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Speaker 1: Hey, there's that gang. It's super producer justin here letting

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Speaker 1: you all know that as Miles is out of the

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Speaker 1: country gallivanting across Italy, Jack's body turned against him, probably

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Speaker 1: due to mentioning the Havana syndrome one too many times.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. Anyway, he's now out sick. So instead of

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Speaker 1: a brand new episode, we are re releasing this classic

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Speaker 1: episode in case you miss it the first time.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy Hello the Internet, and welcome to season two ninety three,

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Speaker 2: episode one of der Allyshi Guys Say production of My

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Speaker 2: Heart Radio. This is a podcast where we take a

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Speaker 2: deep dive into america shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: June twenty seventh, twenty twenty three, six two seven, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. You know what it means.

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Speaker 3: Sorry my computers crashing. Oh wirral doesn't matter. They can't

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Speaker 3: stop us because six twenty seven. Oh you better. I

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Speaker 3: don't even know what I was gonna grow. I was

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Speaker 3: gonna pivot to. But anyways, National Orange Blossom Day, National

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Speaker 3: Sunglasses Day, International Pineapple Day, National peat SD Awareness Day,

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Speaker 3: Micro Small and Medium Enterprise of National Onion Day, Naturally

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Speaker 3: Type Testing a Natural ice cream Cake Day. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of days. Today we got them all.

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Speaker 2: We got two of my favorites fragrances, you know, orange blossom.

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Speaker 2: I got some orange blossom like candles blossom te ohney

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Speaker 2: and then onion onion tea, yeah, onion.

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Speaker 3: Candles that like that onion perfume that.

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Speaker 4: You have is dish water right high watering, like because

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Speaker 4: you just like get a little misty. Could you imagine

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Speaker 4: if there was a thing where like you were just

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Speaker 4: fucking emitting the ship that makes your eyes water from onions, like.

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Speaker 3: Like, yo, the fuck is that actually cheering up near you?

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Speaker 2: Well, my name is Jack O'Brien aka on we on

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Speaker 2: we on we on we. I swear to you that

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Speaker 2: I know this word man on we only hung wee

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Speaker 2: hon we. I know how to speak, I promise you

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Speaker 2: I can. That is courtesy of a cw GB O

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Speaker 2: on the Discord making fun of me, humiliating me for

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Speaker 2: a mispronounced thing. On we as n u n u

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Speaker 2: y a U I what's the word u? Anyway, I'm

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Speaker 2: thrilled to be joined as always by my co host

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Speaker 2: mister Miles grab Wells Gray K. I'm a bitch.

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Speaker 3: I'm in Orca thinking y'all just stop my Yorca. I'm

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Speaker 3: a sinner. I'm a well I'm gonna hit you with

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Speaker 3: my tail. Okay. Shout out to Algaraventa PG up in it,

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Speaker 3: who found this on the Twitter. It's funny. I love

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Speaker 3: when people find things that are like, yo, listen to AKA.

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Speaker 3: They don't even listen to the show. But these people

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Speaker 3: don't know what you wrote is an AKA And that

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Speaker 3: was from Connor Daily on Twitter. But yeah, hell yeah

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Speaker 3: Conners aren't they aren't the activities spreading of the orcas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there was another one where they like.

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Speaker 3: In like near the British Isles or something there. I

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Speaker 3: call it British miles like I'm an old explorer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I read about a new one. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it means for how far the message

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Speaker 2: has spread from White Gladys, yes, but north of Scotland

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Speaker 2: they say damn. They say that again, this could be

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Speaker 2: like a slight thing where now.

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Speaker 3: Like media is like being like this is this is

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Speaker 3: a new thing or attack spreading like wildfire because I

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Speaker 3: said quote it appears to be leap frogging across oceans.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're fucking have like cell coverage out there, how

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Speaker 2: would it be leap frogging they got that five gjack,

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Speaker 2: or maybe whales swim that far that fast.

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Speaker 3: Or maybe orcas just know how to stay on code.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Anyways, Miles, this is a very special episode.

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Speaker 2: Our guest today is an expert or of a book

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Speaker 2: that I will just say explained a lot, explained everything

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Speaker 2: about how modern America operates in a lot of aspects.

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Speaker 3: And you'll even hear me admit the beginning. I'm like

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Speaker 3: I was going around a lot of my adult life

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Speaker 3: vaguely understanding what we're talking about, and then but hearing

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Speaker 3: it act properly and like reading it, have it be

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Speaker 3: properly articulated by someone who's like looking at it from

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Speaker 3: a legal standpoint, and like, oh, yeah, yo, that's fucking terrible.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like I knew that broadly, but this is

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Speaker 3: it gives it so much texture in a way that Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but it.

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Speaker 2: Might seem at first like a little depressing because it's

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Speaker 2: like it's giving you really good texture on like why

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Speaker 2: things are bad in certain ways. But I think ultimately

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Speaker 2: it's kind of hopeful because it at least gives you

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Speaker 2: an understanding of how things are actually operating. So We're

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Speaker 2: going to talk to our expert guest, Brendan Belu, for

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Speaker 2: a couple acts here for like the next forty minutes,

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Speaker 2: come back and close things out after that. So we

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Speaker 2: will talk to you guys in a bit.

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Speaker 3: Just a caveat. I normally, I just I don't speak

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Speaker 3: to the Feds normally, So please don't. I don't want

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Speaker 3: you guys writing in about how.

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Speaker 2: I made I was doing it. I said, it's a

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Speaker 2: It's always been fine for me. Come along, friend, let's

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Speaker 2: talk to the Fed. All right, miles, We are thrilled

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Speaker 2: to be joined in our third seat by a federal

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Speaker 2: prosecutor who served as special counsel at the Department of Justice.

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Speaker 2: He is the author of the book Plunder, which he

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Speaker 2: is here to talk to us about today. It is

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Speaker 2: a hugely compelling, infuriating read about an industry I knew

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Speaker 2: very little about. So Brendan, first of all, welcome, Thank

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Speaker 2: you for joining us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to I want to go as

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Speaker 2: long as I can talking about this without mentioning the

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Speaker 2: name of the industry that your book is about, just

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Speaker 2: because I feel like when I hear the two words

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Speaker 2: that are the name of the industry, Like my brain

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Speaker 2: just goes to sleep because it's also like the name

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Speaker 2: that I've heard people who I like went to school

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Speaker 2: with be like, oh, well I do some things and

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Speaker 2: m and I'm just like, okay, I don't. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what that's like, right, it's so divorced from reality

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Speaker 2: and like anything that makes sense to me, And maybe

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Speaker 2: that's by design, I don't know, but just some facts

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Speaker 2: real quick. So these companies are massive and invisible in

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Speaker 2: a lot of cases. You mentioned that they would be

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Speaker 2: two of them would be the third and fourth biggest

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Speaker 2: employers of people in the country behind Amazon and Walmart

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Speaker 2: if they like admitted that they existed or owned these

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Speaker 2: entities right one. This industry helps explain why ambulances are

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Speaker 2: aren't free. Ambulances used to be free. Like you have

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Speaker 2: a quote that is very close to some things we've

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Speaker 2: been saying on our show, Like anecdotally, it feels like

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Speaker 2: everything's getting a little worse. Our products are lower quality,

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Speaker 2: our stores are understaffed. And this book, more than anything

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Speaker 2: I've read recently, really helped me make sense of why

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Speaker 2: that is or how that's happening. And then there's also

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Speaker 2: this list of companies that this industry took over and

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Speaker 2: then those companies declared bankruptcy that I just want to

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Speaker 2: read through really quickly. Like, so we've got j Crew, Neiman,

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Speaker 2: Marcus Toys, r us Sears, twenty four Hour Fitness, Aeropostyle,

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Speaker 2: American Apparel, Brookstone, Player's, David's Bridle, dead Spin, Jimberry, Hurts,

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Speaker 2: KB Toys, Linen's and Things, Mattress Firm, Nine West, pay

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Speaker 2: Less Shoes, Radio, Shack Shop, co Sports Authority, true religion, friendlies, friendlies, yes.

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Speaker 2: And I just so I had just kind of taken

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Speaker 2: it for granted that those places, along with the like

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Speaker 2: mom and pop stores like just no longer needed to

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Speaker 2: exist because Amazon or something you know like that. It

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Speaker 2: was just like Walmart and Amazon coming in and out

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Speaker 2: dueling the mid size guys with scale. But a lot

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Speaker 2: of those companies still deliver on the central premise of

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Speaker 2: capitalism of like delivering value to people's lives and getting

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Speaker 2: paid for it. And like, so this helped me fill

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Speaker 2: in a bank a blank that like a lot of

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Speaker 2: these companies are actually getting killed off by this scient

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Speaker 2: killer that is private equity. Private equity folks said it

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Speaker 2: all right again, a word that has the magical power

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Speaker 2: to turn my brain off.

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Speaker 3: But it's one of those words too, like it turns

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Speaker 3: my brain off because it sounds like when I hear

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Speaker 3: it so much that I'm embarrassed to admit how little

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Speaker 3: I know about it. And you're like, yeah, private equity,

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Speaker 3: I know, Like I hear that all the time, and

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Speaker 3: if someone asked me to start explaining it, I would

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Speaker 3: probably start like sounding like some maga republic in trying

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Speaker 3: to explain like how the insurrection was an inside job

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Speaker 3: or like the dog Like, well, the thing you got

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Speaker 3: to understand is like the Clinton socks case and documents.

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Speaker 3: And you're like, whoa, wait, huh that I'm that I

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Speaker 3: think it's also that's sort of like the brilliant part

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Speaker 3: of this industry is that it so many of us

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Speaker 3: are blissfully ignorant of its power while it is able

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Speaker 3: to just run rampant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but let's talk scale first of all, Like these

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Speaker 2: are massive companies, as you mentioned, third and fourth biggest

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Speaker 2: employers in the country.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's kind of amazing how big private equity

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Speaker 5: firms are. And I should say at the outset, of course,

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Speaker 5: that I'm speaking purely personally and not necessarily reflecting the

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Speaker 5: views of my employer. So let's just talk numbers here.

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Speaker 5: As you mentioned the some leading private equity firms, if

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Speaker 5: they were considered with their portfolio companies, would be the third, fourth,

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Speaker 5: and fifth largest companies in America after just Amazon and Walmart.

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Speaker 5: In terms of what they're buying. Private equity firms spent

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Speaker 5: a little over trillion dollars buying companies last year and

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Speaker 5: one point two trillion dollars the year before. Just for

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Speaker 5: a sense of perspective, the entire US GDP is about

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Speaker 5: twenty five trillion dollars, so it's not an insubstantial part

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Speaker 5: of the entire US economy. And in terms of where

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Speaker 5: they're spreading out, it's just about every industry you name,

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Speaker 5: you can think of. You know, you already named, you know, ambulances,

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Speaker 5: you named a lot of retail stores and so forth.

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Speaker 5: But whether we're talking about healthcare, housing, prisons, education, municipal services.

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Speaker 5: You know, literally the font of my book was owned

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Speaker 5: and licensed by a private equity portfolio company, so it

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Speaker 5: really surrounds you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess my assumption and maybe maybe the reason

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Speaker 2: that like the the ideas behind private equity like didn't cohere,

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Speaker 2: didn't like stick. My brain is that like it doesn't

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Speaker 2: they don't take over, And I guess the premise is

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Speaker 2: right that they take over a company and they figure

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Speaker 2: out ways to make the company better and more profitable,

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Speaker 2: like as this, you know, in and of itself, this

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Speaker 2: company now delivers better value to the customers that serves

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Speaker 2: that are cheaper price. But instead of doing that, they

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Speaker 2: really seem to be doing something between that and stripping

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Speaker 2: it for parts and like getting them to pay them

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Speaker 2: fees and putting them out of business in a way

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Speaker 2: that is legally structured so that they don't face any

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Speaker 2: of the consequences.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think, you know, Miles kind of

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Speaker 5: framed it right because it's something that I felt starting

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Speaker 5: out of this project. Is private equity is a word

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Speaker 5: that a or a term that I think we've all heard,

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Speaker 5: but like if we're honest, like we usually don't actually

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Speaker 5: know what it means. And I'll confess I didn't know

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Speaker 5: what it meant until about a third of the way

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Speaker 5: through this project. So I don't think anybody should feel

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Speaker 5: embarrassed about that.

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Speaker 2: So just taking a step back, So what is private

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Speaker 2: equity and.

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Speaker 5: How does this business model work. So private equity firms

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Speaker 5: take a little bit of their own money, some investor money,

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Speaker 5: and a whole lot of borrowed money to buy up

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Speaker 5: companies you were saying, Jack, And then what they do

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Speaker 5: is they sort of enact these operational or financial changes

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Speaker 5: with the aim of selling it for a profit a

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Speaker 5: few years later. So it's a very simple idea. But

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Speaker 5: the problem that we've got is our laws and regulations

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Speaker 5: are structured in a way that really leads to a

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Speaker 5: lot of bad outcomes. So, for instance, private equity firms

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Speaker 5: typically just own companies for a few years, so they

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Speaker 5: have a very short term perspective. And when they own them,

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Speaker 5: they tend to load the companies up with a lot

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Speaker 5: of debt, and they tend to extract a lot of fees.

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Speaker 5: And then third, and this is the part that interests

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Speaker 5: me the most is a lawyer, is they're extremely good

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Speaker 5: at insulating themselves from legal liability for the consequences of

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Speaker 5: their actions. So when you've got those three problems, it

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Speaker 5: leads to all the things that we're talking about here.

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Speaker 5: Short term, a lot of debt, insulation from responsibility. It

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Speaker 5: means that private equity firms often profit but the companies,

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Speaker 5: the customers and.

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Speaker 2: The employees often don't. Yeah, And it like how much

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Speaker 2: is that? Because like that that is something even as

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Speaker 2: you are describing it, like just this idea of adding

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Speaker 2: hidden fees to these companies and extracting fees like using

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Speaker 2: them like ATM machines and like doing things that are

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Speaker 2: just like short term value grabs as much as possible

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Speaker 2: or just like money grabs. Like that seems to be

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Speaker 2: like you talk about how these are the new cool

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Speaker 2: places to work in the finance industry, and it like

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Speaker 2: that logic of like no longer think about long term

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Speaker 2: health and just like kind of cynically like smashing a

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Speaker 2: company until smashing thing you are doing business with until

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Speaker 2: it gives you money.

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Speaker 5: Like that.

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Speaker 2: It feels like that we're seeing that kind of everywhere,

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Speaker 2: like when we talked about like the new HBO Max

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Speaker 2: changing its name to Max and like that. But like

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Speaker 2: his main insight is like just cut budgets like that.

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Speaker 2: That's the other thing that just keeps coming up over

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Speaker 2: and over again is like their big insight, if you

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Speaker 2: can that is just like cut budgets, don't don't spend

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Speaker 2: any money so that we can turn things around really quickly,

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Speaker 2: and that that ends with them like being understaffed during

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Speaker 2: like they they cut doctors, like what one of one

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Speaker 2: of the private equity firms that like bought an ER

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Speaker 2: was in some way like in charge of an R

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Speaker 2: was like cutting staff during the COVID pandemic. Like it's

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Speaker 2: it's just they they only have like three answers and

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Speaker 2: they're they're all just short term value graps. Right, Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 2: let me.

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Speaker 5: Give an example of sort of how this sometimes works,

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Speaker 5: it works in practice, and then maybe I can address

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Speaker 5: I think what your broader point is here. So you know,

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Speaker 5: one of the examples that I always turned to is

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Speaker 5: Carlisle's acquisition of HCR Manor Care, which was this very

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Speaker 5: large nursing home chain in the United States. So they

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Speaker 5: bought it up primarily with death, executed a lot of

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Speaker 5: tactics that you were sort of alluding to, like what's

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Speaker 5: called a sale lease back, where they required Manor Care

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Speaker 5: to set all of its buildings and offices and then

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Speaker 5: lease it back to itself, which kind of gives it

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Speaker 5: a quick hit of cash, but means that now they

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Speaker 5: sort of have a lease on something that they used

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Speaker 5: to own. They extracted transaction fees and management fees, which

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Speaker 5: were essentially fees for the privilege of being owned by

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Speaker 5: the private equity firm. And you know, understandably, you know,

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Speaker 5: when you start extracting money and disinvesting in the company,

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Speaker 5: health code violet, health code complaints spike. You know, residents

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Speaker 5: start complaining about you know, rodents and roaches and things

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Speaker 5: like that. Eventually somebody dies in one of the nursing homes.

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Speaker 5: But when their family sues for wrongful death, Carlisle's able

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Speaker 5: to get the case against it dismissed by arguing that

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Speaker 5: it is not the technical owner of the nursing home chain. Instead,

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Speaker 5: it merely advises a series of funds whose limited partners,

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Speaker 5: through several shell companies, own the nursing home chain.

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Speaker 2: And that's enough to.

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Speaker 5: Get the case against it dismissed. And that's you know,

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Speaker 5: sort of a typical exam Buller. I shouldn't say typical,

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Speaker 5: but a frequent enough example of how you can have

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Speaker 5: a bad consequence with this business model. Now, if I

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Speaker 5: can get to it, I think what your broader point is,

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Speaker 5: which is I think that there's a feeling in this

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Speaker 5: economy that you know, there's sort of a short term

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Speaker 5: perspective that there's a sort of idea of extraction rather

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Speaker 5: than investment and all these things, and I think that

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Speaker 5: there are sort of broad macro things happening in our

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Speaker 5: economy that can account for that, and sort of talking

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Speaker 5: about the rise of the ideology of shareholders supremacy.

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Speaker 2: And things like that.

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Speaker 5: But one thing that I always try to hit home

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Speaker 5: is that private equity actually is new and is different,

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Speaker 5: and it's something sort of unique and separate from the

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Speaker 5: rest of the financial industry. Which is not to say

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Speaker 5: that the rest of the financial industry is pure and

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Speaker 5: clean and you know, perfect, but it's something distinct. And

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Speaker 5: I do that because I think if we sort of

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Speaker 5: throw up our hands and say that the entire sort

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Speaker 5: of economy is broken, the nature of capitalism has failed,

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Speaker 5: and so forth, it can lead to a certain level

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Speaker 5: of you know, sort of nihilism. Whereas if you say,

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Speaker 5: we've got this specific problem with this private equity business model,

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Speaker 5: I think it's something that we can actually fix.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, I definitely felt more knowledgeable and therefore hopeful

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Speaker 2: following reading your book than I did before, because, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel necessarily like it is everything having to

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Speaker 2: do with capitalism it feels like capitalism has this horrible

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Speaker 2: version of like capitalism cancer that is just you know,

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Speaker 2: invading and being able to spread, and it's silent and

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Speaker 2: so and kind of invisible to a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: and so it's kind of out of control, I.

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Speaker 3: Think to that point, right of being able to diagnose

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Speaker 3: the issues, because I think broadly we see the issues

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Speaker 3: of capitalism in this form of hyper capitalism we're in.

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Speaker 3: But it's one thing to be able to say, okay, now,

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Speaker 3: let's be able to an or be able to diagnose

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Speaker 3: these specific causes because before, like to Jack's point, I

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Speaker 3: was on a like just sort of this ignorant path

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Speaker 3: of being like I don't know, the Amazon like ruined

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Speaker 3: all these like small places. I'm like, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Maybe people are aren't buying toys anymore. That's why Toys

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Speaker 3: r US went under. And it's like, no, it's because

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Speaker 3: there is a very it's like a very proven method

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Speaker 3: of making money like this, and it's and it's we're

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Speaker 3: incentivizing it because people are also on top of this,

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Speaker 3: like's like I don't want to lose sight of the

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Speaker 3: amount of money that these people make sort of at

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Speaker 3: at our own expense at the expense of these people

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Speaker 3: that are in these you know, nursing homes or in

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Speaker 3: prison or working for certain countries or certain companies. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: but you're like you point it to like a really

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Speaker 3: interesting statistic, because just to give people an idea of

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Speaker 3: how wealthy the people that are involved in the pe

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Speaker 3: pirate equity or whatever you want to call it, to

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Speaker 3: get people's ears like up a little bit, like what's

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Speaker 3: the like, what's the sort of disparity and how much

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Speaker 3: money these people make versus something like we can wrap

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Speaker 3: our heads around, like you know, like professional athletes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So one of the statistics that really grab my attention

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Speaker 5: is that there are now more private equity managers who

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Speaker 5: make over one hundred million dollars a year than all

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Speaker 5: other financial executives, investment bankers, and professional athletes combined. So

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Speaker 5: this tiny part of the industry is really dominant. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you know, to go back to a point I think

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Speaker 5: you were making earlier jack about how private equity, even

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Speaker 5: though this sort of obscure sounding thing is is sort

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Speaker 5: of the hot place to be in finance. The head

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Speaker 5: of Blackstone, which is one of the leading private equity firms,

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Speaker 5: last year made I think ten times as much as

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Speaker 5: the CEO of Goldman's Acts, and I don't think the

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Speaker 5: CEO of Goldman's Acts is terribly underpaid. So you know,

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Speaker 5: these are areas where, you know, literally you have folks

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Speaker 5: whose net worth is the GDP of you know, some

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Speaker 5: small country.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, you taught you describe some parties that

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Speaker 2: they're throwing in the book, and it's.

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Speaker 3: And the whole head of Goldman is the DJ. That's

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Speaker 3: how these guys are, Like, dude, I have him here

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Speaker 3: to be the DJ, not to be a guest.

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Speaker 5: I think one of the parties Stephen Schwartzman's seventieth birthday,

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Speaker 5: he's that he's one of the heads of Blackstone has

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Speaker 5: I think at least one or two Chinese temples built

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Speaker 5: in his honor on his property in Florida, had sort

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Speaker 5: of dancers, hired the cast of Jersey Boys boys brought

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Speaker 5: in and had Gwen Stefani sing him Happy Birthday personally.

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Speaker 5: So you know, these folks have a fair amount of

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Speaker 5: money to work with.

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Speaker 2: And he's got taste.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's a no, no doubt fan. He's like,

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Speaker 3: I love Tragic Kingdom. How much money do I got

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Speaker 3: to pay for you and Tony to get back together

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Speaker 3: the basis I loved that that don't speak video. The

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Speaker 3: other thing too, is like again we talk about because

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Speaker 3: everything is typically that we see, it's always praying on

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Speaker 3: the weakest in our society, whether it's like draconian legislation

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Speaker 3: or like the kinds of consumers these companies go after.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's like almost guaranteed that the people

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Speaker 3: that are on the shit end of the deal are

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Speaker 3: working people or people who have no options. Can you

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Speaker 3: talk about like how specifically, like how this works too,

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Speaker 3: because there is a methodology to getting as much money

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Speaker 3: as they can out of this because they know they

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Speaker 3: have a sort of captive consumer base.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think your phrase captive consumer base is exactly right,

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Speaker 5: because you know, I started out on this project, I

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Speaker 5: sort of assumed that private equity firms would go after

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Speaker 5: industries for wealthy people, because you know, that's where the

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Speaker 5: money is. But I was surprised by how many industries

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Speaker 5: or businesses private equity firms bought up that targeted not

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Speaker 5: the rich, but the poor and working class. You know,

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Speaker 5: whether we're talking about we sort of alluded to this earlier,

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Speaker 5: you know, prison services, mobile homes, for profit colleges, various

404
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Speaker 5: parts of the healthcare industry that target sort of lower

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Speaker 5: income and working class families. And I think the reason

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Speaker 5: for that buy and large is working class people have

407
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Speaker 5: fewer alternatives. So when you're talking about prison services, you

408
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Speaker 5: can lower the quality of care, or when you're talking

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Speaker 5: about mobile homes, you can raise the cost of the

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Speaker 5: lot at least because folks literally don't have an alternative

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Speaker 5: and don't have another option. Yeah, you taught you mentioned

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Speaker 5: elsewhere in the book about how like why ers are

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Speaker 5: attractive to them, and it's you know, the inelasticity of

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Speaker 5: demand and the fact that nobody really has has much

415
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Speaker 5: say over where they are when they get shot or

416
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Speaker 5: have a heart attack, and so they're like bingo, these

417
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Speaker 5: this consumer base isn't going anywhere, and so we can

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Speaker 5: function up as bad as we want to, essentially, and

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Speaker 5: we'll have we'll be able to spend very little and

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Speaker 5: continue extracting money from people.

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Speaker 3: It kind of just reminds me of just like you

422
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Speaker 3: were saying, like ambulances used to be free, that to

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Speaker 3: the point now we have like it's now in our consciousness,

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Speaker 3: no no, no, called ambulance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll do that don't do that, and.

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Speaker 3: You're like, oh, that's the invisible hand of private equity

427
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Speaker 3: right there, just putting that into our minds.

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Speaker 5: It's really interesting, you know, ambulances specifically, I think for

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Speaker 5: folks from our generation, like we didn't even really realized

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Speaker 5: that until pretty recently. You know, ambulances used to be

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Speaker 5: largely owned by municipalities. It wasn't until the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 5: and two thousands that you started having this privatization movement,

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Speaker 5: and private equity firms have gotten very active in ambulances.

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00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 5: One of the really interesting things is it doesn't seem

435
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 5: like they've done a terribly great job managing them. There

436
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 5: was a really interesting expos in the New York Times

437
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 5: about them, about how sort of a disproportionate number of

438
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 5: ambulance companies owned by PE firms were going bankrupt and

439
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 5: going out of business and so forth. But to take

440
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 5: one step back, I mean, I think emergency rooms are

441
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 5: the really interesting story because two private equity firms own

442
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 5: the leading physicians staffing companies for emergency rooms, and according

443
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 5: to research by some folks at Yale, really the business

444
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 5: model of these staffing companies is essentially to staff the

445
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 5: doctors at these emergency rooms in a way strategically so

446
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 5: that people pay surprise out of network bills. So you

447
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 5: go to a hospital, you think it's in your in

448
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 5: your network for your insurer, but you're actually treated by

449
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 5: a doctor who works for a different hospital and as

450
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 5: a result, have to paint out of network bill.

451
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's an area, Yeah, go ahead, it's

452
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: just trick. It's it's adding confusion, adding complexity to the

453
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: system so that they can extract fees without delivering any

454
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: value whatsoever. Like that really seems to be Sorry, let's

455
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: take a quick break and I yeah, I want to

456
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: kind of come back and just look further at the

457
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 2: track record because it really like the number of examples

458
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: you give really suggests this is the model. Like this

459
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: is this is what they do. They come in, they

460
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: make it worse. They somehow get so rich that they

461
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: can build Chinese temples at their birthday party.

462
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: With Gwen Stefani.

463
00:24:47,240 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: Yes, with Gwen Stefani, And we're back. So that story

464
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: about how their insight into staffing was to trick people

465
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: into using doctors outside of their network is just one

466
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: of the stories in your book that is incredibly infuriating.

467
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: There's also the worst hacking disaster in US history. Do

468
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: you want to talk about how that came about in

469
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: partnership with private equity.

470
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, two private equity firms bought up the tech

471
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 5: company Solar Winds, which provides a lot of sort of

472
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: like boring it and security services to companies. Looking through

473
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 5: the documents in Solar Winds public filings, it appears that

474
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 5: after it was bought by a private equity firm, staffing

475
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 5: company was cut, and at least according to their public disclosures,

476
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 5: a lot of their engineering work was moved overseas, including to,

477
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 5: among other countries, Belarus, which is great yeah in the

478
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 5: news recently. Yeah yeah, oh Lukashenko, great guy.

479
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah yeah.

480
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 5: Whether that's causal or not, ultimately, Solar Winds suffered what

481
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 5: one government official called the greatest hack in United States history.

482
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 5: I believe the Department of Defense, Treasury, State Justice, and

483
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 5: others were all compromised, and at least it appears on

484
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 5: sort of initial reporting that the leaders of the private

485
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 5: equity firms may have dump stock in advance of the

486
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: public disclosure of that. Now there's an investigation going on

487
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 5: to that at the SEC. I don't know what the

488
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 5: outcome of it was but it was another example of

489
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 5: you know, you have this industry, you know sort of

490
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 5: it security that really needs to be thinking in terms

491
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 5: of years and really decades for how to make sure

492
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 5: that you've got to secure product when you're working with

493
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 5: the government and they're being bought or controlled by private

494
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 5: equity firms that are trying to make a profit you know,

495
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 5: in a matter of months or a manner of years,

496
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 5: and it's just a very different perspective for how to

497
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 5: run these businesses.

498
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean similar to the you know,

499
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: getting involved in er staff thing that they also took

500
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 2: over the operation of nine to one one calls at

501
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: one point, Like just all these things that Yeah, it

502
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: just when you read stories of businesses that become successful

503
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: over the over a long period of time, like it's

504
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 2: really about fixating on like how to do the one

505
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: thing that they do for customers like better than anyone else.

506
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: And time and time again, it seems like when these

507
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: private equity firms come in, like it's just like that

508
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 2: is the third or fourth thing that they're interested in,

509
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: and the most interesting thing is delivering value for themselves

510
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: and get yeah, financial success it's interesting. You know, you

511
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: look at the biographies of folks that run private equity

512
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: firms and it's you know, it's not a critique of them,

513
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: it's not a surprise, but you know, it's generally folks

514
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: that do not have experience in sales or it or

515
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: engineering or marketing or logistics. It's folks with a financial background.

516
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: And so when they approach these companies typically, you know,

517
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: not always, but typically, you know, what they're trying to

518
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: make are essentially sort of financial changes to these businesses

519
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: that's going to you know, get a fairly quick return.

520
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: You know, you look at the diversity of what some

521
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: of these private equity firms buy into. You know, it's

522
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: a plastic logistics company, it's a municipal water service, and

523
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: it's that dating app bumble, you know, and it's like

524
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 2: one person doesn't really have the expertise to run all

525
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: those different kinds of companies.

526
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just know how to make line go up right,

527
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 3: And it's sort of like, oh, what what does that mean.

528
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 3: It's like, well, we're not gonna have enough nurses. I

529
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: don't know, man. But then when I look at these projections,

530
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: I like what I'm seeing. Let's do that and figuring

531
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: out afterwards. What's really difficult is, like we hear about

532
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: all this, it is so apparent to everyone, you know,

533
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: Like I think at this point, even everyone listening is like, right, okay, okay,

534
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: pirate equity bad or like not not necessarily out here

535
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: where everyone's best interest. But then you think about, like

536
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: a lot of the examples that you give in your book,

537
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: like it's also very very hard to hold these fucking

538
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: people to account because of the nature of like all

539
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 3: of the advantages that these companies have, whether it's through lobbying,

540
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: whether it's through like a revolving door of entities that

541
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: have been in government that end up there and then

542
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: end up lobbying people they already know on the hill

543
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: and things like that, or just the amount of complex

544
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: like like hight like whack a mole of who owns

545
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: this thing that all come together. Because I think a

546
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: lot of the times, especially when we talk about these issues,

547
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: like on our show, we're like, well, what's the problem.

548
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: Why can't it why can't it stop? Right, Like it's

549
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: we get it, We're seeing it. Like the cost is

550
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: people losing their lives, the cost is people going bankrupt,

551
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: the cost is untold suffering, and then you know, to

552
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: be real, it's like, hey man, we're looking at you

553
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: the FEDS.

554
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: What's going on? Uh?

555
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: And I know you've said this too, like it's the

556
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 3: federal Like the DOJ is not the only end to

557
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: you that can go after this, But like, how how

558
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: do you explain like when people talk about the frustration

559
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: of like well then what like something's out of give

560
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 3: where where will it give?

561
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: It will give? Yeah?

562
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a huge issue because you know, as you

563
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 5: started off, you know, private equity I think has been

564
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 5: uniquely successful in lobbying. You know, if you look at

565
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 5: who private equity firms have hired, it's former secretaries of State, Treasury, Defense,

566
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 5: two former Speakers of the House, to a vice president,

567
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 5: former chair people of the FCC and SEC. I mean,

568
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: it's a really deep bench, and that means that they

569
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 5: have just been extraordinarily successful at sort of advancing their

570
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 5: legislative and regulatory agenda. I think the other challenge that

571
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 5: we've got, and I think you hit on this exactly right,

572
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 5: is it's really hard for ordinary people to hold private

573
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 5: equity firms accountable. We have this doctrine called corporate veil piercing,

574
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 5: which means that it's very hard to hold an investor

575
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 5: responsible for the actions of the company that they invest in.

576
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 5: That makes sense for you and me, where we've got

577
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 5: our little Vanguard account and have like one share of

578
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 5: stock and a company, you know, we don't really have

579
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 5: much to say over them. That doctrine doesn't necessarily make

580
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 5: sense for a private equity firm that has a controlling

581
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 5: stake in these businesses and can essentially tell them what

582
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 5: to do. And then lastly, I mean, I think you

583
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 5: hit the point exactly right, which is a lot of

584
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 5: times it's just hard to even figure out.

585
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: Who owns what and who to sue. I talked with

586
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: folks that sue nursing homes on behalf of families whose

587
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: you know, parents died or were injured or whatever it

588
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: happens to be, and they're telling me, you know, look,

589
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: these guys have these really broke organizational structures where they're

590
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: shifting assets across multiple shell companies and you know, sort

591
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: of across different shells, and it's really hard to figure

592
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: out who is responsible and who has the assets to recover.

593
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: So it's a really tough problem.

594
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's something that's becoming normal too, like other

595
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: industries are like you know what kind of works is

596
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: if you kind of spread it all around, right, no

597
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: one knows how to get like seek damages.

598
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. You tell this one really memorable story about Ashford,

599
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: which is, you know, a Franciscan University of the Prairies

600
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: is what it's called. But it's like a really small

601
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: college run by nuns. And then it gets taken over

602
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: and turned into Ashford University, which becomes this you know,

603
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: Phoenix University like adjacent thing, and it's really this like

604
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: outraging thing. And then you also mentioned that like the

605
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: private equity firm that now runs it is Warburg Pinkus,

606
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: which is run by Obama's former Treasury Secretary Secretary Tim Geitner.

607
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: And it's just like you just see that over and

608
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: over again, like the amount of people from positions of

609
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: power who like know how things work better than anybody.

610
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: You know, most people listening to this and like know

611
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: how things really work behind the scenes are are going

612
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: into private equity and it just really feels like a eluding,

613
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: a plundering that's happening.

614
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 5: I yeah, I heard this third hand, so I don't

615
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 5: know how true it is. But there was a senior

616
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 5: government official who ended up doing some work for a

617
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 5: private equity firm, and somebody was chiding them, and they said, look,

618
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 5: you know, it's not who's working for private equity, it's

619
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 5: who isn't working for private equity right now. So it's

620
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 5: it's pretty extraordinary the breadth of their success.

621
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: Right and just like the greed, how it compounds itself,

622
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: you know, because now it's like it seems like you're

623
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: almost incentivized to get into private equity because of how

624
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: little repercussions people face. And I'm curious, like when you

625
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: have a case like like the ones we've talked about,

626
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: when it's like, yeah, man, like they own this company

627
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: and they basically started throttling back their level of care

628
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: which led to someone losing their life. Okay, well, then

629
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: tell me who owns this and that person's responsible. Like

630
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: when these cases get like dismissed things, is that the

631
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 3: cynical part of like, I think, the cynical shorthand version

632
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: of someone who believes in how like cronyism works and

633
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 3: things like that, believe that like, oh, the judges are

634
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 3: in on it too. Everybody's in on this. That's why

635
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: it's happening. But I think you've also raised the point

636
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: that it's not necessarily like like there's there's a huge

637
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 3: barrier to get over, which is informing people of how

638
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 3: this even works too, and like having enough public pressure

639
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 3: like around this idea or this industry of private equity

640
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: that gets people to sort of be on the same

641
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: page to understand the issues.

642
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think one of the challenges that

643
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 5: we've got is exactly what you're saying is education. And

644
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 5: that's not just educating you know, sort of your listeners

645
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 5: or you know people and you know, you know, people

646
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 5: that are just generally interested in this topic. It's also

647
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 5: informing judges, people in government, you know, what private equity

648
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 5: is and what the practical consequences are. One of the

649
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 5: challenges that I think people who are critical of the

650
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 5: private equity business model have is, you know, private equity

651
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 5: frames have an enormous amount lount of money to lobby

652
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 5: and to litigate their issues, and the other side, you know,

653
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 5: just has a fraction to do the same thing.

654
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: You know.

655
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 5: One of the.

656
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: Cases was over this obscure sort of retirement law issue,

657
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: and at stake was like four point five million dollars

658
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: for the private equity firm. It was essentially a rounding error.

659
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: They spent ten years litigating the case in order not

660
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: to have to pay out because they had the resources

661
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 2: to do it and they wanted to set the precedent

662
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: that they could. And so, you know, we've got to

663
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: inform people, and we've also got to figure out how

664
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: to sort of empower activists and folks that want to

665
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: work on this stuff so that they can do this

666
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: work for the long term. Right, can we can we

667
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: just list some of the industries where people might have

668
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: seen their work, because it just going back to that

669
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: initial statement about like we have an anecdotally everyone seems

670
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: to have a feeling that things are getting worse, but

671
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of hard to we don't have

672
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: much to compare it to. But they're you know, there's

673
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: presence in the dental industry, veterinary I think you mentioned

674
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 2: grocery stores at one point that they're one of the reasons.

675
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 2: They're like two grocery stores in the in the country

676
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: that didn't used to be the case. Yeah, yeah, So

677
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: private equity is you know, I don't want to overstate

678
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: the case, but they they're active in you know, most

679
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: most every industry that you can think of, whether you're

680
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: talking about sort of retail things we were talking about toys,

681
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: r us and stuff earlier, or grocery stores.

682
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 5: As you say, when we're talking about healthcare, it's not

683
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 5: just emergency rooms and ambulances. It's ordinary sort of opgyn

684
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 5: and urgent care clinics buying up literal insurance companies, you know,

685
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 5: life insurance claims, of worker compensation companies, to things like

686
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 5: manufacturing infrastructure. In some places, private equity firms literally bought

687
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 5: up the municipal water services that you might use to drink,

688
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 5: you know, water from your tap.

689
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: How'd that work out for them?

690
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, it didn't work out terribly well. So the private

691
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 5: equity firm operated it with A with A as a

692
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 5: joint venture, ultimately dramatically raised the price for users to

693
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 5: such an extent that local reporters were saying that people

694
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 5: quote unquote became water nazis, would time their family members

695
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 5: in the shower and would only buy flowers that didn't

696
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 5: require a lot of water. So, unfortunately, that's a contract

697
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 5: that those two cities are now going to have to

698
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 5: sit with for the next thirty years or so because

699
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 5: of how is how is negotiated. But to the extent

700
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 5: you're interested in these things and you're concerned about a business,

701
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 5: you know, private equity firms rarely advertise their ownership, So

702
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 5: what you should do is google the company name and

703
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 5: just add private equity and see what comes up.

704
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, chances are.

705
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: It's almost like what industries aren't they involved in?

706
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 2: It might be an easier question.

707
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, they're not behind the push

708
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: for medicare for all. I'll tell you that they don't

709
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 3: have they don't have a dog in that fight unless

710
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: it's on the other side of it.

711
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think they're active on that one. Yeah. Interesting,

712
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 2: How do you talk about it? Like I've there's been

713
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: in a couple social settings since reading your book and

714
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: just been like, yeah, it's crazy, but like unable to

715
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: like really fully you know, put into words because it's

716
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: the problems like so big and so acute. But like,

717
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: how do you usually introduce the idea of your book

718
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: to people? Like when you're just like talking to them

719
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: at a cocktail party or something.

720
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 5: I always explain the basic business model, and I say

721
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 5: that private equity is going to transform the country. In

722
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 5: this decade the way that big tech did in the

723
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 5: last decade and subprime lenders did in the decade before that.

724
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 5: And I say, what, the three basic problems are short termism,

725
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 5: a lot of debt and fees, and insulation from liability.

726
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 5: And if we can fix those three things, we can

727
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 5: basically solve the problem.

728
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's kind of another thing I want to

729
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: talk solving the problem because again, a lot of the

730
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 3: times it's easy to fall into the nihilism of being like,

731
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 3: well this is it, like I don't know, like I

732
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 3: don't even know, we don't even know who to sue

733
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 3: talked about how like again, activists have helped to like,

734
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: you know, offset or alleviate the cost of like phone

735
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: calls from prisons, you know, like actually have made headway there,

736
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: and like that's a victory. What are some other like

737
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: is what are some other specific areas where we are

738
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 3: seeing some bit of the clinging back of the fuckery

739
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 3: as it were.

740
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 5: So I think the prison area is really encouraging. So,

741
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 5: you know, private equity firms brought up prison phone companies,

742
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 5: started charging extremely high rates for these short, fifteen minute calls.

743
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 5: This was a many year effort to sort of make

744
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 5: progress here. Ultimately, you know, they were able. Activists were

745
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: able to get legislation passed in cities New York and

746
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 5: San Francisco capping rates for phone calls, then passed state

747
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 5: legislation in Connecticut, and ultimately pass federal legislation. So they

748
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 5: were really really effective working on this specific issue. Beyond that,

749
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 5: there's been really good work on for instance, you know

750
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 5: we were talking about nursing homes. There's rulemaking going on

751
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 5: right now at the Department of Health and Human Services

752
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 5: to try to establish national standards from minimum staffing criteria

753
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 5: for nursing homes, which will be absolutely transformative. So I

754
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 5: think when activists have chosen really specific issues where the

755
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 5: effect on people is clear, I actually think that they've

756
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 5: been really successful. You know, private equity firms have the money,

757
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 5: but activists have the people on their side, and I

758
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 5: think they've shown that they've been actually able to get

759
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 5: a lot done.

760
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: Right.

761
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: So rather than being like when you're going to pass

762
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: the down with private equity bill, it's like about kind

763
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 3: of getting a little more specific in a way that

764
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: connects to people. Because again, like like we're saying at

765
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 3: the top, just saying the word it becomes nebulous and abstract,

766
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I don't even know what yeah versus

767
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 3: shouldn't there be a number, like a minimum number of

768
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: staff in a nursing home so someone doesn't like like

769
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 3: needlessly lose their life and be like yeah, yeah, yeah, yea,

770
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: yeah yeah that part. But then again, there is there

771
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: a similar thing that gets at the accountability part, because

772
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: I think that's the part that really like frustrates me

773
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 3: is how easily they can walk and hide behind being

774
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: like I don't know, I don't own it. I just

775
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 3: tell these funds what to do in the Maltain that

776
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 3: that's that's where it ends. So I don't know where

777
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 3: the buck stops. What are is there? Like where can

778
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: people put their energy in terms of like finding that

779
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: part out or at least making that augmenting that movement

780
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: a bit.

781
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I think that's a really good question. And

782
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 5: you know, you're talking about private equity being a boring term,

783
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 5: like they're working to make it even more boring. A

784
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 5: lot of the leading firms now I don't even call

785
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 5: themselves private equity firms anymore. They are alternative asset managers.

786
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 5: So be on the lookout for.

787
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: Those cool Yeah, so interesting, So what is it where

788
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: like it wears flannel and has a nosering and like

789
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: has Doc Martin, Like yeah, like the alternative rock movement, but.

790
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: Asset management actually style on fund just kind of like

791
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: being an all band in the nineties exactly. So, you know,

792
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 2: in terms of sort of the deeper sort of accountability issues, obviously,

793
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: Congress is one sort of avenue, and there's important legislation

794
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, sort of being proposed there.

795
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: But I actually think that.

796
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 2: There are a lot of levers of power here, whether

797
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: you're talking about federal regulators like the SEC, Treasury, Fed,

798
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: and so forth, but also states and localities. You know,

799
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 2: we're talking about some of these tactics that I think

800
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: can be harmful for companies in the long term, you know,

801
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: sale lease backs, dividend recapitalizations. States could just simply say,

802
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to legislate to say, if the

803
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: company's headquartered in our district, you know, in our jurisdiction,

804
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: you can't do some of these tactics, or if you

805
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: do them and the company goes bankrupt, the workers are

806
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: going to get paid first. And I actually think that

807
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: there really is interest at the state level on this,

808
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 2: but we've got to you know, folks need to draft

809
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: up the legislation and there needs to be the push

810
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 2: for it. I think that's where the real change is

811
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: going to happen in the next few years. Right towards

812
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: the end of your book, you talk about different scenarios

813
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: that the country could take. And some people financially think

814
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: it's like Japan in the eighties and nineties, like heading

815
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: for a financial fall, and some people think it's like

816
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: whymar Germany, and but you kind of say, there's also

817
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: this hopeful possibility that it's like America at the turn

818
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: of the twenty like nineteen oh three, and you know,

819
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: emphasize that we generally today don't recognize how bad it

820
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: was at that time and how like incremental the changes were.

821
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: We just see, oh, in the earliest twentieth century, the

822
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: New Deal happened, so must have been must have been good.

823
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: There were Gatsby parties, and then the New Deal came

824
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 2: through in response to how lavish the Gatsby parties were.

825
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: But it was generations of people working on very specific changes,

826
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: right that got us out out of that very similar

827
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: situation where it was just unregulated capital running rough shop

828
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: over the country. Yeah, the Gilded Age worked wonderfully for

829
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: a select few people, but was a miserating for you know,

830
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: so many. Whether it was the movement to stop the

831
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: labor movement to use the anti trust laws to actually

832
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: break up labor unions but protect monopolies, the movement actually

833
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: to rescind suffrage for working class people in New York

834
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: and the institution of Jim Crow in the South that

835
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 2: was endorsed by the New York Times. I think you said, right, yeah, yeah,

836
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: the New York Times endorsed, Yeah, rescinding suffrage for I

837
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: think working class white men. So but you know, in

838
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: some ways it was it was a politics or an

839
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: economy that's very similar to ours. The trusts of the

840
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: early twentieth century legally are very similar to how private

841
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: equity firms work. And a century ago we managed to

842
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 2: constrain the trust you know, we created the first, you know,

843
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: you know, the most robust anti trust laws. We created

844
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: the Federal Trade Commission, We passed labor laws, environmental laws,

845
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 2: passed women's suffrage, and so forth. It was a time

846
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 2: that was really really transformative for the country, and ultimately,

847
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, sort of set the stage for sort of

848
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: the greatest moment in American middle class history, you know,

849
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: the nineteen forties and fifties, And so if we've done

850
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 2: it once, we can do it again. We just need

851
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: to have the patience and the will to do so.

852
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, in a way to offset all the lobbying efforts,

853
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: which I'm sure if a state starts saying things like, yeah,

854
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 3: we're thinking about enacting some laws that would really constrain

855
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: private equity, you're just going to start seeing as like,

856
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: don't vote for this, because we're going to leave your

857
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 3: state and you're going to be broke, so don't even

858
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 3: think about it, and then off we go. And I

859
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: think part of that is for people to really understand

860
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: the threat that this sort of untethered greed operates and

861
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: how it affects us in ways that are just so tangible,

862
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 3: but yet we think are like again like for me,

863
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: I was like, there's just so nebulous. I'm like, it's

864
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 3: just part of this vast thing of all the money

865
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: moving in one direction versus also very specific groups of

866
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 3: people looking at it in this way and were just

867
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 3: sort of experiencing the lack of investment on the other side.

868
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: I wonder how many triangle shirtwaist fires that'll take for

869
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 3: us to wake up out of this one, because I

870
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 3: feel like we're averaging like one a day.

871
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's really interesting.

872
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 5: I mean you sort of look at the number of

873
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: legal tragedies that are happening in private equity portfolio companies,

874
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 5: and yet the private equity firms, you know, are rarely

875
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 5: held accountable. I will say, just you know, as a

876
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 5: as a workaday, you know, bureaucrat, I will say that,

877
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 5: don't underestimate your power and influence as a person outside

878
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 5: of government. People inside of government listen to complaints and

879
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 5: you know, if you're saying this is a broken system,

880
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 5: this is not working, it really empowers people in a

881
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 5: bureaucracy to try, you know, who want to do the

882
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 5: right thing, to feel like they've got people on their side.

883
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 5: So I felt that personally. I know others people do

884
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 5: do too, So I know that can be a somewhat

885
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 5: frustrating thing to hear, but it really does make a

886
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 5: difference for folks.

887
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: And yeah, just not having it happen quietly invisibly like that,

888
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: when when you just tell this story, it is the

889
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: sort of story that people respond to. It is an

890
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 2: all out war being waged on the lives of people

891
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: who aren't extremely wealthy by people who are extremely, extremely wealthy.

892
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: Like it's just, it is that simple. It's they they

893
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: are taking away comforts and you know, things that people

894
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: rely on and getting rich off of it. It's pretty

895
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: pretty straightforward. And I'm glad you told the story in

896
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: your book. I'm hoping more more and more people kind

897
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: of continue to tell it. So and thanks for coming

898
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: on and talking to us about it.

899
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: And yeah, I got to say, normally I don't talk

900
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 3: to the feds, but this has been fantastic.

901
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 5: Well, thank you guys so much for the time. I

902
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 5: really appreciate it.

903
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, where can people what can you remind us the

904
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: name of the book and where people can read it

905
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: and all that good stuff. It's plunder, private equities, plans

906
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: to pillage America and you can buy it anywhere you

907
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: might buy a book.

908
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: Perfect or Barnes and Noble also private equity.

909
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Brendan Blue, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it.

910
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. All right, that was our interview

911
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 2: with Brendan Man. I learned a lot from this book.

912
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, how when I read a

913
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: New Yorker article. I'll like reference it at least five

914
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: times over the course of the next week, like this

915
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 2: is it's over for you, hos, Like this is all

916
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to be referencing from now.

917
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 3: Wait, so is this going to push out coal gas

918
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 3: study Havan syndrome.

919
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: So those are just the those are the keepers, those

920
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 2: are the.

921
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 3: Ones that those are like that try you and God

922
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: of your mind. Yeah exactly, Yeah, but those will not

923
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 3: be usurped. But yeah, again, I think it's it's so

924
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: helpful to like be able to be like that's why

925
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: these certain things got shitty, yeah, you know, or like again,

926
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 3: like toy store.

927
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: The toy store really fucking did it for me. Man.

928
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: That was the one where I was like, oh, yeah,

929
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: there's no reason there should be Like kids still, yeah,

930
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: I can speak kids really still fucking like toys, I

931
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 2: can tell you that much. Now we just have the

932
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 2: toy section of Target and there are no toy stores.

933
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: And I remember at the end of the Toys r

934
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: Us run, like going to Toys r Us to like

935
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: for a kid's birthday party, get get a toy, and

936
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: it was just wildly understaffed and it looked and like

937
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: it looked like Sears did when it was going out

938
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: of business. Yeah, like they're the floors are kind of

939
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: torn up, like think they're just like boxes of like

940
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: palettes laying around because they just are totally understaffed. And

941
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 2: it makes total sense that they just you know, pact

942
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: that these workers are lazy, right exactly, which is what

943
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: I was yelling. But you know what, but that is

944
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 2: the kind of shit older people was saying. Of course,

945
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: they were like, I don't know what the hell happened here?

946
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: These people are so lazy.

947
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 3: And then you're like, no, it's being like sucked the

948
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 3: life sucked out of it from the inside financially, and

949
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 3: what you're seeing is like the husk of a once

950
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: operating business.

951
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is having the fact that this is

952
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: like like a an epidemic that is across the entire economy,

953
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: like more people are being asked to do more work

954
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: or fewer people are being asked to do more work,

955
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: like just everywhere, and so yeah, everybody's going to be

956
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: like immiserated, as you know, like I think hey used

957
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: to that word, and really, you know, both on the

958
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: customer side and on the employee side, these companies absolutely

959
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 2: spread misery as part of their business model and become billionaires.

960
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: That's the wild part too, is like you get you know,

961
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 3: we talk about all the time, how like human life

962
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 3: gets reduced to like a number figure on a spreadsheet,

963
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 3: and that's truly how these people are looking at it

964
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 3: when you have only guys who have finance brain being like, yeah, yeah,

965
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 3: I can help operate a healthcare provider. Watch this, snip

966
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 3: snip snip, And then you know, we just continue to

967
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 3: talk about the the ongoing movement of privatization and how that's.

968
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 2: Only going to lead to fucking disaster. Yeah.

969
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 3: It also made me realize too, like when I was

970
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 3: lobbying for for profit colleges, like how like the for

971
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 3: profit college section is really wild. I mean that was

972
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: the thing that helped loosen my brain to be like

973
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 3: I don't I can't be doing this, Like I can't

974
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 3: be consulting like this at all. But then really, even then,

975
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 3: the private equity part was a little bit abstract to me, sure,

976
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 3: like I was only the company levels the company. Yeah yeah, yeah, anyway,

977
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 3: I'm stupid and that's easy to say now.

978
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: But we yeah, we're we're all part of this system

979
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 2: that has just been attacked invisibly. And this is the

980
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: first time I've just seen somebody say it out let,

981
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 2: you know, in print, just be like, this is the company,

982
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: this is what they're doing. It is like the most

983
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: deeply anti I don't know, it's just it's it's so

984
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 2: clear cut. It just seems wild that nobody said it

985
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: out loud up to this point. Yeah, people probably have been.

986
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 2: It's wild that I haven't read it to this point,

987
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 2: and it's probably because the phrase private equity made my

988
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: brain go to sleep.

989
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 3: I also blame the New Yorker from not making a

990
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: cartoon about it.

991
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: Thank you. Understand, all right, we're gonna take one more break.

992
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 2: We're gonna come back. And hear from a reader who

993
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: has some job experience that is somewhat related to this.

994
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: It seems like it's operating the same principles with one

995
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: of the industries we're just talking about. Yeah, we'll be

996
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: right back, and we're back. And I was talking to

997
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: a former guest this weekend. I'm not gonna out them,

998
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: but like when I was taught.

999
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 3: As I'm actually the two thousand episodes and trying to

1000
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 3: forge come back.

1001
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: As I was saying to Brandon, like after reading his book,

1002
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: I've tried to speak to it everywhere because it's like

1003
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: all I can think about. And one of the people

1004
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: I spoke to was like, dental care. That was the

1005
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: one when I was like, it's like this, it's veterinary care,

1006
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 2: it's nine to one one call centers, it's retirement homes,

1007
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: it's dental care. Like dental care was the one that

1008
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: jumped out, and they were like, yeah, you know, I

1009
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: have lived both in the US and in another country,

1010
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 2: and the US like you would see the dentists like

1011
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 2: over and over and over with the same problem. They'd

1012
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: just be like, I don't know, man, like brushmore, you know,

1013
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: and just give you the same solution and just seemed

1014
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: taxed and overwhelmed. And then like when we're able to

1015
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 2: have this problem fixed and oh hey you said a bit.

1016
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 3: No, I mean I think, yeah, we can pay justin

1017
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 3: you can censor that.

1018
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: But anyways, so the dental industry, we have a listener

1019
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: who works in billing in the dental industry and also

1020
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: works with insurance companies. Again, this similar logic in that

1021
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 2: even without even if the listener's company is not owned

1022
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 2: by private equity, it seems to operate on a similar

1023
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 2: logic of like making things really profitably for them, unprofitably

1024
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: for the consumer. Very complicated, very annoying to deal with.

1025
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 3: When it comes to insurance, it's like incentivized bumbling and

1026
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 3: incentivized miscommunication or non communication. And then be like, oh,

1027
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 3: you know here from us, well you owe us that.

1028
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 3: Now we got those interests on top of that, now

1029
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 3: you owe us more money. But shout out to this listener,

1030
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 3: and I believe we'll be okay using your name because

1031
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 3: it is a handle. We'll call this person pirate Pam. Yeah,

1032
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,800
Speaker 3: which is actually great because we're talking calling it pirate equity.

1033
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: But anyway, Pirate Pam has been saying, you know, she's like,

1034
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 3: you're not working dental and insurance, and I can tell

1035
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 3: you a little bit about how how wacky it is.

1036
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 3: And when we started talking on discord, I was like,

1037
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 3: oh no, walk me through it a little bit. And

1038
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 3: I said, when did you realize how fucked up shit

1039
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 3: was with like indental insurance and how you work with it?

1040
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: And this what you said quote. I think it was

1041
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 3: just a lot of disbelief. I went to business school

1042
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 3: and was taught how important it was to close out

1043
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 3: your accounts and be efficient with accounting. I used to

1044
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 3: work for a medium large private manufacturing company, and we

1045
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 3: were all about production efficiency and technology improvement. Then I

1046
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 3: found out that many times insurance companies will be inefficient

1047
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 3: with their claims processing as a strategy allegedly. Okay, we're

1048
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 3: putting that there legally. My boss actually told me that

1049
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 3: when I started. My boss actually told me that when

1050
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: I started, and I honestly didn't believe him until I

1051
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 3: saw it for myself. They quote lose our claims all

1052
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 3: the time and have a terrible back end system for

1053
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 3: cataloging information. I knew that insurance companies were evil and

1054
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 3: that they raised rates, refused to cover procedures, et cetera,

1055
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 3: but just didn't expect to trickle all the way down

1056
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 3: to their day to day business off business processes. I

1057
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 3: have some pretty blatant examples that just boil my blood.

1058
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: It has really radicalized me even further to the point

1059
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 3: where I don't even believe people should be able to

1060
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 3: purchase private insurance on top of universal coverage. They will

1061
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 3: do anything and everything in their power to squeeze profit

1062
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 3: out of.

1063
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: People in need, so basically not deliver the thing that

1064
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: it is their job to deliver, which yes, yeah, that

1065
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: is interesting to hear because you know, like the whole thing,

1066
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 2: the whole logic of the universe that is created in

1067
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: this story about private equity in Pirate Pam's story about

1068
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: what it's completely like the central gravitational like force, like

1069
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 2: the gravitational center of the entire like capitalistic enterprise was

1070
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 2: supposed to be to deliver value in exchange for money, right,

1071
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: like that, That's what a business is designed to do,

1072
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: is to solve a problem, address a need some thing.

1073
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 2: And the better you are at that, the more likely

1074
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: you are to get repeat customer. Like there's just this

1075
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: very central core gravitational center, like economic like center, central

1076
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 2: truth that is supposed to be at work. And I

1077
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,919
Speaker 2: think we've just like crossed over to a place where

1078
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: like that seems even like that seems idealistic for me

1079
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 2: to even say that at this.

1080
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,919
Speaker 3: Point, right, Or it's kind of like what Brendan said,

1081
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: there's two versions.

1082
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: Right.

1083
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 3: There's the version for working people, right, and you have

1084
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 3: no alternatives and you're basically checkmated there. And then if

1085
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 3: you have a little bit more money, then you do

1086
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 3: have the ability to be like, well, I'm not going

1087
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 3: to stand for this specific kind of treatment. Yeah, And

1088
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 3: do you just see how much that chasm just grows

1089
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 3: more and more and more as the companies that are

1090
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 3: like quote unquote smarter, like you got to go after

1091
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: like the working people businesses. Yeah, because if you own

1092
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,439
Speaker 3: every dermatology practice in a county, what are they gonna

1093
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 3: do leave the county for cheaper rates. No, Now, we

1094
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 3: determine what the market is and it's you know, rinse

1095
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 3: and repeat.

1096
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 2: The whole enterprise on the private equity side, like really

1097
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: resembles a Ponzi scheme. So like that when I was

1098
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: asking him like about how this is like the new

1099
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: hot place to work in the world of finance, Like

1100
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: that's it's it's not just that like these are isolated

1101
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: companies doing this. It's also like the like people are

1102
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: seeing that this is a system that works and makes

1103
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 2: you incredibly wealthy, and like that in that industry is

1104
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 2: like kind of what is worshiped and held up and

1105
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 2: you know, pursued by other people who work in that industry.

1106
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 2: And then also like on the level of you know,

1107
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: we've talked before about how it seems like we're increasingly

1108
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 2: interested in scams because it feels like the entire economy

1109
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 2: has turned into a scam. Like these most successful companies

1110
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: of the past ten years, the ones who have become

1111
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: as you know, big as Amazon and Walmart, suddenly without

1112
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 2: us ever learning their names, like they are doing it

1113
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 2: by extracting fees, and you know, that is the mo

1114
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 2: of the moment, and so of course, like it's going

1115
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 2: to trickle down everywhere. Like people aren't stupid, they recognize

1116
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: what's being done to them. They're just without power or

1117
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: without people advocating on their behalf or without options.

1118
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 3: Right, And I think that's why we're kind of at

1119
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 3: the end of that discussion with Brendan. It's like you

1120
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 3: go from fighting an invisible enemy to now beginning to

1121
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: define at least one very specific kind and seeing how

1122
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 3: it works among many other things that are moving in

1123
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: are like global economy. But I want to add the

1124
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 3: part where I asked pirate Pam, I said, what can

1125
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 3: you just talk about like one thing you deal with

1126
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 3: and and you're like, these people are fucking around like

1127
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 3: that you know this is bullshit and say quote one

1128
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 3: instance was when I had to send a bunch of

1129
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: documentation and X rays for a claim that they didn't

1130
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 3: want to pay the insurance. We got a letter from

1131
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 3: the insurance company that they had received all of our

1132
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: documentation and that we didn't need to do anything else.

1133
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 3: I call them out a month or so later, These

1134
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: appeals can take a while, and they said they had

1135
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 3: never received any of it from us. We also have

1136
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 3: a lot where we send it two to three times

1137
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 3: and they still claim they have never received anything. So again,

1138
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 3: just part of like the inefficiency, whether it's like you know,

1139
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 3: intentional or just part and parcel of understaffing whatever, it

1140
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 3: tends to benefit you know, them in the long term,

1141
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 3: long term which.

1142
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 2: Talk for them to be inefficient. Yeah, and we are.

1143
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you realize how much you know. There are other

1144
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 3: examples from that book that are just wild about like yeah,

1145
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 3: you buy like a clothing store and then you're like, yeah,

1146
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 3: I guess what now you're only going to buy clothes

1147
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 3: from this other company we own, right, Yeah, you're doing

1148
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 3: like the Mike Tyson meme with the pigeons saying now

1149
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 3: kiss but just like the corporate raider for like you're like, what,

1150
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 3: we don't even buy clothes from this way? Like no,

1151
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 3: now you do you?

1152
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 2: We don't care about you yeah. Yeah, and and then

1153
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,439
Speaker 2: we're just like, man, J Crew really lost it. Huh,

1154
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 2: they really got real crappy, got real crappy. All of

1155
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: a sudden, Toys r US just started having palettes of

1156
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: toys half ripped open laying around when you walked in.

1157
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 3: That was weird. Yeah, that's a new policy. No, No,

1158
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 3: you're seeing the you're seeing the thing turned into a

1159
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 3: ghost in real time.

1160
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so wild. The comparison, Like, I do think a

1161
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 2: lot about the how the Gilded Age, the last Gilded

1162
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: Age in the US like somehow turned into the New

1163
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: Deal and like they're being actually beneficial to America socialism

1164
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 2: in a lot of cases. And if we could do

1165
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: that without the racism that the first New Deal had,

1166
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 2: like incremental like just but these those things did happen incrementally,

1167
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,479
Speaker 2: right that Yeah, change, I mean.

1168
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 3: A lot of work, And I honestly, I think that's

1169
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 3: why we see a lot of emphasis from the powers

1170
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 3: that be to like try and make younger people as

1171
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 3: ignorant as possible, or make them like take back their

1172
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 3: ability to vote by raising the voting age. There's a

1173
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 3: lot where I think already I think just existing in

1174
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 3: the United States is probably one of the most potent

1175
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 3: radicalizing forces right now for young people merely just being

1176
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 3: alive and observing things, and hopefully that manifests into like

1177
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: a huge wave of like you know that the numbers

1178
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,959
Speaker 3: are there to have like bigger changes rather than people

1179
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 3: that are holding onto the scraps of yesteryear.

1180
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would highly recommend people people check out this book.

1181
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 2: If that conversation was interesting to you. Yeah, Miles, I

1182
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: would highly recommend they check out you on social media.

1183
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: Where can people find you?

1184
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 3: My goodness, to find me on Twitter, Instagram at Miles

1185
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 3: of Gray. Check out Miles and Jack on our basketball

1186
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 3: I said, Miles and I went third person on them. Anyway,

1187
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 3: find us on our basketball podcast. Miles and I got

1188
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 3: mad Boosti's And if you're gonna be in Las Vegas

1189
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 3: for NBA Con, well, guess what. Guess what will your boys,

1190
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 3: because we're gonna be on there doing a couple of

1191
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 3: live shows. And hey, if you got recommendations about Vegas,

1192
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 3: you want to take us out for a spin in

1193
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 3: your cool Lamborghini or helicopter ride to the Grand Caple.

1194
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 3: But yeah, oh I'll hop in. I'll hop in a

1195
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 3: Lambo with a listener. I don't care. I don't know

1196
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 3: where that ends up.

1197
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: Finally, answer that question, how I get to.

1198
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do I get the Lambeau? I had somebody

1199
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 3: rent one in Vegas and we got in it.

1200
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

1201
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: And then you can find me on forty with Sophia

1202
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 3: Alexandra talking non political, non serious stuff like ninety Day

1203
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: Fiance or Love is Blind?

1204
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: All right, And is there a work a media that

1205
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 2: you've been enjoying.

1206
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 3: Uh, honestly I have. It's probably from Uh. I got

1207
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 3: a shout out again. We talked about this on the

1208
01:03:54,600 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 3: Trending episode yesterday at Underscore, ched earthling Urgev and Siaga,

1209
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 3: who definitely got the Portuguese flag flying in that Twitter

1210
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 3: display name put us onto this like TikTok, fucking like

1211
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 3: just mash up of all these kids protect like just

1212
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 3: trying the new Grimace Shake from McDonald's and then just

1213
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 3: ending up in like the worst horrifying physical positions or situation.

1214
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, shout out to shout out to that video.

1215
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 3: It's it's I don't know, I don't know what you search.

1216
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 3: Just search Grimace Shake causing irreversible damage to society.

1217
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 2: Just go look at Miles' likes on Twitter you know

1218
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: how about this, gonna retweet it? There you go. That

1219
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: makes it easy.

1220
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 3: Boom, check that out.

1221
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: Check that out, and you can find me on Twitter

1222
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 2: at Jack Underscore O'Brien. A couple of tweets I enjoyed

1223
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,439
Speaker 2: over the weekend picture of George Bush finding out about

1224
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: nine to eleven and somebody saying a second Russia has

1225
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 2: hit the Russia, which I thought summed it up pretty

1226
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: nicely what it felt like at first, tearing at Young

1227
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: Hitty tweeted, the baby is kicking. He must like vodka

1228
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 2: Red bulls. Oh my fascinating. Tweeted a picture of the

1229
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: founder of Gucci and said the life of Gucci O Gucci,

1230
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 2: founder of Gucci, and Zach Raffio retweeted that and said

1231
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 2: the life of Dunkey No Duncan, founder of Dunkin, And

1232
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 2: then Sydney Battle tweeted, whoever came up with the word

1233
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: morsels was correct? Yeah, perfectly named.

1234
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, where'd that come from? Maybe some etymologies in the store.

1235
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist.

1236
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 2: We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a

1237
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 2: Facebook fanpage and a website, Daily zeikeis dot com. Where

1238
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 2: he posts our episodes and our footnotes take off to

1239
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: the information that we talked about in today's episode, as

1240
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 2: well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Well,

1241
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 2: that's what's the song the people might enjoy.

1242
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 3: Oh well, guess what You've died and gone to Babe Heaven,

1243
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: because that's the name of this West London band, Babe Heaven.

1244
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 3: Really great man, this track is just like again, it's

1245
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 3: called make Me Wanna And apparently like this group started

1246
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 3: off with like two friends who were like really into

1247
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 3: groups like Massive Attack and stuff and trip hop and

1248
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 3: then slowly started getting their band together. And y'all are

1249
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 3: making some good music now. If you like Massive Attack

1250
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 3: and stuff like that Cocktail Twins, check this group out.

1251
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 3: But this is a track make Me Wanna by Babe Heaven.

1252
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 2: All right, well we will link off to that in

1253
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 2: the footnotes. The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio.

1254
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1255
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 2: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1256
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 2: That's gonna do it for us this morning, back this

1257
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 2: afternoon to tell you what's trending, and we'll talk to

1258
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 2: you all then Bye.

1259
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 3: Bye,