1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Aukshatrati. This week Romina Greta and 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: the new politics of climate change. Sweden was the first 3 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: country to set a net zero by twenty forty five 4 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: target and wants to achieve net negative emissions after that. 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: Sounds great, but there's been political upheaval. The new coalition 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: government formed in October is reliant on support of a 7 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: far right party that thinks climate change is a myth. 8 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Member Austrainia comer al Quaman Temperata the broad Fish. That's 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Elsa Widding of the Sweden Democrats, who told Parliament in 10 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: her maiden speech that she didn't think there was clear 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: evidence of human caused climate change. A different government hasn't 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: just led to different rhetoric. Since the new coalition came 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: to power, the Climate and Environment Ministry has been folded 14 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: into the Business Ministry. Spending on nature, climate and the 15 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: environment has been cut for this year and will be 16 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: reduced by sixty percent by twenty twenty five. Despite this, 17 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: the new Prime Minister, Wolf Christersen has said that climate 18 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: is still one of his government's priorities, and he appointed 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: a new ambitious climate minister, Romina Poor Mactari at twenty 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: six years old, she became the country's youngest ever cabinet minister. 21 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Romina is a member of the Liberal Party and the 22 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: daughter of Iranians who fled the country during the nineteen 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: seventy nine revolution. She rarely gives interviews in English and 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: so at the World Economic Forum in Davos, I sat 25 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: down with her to find out how her first hundred 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: days in government have gone, her thoughts on working with 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: the far right party, how Sweden will meet its big 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: climate commitments, and what she hopes to achieve on climate 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: now that Sweden is chairing the European Council. Romina, welcome 30 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you so much. Now. You had 31 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: your own podcast before becoming climate minister. Do you miss it? 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: I miss it quite a lot. It's very valuable to 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: have these sit down conversations about politics. So wait to 34 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: be here. Nice to Nice to have you now. You 35 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: became Sweden's youngest minister at just twenty six. Were you 36 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: surprised to be made climate minister? Yes? Absolutely. I thought 37 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: my party leader was crazy when he asked me, and 38 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: I told them this is my dream job in ten years, 39 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: and he said, well, we don't have ten years. And 40 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: that's kind of a good point. So it's just to 41 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: roll up the sleeves and get the work done. So 42 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: if you had to pick a ministry that you could 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: become minister off, you would pick climate, absolutely I would. 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: Why is that? Well? I run for parliament on climate 45 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: matters and I believe that there's somewhat of a development 46 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: where we're trying to create political conflict when it comes 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: to climate, and I'm very against that. It's not a 48 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: matter of whether you like wind power or nuclear power, 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: or whether you like deforestation or first use. Is a 50 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: matter of doing things in a correct, intelligent smart way, 51 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: making full use of all the science that exists on 52 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: these areas, and I believe that politicians have some potential 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: of doing those parts better. So that was what I 54 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 1: ran for parliament on and got elected on by a 55 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: lot of youth in Sweden. So yeah, I'm really looking 56 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: forward to actually making action out of those ideas. Now 57 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners are spread around the globe. 58 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: When they think about a young climate leader in Sweden, 59 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: they probably think about Greta Thinburg. But you are Sweden's 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: climate minister. What do you think about Greta's approach to 61 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: climate change. You know, I think it's understandable that my generation, 62 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: parts of my generation have lost confidence in politics as 63 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: the method of lowering our missions and reaching actual climate action. 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: And I believe that it's somewhat understandable. But from my 65 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: point of view, I want to be where the decisions 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: are being made, and I know that even though politics 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: is quite complicated and slow, that's where the change is 68 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: actually being made. So if you want things to truly happen, 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: of course it's good to have a lot of demonstrations. 70 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: For example, in Glasgow there was a lot of demonstration 71 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: and that was a good pressuring point for the meeting. 72 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: But the actual decisions are being made in the room. 73 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: So that's the way that I make the change that 74 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: I want to see in the society. And as Minister, 75 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: of course, you've got to be in those rooms. So 76 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: you were at COP twenty seven in Egypt, you went 77 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: to COP fifteen in Montreal. Let's just understand what you 78 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: found to be different when you went to COP twenty seven. 79 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: At COP twenty six, there were lots of protests had 80 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: happened in Glasgow, an open democratic country. Cup twenty seven 81 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: happened in Egypt, oppressive regime where the outcomes were interesting too. 82 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: How was the experience for you, Well, I think we 83 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: all learned some you know, lessons on what became better 84 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: until next time. And I think that concerns not only us, 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: like Sweden and the EU, but many parts like We 86 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: did have some progress. It was not a step back, 87 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: which I was worried about going there. There has been progress, 88 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: but of course not enough, and the urgency that is 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: dominating the work that needs to be done is not 90 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: reflected in the results, so obviously it's not good enough. 91 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, civil society, of course, plays 92 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: a big role in that. The first thing I did 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: when I got to COP twenty seven was to have 94 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: a meeting with civil rights defender and activist in Egypt. 95 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: And I think it's very important for the democratic countries 96 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: of the world to show that there is an important 97 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: aspect of how we work politically. But I also believe 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: it's a matter of you know, understanding each other. After 99 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: the pandemic and with the situation we have in the world, 100 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: with Russia's aggressive war against Ukraine and economic situation that 101 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: is developing, there's a lot of tension in the world, 102 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: and of course that is also reflected in U negotiations. 103 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: Now beyond the lack of activism in Egypt, the European Union, 104 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: Sweden being part of it, wanted language on fossil fuel 105 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: phase out all fossil fuels, oil, gas and coal, and 106 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: that did not come through in the end. We understand 107 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and China were resistant and 108 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: made sure that it didn't get through. We're going to 109 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: head into the UA at COP twenty eight, which is 110 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: another fossil fuel country, and the president of COP twenty 111 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: eight is the head of the state oil company. How 112 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: do you think conversations will go there, Will it be 113 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 1: an inclusive process and produce a fair outcome for climate 114 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: vulnerable countries? Well, I think it's very important to reflect on, 115 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: especially being here in the BOSS, what future are we 116 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: headed towards? And when you look at any economic report, 117 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: of course you can collect the breadcrumbs of the fossil 118 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: dependent economy, but you're gonna lose on not investing in 119 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: the future that we headed towards. Leading the copy meetings 120 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: is truly an opportunity to show how you can be 121 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: the honest broker and bring work forward. And if there's 122 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: a meeting where you can sense that that is not 123 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: what's being done. I think the UAE are the ones 124 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: who are going to lose on it internationally, reputation wise, 125 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: prestige wise. You'd want to have a successful meeting and 126 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: we will not be impressed by the what do you 127 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: call it? Would call it like curtain shows in Swedish. 128 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the English word, but you know, 129 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: the charade, it's not good enough. It has to be 130 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: done for real, and I hope that the UAE, as 131 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: an entrepreneurial country wanting to keep their economy strong, will 132 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: have that in aspect when they take on the meeting. 133 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: And you know, some people tend to call me a 134 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: bit of naive, but I haven't lost hope. When I've 135 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: met with the ministers of UAE and discussed upcoming cop meetings, 136 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: I see that they want to have a successful meeting. 137 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: So let's hope that they succeed and they do everything 138 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: we can to contribute. When you were Main Minister, the 139 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: government abolished the Environment Ministry and created a Climate and 140 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: Business Ministry instead. Now, climate is an issue that affects 141 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: lots and lots of parts of the economy, and so 142 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: it makes sense that you have something that would enable 143 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: the government to think more holistically, but it's also a 144 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: specialized issue. And so how is it that having a 145 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: ministry that is focused on climate and business is better 146 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: than having a ministry that is focused on environment and climate. Well, 147 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, my government wants to gather these issues because 148 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: it's cross sectoral issues, and we neither have the time 149 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: nor the money to keep pulling in different directions, which 150 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: is what we have seen for the last years. We've 151 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: seen a lot of situations where companies, industries who are 152 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: actually working towards creating philosophic goods have had a lot 153 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: of difficulties with environmental permits and other things. So we've 154 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: had situations that have been politically tense where we see 155 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: that we are wasting both time and money by pulling 156 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: in different directions. So we want to tackle these issues 157 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: in a different way. And I think that there's a 158 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: big misconception on what climate transition is and actually also 159 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: creating a sustainable environment, taking care of our biodiversity laws 160 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: and prohibiting that. There's this kind of view on trying 161 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: to suffocate the economic growth, and you know, having industries 162 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: that are swarmed with legislation and environmental laws and taxes. 163 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: It's rather ongoing change to our society. It's rather something 164 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: like the industrialization or the digitalization. It's an ongoing development 165 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: happening to our society that we need to do quicker 166 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: than we're doing, and we need to do it smarter 167 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: than we're doing. And Sweden is an extremely export dependent country, 168 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: quite a small country, and we don't want our economy 169 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: to get worse. Of course, we want to build on 170 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: the future that we're headed towards, which is a sustainable economy. 171 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: So we want to invest in that heavily by promoting 172 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: in our industries and businesses to actually take climate action 173 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: for real and create the fossil free goods that the 174 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: world is actually demanding as well. So we see the 175 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: big demand for the climate neutral development in the business sector, 176 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: and we want to meet that from the political side, 177 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: from policy side, you gathering these issues. There have been 178 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: some reports that there will be a reduction in climate 179 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: and environment funding in Sweden by as much as sixty percent. 180 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: Is that right, No, it's not. When it comes to 181 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: funding and aid we actually we've made some priorities when 182 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: it comes to international aids. So for example, we're doubling 183 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: our climate aid, and we're doubling the money that we 184 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: give to the Global Environmental Fund, and we're trying to 185 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: initiate a change. But also a big part of the 186 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: work that swedened us for climate transition is by exporting 187 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: are not only like fossil free goods that we have, 188 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: but also our innovation. And we really think that that 189 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: is a key in not only lowering our our own 190 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: consumption and emissions, but lowering our consumption based emissions abroad. 191 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: So it's not only a matter of Sweden coming out 192 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: at top and reaching our goal of net zero emissions 193 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: in twenty forty five, it's also a matter of creating 194 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: a positive impact in the world. And just in terms 195 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: of sums, when you say doubling towards the Global Environment 196 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: Fund and doubling towards the Climate Fund, how much money 197 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: are we talking? Oh gosh, that's a good question. I 198 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: have it somewhere. We fact check this with the ministry 199 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: later and found that Sweden is doubling its contribution to 200 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: the Global Environment Facility. However, the new government's budget presented 201 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: in October shows that the country's overall spending on environment, 202 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: climate and nature is due to decline by sixty percent 203 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: by twenty twenty five. Half of the reduction is due 204 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 1: to the scrapping of a low emissions vehicle subsidy, which 205 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: will end in twenty twenty four. There have also been 206 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: cuts made to the Swedish Environmental Protection Agency and conservation spending, 207 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: among other reductions. Onto politics, the government that is in 208 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: power takes support from Sweden Democrats because without them there 209 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: is no majority. How do you justify taking support from 210 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: a very right wing party whose members, some of them 211 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: believe that climate change is a myth. Well, we had 212 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: a really long discussion in my party. We have a 213 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: high ceiling when it comes to opinions, and we had 214 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: a big discussion where I was actually against cooperating with 215 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: the Sweden Democrats and we have had discussions on whether 216 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: we should stay in opposition for more years. But we 217 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: had eight years of red, Green and red government. They 218 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: lost their power a few times because they didn't have 219 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: a majority in the parliament. You know, just a situation 220 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: in Swedish politics that was not a good development, where 221 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: we saw segregation growing, criminality growing, gang members and gang 222 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: violence is a very big issue in Sweden, and we 223 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: saw this development happening while we saw that we didn't 224 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: have the numbers government and the possibility that my party 225 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: decided to grasp onto is agreeing with the Sweden Democrats 226 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: on specific issues. So the issues are it's about economy, 227 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: it's about migration, it's about energy systems and things like these, 228 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: but not matters that are value oriented. So if we'd 229 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: see that I'm not able, for example, as the Minister 230 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: of Climate and Environment to create the change that I 231 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: want to see, I would leave the government and my 232 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 1: party would leave the government. And this is what we 233 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: ran for parliament with as a concept. You know, vote 234 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: for us, for the liberal guarantees and the liberalism in 235 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: this government. That is government with moderates, Christian Democrats and 236 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: liberals that takes lean on the Sweden Democrats. And of 237 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: course this is also the situation for Sweden Democrats because 238 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: it's not uncontroversial for them to cooperate with having, you know, 239 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: put a liberal, young female minister as Climate Environment. I'm 240 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: guessing a few of their voters are not too happy 241 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: about that. It's yet to see if we'll succeed, but 242 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: as of now, I do see that we are all 243 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: respecting the deal that we made and the matters that 244 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 1: we need to take care of. But of course we 245 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: are different parties and you should not vote for me 246 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: if you agree with the values that they have. Democracies 247 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: are messy. Yeah, they are promises, absolutely, and I think 248 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: Sweden hasn't had that for quite some time. It's a 249 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: bit of a new development where we have split in 250 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: the voting that we haven't seen before. So we're trying 251 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: to handle it in the best way we can. After 252 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: the break, I ask Romina about Sweden's plan to build 253 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: new nuclear power plants and with the resignation of New 254 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: Zealand Prime Minister Justinda Arden, how she deals with burnout. Now, 255 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: Sweden is among the few countries in Europe that has 256 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: a large dependence on nuclear when it comes to clean energy, 257 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: and you are planning to build more nuclear power plants 258 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: or one do at least. Is there political support for 259 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: nuclear power in Sweden? Yes, there is and it's growing. 260 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is if you look at the reports, 261 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: the support for nuclear power is the absolutely biggest in 262 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: the municipalities that have nuclear power plants, so that's where 263 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: people are most positive towards it. And are you taking 264 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: the message that nuclear can be a climate solution abroad, 265 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: because it's still a controversial issue in many, many parts 266 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah, and it's not weird that it 267 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: is a controversial issue. I think that there's a lot 268 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: of worries and misconceptions about how nuclear power works and 269 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: the development that has been made, not least in Europe, 270 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: where we've invested so many billions of euros to create 271 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: scientific development and how we use these techniques to get 272 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: the energy. But the development that we're seeing with for example, 273 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: small modular reactors that can stabilize our energy system and 274 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: also you know, nuclear power being planable, so you know 275 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: when you get the power, which is very important for 276 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: our industries to be able to actually bet and take 277 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: the risks on electrifying their industries. But you know, it's 278 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,239 Speaker 1: not a matter of whether I, as a politician prioritize 279 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: nuclear or wind power, because I'm looking at those things 280 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: as well. We have a lot of offshore wind power 281 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: coming up and we're looking at how we can create 282 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: the optimized conditions for that. So you know, we're trying 283 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: to create a robust energy system in Sweden because we 284 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: have not had that, and the whole of Europe have 285 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: learned the lesson in the hard way with Russia during 286 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: the war using their gas as a war mechanism and 287 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: pressure in European countries. So we have learned the harsh 288 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: way that we truly have to switch towards fossil free 289 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: and I think that nuclear power has a part to 290 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: play in that. Now beyond nuclear but sticking to security, 291 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: you've said climate is not just about taxes and regulations, 292 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: but their climate issues are also a security policy issue. 293 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: How do you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine has 294 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: changed energy security conversations in Sweden and what are you 295 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: doing as a result. Well, I think not least, we 296 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: have learned a lot about how our energy systems work. 297 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: We have a lot of hydropower in Sweden and that's 298 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: a possibility to store the electricity as well, so it's 299 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: been very beneficial and I think in Sweden we've felt 300 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: quite comfortable with the situation we have regarding energy. We 301 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: also export a lot of energy, which makes people think that, oh, okay, 302 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: we're good, but it's a matter of stabilizing our system 303 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: and having the power when we need it, and there 304 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: we have some issues. We don't import a lot of 305 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: Russian gas. We tend to stick to our hydropower, nuclear 306 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: power and wind power, and then we complement with solar 307 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: power and we have thermal heating and you know, different methods. 308 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: But as we in Europe share our energy system and 309 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: export an import a lot, we have to consider and 310 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: take care, so we're also affected. But I think it's 311 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: mostly about knowledge and learning. Also, you know, energy efficiency, 312 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: using our energy in a smarter way, which is very 313 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: important because in Sweden we see from the government side, 314 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: we see a prognosis of doubling more than doubling actually 315 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: our energy use or electricity use actually until twenty forty five, 316 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: so we have to make a big development in the 317 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: energy sector and hopefully this situation where the war can 318 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: speed up this transition. Now Sweden has taken on the 319 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: presidency of the European Council for the first six months 320 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: of this year. How do Sweden's climate goals your policies 321 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: fit into what the European Union is doing and what 322 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: do you want to see during this presidency? What will 323 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: you be able to influence the European Union. You know, 324 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: me as a liberal pro European, I'm a big fan 325 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: of the European Union and my party was very engaged 326 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: in getting me Sweden into the Union. So I'm very 327 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: excited about the presidency and I'm truly looking forward to 328 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: being able to bring the work forward. When it comes 329 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: to climate action, well, European Union is the biggest and 330 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: the most successful climate organization or environmental organization that there is. 331 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: There is no other comparison of a organization or a 332 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: union where you create so many legislative acts and laws 333 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: and incentives that are bringing forward this development, and the 334 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: speed it is going at is very impressive. You know, 335 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: we have a lot of work to do. We have 336 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: the goals, we're trying to work towards them all of 337 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: our countries and we're not all there yet. But I 338 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: think the view of it being we are going to 339 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: reach net zero, that is the exactly correct way of 340 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: tackling our emissions. And the European Union, of course, we 341 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: have the Fit for fifty five package, we have the 342 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: Green Deal and a lot of different parts of that 343 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: which is being finalized. But of course I look forward 344 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: to working on the Industrial Emissions Directive, the Nature Restoration Law, 345 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: and in Sweden we have a lot of consensus when 346 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: it comes to EU matters because we want to take 347 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: care of the view of Sweden in the EU. We 348 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: have a strong stance. We get a lot of possibilities 349 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: to affect the EU through our strong stance, so we 350 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: all take care of it together. Now we've talked a 351 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: lot about cutting emissions and all the energy changes that 352 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: have to be made, but climate impacts are growing. I 353 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: wanted you to bring up a comparison here, which is 354 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: that your parents had to leave it run due to, 355 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: in your words, their freedoms being taken away. It was 356 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: a political revolution and they had to flee. Climate impacts 357 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: are growing, and so are the number of climate refugees. 358 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: Do you think Sweden should do more to welcome climate refugees? Well, 359 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: I think that Sweden should keep being a big part 360 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: of an open world and we try to do that 361 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: best as we can. From twenty fifteen, we had all 362 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: of the political leaders in Sweden talking about Sweden's not 363 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: building any walls and we are the open, welcoming society, 364 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: and then we had an enormous backlash. And this is 365 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: foremost regarding the unemployment, segregation, schools not having places for 366 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: all the kids. Our society was not able to hold 367 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: the standard that people expect in Sweden, and I think 368 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: that that is a failure from the political side. We 369 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: have to, you know, have a dynamic society, dynamic politics 370 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: that adapt towards the society we live in, and that is, 371 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: in my stance as a liberal, a society that can 372 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: be open and welcome people, which we don't have right now. 373 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: So there has to be one or another. You either 374 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: close the borders and you know, you're happy with the 375 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: systems you have, or you try to create systems that 376 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: are allowing and you know, giving the circumstances for a 377 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: bigger migration. And of course I work towards the latter. 378 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: But in Sweden we have a big consensus majority where 379 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: people want to have a migration that is possible for 380 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: us to handle. When it comes to migration authorities, you know, 381 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: it takes like three years to get your permit and 382 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: things like these, so we're trying to catch up. But 383 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm working towards us catching up as quick as we 384 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: can to be able to welcome more people into an 385 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: open society. Now. In twenty nineteen, you gave an interview 386 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: where you said your role model is Alexandria Occasio Cortez. 387 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: Of course, AOC represents the left wing of the Democrats 388 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: in the US. You are a liberal conservative. You believe 389 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: in free markets. You know I'm a liberal. I'm not 390 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: conservative at all. We're believing in free markets and you 391 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: believe in capitalism as a way to solve climate crisis. 392 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: Why is she a role model? Well, in this interview, 393 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: I said she is my role model in not her opinions, 394 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: but how she does things. I think that she's a 395 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: prime example of a political leader that is, you know, 396 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: in touch with you know, the ground, with her voters. 397 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: She knows what she's doing where she comes from, and 398 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: she brings that with her in in what she does, 399 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: and I think that's quite inspiring. I think that's a 400 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: type of politician that I haven't seen for quite some 401 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: time and I've missed, and I aim to be that myself. 402 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: I tried to stay grounded and keep a lot of 403 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: contact with people who vote for me and what their 404 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: perspectives are. And you know, in creating that trust, I'm 405 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: able to get more things done and have more flexibility 406 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: because I know that my vote is trust me that 407 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: I make the correct decisions. And you know, the media 408 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: can write controversial headlines, but my vote is now that 409 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: I know Romina, I know what she's doing, that's probably 410 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: not the whole story, and that is a way of 411 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: actually being like a good politician. I think also uses 412 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: social media very well, especially Instagram. She reaches out and 413 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: she is open about her views and talks to her audience. 414 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: How about you do you use social media for that 415 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: kind of outreach. I used social media a lot. I 416 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, grew a follower base on Twitter and was 417 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: that was kind of how I made a name for 418 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: myself in politics. That was probably why I was offer 419 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: the opportunity to be a columnist and a newspaper and 420 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: things like this. But actually I've become somewhat of negative 421 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: more social media. There's just too much hate and misunderstanding 422 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: because you want to misunderstand. There's not that much of okay, 423 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to learn something here and understand where you're 424 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: coming from and actually trying to meet each other. There's 425 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: more of the you know, shattering and hopefully I can 426 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: contribute to a better climate on social media. But right 427 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: now I'm focused on getting my environmental policies in place. 428 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: You know, I've been a minister for Soon it will 429 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: be one hundred days since the government gone place and 430 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: that's where my focus is. But hopefully I'll be able 431 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: to do a comeback on social media quite soon and 432 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: tell people what I'm doing and try to create a 433 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: positive environment that is not spreading hate and the situation 434 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: that I don't want to contribute to. You were at 435 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: COP fifteen in Montreal. This is a cop that is 436 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: different from TOP twenty seven because this corp discusses biodiversity 437 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: and nature. The crisis around biodiversity is not talked about 438 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: as much as climate change, but if anything, it's probably 439 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: going to have bigger impacts if we don't address it. 440 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: And we've got a deal, and the deal is around 441 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: protecting thirty percent of land and ocean by twenty thirty, 442 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: do you think that's enough. I think it's a good start. 443 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: I see a lot of countries that have very different 444 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: possibilities to do that. My country, for example, Sweden, we 445 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: have a lot of forest and we have a lot 446 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: of private owners of forest who use it in a 447 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: traditional way and they want to take care of their forest. 448 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: They know that they won't be able to make any 449 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,239 Speaker 1: profits if they don't take care of their forest as 450 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: well as the fisheries. You know, if you don't have 451 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: any fish to fish, You're not going to have any 452 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: money either, So there's there has to be a way 453 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: of reaching consensus and having more dialogue when it comes 454 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: to the use of our nature, whether it's the ocean 455 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: or the forestry or land use. So we have to 456 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: make sure to do that in a smarter way than 457 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: we're doing right now. I think thirty percent is a 458 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: good start, but you know, I can only look at 459 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: my own country. We have quite a lot of work 460 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: to do to reach thirty percent, especially when it comes 461 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: to forestry, and so I have a lot of work 462 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: to do on that front, and I think, you know, 463 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: we have to make sure that each country actually reach 464 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: the goals we set up as well. But there's been 465 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: criticism that thirty by thirty isn't very well defined. Biodiversity 466 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: is complicated. Species in different places require different ways to 467 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: live and thrive. Another aspect which hasn't been reached, which 468 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: is around what happens to the rest of the seventy percent. 469 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: Would we start abusing that seventy percent even more than 470 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: we are abusing now? And so how do you think 471 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: about these difficult issues as we try and grapple with 472 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: this crisis. Well, that's a very good question. I agree 473 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: with the somewhat of the hints you're making in the question. 474 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: We do have very different way of handling what thirty 475 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 1: percent is in our different countries. I think Sweden as 476 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: well as a good example of having very strict way 477 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: of measuring and counting, and I see other countries that 478 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: don't do it in the same way, which is a problem. 479 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: And also the very very different natures that we have 480 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: to deal with. I can only speak for my own country, 481 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: which is the one I know by heart, and that 482 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: we do have a long you know, tradition. It's almost 483 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: culture for us to take care of our forests and 484 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: take care of our sea, in our nature, and we 485 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: have a lot of laws. For example, we have this 486 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: al mansret then it's called which is it's very lovely. 487 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: We learn it when we're kids that, for example, you 488 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: can always walk through nature and forest, but you can't 489 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: break the sticks and the ruin the nature, but you're 490 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: allowed to pass through and you're allowed to put up 491 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: a tempt for one twenty four hours. You know, we're 492 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: brought up with this. We have a lot of nature. 493 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: We live very close to it, even in the city, 494 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: it's a thing to hike and so on. So we 495 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: need to create a development where we take care of 496 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: our biodiversity in a better way than what we're doing now. 497 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: We do truly have a biodiversity a crisis when it 498 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: comes to biodiversity loss, and I think if it's supposed 499 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: to be a long term positive development, we have to 500 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: do it side by side with society, with owners of forest, 501 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: with fishers, with everyone who's will be interested in bettering 502 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: the situation we have. So that's the way we need 503 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: to work forward, and the legislation and the deals that 504 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: we make need to have room for that for each 505 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: country to develop in the most stable way that they can. 506 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: But we have to do it quicker and a lot 507 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: more than we're doing right now now. One thing you 508 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: said was that when your leader chose you as the 509 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: climate minister, you were surprised that this would be something 510 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: you would take, But ten years on that's what you 511 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: were preparing for. But in a way you've said that 512 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: you've been preparing for politics for a very long time. 513 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: You debate it with your father a lot. You studied 514 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: political science. You then became the leader of the Liberal 515 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: Youth Association, so Now that you were thrown into this 516 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: job and it's been a hundred days, what were you 517 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: expecting That hasn't turned out to be as you thought 518 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: it would be. A lot of things have been surprising. 519 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: I think the most surprising thing is how it is 520 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: so difficult to get out the message of what we 521 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: are doing, what we are changing, what are the positive aspects, 522 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: And it's so easy to get the message out of 523 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, politics is breaking down the environmental work 524 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: that needs to be done. You know, especially in Sweden, 525 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what government, if you have social Democrats or liberals, 526 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: they're going to take climate action, but they're going to 527 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: do it in different ways. We do have very fundamental 528 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: climate laws, environmental laws in Sweden. We had carbon taxation 529 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: before I was born in nineteen ninety two, so you know, 530 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: we're very developed country when it comes to these issues. 531 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: And we look forward to using the EU presidency to 532 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: take the work forward in the EU and to contribute 533 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: during the COP meetings. And this is just a long 534 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: tradition we have. So I've been quite surprised at having 535 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: to defend my stance as a climate invested the politician. 536 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: It was not what I expected but you know, as 537 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: long as I know that I'm doing the work that 538 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: is needed, as long as the ministry of lawyers and 539 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: the people who are very familiar with the environmental legislation, 540 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: as long as we are cooperating in a positive way. 541 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: The media picture is something I will probably be able 542 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: to handle in the upcoming years and make sure that 543 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: they understand what we are doing. And you've got your 544 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: dream job ten years early. If you were to take 545 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: on a different ministry, which one would you choose? I 546 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm quite versatile. I think a lot of 547 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: matters are important. No one is as urgent and important 548 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: as this one's, but I think education policy, cultural policy, 549 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: all of this matters are very important for a societal development. 550 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: Just In the Arden, Prime Minister of New Zealand, who 551 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: has made the leader at a very young age of 552 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: thirty seven, has just resigned and her reason for resigning 553 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: is that she does not have enough energy in the 554 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: tank to keep going as a young person being put 555 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: into a job that's going to be demanding. What are 556 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: lessons that you learn from experiences of other young female 557 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: leaders that you would like to apply. Well, I really 558 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: do take care of that part of it. A lot 559 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: of people are like, how are you not burned out? 560 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: You know, I'm like the typical burnout example, the young 561 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: woman in politics, writing a book, columnist, you know, doing 562 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: all the things up once, doing a podcast, and I 563 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: want to do a lot of things, and I'm very eager, 564 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: but I'm very strict on my time with my friends, 565 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: my time with my partner, you know, laying down on 566 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: the sofa, not looking at my phone, and just you know, 567 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: crochet knitting, reading and talking to my boyfriend about things 568 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: that are not political. And these are very important for me. 569 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: It's a way of recharging and I don't negotiate on that. 570 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: It's very strict in my calendar. A lot of you know, 571 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: the people who work with me know that. And if 572 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: I say let's not do this meeting, it's not always 573 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: you know, specifically as a woman, it's also a matter 574 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: of which meetings I actually should take. Just because I'm 575 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: a young female politician, it doesn't mean that I'm going 576 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: to meet you know, the assistant advisor. You know, that's 577 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: not how it works. So putting harsh limits and being 578 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: clear on what you expect and how your days are looking, 579 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: that's a way for me to handle the big amount 580 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: of pressure and the extremely long hours and no weekends 581 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 1: and things like this. I think Jacinda and a lot 582 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: of other politicians are good examples of keeping your head 583 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: high and not compromising with yourself. So she's done a 584 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: very good job. I think she should be very proud 585 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: of what she's done. Good inspiration. This was a great conversation. 586 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for making the time. Of course, thank you. 587 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: Given the makeup of the new government, I thought the 588 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: Climate Minister would struggle to justify how Sweden will keep 589 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: its big promises. I'm still not convinced that it can, 590 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: but in Romina I found someone who seems determined to 591 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: ensure that climate remains a priority despite a messy political environment. 592 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Zero. If you like this episode, 593 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 594 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, send it to a friend, 595 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: or complain to Ikea. Sorry Ikea. If you've got a 596 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: suggestion for a guest or topic or something you just 597 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: want us to look into, get in touch at Zero 598 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd 599 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: and senior producer is Christine riscoll Our. Theme music is 600 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderley Special thanks to Nicholas Rolander and Kira Binzroom. 601 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm Ashati back next week.