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Speaker 1: Hey y'all, today we have the one and only Patti

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Speaker 1: Smith on the show. Patti's the prototypical downtown New York

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Speaker 1: City artist. Her 1975 debut album Horses is credited as

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Speaker 1: one of the masterpieces of its time. It also cemented

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Speaker 1: her as one of rock and roll's great lyricists. But

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Speaker 1: her writing extends far beyond music. Her 2010 memoir, Just Kids,

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Speaker 1: won the National Book Award for its brilliant portrayal of

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Speaker 1: the late 60s bohemian art scene in New York and

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Speaker 1: Patti's experience living in the Chelsea Hotel with famed photographer

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Speaker 1: Robert Mapplethorpe. During those years, Patti hung out with Andy

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Speaker 1: Warhol at the factory and was mentored by great writers

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Speaker 1: like William S. Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg. Today, Patti publishes

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Speaker 1: near daily offerings of poems, songs, and serialized fiction on

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Speaker 1: her sub stack. It's a journal of sorts that she

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Speaker 1: started during the solitary days of the pandemic. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell talks to Patti Smith about her writing in

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Speaker 1: the studio Jimi Hendrix built, Electric Lady. It was there,

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Speaker 1: she tells Malcolm, that she met Hendrix in 1970, just

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Speaker 1: weeks before he passed. She also talks about hanging out

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Speaker 1: with and writing lyrics for Janis Joplin. And she recalls

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Speaker 1: the fun that she had during a failed attempt to

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Speaker 1: cover Adele in concert. This is Broken Record, liner notes

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Speaker 1: for the digital age. I'm Justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell

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Speaker 1: and Patti Smith.

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Speaker 2: Patti, thank you for joining us on Broken Record.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: We are here in Electric Lady Studios, a place that

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Speaker 2: you have a special relationship to. And little bits of

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Speaker 2: you are all around this place, I noticed as I

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Speaker 2: came in. When did you first come here? What is

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Speaker 2: your history with Electric Lady?

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Speaker 4: Well, my very first time I came was Jimmy's opening party,

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Speaker 4: which I think is August 26, 1970.

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Speaker 2: Jimi Hendrix.

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Speaker 4: Jimi Hendrix had a party to open it, and I

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Speaker 4: was writing record reviews and things at the time, and

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Speaker 4: I was invited. So I was very excited because he

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Speaker 4: was one of my favorite artists. And I came, but

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Speaker 4: I wasn't used to going to high-profile parties. And so

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Speaker 4: I wound up sitting on the steps and just watching

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Speaker 4: people go back and forth because I just didn't have

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Speaker 4: the nerve to go in. And Jimmy had to leave

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Speaker 4: the party early. I think he had a flight. He

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Speaker 4: was going to the Isle of Wight. And he had

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Speaker 4: that big festival. He was going to London in any event.

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Speaker 4: And he saw me sitting on the steps. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this was 1970. I was, you know, I had a

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Speaker 4: certain look, you know, I was probably appealing in a

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Speaker 4: certain way. And he laughed and he said, you're not going,

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Speaker 4: he had that really, that soft voice, not going to

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Speaker 4: the party, you know, I can't do it. And I said, well,

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Speaker 4: I'm a little shy. And he said, and he told

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Speaker 4: me he was shy too. He said, actually, people didn't

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Speaker 4: understand that about him, but he was shy. And he

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Speaker 4: said it was interesting how you could be such an

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Speaker 4: aggressive performer yet still be shy around people. And he

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Speaker 4: told me that he was going to go and do

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Speaker 4: these shows, a handful of shows. And then he was

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Speaker 4: going to come back, go to Woodstock and gather musicians

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Speaker 4: from all over the world and then have them sit

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Speaker 4: in a circle and and play, just like Ornette Coleman is,

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Speaker 4: you know, a dicophonist or whatever, out of tune, different keys,

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Speaker 4: instruments that didn't normally go together, meld together, play and

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Speaker 4: play and play till they connected and found a common language.

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Speaker 4: And to him, that would be the language of peace.

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Speaker 4: And then he left. And of course, we never saw

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Speaker 4: him again. He died in London. only maybe a couple

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Speaker 4: weeks later, a few weeks later, I think, which was heartbreaking.

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Speaker 4: So that was my introduction to Electric Ladies Studios. I

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Speaker 4: didn't even have the nerve to come inside and never

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Speaker 4: dreamed that I would one day be recording because I

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Speaker 4: was working in a bookstore and writing reviews. But subsequently,

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Speaker 4: I recorded my first independent single, Piss Factory, Horses here,

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Speaker 4: and just a plethora of other albums. Over half my

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Speaker 4: albums I've recorded here, including my last album. So it's

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Speaker 4: become quite a home for me. And in terms of

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Speaker 4: you mentioning bits and pieces of me here, you can't

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Speaker 4: imagine what an honor it is still, after all these years,

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Speaker 4: to walk in here and see Horses on the Wall,

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Speaker 4: other pictures on the wall, It means a great deal

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Speaker 4: to me.

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Speaker 2: When you came in, you were pointing at a collage

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Speaker 2: on the wall. That's not yours, is it?

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Speaker 4: No, the collage is just part of the art that

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Speaker 4: was here. If you go in the bathroom, have you

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Speaker 4: gone to the bathroom here yet?

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Speaker 3: It's decoupage.

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Speaker 4: And it's the same. All the art is the same.

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Speaker 4: All these murals were here when the studio opened. Jimmy

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Speaker 4: commissioned all of these murals. And the bathrooms, the lady

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Speaker 4: and men's room, are all decoupage, which was very It

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Speaker 4: was a very late 60s thing. And, you know, varnished,

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Speaker 4: lots of collage material varnished over. And that is probably

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Speaker 4: a piece of artwork that was in one of the offices.

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Speaker 4: But you have to go in the bathroom before you leave.

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Speaker 2: I will be sure to. But who else was at

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Speaker 2: the party?

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Speaker 3: Do you remember?

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Speaker 4: No, because I was, I mean, probably Eddie Kramer. And,

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Speaker 4: you know, I didn't know any of these people.

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Speaker 3: As I said, I.

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Speaker 4: I was working in a bookstore and I knew a

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Speaker 4: handful of people. I knew some writers from Max's Kansas

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Speaker 4: City or had met Lou Reed and a few people. But,

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Speaker 4: you know, these were like probably, you know, maybe there

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Speaker 4: were a lot of celebrities or models or producers, but

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Speaker 4: it wasn't part of my world. So I only cared

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Speaker 4: about Jimi Hendrix. So I don't know who else was

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Speaker 4: at the party.

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Speaker 2: At that point, you'd been in New York for how long?

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Speaker 4: I came to New York in 1967, July of 1967,

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Speaker 4: so like a couple of years. But I went to Brooklyn.

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Speaker 4: I moved to Brooklyn with Robert Mapplethorpe, and then we

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Speaker 4: moved to the Chelsea Hotel in August of 69. So

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Speaker 4: this was a year later. So I was still quite

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Speaker 4: the fledgling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to come back to that period, but

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Speaker 2: I want to do this little exercise first, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, as I— look back on your career, it's

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Speaker 2: unusual in many respects, but one of the things that's

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Speaker 2: most unusual about it is it's like, it's really kind of,

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Speaker 2: you can give me the exact number, it's really four

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Speaker 2: or five different lives.

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Speaker 3: It's a few, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I want you to go through your, tell me all

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Speaker 2: the Patti Smith lives.

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Speaker 4: Well, funny enough, I'm writing a book about that. So,

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Speaker 4: but I can, I mean, in terms of my public life,

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Speaker 4: my public life started quite slowly and 1971, I did,

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Speaker 4: you know, I came to New York, really, I wanted

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Speaker 4: to be an artist, a visual artist. And really, I

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Speaker 4: felt like language for some reason, I was also writing

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Speaker 4: a lot of poetry and poetry really sort of eclipsed

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Speaker 4: the visual arts. So I really dedicated myself to poetry

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Speaker 4: in the late 60s and early 70s.

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Speaker 3: And I was working in a bookstore.

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Speaker 4: So I would say, That period of my life from

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Speaker 4: 67 to 75 was really devoted to writing poetry, starting

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Speaker 4: to perform publicly, and of course being greatly influenced and

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Speaker 4: shepherded by Robert Mapplethorpe and then Sam Shepard. These formative

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Speaker 4: years that I had, I was very lucky to have

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Speaker 4: so many good teachers and You know, in breaking my

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Speaker 4: life up, I would say that period from 67 to

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Speaker 4: 75 was my university.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was friends with William Burroughs.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: You've skipped?

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Speaker 3: Childhood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Life number one is— I'm not going through that with you.

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Speaker 2: No, no, we don't have to go through it. I'm

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Speaker 2: just saying part one is pre-New York.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, part one is pre-New York, but in terms of

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Speaker 4: the work that I do— Yeah. it would really start

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Speaker 4: when I came to New York. Because when I came

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Speaker 4: to New York, I was 20. I was excited about everything.

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Speaker 4: I was well-read. I had a good work ethic in

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Speaker 4: terms of writing and doing jobs. You know, I've been

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Speaker 4: working since I was about 14, whether in factories or

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Speaker 4: picking blueberries or working in bookstores. So in 1967, when

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Speaker 4: I came to New York and met Robert, That was

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Speaker 4: when I really, along with him, made a vow to,

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Speaker 4: you know, pretty much to art. Art being all the

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Speaker 4: fields of art. But I was, I became much more

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Speaker 4: devoted to poetry. And that period was really my learning period.

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Speaker 4: I met a lot of people who helped me along,

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Speaker 4: encouraged me, bought Newworth encouraged me to write lyrics. Jim

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Speaker 4: Carroll to write poetry. I was so lucky to know

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Speaker 4: William Burroughs and Gregory Corso and Allen Ginsberg. And not

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Speaker 4: just as friends, but teachers. They looked at my work.

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Speaker 4: They encouraged me. They invited me to read with them.

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Speaker 4: and to be somewhat part of their world.

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Speaker 2: Were you meeting these people?

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Speaker 4: In the lobby of the Chelsea Hotel, mostly. I mean,

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Speaker 4: back then, Robert and I moved there in 69, and

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Speaker 4: there was the El Quixote bar next door to it,

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Speaker 4: and they all went there. I mean, I didn't really drink,

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Speaker 4: but they all went there. So you could go and

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Speaker 4: sit in the bar and sit next to Carl Solomon

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Speaker 4: or Terry Southern and William, and I had a big

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Speaker 4: crush on William, so... you know, we became friends. But

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Speaker 4: back then, everybody was around. You know, there wasn't the

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Speaker 4: same cult of celebrity. It was just like in the Chelsea,

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Speaker 4: I was living there. And so was Janis Joplin living

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Speaker 4: there for a while. Only we all dressed the same.

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Speaker 4: We all listened to the same music. They were a

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Speaker 4: couple years older than me, some of these people. But

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Speaker 4: we were of the same mindset. And yeah, some of

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Speaker 4: them are real well-known, but we all commingled. And, uh,

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Speaker 4: cause every, all of us were like, as I would say,

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Speaker 4: outside society, Janice Joplin was big, but also she couldn't

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Speaker 4: go into fancy hotels because of the way she dressed. And, um,

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Speaker 4: we all talked and hung out together, but I had

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Speaker 4: very good mentors very early on. For instance, Bobby Newworth,

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Speaker 4: who I recognize from being in Don't Look Back. Uh,

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Speaker 4: Bobby was also a painter and a songwriter is, I mean,

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Speaker 4: And Bobby introduced me. He was tour managing Janice Joplin

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Speaker 4: at the time, and she was writing material. And Bobby

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Speaker 4: liked my poems, and he encouraged me to write some

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Speaker 4: lyrics for her. You know, I had a lot of

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Speaker 4: encouragement from people.

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Speaker 3: I was sort of an unusual... I was.

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Speaker 4: Like Holden Caulfield at the Chelsea, a little mix of

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Speaker 4: Holden Caulfield or Eloise at the Plaza.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I was not.

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Speaker 4: even though I was sort of a South Jersey hick,

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Speaker 4: but I was really well read. And I was also

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Speaker 4: probably one of the few people who wasn't stoned or

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Speaker 4: speeding half the time because I didn't take drugs. And

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Speaker 4: I had a steady job, which meant I could be

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Speaker 4: hit for a couple of dollars.

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Speaker 3: Here and there. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I can't say why these really great people, you know,

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Speaker 4: took me in under their wing, but they did.

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Speaker 2: I'm struck in that you're a, That world that you're

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Speaker 2: inhabiting in this sort of first stage, 67 to 75,

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Speaker 2: how many people are like you, outsiders who come to

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Speaker 2: New York? I'm fascinated by the notion of people who arrive,

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Speaker 2: the difference between arriving to New York from, as you did,

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Speaker 2: you know, as you call yourself, a hick from South Jersey,

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Speaker 2: difference between encountering all of what was going on culturally.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you one thing. I came to New

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Speaker 4: York for a job. That's why, I mean, in South Jersey,

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Speaker 4: there wasn't a lot of work. And then they had

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Speaker 4: the New York shipyard closed down in 1967 or 66,

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Speaker 4: and 30,000 people went out of work.

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Speaker 3: And there wasn't any work.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you had the Columbia Record pressing plant near

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Speaker 4: where I lived or the Campbell Soup plant, but all

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Speaker 4: the factory jobs, any kind of, in Philadelphia, any kind

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Speaker 4: of bookstore job, anything was taken. And I had no

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Speaker 4: real skills. So I actually went to New York looking

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Speaker 4: for work. That was my first preoccupation. I wanted to

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Speaker 4: be an artist. I wanted to meet people like me

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Speaker 4: who were more outsider types or more devoted to art.

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Speaker 3: But the first thing I wanted to find was a job.

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Speaker 4: New York at the time was great for people like

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Speaker 4: me because you could get an apartment, even if you

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Speaker 4: only made like $ 60 a week. you could get an

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Speaker 4: apartment for $ 80 a month. I mean, it might be

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Speaker 4: filled with cockroaches and stuff, but when you're young, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I didn't care. It was a really good time for

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Speaker 4: people like me, and they came from all over. There

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Speaker 4: was also the fact that a lot of kids that

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Speaker 4: were gay kids, which we didn't even have that term then,

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Speaker 4: but a lot of kids that were from all over

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Speaker 4: America who were thrown out by their families, disowned, or

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Speaker 4: were abused in their neighborhoods or down south or wherever

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Speaker 4: they were from, they all migrated to New York City.

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Speaker 4: Because New York City was, you know, you can say

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Speaker 4: anything about, you know, the problems with the police or stuff.

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Speaker 4: But at that time, considering where a lot of this

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Speaker 4: came from and what the kind of abuse you would

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Speaker 4: get if you were different, just dress indifferent, was so

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Speaker 4: strong that to come to a place like New York

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Speaker 4: City where nobody cared, you could dress the way you wanted,

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Speaker 4: you know, you could reinvent yourself, you could be, you know, really,

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Speaker 4: you know, any sexual persuasion, at least to a point,

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Speaker 4: at least among a like-minded society.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. How did you meet Robert Mapplethorpe?

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Speaker 4: I met him, you know, first I met him in

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Speaker 4: Brooklyn in I had nowhere to, I came to New

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Speaker 4: York with about $ 5 and no job and nowhere to stay.

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Speaker 4: I knew a couple of people who went to Pratt university,

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Speaker 4: but I'd forgotten that it was summertime and there was

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Speaker 4: nobody there. And when I went to their apartments, some

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Speaker 4: of them had moved out. And, uh, one of the

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Speaker 4: people I was looking for had moved out and Robert

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Speaker 4: was staying there. And, uh, I was just directed to Robert.

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Speaker 3: Ask Robert. Ask him.

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Speaker 4: They didn't even tell me his name. Ask my roommate

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Speaker 4: if they know where your friend lives.

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Speaker 3: And he did.

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Speaker 4: So he led me to where my friend lived.

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Speaker 3: My friend was away.

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Speaker 4: And I wound up sleeping in the hallway or on

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Speaker 4: the stoop on the 3rd of July. Because I remember

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Speaker 4: I woke up at the 4th of July, you know,

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Speaker 4: sitting asleep on the stoop. with firecrackers going off. And

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Speaker 4: it was all these kids setting off firecrackers because I

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Speaker 4: had forgotten that it was Independence Day. And indeed, I

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Speaker 4: was independent. And then I just serendipitously met him a

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Speaker 4: couple of times. And one afternoon or one evening, he

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Speaker 4: sort of rescued me from a difficult situation. And we

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Speaker 4: started talking. And we walked around the village all night

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Speaker 4: for hours talking. And Robert was on acid, but I

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Speaker 4: had never even seen acid in person. I had only

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Speaker 4: read about it like in Anais Nin or Henry Miller books.

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Speaker 4: I'd never seen anybody on acid. And we just talked

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Speaker 4: all night. And then in the end, he said, do

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Speaker 4: you have a place to stay? And I said, no.

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Speaker 4: And neither did he. Because of different circumstances, neither one

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Speaker 4: of us had an apartment. But he had the key

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Speaker 4: to somebody else's apartment who was away. And then we

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Speaker 4: went there and sat up talking. Till dawn, and then

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Speaker 4: we never parted.

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Speaker 3: Until we did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'd found somebody like me. Somebody who had been disenfranchised.

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Speaker 4: Someone who had been sort of disowned by his father.

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Speaker 4: Someone who, you know, wanted to devote himself to art.

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Speaker 4: You know, the perfect boy to meet at 20 years old.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Just Kids, it's this beautiful thing about your

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Speaker 2: career that you've produced these transcendent things in more than

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Speaker 2: one genre. I mean... It's such a rare thing to have.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remember I didn't really know much about

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Speaker 2: you until I read Just Kids. I thought it was

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Speaker 2: one of the most beautiful love stories I've ever read.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

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Speaker 2: But then I realized, oh, this is written by someone

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Speaker 2: who has also produced a kind of series of iconic

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Speaker 2: albums as well. I mean, that kind of double threat

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Speaker 2: is very impressive.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's just the way I am. I mean, believe me,

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Speaker 4: when I was young, all I wanted to be was

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Speaker 4: an abstract expressionist painter. I would have been happy just

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Speaker 4: being like Joan Mitchell or de Kooning or somebody. And

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Speaker 4: I do produce, I have produced a lot of visual work,

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Speaker 4: but it's just part of me. What made it even

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Speaker 4: more complicated wasn't just that I wrote poetry and then,

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Speaker 4: you know, obviously I've written books and recorded. Then to

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Speaker 4: throw performing into the mix, which that was just another one.

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Speaker 4: I thought, oh my gosh, just Robert always used to

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Speaker 4: worry about me. He'd say, can't you just pick one?

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Speaker 4: He would worry that I would spread myself too thin,

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Speaker 4: but it's just part of my jumping bean personality, I suppose.

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Speaker 4: But I do what calls me for different reasons.

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Speaker 2: Does it feel different to create music than to create

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Speaker 2: other kinds of art?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not really a musician. I don't create a

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Speaker 4: whole lot of music. I mean, I write little melodies.

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Speaker 4: And they're often similar. It's like, left to my own devices,

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Speaker 4: I would be sort of a polar music player.

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Speaker 3: Or porch song writer.

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Speaker 4: Because when I write things on my own, they're like

337
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Speaker 4: little porch songs. And I don't really play anything except

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Speaker 4: feedback and about four or five chords.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think like a musician.

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Speaker 4: I have a natural feel for melody and might sing

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Speaker 4: to myself walking down the street, but I'm not. I

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00:20:09,376 --> 00:20:12,346
Speaker 4: was married to a great musician. I know I've seen

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Speaker 4: how a musician's mind works, you know, and I'm more

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Speaker 4: prone to language.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wait, talk about this a little bit more. What exactly

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Speaker 2: do you mean by the way a musician's mind works?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I can't... I'm just saying that the

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Speaker 4: way that I'm obsessed with writing and the way that

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Speaker 4: I really have to write every day. I've written almost

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Speaker 4: every day since I was a kid. And whether anyone

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Speaker 4: sees it or not, I would say 70% of my

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Speaker 4: writing has never been published. I am compelled to write. And... musician,

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Speaker 4: at least my husband was compelled to translate his, you know, dreams,

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Speaker 4: his thoughts, his vision into music.

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Speaker 3: And I don't really think like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm more a performer.

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Speaker 4: And people say, oh, you're too modest. You don't want

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Speaker 4: to be called a musician. Well, I don't want to

361
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Speaker 4: be called a musician because I haven't earned that. But

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Speaker 4: I am a performer and I'm a strong performer and

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Speaker 4: I have earned that.

364
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Speaker 3: And that's good enough for me.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then come

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Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Patti Smith. We're

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Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell's interview with Patti Smith.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to the many lives of Patti Smith.

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Speaker 2: So life number one is, as you say, that period

370
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Speaker 2: ending in 75. Number two is what?

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Speaker 4: I would say the next stage is really, you know,

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Speaker 4: going out into the world, performing. having a public life,

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Speaker 4: which part of me is, you know, I'm very reclusive,

374
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Speaker 4: not very social, and I could spend 14 hours just

375
00:21:59,896 --> 00:22:03,416
Speaker 4: working on, you know, the end of chapter seven. You know,

376
00:22:03,496 --> 00:22:07,976
Speaker 4: I don't crave public life, but it has called to me,

377
00:22:07,996 --> 00:22:12,846
Speaker 4: you know, in the 70s, of course, until I left

378
00:22:13,066 --> 00:22:15,386
Speaker 4: in 79, I became the leader of a band.

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Speaker 3: And I like that.

380
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Speaker 4: I like that position of being sort of having my people.

381
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Speaker 4: My brother was the head of my crew. I had

382
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:29,156
Speaker 4: a small loyal group and seeing the world and having

383
00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:32,576
Speaker 4: some effect on people, a positive effect on people, or

384
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Speaker 4: having an effect on new artists or having an effect

385
00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:38,916
Speaker 4: on the disenfranchised all over the world.

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Speaker 3: And that was meaningful.

387
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Speaker 4: So I would say that period, it was very demanding

388
00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,936
Speaker 4: and very demanding on me physically. But I would say

389
00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:51,416
Speaker 4: that entering public life. That took up a lot of

390
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Speaker 4: my time until the end of the 70s, which in

391
00:22:54,136 --> 00:22:57,696
Speaker 4: some ways, it had its great greatness and it had

392
00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:01,996
Speaker 4: its excitement. But in terms of being a writer, it

393
00:23:02,056 --> 00:23:07,866
Speaker 4: definitely interrupted my evolution and interrupted my evolution as a

394
00:23:07,906 --> 00:23:13,386
Speaker 4: human being. Because the stress and the demands of a

395
00:23:13,466 --> 00:23:19,766
Speaker 4: life like that, sometimes one develops a demanding habits or

396
00:23:20,006 --> 00:23:23,986
Speaker 4: you know a less caring or you might be compassionate

397
00:23:24,026 --> 00:23:27,306
Speaker 4: in terms of the world but in terms of interaction

398
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Speaker 4: you know i was i had a lot of hubris

399
00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:32,916
Speaker 4: and i had to as a girl uh moving through

400
00:23:32,956 --> 00:23:35,756
Speaker 4: this period of time you know i had to be

401
00:23:35,816 --> 00:23:39,606
Speaker 4: tough and i could be tough i could be mean

402
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:41,166
Speaker 4: as a snake actually.

403
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Speaker 2: What was your first important performance as a musician.

404
00:23:45,406 --> 00:23:48,046
Speaker 4: Well, there's a lot of them, but I would say

405
00:23:48,366 --> 00:23:53,646
Speaker 4: one of the most important, just in terms of comprehending

406
00:23:54,526 --> 00:23:57,766
Speaker 4: where we were at, was performing in London at the

407
00:23:57,806 --> 00:24:04,036
Speaker 4: Roundhouse in 76, when you go to Europe and I think, well,

408
00:24:04,056 --> 00:24:07,316
Speaker 4: whoever heard of us? We didn't have social media and

409
00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:10,096
Speaker 4: stuff like that. You might have your picture in some

410
00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:13,236
Speaker 4: rock magazines or something. And we didn't have any hits

411
00:24:13,776 --> 00:24:15,796
Speaker 4: or anything like that. It was a lot of word

412
00:24:15,856 --> 00:24:18,296
Speaker 4: of mouth. And so we went to play the roundhouse.

413
00:24:18,696 --> 00:24:22,156
Speaker 4: It was so packed. And there were actually young guys

414
00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:26,736
Speaker 4: coming through a hole in the roof, jumping down into

415
00:24:26,776 --> 00:24:30,496
Speaker 4: the crowd to get in. And later, when I met

416
00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:34,206
Speaker 4: Paul Simonon from The Clash, he told me that he

417
00:24:34,246 --> 00:24:35,286
Speaker 4: was one of those kids.

418
00:24:35,566 --> 00:24:35,946
Speaker 2: Oh, really?

419
00:24:36,206 --> 00:24:36,526
Speaker 1: Yes.

420
00:24:36,986 --> 00:24:38,826
Speaker 4: Because he didn't have the money to get in. So

421
00:24:38,986 --> 00:24:39,806
Speaker 4: that's how he got in.

422
00:24:40,206 --> 00:24:42,456
Speaker 2: Was that your first international tour?

423
00:24:43,096 --> 00:24:44,176
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

424
00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:48,996
Speaker 4: Maybe our first job was in Brussels, which was even crazier.

425
00:24:49,856 --> 00:24:53,556
Speaker 4: It was just that first tour. It was just suddenly

426
00:24:53,686 --> 00:24:57,746
Speaker 4: seeing that people liked our work in places we'd never been.

427
00:24:58,406 --> 00:25:02,566
Speaker 3: Brussels, Finland, you know, it was awesome.

428
00:25:02,906 --> 00:25:06,346
Speaker 4: You know, Sweden, we went to, and, you know, being from,

429
00:25:06,786 --> 00:25:10,056
Speaker 4: you know, a lower middle class background, and never having

430
00:25:10,136 --> 00:25:13,276
Speaker 4: any money to travel, getting to see all these places

431
00:25:13,656 --> 00:25:16,996
Speaker 4: was awesome. We didn't make all that much money or anything,

432
00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:19,876
Speaker 4: but we didn't care. We were getting to see the

433
00:25:19,936 --> 00:25:23,946
Speaker 4: world and getting to meet new people and see, you know,

434
00:25:23,966 --> 00:25:27,006
Speaker 4: what they were doing. And because I started out a

435
00:25:27,046 --> 00:25:29,646
Speaker 4: little older, because I was in my, I don't know

436
00:25:29,666 --> 00:25:32,066
Speaker 4: how old I was, but, you know, we had a

437
00:25:32,106 --> 00:25:37,146
Speaker 4: lot of younger kids, 18, 20, who wanted to do things.

438
00:25:37,326 --> 00:25:41,566
Speaker 3: And, uh, a lot of girls checking out the situation.

439
00:25:41,676 --> 00:25:45,696
Speaker 4: And what I always told him is I had no

440
00:25:45,816 --> 00:25:47,156
Speaker 4: particular gifts.

441
00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:49,486
Speaker 3: If I could do it, you could do it.

442
00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:52,256
Speaker 4: If you have a vision and if you have will

443
00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,816
Speaker 4: and you have a benevolent vision that you want to

444
00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:58,726
Speaker 4: share with people, you know, in some guts, you can

445
00:25:58,766 --> 00:25:59,056
Speaker 4: do it.

446
00:25:59,446 --> 00:26:03,246
Speaker 2: I'm curious about that era in rock and roll. Is

447
00:26:03,286 --> 00:26:08,676
Speaker 2: the relationship of the artist to the audience in that era, mid-70s,

448
00:26:09,216 --> 00:26:10,386
Speaker 2: different than it is today?

449
00:26:11,706 --> 00:26:12,096
Speaker 3: I don't know.

450
00:26:12,206 --> 00:26:15,686
Speaker 4: Mine isn't. I can't say because I don't really go

451
00:26:15,726 --> 00:26:20,346
Speaker 4: to concerts. When I was younger, I learned a lot

452
00:26:20,466 --> 00:26:23,226
Speaker 4: about how to interact with the audience from Johnny Winter

453
00:26:23,246 --> 00:26:27,286
Speaker 4: because I had a job sort of helping with Johnny.

454
00:26:27,346 --> 00:26:30,386
Speaker 4: Johnny was completely colorblind. And when I was living at

455
00:26:30,406 --> 00:26:34,176
Speaker 4: the Chelsea's, so was Johnny. And Steve Paul, his manager,

456
00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:37,536
Speaker 4: actually gave me a job because I was very trustworthy. Just,

457
00:26:38,146 --> 00:26:40,486
Speaker 4: you know, walking with Johnny when he had to cross

458
00:26:40,526 --> 00:26:42,626
Speaker 4: a lot of streets and things because he couldn't tell

459
00:26:42,686 --> 00:26:46,326
Speaker 4: the red from the green traffic lights, things like that.

460
00:26:46,906 --> 00:26:50,506
Speaker 4: I went to London once with them just to make

461
00:26:50,546 --> 00:26:54,266
Speaker 4: sure Johnny was maneuvering the streets well. And so I

462
00:26:54,306 --> 00:26:56,956
Speaker 4: went to a lot of his concerts. And Johnny was

463
00:26:57,046 --> 00:26:59,256
Speaker 4: one of the most, in all my life, one of

464
00:26:59,296 --> 00:27:03,896
Speaker 4: the most electric performers I ever saw. Just such a

465
00:27:03,936 --> 00:27:07,696
Speaker 4: great singer, such a great guitar player and fearless. He

466
00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:10,236
Speaker 4: was the first person I saw jump into the crowd

467
00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:14,596
Speaker 4: with an electric guitar. Just so much energy and so

468
00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,796
Speaker 4: much interaction with the people, looking them straight in the eye.

469
00:27:17,976 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 4: I mean, because I was like into like Bob Dylan

470
00:27:22,376 --> 00:27:25,926
Speaker 4: or when I was younger, Lou Reed or the Velvet Underground.

471
00:27:25,946 --> 00:27:29,306
Speaker 4: They all were really cool. You know, they didn't interact.

472
00:27:29,586 --> 00:27:32,406
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that critically. I loved that, you know,

473
00:27:32,496 --> 00:27:36,646
Speaker 4: but Johnny Winter was a totally different animal. And where

474
00:27:36,706 --> 00:27:39,086
Speaker 4: I would have imagined I would have been more like

475
00:27:39,166 --> 00:27:42,466
Speaker 4: Bob Dylan because I really modeled myself after Bob Dylan,

476
00:27:42,826 --> 00:27:45,526
Speaker 4: I was really more like Johnny. I just, I don't

477
00:27:45,566 --> 00:27:48,286
Speaker 4: know where it comes from, but I can be sort

478
00:27:48,326 --> 00:27:50,646
Speaker 4: of like stand there like Edith Piaf and do a

479
00:27:50,666 --> 00:27:54,126
Speaker 4: little song. But especially when I was young, I was

480
00:27:54,186 --> 00:27:54,626
Speaker 4: an animal.

481
00:27:55,326 --> 00:27:56,346
Speaker 2: Tell me what that means.

482
00:27:56,806 --> 00:27:59,426
Speaker 4: Well, I just mean I was fearless.

483
00:27:59,506 --> 00:28:02,126
Speaker 3: I would jump off a piano. I went on my knees.

484
00:28:02,246 --> 00:28:07,236
Speaker 4: I would play like I had the loudest amplifier when

485
00:28:07,246 --> 00:28:12,356
Speaker 4: we played improvisation or feedback and put my foot through

486
00:28:12,416 --> 00:28:13,776
Speaker 4: an amp if I was pissed off.

487
00:28:13,856 --> 00:28:14,796
Speaker 3: I just could rip.

488
00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:17,676
Speaker 4: I had the heaviest strings on my electric guitar. I

489
00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:21,196
Speaker 4: could just slide my hand and rip them out in one.

490
00:28:21,426 --> 00:28:25,526
Speaker 4: I ripped a pickup out of my Duosonic once. I

491
00:28:25,546 --> 00:28:30,306
Speaker 4: just had so much concentrated energy. And I'm not saying

492
00:28:30,346 --> 00:28:33,246
Speaker 4: I don't have energy now, but at 75, I pace

493
00:28:33,306 --> 00:28:37,346
Speaker 4: myself different. Every once in a while, though, that comes through.

494
00:28:38,286 --> 00:28:41,876
Speaker 4: She's still there. She just paces herself.

495
00:28:42,496 --> 00:28:45,956
Speaker 2: What is it? You call it energy. Is it frustration?

496
00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:47,716
Speaker 2: Is it anger? Is it enthusiasm?

497
00:28:47,736 --> 00:28:49,576
Speaker 4: No, it's just pure energy.

498
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:50,056
Speaker 2: Yeah.

499
00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:51,156
Speaker 3: Pure energy.

500
00:28:51,376 --> 00:28:52,816
Speaker 2: And that's what you saw in Johnny Winter?

501
00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:53,376
Speaker 1: Yeah.

502
00:28:54,086 --> 00:28:58,596
Speaker 4: Because it wasn't even political. I didn't really have... I mean,

503
00:28:59,216 --> 00:29:02,756
Speaker 4: of course, I've always been a humanist or something, but

504
00:29:02,816 --> 00:29:07,236
Speaker 4: I wasn't... What I did was only political. It was

505
00:29:07,336 --> 00:29:11,826
Speaker 4: personally political. What I wanted to do was create space

506
00:29:12,546 --> 00:29:15,246
Speaker 4: for new people because I perceived that.

507
00:29:15,866 --> 00:29:17,576
Speaker 3: I loved rock and roll. I loved it.

508
00:29:18,006 --> 00:29:21,026
Speaker 4: I was brought up with it, danced to it, listened

509
00:29:21,066 --> 00:29:24,746
Speaker 4: to it, daydreamed to it, and... I didn't want to

510
00:29:24,866 --> 00:29:30,526
Speaker 4: see it become like stadium acts, glamorous acts, all about

511
00:29:30,886 --> 00:29:33,216
Speaker 4: just indulgence.

512
00:29:33,856 --> 00:29:34,296
Speaker 3: I don't know.

513
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:37,296
Speaker 4: I didn't really like the direction it was going into.

514
00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:42,036
Speaker 4: I wanted to preserve some of the... I mean, it

515
00:29:42,076 --> 00:29:44,766
Speaker 4: might seem like a lot of hubris for a young girl, that,

516
00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:47,046
Speaker 4: you know, but I had a lot of hubris. I mean,

517
00:29:47,066 --> 00:29:51,166
Speaker 4: I could have like played Coriolanus or something. I had

518
00:29:51,206 --> 00:29:54,376
Speaker 4: so much hubris, but I mean, think of like who

519
00:29:54,416 --> 00:29:56,006
Speaker 4: we lost, my generation.

520
00:29:56,066 --> 00:29:57,016
Speaker 3: We lost, when I.

521
00:29:56,996 --> 00:30:00,816
Speaker 4: Was a teenager, President Kennedy got shot and then Martin

522
00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:04,536
Speaker 4: Luther King, you know, then Bobby Kennedy. And then, you know,

523
00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:07,836
Speaker 4: we have our musicians that we love. And then Brian

524
00:30:07,856 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 4: Jones died and Jimi Hendrix died and Jim Morrison died

525
00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:14,446
Speaker 4: and Janis Joplin died. I mean, these were like such

526
00:30:14,586 --> 00:30:19,306
Speaker 4: important voices. And, you know, they were just how I imagined.

527
00:30:19,446 --> 00:30:22,946
Speaker 4: I imagined that, you know, music of the future was

528
00:30:22,986 --> 00:30:27,496
Speaker 4: going to be Jimi Hendrix, Coltrane, you know, all the

529
00:30:27,576 --> 00:30:30,176
Speaker 4: people that I loved. And we just lost them.

530
00:30:31,016 --> 00:30:31,696
Speaker 3: Really quickly.

531
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:37,576
Speaker 4: Lost Coltrane early. That poetic voice that was so strong

532
00:30:38,096 --> 00:30:41,356
Speaker 4: in the late 60s. And I didn't want to see

533
00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:44,316
Speaker 4: it go. I didn't want to see it diffused into

534
00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:49,656
Speaker 4: some other place. But, you know, also I was highly opinionated.

535
00:30:49,776 --> 00:30:54,476
Speaker 4: So I was just trying to kick open doors. I

536
00:30:54,536 --> 00:30:57,196
Speaker 4: only expected to do one record. You know, Clive Davis

537
00:30:57,296 --> 00:31:00,976
Speaker 4: asked me to do a record. I was amazed at that. fine,

538
00:31:01,016 --> 00:31:02,476
Speaker 4: I did a record and then I was just going

539
00:31:02,496 --> 00:31:04,496
Speaker 4: to go back to, you know, back to the bookstore,

540
00:31:04,576 --> 00:31:07,716
Speaker 4: back to writing poetry. But I did have an aim

541
00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:10,756
Speaker 4: with that record was to create space for new people,

542
00:31:11,276 --> 00:31:15,706
Speaker 4: for people who became Michael Stipe, you know, for whoever.

543
00:31:16,066 --> 00:31:16,966
Speaker 3: That was my goal.

544
00:31:18,326 --> 00:31:20,906
Speaker 2: So when you're on that initial tour of Europe and though,

545
00:31:20,986 --> 00:31:23,426
Speaker 2: you know, the kids are climbing through the hole in

546
00:31:23,466 --> 00:31:26,666
Speaker 2: the roof to get into the crowd, is that what they're,

547
00:31:27,226 --> 00:31:28,426
Speaker 2: that's what they're responding to?

548
00:31:28,966 --> 00:31:32,586
Speaker 4: I didn't take it personally. Like, they were responding to me.

549
00:31:32,646 --> 00:31:36,566
Speaker 4: They were responding to something new that they could do

550
00:31:36,606 --> 00:31:38,176
Speaker 4: themselves or maybe eclipse.

551
00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:40,136
Speaker 3: And that's what I wanted.

552
00:31:40,766 --> 00:31:43,756
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be the king or queen or

553
00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:47,396
Speaker 4: princess of anything. I just wanted to, you know, shake

554
00:31:47,416 --> 00:31:47,866
Speaker 4: things up.

555
00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:50,476
Speaker 2: What were you playing in those concerts? Other than your

556
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:51,496
Speaker 2: own work, what were you playing?

557
00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:55,276
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, my own work also incorporated, you know,

558
00:31:55,296 --> 00:31:59,296
Speaker 4: our version of Land of a Thousand Dances and Gloria.

559
00:32:00,056 --> 00:32:03,156
Speaker 4: And just our songs, reggae songs. If I liked a

560
00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:06,016
Speaker 4: certain R & B song, we'd try it. But mostly

561
00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:06,736
Speaker 4: our own stuff.

562
00:32:07,496 --> 00:32:10,596
Speaker 2: Is there a difference in the way you approach covering

563
00:32:10,656 --> 00:32:11,816
Speaker 2: a song versus one of your own?

564
00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:13,476
Speaker 3: It depends on the song.

565
00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:18,216
Speaker 4: Like sometimes Land of a Thousand Dances, really a catalyst

566
00:32:18,316 --> 00:32:22,856
Speaker 4: for an apocalypse, you know. It was sometimes a song,

567
00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:26,886
Speaker 4: because I was just starting out. We started out with piano,

568
00:32:27,496 --> 00:32:31,086
Speaker 4: like Lenny K, my pianist, and I. And it was basically,

569
00:32:31,426 --> 00:32:36,466
Speaker 4: we started out musically, mostly for three chord songs that

570
00:32:36,546 --> 00:32:39,846
Speaker 4: I could rap over. I wasn't particularly a great singer.

571
00:32:39,926 --> 00:32:43,126
Speaker 4: I didn't know much about singing. I mean, I sang

572
00:32:43,186 --> 00:32:45,996
Speaker 4: in like the school choir and stuff, but it was

573
00:32:46,086 --> 00:32:50,496
Speaker 4: more a vehicle for me to improvise poetry. You know,

574
00:32:50,576 --> 00:32:54,756
Speaker 4: horses grew from a lot of improvisation, like being at

575
00:32:55,316 --> 00:32:58,636
Speaker 4: CBGBs and doing a 22-minute version of Land of a

576
00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:02,956
Speaker 4: Thousand Dances that was a lot of poetry. And that's

577
00:33:03,016 --> 00:33:06,956
Speaker 4: why I think like William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory,

578
00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:10,726
Speaker 4: they like me. They like the fusion of this energy

579
00:33:11,426 --> 00:33:17,946
Speaker 4: and youth, but with a semi-sophisticated aspect, poetic aspect.

580
00:33:19,306 --> 00:33:20,806
Speaker 3: But then, you know, also.

581
00:33:21,296 --> 00:33:23,876
Speaker 4: There are certain songs that I'll just do as the song.

582
00:33:24,456 --> 00:33:26,556
Speaker 4: I do it much better now because I'm a better

583
00:33:26,616 --> 00:33:29,096
Speaker 4: singer than I was when I was younger. I mostly

584
00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:31,216
Speaker 4: sang out of my nose when I was younger.

585
00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:33,156
Speaker 3: You know, for instance, what song?

586
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:38,016
Speaker 4: These days we did Blame It on the Sun by

587
00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:44,456
Speaker 4: Stevie Wonder. Just do a really nice, respectful version. I

588
00:33:44,536 --> 00:33:48,696
Speaker 4: covered Stay, the one that Rihanna and Mickey Echo did.

589
00:33:49,536 --> 00:33:52,606
Speaker 4: I love covering songs. Every once in a while, I

590
00:33:52,646 --> 00:33:54,766
Speaker 4: have a disaster where I try to cover a song

591
00:33:54,806 --> 00:33:58,876
Speaker 4: where I don't really have the range or the technique

592
00:33:58,896 --> 00:34:01,636
Speaker 4: to do that song, but I'll get so enamored with.

593
00:34:01,596 --> 00:34:02,276
Speaker 3: A song, I'll try.

594
00:34:02,296 --> 00:34:03,436
Speaker 2: What's an example of a disaster?

595
00:34:03,616 --> 00:34:04,656
Speaker 3: Oh, the worst.

596
00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:07,636
Speaker 4: It was Rolling in the Deep. I tried doing that,

597
00:34:07,816 --> 00:34:10,016
Speaker 4: and it was so bad that I just was laughing.

598
00:34:10,096 --> 00:34:11,736
Speaker 4: And the people knew it was bad, and they were

599
00:34:11,776 --> 00:34:17,766
Speaker 4: just saying, do it anyway. But I just loved that.

600
00:34:17,706 --> 00:34:21,426
Speaker 3: Chorus, you know. And I used to try to do.

601
00:34:21,866 --> 00:34:25,406
Speaker 4: four top songs, but I couldn't quite get like Bernadette

602
00:34:25,586 --> 00:34:27,026
Speaker 4: or I'll Be There.

603
00:34:27,386 --> 00:34:29,386
Speaker 3: I'd love these great choruses.

604
00:34:30,086 --> 00:34:33,086
Speaker 4: But I've gotten better. I do a lot of Neil

605
00:34:33,146 --> 00:34:36,296
Speaker 4: Young covers because I love his lyrics, but also we

606
00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:40,076
Speaker 4: sing pretty much in the same key. I can keep

607
00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:41,856
Speaker 4: the songs in Neil's key.

608
00:34:41,656 --> 00:34:42,156
Speaker 3: And do them.

609
00:34:42,856 --> 00:34:44,416
Speaker 2: You've never collaborated with him, have you?

610
00:34:44,856 --> 00:34:45,076
Speaker 3: No.

611
00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:48,596
Speaker 4: I mean, I've improvised on stage with them, but no,

612
00:34:48,636 --> 00:34:51,616
Speaker 4: I haven't really collaborated with really anybody.

613
00:34:51,866 --> 00:34:52,066
Speaker 1: Yeah.

614
00:34:52,486 --> 00:34:54,886
Speaker 2: You mentioned Michael Stipe. You talked about that idea of

615
00:34:54,986 --> 00:34:58,246
Speaker 2: creating opportunities for others. Does he fit into that?

616
00:34:58,806 --> 00:35:01,886
Speaker 4: Well, Michael Stipe, when I heard his music or saw,

617
00:35:01,986 --> 00:35:04,866
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes Fred would watch MTV to see what

618
00:35:04,926 --> 00:35:09,906
Speaker 4: was happening musically. And I was very taken with REM.

619
00:35:10,766 --> 00:35:14,046
Speaker 4: And Fred used to tease me when, you know, because

620
00:35:14,086 --> 00:35:16,096
Speaker 4: I'd be like washing dishes or something.

621
00:35:16,116 --> 00:35:17,616
Speaker 3: He'd say, Tricia, your boy's on.

622
00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:19,956
Speaker 4: And I'd come out and it would be like Michael

623
00:35:20,016 --> 00:35:24,436
Speaker 4: singing Losing My Religion or something. And because I really

624
00:35:24,896 --> 00:35:30,716
Speaker 4: liked his music. And when Fred died, my first Valentine's

625
00:35:30,816 --> 00:35:34,756
Speaker 4: Day without Fred, the phone rang that night and this

626
00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:36,116
Speaker 4: voice came over the.

627
00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:40,396
Speaker 4: I don't think Michael would mind me. I think I've

628
00:35:40,456 --> 00:35:45,226
Speaker 4: told this before, but it was Michael. Michael Stipe calling

629
00:35:45,306 --> 00:35:49,486
Speaker 4: me from Barcelona. He was on the road and he

630
00:35:49,546 --> 00:35:51,826
Speaker 4: was a bit... I think he had had a couple

631
00:35:51,866 --> 00:35:55,816
Speaker 4: of drinks. And it had occurred to him, I guess

632
00:35:56,456 --> 00:35:59,356
Speaker 4: he really liked me. He really liked our music. He

633
00:35:59,396 --> 00:36:02,676
Speaker 4: was inspired by horses when he was younger. And it

634
00:36:02,736 --> 00:36:05,796
Speaker 4: occurred to him because this is the beauty of Michael.

635
00:36:05,976 --> 00:36:11,326
Speaker 4: He's so human and has such a compassionate, empathetic sense.

636
00:36:12,046 --> 00:36:15,966
Speaker 4: It occurred to him that I was recently widowed and

637
00:36:16,066 --> 00:36:18,926
Speaker 4: I was going to have my first Valentine's Day without

638
00:36:18,986 --> 00:36:24,136
Speaker 4: my husband, who obviously I greatly loved. So he called

639
00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:29,196
Speaker 4: to wish me happy Valentine's Day. And slowly, I mean,

640
00:36:29,236 --> 00:36:33,496
Speaker 4: eventually I got to meet him, saw his concerts. And

641
00:36:33,536 --> 00:36:37,106
Speaker 4: when I came to New York, it was a huge

642
00:36:37,226 --> 00:36:43,826
Speaker 4: challenge for me to really came financially empty-handed with my kids.

643
00:36:44,586 --> 00:36:47,926
Speaker 4: And Michael, who I was just getting to know without

644
00:36:47,966 --> 00:36:51,226
Speaker 4: going into a lot of details, made it possible for

645
00:36:51,286 --> 00:36:53,626
Speaker 4: me to start a new life in New York City.

646
00:36:54,086 --> 00:36:57,336
Speaker 4: And we've been so close ever since. I mean, he

647
00:36:57,376 --> 00:37:02,256
Speaker 4: just did that. And, of course, it inspired me to

648
00:37:02,316 --> 00:37:06,196
Speaker 4: work as hard as I could to earn his trust

649
00:37:06,276 --> 00:37:09,626
Speaker 4: in me and also his belief in me that I

650
00:37:09,726 --> 00:37:13,546
Speaker 4: could get back on my feet and take care of

651
00:37:13,606 --> 00:37:17,566
Speaker 4: myself and my family if I just had a helping hand.

652
00:37:18,166 --> 00:37:18,306
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

653
00:37:19,086 --> 00:37:21,026
Speaker 4: And I'm not ashamed to say that I needed one.

654
00:37:21,666 --> 00:37:26,046
Speaker 4: And now we're just loving friends. It was interesting though,

655
00:37:26,126 --> 00:37:29,446
Speaker 4: just by chance, I got nominated to be in the

656
00:37:29,506 --> 00:37:32,206
Speaker 4: Hall of Fame like seven or eight times. And finally

657
00:37:32,296 --> 00:37:35,176
Speaker 4: I did get in, I think it was 2007, the

658
00:37:35,216 --> 00:37:38,656
Speaker 4: same year as Michael. And I always imagined that if

659
00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:43,056
Speaker 4: I ever did, I would ask Michael to speak for me.

660
00:37:43,616 --> 00:37:47,826
Speaker 4: And Michael secretly imagined that I might speak for them

661
00:37:48,296 --> 00:37:51,076
Speaker 4: But neither one of us could speak for each other

662
00:37:51,296 --> 00:37:54,536
Speaker 4: because we both, we made it at the same time.

663
00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,216
Speaker 2: Did you play together that evening?

664
00:37:57,876 --> 00:38:00,436
Speaker 4: I'm sure we did. It's like such a blur. I mean,

665
00:38:00,476 --> 00:38:04,336
Speaker 4: everybody sort of played together, but I don't remember, truthfully.

666
00:38:04,616 --> 00:38:08,696
Speaker 4: What I do remember was sitting in Michael's suite. He

667
00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:11,256
Speaker 4: had a beautiful suite in the hotel. I think it

668
00:38:11,296 --> 00:38:15,236
Speaker 4: was the Waldorf Astoria where they used to have the ceremony.

669
00:38:15,256 --> 00:38:15,836
Speaker 2: Yeah.

670
00:38:16,386 --> 00:38:18,406
Speaker 4: He had a beautiful white suit on and I was

671
00:38:18,466 --> 00:38:22,076
Speaker 4: all in black. And we went to the elevator hand

672
00:38:22,136 --> 00:38:26,736
Speaker 4: in hand together. And that picture of him all in

673
00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,736
Speaker 4: white and me all in black heading to our ceremony

674
00:38:30,256 --> 00:38:31,196
Speaker 4: is still in my head.

675
00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:34,456
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Patti Smith after

676
00:38:34,496 --> 00:38:42,006
Speaker 1: this break. Here's the rest of Malcolm Gladwell's conversation with

677
00:38:42,046 --> 00:38:42,646
Speaker 1: Patti Smith.

678
00:38:42,666 --> 00:38:47,556
Speaker 2: Let's talk about your next life. Detroit and marriage. And

679
00:38:48,556 --> 00:38:53,096
Speaker 2: it seems, to an outsider, like a very dramatic change

680
00:38:53,176 --> 00:38:55,006
Speaker 2: in the kind of life you were living.

681
00:38:55,256 --> 00:38:58,626
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it was in the fact that I

682
00:38:58,706 --> 00:39:04,026
Speaker 4: went from playing for 80,000 people in a stadium in Florence,

683
00:39:04,106 --> 00:39:07,566
Speaker 4: which was my last job. It was just our job.

684
00:39:07,606 --> 00:39:08,806
Speaker 3: We had no open and act.

685
00:39:09,206 --> 00:39:13,126
Speaker 4: And that was my last job to living a quiet

686
00:39:13,166 --> 00:39:14,226
Speaker 4: life in Detroit.

687
00:39:14,936 --> 00:39:16,996
Speaker 3: But What I've always.

688
00:39:16,816 --> 00:39:21,976
Speaker 4: Wanted more than anything else was simply to do good work,

689
00:39:22,816 --> 00:39:27,526
Speaker 4: work of quality. And I could see my future. I

690
00:39:27,566 --> 00:39:30,126
Speaker 4: was in Europe. I was getting quite big. I know

691
00:39:30,166 --> 00:39:34,326
Speaker 4: that sounds conceited, but it's the truth. 80,000 is a lot.

692
00:39:34,686 --> 00:39:37,116
Speaker 4: We were huge We were as big as the Rolling

693
00:39:37,176 --> 00:39:41,516
Speaker 4: Stones in Italy, really. I mean, in terms of performing,

694
00:39:41,576 --> 00:39:45,056
Speaker 4: not recording-wise. But where was that all going for me

695
00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:49,846
Speaker 4: as an artist? I wasn't growing. I wasn't evolving as

696
00:39:49,886 --> 00:39:53,346
Speaker 4: a human being or as an artist. I didn't really

697
00:39:53,426 --> 00:39:58,166
Speaker 4: have fame and fortune goals ever. I always had a

698
00:39:58,206 --> 00:40:01,726
Speaker 4: goal to do something great, which is actually takes his

699
00:40:02,166 --> 00:40:04,276
Speaker 4: a little more conceited than thinking I want to be

700
00:40:04,336 --> 00:40:07,476
Speaker 4: rich and famous. I just wanted to be great, do

701
00:40:07,536 --> 00:40:11,576
Speaker 4: something great, to do something, you know, worthy, to do

702
00:40:11,636 --> 00:40:15,496
Speaker 4: something that will endure, to do something to add to

703
00:40:15,536 --> 00:40:18,216
Speaker 4: the pantheon of all the great work that's been done.

704
00:40:18,916 --> 00:40:21,776
Speaker 4: So it gave me an opportunity to really think about,

705
00:40:22,236 --> 00:40:25,396
Speaker 4: you know, for 16 years, what direction do I want

706
00:40:25,436 --> 00:40:29,456
Speaker 4: to go to, to develop a writer discipline, which I did,

707
00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:34,836
Speaker 4: and to reacquaint myself with being a citizen and being,

708
00:40:34,936 --> 00:40:38,646
Speaker 4: you know, a human being, you know, who doesn't place

709
00:40:38,706 --> 00:40:40,186
Speaker 4: themselves in the center.

710
00:40:40,786 --> 00:40:42,006
Speaker 2: How old are you when you get married?

711
00:40:42,706 --> 00:40:43,606
Speaker 3: I was 33.

712
00:40:43,606 --> 00:40:45,986
Speaker 2: And where did you meet Fred?

713
00:40:46,526 --> 00:40:48,526
Speaker 3: I met him in Detroit at a job.

714
00:40:48,786 --> 00:40:48,986
Speaker 2: Yeah.

715
00:40:49,306 --> 00:40:53,906
Speaker 4: You know, we played the Ford Theater in 1976. But really,

716
00:40:54,306 --> 00:40:56,926
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not comfortable with talking a lot about

717
00:40:56,986 --> 00:41:01,426
Speaker 4: that period of my life. It's really private. But the

718
00:41:02,486 --> 00:41:07,916
Speaker 4: thing is, I love my kids. I love Fred. We

719
00:41:07,936 --> 00:41:10,836
Speaker 4: didn't have the perfect life. It wasn't like always a paradise.

720
00:41:11,476 --> 00:41:14,276
Speaker 4: We had our problems. I don't mean just with each other.

721
00:41:14,356 --> 00:41:17,896
Speaker 4: I mean, we had, you know, things our own, you know,

722
00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:20,796
Speaker 4: all the things that people go through. You know, sometimes

723
00:41:20,856 --> 00:41:23,636
Speaker 4: it was hard. Sometimes it was financially hard because we

724
00:41:23,696 --> 00:41:26,656
Speaker 4: really left everything, all of our options.

725
00:41:27,756 --> 00:41:29,216
Speaker 3: We were sort of cut off.

726
00:41:30,096 --> 00:41:33,536
Speaker 4: But I have to say they're probably the most precious

727
00:41:34,156 --> 00:41:37,976
Speaker 4: years of my life. I loved Fred. I've never met

728
00:41:38,116 --> 00:41:41,416
Speaker 4: anyone else like him. I love my kids. He gave

729
00:41:41,456 --> 00:41:45,396
Speaker 4: me these, you know, a son and a daughter that,

730
00:41:46,316 --> 00:41:51,396
Speaker 4: you know, magnify my life. And for for myself personally,

731
00:41:51,646 --> 00:41:54,686
Speaker 4: I think I evolved quite a bit in that time period.

732
00:41:54,986 --> 00:41:58,866
Speaker 4: And I became a writer, not just writing poetry late

733
00:41:58,926 --> 00:42:00,986
Speaker 4: at night, stoned on pot or something.

734
00:42:01,066 --> 00:42:03,506
Speaker 3: I mean, a writer. I wrote every day.

735
00:42:03,606 --> 00:42:06,886
Speaker 4: I developed, you know, a really strong work ethic, which

736
00:42:06,966 --> 00:42:10,206
Speaker 4: I still have today. And because of those years, I

737
00:42:10,246 --> 00:42:14,006
Speaker 4: was able to write Just Kids. That Just Kids didn't

738
00:42:14,046 --> 00:42:16,606
Speaker 4: come out of anywhere. It came out of all those

739
00:42:16,666 --> 00:42:21,066
Speaker 4: years of writing and rewriting and learning about writing.

740
00:42:21,716 --> 00:42:27,516
Speaker 2: What's fascinating is you go from being part of this alive, diverse,

741
00:42:28,216 --> 00:42:31,236
Speaker 2: creative community in New York, the Chelsea Hotel, all those names.

742
00:42:32,016 --> 00:42:34,636
Speaker 2: And then in Detroit, is there a community in Detroit

743
00:42:34,676 --> 00:42:35,956
Speaker 2: like that? There isn't.

744
00:42:36,416 --> 00:42:38,916
Speaker 4: I mean, I, I didn't experience it, but Fred was

745
00:42:38,996 --> 00:42:42,156
Speaker 4: like a one man community. I mean, he had, first

746
00:42:42,196 --> 00:42:46,636
Speaker 4: of all, such a history. He was intelligent and beautiful

747
00:42:47,056 --> 00:42:51,436
Speaker 4: and athletic and, uh, interested in so many things, political,

748
00:42:52,096 --> 00:42:54,956
Speaker 4: such a good father, but he was, you know, a

749
00:42:54,996 --> 00:43:00,726
Speaker 4: very private man. You know, I've always been, in my life,

750
00:43:01,266 --> 00:43:05,406
Speaker 4: in my young life, I always had some person in

751
00:43:05,446 --> 00:43:09,346
Speaker 4: my life that was meaningful and that I had a

752
00:43:09,766 --> 00:43:14,106
Speaker 4: meaningful and fruitful relationship with. You know, it was Robert

753
00:43:14,426 --> 00:43:17,916
Speaker 4: and then Sam Shepard. You know, I had other relationships

754
00:43:17,936 --> 00:43:21,586
Speaker 4: that were important, but you know, it was important for me,

755
00:43:22,406 --> 00:43:24,886
Speaker 4: something I always wanted as well, not just to be

756
00:43:25,646 --> 00:43:29,166
Speaker 4: an artist, but to have a person in my life.

757
00:43:29,926 --> 00:43:33,926
Speaker 4: And he was the person. So, and as I said before,

758
00:43:33,946 --> 00:43:36,426
Speaker 4: I have a loner aspect.

759
00:43:37,366 --> 00:43:38,266
Speaker 3: I missed, if I.

760
00:43:38,226 --> 00:43:41,066
Speaker 4: Missed anything from the two things I missed the most,

761
00:43:41,686 --> 00:43:44,246
Speaker 4: I missed the camaraderie of my band. And my brother

762
00:43:44,926 --> 00:43:47,336
Speaker 4: was the head of our crew. And I missed that

763
00:43:47,686 --> 00:43:52,016
Speaker 4: lively relationship we had. I missed seeing him on the

764
00:43:52,076 --> 00:43:55,876
Speaker 4: side of the stage watching every move. I missed him

765
00:43:55,936 --> 00:43:59,956
Speaker 4: handing me my guitar. I missed the camaraderie. And I

766
00:44:00,016 --> 00:44:04,956
Speaker 4: also missed having a cafe on every street. I missed

767
00:44:04,996 --> 00:44:09,536
Speaker 4: New York in that way. But I came from rural

768
00:44:09,576 --> 00:44:13,656
Speaker 4: South Jersey. I was the oldest of four children. Came

769
00:44:13,716 --> 00:44:18,246
Speaker 4: from a very lively, chaotic household. So this was not

770
00:44:18,286 --> 00:44:22,786
Speaker 4: an unfamiliar life. No, I mean, it was a life

771
00:44:22,906 --> 00:44:25,866
Speaker 4: that I could adapt to. Also, I was with a

772
00:44:25,966 --> 00:44:28,106
Speaker 4: fellow artist and a fellow thinker.

773
00:44:28,486 --> 00:44:31,086
Speaker 2: Well, would you say you learned how to write in

774
00:44:31,126 --> 00:44:34,046
Speaker 2: those years? They turned you into a writer. Can you

775
00:44:34,106 --> 00:44:37,026
Speaker 2: talk about what that meant? I mean, you were writing every.

776
00:44:37,646 --> 00:44:38,866
Speaker 3: It's just like anything else.

777
00:44:38,986 --> 00:44:41,386
Speaker 4: You know, there's that, I don't know if it's a

778
00:44:41,446 --> 00:44:45,456
Speaker 4: joke or like a cliche where it says writing is 1%

779
00:44:45,456 --> 00:44:50,486
Speaker 4: inspiration and 90% or whatever perspiration. Well, I learned about

780
00:44:50,526 --> 00:44:55,226
Speaker 4: that 90%. I learned about the manual labor of writing.

781
00:44:55,946 --> 00:44:59,546
Speaker 4: And I learned, well, it's just, it became my discipline.

782
00:45:00,106 --> 00:45:02,836
Speaker 4: I got up early in the morning when everyone was sleeping.

783
00:45:02,896 --> 00:45:05,076
Speaker 4: When I had the kids, they'd be sleeping. I'd get

784
00:45:05,136 --> 00:45:07,076
Speaker 4: up at five in the morning and write from five

785
00:45:07,136 --> 00:45:10,316
Speaker 4: to eight every morning. And then they'd get up if,

786
00:45:10,736 --> 00:45:13,736
Speaker 4: as they got older, get them ready for school. and

787
00:45:13,776 --> 00:45:16,946
Speaker 4: do whatever tasks I had to do. But I always

788
00:45:17,046 --> 00:45:22,386
Speaker 4: took at least three hours whenever it was to just concentrate.

789
00:45:22,926 --> 00:45:25,046
Speaker 3: And I didn't.

790
00:45:24,886 --> 00:45:29,816
Speaker 4: Have the prolific skills, you know, of other writers. I

791
00:45:30,796 --> 00:45:33,196
Speaker 4: don't know how to explain it. It's just like anything else.

792
00:45:33,256 --> 00:45:34,156
Speaker 3: It's a discipline.

793
00:45:34,236 --> 00:45:36,596
Speaker 4: It's like if you start out with your muscles weak

794
00:45:36,656 --> 00:45:40,476
Speaker 4: and then you start exercising or doing certain things and by,

795
00:45:40,956 --> 00:45:45,086
Speaker 4: you know, after several months you crave exercise, you know,

796
00:45:45,146 --> 00:45:48,816
Speaker 4: and then it becomes not so painful. It's just part

797
00:45:48,856 --> 00:45:51,976
Speaker 4: of your regimen. It's just part of the work that

798
00:45:52,036 --> 00:45:54,356
Speaker 4: I do. I can't really break it down. I'm just

799
00:45:54,396 --> 00:45:57,456
Speaker 4: simply saying by the fact that I did it every day.

800
00:45:57,496 --> 00:45:59,176
Speaker 4: And if you want to learn to play the oboe

801
00:45:59,536 --> 00:46:02,836
Speaker 4: and you're not a prodigy, you might have to work

802
00:46:03,176 --> 00:46:07,016
Speaker 4: harder practicing several hours a day till you get just

803
00:46:07,056 --> 00:46:08,586
Speaker 4: the hang of the read.

804
00:46:09,126 --> 00:46:11,766
Speaker 2: Would you share that writing with people? What were you

805
00:46:11,806 --> 00:46:12,326
Speaker 2: doing with it?

806
00:46:13,126 --> 00:46:15,106
Speaker 3: I just did it and moved on.

807
00:46:15,566 --> 00:46:18,816
Speaker 4: I mean, I really, it's still, I have notebooks full

808
00:46:18,856 --> 00:46:23,356
Speaker 4: of stuff, but it's like, I just keep going. So,

809
00:46:23,516 --> 00:46:26,756
Speaker 4: you know, I imagine that one day I'd look back

810
00:46:26,856 --> 00:46:31,376
Speaker 4: or I'd sit and work on it and maybe publish it.

811
00:46:31,736 --> 00:46:35,206
Speaker 4: But what really happens is we really write in a

812
00:46:35,266 --> 00:46:40,406
Speaker 4: certain way. It's almost organic. We write the same thing

813
00:46:41,186 --> 00:46:44,886
Speaker 4: over and over in a different way. I'm also so

814
00:46:44,946 --> 00:46:49,126
Speaker 4: immersed with the present and also being at my age,

815
00:46:49,296 --> 00:46:56,076
Speaker 4: I finally grasped being happy with present tense that I

816
00:46:56,776 --> 00:46:59,036
Speaker 4: am more immersed in the writing that I'm doing now.

817
00:46:59,556 --> 00:47:02,276
Speaker 4: I look at all these notebooks and I know that

818
00:47:02,456 --> 00:47:05,596
Speaker 4: in there, there's probably some jewels, but there's probably a

819
00:47:05,616 --> 00:47:09,336
Speaker 4: lot of stuff that's just really the genesis of what

820
00:47:09,356 --> 00:47:10,056
Speaker 4: I'm writing now.

821
00:47:10,856 --> 00:47:12,576
Speaker 2: When do you start working on Just Kids?

822
00:47:13,376 --> 00:47:16,486
Speaker 4: Well, Robert asked me to write it the day, well,

823
00:47:16,646 --> 00:47:22,086
Speaker 4: only hours before he died, which I never expected. And

824
00:47:22,166 --> 00:47:24,066
Speaker 4: that was in 89.

825
00:47:24,066 --> 00:47:26,006
Speaker 2: You never expected him to ask you to write it? No.

826
00:47:26,666 --> 00:47:27,566
Speaker 2: Why didn't you expect that?

827
00:47:27,586 --> 00:47:31,166
Speaker 4: Well, I don't write nonfiction. I mean, I wrote poetry

828
00:47:31,246 --> 00:47:36,046
Speaker 4: and fairy tales and little stories. I mean, I'm not

829
00:47:36,106 --> 00:47:39,876
Speaker 4: a nonfiction writer. I wrote a lot of pieces about Robert,

830
00:47:39,916 --> 00:47:43,906
Speaker 4: about Robert's work for his catalogs and things. But what

831
00:47:43,926 --> 00:47:48,346
Speaker 4: he asked me to write was our story. And our

832
00:47:48,426 --> 00:47:52,386
Speaker 4: story was very specific because he used to have me

833
00:47:52,486 --> 00:47:55,166
Speaker 4: tell it to him just some nights. He'd say, tell

834
00:47:55,206 --> 00:47:57,826
Speaker 4: me our story. And we'd be at the Chelsea and

835
00:47:57,846 --> 00:48:00,606
Speaker 4: maybe we wouldn't have enough to eat and couldn't sleep.

836
00:48:00,666 --> 00:48:02,406
Speaker 4: And he'd say, tell me our story. And so I

837
00:48:02,446 --> 00:48:05,506
Speaker 4: would start, well, there was a girl. She wanted to

838
00:48:05,546 --> 00:48:07,786
Speaker 4: be an artist and she came to New York City.

839
00:48:08,466 --> 00:48:12,046
Speaker 4: And then I'd tell how we met and keep updating it.

840
00:48:12,436 --> 00:48:14,316
Speaker 4: So I knew what he meant by our story. It

841
00:48:14,376 --> 00:48:17,096
Speaker 4: was sort of a game that we played. So yeah,

842
00:48:17,216 --> 00:48:20,076
Speaker 4: he said, will you write our story? And I said,

843
00:48:20,096 --> 00:48:22,616
Speaker 4: do you want me to? And he said, you have to,

844
00:48:22,636 --> 00:48:25,496
Speaker 4: no one else can write it. And I perceived what

845
00:48:25,536 --> 00:48:29,896
Speaker 4: he wanted wasn't just for him, you know, our story

846
00:48:29,956 --> 00:48:33,756
Speaker 4: or the romance of our friendship, but also the genesis

847
00:48:33,816 --> 00:48:37,606
Speaker 4: of Robert as an artist. Because I knew more than anybody,

848
00:48:37,706 --> 00:48:41,136
Speaker 4: I lived with them. I watched him work for 12,

849
00:48:41,136 --> 00:48:45,276
Speaker 4: 13 hours sometimes on one drawing. We went through so

850
00:48:45,336 --> 00:48:49,756
Speaker 4: many different, shed so many skins together that I knew

851
00:48:50,816 --> 00:48:52,216
Speaker 4: that I had the information.

852
00:48:52,856 --> 00:48:55,166
Speaker 3: I knew that I had lived it. We had lived it.

853
00:48:55,816 --> 00:49:00,056
Speaker 4: So I promised him I'd do it, really not knowing

854
00:49:00,586 --> 00:49:02,666
Speaker 4: how I'd do it. I didn't have a book contract.

855
00:49:02,726 --> 00:49:10,276
Speaker 4: I didn't have any connection with writing a nonfiction book.

856
00:49:10,796 --> 00:49:14,436
Speaker 4: But then a series of things happened. My pianist, who

857
00:49:14,496 --> 00:49:18,626
Speaker 4: I really loved, who was only 37, died suddenly of

858
00:49:18,816 --> 00:49:24,326
Speaker 4: a pulmonary defect, which was terrible. When Robert died, I

859
00:49:24,366 --> 00:49:28,026
Speaker 4: had just had my second child. And then my husband

860
00:49:28,066 --> 00:49:32,416
Speaker 4: started being ill. And, you know, by the end of 94,

861
00:49:32,416 --> 00:49:36,206
Speaker 4: my husband died. My brother died also of the same

862
00:49:36,296 --> 00:49:42,386
Speaker 4: pulmonary defect as just by chance of Richard's soul. For

863
00:49:42,426 --> 00:49:47,186
Speaker 4: the next years, my preoccupation was how to take care

864
00:49:47,306 --> 00:49:50,236
Speaker 4: of my children. You know, I couldn't live the same

865
00:49:50,296 --> 00:49:53,446
Speaker 4: way that Fred and I had lived because I don't drive.

866
00:49:54,026 --> 00:49:57,106
Speaker 4: I didn't have a support system, a big support system

867
00:49:57,386 --> 00:50:01,286
Speaker 4: in Michigan. So I decided to take our children back

868
00:50:01,346 --> 00:50:05,876
Speaker 4: to New York and find work. So the book was

869
00:50:05,916 --> 00:50:11,896
Speaker 4: set aside. And then finally, I met an editor, Betsy Lerner,

870
00:50:12,756 --> 00:50:16,616
Speaker 4: who became my, not only my best friend, but my

871
00:50:16,676 --> 00:50:20,746
Speaker 4: savior at the time because she got me a really,

872
00:50:21,086 --> 00:50:26,206
Speaker 4: really great contract to write the Robert book, which gave

873
00:50:26,266 --> 00:50:30,596
Speaker 4: me some income. But I had so much trouble writing it.

874
00:50:31,046 --> 00:50:35,576
Speaker 4: I was still processing all the loss around me. My

875
00:50:35,656 --> 00:50:39,556
Speaker 4: life had changed again. I was now performing again, but

876
00:50:39,596 --> 00:50:44,216
Speaker 4: without my brother, without my pianist, and having two kids.

877
00:50:45,096 --> 00:50:50,266
Speaker 4: So I was negotiating a very hard C. But eventually

878
00:50:50,346 --> 00:50:54,446
Speaker 4: Betsy helped. She was my editor through that process and

879
00:50:54,466 --> 00:50:57,546
Speaker 4: it took a while. So he asked me to write

880
00:50:57,586 --> 00:51:02,226
Speaker 4: it in 89 and it came out 2010, which can

881
00:51:02,276 --> 00:51:05,296
Speaker 4: give you some idea of what a struggle it was

882
00:51:05,376 --> 00:51:08,456
Speaker 4: to write it. Also, I wanted it to be, I

883
00:51:08,536 --> 00:51:11,536
Speaker 4: wanted him to be something he would have been proud of.

884
00:51:12,496 --> 00:51:17,636
Speaker 4: I wanted it to be as accurate as possible and

885
00:51:17,696 --> 00:51:21,986
Speaker 4: to give people a sense not just of Robert and I,

886
00:51:22,246 --> 00:51:25,186
Speaker 4: Robert's work, but the atmosphere of our time.

887
00:51:25,816 --> 00:51:27,506
Speaker 3: So there were a lot of challenges.

888
00:51:28,416 --> 00:51:29,476
Speaker 2: And emotionally difficult.

889
00:51:29,796 --> 00:51:33,096
Speaker 4: It was emotionally difficult because it's sort of like bringing

890
00:51:33,196 --> 00:51:37,136
Speaker 4: Robert to life for the people was also sad. It

891
00:51:37,196 --> 00:51:42,056
Speaker 4: was painful, you know, and also reverberated other losses. But

892
00:51:42,116 --> 00:51:44,916
Speaker 4: I was so happy. I can't tell you how happy

893
00:51:44,976 --> 00:51:47,436
Speaker 4: I was because I vowed to him I would do it.

894
00:51:48,396 --> 00:51:51,876
Speaker 4: So I completed my vow. I did as I promised.

895
00:51:52,456 --> 00:51:56,276
Speaker 4: And once again, it's just, you know, when we did Horses,

896
00:51:56,396 --> 00:51:58,516
Speaker 4: I just thought, well, we'll do a record and some,

897
00:51:58,836 --> 00:52:02,536
Speaker 4: I was hoping like, you know, a small disenfranchised group

898
00:52:02,576 --> 00:52:04,796
Speaker 4: of people would like it, you know, would dig it,

899
00:52:04,896 --> 00:52:07,136
Speaker 4: you know, and that would be it. And with this

900
00:52:07,236 --> 00:52:10,206
Speaker 4: book also, I thought, well, a certain group of people

901
00:52:10,256 --> 00:52:12,326
Speaker 4: will like it, but that's okay.

902
00:52:12,426 --> 00:52:13,136
Speaker 3: I've done it.

903
00:52:13,226 --> 00:52:16,666
Speaker 4: I've done my best, but somehow I don't really to

904
00:52:16,706 --> 00:52:19,636
Speaker 4: this day understand, but I mean, it won a National

905
00:52:19,676 --> 00:52:23,796
Speaker 4: Book Award and it's sold over well over a million

906
00:52:23,856 --> 00:52:28,556
Speaker 4: copies globally. It's in 43 languages. And to this date,

907
00:52:29,056 --> 00:52:32,466
Speaker 4: the most successful thing I ever did. I mean, I've

908
00:52:32,526 --> 00:52:35,626
Speaker 4: never even had a gold record. Even horses didn't go gold.

909
00:52:36,006 --> 00:52:39,326
Speaker 4: I don't have one gold record. And I'm not complaining

910
00:52:39,366 --> 00:52:44,846
Speaker 4: about that. I'm just simply, in comparison, Just Kids eclipsed

911
00:52:45,466 --> 00:52:47,836
Speaker 4: in terms of I don't know how other way to

912
00:52:47,896 --> 00:52:51,326
Speaker 4: say it, but success in that kind of success, it

913
00:52:51,466 --> 00:52:53,146
Speaker 4: eclipsed everything.

914
00:52:52,866 --> 00:52:53,426
Speaker 3: Else I did.

915
00:52:54,066 --> 00:52:54,886
Speaker 2: It's a masterpiece.

916
00:52:55,486 --> 00:52:55,966
Speaker 1: Oh, thanks.

917
00:52:58,046 --> 00:52:58,486
Speaker 3: You know what?

918
00:52:58,546 --> 00:53:03,566
Speaker 4: Johnny Depp was my first reader. And I actually was staying.

919
00:53:03,626 --> 00:53:07,896
Speaker 4: I was struggling with the end of it so much.

920
00:53:08,576 --> 00:53:10,636
Speaker 4: And I just needed to get away. And he has

921
00:53:10,696 --> 00:53:13,756
Speaker 4: a compound in the south of France. So.

922
00:53:14,276 --> 00:53:15,336
Speaker 3: He let me come to.

923
00:53:15,256 --> 00:53:20,436
Speaker 4: The compound and they have, he and Vanessa had renovated

924
00:53:20,476 --> 00:53:24,536
Speaker 4: a little chapel into a guest house. And he, you know,

925
00:53:24,596 --> 00:53:28,376
Speaker 4: I stayed there until I finished it. And every day

926
00:53:28,436 --> 00:53:30,976
Speaker 4: he would just even, he'd bring me like, because they

927
00:53:31,166 --> 00:53:33,916
Speaker 4: had a cook there, bring me a little tray of

928
00:53:33,956 --> 00:53:38,566
Speaker 4: food and leave it outside. And finally I finished it

929
00:53:38,606 --> 00:53:39,326
Speaker 4: and I came out.

930
00:53:39,366 --> 00:53:40,326
Speaker 2: How long were you there?

931
00:53:41,146 --> 00:53:43,966
Speaker 3: I don't know, a month. I don't know. I actually,

932
00:53:44,066 --> 00:53:45,456
Speaker 3: I don't remember. Yeah.

933
00:53:45,976 --> 00:53:49,736
Speaker 4: But when I finished it and then I called in

934
00:53:50,696 --> 00:53:54,196
Speaker 4: all of my changes or any, you know, I went

935
00:53:54,216 --> 00:53:54,996
Speaker 4: through the whole thing.

936
00:53:55,096 --> 00:53:55,636
Speaker 3: It was done.

937
00:53:56,116 --> 00:54:01,186
Speaker 4: It was absolutely done. And I had my manuscript, you know,

938
00:54:01,796 --> 00:54:05,766
Speaker 4: with all these, all the little changes and stuff. And

939
00:54:05,886 --> 00:54:07,446
Speaker 4: he came to the door and I gave it to

940
00:54:07,506 --> 00:54:10,686
Speaker 4: him and I said, it's done. And he was the first,

941
00:54:10,846 --> 00:54:14,106
Speaker 4: other than Betsy or the publisher, the first person to

942
00:54:14,166 --> 00:54:18,946
Speaker 4: read it. And then he disappeared for like 30 hours

943
00:54:19,046 --> 00:54:22,016
Speaker 4: or something. And then he came back, he knocked on

944
00:54:22,036 --> 00:54:25,016
Speaker 4: the door and I opened it and he said, it's

945
00:54:25,056 --> 00:54:26,216
Speaker 4: a fucking masterpiece.

946
00:54:26,956 --> 00:54:28,876
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh my God.

947
00:54:29,436 --> 00:54:31,756
Speaker 4: And I only mentioned that because you said that, you know,

948
00:54:31,776 --> 00:54:35,416
Speaker 4: I'm not bragging or anything, but he said that. And

949
00:54:35,456 --> 00:54:38,736
Speaker 4: he like meant it with all his heart. And I thought, well,

950
00:54:39,166 --> 00:54:40,936
Speaker 4: I don't know who's going to like this book, but

951
00:54:40,976 --> 00:54:44,436
Speaker 4: Johnny likes it. And he's well-read, you know, so.

952
00:54:44,776 --> 00:54:47,576
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because a book like yourself has

953
00:54:47,656 --> 00:54:53,536
Speaker 2: many different lives. You know, it's simultaneously a love story,

954
00:54:54,096 --> 00:54:56,166
Speaker 2: but it's also this picture of New York. It's the

955
00:54:56,206 --> 00:55:00,046
Speaker 2: best picture of 70s New York that I've ever read.

956
00:55:00,586 --> 00:55:03,746
Speaker 2: If you had no interest in the love story part

957
00:55:04,346 --> 00:55:07,856
Speaker 2: or no interest in you or Robert Mapplethorpe, You could

958
00:55:07,976 --> 00:55:09,876
Speaker 2: still read it and think it's a masterpiece.

959
00:55:10,216 --> 00:55:11,156
Speaker 3: Oh, that's so nice.

960
00:55:11,176 --> 00:55:13,536
Speaker 2: But it goes back to a question I asked at

961
00:55:13,576 --> 00:55:16,536
Speaker 2: the very beginning is that always in New York, the

962
00:55:16,556 --> 00:55:18,196
Speaker 2: weird thing about New York is the people who see

963
00:55:18,216 --> 00:55:22,516
Speaker 2: it most clearly and beautifully and live it most are

964
00:55:22,536 --> 00:55:26,456
Speaker 2: the outsiders, the ones who didn't come to New York.

965
00:55:26,476 --> 00:55:28,856
Speaker 4: That's interesting that you should say that. And I think

966
00:55:29,156 --> 00:55:33,636
Speaker 4: perhaps it's because for myself, but I think I could

967
00:55:33,696 --> 00:55:37,346
Speaker 4: see that like, even in the people that really struggled

968
00:55:37,446 --> 00:55:40,606
Speaker 4: back then, you know, I would see like Candy Darling

969
00:55:40,646 --> 00:55:43,866
Speaker 4: and Jackie Curtis and all these different artists that came

970
00:55:43,946 --> 00:55:49,256
Speaker 4: from all different places. For myself, it was gratitude because

971
00:55:49,356 --> 00:55:52,236
Speaker 4: I was, you know, where I came from in South Jersey,

972
00:55:52,316 --> 00:55:55,496
Speaker 4: there was no real culture there, not even a good library.

973
00:55:56,156 --> 00:55:58,096
Speaker 3: No cafe, no bookstore.

974
00:55:58,736 --> 00:56:01,436
Speaker 4: There was, you know, you went to Philadelphia, you could

975
00:56:01,456 --> 00:56:03,996
Speaker 4: get on a bus and go to Philadelphia for culture.

976
00:56:04,966 --> 00:56:09,466
Speaker 4: But day to day, and also because I was a

977
00:56:09,526 --> 00:56:11,886
Speaker 4: different kind of, I was sort of a bohemian kid.

978
00:56:12,606 --> 00:56:14,866
Speaker 3: And, you know, I was, looked different.

979
00:56:14,926 --> 00:56:17,186
Speaker 4: You know, I grew up when, you know, people tease

980
00:56:17,246 --> 00:56:20,366
Speaker 4: their hair into beehives and, you know, wore a lot

981
00:56:20,406 --> 00:56:22,806
Speaker 4: of makeup. And there was a certain look to the

982
00:56:23,226 --> 00:56:28,296
Speaker 4: late 50s, early 60s, mid 60s. But I was, mentally,

983
00:56:28,316 --> 00:56:32,116
Speaker 4: I was not from my own culture. I loved the

984
00:56:32,156 --> 00:56:36,296
Speaker 4: people that I grew up with. They were awesome, and

985
00:56:36,356 --> 00:56:39,556
Speaker 4: there were great things about where I came from, and

986
00:56:39,596 --> 00:56:44,436
Speaker 4: I think about it very nostalgically. But culturally, there was nothing,

987
00:56:45,006 --> 00:56:48,296
Speaker 4: and there was no work and no real culture and

988
00:56:49,106 --> 00:56:50,666
Speaker 4: not a lot of people of a like.

989
00:56:50,526 --> 00:56:53,106
Speaker 3: Mind, no real community.

990
00:56:53,706 --> 00:56:56,886
Speaker 4: And going to New York and sitting in the East

991
00:56:56,946 --> 00:56:58,966
Speaker 4: Village for a couple of nights with no work, just

992
00:56:59,606 --> 00:57:03,506
Speaker 4: literally roaming around looking for work, falling asleep on stoops,

993
00:57:03,956 --> 00:57:07,436
Speaker 4: waking up, watching all these people, all the, these people

994
00:57:07,476 --> 00:57:09,826
Speaker 4: that were so, you know, they all look like they were, um,

995
00:57:10,126 --> 00:57:13,126
Speaker 4: they could have been in, uh, Sergeant Pepper on the

996
00:57:13,166 --> 00:57:15,866
Speaker 4: cover of Sergeant Pepper, you know, wearing tie dye or

997
00:57:15,926 --> 00:57:19,726
Speaker 4: bell bottoms and people were smoking pot and books everywhere

998
00:57:19,786 --> 00:57:23,206
Speaker 4: and reading Allen Ginsberg and playing Ornette Coleman, you know,

999
00:57:23,226 --> 00:57:25,856
Speaker 4: it's just, uh, you know, and here in like, uh,

1000
00:57:26,356 --> 00:57:30,946
Speaker 4: Jefferson airplane, like in boom boxes or it was just, uh,

1001
00:57:31,596 --> 00:57:33,696
Speaker 4: it was such a swirl for a person like me

1002
00:57:34,116 --> 00:57:38,226
Speaker 4: to enter. And so many great things happened to me

1003
00:57:39,106 --> 00:57:42,346
Speaker 4: in New York. You know, nothing really bad happened to

1004
00:57:42,386 --> 00:57:45,286
Speaker 4: me in New York. Bad things happened to people I knew.

1005
00:57:46,026 --> 00:57:48,966
Speaker 4: But for me, it was just, I met so many

1006
00:57:49,026 --> 00:57:53,446
Speaker 4: great people. I met great teachers, great artists, and poets.

1007
00:57:54,146 --> 00:57:56,706
Speaker 4: I mean, not that I got friends with them, but

1008
00:57:56,766 --> 00:57:59,996
Speaker 4: I mean, I got to shake hands with Auden.

1009
00:58:00,236 --> 00:58:02,396
Speaker 3: You know, it's just like you never knew New York City.

1010
00:58:02,526 --> 00:58:04,366
Speaker 3: All these people were just there.

1011
00:58:04,426 --> 00:58:08,966
Speaker 4: There wasn't people, paparazzis and people asking for cell phone pictures.

1012
00:58:09,706 --> 00:58:12,386
Speaker 4: I remember one day I went to the, I was

1013
00:58:12,946 --> 00:58:16,456
Speaker 4: given out flyers or something on the steps of the

1014
00:58:16,796 --> 00:58:19,496
Speaker 4: Metropolitan Museum of Art. And then I was walking down

1015
00:58:19,656 --> 00:58:25,356
Speaker 4: Fifth Avenue. Coming up this way was Lee Razuel, Jacqueline Onassis,

1016
00:58:25,696 --> 00:58:31,926
Speaker 4: and Nourieff. Walking together, just talking. And I was like, oh,

1017
00:58:31,956 --> 00:58:34,916
Speaker 4: my God. And you just pass them by and think, wow,

1018
00:58:35,106 --> 00:58:38,306
Speaker 4: that was cool, you know. When I worked at Scribner's,

1019
00:58:38,386 --> 00:58:41,346
Speaker 4: I used to wait on Katharine Hepburn. I waited on

1020
00:58:41,366 --> 00:58:42,946
Speaker 4: Elizabeth Taylor and.

1021
00:58:42,926 --> 00:58:44,526
Speaker 3: Richard Burton, you know.

1022
00:58:44,626 --> 00:58:47,646
Speaker 4: It's just these, all these people, and it was, but

1023
00:58:47,666 --> 00:58:50,816
Speaker 4: there was nobody running around and grabbing at them and

1024
00:58:50,856 --> 00:58:53,776
Speaker 4: taking their picture. It was just, New York was a

1025
00:58:53,896 --> 00:58:57,766
Speaker 4: pretty cool place, you know. And nobody asked for it.

1026
00:58:57,766 --> 00:59:02,456
Speaker 4: It was just considered uncool. Just considered uncool. You just

1027
00:59:02,516 --> 00:59:06,316
Speaker 4: didn't do that. You see Paul McCartney sitting in a barstool.

1028
00:59:06,916 --> 00:59:09,316
Speaker 4: You just didn't bug him. You just didn't do that.

1029
00:59:09,336 --> 00:59:12,456
Speaker 4: You know, it's a whole different world now. But the

1030
00:59:12,526 --> 00:59:15,846
Speaker 4: fact that, you know, you could get apartments so cheap,

1031
00:59:16,646 --> 00:59:20,646
Speaker 4: you could get a job, you could meet like... like-minded people.

1032
00:59:21,286 --> 00:59:24,106
Speaker 4: I have a lot of gratitude for that period. I

1033
00:59:24,126 --> 00:59:27,086
Speaker 4: have a lot of gratitude for the city in general,

1034
00:59:27,436 --> 00:59:31,356
Speaker 4: for the climate in general, for the community in general.

1035
00:59:32,276 --> 00:59:34,816
Speaker 3: There was a lot of rough spots, believe me.

1036
00:59:34,896 --> 00:59:39,966
Speaker 4: But the overall... opportunity I'm very grateful for. And I

1037
00:59:40,026 --> 00:59:44,156
Speaker 4: think when you have gratitude, you're going to look at

1038
00:59:44,196 --> 00:59:44,896
Speaker 4: things different.

1039
00:59:45,856 --> 00:59:47,736
Speaker 2: We have a little time left. Talk a little bit

1040
00:59:48,156 --> 00:59:51,376
Speaker 2: about what you're up to now. There's like, there's Patti

1041
00:59:51,396 --> 00:59:55,496
Speaker 2: Smith in my inbox. You're in my life now. Tell

1042
00:59:55,516 --> 00:59:57,176
Speaker 2: me a little about this. It's very exciting.

1043
00:59:57,836 --> 01:00:04,466
Speaker 4: Well, during the pandemic, March 9th, we played the Fillmore West.

1044
01:00:04,686 --> 01:00:07,096
Speaker 4: We did two nights at the Fillmore. Then we headed

1045
01:00:07,156 --> 01:00:10,066
Speaker 4: to Seattle to do another show. And then we were

1046
01:00:10,126 --> 01:00:12,946
Speaker 4: about to embark on a world tour. I wanted to

1047
01:00:13,006 --> 01:00:15,046
Speaker 4: do a world tour because I, at that point I

1048
01:00:15,086 --> 01:00:19,326
Speaker 4: was like 72 or whatever three. And I felt it

1049
01:00:19,366 --> 01:00:24,236
Speaker 4: was important to, while I still had good voice and

1050
01:00:24,276 --> 01:00:27,216
Speaker 4: a lot of energy to do at least one more

1051
01:00:28,036 --> 01:00:31,776
Speaker 4: fairly big tour. And it was really a world tour. Well,

1052
01:00:31,816 --> 01:00:33,796
Speaker 4: we flew to Seattle and then I woke up in

1053
01:00:33,836 --> 01:00:37,636
Speaker 4: the morning and, and, uh, I put on the news,

1054
01:00:38,026 --> 01:00:40,766
Speaker 4: and it was the mayor of Seattle or the governor,

1055
01:00:41,466 --> 01:00:44,366
Speaker 4: and he was telling how they were going to go

1056
01:00:44,386 --> 01:00:48,366
Speaker 4: into lockdown. He said, the sold-out show at State Theater,

1057
01:00:48,746 --> 01:00:50,856
Speaker 4: Patti Smith and her band, is canceled.

1058
01:00:51,006 --> 01:00:52,176
Speaker 3: And I was like, what?

1059
01:00:53,136 --> 01:00:55,156
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't know what was really going on.

1060
01:00:55,336 --> 01:00:58,816
Speaker 4: I knew something. I knew the aura of things. And

1061
01:00:58,936 --> 01:01:02,776
Speaker 4: so then we left and we went home. And I thought, okay,

1062
01:01:02,796 --> 01:01:05,816
Speaker 4: we have to be in quarantine for 14 days. We

1063
01:01:05,876 --> 01:01:07,956
Speaker 4: have jobs coming up at the end of March and

1064
01:01:07,976 --> 01:01:10,226
Speaker 4: then we were going to Australia, but I thought it

1065
01:01:10,236 --> 01:01:14,246
Speaker 4: would be okay. Never dreaming that I wouldn't be leaving

1066
01:01:14,646 --> 01:01:17,286
Speaker 4: my house for almost two years, hardly.

1067
01:01:17,966 --> 01:01:19,466
Speaker 3: And that's what happened.

1068
01:01:19,606 --> 01:01:23,226
Speaker 4: So because I was, you know, I was 73 and

1069
01:01:23,266 --> 01:01:26,906
Speaker 4: I have a bronchial condition, I was deemed a high risk.

1070
01:01:27,646 --> 01:01:31,846
Speaker 4: So I'd obviously be really careful. New York City, really,

1071
01:01:31,866 --> 01:01:36,516
Speaker 4: I mean, the amount of illness and death was like

1072
01:01:36,576 --> 01:01:39,786
Speaker 4: a real thing. And of course, I understand the nature

1073
01:01:39,806 --> 01:01:44,286
Speaker 4: of pandemics. I had studied the Spanish flu epidemic. I

1074
01:01:44,346 --> 01:01:50,626
Speaker 4: was quarantined as a child with a bird flu and tuberculosis.

1075
01:01:50,726 --> 01:01:54,406
Speaker 4: And so I knew a lot about quarantines, what it

1076
01:01:54,466 --> 01:01:57,436
Speaker 4: all meant, but I still never imagined it was going

1077
01:01:57,456 --> 01:02:02,116
Speaker 4: to go on for so long. And I'm a restless person.

1078
01:02:02,986 --> 01:02:05,486
Speaker 4: I like movement. I had my little suitcase packed to

1079
01:02:05,506 --> 01:02:10,186
Speaker 4: go away for a year, practically. And it was a

1080
01:02:10,226 --> 01:02:12,476
Speaker 4: little hard for me to settle down.

1081
01:02:13,716 --> 01:02:17,156
Speaker 3: So I just started writing, as usual. I just wrote

1082
01:02:17,276 --> 01:02:17,756
Speaker 3: every day.

1083
01:02:18,416 --> 01:02:24,716
Speaker 4: And I was approached by someone through Betsy from Substack,

1084
01:02:25,396 --> 01:02:31,036
Speaker 4: which is a subscription-based service. And I thought this was

1085
01:02:31,176 --> 01:02:35,836
Speaker 4: interesting because I had been writing this diary, sort of

1086
01:02:35,856 --> 01:02:39,556
Speaker 4: a pandemic diary, but I envisioned it to go to

1087
01:02:40,296 --> 01:02:44,536
Speaker 4: some other places, to move into some parallel worlds, and

1088
01:02:45,376 --> 01:02:48,196
Speaker 4: I was interested to see where it would go. And

1089
01:02:48,236 --> 01:02:51,756
Speaker 4: the idea of doing something episodic I thought was really cool,

1090
01:02:52,516 --> 01:02:56,576
Speaker 4: you know, because like Arthur Conan Doyle and, of course,

1091
01:02:56,636 --> 01:03:02,036
Speaker 4: Dickens and then Louisa May Alcott, even Jo March, her character–

1092
01:03:02,526 --> 01:03:05,866
Speaker 4: They did things episodically, and that's how they were paid,

1093
01:03:06,146 --> 01:03:07,346
Speaker 4: by the word back then.

1094
01:03:08,246 --> 01:03:09,186
Speaker 3: And I thought it.

1095
01:03:09,146 --> 01:03:12,026
Speaker 4: Would be real interesting, and, well, it would be a

1096
01:03:12,086 --> 01:03:16,376
Speaker 4: challenge to be able to deliver things weekly because I

1097
01:03:17,096 --> 01:03:20,016
Speaker 4: had been used to being on the road and getting

1098
01:03:20,056 --> 01:03:25,016
Speaker 4: more sporadic as a writer. So I accepted that challenge,

1099
01:03:25,876 --> 01:03:27,856
Speaker 4: and I found it took me a little while to

1100
01:03:27,916 --> 01:03:32,286
Speaker 4: figure out what to give the people and what they liked.

1101
01:03:32,946 --> 01:03:35,406
Speaker 4: But I've been there almost a year and I actually

1102
01:03:35,466 --> 01:03:39,546
Speaker 4: love it. And it is growing in terms of what

1103
01:03:39,706 --> 01:03:42,466
Speaker 4: I can offer the people because I can do little

1104
01:03:42,546 --> 01:03:47,196
Speaker 4: videos live in time, just talk to the people or

1105
01:03:47,336 --> 01:03:50,356
Speaker 4: read them a poem. I can do any kind of

1106
01:03:50,496 --> 01:03:54,716
Speaker 4: audio I want, send them stories, send them pictures, read

1107
01:03:54,756 --> 01:03:55,576
Speaker 4: their comments.

1108
01:03:56,196 --> 01:03:56,976
Speaker 3: And that's what I do.

1109
01:03:56,996 --> 01:04:00,816
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm I'm developing it as we go along,

1110
01:04:01,086 --> 01:04:04,096
Speaker 4: and I'm letting the people at this point help me.

1111
01:04:04,876 --> 01:04:06,776
Speaker 3: Sort of guide me as to where I should go.

1112
01:04:08,116 --> 01:04:12,936
Speaker 4: So the melting is my favorite part, although it's not

1113
01:04:13,006 --> 01:04:16,806
Speaker 4: necessarily the most popular part, but it's my favorite because

1114
01:04:16,866 --> 01:04:20,626
Speaker 4: it's such an interesting challenge. And I love to read

1115
01:04:20,666 --> 01:04:24,136
Speaker 4: the people's comments. Because even if you have only 50

1116
01:04:24,136 --> 01:04:29,136
Speaker 4: comments or maybe 90 or maybe 30, when you write

1117
01:04:29,176 --> 01:04:32,006
Speaker 4: a book or you put out a book, you might

1118
01:04:32,226 --> 01:04:34,826
Speaker 4: get reviewed a couple of times or maybe somebody on

1119
01:04:34,866 --> 01:04:37,526
Speaker 4: the street tells you they like it or you can

1120
01:04:37,566 --> 01:04:41,586
Speaker 4: look at the sales. But you're not really hearing any

1121
01:04:41,646 --> 01:04:47,766
Speaker 4: kind of real intellectual feedback. And I love the comments

1122
01:04:47,826 --> 01:04:51,316
Speaker 4: that people write. Sometimes the comments are more poetic than

1123
01:04:51,356 --> 01:04:55,296
Speaker 4: the post I've done. And sometimes they're really interesting or

1124
01:04:55,376 --> 01:05:00,296
Speaker 4: they really display a real understanding of what I'm doing

1125
01:05:00,376 --> 01:05:04,716
Speaker 4: because sometimes I'm attempting something a bit abstract and they're

1126
01:05:04,756 --> 01:05:08,446
Speaker 4: very accepting because it's really like at this point of

1127
01:05:08,526 --> 01:05:12,546
Speaker 4: my melting, it's regressional right now and I'm writing it

1128
01:05:12,606 --> 01:05:14,566
Speaker 4: in time and I don't really know what I'm going

1129
01:05:14,586 --> 01:05:17,846
Speaker 4: to write each week. And so it's sort of like,

1130
01:05:18,646 --> 01:05:22,106
Speaker 4: not like a drug, but it's, it can move into

1131
01:05:22,126 --> 01:05:26,506
Speaker 4: a hallucinatory places and the people there, even if it's

1132
01:05:26,546 --> 01:05:30,936
Speaker 4: a small amount, they're into it. And that's really inspiring,

1133
01:05:31,436 --> 01:05:34,416
Speaker 4: you know, and it just like yesterday I was supposed

1134
01:05:34,456 --> 01:05:37,676
Speaker 4: to do the melting, but it was my wedding anniversary. Truthfully,

1135
01:05:37,736 --> 01:05:40,476
Speaker 4: I was, sometimes I get a little sad. I really

1136
01:05:40,516 --> 01:05:45,456
Speaker 4: miss Fred. So I did a little post for Fred yesterday. And, uh,

1137
01:05:45,666 --> 01:05:49,446
Speaker 4: so the mountains a day late, but it was really, uh,

1138
01:05:50,546 --> 01:05:52,806
Speaker 4: A lifesaver for me. I mean, it was a nice

1139
01:05:52,886 --> 01:05:56,806
Speaker 4: thing to have a job, you know, because I lost

1140
01:05:57,006 --> 01:06:00,236
Speaker 4: all of our work, which having a job helps me

1141
01:06:00,456 --> 01:06:04,096
Speaker 4: help others. But it wasn't just that, like to have

1142
01:06:04,816 --> 01:06:10,206
Speaker 4: any financial reward. It was being in lockdown, not seeing anybody,

1143
01:06:10,346 --> 01:06:15,406
Speaker 4: not going anywhere, and having some kind of feedback, creating

1144
01:06:15,466 --> 01:06:18,806
Speaker 4: for people and hearing from them. That was really good.

1145
01:06:19,166 --> 01:06:22,926
Speaker 4: I love my sub stack. I'm still developing it. And

1146
01:06:22,986 --> 01:06:26,586
Speaker 4: I think that I've gleaned that people really like knowing

1147
01:06:26,646 --> 01:06:29,806
Speaker 4: about music. So when the melting's over, what would I do?

1148
01:06:29,926 --> 01:06:33,366
Speaker 4: Maybe take song after song, you know, post a song,

1149
01:06:33,966 --> 01:06:36,646
Speaker 4: sing it to the people, tell them the story of

1150
01:06:36,706 --> 01:06:39,746
Speaker 4: how the song was written. There's so many different things

1151
01:06:39,786 --> 01:06:42,686
Speaker 4: that I can do if that's what the people like.

1152
01:06:43,666 --> 01:06:46,496
Speaker 4: And I also have my Instagram, which I also like.

1153
01:06:47,026 --> 01:06:49,736
Speaker 4: And they're my two social things.

1154
01:06:50,876 --> 01:06:53,756
Speaker 2: The latest iteration in the many lives of.

1155
01:06:53,756 --> 01:06:56,646
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, I never, you know, I don't really,

1156
01:06:57,566 --> 01:06:59,386
Speaker 4: it took me long enough just to get a cell

1157
01:06:59,406 --> 01:07:03,346
Speaker 4: phone and then I wasn't engaging in any social media,

1158
01:07:03,386 --> 01:07:06,806
Speaker 4: but my daughter really suggested that I should have an

1159
01:07:06,926 --> 01:07:08,756
Speaker 4: Instagram and set it up for me.

1160
01:07:08,856 --> 01:07:10,096
Speaker 3: And it's so easy to do.

1161
01:07:10,676 --> 01:07:14,136
Speaker 4: And I really like it because I can suggest books

1162
01:07:14,456 --> 01:07:16,696
Speaker 4: or there's a lot of different things I can do

1163
01:07:16,976 --> 01:07:19,756
Speaker 4: in that small You know, it's just this little thing.

1164
01:07:19,796 --> 01:07:22,456
Speaker 4: You know, you put a picture and say a few words,

1165
01:07:22,536 --> 01:07:26,316
Speaker 4: but you can bring people a movie they never saw

1166
01:07:27,156 --> 01:07:29,916
Speaker 4: or remembering a certain person on their birthday.

1167
01:07:30,536 --> 01:07:31,296
Speaker 3: And I like that.

1168
01:07:31,876 --> 01:07:32,096
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1169
01:07:32,556 --> 01:07:35,876
Speaker 2: Patty, I think I've occupied you for long enough. Thank you.

1170
01:07:36,376 --> 01:07:38,826
Speaker 4: I haven't done a whole lot of interviews in the

1171
01:07:38,846 --> 01:07:41,786
Speaker 4: past couple years. And then I found the few that

1172
01:07:41,826 --> 01:07:45,086
Speaker 4: I've done. I tend to, like, I'm just talking away.

1173
01:07:45,366 --> 01:07:47,916
Speaker 2: No, this is fantastic. It was fantastic. And such an honor,

1174
01:07:47,976 --> 01:07:50,596
Speaker 2: by the way, since I'm such a fan of yours.

1175
01:07:50,716 --> 01:07:53,416
Speaker 4: That was so nice what you said about the book.

1176
01:07:53,616 --> 01:07:55,876
Speaker 2: I was the equivalent when I read that book of

1177
01:07:55,936 --> 01:07:57,276
Speaker 2: the guys falling from the ceiling.

1178
01:07:57,796 --> 01:07:57,956
Speaker 4: Oh.

1179
01:07:58,156 --> 01:08:00,936
Speaker 2: Thank you, Patti. This has been great. I really appreciate it.

1180
01:08:01,176 --> 01:08:06,806
Speaker 1: Good. Thanks to Patti Smith for sharing her inspiration and

1181
01:08:06,886 --> 01:08:09,866
Speaker 1: story with Malcolm. You can hear her new album and

1182
01:08:10,026 --> 01:08:12,606
Speaker 1: all of our favorite Patti Smith songs on a playlist

1183
01:08:12,706 --> 01:08:16,456
Speaker 1: at BrokenRecordPodcast.com. And be sure to check out her sub

1184
01:08:16,476 --> 01:08:21,836
Speaker 1: stack at pattysmith.substack.com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube

1185
01:08:21,876 --> 01:08:25,736
Speaker 1: channel at youtube.com slash broken record podcast, where you can

1186
01:08:25,776 --> 01:08:29,096
Speaker 1: find all of our new episodes. You can follow us

1187
01:08:29,156 --> 01:08:32,076
Speaker 1: on Twitter at broken record. Broken record is produced with

1188
01:08:32,136 --> 01:08:35,906
Speaker 1: help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talladay, Eric Sandler,

1189
01:08:36,006 --> 01:08:39,666
Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our

1190
01:08:39,706 --> 01:08:43,806
Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a production

1191
01:08:43,846 --> 01:08:46,546
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others

1192
01:08:46,566 --> 01:08:50,526
Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is

1193
01:08:50,546 --> 01:08:54,646
Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad-free

1194
01:08:54,686 --> 01:08:58,356
Speaker 1: listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on

1195
01:08:58,436 --> 01:09:02,036
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like the show, please

1196
01:09:02,076 --> 01:09:04,856
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1197
01:09:05,256 --> 01:09:07,656
Speaker 1: For Theme Music by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.