WEBVTT - Oversharing: Are You Doing Too Much or Too Little of It? with Dr. Leslie John (Harvard) 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.639 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:42.720 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, beautiful people, 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.880 I am. I'm just so happy this summer the podcast 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.240 has grown so tremendously. We haven't seen growth like this ever. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.480 It's been nuts. And also what's so cool is that 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:01.000 most people's podcasts get less views in the summer because like, 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.160 people are off their routines and stuff, and ours is 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.040 getting more. So I just wanted to say thank you. 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.640 Every time I zoom with one of you, which I 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.520 try to do like once a week, or any time 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.399 I meet you in real life. I'm just so amazed 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.400 by how smart and just so you're so awesome, like 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.640 by far the smartest, coolest listeners. And I don't say 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:29.600 that because you're mine. I just say it because it's 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.240 the truth. You all are amazing, and I'm so grateful 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.839 for the Curious Minds Club that we have curated here. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:39.840 So I want to get into today's episode. Is there 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:45.160 anything worse than a hangover? That groggy, cloudy, queasy confusion 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.320 and that looming feeling that you didn't quite act yourself, 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.760 or maybe you acted a little too much like yourself, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.360 you let that inner monologue slip out a little bit. 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.360 We've all been there, but today we're talking about a 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.440 different kind of hangover, and it's one that does't come 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:04.280 from what you drink, but rather what you said. That 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:10.799 is the vulnerability hangover. My therapist at one point called 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.720 it the shame hangover, but I like the vulnerability hangover. 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.760 It's that feeling that you shared a little too much 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:18.760 and you got a little too deep and now you're 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:24.799 filled with shame and dread. Researcher Brene Brown popularized this phrase, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.120 and she explained it in her twenty twelve ted talk 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.560 Do you guys remember that one? She talks about it 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.880 like it's this wave of shame, uncertainty, and self doubt 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.320 and it hits you after you've been a little too 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.040 emotionally exposed, and it can happen kind of out of 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.720 nowhere with friends, at work, and of course in dating. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.440 And here's where today's guest comes in. Today we have 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:51.000 award winning Harvard Business School professor and behavioral scientist, doctor 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.840 Leslie John. She wants us to stop and question that feeling, because, 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.639 as she puts it, while we're busy obsessing over the 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.320 risks of revealing too much, we rarely stop to consider 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.519 the cost of revealing too little. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.440 I come to believe that nine times out of ten, 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.680 what we think of as oversharing is actually just sharing. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.640 So we treat oversharing as it's this huge social sin, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.880 but most of the time it's actually just sharing. Like 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.360 when you think about it, almost anything is appropriate to 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.120 share in the right circumstances, with the right person at 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:27.840 the right time. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.560 Doctor John shares decades of research on why the conversations 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.680 we avoid and the truths that we push down and 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.520 the parts of ourselves that we keep hidden might be 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:42.000 doing more damage than the moments we wish we could unsay. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.840 She really dives deep into this topic in her book, 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:50.440 Revealing The Underrated Power of Oversharing. So today we're getting 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.840 into it all. Why vulnerability feels so deeply risky, how 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.280 to know when you've shared enough or not enough and why. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.920 The secret to deeper connections and better leadership and even 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:06.040 better decision making may not be saying less, but learning 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.440 how to reveal a little more. I want to warn 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.320 you I probably push back more in this interview than usual. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.800 And I really really enjoyed doctor John's book, but I 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.280 don't know if oversharing has helped me in life. I'm 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.599 not sure we really should be oversharing. Maybe there's a 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.240 time and a place, But listen. I think that's what 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.039 makes this episode so fun. We debate not only was 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.720 I really honest with her, but doctor John really held 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.400 space for my honesty, if that makes sense. She was 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.120 an awesome conversation partner. So it is time to question 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:47.200 everything with doctor Leslie John. Doctor John, your whole book 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.520 is about revealing, and I'm wondering if I can get 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.680 you to reveal something off the bat. I'm not talking 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.680 your deepest, darkest secret. I want to do that to you. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.839 But what's something that people wouldn't know from your Harvard bio? 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.960 Oh my goodness. The first thing that came to mind 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.520 was my first job was as a mascot for Boston Pizza. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.400 So one of those big furry guy costs you with 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.080 the helmet was this big. There was like a fan 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:19.000 inside giant purple monster chef guy. So people would not 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.800 know that from my Harvard profile. Wow. 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.520 I went to the University of Wisconsin and the rumor 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.600 was that all the Bucky the Badgers had tattoos on 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.080 their left butt cheek? Is that the same for you, 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:32.839 doctor John? 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:38.599 Fortunately now I actually don't have any tattoos. There's another reveal. 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.240 I was thinking that I should match you, not for 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.000 reciprocity necessarily, but just to connect. 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.560 I think this is perfect because the next one of 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:48.360 mine is more. So this is good. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.239 Okay, that's good. Let's see what is a good one 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.920 for me? I think. Okay, here's something I think about 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.200 all the time. There was a test that I cheated 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.480 on in call college. Wow, and I feel awful about it. 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.680 I think about it all the time. I wrote an 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.520 essay ahead of time, and I put it on my 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.160 phone and put it like in between my lap under 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.040 the desk and just rewrote the essay. And I just 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:16.080 I hate that I did that. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.240 Oh my gosh, thank you for sharing that. That is 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.240 so relatable, right, I'm sure many people have cheated on 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.400 high school college tests and just not gotten caught. And 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.200 who hasn't wanted to write like it's a lot. 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.200 But you know what's so funny about it is I 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:35.920 have a different understanding of cheating as an adult that 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.760 I did as a college student. Like at the time, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.880 it didn't feel like a big deal, and now I 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.560 think about it and I think it was such a 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.200 betrayal to myself, you. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.600 Know, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's growth obviously. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.800 Yeah, okay, So I'm curious, from your perspective, what did 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.920 that just do in conversation between two strangers, the reveal 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:57.880 that we each made. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.240 I mean, I feel connected to you. I feel a 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.599 sense of kinship, Like what you said is so relatable, 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.120 and it made me think of other things in my life. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.240 I mean, even what it made me think of is 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.160 and it's this instinct to reciprocate, to match and maybe 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.280 go a little deeper, which is exactly what you did 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.640 the way we started it off. What I thought then 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:25.480 was how I have this recurring dream. Actually I don't 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.880 think I've told anyone this. It's a recurring nightmare. I 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.720 get it. I feel like I get it. Once a 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:35.800 month or every other month, or something that I missed 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.560 one of my requirements in college and I am not graduating, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.840 or that I failed the course, or there's something that 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.640 it's like, I'm about to graduate, I'm supposed to graduate, 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:50.280 and then you're missing a credit. Like it's this deep. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.960 It's a recurring thing, right, so it must be something 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.720 deep in my soul. But that's that's one thing that 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.800 I thought of. But yeah, I think like the reciprocity 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:03.400 that is what you've just demonstrated is so fundamental to 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.960 how we forge bonds with others. When you take that 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.600 social risk of sharing something sensitive, you're showing me that 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.000 you trust me because you're relinquishing controls of the universe, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.920 and you're implicitly saying, I'm sharing this with you because 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.600 I trust you not to take advantage of me or 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.880 make a fool out of me, and because you did 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.280 that for me, then I trust you, and that trust 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.320 begets trust is like I just gave myself goosebumps? Is 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.320 that bad that I love this stuff? Clearly that's what 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.640 where the core of human connection is. And we know 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.840 that that's really fundamental to who we are and to thriving. 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:46.240 So reading your book, I just the little girl in 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.000 me felt so validated because I've built an entire career 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.400 around connection and only in the last few years can 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.640 sort of retrace my steps as to why. And one 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.000 of the things that stood out to me was that 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.480 you write about how we often played games like two 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.800 Truths in a Lie or truth or Dare or never 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.000 have I ever? I loved games growing up, and you 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.200 say that they actually give us permission to share something 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.280 about ourselves, and it feels a little safer to participately. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.000 Can you explain why that structure like a game makes 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:19.640 vulnerability feel less risky. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.199 Yeah, I mean, I think because inherently the frame of 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.680 a game is playfulness, and when we play games, we 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.439 are playful. When we play games, when we lose, or 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.080 when we get a little bit competitive yours truly, we 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.960 forgive each other, We laugh, we realize it's not super serious, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.120 and so I love having that mindset in general of 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.880 revealing it's a game, it's it shouldn't feel so high stakes, 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.600 and I have ideas on how to make it less 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.040 high stakes. But by explicitly making these disclosure games two 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.720 Truths and a Lie, I think they really embody that 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.200 that real need to make it playful. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.040 The high stakes environment that you just mentioned that doesn't 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.760 exist in games, I think very much exist in social media, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.240 and I had so many questions around it as I 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:09.000 was reading your book, because people are truly sharing their breakups, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.200 their diagnoses, their grief, their family drama, their dating lives, 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.520 their morning routines. Sometimes I watch strangers online and I'm like, wait, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.280 who am I watching doing this intimate stuff? I know? 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.840 And why some of it feels like a gift because 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.840 I'm like, oh, I'm normal people do that too, and 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.640 some of it feels like they're revealing too much. So 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.800 do you feel like in twenty twenty six or this year, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.959 we're becoming more honest or are we just more exposed? 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.480 Oh that's such a great question. I don't know that 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.120 we are becoming more honest. I do think the exposure, well, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.880 the exposure point is apt because you know, we have 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.440 so many more media to open up to and it's 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.000 so easy to do so. But I don't think exposure 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:03.480 is like true revealing or honesty or vulnerability necessarily right, 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:06.760 especially on social media. A lot of the times it 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:12.320 feels performative. Now that's not to say like social media. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:17.800 Can you can like podcasts, shares little videos as a 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.040 viewer of those, they can still do a lot. They 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.920 can be very reveally, you know they can. For example, 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.480 when people share sensitive intimate things make me feel less 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.040 alone in the world or right, they can have really 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.480 positive impacts. So it certainly can be reveally. But just 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.160 because someone confesses like a confessional does not equal to 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.480 me revealing if that makes. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.800 Sense sense, Well, it does. But I'm wondering if you 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.520 feel like it's shifted the way we make decisions, because 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.880 you're a decision scientist and I know you spent years 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.479 learning about what people decide to reveal. 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.160 Right, right, yes, so say more, say more about this 0:11:59.240 --> 0:11:59.959 idea of the shift. 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.440 Okay, I'm going to tell you an unhinged story. 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.360 Oh amazing, I love it. I have so many I know. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.160 I was out to lunch and I really like this friend. 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.440 So I want to preface this. But she told me 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:23.000 a story about past date she had, and he told 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:29.720 her that he had this very rare diagnosis, and ultimately 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.080 she told me her first thought she's a person on 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.120 the internet, and so her first thought when he told 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.400 her this was, oh, this is going to be my story, 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.320 this is my journey. He's going to die young, and 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.560 my story on the internet is going to be that 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.240 I am like a young widow and that's my journey. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.160 And I had like a sort of guttural reaction to it, 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.120 And I know she was kind of kidding, but I 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.160 do think that she's actually touching on something that a 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.600 lot of young people think about nowadays, which story something 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.840 happens immediately and then they think, ooh, how am I 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.839 gonna share this online? I think it's really shifted what 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.920 we share because there are rewards for sharing. 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:18.480 Now. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.880 Yeah, there was that one woman I forgot her name, 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.360 but she shared like one hundred videos on TikTok about 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.480 how this guy broke her heart and she ended up 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.840 with a TV pilot and signed to a major agency. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.240 And I think that started a wave of things where 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.880 people thought, Wow, I could really change my life by 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.120 sharing this deep, dark story or secret. And I don't 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:43.120 know if it's good or bad. 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:49.880 Yeah, yeah, I know, that's great. Yeah, I think so 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.320 it's interesting because the digital world, it's a very foreign 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.680 context for us. If you think, if I just go 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:02.480 super psychology here in evolution. Narrowly speaking, this is not 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.080 a medium that we are adept at navigating, right. We 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.839 know we've been interacting face to face for a very 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:10.960 long time, and so when it comes to deciding what 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.760 to share and what not to share, it's super confusing 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.160 online because it's a comp the rules are completely different, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.600 Like you don't you know, if you're standing and giving 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.880 a lecture talking to your beeat, you can see the people, 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.520 you can feel their presence. If you're posts like you have, 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:29.280 you cannot see the people. Like that's a huge disconnect 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.920 between how we've evolved to manage these things and how 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.720 it is online. So it's a completely foreign medium. We 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.080 don't really know what we're doing. And on top of that, 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.560 there's lots of design factors that are actually nutging us 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.080 to share more, right, that make it easy to share 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.320 a ton. And I'm with you in that it's there's 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.280 good and bad and you kind of have to take 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.320 the bad with the good or the good with the 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.640 bad in the sense that there are there are studies 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.440 of people who you know, they feel very lonely and 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.600 they've not able to get support, and then there's groups 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.920 like patients like Me or whatever social media groups that 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:09.360 help them to share what they're going through and feel 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.200 less alone in a way that they never would have 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.280 that otherwise. And so to the same point about the 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.960 woman who shared, was it a bunch of breakups? Yeah, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.320 not to make it seem like, oh whatever, a bunch 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:22.480 of breakups breakups. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.400 Well, it was like this guy who had cheated on her. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.680 It was like a one story cut into a bunch 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:27.400 of different parts. 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:33.200 Oh, so that like the people that receive that see 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.840 that they feel less alone. This is something that people 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.120 feel ashamed of when you get cheated, like people who 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.880 get those of us who have the misery of being 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.400 cheated on, like you kind of blame yourself and like 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.080 all these things. And so for someone to have the 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.480 courage to say that, and maybe one of the reasons 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.600 they said it is because these barriers of anxiety and 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.320 sharing are reduced somewhat in social media. Right, you can 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.160 get into problems obviously because it's permanent, oddly per and 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.440 all this, But the good of it is that she 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.760 had the courage to share something, and the people that 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.560 saw that they felt way less alone. And so that's 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.320 a very the facilitative kind of decision, right when the 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.920 environment around you is helping you to share, and that's 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:16.920 what I found in my research, where like lots of 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.360 design factors of digital context of social media like really 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.440 do make us feel a lot more comfortable revealing, which 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.880 can backfire, but it can also do a lot of 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.400 good to your point, And I think, like when we 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.520 think about how do we make the right decisions, I 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.240 think an important thing to consider is what is our goal? 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.040 What's our north star, what's our drive, what's our guiding force? 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.920 And maybe this woman part of it was to vent 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:48.720 catharsis and that so many studies have shown that saying 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.680 something out loud, writing a diary, saying to the world 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.960 in a post that helps you. The act of putting 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.840 your swirling, angry thoughts into words helps you to process them, 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.960 to feel better. It lowers your blood pressure, it increases 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.200 weird Like, there's so many benefits. I think a key thing, though, 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.920 is knowing your goal of why you're doing this right, 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.960 Like are you doing it? What's your purpose? And is 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.879 this way of doing it the way of accomplishing your purpose? 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:17.840 Because so often we just kind of say things, we 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.239 run through life without thinking through the decisions of what 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:21.680 we're sharing and when we're not sharing. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:26.200 But you've written that oversharing is sort of underrated. So 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.120 how do you tell the difference between reveling that connects 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.880 us and revealing that sort of performs connection. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.080 So we treat oversharing as it's this huge social sin, 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.479 but most of the time it's actually just sharing. And 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.280 when we think about, like, how do you distinguish between 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.080 the two, what's in the service of connection versus what's 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.480 more performative? I think a key part that makes it 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.439 of the service of connection is well the sincerity of 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:58.760 the goal, right and the situational awareness of reading the room. Like, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.040 when you think about it all, almost anything is appropriate 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.840 to share in the right circumstances with the right person 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:10.879 at the right time, even like talking about STDs okay, well, 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.040 doctor's office super appropriate. Maybe late at night when you're 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.000 joking around about funny things that have gone through your 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.479 life or funny mishaps with STDs. I don't know, Like 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.560 you can see that even this thing that's very normally 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.480 taboo most contexts, in the right place, at the right time, 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.480 it's entirely appropriate and in fact refreshing. And what I 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.520 found again and again in my research and in my 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:39.439 personal experiences is that the line like between like sharing 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.960 and oversharing. It's further than you think. So you can 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.320 go further than you kind of initially think you can 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.159 in terms of sharing. So my guidance to people is often, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.800 these are the words that I live by, reveal a 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.680 little bit more. A lot of the time. It's not 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:58.920 dump everything unannounced, unfiltered, unprocessed, with no prompting. No, no, no, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.040 it's what we do at the beginning. It's restros, it's 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.720 reading the room, it's and it's a little bit more, 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.920 not a lot more. Like one example might be this 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.000 is the thing, okay, so this people might often think 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.640 that's so oversharing feelings in the workplace, right, talking about 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.399 your feelings. And here's an example of when it's a 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.199 little bit more and super helpful. So a friend of 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.040 mine was recently telling me how she was at work 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.640 and they're sitting around they're in a meeting in person, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.320 and one of those meetings that's super frustrating, it's not 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.760 going anywhere, just kind of exasperated, but like everyone is 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.840 like holding it in and not expressing her frustration, just 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.600 kind of pretending. But then she thought, no, I'm going 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.440 to reveal a little bit more so. She just said, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.199 you know, everyone, I'm feeling quite frustrated. So this is 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.000 something that we don't typically share in a worry like frustration, 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.520 a strong feeling. Right, we think that's an overshare. But 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.520 when she said that, she said, the whole meeting changed. 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.119 Why Because it turns out, if you're feeling something strong 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.040 and you're in the same I'm experiencing the same reality. 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.800 Other people are feeling the same thing, and it's a 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.919 gift to say, to name the thing. And then like 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.040 it was like this collective sigh of relief and then 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:11.920 they made progress. 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.800 So okay, So I have a question about that because 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.520 I've I know that that feeling, that collective side. It 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.080 takes one bold person in a group of people to 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.080 say something, right. I've been at like girls' birthday parties 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:30.439 where it's like twelve women and one person like says 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.240 a big omission. Like I had a friend who the 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.320 other day told all of us, like, I feel so ashamed. 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.520 When I was sixteen, I like hooked up with my 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.800 best friend's boyfriend and I think about it all the time, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.399 and it started this amazing conversation and she was so 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.919 nervous to share. Yeah, yeah, that was beautiful. But we 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.120 all know each other and trust each other at work, right. 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.880 I have to tell you my experience, no matter how 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.480 beautiful the environment is, is that the less you share, 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:03.959 the better. So I'm kind of interested in hearing. Yeah, 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.280 why you know, maybe it's a power dynamic. 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:08.600 Right, There's a lot of things. Can I ask you 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.639 if you remember? You might not remember, like, yeah, a 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.480 time when you feel like you got burned at work 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:15.800 by sharing. 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.440 I think a lot of times if I share, people 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.119 feel close to me, and there's like boundaries that I 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.320 want to keep at work. Actually, yeah, and so there's 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:28.760 sort of a weird uh dynamic there. 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:30.040 Sometimes yep, totally. 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.440 I don't know if I've been like specifically burned badly? 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.880 Yeah yeah, yeah, So okay, so that what you're describing 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:40.520 to me is something super healthy, I think, which is 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.879 the desire to have boundaries. And people differ also in 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:49.000 how strong they're like how much they want their personal 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.879 non work life to be known at work, which is 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.280 completely fair, and there's we have lots of we differ 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.520 in that individually. We also differ, like the kind of 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.480 work we're in differs for how how the comfort in 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.679 that so again the context changes, but I guess I 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.200 would it's hard for me to think of an example 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:12.280 of when saying something a little bit more revealing in 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.119 the right context, whatever the norm while respecting the norms right, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:20.359 So whatever the norm is just squeaking a little bit, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:21.359 That's what. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.000 I mean, Not like ten steps. Because in your book, 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.119 you really do you make the case that people often 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.520 regret what they conceal, not what they reveal. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.679 Totally totally they do. I mean, concealment in and of 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.439 itself is bad for our health. If we're actively keeping seekers, 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.920 if we're ruminating like it's bad for our mental and 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.280 physical health. But when one of the reasons why I 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.560