WEBVTT - The Party of Ideas 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:26.396 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:29.436 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:29.836 --> 0:00:39.196 I'm Noah Feldman. What has happened to the American Right? 0:00:40.076 --> 0:00:43.676 That's our topic today. How did a party that touted 0:00:43.676 --> 0:00:46.476 itself as the party of ideas turn into the Party 0:00:46.516 --> 0:00:51.156 of Donald Trump? And what are conservative intellectuals thinking about it? 0:00:52.196 --> 0:00:55.036 To discuss that on this week's show, we're joined by 0:00:55.236 --> 0:00:59.676 Peter Wayner. Peter is my favorite conservative intellectual of the moment. 0:01:00.156 --> 0:01:02.716 He's a senior failure with the Ethics and Public Policy Center, 0:01:02.996 --> 0:01:05.676 and he's a contributing opinion writer for The New York 0:01:05.716 --> 0:01:09.476 Times and a contributing editor to The Atlantic Magazine. He 0:01:09.556 --> 0:01:12.516 worked for the Reagan administration, the George H. W. Bush administration, 0:01:12.716 --> 0:01:14.876 and I first met him when he was working for 0:01:14.996 --> 0:01:19.116 George W. Bush, first as a speechwriter and then as 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:22.116 the head of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Boy, we 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:24.956 haven't seen each other in along I literally think I 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:27.556 last saw you in the basement conference room at in 0:01:27.556 --> 0:01:31.076 the West Wing during the Bush administration, right back in 0:01:31.116 --> 0:01:34.436 the good old days. Depending on how you think of it, yeah, well, 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:38.316 compared to Trump, I'd say Pete. I want to start 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:42.356 by registering a kind of frustration. Often when people ask 0:01:42.436 --> 0:01:46.276 me who are the leading evangelical Republican intellectuals in the 0:01:46.396 --> 0:01:49.636 United States, I start by saying, Pete Wayner. You got 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.636 to read Pete Wayner, But in the last six months alone, 0:01:53.276 --> 0:01:57.556 you've written pieces talking about how the terminology of evangelical 0:01:57.636 --> 0:02:01.116 Christianity is no longer the right fit for you, and 0:02:01.276 --> 0:02:04.596 even that membership in the Republican Party may not be 0:02:04.876 --> 0:02:07.836 exactly the place where you belong. So you're robbing me 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:11.196 of my lead intellectual and within those categories they'll still 0:02:11.236 --> 0:02:13.436 be in my leading intellectual but in other some other categories. 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:16.396 So would you talk a little bit about your own transitions? 0:02:16.436 --> 0:02:20.516 And in both of these spaces with respect to terminology, 0:02:20.556 --> 0:02:22.956 I have the feeling more than content. Two are now 0:02:23.036 --> 0:02:24.876 happy to do it, because the first thing I'd say 0:02:24.956 --> 0:02:28.596 is I'm still conservative, though I don't consider myself a Republican, 0:02:28.636 --> 0:02:31.076 which we'll get into. And I still consider myself a Christian, 0:02:31.156 --> 0:02:36.996 though I've detached myself from the term evangelical. Let's take 0:02:37.036 --> 0:02:41.796 the last one first. I mean the evangelical Christian movements, 0:02:41.796 --> 0:02:44.836 the one that I've been most a part of For 0:02:44.836 --> 0:02:47.156 for most of my adult life, I didn't grow up 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:50.116 a Christian and a high school began a pilgrimage that 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:53.756 brought me to the Christian faith. I was evangelical churches 0:02:54.556 --> 0:02:56.636 that for the most part I have been a part 0:02:56.636 --> 0:03:00.716 of and identified more or less theologically. With the reason 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:06.516 that I no longer consider myself evangelical is primarily because 0:03:06.516 --> 0:03:10.596 of what's happened in the political arena. I think that 0:03:10.676 --> 0:03:15.596 the term evangelical these days is identified by most people 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:19.156 understandably so as a political term, not really as a 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:26.756 theological term. Most white evangelicals overwhelmingly support Donald Trump. But 0:03:26.796 --> 0:03:30.556 not only that many of them, not all, because it's 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:33.476 a large movements, about fifteen percent of the population, and 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:35.676 there are a lot of people on that spectrum, but 0:03:35.796 --> 0:03:38.436 a lot of white evangelicals are not only supportive of 0:03:38.436 --> 0:03:43.276 Donald Trump, but enthusiastic, and they are essentially they've become 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:47.916 his sword in his shield. The white evangelical leadership, whether 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:51.196 you're talking about people like Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffries, Jerry 0:03:51.196 --> 0:03:55.996 Fallwell Junior, Mike Huckabee, and so forth, they are of 0:03:57.116 --> 0:04:02.436 enthusiastic Trump supporters, obsequious in many cases rhapsodic about him, 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:06.116 unwilling to challenge him, unwilling to stand up to his 0:04:06.396 --> 0:04:09.516 ethical and moral transgressions, and unwilling to speak truth to power. 0:04:09.596 --> 0:04:12.796 And that really bothers me. I think that that those 0:04:12.836 --> 0:04:16.156 people are doing more to harm the Christian witness than 0:04:16.236 --> 0:04:20.676 the so called new atheists ever have. Notwithstanding the complete 0:04:20.716 --> 0:04:23.356 accuracy of everything you've said, why didn't you think it 0:04:23.396 --> 0:04:25.156 was worth it just to sort of stand your ground 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:29.916 and say, look, let's treat evangelicalism as about the Gospel 0:04:30.556 --> 0:04:34.436 the way it traditionally was, and not move away from 0:04:34.476 --> 0:04:38.116 the term by virtue of its contemporary politics. I mean, 0:04:38.316 --> 0:04:42.276 for myself, I remember when I identified as a modern 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:45.876 Orthodox Jew. I was always troubled by the concrete politics 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:48.356 of many of the people who shared that position. But 0:04:48.396 --> 0:04:50.796 I thought, to myself, least at the time, I'm so 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:53.516 committed to this way of life. I'm so committed to 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:56.636 these religious traditions and values that I don't want to 0:04:56.716 --> 0:05:00.556 let them monopolize the term. Now. To be fair, I 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:03.196 also myself moved away from that terminology. So I know 0:05:03.476 --> 0:05:06.236 where you're coming from. But I'm wondering, why not stand 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:10.116 up for the evangelicalism yeah, dry, good question. It's very 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:12.956 well phrased, and I must say that I've several friends 0:05:12.956 --> 0:05:15.716 of mine who have exactly that that point of view, 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:19.076 I guess I I'd say several things about it. One is, 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:23.756 if you find yourself saying I'm a Republican bot or 0:05:23.796 --> 0:05:28.436 I'm an evangelical bot, and most of your your statement 0:05:28.956 --> 0:05:32.356 is the qualification of the term or the allegiance, then 0:05:32.396 --> 0:05:34.756 that's worth thinking about. That's a very good insight, by 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:36.636 the way, in almost any area of life. Yeah. The 0:05:36.676 --> 0:05:39.796 second thing is, I mean, I'm not wed to this, 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:43.796 I guess personal divorce with the term evangelical. If things change, 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.436 I'm more than happy to come back. So it's it's 0:05:47.436 --> 0:05:50.996 not as if this is something which is necessarily permanent 0:05:50.996 --> 0:05:52.396 by any because, as you say, it's not that your 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.556 Christian witness has changed in any respect. No, it's not. 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:57.956 And it's the same thing for the Republican Party. If 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:00.076 the Republican Party comes back to what I think is 0:06:00.116 --> 0:06:03.116 it's it's best self and it's truest roots, you know, 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:07.476 then I would of course be associated with it as well. 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:09.996 The other thing is I just should say that because 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:12.596 I didn't grow up in a Christian Church. I never 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:18.036 identified all that much with denominations, and I'm a person 0:06:18.196 --> 0:06:22.396 who has had questions and kind of zigs and zags 0:06:22.396 --> 0:06:26.796 and his faith. It's it's not always been an easy 0:06:26.836 --> 0:06:30.156 path for me in the sense that that's just my 0:06:29.836 --> 0:06:34.516 my outlook and temperament on life. I'm often examining things 0:06:34.556 --> 0:06:37.836 and rethinking and so forth. That's a good description for 0:06:37.876 --> 0:06:42.276 an intellectual. It's a more difficult description for a faith journey. Yeah, 0:06:42.316 --> 0:06:44.756 you know it is. And I'm certainly within the four 0:06:44.796 --> 0:06:46.796 corners of the faith without without a question. In some ways, 0:06:46.836 --> 0:06:48.596 I'd say my faith is deeper now than it was 0:06:48.716 --> 0:06:51.396 even ten or fifteen years ago. I think I've just 0:06:51.476 --> 0:06:55.436 been less attached to Evangelical Christianity than maybe some other 0:06:55.476 --> 0:07:00.396 people have. But there's no question that the reason that 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:03.556 I moved away from it was this Trump moment, and 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:06.636 because of what I think is the discrediting of Evangelical 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:09.356 Christianity by a lot of white Evangelicals. Again with a 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:13.156 qualifier and caveat that a lot of my friends are evangelical, 0:07:13.196 --> 0:07:15.876 white Evangelical Christians, and some of them have have real 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:20.436 concerns about Donald Trump. Let's talk about the Republican part 0:07:20.516 --> 0:07:24.316 because your path was not very wavering with respect to Republicanism. 0:07:24.316 --> 0:07:27.516 You worked for Reagan, you worked for George W. Bush, 0:07:28.356 --> 0:07:32.556 You've been the leading Republican thinker. Talk about how you 0:07:32.596 --> 0:07:36.276 could move away from that terminology. Yeah, you're exactly right. 0:07:36.276 --> 0:07:38.636 I mean, the Republican Party was the party that I've 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.356 been a member of since I first cast my first 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:44.076 vote for president, which was which was Ronald Reagan, and 0:07:44.276 --> 0:07:46.396 was a proud Republican. I never thought it was a 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:48.276 perfect party by any means. There's no such thing as 0:07:48.316 --> 0:07:50.316 a perfect party. Otherwise it wouldn't be a party. No, 0:07:50.396 --> 0:07:53.356 there's not. There's not, And you know I would even 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:55.836 in my writings when I was, for example, blogging for 0:07:55.876 --> 0:07:59.156 Commentary magazine, it was an unusual for me to take 0:07:59.156 --> 0:08:02.636 on Republicans. So it wasn't a party that I was. 0:08:02.996 --> 0:08:05.716 You know, I didn't feel like I was a blind follower, 0:08:05.756 --> 0:08:07.796 but I certainly was comfortable there. And as you said, 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:10.476 I worked in three three republic administrations. I'd say several 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:14.436 things have happened to the Republican Party which has troubled me. 0:08:14.836 --> 0:08:19.676 One is a dramatic evaluation of ideas. You know, Daniel 0:08:19.676 --> 0:08:22.636 Patrick moynihan in The New York Times in nineteen eighty 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:26.156 nineteen eighty one wrote in an op ed in which 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:29.716 he said that the Republican Party in an instant had 0:08:29.796 --> 0:08:32.676 become the party of ideas, and that was for somebody 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:35.076 like me, who was really a child of the Reagan Revolution, 0:08:35.756 --> 0:08:39.156 that was really important. There was an intellectual vigor and 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:42.636 excitement in that era. If you go back and think 0:08:42.676 --> 0:08:46.036 what were some of the key and central books of 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:49.956 the nineteen eighties. Losing Ground by Charles Murray on welfare reform, 0:08:50.436 --> 0:08:53.476 the Closing of the American Mind by Alan Bloom, which 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:58.436 was a warning against relativism or relativism and postmodernism, the 0:08:58.516 --> 0:09:01.956 Naked Public Square by Richard John Newhouse. And there was 0:09:01.956 --> 0:09:05.236 the Federal Society in antonin Scalia. And so that was 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:08.396 the kind of intellectual milieu that that existed when I 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:10.996 came to be part of the Republican Party and the 0:09:10.996 --> 0:09:13.996 conservative movement. And I think there's been a dramatic devaluation 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:17.996 of ideas which is culminated in this Trumpian moment. Can 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:19.676 I can I actually ask you a question just about 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:22.556 about that deviation, because I've heard other people make a 0:09:22.596 --> 0:09:26.796 similar argument and I'm not sure I understand the contours 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:29.636 of it in the following way. There's no question that 0:09:29.836 --> 0:09:33.516 Trump is not a conservative who comes out of that 0:09:33.636 --> 0:09:38.756 particular set of intellectual traditions that you describe. And it's 0:09:38.796 --> 0:09:42.436 also the case that very very few, if any, of 0:09:42.476 --> 0:09:45.716 the people whom he's appointed to important influential positions come 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:48.516 out of those intellectual traditions. But that doesn't mean that 0:09:48.556 --> 0:09:52.996 the ideas have disappeared. There's those same ideas are still 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:55.796 out there, and in one sphere, the sphere you mentioned 0:09:55.836 --> 0:10:00.956 the Federalist Society, there of conservative constitutional and legal thought. Actually, 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:05.116 Trump has consistently appointed people who are full of ideas 0:10:05.236 --> 0:10:07.396 that our ideas, very much out of that intellectual tradition, 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:11.116 which are creative and challenging, and they might be right 0:10:11.156 --> 0:10:12.996 and they might be wrong, but they're certainly interesting. I mean, 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:15.876 I think of Justice Neil Gorsuch, for example, who's himself. 0:10:15.876 --> 0:10:18.196 You know, he's an intellectual. I mean, how else would 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:20.156 you describe someone who, in the middle of his legal 0:10:20.156 --> 0:10:23.196 career goes back to Oxford to finish his PhD. And 0:10:23.836 --> 0:10:26.076 you know, on the Supreme Court he's pushing a very 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:29.156 particular It's not Scalia's version, but it's a particular conservative 0:10:29.196 --> 0:10:32.396 federalist society version of critique of the administrative state and 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:34.916 of its overreach. I mean, it's very it's an exciting 0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:38.276 fermenting time, even if you disagree deeply with what the 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:41.476 ideas are that he's that he's offering. So in the 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:44.916 ideas are still out there. It's just that this current 0:10:44.996 --> 0:10:50.276 president isn't super interested in them. Yeah, I let me 0:10:50.476 --> 0:10:53.916 untangle that a little bit and maybe give my own 0:10:54.036 --> 0:10:58.476 my own spin on what you said. I don't doubt 0:10:58.556 --> 0:11:01.356 and I would never argue that there aren't people who 0:11:01.356 --> 0:11:05.036 are intellectuals within the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. 0:11:05.076 --> 0:11:07.036 I mean, it's it's not as if all ideas have 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:09.236 been shattered they don't exist, or there aren't people that 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:12.436 care for them. What I mean about the devaluation of 0:11:12.476 --> 0:11:16.756 ideas is that if you took a step back and said, 0:11:17.196 --> 0:11:19.196 not just Trump and not just the people who Trump 0:11:19.276 --> 0:11:21.836 is hired, but the people who nominated Trump and what 0:11:21.916 --> 0:11:25.596 defines the Republican Party today, I would say that if 0:11:25.596 --> 0:11:30.556 you listen to conservative talk radio or the or Fox News, 0:11:31.236 --> 0:11:34.476 there aren't serious arguments for the most part on policy. 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.436 It's the politics of theatrics that is that has happened. 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:41.076 The way I've described it to people is I got 0:11:41.076 --> 0:11:43.916 the feeling that somewhere along the way, a lot of 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:47.796 the let's say, the conservative media complex, of which I know, 0:11:48.036 --> 0:11:50.916 these people, I've been, you know, friends with them. These 0:11:50.916 --> 0:11:54.156 are people I've known for many decades. But somewhere along 0:11:54.196 --> 0:11:56.276 the way, I think that they just got tired of 0:11:56.356 --> 0:11:59.156 some of the arguments that were being made. For example, 0:11:59.476 --> 0:12:02.476 you know the issue of cutting taxes, right, and that's 0:12:02.516 --> 0:12:06.076 been a perennial debate here between liberals and conservatives. Liberals 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:09.036 saying that it's tax cuts for the rich, it's oriented 0:12:09.556 --> 0:12:11.916 just to help the wealthy to get wealthier, that it 0:12:12.156 --> 0:12:15.076 exacerbates the deficit, and it's harmful to the economy, and 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:19.476 the traditional conservative response was, no, these tax cuts are 0:12:20.516 --> 0:12:23.516 done to try and generate economic growth, which helps everybody, 0:12:23.596 --> 0:12:27.276 so overall they're better for the economy. I think that 0:12:27.356 --> 0:12:29.876 conservatives just got tired of doing that. And what happened 0:12:29.956 --> 0:12:32.196 is Donald Trump came in and there was a pretty 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.756 impressive field in twenty sixteen that you could have chosen 0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:37.356 depending on what your flavor of ice cream was, and 0:12:37.436 --> 0:12:39.356 if you're a more libertarian, there was Rand Paul. If 0:12:39.356 --> 0:12:41.956 you are a certain kind of Christian conservative, there was 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:45.956 Mike Huckabee or Rick Santorum. If you were a kind 0:12:45.996 --> 0:12:48.516 of let's say, reform conservative, there was Jeff Bush or 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:51.596 Mark Ruby or John kay Sick, or there was Chris Christie. 0:12:51.636 --> 0:12:54.676 I mean, the one person that you would not have 0:12:54.796 --> 0:12:58.516 chosen out of that field if you were a traditional 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:01.756 Republican would have been Donald Trump. And yet he won, 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:04.356 and he went actually quite easily. So the question is 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:07.556 what would have cost people who for years and years 0:13:08.076 --> 0:13:10.516 were the kind of purity patrol that said, if there 0:13:10.556 --> 0:13:14.316 was one deviation from ideology, whether it was Jeff Bullish 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:17.676 or Mitch Daniels, they were attacked on conservative talk radio. 0:13:17.716 --> 0:13:19.996 Is no longer being conservative. And many of these people 0:13:20.156 --> 0:13:25.196 rallied behind Donald Trump, Who's who's done things a thousand 0:13:25.196 --> 0:13:28.276 times or worse than Mitch Daniels, or were Jeff Bullish 0:13:28.316 --> 0:13:31.116 And the answer was, in my estimation, large part of 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:34.036 the answer was that they were excited by his style. 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:36.676 They didn't care about ideas, it was the theatrics. It 0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:39.796 was entertaining to them. And the other thing that I 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:42.276 think is part of this too is Trump tapped into 0:13:42.276 --> 0:13:47.076 these seething resentments and grievances on the American right, some 0:13:47.156 --> 0:13:50.236 of which were understandable. Certainly if you were an evangelical 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:52.356 Christian you felt like you had been mocked and ridiculed 0:13:52.356 --> 0:13:55.156 by the elite culture. There was some basis for that, 0:13:55.756 --> 0:14:00.356 but there was the seething, these seething resentments that that grew, 0:14:00.476 --> 0:14:03.676 and Trump tapped into it. I mean, that's you're clearly 0:14:03.756 --> 0:14:05.556 right about that, Pepe, But I can I offer it 0:14:05.556 --> 0:14:08.636 a third hypothesis supplements the other two. It's not meant 0:14:08.636 --> 0:14:11.276 to replace it, and it's one that you know, cuts 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:14.876 maybe a little close to the bone, but it's that Arguably, 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:19.236 the George W. Bush administration had the effect within the 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:25.836 Republican Party of discrediting the sort of project of ideas 0:14:25.916 --> 0:14:31.196 driven conservatism in the foreign policy side because of the 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:35.876 Iraq War, and you know, as you know, because somewhere 0:14:35.876 --> 0:14:37.516 in the complexity of the chaine of government where you 0:14:37.556 --> 0:14:38.836 were close to the very top, and I was close 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:41.796 to the very bottom. I was working for the officer 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:44.876 reconstruction of humanitarian assistance and then the Coalition Provisional Authority 0:14:44.916 --> 0:14:47.676 in Iraq. So I was there too, and I think 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:49.996 in some important ways when it came to foreign policy, 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:53.476 the wing of the conservative thought world that came to 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:56.996 be called neo conservative lost credit. And one thing Trump 0:14:57.036 --> 0:14:59.676 was very clear on was his repudiation of what he 0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:03.756 would be characterized as neo conservative ideas, ideas about spreading 0:15:03.756 --> 0:15:05.836 freedom in the world. And I think some of the 0:15:05.876 --> 0:15:08.556 blame there falls with the Bush administrations failures in Iraq, 0:15:08.596 --> 0:15:11.196 of which I consider myself to be a part, a 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:14.156 small part, only because I was a small figure. And 0:15:14.196 --> 0:15:17.676 then on the domestic side, there was the fact that 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:20.596 the Bush administration, partly because of the Wars, left the 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:24.316 United States with a larger deficit than it had received 0:15:24.716 --> 0:15:27.516 and that helped drive the birth of the Tea Party. 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:32.316 And you know, there too, the small government side of 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:34.996 the ideas seemed not to have cashed itself out in 0:15:34.596 --> 0:15:37.516 a concrete way. And I think arguably it's just a 0:15:37.596 --> 0:15:40.916 hypothesis that opened the door for Trump to walk in 0:15:40.996 --> 0:15:43.916 and say, you don't need the ideas Conservatives, those are 0:15:43.916 --> 0:15:45.796 the people who gave you the Bush administration, and I'm 0:15:45.796 --> 0:15:48.836 going to give you something really different. Yeah. Look, I 0:15:49.076 --> 0:15:52.476 think it's it's completely valid to say that. By the 0:15:52.556 --> 0:15:54.916 end of his presidency that the Bush presidency it was. 0:15:55.116 --> 0:15:57.476 It was obviously low and there was a reaction against it, 0:15:57.636 --> 0:15:59.316 and it may well have opened the door. I think 0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:01.116 that a lot of things probably opened the door to 0:16:01.156 --> 0:16:04.956 Donald Trump. But if you would have thought that the 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:07.436 Bush administration for the sake of the argument, if you 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:11.516 felt like it was discredited by instead of ideas, then 0:16:11.716 --> 0:16:15.276 you would come up, presumably and hopefully with another set 0:16:15.276 --> 0:16:19.756 of coherent political ideas. That's not really what happened with 0:16:19.836 --> 0:16:21.956 Donald Trump. You got a person who has no interest, 0:16:22.036 --> 0:16:26.716 no acquaintance with ideas at all. And I wouldn't lay 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:29.676 that at the foot of George W. Bush or anybody else. 0:16:29.916 --> 0:16:32.556 And I will say, even when George W. Bush was 0:16:32.636 --> 0:16:36.516 riding fairly high in the Republican Party, certainly in his 0:16:36.596 --> 0:16:40.916 first term, we had these conversations with him. I recall 0:16:40.996 --> 0:16:44.276 these actually where he was warning about the rise of 0:16:44.916 --> 0:16:52.036 the isms nativism, protectionism, and isolationism. And so those movements 0:16:52.076 --> 0:16:56.556 were already coming, not because I mean they predated the 0:16:56.676 --> 0:17:00.916 sense among Republicans that the Iraq War had been completely lost. 0:17:00.996 --> 0:17:02.956 In all of the rest I will say, just as 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:05.276 a footnote here on the Iraq wars, it's more than 0:17:05.276 --> 0:17:07.476 a footnote, but in the context of the conversation. But 0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:09.516 I think it's important for the zake of history and 0:17:09.556 --> 0:17:12.796 the reality of things, which is what George W. Bush 0:17:12.876 --> 0:17:14.836 did in the Iraq War with a surge in two 0:17:14.836 --> 0:17:17.796 thousand and seven was one of the most impressive and 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:20.676 bravest political decisions that I'd ever seen, and actually turned 0:17:20.716 --> 0:17:24.156 the war around when he named Dave Petreus and Ryan 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:27.116 Crocker to essentially lead that effort. And by the time 0:17:27.516 --> 0:17:30.396 his presence he came to an end, Iraqis was hardly 0:17:30.436 --> 0:17:34.716 Switzerland or Swede in terms of how pacified the country was, 0:17:34.796 --> 0:17:37.236 but it was in considerably better shape than it was 0:17:37.276 --> 0:17:40.276 in two thousand and five two thousand and six, and 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:42.476 the war had been turned around. And in my mind, 0:17:42.716 --> 0:17:45.436 when Barack Obama pulled out all of the troops in 0:17:45.476 --> 0:17:48.956 twenty eleven, that triggered the downward spiral that we're still 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:52.036 seeing now. Having said that, there's no question that the 0:17:52.036 --> 0:17:55.476 war was deeply unpopular and it hurt the larger project 0:17:55.956 --> 0:18:00.036 of democratization in the Middle East. I think what you 0:18:00.116 --> 0:18:02.316 say makes me think that we, you know, we should 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:04.276 have a serious conversation. I mean, the world needs a 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:08.036 serious conversation about the Surgeon in retrospect. I was a 0:18:08.036 --> 0:18:09.716 strong supporter of the Surgeon the time, and I think 0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:11.356 it did accomplish some of the things you describe, But 0:18:11.476 --> 0:18:13.516 I think the history of it is, in fact, it 0:18:13.716 --> 0:18:17.156 is pretty complex, and you know, deserves its own thorough conversation. 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:18.756 I wanted to say one more thing in defense of 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:22.956 George W. Bush. You know, you tell this fascinating story 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:26.556 about his pointing to the rise of nativism and protectionism 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:30.516 and isolationism. Arguably, one of the things that saved the 0:18:30.596 --> 0:18:35.156 United States from entering into a period of public islamophobia 0:18:35.196 --> 0:18:39.596 in the immediate aftermath of September eleventh was George W. Bush. 0:18:39.636 --> 0:18:42.036 I mean, if you look at how Islamophobia rose during 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:46.836 the Obama years and obviously culminated in Donald Trump's run 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:51.036 for the presidency, I think, you know, historians will want 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:52.596 to know, well, why didn't this happen sooner? I mean, 0:18:52.636 --> 0:18:54.836 it was so long after nine eleven had happened, And 0:18:54.916 --> 0:18:56.676 I think a major part of the answer is that 0:18:56.756 --> 0:18:59.556 the President of the United States, George W. Bush, actively 0:18:59.836 --> 0:19:03.676 and thoughtfully carved out a position that said we are 0:19:03.716 --> 0:19:07.436 not at war with Islam, and he refused to use 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:12.076 any islamophobic rhetoric, and he allied the United States with Muslims, 0:19:12.676 --> 0:19:16.196 and I think that actually had a suppressing effect on 0:19:16.236 --> 0:19:19.596 what otherwise would have been somewhat natural islamophobic sentiments that 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:21.276 would have followed from nine to eleven. And when he 0:19:21.636 --> 0:19:25.236 withdrew from the political scene after two thousand and eight, 0:19:25.636 --> 0:19:27.916 there was just nobody there with the capacity to rein 0:19:27.956 --> 0:19:29.596 them in. I'm not saying that Barack Obama, of course, 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:32.036 was islamophobic, just that he didn't have the same kind 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:34.916 of credibility on the issue with those people who would 0:19:34.956 --> 0:19:37.356 want to incline in that direction. And I think this 0:19:37.436 --> 0:19:41.276 is something that that w has not received sufficient credit 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:43.636 for in retrospect, and I think it's something that's worth 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:48.156 worth noting. Yeah, well, I agree with you on that, 0:19:48.676 --> 0:19:51.756 and I would just say it's on this larger point 0:19:51.836 --> 0:19:55.796 about the Republican Party in the American right and what's 0:19:55.796 --> 0:20:00.956 happened in terms of it's intellectual, you know, movements. I 0:20:00.956 --> 0:20:04.596 would say, now, to the degree that Donald Trump has 0:20:04.676 --> 0:20:08.236 any set of policies, and it's difficult sometimes to tell 0:20:08.276 --> 0:20:11.276 what they are, what what kind of ideology that he has, 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:15.316 it is fascinating to me how much he's transformed the 0:20:15.356 --> 0:20:18.716 Republican Party. I mean, I'll give you one example that's 0:20:18.716 --> 0:20:22.196 relatively recent, but underscores I think all sorts of pathologies 0:20:22.236 --> 0:20:24.876 that have happened, and that has to do with the 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:28.556 issue of debt, deficit, limited government. Now, people on the 0:20:28.596 --> 0:20:32.116 American right, you're exactly correct when you talked about the 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:34.316 Tea Party right that that came out because there was 0:20:34.316 --> 0:20:39.756 a sense of tremendous frustration with Mitch McConnell and John Bayner. 0:20:39.876 --> 0:20:42.156 So if you listened to it to conservative talk radio 0:20:42.196 --> 0:20:45.516 around two thousand and nine, twenty ten, twenty eleven, you're 0:20:45.516 --> 0:20:48.116 almost as likely to hear criticisms of Bayner and McConnell 0:20:48.156 --> 0:20:51.556 as you were of Obama. So you got a sense 0:20:51.636 --> 0:20:56.476 back then, pre Trump, of this rising populism and anger. 0:20:56.796 --> 0:21:00.116 Like Rush Limbaugh, for example, shifted from years and years 0:21:00.236 --> 0:21:04.796 it was a binary conflict between liberalism conservatism, and more 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:08.556 and more it went to establishment and the establishment. And 0:21:08.796 --> 0:21:11.596 if you look at where Rush Limbaugh is now versus 0:21:11.636 --> 0:21:14.476 where he was during the Reagan years, you see these 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:17.716 profound changes. This the other day, Russia Limbaugh got a 0:21:17.756 --> 0:21:20.796 call from a listener who was concerned about the debt 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:24.636 and the deficit, and Rush essentially laughed it off, said 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:27.676 it doesn't matter, hasn't been a problem, hasn't come back 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:30.116 to bid us. Have you listened to Russia Limbaugh for 0:21:30.316 --> 0:21:34.556 virtually his entire career, particularly when deafits were going up 0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:38.436 under Democratic presidents, he whacked them up side ahead again 0:21:38.476 --> 0:21:41.476 and again and again. And yet because of Donald Trump 0:21:41.676 --> 0:21:44.276 and Donald Trump has no interest in limited government, the 0:21:44.316 --> 0:21:48.116 deficit has increased by around fifty percent I think over 0:21:48.356 --> 0:21:52.236 the last three years. You see this illustration, which is 0:21:52.276 --> 0:21:56.036 the Republican Party, which for years made this an issue, 0:21:56.036 --> 0:21:58.876 if at least theoretically, if not in their execution and 0:21:58.916 --> 0:22:02.036 through policy, said that debt and deficit mattered, and limited 0:22:02.036 --> 0:22:04.276 government and a liberty mattered. Now you got a guy 0:22:04.356 --> 0:22:07.036 with like Donald Trump who doesn't care about those issues 0:22:07.076 --> 0:22:08.756 at all, and they've shifted with him. You see the 0:22:08.756 --> 0:22:12.156 same thing on protectionism versus free trade. The Republican Party 0:22:12.156 --> 0:22:14.076 as long as I've been alive, has been the party 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:18.276 a free trade. Now, if you did a poll, Democrats 0:22:18.316 --> 0:22:20.916 are more likely to be free traders than Republicans. It's 0:22:20.916 --> 0:22:23.956 a fascinating flip. So we've talked a lot about what's 0:22:23.996 --> 0:22:26.876 gone wrong, but you're also looking forward and thinking about 0:22:26.916 --> 0:22:29.236 what to do next. And your new book is actually 0:22:29.556 --> 0:22:32.516 directly forward looking. It's called The Death of Politics, How 0:22:32.516 --> 0:22:35.436 to Heal Our fred Republic After Trump. So, first of all, 0:22:35.476 --> 0:22:38.876 you're assuming there isn't after Trump in our future, and 0:22:38.916 --> 0:22:41.076