, how they're currently still being

2602
02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:04,400
Speaker 1: used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going on

2603
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:06,560
Speaker 1: right now. And again I do think particularly the idea

2604
02:33:06,600 --> 02:33:09,640
Speaker 1: of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict. I

2605
02:33:09,640 --> 02:33:12,280
Speaker 1: would I would go as far as to say, like crucial. Um,

2606
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:17,080
Speaker 1: so this is necessary background information to people to have,

2607
02:33:17,200 --> 02:33:18,960
Speaker 1: for people to have for like some of the other ship.

2608
02:33:19,000 --> 02:33:21,520
Speaker 1: We're going to be continuing to talk in this about

2609
02:33:21,640 --> 02:33:24,360
Speaker 1: in this series as we you know, as we talk

2610
02:33:24,480 --> 02:33:27,720
Speaker 1: more about kind of kinetic conflicts or at least building

2611
02:33:27,760 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 1: towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I think this is

2612
02:33:31,720 --> 02:33:34,280
Speaker 1: this is a useful kind of grounding. And now I'm

2613
02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:37,680
Speaker 1: going to send Chris and Garrison off to write an

2614
02:33:37,720 --> 02:33:42,000
Speaker 1: episode explaining who hegel is and everything he believed. I Yeah,

2615
02:33:42,080 --> 02:33:44,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. You're gonna you're gonna hear you

2616
02:33:44,400 --> 02:33:48,000
Speaker 1: you will watch me go mad in real time. It's

2617
02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:50,200
Speaker 1: gonna be great. Yeah. The other option is I can

2618
02:33:50,320 --> 02:33:52,760
Speaker 1: just read the Wikipedia page for Hegel with like a

2619
02:33:52,879 --> 02:33:58,080
Speaker 1: really offensive German accent. That that's better than that. Actually better.

2620
02:33:58,560 --> 02:34:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to I will. I promise you one thing,

2621
02:34:01,160 --> 02:34:03,040
Speaker 1: which is that I will wind up either Russian or

2622
02:34:03,080 --> 02:34:05,480
Speaker 1: Australian by the end. I can't stop that drift when

2623
02:34:05,520 --> 02:34:09,120
Speaker 1: I whenever I start doing. You know, I am a

2624
02:34:09,200 --> 02:34:15,040
Speaker 1: good chairman. Y'ah. My name is Mr Hegel, the absolute

2625
02:34:18,440 --> 02:34:21,720
Speaker 1: on media. We're gonna stop that right now. I probably

2626
02:34:21,760 --> 02:34:32,000
Speaker 1: should look for your children's eyes to see the true

2627
02:34:32,080 --> 02:34:35,520
Speaker 1: magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them.

2628
02:34:35,920 --> 02:34:38,800
Speaker 1: You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled

2629
02:34:38,879 --> 02:34:41,840
Speaker 1: face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky.

2630
02:34:42,400 --> 02:34:45,440
Speaker 1: They see treasure in pebbles, They see a windy path

2631
02:34:45,640 --> 02:34:50,080
Speaker 1: that could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.

2632
02:34:50,280 --> 02:34:53,520
Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and

2633
02:34:53,640 --> 02:34:56,640
Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to

2634
02:34:56,680 --> 02:34:59,200
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council.

2635
02:35:00,000 --> 02:35:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence on

2636
02:35:03,840 --> 02:35:06,720
Speaker 1: season two of Our podcast. We're exploring what it means

2637
02:35:06,760 --> 02:35:09,320
Speaker 1: to be a woman on social media. We're going into

2638
02:35:09,360 --> 02:35:12,640
Speaker 1: different pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is

2639
02:35:12,640 --> 02:35:15,840
Speaker 1: a reflection of all the weights that women are mistreated

2640
02:35:15,879 --> 02:35:19,320
Speaker 1: in our society, and we might just have a plan

2641
02:35:19,520 --> 02:35:23,160
Speaker 1: to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season

2642
02:35:23,200 --> 02:35:26,080
Speaker 1: two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on February

2643
02:35:26,160 --> 02:35:29,120
Speaker 1: ten on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

2644
02:35:29,160 --> 02:35:43,040
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Oh Macron, great timing. M hm,

2645
02:35:43,280 --> 02:35:46,680
Speaker 1: I love Oh Macron. I'm Robert Evans. This is it

2646
02:35:46,760 --> 02:35:55,680
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison,

2647
02:35:56,360 --> 02:35:57,440
Speaker 1: What do you? What do you? How do you? How

2648
02:35:57,440 --> 02:36:00,160
Speaker 1: do you feel about? Oh Macron? This is the thing

2649
02:36:00,200 --> 02:36:03,640
Speaker 1: to do with the topic we're talking about. So this

2650
02:36:03,840 --> 02:36:07,640
Speaker 1: is this is an update. A few of right last

2651
02:36:07,720 --> 02:36:12,000
Speaker 1: week were earlier this week we discussed the uh the

2652
02:36:12,080 --> 02:36:16,840
Speaker 1: Trucker Convoy scheduled our episode recorded before the Truck Convoy

2653
02:36:17,080 --> 02:36:19,200
Speaker 1: for after the Truck Convoy had already done a bunch

2654
02:36:19,240 --> 02:36:23,640
Speaker 1: of things, which was really good. So we we recorded

2655
02:36:23,680 --> 02:36:27,160
Speaker 1: to talk about the fifty trucks that were that we're

2656
02:36:27,160 --> 02:36:30,560
Speaker 1: going to show up at Ottawa and the thing things

2657
02:36:30,640 --> 02:36:34,800
Speaker 1: did happen, Maybe not that not because like I've been listening,

2658
02:36:34,920 --> 02:36:37,240
Speaker 1: some of their claims are like an Alex Jones is

2659
02:36:37,280 --> 02:36:39,440
Speaker 1: parenting there now that it was like eight hundred thousand

2660
02:36:39,480 --> 02:36:42,240
Speaker 1: to a million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers

2661
02:36:42,240 --> 02:36:46,240
Speaker 1: in all of Canada, like but it was like it

2662
02:36:46,360 --> 02:36:47,800
Speaker 1: was like it was a lot of people like not

2663
02:36:47,959 --> 02:36:50,960
Speaker 1: to not to downplay what happened. So we're going to

2664
02:36:51,000 --> 02:36:53,120
Speaker 1: give an update on what happened there and kind of

2665
02:36:53,200 --> 02:36:55,680
Speaker 1: discussed maybe any ramifications that stuff like this could have

2666
02:36:55,760 --> 02:36:58,760
Speaker 1: going forward. But to help with that, um, we have

2667
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:03,879
Speaker 1: Dan who came on last time to help discuss Hello,

2668
02:37:04,040 --> 02:37:05,920
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on again to talk about the

2669
02:37:05,959 --> 02:37:09,280
Speaker 1: same thing. Thank you for having me. We last less

2670
02:37:09,320 --> 02:37:12,959
Speaker 1: off with you saying that you hope I don't come

2671
02:37:12,959 --> 02:37:15,480
Speaker 1: back on again because that would be a good thing

2672
02:37:15,520 --> 02:37:17,960
Speaker 1: and it would mean that the bad things did not happen.

2673
02:37:18,480 --> 02:37:22,800
Speaker 1: So sorry to be here under such circumstances. Yeah, you

2674
02:37:22,879 --> 02:37:27,320
Speaker 1: want to go over the bad Yeah, So let's let's

2675
02:37:27,400 --> 02:37:30,280
Speaker 1: briefly do like a recap of like what this thing

2676
02:37:30,720 --> 02:37:33,080
Speaker 1: was like, like why why was it happening? And like

2677
02:37:33,200 --> 02:37:36,040
Speaker 1: what was the idea. When we last left Canada, a

2678
02:37:36,120 --> 02:37:38,440
Speaker 1: bunch of truckers were angry that they had to present

2679
02:37:38,560 --> 02:37:43,800
Speaker 1: evations evidence of vaccination. This spiraled and, as I'm understanding it,

2680
02:37:43,920 --> 02:37:49,160
Speaker 1: at some point then rejecting all public health measures. Yes. Actually,

2681
02:37:49,280 --> 02:37:53,240
Speaker 1: the the exact demands are for the federal and provincial

2682
02:37:53,320 --> 02:37:56,640
Speaker 1: governments to quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other

2683
02:37:56,760 --> 02:38:02,320
Speaker 1: obligatory obligatory vaccine contact tracing program uh, to terminate COVID

2684
02:38:02,879 --> 02:38:06,440
Speaker 1: vaccine mandates UH, and quote respect the rights of those

2685
02:38:06,480 --> 02:38:09,720
Speaker 1: who wished to remain unvaccinated UH. And here's where it

2686
02:38:09,760 --> 02:38:14,320
Speaker 1: gets weird. UH. Avisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with

2687
02:38:14,400 --> 02:38:16,800
Speaker 1: government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's

2688
02:38:16,840 --> 02:38:21,400
Speaker 1: fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures

2689
02:38:21,480 --> 02:38:24,120
Speaker 1: with the goal of censoring those who have varying or

2690
02:38:24,280 --> 02:38:29,520
Speaker 1: incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do

2691
02:38:29,560 --> 02:38:37,480
Speaker 1: you all know what a government is? Evidentitally I was

2692
02:38:37,560 --> 02:38:41,240
Speaker 1: at some debates in with the state that went a

2693
02:38:41,280 --> 02:38:45,320
Speaker 1: lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah,

2694
02:38:45,360 --> 02:38:48,720
Speaker 1: we we we can talk about that. This this the

2695
02:38:48,800 --> 02:38:51,160
Speaker 1: standoff has been well there's been just that it's been

2696
02:38:51,200 --> 02:38:55,600
Speaker 1: a standoff in that regard. So it seems like they've

2697
02:38:55,680 --> 02:38:59,039
Speaker 1: kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and threatened

2698
02:38:59,160 --> 02:39:02,800
Speaker 1: a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food, and

2699
02:39:03,040 --> 02:39:07,359
Speaker 1: that they left trash everywhere and set up a checkpoint

2700
02:39:07,440 --> 02:39:09,480
Speaker 1: on the border or just a blockade on the border.

2701
02:39:09,480 --> 02:39:12,200
Speaker 1: I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going

2702
02:39:12,280 --> 02:39:15,039
Speaker 1: on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy

2703
02:39:15,160 --> 02:39:17,600
Speaker 1: is an Alberta and coop right now, But I might

2704
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:20,000
Speaker 1: be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It

2705
02:39:20,120 --> 02:39:21,840
Speaker 1: was something along the lines of we don't think there's

2706
02:39:21,840 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 1: like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so

2707
02:39:24,720 --> 02:39:30,200
Speaker 1: you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah,

2708
02:39:30,320 --> 02:39:33,200
Speaker 1: so a little after two pm t D on a

2709
02:39:33,959 --> 02:39:37,720
Speaker 1: lafter two thirty pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter

2710
02:39:37,800 --> 02:39:40,480
Speaker 1: slowly said in a press conference that quote, there may

2711
02:39:40,560 --> 02:39:45,480
Speaker 1: not be a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it

2712
02:39:45,560 --> 02:39:49,720
Speaker 1: really that easy? It's evidently it's that easy if you

2713
02:39:50,640 --> 02:39:53,480
Speaker 1: wait till kind of like the media has had a

2714
02:39:53,600 --> 02:39:55,840
Speaker 1: few days and most of the coverage is just like

2715
02:39:57,560 --> 02:40:03,080
Speaker 1: breaking bad things still happening. Uh so it's it's not great.

2716
02:40:03,560 --> 02:40:06,040
Speaker 1: So what what was the lead up on set? Right?

2717
02:40:06,040 --> 02:40:08,160
Speaker 1: Because they were all they were all all the trucks

2718
02:40:08,240 --> 02:40:10,440
Speaker 1: and caravans and stuff. We're supposed to rive on Saturday.

2719
02:40:10,840 --> 02:40:13,280
Speaker 1: What was the lead up on Saturday? Like? And like

2720
02:40:13,400 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 1: what what what happened like the actual first day? Yeah,

2721
02:40:16,800 --> 02:40:22,080
Speaker 1: so Saturday was technically the first day. Actually Friday. Throughout

2722
02:40:22,120 --> 02:40:25,480
Speaker 1: the day a lot of people started arriving. So the

2723
02:40:25,560 --> 02:40:30,600
Speaker 1: occupation has been we're recording now Wednesday. Um, it started

2724
02:40:30,640 --> 02:40:35,520
Speaker 1: on Friday and the main like the largest contingent of

2725
02:40:35,640 --> 02:40:38,640
Speaker 1: the convoy was staying overnight Friday night in a nearby

2726
02:40:38,720 --> 02:40:42,200
Speaker 1: town called Armfire west of Ottawa, and they moved in

2727
02:40:42,320 --> 02:40:47,039
Speaker 1: from Armpire to Ottawa on Saturday morning. At the same time,

2728
02:40:47,160 --> 02:40:51,119
Speaker 1: people converged from other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's

2729
02:40:51,160 --> 02:40:55,160
Speaker 1: east is Quebec, and to Quebec's east the maritime provinces,

2730
02:40:55,680 --> 02:40:59,640
Speaker 1: and three thousand people at least came from Quebec and

2731
02:41:00,200 --> 02:41:03,160
Speaker 1: so with the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming

2732
02:41:03,200 --> 02:41:05,360
Speaker 1: in from different parts. The day between Friday night and

2733
02:41:05,440 --> 02:41:08,840
Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon and Saturday was kind of the big day,

2734
02:41:08,920 --> 02:41:13,800
Speaker 1: the big party, Uh, the main point of contention and

2735
02:41:13,920 --> 02:41:17,160
Speaker 1: the main thing that happened was some major streets are

2736
02:41:17,200 --> 02:41:20,560
Speaker 1: gridlocked by vehicles moving into the city into the very

2737
02:41:20,600 --> 02:41:23,879
Speaker 1: crowded core of auto of my hometown and staying stationary

2738
02:41:23,959 --> 02:41:27,400
Speaker 1: on busy roads. Both commercial and residential roads are part

2739
02:41:27,440 --> 02:41:30,680
Speaker 1: of this. Driveways for both businesses and residences were blocked off,

2740
02:41:30,840 --> 02:41:33,560
Speaker 1: fire roads were blocked off, and wance roads are blocked off.

2741
02:41:34,480 --> 02:41:38,320
Speaker 1: Local businesses that stayed open had to close throughout the

2742
02:41:38,400 --> 02:41:43,360
Speaker 1: day Saturday, largely UH, some managed to not, and many

2743
02:41:43,360 --> 02:41:45,520
Speaker 1: of just stayed closed already because they knew what was

2744
02:41:45,520 --> 02:41:49,800
Speaker 1: going to happen, and this happened. Closures that happened on

2745
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:52,320
Speaker 1: Saturday are mostly still going on today as I'm speaking

2746
02:41:52,360 --> 02:41:56,439
Speaker 1: to you Wednesday night. UH closures followed patterns of harassment,

2747
02:41:56,560 --> 02:41:59,880
Speaker 1: some alleged assaults which Rover mentioned before elso happened at

2748
02:42:00,080 --> 02:42:04,360
Speaker 1: homeless shelter in downtown Ottawa and pretty much everyone I've

2749
02:42:04,400 --> 02:42:07,720
Speaker 1: spoken to I've I've been in Ottawa visiting it to

2750
02:42:07,760 --> 02:42:10,920
Speaker 1: my hometown, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to who

2751
02:42:10,920 --> 02:42:12,560
Speaker 1: lives in the downtown core is that a slew of

2752
02:42:12,640 --> 02:42:15,200
Speaker 1: story since Saturday of either harassment at work or just

2753
02:42:15,320 --> 02:42:18,040
Speaker 1: harassment walking through the streets. And the worst part of

2754
02:42:18,080 --> 02:42:19,840
Speaker 1: it all is that right now there's not a clear

2755
02:42:19,920 --> 02:42:22,320
Speaker 1: ending in sight. What is it like on the ground

2756
02:42:22,480 --> 02:42:24,280
Speaker 1: there in terms of I know, there's like kind of

2757
02:42:24,320 --> 02:42:26,960
Speaker 1: like a blockade around the border. But they're like, what

2758
02:42:27,080 --> 02:42:30,120
Speaker 1: else is like around Ottawa? What's like? What? Like? What

2759
02:42:30,320 --> 02:42:33,000
Speaker 1: what is what's it like to walk around in these places?

2760
02:42:33,080 --> 02:42:34,920
Speaker 1: And like how big is the area that these people

2761
02:42:34,959 --> 02:42:37,199
Speaker 1: are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are

2762
02:42:37,200 --> 02:42:39,800
Speaker 1: they all sleeping in their trucks? Staying at hotels? What's

2763
02:42:39,959 --> 02:42:42,760
Speaker 1: like what's like the It's an excellent question. There's there's

2764
02:42:42,760 --> 02:42:45,040
Speaker 1: a mix of hotels were booked up the week leading

2765
02:42:45,120 --> 02:42:48,120
Speaker 1: up to the weekend. As as the new cycle kind

2766
02:42:48,160 --> 02:42:51,279
Speaker 1: of exploded, more and more people called into hotels in Ottawa.

2767
02:42:51,360 --> 02:42:53,920
Speaker 1: A lot of people actually brought tractors. People are also

2768
02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:57,320
Speaker 1: sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course, people have like

2769
02:42:57,400 --> 02:43:01,080
Speaker 1: family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're staying with um.

2770
02:43:03,680 --> 02:43:06,000
Speaker 1: It's a mix of everything. Actually, I know a guy

2771
02:43:06,040 --> 02:43:08,600
Speaker 1: who even his car was like blocked off in the

2772
02:43:08,680 --> 02:43:10,840
Speaker 1: parking lot. He has to parking because he's downtown. He

2773
02:43:10,920 --> 02:43:13,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have street parking or driveway parking like it's in

2774
02:43:14,000 --> 02:43:16,520
Speaker 1: a public lot, and he couldn't get his car out

2775
02:43:17,520 --> 02:43:20,320
Speaker 1: for over a full day because an RP camper set

2776
02:43:20,440 --> 02:43:23,520
Speaker 1: up near him and just blocked him off. So it's

2777
02:43:23,520 --> 02:43:28,080
Speaker 1: a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday, there's like

2778
02:43:28,160 --> 02:43:30,120
Speaker 1: a lot of partying, a lot of music, a lot

2779
02:43:30,200 --> 02:43:33,320
Speaker 1: of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit more chaotic

2780
02:43:33,760 --> 02:43:36,600
Speaker 1: and less condensed since then. And also the area is

2781
02:43:36,879 --> 02:43:41,360
Speaker 1: hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly as vehicles

2782
02:43:41,440 --> 02:43:44,320
Speaker 1: move out for one reason or another. Streets are kind

2783
02:43:44,320 --> 02:43:48,040
Speaker 1: of being retaken back organically by the city, but then

2784
02:43:48,080 --> 02:43:51,039
Speaker 1: sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back by the convoy.

2785
02:43:51,320 --> 02:43:53,200
Speaker 1: So the occupation has been a little fluid on some

2786
02:43:53,240 --> 02:43:55,560
Speaker 1: of the outside streets. Wellington's Street, which is the street

2787
02:43:55,600 --> 02:44:00,120
Speaker 1: outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been consistently occupied, to

2788
02:44:00,200 --> 02:44:04,560
Speaker 1: my knowledge, blocking off kind of not actually blocking off,

2789
02:44:04,600 --> 02:44:07,600
Speaker 1: but you have to walk past them as a pedestrian

2790
02:44:07,640 --> 02:44:10,320
Speaker 1: to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's where the kind

2791
02:44:10,320 --> 02:44:11,960
Speaker 1: of the core is, the action of the action is,

2792
02:44:12,000 --> 02:44:15,000
Speaker 1: and everything else spreads out from that. And near hotels, uh,

2793
02:44:15,480 --> 02:44:18,000
Speaker 1: there's a little more action because that's generally where people

2794
02:44:18,000 --> 02:44:22,720
Speaker 1: are staying how has members of parliament and like local

2795
02:44:22,800 --> 02:44:26,400
Speaker 1: politicians been reacting since Saturday. I know there was there

2796
02:44:26,480 --> 02:44:29,000
Speaker 1: was some videos of like I think one of the

2797
02:44:29,120 --> 02:44:32,640
Speaker 1: MP's from Alberta was giving an interview that gained some

2798
02:44:32,800 --> 02:44:36,240
Speaker 1: traction online. Um, but yeah, it's kind of curious, like

2799
02:44:36,320 --> 02:44:39,400
Speaker 1: how the like different government officials are talking about this.

2800
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:43,440
Speaker 1: I'm actually so glad you asked that because as of today,

2801
02:44:44,200 --> 02:44:48,200
Speaker 1: the divide in members of Parliament has actually led to

2802
02:44:48,440 --> 02:44:52,960
Speaker 1: some pretty incredible political ramifications. So last time we spoke,

2803
02:44:53,000 --> 02:44:55,280
Speaker 1: I think Arin O'Toole had just earlier in the day

2804
02:44:55,800 --> 02:44:58,560
Speaker 1: endorsed compoints that he'd be coming down. Arin o't tool,

2805
02:44:58,640 --> 02:45:01,680
Speaker 1: for those unaware, is the leader of the Conservative Party

2806
02:45:01,680 --> 02:45:10,920
Speaker 1: of Canada. He's a real, real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown?

2807
02:45:12,000 --> 02:45:14,560
Speaker 1: No one, No one could have seen that joke coming.

2808
02:45:17,600 --> 02:45:22,760
Speaker 1: Every every Canadian listener just like collectively roll. Yeah. So

2809
02:45:23,840 --> 02:45:27,520
Speaker 1: Aeron o't tool and just endorsed the convoy. He'd been

2810
02:45:27,520 --> 02:45:32,520
Speaker 1: getting some tough questions about it following everything we just

2811
02:45:32,600 --> 02:45:35,440
Speaker 1: talked about and more. Aerono's to will walk that back

2812
02:45:36,320 --> 02:45:38,800
Speaker 1: and said, you know, he didn't approve of the way

2813
02:45:38,840 --> 02:45:41,200
Speaker 1: that the convoy was acting in Ottawa. This led to

2814
02:45:41,280 --> 02:45:44,240
Speaker 1: a swift referendum on his leadership, and earlier today aerono'

2815
02:45:44,320 --> 02:45:47,160
Speaker 1: tool was voted out as the Conservative Party leader in

2816
02:45:47,320 --> 02:45:52,600
Speaker 1: Canada and that does have pretty big ramifications. I know,

2817
02:45:52,760 --> 02:45:55,760
Speaker 1: I talked about Erin o'tol a decent amount in my

2818
02:45:55,959 --> 02:45:59,880
Speaker 1: previous Canada episodes for codapp and here. Um, so yeah,

2819
02:46:00,000 --> 02:46:03,000
Speaker 1: it will be really interesting to see who, uh what's

2820
02:46:03,240 --> 02:46:06,520
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea of when the new person

2821
02:46:06,680 --> 02:46:08,960
Speaker 1: is going to try to get voted it? Like, when

2822
02:46:09,560 --> 02:46:11,480
Speaker 1: when do you think that process is going to happen

2823
02:46:11,560 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: to fill that spot. I'm actually not sure. I haven't

2824
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:17,280
Speaker 1: looked up when it's gonna happen. It feels like there's

2825
02:46:17,320 --> 02:46:20,320
Speaker 1: been months before. Whether there's an intimaters of the Conservative Party.

2826
02:46:21,120 --> 02:46:24,920
Speaker 1: The main concern right now for those outside of Conservative

2827
02:46:24,920 --> 02:46:28,120
Speaker 1: politics is because Erin o'tool was considered relatively moderate. That

2828
02:46:28,280 --> 02:46:31,040
Speaker 1: you talked about in the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin

2829
02:46:31,080 --> 02:46:35,160
Speaker 1: O'Toole picked out Darren Sloan from the party for being

2830
02:46:35,400 --> 02:46:38,880
Speaker 1: pretty kit on donations from neo Nazi Paul Front on

2831
02:46:39,000 --> 02:46:42,920
Speaker 1: his campaign. Uh. Overall, like that's a pretty great thing

2832
02:46:42,959 --> 02:46:44,879
Speaker 1: that Erin o'tool that kicked him out of the caucus,

2833
02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:49,880
Speaker 1: like regardless of other elements of that leadership. Uh, there's

2834
02:46:49,959 --> 02:46:54,800
Speaker 1: worrying that that kind of won't be continued forward, especially

2835
02:46:54,800 --> 02:46:57,480
Speaker 1: because Sloan was also in the leadership race and Sloan

2836
02:46:57,560 --> 02:47:01,880
Speaker 1: has only gotten further right since then. It is just

2837
02:47:02,320 --> 02:47:05,800
Speaker 1: despite air no tools, not great aspects, which there are

2838
02:47:05,879 --> 02:47:08,480
Speaker 1: lots of. He did, he did, he did take it.

2839
02:47:08,720 --> 02:47:12,920
Speaker 1: He did kind of hold back some of the more

2840
02:47:13,280 --> 02:47:18,600
Speaker 1: problematic uh conservative like elements, whether that be you know,

2841
02:47:18,760 --> 02:47:22,199
Speaker 1: people from you know, from his own party, like like Derek,

2842
02:47:22,600 --> 02:47:25,000
Speaker 1: and then also keeping kind of the people's party stuff

2843
02:47:25,040 --> 02:47:28,600
Speaker 1: at bay Um. Yeah, and that will be an interesting

2844
02:47:28,680 --> 02:47:33,560
Speaker 1: kind of power struggle now, that will be something to observe.

2845
02:47:34,520 --> 02:47:37,240
Speaker 1: I think the thing that concerns me most about all

2846
02:47:37,280 --> 02:47:40,840
Speaker 1: of this is the implication of the implications for this

2847
02:47:40,959 --> 02:47:43,960
Speaker 1: is a tactic. We saw a version of this that

2848
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:48,400
Speaker 1: was more limited in scope and time in Portland when

2849
02:47:48,440 --> 02:47:52,280
Speaker 1: this huge Trump caravan rolled through downtown, blocked off big

2850
02:47:52,360 --> 02:47:55,840
Speaker 1: chunks of downtown and like just maced and shot people

2851
02:47:55,879 --> 02:47:57,920
Speaker 1: with paintball guns at random, and it was kind of like,

2852
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:01,400
Speaker 1: I think everyone there surprised at how many folks they

2853
02:48:01,480 --> 02:48:04,560
Speaker 1: got for it. Um, this is a much more evolved

2854
02:48:04,920 --> 02:48:07,280
Speaker 1: version of the same tactic. And it's kind of stuff

2855
02:48:07,280 --> 02:48:08,680
Speaker 1: we talked about in the season one of it could

2856
02:48:08,680 --> 02:48:12,480
Speaker 1: happen here. This idea of like people coming from these

2857
02:48:12,920 --> 02:48:16,080
Speaker 1: conservative majority areas in a place where the vast majority

2858
02:48:16,080 --> 02:48:19,080
Speaker 1: of people are liberal but centralized in the cities UM

2859
02:48:19,280 --> 02:48:24,959
Speaker 1: and blocking those cities off or otherwise disrupting their ability

2860
02:48:25,080 --> 02:48:28,240
Speaker 1: to transit UM, potentially their ability to get things shipped

2861
02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:31,480
Speaker 1: in like food UM, like their ability to use free

2862
02:48:31,560 --> 02:48:34,200
Speaker 1: movement UM. And we've seen pieces of this again in

2863
02:48:34,240 --> 02:48:36,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of places, and in Oregon during the wildfires,

2864
02:48:37,000 --> 02:48:39,320
Speaker 1: you had these rural communities setting up checkpoints and stuff

2865
02:48:39,320 --> 02:48:41,840
Speaker 1: looking for people from the cities that they could bill

2866
02:48:41,879 --> 02:48:44,760
Speaker 1: as Antifa. And it's this it's this world worrying trend

2867
02:48:44,800 --> 02:48:47,040
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. Number One, when you get

2868
02:48:47,920 --> 02:48:50,640
Speaker 1: ten people to do something like this, even if the

2869
02:48:50,680 --> 02:48:53,560
Speaker 1: city has hundreds of thousands of people, that's effectively too

2870
02:48:53,640 --> 02:48:56,720
Speaker 1: large a group to police UM. And the police don't

2871
02:48:56,760 --> 02:48:58,880
Speaker 1: want to police it anyway, so there's not even really

2872
02:48:58,959 --> 02:49:01,720
Speaker 1: an attempt to stop of them UM. And it's a

2873
02:49:01,760 --> 02:49:05,360
Speaker 1: way in which the vast majority of Canada, at least

2874
02:49:05,360 --> 02:49:08,760
Speaker 1: based on the polling I'm aware of. UM is not

2875
02:49:09,080 --> 02:49:11,440
Speaker 1: in support of the causes these guys are backing. Was

2876
02:49:11,480 --> 02:49:16,440
Speaker 1: it of the country supports some level of like vaccine mandates, um,

2877
02:49:16,800 --> 02:49:18,960
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly the last one I read. So

2878
02:49:19,040 --> 02:49:21,199
Speaker 1: this is not a popular movement. It's not even super

2879
02:49:21,240 --> 02:49:26,320
Speaker 1: popular among the truckers, like the actual it doesn't matter

2880
02:49:26,320 --> 02:49:27,920
Speaker 1: how many people in the cities you can get. If

2881
02:49:27,920 --> 02:49:30,640
Speaker 1: you can get fifty people to do something like this,

2882
02:49:31,000 --> 02:49:33,560
Speaker 1: the police won't will not take action, and you can

2883
02:49:33,840 --> 02:49:36,880
Speaker 1: negatively impact the lives of a huge number of millions

2884
02:49:37,240 --> 02:49:40,160
Speaker 1: before it gets radical, right, that's when these guys are

2885
02:49:40,240 --> 02:49:43,480
Speaker 1: not coming in with guns with the express plan to

2886
02:49:43,560 --> 02:49:46,760
Speaker 1: eliminate people or trying to specifically block up food. They're

2887
02:49:46,800 --> 02:49:49,560
Speaker 1: just kind of sucking around now. But it's this kind

2888
02:49:49,600 --> 02:49:52,120
Speaker 1: of is this thing we've talked about where you have

2889
02:49:52,440 --> 02:49:54,280
Speaker 1: this is the thing in Canada and the United States

2890
02:49:54,360 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 1: you had liberals kind of outsourcing the protection of society

2891
02:49:57,560 --> 02:50:01,360
Speaker 1: to this group of increasingly heavily armed and aradiqualized people

2892
02:50:01,400 --> 02:50:04,640
Speaker 1: who are now in a lot of cases fascists. UM.

2893
02:50:04,959 --> 02:50:08,800
Speaker 1: And that means that when there's a problem with a

2894
02:50:08,959 --> 02:50:12,280
Speaker 1: large chunk of people who hate everything, you stand for

2895
02:50:12,879 --> 02:50:15,840
Speaker 1: the people that you have completely outsourced protection to are

2896
02:50:16,200 --> 02:50:18,520
Speaker 1: all unfavor of fucking with you because they hate you.

2897
02:50:19,040 --> 02:50:22,040
Speaker 1: And it's it's a problem in Oregon, It's going to

2898
02:50:22,120 --> 02:50:24,880
Speaker 1: be a problem in fucking New York City or whatever

2899
02:50:25,120 --> 02:50:28,360
Speaker 1: at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um, I

2900
02:50:28,440 --> 02:50:30,440
Speaker 1: don't know, am I am I off base here? Am

2901
02:50:30,480 --> 02:50:32,520
Speaker 1: I am? I am You're not on base at all?

2902
02:50:32,760 --> 02:50:36,040
Speaker 1: And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to

2903
02:50:36,200 --> 02:50:38,959
Speaker 1: really elaborate on past what you said the last time

2904
02:50:39,000 --> 02:50:41,200
Speaker 1: we spoke. I think, Robert, you said there's not a

2905
02:50:41,240 --> 02:50:43,960
Speaker 1: whole lot. It was what you said that could really

2906
02:50:44,040 --> 02:50:48,360
Speaker 1: really be done with the vehicle occupation tactic and unless

2907
02:50:48,400 --> 02:50:50,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people are willing to meet them with

2908
02:50:50,120 --> 02:50:54,440
Speaker 1: an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's

2909
02:50:54,480 --> 02:50:58,600
Speaker 1: an Ottawas. Ottawas a relatively large city in Canada. There's

2910
02:50:58,640 --> 02:51:01,240
Speaker 1: over a million people that live here. Also by land mass,

2911
02:51:01,320 --> 02:51:04,119
Speaker 1: I think the largest city in Canada, like east to west,

2912
02:51:04,200 --> 02:51:06,840
Speaker 1: it's it's very spread out, so it's a low population density.

2913
02:51:07,120 --> 02:51:11,000
Speaker 1: So even the affected area downtown is actually like pretty

2914
02:51:11,040 --> 02:51:15,600
Speaker 1: small in relation to the city itself, which is pretty

2915
02:51:15,640 --> 02:51:18,320
Speaker 1: unfortunate and like it's not a particularly packed downtown for

2916
02:51:18,400 --> 02:51:21,800
Speaker 1: a large sis downtown. I am. I am curious kind

2917
02:51:21,800 --> 02:51:27,240
Speaker 1: of on the violence aspect um has Like I know,

2918
02:51:27,440 --> 02:51:32,240
Speaker 1: there's been like um increase in death threats to members

2919
02:51:32,280 --> 02:51:36,400
Speaker 1: of parliament, like specifically liberal members of parliament, specifically liberal

2920
02:51:36,520 --> 02:51:40,320
Speaker 1: members of parliament who are women who are maybe not white. Um.

2921
02:51:41,080 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 1: So I would curious see if if you have any

2922
02:51:44,320 --> 02:51:46,840
Speaker 1: more kind of information on that side of things, and

2923
02:51:46,920 --> 02:51:49,720
Speaker 1: then how how violence has popped up in a few

2924
02:51:49,800 --> 02:51:55,920
Speaker 1: places throughout the past like a week. Basically, Yeah, there's

2925
02:51:56,000 --> 02:51:59,480
Speaker 1: been a lot. So, I mean, even if you're going

2926
02:51:59,560 --> 02:52:02,600
Speaker 1: by what's reported like right now, there is by most estimates,

2927
02:52:03,040 --> 02:52:05,600
Speaker 1: under a thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very

2928
02:52:05,640 --> 02:52:08,440
Speaker 1: far spread out people as part of the convoy. As

2929
02:52:08,480 --> 02:52:11,840
Speaker 1: of yesterday, there's thirteen active police investigations. The police of

2930
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:16,200
Speaker 1: the city the City of Ottawa said in the an Oppressor.

2931
02:52:16,840 --> 02:52:19,440
Speaker 1: We obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in

2932
02:52:19,520 --> 02:52:22,280
Speaker 1: anything this big, there's way more that's not being reported,

2933
02:52:22,360 --> 02:52:28,000
Speaker 1: not being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like

2934
02:52:28,560 --> 02:52:32,120
Speaker 1: these things are going to thirteen is going to be

2935
02:52:32,200 --> 02:52:34,400
Speaker 1: resultful of something bad. So some of the things that happened.

2936
02:52:34,480 --> 02:52:37,720
Speaker 1: Robert mentioned before the alleged assaults on a houseless person

2937
02:52:37,800 --> 02:52:41,760
Speaker 1: inside of Shepherds of Good Hope, in which a security

2938
02:52:41,760 --> 02:52:45,480
Speaker 1: guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was

2939
02:52:45,680 --> 02:52:48,560
Speaker 1: a house that deplayed displayed a rainbow flag outside of

2940
02:52:48,600 --> 02:52:53,039
Speaker 1: it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um,

2941
02:52:54,080 --> 02:52:56,320
Speaker 1: they're being we need to get a hundred thousand people

2942
02:52:56,400 --> 02:52:58,840
Speaker 1: together to throw their own poop back at these people.

2943
02:52:58,920 --> 02:53:02,240
Speaker 1: It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with fire?

2944
02:53:03,360 --> 02:53:06,280
Speaker 1: Is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from just

2945
02:53:06,520 --> 02:53:11,680
Speaker 1: a tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah,

2946
02:53:11,680 --> 02:53:14,080
Speaker 1: there's been suggestions all of our social media channels on

2947
02:53:14,240 --> 02:53:16,840
Speaker 1: like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught.

2948
02:53:17,879 --> 02:53:20,280
Speaker 1: Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence. So like what

2949
02:53:21,000 --> 02:53:23,800
Speaker 1: I think maybe some context that that isn't always known

2950
02:53:24,400 --> 02:53:28,360
Speaker 1: in Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in restaurants

2951
02:53:28,640 --> 02:53:31,400
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown following

2952
02:53:31,400 --> 02:53:35,240
Speaker 1: around the chron wave and a lot of people even

2953
02:53:35,320 --> 02:53:37,760
Speaker 1: coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to people

2954
02:53:37,800 --> 02:53:41,000
Speaker 1: on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know like

2955
02:53:41,120 --> 02:53:43,480
Speaker 1: when the restaurants around here opens, so we can like

2956
02:53:43,560 --> 02:53:44,880
Speaker 1: sit down for a meal. And I was like, there's

2957
02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:46,680
Speaker 1: no sitting down on auto this. So what people were doing,

2958
02:53:46,720 --> 02:53:48,840
Speaker 1: they were going inside cafe is like two burns and stuff,

2959
02:53:49,080 --> 02:53:51,000
Speaker 1: and they were just refusing to leave in eating their

2960
02:53:51,040 --> 02:53:52,720
Speaker 1: food there anyways. And if there was no seats, they

2961
02:53:52,720 --> 02:53:55,480
Speaker 1: were just like eating in line. It was also minus

2962
02:53:55,520 --> 02:53:58,400
Speaker 1: twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very very

2963
02:53:58,440 --> 02:54:00,720
Speaker 1: cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning,

2964
02:54:01,440 --> 02:54:03,240
Speaker 1: so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a

2965
02:54:03,240 --> 02:54:05,400
Speaker 1: lot of other options other than like swarm the malls

2966
02:54:05,440 --> 02:54:07,280
Speaker 1: and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main

2967
02:54:07,360 --> 02:54:10,320
Speaker 1: mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the

2968
02:54:10,400 --> 02:54:14,160
Speaker 1: day because it was not a safe place. So I

2969
02:54:14,200 --> 02:54:19,600
Speaker 1: already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence,

2970
02:54:19,680 --> 02:54:22,560
Speaker 1: but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless

2971
02:54:22,600 --> 02:54:26,160
Speaker 1: honking if you watch video footage from it, and even

2972
02:54:26,200 --> 02:54:28,400
Speaker 1: in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like

2973
02:54:28,520 --> 02:54:32,120
Speaker 1: I can hear honking in my background. Um. Some people

2974
02:54:32,200 --> 02:54:35,080
Speaker 1: allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an

2975
02:54:35,120 --> 02:54:43,720
Speaker 1: unknown soldier which is yeah, this isn't political. Is even

2976
02:54:43,760 --> 02:54:45,520
Speaker 1: the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's

2977
02:54:45,680 --> 02:54:48,560
Speaker 1: fun about this for these people, it's that they suck. Yeah,

2978
02:54:48,600 --> 02:54:52,640
Speaker 1: it's fucking it's just it's just fucking cooliganism. Uh And

2979
02:54:52,920 --> 02:54:56,640
Speaker 1: that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be a

2980
02:54:56,720 --> 02:55:00,920
Speaker 1: lot more stories coming out, for sure, U as things progress,

2981
02:55:01,280 --> 02:55:03,800
Speaker 1: um of stories of harassment, Like I've talked to people

2982
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:07,360
Speaker 1: who have gotten a cat call in the night. People

2983
02:55:07,440 --> 02:55:11,240
Speaker 1: getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are going

2984
02:55:11,320 --> 02:55:13,200
Speaker 1: to break out. It's kind of at a very tense

2985
02:55:13,280 --> 02:55:15,560
Speaker 1: point right now. And Auto we're at that point. We're like, Okay,

2986
02:55:15,680 --> 02:55:19,440
Speaker 1: we're seeing some signs like pops getting thrown at the houses.

2987
02:55:20,720 --> 02:55:24,800
Speaker 1: What's gonna happen next? Because the police are saying they

2988
02:55:24,840 --> 02:55:27,119
Speaker 1: don't have a plan, and the truckers are saying they're

2989
02:55:27,120 --> 02:55:32,039
Speaker 1: not leaving. What's it like outside of Bottawa, across across

2990
02:55:32,080 --> 02:55:35,000
Speaker 1: all the other places where there's like similar activity happening.

2991
02:55:36,000 --> 02:55:38,240
Speaker 1: They're all looking to us and being concerned. From what

2992
02:55:38,360 --> 02:55:42,439
Speaker 1: I'm talking to, Uh, anti fascists and Alberta are particularly

2993
02:55:42,560 --> 02:55:48,400
Speaker 1: concerned right now with the coop protests. There's ongoing to uh,

2994
02:55:49,440 --> 02:55:53,840
Speaker 1: I keep seeing popping up like US Canada border activities.

2995
02:55:53,840 --> 02:55:57,600
Speaker 1: In the same there's a few attempted convoys by Americans

2996
02:55:57,640 --> 02:55:59,959
Speaker 1: and even before in Europe there was a few attempts.

2997
02:56:00,080 --> 02:56:02,480
Speaker 1: Some got turned away. Some Americans got turned away the

2998
02:56:02,520 --> 02:56:08,800
Speaker 1: Canadian borders. They weren't vaccinated. H Yeah, which is you know,

2999
02:56:09,160 --> 02:56:13,600
Speaker 1: like it's like you think, because that's the reason they're

3000
02:56:13,600 --> 02:56:16,760
Speaker 1: saying they're protesting, they would have remembered that and thought

3001
02:56:16,840 --> 02:56:20,520
Speaker 1: maybe that's gonna like come into play, But I don't. Yeah,

3002
02:56:20,520 --> 02:56:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, because there is a certain point where

3003
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:25,160
Speaker 1: if you get enough people going, it would be interesting

3004
02:56:25,200 --> 02:56:27,240
Speaker 1: to see people really do just try to like drive

3005
02:56:27,320 --> 02:56:31,879
Speaker 1: through the border. M Yeah. And I mean there's been

3006
02:56:31,959 --> 02:56:33,959
Speaker 1: people like you look at social media channels, a lot

3007
02:56:34,000 --> 02:56:35,920
Speaker 1: of them saying like the borders are blocked right now

3008
02:56:36,040 --> 02:56:38,640
Speaker 1: with thousands of truckers supporting our cause. So if you

3009
02:56:38,720 --> 02:56:40,200
Speaker 1: saw that and you believed it, and then you went

3010
02:56:40,240 --> 02:56:41,959
Speaker 1: to the border and your turn away reading a vaccine,

3011
02:56:41,959 --> 02:56:43,400
Speaker 1: you meant thought, well, I thought I had you know,

3012
02:56:43,560 --> 02:56:46,480
Speaker 1: nine people the same causes being we're ready to use

3013
02:56:46,560 --> 02:56:48,959
Speaker 1: for us, which begs the question, but what happens when

3014
02:56:49,000 --> 02:56:52,680
Speaker 1: you do exactly. I don't want to find out. Yeah,

3015
02:56:52,760 --> 02:56:56,640
Speaker 1: that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if

3016
02:56:56,720 --> 02:56:58,920
Speaker 1: they do, if they did have what they say they had,

3017
02:56:59,240 --> 02:57:01,080
Speaker 1: would they just start doing those things and not even

3018
02:57:01,160 --> 02:57:02,640
Speaker 1: think about it and not even think about like the

3019
02:57:02,800 --> 02:57:06,200
Speaker 1: politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah.

3020
02:57:06,440 --> 02:57:08,880
Speaker 1: I should also mention too, we talked last time about

3021
02:57:10,879 --> 02:57:15,160
Speaker 1: a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were

3022
02:57:15,320 --> 02:57:19,680
Speaker 1: broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh,

3023
02:57:19,800 --> 02:57:21,680
Speaker 1: and it came out the news to do was first

3024
02:57:21,720 --> 02:57:23,800
Speaker 1: reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian

3025
02:57:23,800 --> 02:57:26,640
Speaker 1: Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up

3026
02:57:26,680 --> 02:57:30,720
Speaker 1: striges in No Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he

3027
02:57:30,920 --> 02:57:34,080
Speaker 1: was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jonestones

3028
02:57:34,760 --> 02:57:39,040
Speaker 1: Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah,

3029
02:57:39,160 --> 02:57:41,800
Speaker 1: Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program,

3030
02:57:42,240 --> 02:57:45,480
Speaker 1: So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great, that's

3031
02:57:45,480 --> 02:57:48,800
Speaker 1: what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond

3032
02:57:49,000 --> 02:57:53,000
Speaker 1: the conservative leadership? What other kind of political implications are

3033
02:57:53,080 --> 02:57:56,480
Speaker 1: people thinking about in Canada? It's really tense seeing what's

3034
02:57:56,480 --> 02:57:59,200
Speaker 1: gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a

3035
02:57:59,280 --> 02:58:02,920
Speaker 1: second wave some other people in other places that kind

3036
02:58:02,920 --> 02:58:04,160
Speaker 1: of didn't think the first one is going to be

3037
02:58:04,280 --> 02:58:06,200
Speaker 1: huge success. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation,

3038
02:58:06,280 --> 02:58:09,240
Speaker 1: we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave.

3039
02:58:09,760 --> 02:58:13,240
Speaker 1: It's a very tense place right now. We don't really

3040
02:58:13,280 --> 02:58:17,680
Speaker 1: know what to do. Community places are taking direct community

3041
02:58:17,920 --> 02:58:21,360
Speaker 1: members are talking about taking direct action because it's been

3042
02:58:21,400 --> 02:58:23,640
Speaker 1: so long. This isn't something that the city of Otta

3043
02:58:23,800 --> 02:58:27,760
Speaker 1: is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so

3044
02:58:27,879 --> 02:58:31,440
Speaker 1: the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming

3045
02:58:31,600 --> 02:58:35,960
Speaker 1: is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number.

3046
02:58:36,000 --> 02:58:38,280
Speaker 1: I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thou people

3047
02:58:38,959 --> 02:58:41,200
Speaker 1: into a city of over a million, which isn't really

3048
02:58:41,280 --> 02:58:43,000
Speaker 1: that many when you think about it, but the strategy

3049
02:58:43,160 --> 02:58:47,080
Speaker 1: was very, very effective. You think about how many fighters

3050
02:58:47,160 --> 02:58:49,960
Speaker 1: it took for Josh to take control of mosl it

3051
02:58:50,360 --> 02:58:53,280
Speaker 1: if people if there's not resistance, like there's only really

3052
02:58:54,000 --> 02:58:56,000
Speaker 1: a few areas of a city that you need to

3053
02:58:56,160 --> 02:58:58,600
Speaker 1: occupy in order to have a great deal of control

3054
02:58:58,680 --> 02:59:02,000
Speaker 1: over what can be done. Yeah, and that's the tough

3055
02:59:02,040 --> 02:59:03,680
Speaker 1: part is they have a lot of control over that

3056
02:59:03,800 --> 02:59:06,040
Speaker 1: small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot

3057
02:59:06,120 --> 02:59:11,640
Speaker 1: of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah.

3058
02:59:11,879 --> 02:59:14,440
Speaker 1: I've also just to see has the Canadian military said

3059
02:59:14,480 --> 02:59:19,279
Speaker 1: anything about these protests and the situation. So the Ottawa

3060
02:59:19,320 --> 02:59:21,280
Speaker 1: Police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot

3061
02:59:21,320 --> 02:59:24,280
Speaker 1: about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying

3062
02:59:24,520 --> 02:59:27,879
Speaker 1: he doesn't think military is the only option, which if

3063
02:59:27,959 --> 02:59:30,520
Speaker 1: you're an activist on the other side of things and

3064
02:59:30,640 --> 02:59:33,920
Speaker 1: worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that

3065
02:59:34,200 --> 02:59:36,480
Speaker 1: might be a good thing to hear. Yea and a

3066
02:59:36,600 --> 02:59:40,439
Speaker 1: see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military

3067
02:59:40,879 --> 02:59:44,600
Speaker 1: would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa

3068
02:59:44,720 --> 02:59:48,200
Speaker 1: had other police forces coming to They said they're spending

3069
02:59:48,240 --> 02:59:51,840
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh, initially to just

3070
02:59:52,440 --> 02:59:56,600
Speaker 1: costing police. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws,

3071
02:59:56,640 --> 02:59:59,240
Speaker 1: only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing

3072
02:59:59,280 --> 03:00:03,320
Speaker 1: started in the ocupied zone. So it's it's unclear what

3073
03:00:03,360 --> 03:00:05,360
Speaker 1: a lot of them did other than you know, keep

3074
03:00:05,440 --> 03:00:08,400
Speaker 1: up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around, I saw

3075
03:00:08,560 --> 03:00:11,040
Speaker 1: York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's

3076
03:00:11,120 --> 03:00:15,920
Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence,

3077
03:00:16,320 --> 03:00:18,400
Speaker 1: especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had

3078
03:00:18,440 --> 03:00:22,520
Speaker 1: plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I

3079
03:00:22,600 --> 03:00:25,840
Speaker 1: thought it would die later, or a mixture of all

3080
03:00:25,920 --> 03:00:29,920
Speaker 1: the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some

3081
03:00:30,080 --> 03:00:32,520
Speaker 1: police officers have not been happy with it, but there

3082
03:00:32,560 --> 03:00:34,400
Speaker 1: hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no

3083
03:00:34,440 --> 03:00:36,280
Speaker 1: one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like

3084
03:00:37,520 --> 03:00:40,400
Speaker 1: from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the

3085
03:00:40,480 --> 03:00:43,600
Speaker 1: auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken,

3086
03:00:44,720 --> 03:00:49,280
Speaker 1: some saying otherwise, it's not really united right now. And yeah,

3087
03:00:49,920 --> 03:00:53,480
Speaker 1: it's scary. Is there any counter protests being planned for Ottawa?

3088
03:00:55,480 --> 03:00:57,480
Speaker 1: If I knew, i'd say so, because by the time

3089
03:00:57,600 --> 03:00:59,360
Speaker 1: this errors, they would have happened. So I think you'd

3090
03:00:59,400 --> 03:01:03,840
Speaker 1: be safe to talk talk about. But fortunately I'm not

3091
03:01:04,000 --> 03:01:06,280
Speaker 1: really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it might not

3092
03:01:06,360 --> 03:01:11,640
Speaker 1: be the best person to ask. Yeah, we're keeping an

3093
03:01:11,680 --> 03:01:17,840
Speaker 1: eye out. Well. The good news is that all men die,

3094
03:01:18,160 --> 03:01:21,280
Speaker 1: and so long as men die, liberty will never perish. Right,

3095
03:01:21,520 --> 03:01:25,440
Speaker 1: that's good it's an upside. That is an upside, it's

3096
03:01:25,440 --> 03:01:29,480
Speaker 1: an up positive shot. All right, Well, that's gonna do

3097
03:01:29,600 --> 03:01:32,000
Speaker 1: it for us. We'll keep an eye on this and

3098
03:01:32,280 --> 03:01:36,400
Speaker 1: um what what results from it, because it's all pretty concerning,

3099
03:01:36,760 --> 03:01:40,160
Speaker 1: um and worth having having an eye. And I'm particularly

3100
03:01:40,280 --> 03:01:43,240
Speaker 1: curious is to just like what kind of direct community

3101
03:01:43,879 --> 03:01:46,520
Speaker 1: responses to this develop because I think that's going to

3102
03:01:46,600 --> 03:01:49,320
Speaker 1: wind up being the only long term solution. You know,

3103
03:01:49,360 --> 03:01:52,440
Speaker 1: It's kind of what people saw in Portland that you

3104
03:01:52,720 --> 03:01:54,800
Speaker 1: there's a there's a degree to which like the only

3105
03:01:54,920 --> 03:01:59,600
Speaker 1: thing that really works as a response is is outnumbering them. Yeah,

3106
03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:03,720
Speaker 1: on that note, it might be maybe not the smoothest transition.

3107
03:02:03,920 --> 03:02:06,960
Speaker 1: But there are actually some Autowa mutual Aid funds and

3108
03:02:07,120 --> 03:02:10,400
Speaker 1: then Advocate Secrets that are doing some some cool stuff.

3109
03:02:10,920 --> 03:02:14,120
Speaker 1: And there's there's too many of the list for everyone,

3110
03:02:15,240 --> 03:02:18,000
Speaker 1: but others have compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to

3111
03:02:18,000 --> 03:02:21,039
Speaker 1: you there so ROSE Ottawa, which stands for Rainbow Autowa

3112
03:02:21,080 --> 03:02:24,640
Speaker 1: Student Experience as there's two s l G B t

3113
03:02:24,879 --> 03:02:28,800
Speaker 1: q I A plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin

3114
03:02:29,360 --> 03:02:32,039
Speaker 1: on a Shnave territory. Though they have closed op donations

3115
03:02:32,120 --> 03:02:34,800
Speaker 1: for themselves following a wonderful spike recently. They have a

3116
03:02:34,879 --> 03:02:37,600
Speaker 1: list of black lead and black empowering organizations on their

3117
03:02:37,600 --> 03:02:39,720
Speaker 1: website with donation links and you can reach that at

3118
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:44,280
Speaker 1: Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh, there's a cool

3119
03:02:44,320 --> 03:02:47,400
Speaker 1: little Instagram account called transis Beautiful O T T O

3120
03:02:47,520 --> 03:02:49,440
Speaker 1: T T stands for Ottawa and that's all one word.

3121
03:02:49,720 --> 03:02:52,480
Speaker 1: It's been plugging small fundraisers for queer folks affected by

3122
03:02:52,480 --> 03:02:56,119
Speaker 1: the Convoy, including housing support on their Instagram. Again, that's

3123
03:02:56,200 --> 03:03:00,520
Speaker 1: transis Beautiful O T T on Instagram. Uh. Something we

3124
03:03:00,640 --> 03:03:03,760
Speaker 1: didn't get to talk about, which is ram Ranch Ram

3125
03:03:03,879 --> 03:03:06,600
Speaker 1: Ranch dot c A r A n dash Ranch dot

3126
03:03:06,720 --> 03:03:08,920
Speaker 1: c A a website was set up in the name

3127
03:03:08,959 --> 03:03:12,520
Speaker 1: of trolling the convoy zelo chats and has been doing

3128
03:03:12,680 --> 03:03:15,560
Speaker 1: a fantastic job about there's a whole army of trolls

3129
03:03:15,600 --> 03:03:19,280
Speaker 1: in the Trucker's elo chats and it's been really entertaining

3130
03:03:19,400 --> 03:03:22,160
Speaker 1: to tune into. They've compiled the list of charities on

3131
03:03:22,240 --> 03:03:24,600
Speaker 1: their website. You can check that out at ram dash

3132
03:03:24,800 --> 03:03:27,560
Speaker 1: Ranch dot c A and clicking on the Rancher's donation

3133
03:03:27,680 --> 03:03:32,760
Speaker 1: zone and yeah, where can where can people find you?

3134
03:03:32,959 --> 03:03:35,360
Speaker 1: On the Internet. People can find me on the Internet.

3135
03:03:35,440 --> 03:03:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm super active on Twitter at at spineless L where

3136
03:03:40,360 --> 03:03:47,640
Speaker 1: it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully, hopefully this

3137
03:03:47,959 --> 03:03:51,039
Speaker 1: gets all resolved and I don't need to fly up

3138
03:03:51,080 --> 03:03:54,760
Speaker 1: to Canada to go to a protest, and if if

3139
03:03:54,840 --> 03:03:56,400
Speaker 1: we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting to go

3140
03:03:56,480 --> 03:03:58,400
Speaker 1: to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can, we can?

3141
03:03:58,760 --> 03:04:03,280
Speaker 1: We can uh take drugs at to Morton's. Would Yeah? God,

3142
03:04:03,480 --> 03:04:06,279
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't vomited in a tim Horton's bathroom

3143
03:04:06,800 --> 03:04:11,080
Speaker 1: in a long time. Our local McDonald's that got famous

3144
03:04:11,160 --> 03:04:14,080
Speaker 1: on the internet for fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon

3145
03:04:14,160 --> 03:04:16,800
Speaker 1: out of their backpack during had to actually stop being

3146
03:04:16,840 --> 03:04:19,440
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after the mayor pleaded with them because

3147
03:04:19,480 --> 03:04:22,800
Speaker 1: it was using up too many police resources. That is

3148
03:04:22,840 --> 03:04:29,600
Speaker 1: the best kind of place in a year. That's so dope.

3149
03:04:29,800 --> 03:04:35,000
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, I wanna. I want to set up

3150
03:04:35,120 --> 03:04:37,960
Speaker 1: somewhere on the border in the East coast to tim Horton's,

3151
03:04:38,040 --> 03:04:40,760
Speaker 1: directly across the street from a waffle house and just

3152
03:04:40,959 --> 03:04:46,520
Speaker 1: let them fight. Well, yeah, we we do. We we

3153
03:04:46,600 --> 03:04:48,920
Speaker 1: do this. That here, that's that's you'll have to bring

3154
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Speaker 1: that for you have to bring that over, bring a

3155
03:04:50,320 --> 03:04:52,880
Speaker 1: waffle house fives over. All you need to do is

3156
03:04:52,920 --> 03:04:55,640
Speaker 1: watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually you're at

3157
03:04:55,680 --> 03:05:01,680
Speaker 1: a waffle house. That that ties back to the future

3158
03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:07,480
Speaker 1: of the convoy. You're right, well, that doesn't for us today, everybody,

3159
03:05:08,080 --> 03:05:22,920
Speaker 1: when people'll see you later. Hey, we'll be back Monday

3160
03:05:23,080 --> 03:05:25,959
Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat

3161
03:05:26,040 --> 03:05:28,560
Speaker 1: death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a

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Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool

3163
03:05:31,520 --> 03:05:34,119
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com

3164
03:05:34,320 --> 03:05:36,039
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

3165
03:05:36,040 --> 03:05:39,440
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3166
03:05:39,440 --> 03:05:42,160
Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

3167
03:05:42,160 --> 03:05:45,400
Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: The art world it is essentially a money laundering business.

3169
03:05:52,120 --> 03:05:54,680
Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You

3170
03:05:54,800 --> 03:05:57,959
Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes.

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Speaker 1: I'm Out Like Baldwin and is a podcast about deception, greed,

3172
03:06:03,320 --> 03:06:06,840
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. I just walked in

3173
03:06:07,040 --> 03:06:11,520
Speaker 1: and saw this bright red painting, presuming to be a

3174
03:06:11,600 --> 03:06:16,199
Speaker 1: Rothko of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money

3175
03:06:16,280 --> 03:06:19,640
Speaker 1: to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to

3176
03:06:20,000 --> 03:06:22,800
Speaker 1: what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible

3177
03:06:23,080 --> 03:06:27,400
Speaker 1: mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. UM.

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03:06:29,360 --> 03:06:32,680
Speaker 1: Listen to art fraud on the I Heart Radio app,

3179
03:06:32,720 --> 03:06:36,320
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.