Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Aukshatrati. This week Romina Greta and
Speaker 1: the new politics of climate change. Sweden was the first
Speaker 1: country to set a net zero by twenty forty five
Speaker 1: target and wants to achieve net negative emissions after that.
Speaker 1: Sounds great, but there's been political upheaval. The new coalition
Speaker 1: government formed in October is reliant on support of a
Speaker 1: far right party that thinks climate change is a myth.
Speaker 1: Member Austrainia comer al Quaman Temperata the broad Fish. That's
Speaker 1: Elsa Widding of the Sweden Democrats, who told Parliament in
Speaker 1: her maiden speech that she didn't think there was clear
Speaker 1: evidence of human caused climate change. A different government hasn't
Speaker 1: just led to different rhetoric. Since the new coalition came
Speaker 1: to power, the Climate and Environment Ministry has been folded
Speaker 1: into the Business Ministry. Spending on nature, climate and the
Speaker 1: environment has been cut for this year and will be
Speaker 1: reduced by sixty percent by twenty twenty five. Despite this,
Speaker 1: the new Prime Minister, Wolf Christersen has said that climate
Speaker 1: is still one of his government's priorities, and he appointed
Speaker 1: a new ambitious climate minister, Romina Poor Mactari at twenty
Speaker 1: six years old, she became the country's youngest ever cabinet minister.
Speaker 1: Romina is a member of the Liberal Party and the
Speaker 1: daughter of Iranians who fled the country during the nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy nine revolution. She rarely gives interviews in English and
Speaker 1: so at the World Economic Forum in Davos, I sat
Speaker 1: down with her to find out how her first hundred
Speaker 1: days in government have gone, her thoughts on working with
Speaker 1: the far right party, how Sweden will meet its big
Speaker 1: climate commitments, and what she hopes to achieve on climate
Speaker 1: now that Sweden is chairing the European Council. Romina, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you so much. Now. You had
Speaker 1: your own podcast before becoming climate minister. Do you miss it?
Speaker 1: I miss it quite a lot. It's very valuable to
Speaker 1: have these sit down conversations about politics. So wait to
Speaker 1: be here. Nice to Nice to have you now. You
Speaker 1: became Sweden's youngest minister at just twenty six. Were you
Speaker 1: surprised to be made climate minister? Yes? Absolutely. I thought
Speaker 1: my party leader was crazy when he asked me, and
Speaker 1: I told them this is my dream job in ten years,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, we don't have ten years. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of a good point. So it's just to
Speaker 1: roll up the sleeves and get the work done. So
Speaker 1: if you had to pick a ministry that you could
Speaker 1: become minister off, you would pick climate, absolutely I would.
Speaker 1: Why is that? Well? I run for parliament on climate
Speaker 1: matters and I believe that there's somewhat of a development
Speaker 1: where we're trying to create political conflict when it comes
Speaker 1: to climate, and I'm very against that. It's not a
Speaker 1: matter of whether you like wind power or nuclear power,
Speaker 1: or whether you like deforestation or first use. Is a
Speaker 1: matter of doing things in a correct, intelligent smart way,
Speaker 1: making full use of all the science that exists on
Speaker 1: these areas, and I believe that politicians have some potential
Speaker 1: of doing those parts better. So that was what I
Speaker 1: ran for parliament on and got elected on by a
Speaker 1: lot of youth in Sweden. So yeah, I'm really looking
Speaker 1: forward to actually making action out of those ideas. Now
Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners are spread around the globe.
Speaker 1: When they think about a young climate leader in Sweden,
Speaker 1: they probably think about Greta Thinburg. But you are Sweden's
Speaker 1: climate minister. What do you think about Greta's approach to
Speaker 1: climate change. You know, I think it's understandable that my generation,
Speaker 1: parts of my generation have lost confidence in politics as
Speaker 1: the method of lowering our missions and reaching actual climate action.
Speaker 1: And I believe that it's somewhat understandable. But from my
Speaker 1: point of view, I want to be where the decisions
Speaker 1: are being made, and I know that even though politics
Speaker 1: is quite complicated and slow, that's where the change is
Speaker 1: actually being made. So if you want things to truly happen,
Speaker 1: of course it's good to have a lot of demonstrations.
Speaker 1: For example, in Glasgow there was a lot of demonstration
Speaker 1: and that was a good pressuring point for the meeting.
Speaker 1: But the actual decisions are being made in the room.
Speaker 1: So that's the way that I make the change that
Speaker 1: I want to see in the society. And as Minister,
Speaker 1: of course, you've got to be in those rooms. So
Speaker 1: you were at COP twenty seven in Egypt, you went
Speaker 1: to COP fifteen in Montreal. Let's just understand what you
Speaker 1: found to be different when you went to COP twenty seven.
Speaker 1: At COP twenty six, there were lots of protests had
Speaker 1: happened in Glasgow, an open democratic country. Cup twenty seven
Speaker 1: happened in Egypt, oppressive regime where the outcomes were interesting too.
Speaker 1: How was the experience for you, Well, I think we
Speaker 1: all learned some you know, lessons on what became better
Speaker 1: until next time. And I think that concerns not only us,
Speaker 1: like Sweden and the EU, but many parts like We
Speaker 1: did have some progress. It was not a step back,
Speaker 1: which I was worried about going there. There has been progress,
Speaker 1: but of course not enough, and the urgency that is
Speaker 1: dominating the work that needs to be done is not
Speaker 1: reflected in the results, so obviously it's not good enough.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, civil society, of course, plays
Speaker 1: a big role in that. The first thing I did
Speaker 1: when I got to COP twenty seven was to have
Speaker 1: a meeting with civil rights defender and activist in Egypt.
Speaker 1: And I think it's very important for the democratic countries
Speaker 1: of the world to show that there is an important
Speaker 1: aspect of how we work politically. But I also believe
Speaker 1: it's a matter of you know, understanding each other. After
Speaker 1: the pandemic and with the situation we have in the world,
Speaker 1: with Russia's aggressive war against Ukraine and economic situation that
Speaker 1: is developing, there's a lot of tension in the world,
Speaker 1: and of course that is also reflected in U negotiations.
Speaker 1: Now beyond the lack of activism in Egypt, the European Union,
Speaker 1: Sweden being part of it, wanted language on fossil fuel
Speaker 1: phase out all fossil fuels, oil, gas and coal, and
Speaker 1: that did not come through in the end. We understand
Speaker 1: countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and China were resistant and
Speaker 1: made sure that it didn't get through. We're going to
Speaker 1: head into the UA at COP twenty eight, which is
Speaker 1: another fossil fuel country, and the president of COP twenty
Speaker 1: eight is the head of the state oil company. How
Speaker 1: do you think conversations will go there, Will it be
Speaker 1: an inclusive process and produce a fair outcome for climate
Speaker 1: vulnerable countries? Well, I think it's very important to reflect on,
Speaker 1: especially being here in the BOSS, what future are we
Speaker 1: headed towards? And when you look at any economic report,
Speaker 1: of course you can collect the breadcrumbs of the fossil
Speaker 1: dependent economy, but you're gonna lose on not investing in
Speaker 1: the future that we headed towards. Leading the copy meetings
Speaker 1: is truly an opportunity to show how you can be
Speaker 1: the honest broker and bring work forward. And if there's
Speaker 1: a meeting where you can sense that that is not
Speaker 1: what's being done. I think the UAE are the ones
Speaker 1: who are going to lose on it internationally, reputation wise,
Speaker 1: prestige wise. You'd want to have a successful meeting and
Speaker 1: we will not be impressed by the what do you
Speaker 1: call it? Would call it like curtain shows in Swedish.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the English word, but you know,
Speaker 1: the charade, it's not good enough. It has to be
Speaker 1: done for real, and I hope that the UAE, as
Speaker 1: an entrepreneurial country wanting to keep their economy strong, will
Speaker 1: have that in aspect when they take on the meeting.
Speaker 1: And you know, some people tend to call me a
Speaker 1: bit of naive, but I haven't lost hope. When I've
Speaker 1: met with the ministers of UAE and discussed upcoming cop meetings,
Speaker 1: I see that they want to have a successful meeting.
Speaker 1: So let's hope that they succeed and they do everything
Speaker 1: we can to contribute. When you were Main Minister, the
Speaker 1: government abolished the Environment Ministry and created a Climate and
Speaker 1: Business Ministry instead. Now, climate is an issue that affects
Speaker 1: lots and lots of parts of the economy, and so
Speaker 1: it makes sense that you have something that would enable
Speaker 1: the government to think more holistically, but it's also a
Speaker 1: specialized issue. And so how is it that having a
Speaker 1: ministry that is focused on climate and business is better
Speaker 1: than having a ministry that is focused on environment and climate. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, my government wants to gather these issues because
Speaker 1: it's cross sectoral issues, and we neither have the time
Speaker 1: nor the money to keep pulling in different directions, which
Speaker 1: is what we have seen for the last years. We've
Speaker 1: seen a lot of situations where companies, industries who are
Speaker 1: actually working towards creating philosophic goods have had a lot
Speaker 1: of difficulties with environmental permits and other things. So we've
Speaker 1: had situations that have been politically tense where we see
Speaker 1: that we are wasting both time and money by pulling
Speaker 1: in different directions. So we want to tackle these issues
Speaker 1: in a different way. And I think that there's a
Speaker 1: big misconception on what climate transition is and actually also
Speaker 1: creating a sustainable environment, taking care of our biodiversity laws
Speaker 1: and prohibiting that. There's this kind of view on trying
Speaker 1: to suffocate the economic growth, and you know, having industries
Speaker 1: that are swarmed with legislation and environmental laws and taxes.
Speaker 1: It's rather ongoing change to our society. It's rather something
Speaker 1: like the industrialization or the digitalization. It's an ongoing development
Speaker 1: happening to our society that we need to do quicker
Speaker 1: than we're doing, and we need to do it smarter
Speaker 1: than we're doing. And Sweden is an extremely export dependent country,
Speaker 1: quite a small country, and we don't want our economy
Speaker 1: to get worse. Of course, we want to build on
Speaker 1: the future that we're headed towards, which is a sustainable economy.
Speaker 1: So we want to invest in that heavily by promoting
Speaker 1: in our industries and businesses to actually take climate action
Speaker 1: for real and create the fossil free goods that the
Speaker 1: world is actually demanding as well. So we see the
Speaker 1: big demand for the climate neutral development in the business sector,
Speaker 1: and we want to meet that from the political side,
Speaker 1: from policy side, you gathering these issues. There have been
Speaker 1: some reports that there will be a reduction in climate
Speaker 1: and environment funding in Sweden by as much as sixty percent.
Speaker 1: Is that right, No, it's not. When it comes to
Speaker 1: funding and aid we actually we've made some priorities when
Speaker 1: it comes to international aids. So for example, we're doubling
Speaker 1: our climate aid, and we're doubling the money that we
Speaker 1: give to the Global Environmental Fund, and we're trying to
Speaker 1: initiate a change. But also a big part of the
Speaker 1: work that swedened us for climate transition is by exporting
Speaker 1: are not only like fossil free goods that we have,
Speaker 1: but also our innovation. And we really think that that
Speaker 1: is a key in not only lowering our our own
Speaker 1: consumption and emissions, but lowering our consumption based emissions abroad.
Speaker 1: So it's not only a matter of Sweden coming out
Speaker 1: at top and reaching our goal of net zero emissions
Speaker 1: in twenty forty five, it's also a matter of creating
Speaker 1: a positive impact in the world. And just in terms
Speaker 1: of sums, when you say doubling towards the Global Environment
Speaker 1: Fund and doubling towards the Climate Fund, how much money
Speaker 1: are we talking? Oh gosh, that's a good question. I
Speaker 1: have it somewhere. We fact check this with the ministry
Speaker 1: later and found that Sweden is doubling its contribution to
Speaker 1: the Global Environment Facility. However, the new government's budget presented
Speaker 1: in October shows that the country's overall spending on environment,
Speaker 1: climate and nature is due to decline by sixty percent
Speaker 1: by twenty twenty five. Half of the reduction is due
Speaker 1: to the scrapping of a low emissions vehicle subsidy, which
Speaker 1: will end in twenty twenty four. There have also been
Speaker 1: cuts made to the Swedish Environmental Protection Agency and conservation spending,
Speaker 1: among other reductions. Onto politics, the government that is in
Speaker 1: power takes support from Sweden Democrats because without them there
Speaker 1: is no majority. How do you justify taking support from
Speaker 1: a very right wing party whose members, some of them
Speaker 1: believe that climate change is a myth. Well, we had
Speaker 1: a really long discussion in my party. We have a
Speaker 1: high ceiling when it comes to opinions, and we had
Speaker 1: a big discussion where I was actually against cooperating with
Speaker 1: the Sweden Democrats and we have had discussions on whether
Speaker 1: we should stay in opposition for more years. But we
Speaker 1: had eight years of red, Green and red government. They
Speaker 1: lost their power a few times because they didn't have
Speaker 1: a majority in the parliament. You know, just a situation
Speaker 1: in Swedish politics that was not a good development, where
Speaker 1: we saw segregation growing, criminality growing, gang members and gang
Speaker 1: violence is a very big issue in Sweden, and we
Speaker 1: saw this development happening while we saw that we didn't
Speaker 1: have the numbers government and the possibility that my party
Speaker 1: decided to grasp onto is agreeing with the Sweden Democrats
Speaker 1: on specific issues. So the issues are it's about economy,
Speaker 1: it's about migration, it's about energy systems and things like these,
Speaker 1: but not matters that are value oriented. So if we'd
Speaker 1: see that I'm not able, for example, as the Minister
Speaker 1: of Climate and Environment to create the change that I
Speaker 1: want to see, I would leave the government and my
Speaker 1: party would leave the government. And this is what we
Speaker 1: ran for parliament with as a concept. You know, vote
Speaker 1: for us, for the liberal guarantees and the liberalism in
Speaker 1: this government. That is government with moderates, Christian Democrats and
Speaker 1: liberals that takes lean on the Sweden Democrats. And of
Speaker 1: course this is also the situation for Sweden Democrats because
Speaker 1: it's not uncontroversial for them to cooperate with having, you know,
Speaker 1: put a liberal, young female minister as Climate Environment. I'm
Speaker 1: guessing a few of their voters are not too happy
Speaker 1: about that. It's yet to see if we'll succeed, but
Speaker 1: as of now, I do see that we are all
Speaker 1: respecting the deal that we made and the matters that
Speaker 1: we need to take care of. But of course we
Speaker 1: are different parties and you should not vote for me
Speaker 1: if you agree with the values that they have. Democracies
Speaker 1: are messy. Yeah, they are promises, absolutely, and I think
Speaker 1: Sweden hasn't had that for quite some time. It's a
Speaker 1: bit of a new development where we have split in
Speaker 1: the voting that we haven't seen before. So we're trying
Speaker 1: to handle it in the best way we can. After
Speaker 1: the break, I ask Romina about Sweden's plan to build
Speaker 1: new nuclear power plants and with the resignation of New
Speaker 1: Zealand Prime Minister Justinda Arden, how she deals with burnout. Now,
Speaker 1: Sweden is among the few countries in Europe that has
Speaker 1: a large dependence on nuclear when it comes to clean energy,
Speaker 1: and you are planning to build more nuclear power plants
Speaker 1: or one do at least. Is there political support for
Speaker 1: nuclear power in Sweden? Yes, there is and it's growing.
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is if you look at the reports,
Speaker 1: the support for nuclear power is the absolutely biggest in
Speaker 1: the municipalities that have nuclear power plants, so that's where
Speaker 1: people are most positive towards it. And are you taking
Speaker 1: the message that nuclear can be a climate solution abroad,
Speaker 1: because it's still a controversial issue in many, many parts
Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah, and it's not weird that it
Speaker 1: is a controversial issue. I think that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of worries and misconceptions about how nuclear power works and
Speaker 1: the development that has been made, not least in Europe,
Speaker 1: where we've invested so many billions of euros to create
Speaker 1: scientific development and how we use these techniques to get
Speaker 1: the energy. But the development that we're seeing with for example,
Speaker 1: small modular reactors that can stabilize our energy system and
Speaker 1: also you know, nuclear power being planable, so you know
Speaker 1: when you get the power, which is very important for
Speaker 1: our industries to be able to actually bet and take
Speaker 1: the risks on electrifying their industries. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a matter of whether I, as a politician prioritize
Speaker 1: nuclear or wind power, because I'm looking at those things
Speaker 1: as well. We have a lot of offshore wind power
Speaker 1: coming up and we're looking at how we can create
Speaker 1: the optimized conditions for that. So you know, we're trying
Speaker 1: to create a robust energy system in Sweden because we
Speaker 1: have not had that, and the whole of Europe have
Speaker 1: learned the lesson in the hard way with Russia during
Speaker 1: the war using their gas as a war mechanism and
Speaker 1: pressure in European countries. So we have learned the harsh
Speaker 1: way that we truly have to switch towards fossil free
Speaker 1: and I think that nuclear power has a part to
Speaker 1: play in that. Now beyond nuclear but sticking to security,
Speaker 1: you've said climate is not just about taxes and regulations,
Speaker 1: but their climate issues are also a security policy issue.
Speaker 1: How do you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine has
Speaker 1: changed energy security conversations in Sweden and what are you
Speaker 1: doing as a result. Well, I think not least, we
Speaker 1: have learned a lot about how our energy systems work.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of hydropower in Sweden and that's
Speaker 1: a possibility to store the electricity as well, so it's
Speaker 1: been very beneficial and I think in Sweden we've felt
Speaker 1: quite comfortable with the situation we have regarding energy. We
Speaker 1: also export a lot of energy, which makes people think that, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: we're good, but it's a matter of stabilizing our system
Speaker 1: and having the power when we need it, and there
Speaker 1: we have some issues. We don't import a lot of
Speaker 1: Russian gas. We tend to stick to our hydropower, nuclear
Speaker 1: power and wind power, and then we complement with solar
Speaker 1: power and we have thermal heating and you know, different methods.
Speaker 1: But as we in Europe share our energy system and
Speaker 1: export an import a lot, we have to consider and
Speaker 1: take care, so we're also affected. But I think it's
Speaker 1: mostly about knowledge and learning. Also, you know, energy efficiency,
Speaker 1: using our energy in a smarter way, which is very
Speaker 1: important because in Sweden we see from the government side,
Speaker 1: we see a prognosis of doubling more than doubling actually
Speaker 1: our energy use or electricity use actually until twenty forty five,
Speaker 1: so we have to make a big development in the
Speaker 1: energy sector and hopefully this situation where the war can
Speaker 1: speed up this transition. Now Sweden has taken on the
Speaker 1: presidency of the European Council for the first six months
Speaker 1: of this year. How do Sweden's climate goals your policies
Speaker 1: fit into what the European Union is doing and what
Speaker 1: do you want to see during this presidency? What will
Speaker 1: you be able to influence the European Union. You know,
Speaker 1: me as a liberal pro European, I'm a big fan
Speaker 1: of the European Union and my party was very engaged
Speaker 1: in getting me Sweden into the Union. So I'm very
Speaker 1: excited about the presidency and I'm truly looking forward to
Speaker 1: being able to bring the work forward. When it comes
Speaker 1: to climate action, well, European Union is the biggest and
Speaker 1: the most successful climate organization or environmental organization that there is.
Speaker 1: There is no other comparison of a organization or a
Speaker 1: union where you create so many legislative acts and laws
Speaker 1: and incentives that are bringing forward this development, and the
Speaker 1: speed it is going at is very impressive. You know,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of work to do. We have
Speaker 1: the goals, we're trying to work towards them all of
Speaker 1: our countries and we're not all there yet. But I
Speaker 1: think the view of it being we are going to
Speaker 1: reach net zero, that is the exactly correct way of
Speaker 1: tackling our emissions. And the European Union, of course, we
Speaker 1: have the Fit for fifty five package, we have the
Speaker 1: Green Deal and a lot of different parts of that
Speaker 1: which is being finalized. But of course I look forward
Speaker 1: to working on the Industrial Emissions Directive, the Nature Restoration Law,
Speaker 1: and in Sweden we have a lot of consensus when
Speaker 1: it comes to EU matters because we want to take
Speaker 1: care of the view of Sweden in the EU. We
Speaker 1: have a strong stance. We get a lot of possibilities
Speaker 1: to affect the EU through our strong stance, so we
Speaker 1: all take care of it together. Now we've talked a
Speaker 1: lot about cutting emissions and all the energy changes that
Speaker 1: have to be made, but climate impacts are growing. I
Speaker 1: wanted you to bring up a comparison here, which is
Speaker 1: that your parents had to leave it run due to,
Speaker 1: in your words, their freedoms being taken away. It was
Speaker 1: a political revolution and they had to flee. Climate impacts
Speaker 1: are growing, and so are the number of climate refugees.
Speaker 1: Do you think Sweden should do more to welcome climate refugees? Well,
Speaker 1: I think that Sweden should keep being a big part
Speaker 1: of an open world and we try to do that
Speaker 1: best as we can. From twenty fifteen, we had all
Speaker 1: of the political leaders in Sweden talking about Sweden's not
Speaker 1: building any walls and we are the open, welcoming society,
Speaker 1: and then we had an enormous backlash. And this is
Speaker 1: foremost regarding the unemployment, segregation, schools not having places for
Speaker 1: all the kids. Our society was not able to hold
Speaker 1: the standard that people expect in Sweden, and I think
Speaker 1: that that is a failure from the political side. We
Speaker 1: have to, you know, have a dynamic society, dynamic politics
Speaker 1: that adapt towards the society we live in, and that is,
Speaker 1: in my stance as a liberal, a society that can
Speaker 1: be open and welcome people, which we don't have right now.
Speaker 1: So there has to be one or another. You either
Speaker 1: close the borders and you know, you're happy with the
Speaker 1: systems you have, or you try to create systems that
Speaker 1: are allowing and you know, giving the circumstances for a
Speaker 1: bigger migration. And of course I work towards the latter.
Speaker 1: But in Sweden we have a big consensus majority where
Speaker 1: people want to have a migration that is possible for
Speaker 1: us to handle. When it comes to migration authorities, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes like three years to get your permit and
Speaker 1: things like these, so we're trying to catch up. But
Speaker 1: I'm working towards us catching up as quick as we
Speaker 1: can to be able to welcome more people into an
Speaker 1: open society. Now. In twenty nineteen, you gave an interview
Speaker 1: where you said your role model is Alexandria Occasio Cortez.
Speaker 1: Of course, AOC represents the left wing of the Democrats
Speaker 1: in the US. You are a liberal conservative. You believe
Speaker 1: in free markets. You know I'm a liberal. I'm not
Speaker 1: conservative at all. We're believing in free markets and you
Speaker 1: believe in capitalism as a way to solve climate crisis.
Speaker 1: Why is she a role model? Well, in this interview,
Speaker 1: I said she is my role model in not her opinions,
Speaker 1: but how she does things. I think that she's a
Speaker 1: prime example of a political leader that is, you know,
Speaker 1: in touch with you know, the ground, with her voters.
Speaker 1: She knows what she's doing where she comes from, and
Speaker 1: she brings that with her in in what she does,
Speaker 1: and I think that's quite inspiring. I think that's a
Speaker 1: type of politician that I haven't seen for quite some
Speaker 1: time and I've missed, and I aim to be that myself.
Speaker 1: I tried to stay grounded and keep a lot of
Speaker 1: contact with people who vote for me and what their
Speaker 1: perspectives are. And you know, in creating that trust, I'm
Speaker 1: able to get more things done and have more flexibility
Speaker 1: because I know that my vote is trust me that
Speaker 1: I make the correct decisions. And you know, the media
Speaker 1: can write controversial headlines, but my vote is now that
Speaker 1: I know Romina, I know what she's doing, that's probably
Speaker 1: not the whole story, and that is a way of
Speaker 1: actually being like a good politician. I think also uses
Speaker 1: social media very well, especially Instagram. She reaches out and
Speaker 1: she is open about her views and talks to her audience.
Speaker 1: How about you do you use social media for that
Speaker 1: kind of outreach. I used social media a lot. I
Speaker 1: you know, grew a follower base on Twitter and was
Speaker 1: that was kind of how I made a name for
Speaker 1: myself in politics. That was probably why I was offer
Speaker 1: the opportunity to be a columnist and a newspaper and
Speaker 1: things like this. But actually I've become somewhat of negative
Speaker 1: more social media. There's just too much hate and misunderstanding
Speaker 1: because you want to misunderstand. There's not that much of okay,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to learn something here and understand where you're
Speaker 1: coming from and actually trying to meet each other. There's
Speaker 1: more of the you know, shattering and hopefully I can
Speaker 1: contribute to a better climate on social media. But right
Speaker 1: now I'm focused on getting my environmental policies in place.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been a minister for Soon it will
Speaker 1: be one hundred days since the government gone place and
Speaker 1: that's where my focus is. But hopefully I'll be able
Speaker 1: to do a comeback on social media quite soon and
Speaker 1: tell people what I'm doing and try to create a
Speaker 1: positive environment that is not spreading hate and the situation
Speaker 1: that I don't want to contribute to. You were at
Speaker 1: COP fifteen in Montreal. This is a cop that is
Speaker 1: different from TOP twenty seven because this corp discusses biodiversity
Speaker 1: and nature. The crisis around biodiversity is not talked about
Speaker 1: as much as climate change, but if anything, it's probably
Speaker 1: going to have bigger impacts if we don't address it.
Speaker 1: And we've got a deal, and the deal is around
Speaker 1: protecting thirty percent of land and ocean by twenty thirty,
Speaker 1: do you think that's enough. I think it's a good start.
Speaker 1: I see a lot of countries that have very different
Speaker 1: possibilities to do that. My country, for example, Sweden, we
Speaker 1: have a lot of forest and we have a lot
Speaker 1: of private owners of forest who use it in a
Speaker 1: traditional way and they want to take care of their forest.
Speaker 1: They know that they won't be able to make any
Speaker 1: profits if they don't take care of their forest as
Speaker 1: well as the fisheries. You know, if you don't have
Speaker 1: any fish to fish, You're not going to have any
Speaker 1: money either, So there's there has to be a way
Speaker 1: of reaching consensus and having more dialogue when it comes
Speaker 1: to the use of our nature, whether it's the ocean
Speaker 1: or the forestry or land use. So we have to
Speaker 1: make sure to do that in a smarter way than
Speaker 1: we're doing right now. I think thirty percent is a
Speaker 1: good start, but you know, I can only look at
Speaker 1: my own country. We have quite a lot of work
Speaker 1: to do to reach thirty percent, especially when it comes
Speaker 1: to forestry, and so I have a lot of work
Speaker 1: to do on that front, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: we have to make sure that each country actually reach
Speaker 1: the goals we set up as well. But there's been
Speaker 1: criticism that thirty by thirty isn't very well defined. Biodiversity
Speaker 1: is complicated. Species in different places require different ways to
Speaker 1: live and thrive. Another aspect which hasn't been reached, which
Speaker 1: is around what happens to the rest of the seventy percent.
Speaker 1: Would we start abusing that seventy percent even more than
Speaker 1: we are abusing now? And so how do you think
Speaker 1: about these difficult issues as we try and grapple with
Speaker 1: this crisis. Well, that's a very good question. I agree
Speaker 1: with the somewhat of the hints you're making in the question.
Speaker 1: We do have very different way of handling what thirty
Speaker 1: percent is in our different countries. I think Sweden as
Speaker 1: well as a good example of having very strict way
Speaker 1: of measuring and counting, and I see other countries that
Speaker 1: don't do it in the same way, which is a problem.
Speaker 1: And also the very very different natures that we have
Speaker 1: to deal with. I can only speak for my own country,
Speaker 1: which is the one I know by heart, and that
Speaker 1: we do have a long you know, tradition. It's almost
Speaker 1: culture for us to take care of our forests and
Speaker 1: take care of our sea, in our nature, and we
Speaker 1: have a lot of laws. For example, we have this
Speaker 1: al mansret then it's called which is it's very lovely.
Speaker 1: We learn it when we're kids that, for example, you
Speaker 1: can always walk through nature and forest, but you can't
Speaker 1: break the sticks and the ruin the nature, but you're
Speaker 1: allowed to pass through and you're allowed to put up
Speaker 1: a tempt for one twenty four hours. You know, we're
Speaker 1: brought up with this. We have a lot of nature.
Speaker 1: We live very close to it, even in the city,
Speaker 1: it's a thing to hike and so on. So we
Speaker 1: need to create a development where we take care of
Speaker 1: our biodiversity in a better way than what we're doing now.
Speaker 1: We do truly have a biodiversity a crisis when it
Speaker 1: comes to biodiversity loss, and I think if it's supposed
Speaker 1: to be a long term positive development, we have to
Speaker 1: do it side by side with society, with owners of forest,
Speaker 1: with fishers, with everyone who's will be interested in bettering
Speaker 1: the situation we have. So that's the way we need
Speaker 1: to work forward, and the legislation and the deals that
Speaker 1: we make need to have room for that for each
Speaker 1: country to develop in the most stable way that they can.
Speaker 1: But we have to do it quicker and a lot
Speaker 1: more than we're doing right now now. One thing you
Speaker 1: said was that when your leader chose you as the
Speaker 1: climate minister, you were surprised that this would be something
Speaker 1: you would take, But ten years on that's what you
Speaker 1: were preparing for. But in a way you've said that
Speaker 1: you've been preparing for politics for a very long time.
Speaker 1: You debate it with your father a lot. You studied
Speaker 1: political science. You then became the leader of the Liberal
Speaker 1: Youth Association, so Now that you were thrown into this
Speaker 1: job and it's been a hundred days, what were you
Speaker 1: expecting That hasn't turned out to be as you thought
Speaker 1: it would be. A lot of things have been surprising.
Speaker 1: I think the most surprising thing is how it is
Speaker 1: so difficult to get out the message of what we
Speaker 1: are doing, what we are changing, what are the positive aspects,
Speaker 1: And it's so easy to get the message out of
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, politics is breaking down the environmental work
Speaker 1: that needs to be done. You know, especially in Sweden,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what government, if you have social Democrats or liberals,
Speaker 1: they're going to take climate action, but they're going to
Speaker 1: do it in different ways. We do have very fundamental
Speaker 1: climate laws, environmental laws in Sweden. We had carbon taxation
Speaker 1: before I was born in nineteen ninety two, so you know,
Speaker 1: we're very developed country when it comes to these issues.
Speaker 1: And we look forward to using the EU presidency to
Speaker 1: take the work forward in the EU and to contribute
Speaker 1: during the COP meetings. And this is just a long
Speaker 1: tradition we have. So I've been quite surprised at having
Speaker 1: to defend my stance as a climate invested the politician.
Speaker 1: It was not what I expected but you know, as
Speaker 1: long as I know that I'm doing the work that
Speaker 1: is needed, as long as the ministry of lawyers and
Speaker 1: the people who are very familiar with the environmental legislation,
Speaker 1: as long as we are cooperating in a positive way.
Speaker 1: The media picture is something I will probably be able
Speaker 1: to handle in the upcoming years and make sure that
Speaker 1: they understand what we are doing. And you've got your
Speaker 1: dream job ten years early. If you were to take
Speaker 1: on a different ministry, which one would you choose? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm quite versatile. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: matters are important. No one is as urgent and important
Speaker 1: as this one's, but I think education policy, cultural policy,
Speaker 1: all of this matters are very important for a societal development.
Speaker 1: Just In the Arden, Prime Minister of New Zealand, who
Speaker 1: has made the leader at a very young age of
Speaker 1: thirty seven, has just resigned and her reason for resigning
Speaker 1: is that she does not have enough energy in the
Speaker 1: tank to keep going as a young person being put
Speaker 1: into a job that's going to be demanding. What are
Speaker 1: lessons that you learn from experiences of other young female
Speaker 1: leaders that you would like to apply. Well, I really
Speaker 1: do take care of that part of it. A lot
Speaker 1: of people are like, how are you not burned out?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm like the typical burnout example, the young
Speaker 1: woman in politics, writing a book, columnist, you know, doing
Speaker 1: all the things up once, doing a podcast, and I
Speaker 1: want to do a lot of things, and I'm very eager,
Speaker 1: but I'm very strict on my time with my friends,
Speaker 1: my time with my partner, you know, laying down on
Speaker 1: the sofa, not looking at my phone, and just you know,
Speaker 1: crochet knitting, reading and talking to my boyfriend about things
Speaker 1: that are not political. And these are very important for me.
Speaker 1: It's a way of recharging and I don't negotiate on that.
Speaker 1: It's very strict in my calendar. A lot of you know,
Speaker 1: the people who work with me know that. And if
Speaker 1: I say let's not do this meeting, it's not always
Speaker 1: you know, specifically as a woman, it's also a matter
Speaker 1: of which meetings I actually should take. Just because I'm
Speaker 1: a young female politician, it doesn't mean that I'm going
Speaker 1: to meet you know, the assistant advisor. You know, that's
Speaker 1: not how it works. So putting harsh limits and being
Speaker 1: clear on what you expect and how your days are looking,
Speaker 1: that's a way for me to handle the big amount
Speaker 1: of pressure and the extremely long hours and no weekends
Speaker 1: and things like this. I think Jacinda and a lot
Speaker 1: of other politicians are good examples of keeping your head
Speaker 1: high and not compromising with yourself. So she's done a
Speaker 1: very good job. I think she should be very proud
Speaker 1: of what she's done. Good inspiration. This was a great conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you for making the time. Of course, thank you.
Speaker 1: Given the makeup of the new government, I thought the
Speaker 1: Climate Minister would struggle to justify how Sweden will keep
Speaker 1: its big promises. I'm still not convinced that it can,
Speaker 1: but in Romina I found someone who seems determined to
Speaker 1: ensure that climate remains a priority despite a messy political environment.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Zero. If you like this episode,
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, send it to a friend,
Speaker 1: or complain to Ikea. Sorry Ikea. If you've got a
Speaker 1: suggestion for a guest or topic or something you just
Speaker 1: want us to look into, get in touch at Zero
Speaker 1: pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd
Speaker 1: and senior producer is Christine riscoll Our. Theme music is
Speaker 1: composed by Wonderley Special thanks to Nicholas Rolander and Kira Binzroom.
Speaker 1: I'm Ashati back next week.