Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing from iHeart Radio. It's summer and that means
Speaker 1: it's time for our tradition at Here's the Thing. Will
Speaker 1: the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in
Speaker 1: our Summer staff Picks series? Next up is producer Zach MacNeice.
Speaker 2: Thanks Alec. On January fifth of this year, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: on Alaska Airline's Boeing seven three seven Max nine made
Speaker 2: an emergency landing in Portland, Oregon after a piece of
Speaker 2: the fuselage blew out of the plane. Five days later,
Speaker 2: on January fourteenth, a Boeing seven three seven eight hundred
Speaker 2: was forced to turn around and land in Japan after
Speaker 2: a crack was found mid air on the cockpit window.
Speaker 2: On March seventh, a Boeing seven seven seven two hundred
Speaker 2: made an emergency landing in Los Angeles after attire fell
Speaker 2: off the plane during takeoff. And today, July thirty first,
Speaker 2: Boeing has named a new CEO, Robert Ortberg, after announcing
Speaker 2: a one point four billion dollar loss in the second
Speaker 2: quarter of the year. These are just a few of
Speaker 2: the many recent Boeing headlines In the past two and
Speaker 2: a half years since the release of Rory Kennedy's documentary Downfall,
Speaker 2: The Case against Boeing. Alex spoke with Rory in March
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty two, and I couldn't think of a
Speaker 2: better time to revisit this conversation about the film, The
Speaker 2: Great American Company and Rory Kennedy's incredible life as a
Speaker 2: documentary filmmaker.
Speaker 1: My guest today comes from the most legendary of American families.
Speaker 1: Rory Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F.
Speaker 1: Kennedy and the niece of President John F.
Speaker 3: Kennedy.
Speaker 1: But as she will tell us during our conversation, she's
Speaker 1: also one of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following
Speaker 1: her forbears into law or politics, Kennedy has made a
Speaker 1: name for herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature
Speaker 1: a wide range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton
Speaker 1: to challenging issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In
Speaker 1: her current film, she's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall
Speaker 1: the Case against Boeing, investigates the circumstances that led to
Speaker 1: two tragic passenger jet crashes. In twenty eighteen and nineteen,
Speaker 1: Rory Kennedy and I talk about her remarkable upbringing and
Speaker 1: how the people she's encountered in her life have influenced
Speaker 1: her trajectory.
Speaker 4: I think it's hard to detach anybody from how they
Speaker 4: grew up, right, I mean, that's such an influence and
Speaker 4: impact on who you become. And certainly that was the
Speaker 4: case with me.
Speaker 5: I grew up.
Speaker 4: The youngest of eleven and in an obviously a very
Speaker 4: political family, and I was impacted by that. I mean
Speaker 4: I was also surrounded, my mother made a point of
Speaker 4: this by really extraordinary role models, you know, when we
Speaker 4: had such a the honor of meeting, whether it was
Speaker 4: you know, presidents or congressmen and senators or people like
Speaker 4: Nelson Mittndela and Desmond Tutu, you know, who were in
Speaker 4: our homes, and also some of the great athletes and
Speaker 4: you know NASA astronauts.
Speaker 5: I mean, so, I think.
Speaker 4: It was a life where we were surrounded by people
Speaker 4: who created a sense of aspiration and to try to
Speaker 4: make the world a bit of a better place.
Speaker 1: Now, what would you say though, that, as you're making
Speaker 1: a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenets, whatever word
Speaker 1: you want to use, where you sit there and say
Speaker 1: that's not something I'm going to do that's influenced by
Speaker 1: the way your family's been treated. If you're making a
Speaker 1: film and let's say some aspect of a story, there's
Speaker 1: a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry to shy away from
Speaker 1: that is the way you guys have been attacked from
Speaker 1: time to time.
Speaker 4: I think I have certain sensitivities. For example, with Downfall,
Speaker 4: the case against Boeing, there's three hundred and forty six
Speaker 4: people who died, and there are the family members who
Speaker 4: are related to those people, some of whom we talked
Speaker 4: to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well,
Speaker 4: how is it going to be for these folks to
Speaker 4: watch this film right? And I've had to see scenes
Speaker 4: over and over again that play themselves out on the
Speaker 4: news that are very upsetting to watch about my family
Speaker 4: dying right and being killed, and I didn't want to
Speaker 4: subject them to that. But I also wanted to make
Speaker 4: a film that was impactful. We do cgi recreations of
Speaker 4: what it was like to be in the cockpit so
Speaker 4: that we could really help people understand the perspective of
Speaker 4: the pilots in these planes and what they were struggling
Speaker 4: with with the MCS system. And you know, but I thought,
Speaker 4: how are these folks going to watch this film? So
Speaker 4: when I sent the film to them before it's coming out,
Speaker 4: I highlighted all the sections that I thought would be
Speaker 4: hard for them to watch, so that they could be
Speaker 4: aware of that and go into it and decide to
Speaker 4: watch those sections or not. So, you know, maybe I
Speaker 4: have some sensitivity and moments like that. I think the
Speaker 4: types of films I choose generally tend to be political
Speaker 4: in nature and tend to you know, I hope when
Speaker 4: people watch these films, whether it's this or a film
Speaker 4: about Vietnam, the final days of the war, film about
Speaker 4: Abu Grabe, that we learned from them, and we learn
Speaker 4: from watching these stories and hopefully make better choices moving forward.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So, I think the choices of the films I make
Speaker 4: are certainly impacted by the family I grew up in.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you mentioned that, and this is only tangential,
Speaker 1: but remember being invited years ago Clinton was in.
Speaker 3: The White House.
Speaker 1: I was invited to the White House to a screening
Speaker 1: of the movie The Paper Howard, and I'm sitting in
Speaker 1: a seat in the theater and the woman to my
Speaker 1: right who's sitting next to me. A gun goes off
Speaker 1: in the middle of the film, and that woman grabbed
Speaker 1: my arm and gasped this huge gasp when the gun
Speaker 1: went off.
Speaker 5: It was your mom, right, So you know there's.
Speaker 3: Me to this day, it's she's not prepared for that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: those sounds.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's trauma related to that for sure.
Speaker 3: Now to get to the film.
Speaker 1: So I watched this film obviously, and I was mesmerized.
Speaker 1: Congratulations by the way. I mean, you came to the
Speaker 1: Hampton's Film Festival. Every year a film of yours comes
Speaker 1: and we all look at together and we're like, can
Speaker 1: we really invite her again? Do we bringing Rory down
Speaker 1: to Easthampton again? I mean, is it enough enough? I mean,
Speaker 1: how much more can we shine her up here? But
Speaker 1: we loved your film about your mom. We're gonna get
Speaker 1: to that later. I loved Last Days of Vietnam. That
Speaker 1: was a great I'm not just saying this, that's a
Speaker 1: great movie. Great movie. Really, just you what film can
Speaker 1: do in this period of what's happening and understanding that
Speaker 1: those moments that you did a great job and this
Speaker 1: film made me angry this film. I was pissed off
Speaker 1: because only one guy I think is criminally charged. Correct,
Speaker 1: that's correct, and that we identify that person, Mark Forkner.
Speaker 3: And he was in charge of what it is bowing.
Speaker 4: He was a pilot, a test pilot, and he was
Speaker 4: you know, he really wasn't responsible for what happened, and
Speaker 4: a lot of people feel like he was scapegoaded because
Speaker 4: he was really in charge of making sure, you know,
Speaker 4: he was testing the plane and then he played a
Speaker 4: role in keeping the MCS system away from the regulators.
Speaker 4: And that's documented and there's proof of that, and so
Speaker 4: they followed up with that. But you know, Congressman Defaisio,
Speaker 4: for example, led the congressional investigation into what happened, the
Speaker 4: biggest investigation the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history, and he
Speaker 4: concluded that this was really top down right, that the
Speaker 4: top group in management at Boeing was very aware of
Speaker 4: the MCS system, that there was a concerted effort to
Speaker 4: keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system,
Speaker 4: and to cut corners along the way, and that there
Speaker 4: was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is
Speaker 4: what he calls it. So I think that there are
Speaker 4: a lot of people who feel like the folks who
Speaker 4: are most responsible have yet to be held accountable. And
Speaker 4: there's been no criminal charges. And you know, Lallenberg walked
Speaker 4: away with the head of Boeing, the head of Boeing
Speaker 4: sixty sixty two million dollars. So, you know, I think
Speaker 4: after you've kind of watched the film and really understand
Speaker 4: all the decisions that the management at Boeing made along
Speaker 4: the way to prioritize profit over safety, that you know,
Speaker 4: when you understand the depths of those choices that I
Speaker 4: think many people like you are outraged.
Speaker 1: Well for people, I don't want to I want them
Speaker 1: to see the film obviously, but I want to give
Speaker 1: them just a taste of So Boeing wants to create
Speaker 1: I'll let you fill in the blank. So they want
Speaker 1: to create a fleet. They're losing market share, they're getting
Speaker 1: their hat handed to them by Airbus. Things are not
Speaker 1: looking good for Boeing, who had been dominant around the
Speaker 1: world for decades and then and were the pride of
Speaker 1: not just Seattle but the United States aviation industry, and
Speaker 1: then the things start to go down from so they
Speaker 1: want to play ketchup and they want to produce a
Speaker 1: lower cost, more fuel efficient I think was the goal
Speaker 1: of the seven seven thirty seven MAX. Got to get
Speaker 1: the word max and there the seven thirty seven fuel
Speaker 1: efficiency was the goal. And then a part of this
Speaker 1: was the development of this system which was to help
Speaker 1: to so they don't make too steep a climb.
Speaker 3: A system takes.
Speaker 1: Over the plane and lowers the nose of the plane
Speaker 1: and forces the plane down, but doesn't shut off. It
Speaker 1: forces the nose of the plane down straight into the ground.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's there were concern at a certain angle
Speaker 4: that the plane would stall, and so they instead of
Speaker 4: changing the kind of structure of the plane and moving
Speaker 4: the engines and whatnot, they decided to fix it with
Speaker 4: a computer system, again in an effort to save money,
Speaker 4: it seems, and that computer system was connected to one
Speaker 4: sensor on the side of the airplane like a weather vein,
Speaker 4: and so if that sensor was damaged, which happens off
Speaker 4: and gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it
Speaker 4: would send and this is what happened, erroneous information to
Speaker 4: the computer system. So it would tell the computer system
Speaker 4: that the plane was at a certain angle and you
Speaker 4: needed to push the nose down, but it wasn't at
Speaker 4: that angle. It was more at a flat angle, and
Speaker 4: not only would it push the nose of the plane down,
Speaker 4: but it would do it over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: Probably the most powering details you covered the film is
Speaker 1: and the pilots were not told about the installation of
Speaker 1: this system.
Speaker 4: That's correct, it's you know, prior to the Line air crash,
Speaker 4: which was the first crash, the pilots were completely unaware
Speaker 4: that the system was even on the airplane, which was
Speaker 4: also kind of flew in the face of what had
Speaker 4: been the normal relationship between Boeing and pilots, which was
Speaker 4: to really educate and form pilots about everything training, you know,
Speaker 4: make them fully equipped to handle any situation that would happen.
Speaker 4: But in this case they in an effort to really
Speaker 4: keep this from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is
Speaker 4: that if they have a totally new system on the airplane,
Speaker 4: then they have to train pilots. And if they have
Speaker 4: to train pilots, it cost them a million dollars per
Speaker 4: an aircraft, you know, on average to train these pilots.
Speaker 4: So they wanted to again it seems, save the money,
Speaker 4: and so instead of making people aware that this system
Speaker 4: was on the airplane. They made a concerted effort to we're.
Speaker 1: Not even going to tell you about this machine we've installed, which,
Speaker 1: if it behaves badly, is going to crash the plane. Yes,
Speaker 1: and there's a manual override that they might have been
Speaker 1: able to activate. They could have gotten out of it,
Speaker 1: I guess if they'd had the training.
Speaker 4: If they had had the training. Except what we also
Speaker 4: discover and showcase in the course of this film is
Speaker 4: a document that came out in twenty sixteen. It's called
Speaker 4: a coordination sheet that shows that if something went wrong
Speaker 4: with the system, that the pilots would need to fix
Speaker 4: it within ten seconds, otherwise the power of the MCS
Speaker 4: system would overtake them if they didn't do it in
Speaker 4: ten seconds, and.
Speaker 5: The results would be catastrophic.
Speaker 4: And catastrophic in airplane language means the plane will crash
Speaker 4: and everybody will die. So you know, even if the
Speaker 4: pilots right. So in the second instance, in the Ethiopian
Speaker 4: airplane crash, the pilots were aware of the system, they
Speaker 4: did everything right, they did what they were told to do,
Speaker 4: and the plane still crashed. So you know, if you
Speaker 4: don't and what you have to also remember, and this
Speaker 4: is why we also created the kind of the CGI
Speaker 4: recreation of what happens in that cockpit is there's this
Speaker 4: cacophony of sounds and error alerts that are all contradicting
Speaker 4: each other that the pilots are trying to understand and
Speaker 4: navigate and figure out. Okay, this is thing where you know,
Speaker 4: the altitude is in disagreement, the air speed is in disagreement,
Speaker 4: the all systems alert is on the stickshaker is going,
Speaker 4: there's all of these alerts coming at them, and then
Speaker 4: with that they have to navigate. Okay, well, what this
Speaker 4: all means is that I need to do these steps
Speaker 4: within ten seconds and otherwise this plane is going to crash.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't want to go on a plane
Speaker 4: that is putting pilots in that position. I don't want
Speaker 4: to put my children.
Speaker 1: Or fa people are whose job who'd give anything to
Speaker 1: save the lives of their passengers. Think of something more
Speaker 1: unimaginable than to be on the in the cockpit of
Speaker 1: a plane and the plane is behaving and not in
Speaker 1: some anomalous way. You see yourself hurtling towards the ground.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, nine to eleven. You're the planes going into
Speaker 1: the ground and you're sitting there thinking what can you
Speaker 1: and you don't know what to do?
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, it's completely funny. You know, maybe they're eating
Speaker 5: a turkey sandwich.
Speaker 4: You know, it does not like you're not there sitting
Speaker 4: there on total alert for the entire plane ride.
Speaker 1: Well, before we get into the macro of your filmmaking,
Speaker 1: one more thing. I think you make it clear in
Speaker 1: the film the idea that this is a different Boeing.
Speaker 1: At this point, I thought it was fascinating how you
Speaker 1: talk about the move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters
Speaker 1: to Chicago for the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence, and.
Speaker 3: I thought it was well that the influence was good.
Speaker 3: It was a nice battery.
Speaker 1: It was a nice exchange between Union's management, design, technology,
Speaker 1: and the corporate And these guys are like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: we don't want to be too close to those guys
Speaker 1: in Seattle. So we're going to move to Chicago so
Speaker 1: we can make our decisions in this bubble in Chicago.
Speaker 1: And it seems like what was a great company that rare,
Speaker 1: I mean, multi billion dollar enterprise. It made big, expensive
Speaker 1: things that they were very proud of that defined the city,
Speaker 1: and everything moves to Chicago, and it seems like that's
Speaker 1: part of the problem was once that merger was made
Speaker 1: and they moved to Chicago, that cost cutting thing becomes primary.
Speaker 5: I think that's right, you know.
Speaker 4: I think, like you, I love Boeing and what Boeing
Speaker 4: stood for in this country, and you know the history
Speaker 4: of Boeing, and we really celebrate that in the film
Speaker 4: because it's been an extraordinary company for decades. You know,
Speaker 4: it helped us get out of World War Two. It
Speaker 4: helped build the fighter jets to win that war. It
Speaker 4: helped get us.
Speaker 5: To the moon with my uncle Jack.
Speaker 4: I mean, they helped build those engines in the rocket chips.
Speaker 4: They helped people be able to travel all over the
Speaker 4: world for the first time, you know, with the seven
Speaker 4: forty seven and extraordinary accomplishment. So we wanted to celebrate that.
Speaker 4: And during those very early years and for many decades,
Speaker 4: Boeing did one thing, which was to say, we're going
Speaker 4: to prioritize excellence and safety and then the profits will follow.
Speaker 4: We're going to make the best planes possible, We're going
Speaker 4: to innovate, we're going to do new things and we're
Speaker 4: going to think to the future. And then it changed hands,
Speaker 4: taken over really. I mean, one person we interviewed said
Speaker 4: somehow McDonald douglas bought Boeing with Boeing's money and the
Speaker 4: McDonald douglas people were put in charge, and they had
Speaker 4: a very different business model, which was very Wall Street
Speaker 4: focused and quarterly earnings, you know, And so they made
Speaker 4: a series of decision corporate decisions to cut back on
Speaker 4: personnel who's whose job it was to ensure safety and
Speaker 4: put pressure on the folks who are building the planes
Speaker 4: to build them quicker and faster, and when people would
Speaker 4: complain about safety, that slows that process down.
Speaker 1: Documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy. If you enjoy conversations about the
Speaker 1: making of documentary films, check out my episode with British
Speaker 1: filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her documentary Bring Your Own Brigade is
Speaker 1: an in depth look at California wildfires and their effect
Speaker 1: on local residents.
Speaker 6: What I want to understand is, well, how are we
Speaker 6: stopping it and why are people living in these areas
Speaker 6: and building these houses that burn over and over and
Speaker 6: over again. Could we do better? So you would think
Speaker 6: that when people look at developing an area for housing.
Speaker 6: They would think about far safety, but nobody's actually thinking about,
Speaker 6: well are they going to be able to ensure these
Speaker 6: homes and who's going to pay if these homes burn down.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory
Speaker 1: Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her
Speaker 1: work has earned an Emmy and several Oscar nominations along
Speaker 1: the way. I wanted her to share some of her
Speaker 1: process as a filmmaker.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, different people and companies work in different ways.
Speaker 4: I'm very hands on as a filmmaker, and I you know,
Speaker 4: I love to be doing all the interviews and being
Speaker 4: in the edit room, and so I don't take on
Speaker 4: a huge number of projects at any given time. And
Speaker 4: usually when I decide that I really want to do
Speaker 4: a particular project, I really try to make it happen.
Speaker 4: I was really committed. I felt like this story was
Speaker 4: so important, the downfall story. I think, like so many
Speaker 4: other people, I witnessed these two airplanes crashing within five
Speaker 4: months of each other, the exact same aircraft. Three hundred
Speaker 4: and forty six people died. And you know, I, like
Speaker 4: so many other people, fly right, and I felt like,
Speaker 4: I want to know what happened, who knew what when,
Speaker 4: who is responsible for this? And I want to make
Speaker 4: sure that something like this doesn't happen again. But I
Speaker 4: also felt that, you know, during the last decades that
Speaker 4: America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right, And so
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 5: This film than usual.
Speaker 4: I think this film, I hope, rises to something that's
Speaker 4: not just about these crashes, which is, you know, as
Speaker 4: meaningful as it gets. But I think it touches on
Speaker 4: something else, which is the need to regulate, the need
Speaker 4: to balance out corporate interests making money, making money, making money,
Speaker 4: and the need to balance out with public interest right.
Speaker 4: And we've seen corporations like Boeing balances for many decades
Speaker 4: and do fantastically well. And I think that when that
Speaker 4: gets out of balance, it hurts everybody.
Speaker 3: So when you see.
Speaker 1: Someone like Defasio, the head of the committee, the guy
Speaker 1: that was the leading light there in the Congress. Did
Speaker 1: he have as much integrity overall as it appears to
Speaker 1: be on screen.
Speaker 3: He's fantastic because you know as well as I do.
Speaker 1: You know, where are people in government who care enough
Speaker 1: and they want to fight the way we're going. Like
Speaker 1: Boeing was a company, you say, well, you understand, you
Speaker 1: want people to make money and make profits. Boeing was
Speaker 1: doing quite well before. Sure they had a slump when
Speaker 1: Douglas took over. But what you find is not only
Speaker 1: do people want to make money, they want to make
Speaker 1: obscene amounts of money. They want to make an amount
Speaker 1: of money that they're looking at you like you're a child, like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, now, calm down, sunny, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of money at stake here for us who run and
Speaker 1: own the company.
Speaker 3: And my point is is that for me, I'm always
Speaker 3: so sad.
Speaker 1: I'm always so impacted by government officials who don't have
Speaker 1: the guts to do their job, and the government's job
Speaker 1: is to I mean, I watched people in testimony in
Speaker 1: hearings and I think to myself, thank God I'm not there,
Speaker 1: because I would be looking at the heads of car
Speaker 1: companies or ol companies going you don't get it. You
Speaker 1: come here, you answer our questions on behalf of the
Speaker 1: American people. We have the authority, and I feel like
Speaker 1: that authority is not always employed effectively. You said de
Speaker 1: Fassio did.
Speaker 3: A good job.
Speaker 4: He's amazing. I mean he and his heart was so
Speaker 4: in the right place. But he was also dogged and
Speaker 4: he held these folks accountable. And you know when you
Speaker 4: see him in those congressional testimonies and chasing down every
Speaker 4: single document and you know, putting this report together, which
Speaker 4: took years in the making and is incredibly thorough. They
Speaker 4: go after Bowing and they hold them accountable, and they're
Speaker 4: continuing to go after Boeing.
Speaker 5: So I think there are.
Speaker 4: A lot of extraordinary heroes who are celebrated who are
Speaker 4: really on the front lines of this, whether it's Defasio
Speaker 4: or Michael Stumo, who's the father of Samuel Stumo who
Speaker 4: died in the Ethiopian plane crash and turned from a
Speaker 4: victim to really an advocate. And he I mean, I
Speaker 4: just got off the phone with him yesterday and he
Speaker 4: he's not giving up on this. I mean, Boeing's thrown
Speaker 4: a lot of money at these families to get them
Speaker 4: to be quiet, and he is not going to be silenced,
Speaker 4: and he is continuing to you know, spread the message
Speaker 4: that he has very continued concerns about the safety of
Speaker 4: the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven eighty seven Dreamliner.
Speaker 4: They just announced yesterday the FAA that I mean as
Speaker 4: though this should be news, but that the FAA is
Speaker 4: going to actually regulate bowing and not let Boeing regulations regulating.
Speaker 1: So, you know, point to watch the film because that's
Speaker 1: another interesting point about how when I was studying government
Speaker 1: at GW in the seventies, when I went down to
Speaker 1: Washington to go to school, and we talked about that,
Speaker 1: and we talked about how, you know, departmentalization, how people
Speaker 1: are in these departments, like presidents come and go. We're
Speaker 1: here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so here
Speaker 1: at the FA we have our own relationships with eight
Speaker 1: with airline companies, and they allowed Boeing to self regulate
Speaker 1: and self inspect.
Speaker 4: I do think you're right that there's they're not enough
Speaker 4: people in government who are advocating. But I guess my
Speaker 4: point is is that in this film, you show a
Speaker 4: world where advocacy comes from a lot of different perspective.
Speaker 4: It comes from the government officials doing the right thing
Speaker 4: in this case, Defasio. It also comes from you know,
Speaker 4: people who don't think of themselves as advocates but turn
Speaker 4: into ad before it's as a result. And then you
Speaker 4: know Andy p Store, who's a dogged journalist who chases
Speaker 4: down the story and gets us the information. And it's
Speaker 4: the combination of all of those people who come together,
Speaker 4: and you know, the storytellers, right, So I'm not putting
Speaker 4: myself in that category, but we also have to you know,
Speaker 4: the Lucy Walkers and yourself, the people who are packaging
Speaker 4: these stories and getting them out in the way this
Speaker 4: audience digestible to an audience, and so that that translates
Speaker 4: hopefully into creating a better world.
Speaker 1: I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come
Speaker 1: to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip tick
Speaker 1: primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest
Speaker 1: things in the world you've ever seen in your life,
Speaker 1: Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting
Speaker 1: on bails of hay, saying America, we know what it's
Speaker 1: got to do. And then you cut to your uncle
Speaker 1: walking with his wife in your room. For the people
Speaker 1: and people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles
Speaker 1: concert or who's going to win the primary.
Speaker 3: Who were your influences in your filmmaking.
Speaker 4: Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I mean an extraordinary filmmaker.
Speaker 4: Penny Baker was a huge influence on me as well.
Speaker 4: Barbara Kopple, who you know. The first documentary feature I
Speaker 4: made was American Hollow, which was about a family in
Speaker 4: eastern Kentucky, and it was really an extraordinary story of
Speaker 4: a woman who had thirteen kids and they all lived
Speaker 4: off the land, and we kind of spent a year
Speaker 4: with them. Certainly influenced by Barbara and her extraordinary work
Speaker 4: in Kentucky and Appalachia. So, you know, I think those
Speaker 4: early veritay filmmakers have huge influence on the world of
Speaker 4: filmmaking today. And then they're just you know, there's just
Speaker 4: a flew of incredible filmmakers who are colleagues of mine.
Speaker 4: You know Lucy Wallerker you mentioned, I think she's a
Speaker 4: fantastic filmmaker. My old partner Liz Garbis, is fantastic. Together
Speaker 4: to the company, we're not still together as a company,
Speaker 4: but we remain very good friends and advocates for each other.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's fantastic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, gosh, your so knowledge well, Amy Berg is fantastic.
Speaker 5: RJ.
Speaker 4: Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean there's just Don Porter. I
Speaker 4: think that we're surrounded by really talented filmmakers, and I
Speaker 4: think there's I think we've all also been influenced, you know.
Speaker 4: I think this verite influence has impacted the kinds of
Speaker 4: work that we do. But I think we're also influenced
Speaker 4: by Hollywood and the films that we're seeing, the narrative
Speaker 4: films and the dramatic storytelling, so that we're making films
Speaker 4: that keep you a little bit more at the edge
Speaker 4: of your seat of what's going to happen next, you know,
Speaker 4: and really pull you into the characters and and and
Speaker 4: to the plot, to you know, the storytelling. I think
Speaker 4: it's very sophisticated these days. I think, you know, you
Speaker 4: see it out in the world, and you know, when
Speaker 4: you turn on your Netflix account, it's a mix up there.
Speaker 4: It's not like, here's the narratives and then go down
Speaker 4: deep into your Netflix account to find the documentaries. They're
Speaker 4: up center, you know, because people are watching them and
Speaker 4: there they're pulled in and I think it's.
Speaker 5: Because they're really great storytellers.
Speaker 1: Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Rory Kennedy talks about the film
Speaker 1: of hers that was the hardest for her to make.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: The Kennedy family has made history, and most of that
Speaker 1: while occupying a path from Hyanna Sport, Massachusetts, down to McLean, Virginia,
Speaker 1: and yet Rory somehow landed in California.
Speaker 4: Well, my husband Mark, as you know, as a screenwriter
Speaker 4: and a writer, and he is also my partner in
Speaker 4: writing documentaries, but he has other writing that draws him
Speaker 4: out there. So we decided we'd go out there for
Speaker 4: a couple of years because at that time, ten or
Speaker 4: twelve years ago, the kind of independent film world was
Speaker 4: fizzling out here in New York and was sort of
Speaker 4: pivoting over the West Coast.
Speaker 5: We fell in love with California.
Speaker 3: Your brother moves that I talked to him on Find
Speaker 3: I Go how do you look. He goes, it's great.
Speaker 3: I go, oh god, no, no, I said.
Speaker 5: Not you not, you come on out?
Speaker 1: I said, you're you're going out there? I said, I
Speaker 1: think Cheryl's great, but there's a lot of other women
Speaker 1: out there for you, Bob. And he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be living out there in California, and he loves it.
Speaker 5: He came out there with his EMU, his bird.
Speaker 4: I remember he was trying to figure out a way
Speaker 4: to get the bird out there, and I said, well,
Speaker 4: you know, I maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that
Speaker 4: HBO plane. So he called Richard and he said, can
Speaker 4: I bring my Can you take my bird out? But
Speaker 4: he failed to mention that the bird was six feet
Speaker 4: high and needed to go with Richard anyway.
Speaker 5: So he said order the bird.
Speaker 4: Came out and then Bobby didn't have a house for
Speaker 4: the first couple of weeks, so the bird lived at
Speaker 4: my house with Mark Nde blueberries and anyway. There are
Speaker 4: lots of stories to tell about Toby the bird.
Speaker 3: And he loves California no too, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he loves he loves it out there.
Speaker 1: Now, you did the movie about your mom, and of
Speaker 1: course you make a little joke there, But how difficult
Speaker 1: it was to recruit your mom?
Speaker 4: Yes, she.
Speaker 1: Was not, she was not a willing subject to be filmed. No,
Speaker 1: but eventually she's set down.
Speaker 4: My siblings were very difficult too, by the way. Really well, yes,
Speaker 4: they just didn't make it easy.
Speaker 3: They're busy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, they just wanted to make it difficult for me,
Speaker 4: because why would it Why would they make it easy
Speaker 4: when they don't have to know? They were all fantastic,
Speaker 4: and including my mother, and they they did answer ultimately
Speaker 4: all the questions I asked them. And my mother, I
Speaker 4: was just with her yesterday I played backham and with her,
Speaker 4: and I mean I was just I was winning the
Speaker 4: whole game. My dice were so much better. I played brilliantly,
Speaker 4: and then she beat me again. She's ninety four. I
Speaker 4: cannot beat that woman playing backham and I'm not a
Speaker 4: bad vackham and player.
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: Your mother also, And you know this infly better than
Speaker 1: I do. She just in her own wonderful way and
Speaker 1: in a truly in a truly marvelous way, she just
Speaker 1: doesn't suffer fools at all. And we're playing golf up
Speaker 1: there at the golf tournament, and she says to me,
Speaker 1: coming golf with me. You're you're gonna be with me,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be with Frank and so and so
Speaker 1: and so. And I go, I said, I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1: I said, you have to really understand it's important. Could
Speaker 1: this I've crossed this with this juncture before, I said,
Speaker 1: I'm a miserable golfer.
Speaker 3: Oh, of course you can hit a golf ball. Come on,
Speaker 3: come on you.
Speaker 1: I said, no, no, I don't think you really understand. I
Speaker 1: need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: please with this is non sets. Come on, you're to
Speaker 1: come with me. You're gonna play with me and Frank
Speaker 1: and I. As is always the case, I am scared
Speaker 1: to do so. I do fairly well. I can drive
Speaker 1: the ball. I could I get lucky with the irons.
Speaker 1: I can put I can drive iron some terrible We
Speaker 1: get to the second of me the third hold your
Speaker 1: other t She goes, you're right, you really can golf?
Speaker 1: Can you?
Speaker 5: Did you shake you off your tea?
Speaker 4: Get?
Speaker 3: Could we get lou in here?
Speaker 4: Someone?
Speaker 3: Where's the ringer that was following us to fill in
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: Now, one thing I noticed when I worked with the
Speaker 1: Kunstler sisters who did disturbing in the Universe about their father,
Speaker 1: William Kunstler, And when I was talking to them, it
Speaker 1: was I kind of knew this, but it was brought
Speaker 1: into sharper focus from me.
Speaker 3: The cost.
Speaker 1: I mean, they told me that they were trying to
Speaker 1: retire a debt of like forty thousand, fifty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: of debt they owed for archival footage from NBC and
Speaker 1: other network news organizations. Is that true for you as well?
Speaker 1: Meaning do you find these costs or just I mean,
Speaker 1: because I have one belief that old network news organizations
Speaker 1: the material should be made free under fair use.
Speaker 3: These are public airways.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it is.
Speaker 4: It can be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean,
Speaker 4: we're lucky enough with this film that it was. It
Speaker 4: was fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us,
Speaker 4: so we're not dead on it. But it can really
Speaker 4: make or break a lot of terrific documentaries out there.
Speaker 4: I think more people are leaning into fair use, but
Speaker 4: there has been a few instances of backlash against that
Speaker 4: where people chase them down and demand being paid you know,
Speaker 4: particularly for these historical documentaries, it's a real cost.
Speaker 1: It's like people who when I was working more consistently
Speaker 1: on the issue of campaign financial form with creative coalition
Speaker 1: organizations I worked with years ago in the ninety is,
Speaker 1: from disparate sources, we learned that one of the great
Speaker 1: enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of
Speaker 1: Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone
Speaker 1: said to me there are stations in this country that
Speaker 1: make seventy percent of their annual budget during one election cycle, right,
Speaker 1: and selling political advertising. They do not want to take
Speaker 1: the money out of politics, and the NAB, the National
Speaker 1: Association BOK is constantly finding campaign finance law changes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, listen, I so appreciate your work in that air
Speaker 4: area too, because I think, you know, when just circling
Speaker 4: back to your point about you know, who are these
Speaker 4: leaders now like Defasio who are advocating for us. I
Speaker 4: think it's it's hard, given the system that we have
Speaker 4: to really produce and encourage people who are in it
Speaker 4: exclusively for the public interest, right, I mean, that's those
Speaker 4: are the types of people who you want to be
Speaker 4: driven to politics, as people who are going to make
Speaker 4: the world a better place, but instead they're often driven
Speaker 4: there because of money, and that's not really the reason
Speaker 4: you want people ultimately in that position. So I think
Speaker 4: there's a lot still to be done, obviously with campaign
Speaker 4: finance reform in this country.
Speaker 1: Which film for you was the most difficult to put
Speaker 1: together as a film? What was the biggest challenge?
Speaker 4: Well, I think the hardest one for me was ethel
Speaker 4: you know, the stakes were so high and it was
Speaker 4: so deeply personal. You know, I had to look through
Speaker 4: lots of footage. We're talking about archive footage, you know,
Speaker 4: some of which was extraordinary and beautiful and so fun
Speaker 4: to see and just you know, gave me a depth
Speaker 4: of understanding of my family and my father, who I
Speaker 4: never met, you know, just watching him in this footage
Speaker 4: and a lot of footage has never been seen before
Speaker 4: was a really beautiful experience for me. But it was
Speaker 4: also emotionally challenging and difficult, and I you know, I
Speaker 4: wanted to ultimately make a film that showed, you know,
Speaker 4: the challenges and the difficulties that my mother in particular
Speaker 4: went through and.
Speaker 5: Faced, but also.
Speaker 4: You know, to celebrate her because I think that for
Speaker 4: so many people in our family with they focus on
Speaker 4: Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy, but there's not
Speaker 4: as much focus on the women, right and there. You know,
Speaker 4: my aunt units started the Special Olympic. She's contributed enormously,
Speaker 4: but she hasn't quite gotten that same level of attention
Speaker 4: and Nora has my mother and so many people when
Speaker 4: they introduce me, they say, oh, this is Robert Kennedy's daughter,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, well, my mother actually raised me, and
Speaker 4: you know, she played a pretty big part in like
Speaker 4: who I am. So part of it was like, I
Speaker 4: think she deserves the spotlight at least for a moment, like,
Speaker 4: at least to be understood, Yeah, and to help people
Speaker 4: understand her contribution because she was also her nature was
Speaker 4: to kind of stand behind and not you know, be
Speaker 4: the one on the microphone and be the one sort
Speaker 4: of at the front line. So anyway, I think just
Speaker 4: for me personally, the stakes were higher on that one
Speaker 4: and it was more challenging for me.
Speaker 3: What are you working on next?
Speaker 4: I'm working on a couple projects. I've got another film
Speaker 4: with Netflix that is about a volcanic eruption that I'm
Speaker 4: doing right now. And then I've got a film about
Speaker 4: the global refugee crisis that's a big light. Yes, these
Speaker 4: are the main ones I'm focused on, and I'm very
Speaker 4: excited to, you know, have this film coming out on
Speaker 4: Netflix and committed to getting as many eyes on it
Speaker 4: as possible.
Speaker 1: Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in twenty fourteen. How
Speaker 1: many of these films Ethel was in twenty twelve. I
Speaker 1: can't believe that.
Speaker 3: But of these last films, have most of them been
Speaker 3: with Netflix?
Speaker 4: Now, this is my first film that I've directed with Netflix.
Speaker 4: Last Is was with PBF, a Etho was with HBO,
Speaker 4: did a film about Naso with the Discovery Channel.
Speaker 5: Let me just.
Speaker 4: Say, Alec that I have such an admiration and respect
Speaker 4: for you. You're such a talented artist, and you've always
Speaker 4: committed yourself to making the world a better place, and
Speaker 4: you have such a love for people and a heart
Speaker 4: that is more open and more generous than anybody I know.
Speaker 4: And I just have such deep admiration.
Speaker 5: And respect for you.
Speaker 3: I love for your mom.
Speaker 4: II.
Speaker 5: Will you take care?
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Rory Kennedy.
Speaker 1: Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is available now
Speaker 1: on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice,
Speaker 1: and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperio. Here's the
Speaker 1: thing that is brought to you by iHeart Radio