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Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Ridiculous Romance. Hello, we're your hosts.

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Speaker 1: I'm Eli, I'm Diana, and we're very excited that you're

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Speaker 1: here to hear part two of the Lily Elbe and

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Speaker 1: go to Regnar story. Yeah, um, I hope everybody listening.

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Speaker 1: How a chance to listen to part one? If you

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Speaker 1: didn't pause this right, go back into your app cycle

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Speaker 1: one episode back and give that a listen first. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you may be a little lost. Yeah, it'd be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, be like stepping into someone's life when

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Speaker 1: they're you know, middle aged and uh and and just

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Speaker 1: taking the story from there and you have no idea

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Speaker 1: who they are, what their whole thing is. You know,

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Speaker 1: nobody wants that. That's why we stopped making friends in

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Speaker 1: our childhood friends only. Well, how's everybody doing. It's Friday.

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Speaker 1: That's exciting for some I know right for this we

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Speaker 1: we used to have brunch job, so Friday was just

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Speaker 1: like Friday. Yeah, the threat of coming work weekend, horrible

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Speaker 1: horrible weekend. Those were there was a great job and

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Speaker 1: a horrible job at the same time. Anybody who ever

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Speaker 1: weighted tables knows what I'm talking about. I feel like

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Speaker 1: a lot of jobs could fit into that category. However, Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing about serving is the flexibility and the freedom

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Speaker 1: and the early you know, if you're doing brunch, the

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Speaker 1: early out time, so by you know, to three o'clock,

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Speaker 1: I've got the whole rest of the day ahead of me.

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Speaker 1: Except I'm I'm a zombie because I woke up at

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Speaker 1: five am, right, and then ran around doing crazy tasks.

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Speaker 1: All that was the best shape of my life was

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Speaker 1: when I was so true I had to carry that

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Speaker 1: those ice buckets was great. You had guns carrying those

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Speaker 1: ice buckets, I know, right. Well, plus I had that

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Speaker 1: thing where you know they'll be like, well, i'll get it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's too heavy for you, And I was like,

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Speaker 1: watch this show you. I'll show you it's too heavy,

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Speaker 1: you know, And then I come up like, is kind

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Speaker 1: of too heavy? Should My friend Mike used to be like,

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Speaker 1: your veins in your neck they're so prominent. But I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, move, I can do it. But of course

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Speaker 1: we're not here today to talk about waiting tables. We're

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Speaker 1: here today talk about uh, We're here today to talk

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Speaker 1: about waiting for a better world. Yeah, waiting for society

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Speaker 1: to catch the funk up. So if you caught part one,

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Speaker 1: and I hope you did, you know we're talking about

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Speaker 1: Lily Elbe and Gerda Beginer and I say that we

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Speaker 1: just go ahead and jump right into the second part

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Speaker 1: of our lives here and not waste any more time.

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Speaker 1: You're ready, Yeah, let's do it. Hey, their friends come listen. Well,

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Speaker 1: Elia and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking,

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Speaker 1: no romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationships. I love.

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Speaker 1: It might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 1: abstract cons and a concrete wall. But if there's a story,

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Speaker 1: we went the second plans we show its Agilus well

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. And just to reiterate,

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Speaker 1: as we're telling this story again, normally, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't want to dead name people or talk about their

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Speaker 1: old pronouns. But in this particular version of the story,

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Speaker 1: which we did Paul from Lily's own memoirs, she distinctly

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Speaker 1: talks about in are and Lily as two very separate people. Um,

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Speaker 1: this is a very different time. Uh. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: we talked a lot about how the language has evolved. Um,

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Speaker 1: the science has evolved, the understanding of the situations evolved. Um.

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Speaker 1: But we're going to tell the story like she did,

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Speaker 1: um and sort of refer to both of them individually

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Speaker 1: at different times. Yeah. When we left off last time

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Speaker 1: Ininar was heading to the Magnus Hirschfield Institute for Sexual

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Speaker 1: Research for his very first operation. This place, this, remember

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Speaker 1: this incredible place that existed in the late twenties early

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Speaker 1: thirties in Germany that was immagical in terms of how

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Speaker 1: they were researching and appreciating and progressing the idea of

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Speaker 1: what it meant to be gay or transgender. Yeah, amazing place.

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Speaker 1: Just blew my mind to this place existed, and it

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Speaker 1: made me very angry that it was then destroyed by

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Speaker 1: the Nazis and and reset the whole damn conversation they

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Speaker 1: were having back then, it did and throwing this additional

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Speaker 1: quick fling, I guess, but discovered too that the Nazis

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Speaker 1: not only completely destroyed this hospital all its records, its library,

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Speaker 1: everything that it had built, but it also of course

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Speaker 1: had a list of patients, and sadly, the Nazis did

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Speaker 1: sees that list and used it to round up a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people and kill them and exterminate them for

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Speaker 1: being different and so but at this point in our story,

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Speaker 1: the Magnus Hirshfield Institute is still awesome, going strong and

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Speaker 1: is kind of providing like the one ray of hope

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Speaker 1: in inners life at this point. UM. So he's heading

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Speaker 1: off for his first operation, and you know, he knew

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Speaker 1: that he had decided to end his life on May one,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty because of all this torment that he was

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Speaker 1: going through. UM, and he was kind of in this

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Speaker 1: mind space that like, you know, if this operation is successful,

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Speaker 1: Lily gets to live. And that was kind of the

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Speaker 1: best case scenario because because no matter what happened in

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Speaker 1: Are was was done. You know, we're done with in Are.

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Speaker 1: So full of hope and also a lot of fear.

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Speaker 1: Inar traveled to the institute alone to undertake this this

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Speaker 1: first operation. The doctor at the institute told him that

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Speaker 1: during the operation, which was to remove inars testicles um,

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Speaker 1: the doctor had indeed discovered a shriveled pair of ovaries

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Speaker 1: that had not been able to fully develop. So it's

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Speaker 1: possible that Inar was intersex, although that is disputed by

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Speaker 1: several of the sources. I'm not sure exactly why. If

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Speaker 1: it's just that, you know, maybe they didn't have a

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Speaker 1: very good understanding of being intersexed at that point, and

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Speaker 1: so now we wouldn't necessarily call it that or you

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Speaker 1: know whatever, but Iinar definitely wrote, you know, they found ovaries.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty sure that I was meant to develop as

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Speaker 1: a woman and just didn't because I had both sexual organs.

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Speaker 1: And after the operation, they had told Iar that this

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Speaker 1: was a very minor operation that he was going to undergo.

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Speaker 1: But of course it took nearly two hours and for

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Speaker 1: days afterward, she was in terrible, terrible pain. Um, but

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Speaker 1: nurses and doctors were congratulating her on her fine soprano

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Speaker 1: voice that she had. Now Um, she wrote like a

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Speaker 1: scribbled a note to a nurse and they were like,

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Speaker 1: no man could have written this. It's a woman's script,

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Speaker 1: you know, which I thought was kind of funny. Sim

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Speaker 1: In's handwriting and men's handwriting being so different. Well, they've

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Speaker 1: got to they have this uh practice of affirmation. I

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Speaker 1: think this hospital sounds like let's just things that make

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Speaker 1: her feel good, that which is true and and and uh.

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Speaker 1: She even said that doctor came in and kissed her

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Speaker 1: hand and called her madam, and it the title rang

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Speaker 1: in her ears, like this beautiful you know, so that

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Speaker 1: that really said a lot to me that the title madam,

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Speaker 1: being called ma'am for the first time was just so

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Speaker 1: like powerful of such a big moment for her. Um.

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Speaker 1: And of course Claude Provost uh Lily's bo I guess

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Speaker 1: you could call um. He sent a bouquet of flowers

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Speaker 1: and said each bloom was a greeting from him to Lily.

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Speaker 1: And then Gerda came to join Lily and they had

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Speaker 1: some kind of comical awkward times trying to explain about

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Speaker 1: her wife. I think because maybe in this hospital it

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Speaker 1: was pretty unusual for their patients to either be married

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Speaker 1: already or for their spouse to be like still with

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Speaker 1: them at this point. Um. But it was pretty it

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Speaker 1: was a pretty funny story where Lily's like feels so

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Speaker 1: weird being like, this is my wife. I guess is

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Speaker 1: that the best way because I'm a woman now women

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Speaker 1: don't have wives, you know, And so she's like, this

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Speaker 1: is my wife, and the doctors like, oh, yes, I know,

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Speaker 1: and kisses Gerda's hand and it's like men are such deceivers,

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Speaker 1: which is amazing. So I think you're right. It was

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Speaker 1: probably a practice of like, hey, you're you know, we're

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Speaker 1: we're helping you transition also in your mind right, right,

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Speaker 1: well as in your body right. Lily was recovering from

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Speaker 1: her operation and now she was trying to go out more,

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Speaker 1: but she was pretty nervous that people were going to

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Speaker 1: laugh at her or you know, call her a man

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Speaker 1: when she was out. So Gerda and some other friends

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Speaker 1: their's took Lily out to meet a Danish friend of theirs.

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Speaker 1: And this Danish friend didn't recognize Lily as Einar, and

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Speaker 1: Gerda thought that would make Lily happy because, as we

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Speaker 1: sort of said in part one, this idea of passing

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Speaker 1: quotes as a woman, as we've seen, was like very

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Speaker 1: important to Lily. It clearly made her feel more valid,

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Speaker 1: and she was really terrified that people would say she

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Speaker 1: was a man and when she was out in the world.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Gerta's thinking, well, this will make her

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Speaker 1: feel better. This girl didn't even recognize her, but it

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Speaker 1: actually made Lily sad because she was starting to worry

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Speaker 1: that Lily didn't have any friends out there in the world.

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Speaker 1: You know, if people didn't recognize that she was in

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Speaker 1: are she kind of had to start over socially, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which I think is so interesting because it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the hospital, the worst fear is that anyone would go, hey,

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Speaker 1: aren't you in are you know? But then once she's

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Speaker 1: out and she's feeling really lonely, like she's you know,

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Speaker 1: she does recognize her Danish friends, and she wants to

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Speaker 1: talk to her Danish friend and she's like, but she

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Speaker 1: doesn't know me, So now I'm like a baby. So

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Speaker 1: now it's time for the big operation with her doctor

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Speaker 1: Kurt Varna Cross, and so she went on to his hospital,

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Speaker 1: which was the Women's hospital in Berlin, and on the

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Speaker 1: journey in the train, she realized that she's kind of

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Speaker 1: noticing the landscape with a painter's eye, is she was

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Speaker 1: picking up color and detail and stuff like that, and

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Speaker 1: it really upset her because she started to feel like

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Speaker 1: I Are was kind of still within her. She's like,

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Speaker 1: when am I going to be free of in are

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Speaker 1: Innars the painter, you know what I mean. And before

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Speaker 1: her operation, Ininar and Gerda had both talked about in

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Speaker 1: Are stealing Lily's youth by practicing this deception upon her,

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Speaker 1: as you know, of being a man for about thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So now Lily is like rejecting everything to do with Einar.

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Speaker 1: She's like in Aar is a different is a man

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Speaker 1: and a different person. I'm a woman, and that means

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with in R can can be part

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Speaker 1: of my personality anymore. Um. For example, she had an

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Speaker 1: immediate distaste for smoking, Like as soon as she woke

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Speaker 1: up from her operation, she was like, smoking grows, Throw

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Speaker 1: all that away, even though I had smoked for years, Like,

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Speaker 1: throw that ship out. And she stopped painting because she

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Speaker 1: thought in Ours masculinity came out when he painted. He

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Speaker 1: was entirely a man when he painted, and so she

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Speaker 1: thought she wouldn't be any good at it because she

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Speaker 1: didn't have any of that masculine energy I guess left

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Speaker 1: in her perhaps or she also talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: being really scared that she would paint something as lily

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Speaker 1: and then people would compare it to a painting of

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Speaker 1: inn Ours and say she wasn't as talented as I.

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Speaker 1: In R was fascinating. It's it's very yeah again, just

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Speaker 1: just you've got to keep this in mind that it's

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Speaker 1: not just changing your appearance and your name. There's so

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Speaker 1: much more to it. And this is someone who's very

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Speaker 1: clearly having a real crisis. Of identity, who is so

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Speaker 1: having such a difficult time dealing with it that she

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Speaker 1: wants to, you know, erase whole parts of herself just

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Speaker 1: for being associated with her past life. That's I mean, man,

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Speaker 1: if you don't have empathy for that, I just I

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Speaker 1: just don't understand. Really, what a what a challenge? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and how much even more lonely would you be? You

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Speaker 1: don't even get your past to comfort you. Right, you're

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Speaker 1: just literally like a newborn right in the world, but

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Speaker 1: you're in a grown body walking around being like, I

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Speaker 1: should know people, I should have a career, I should

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Speaker 1: have things already that I don't. I feel I don't

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Speaker 1: have anymore because there's no conversation around it. There's no

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Speaker 1: you know, mental health care equivalent. There's there's no process

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Speaker 1: for helping someone through this. And that's clearly so necessary

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Speaker 1: because it's it sucks that she felt like she needed

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Speaker 1: to disconnect from this entire past when that was that

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Speaker 1: was still a really cool skill that she had. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would. I wouldn't say. You know, she's worried about

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Speaker 1: being less talented than I are. It's like, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: you're more talented, right, Maybe maybe it's the same. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. It's just like this is this is

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Speaker 1: still part of You can change your identity and still

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Speaker 1: retain your skills and these sort of little things that

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Speaker 1: sort of make you who you are underneath all that.

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Speaker 1: But she felt like doing anything that Einar did just

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Speaker 1: made her in Are instead of Lily, So she was

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Speaker 1: just like, forget that. At the women's hospital, Lily realized

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Speaker 1: that her personality had undergone another shift when she saw

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Speaker 1: Kurt Verner Cross again. As i Are, she'd had no

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Speaker 1: problem talking to the doctor, but as Lily, she suddenly

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Speaker 1: felt breathless and fluttery and nervous and like submissive and

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Speaker 1: afraid to ask questions. It's kind of like that time

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Speaker 1: when Ininar was doing the ballet. We sort of run

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Speaker 1: against some of the gender stuff here again, Like she

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Speaker 1: wonders if the doctor is treating her differently than he

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Speaker 1: had treated in Are, so that she would get accustomed

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Speaker 1: to living as a woman. So is this another situation

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Speaker 1: where it's like, well, men are supposed to be this

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Speaker 1: and women are supposed to be this. So now that

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Speaker 1: I'm Lily, I I should be fluttery and submissive and

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Speaker 1: not know what questions to ask and and it kind

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Speaker 1: of just adds in. Now there's a layer of sexism.

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Speaker 1: Women are supposed to be this thing, and now I

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Speaker 1: have to be that thing too, now that you know,

249
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Speaker 1: I've realized that I'm a woman. Yeah, it's it was

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Speaker 1: you know, you know me, I'm not very submissive. So

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Speaker 1: certainly reading some of that, I was like, come on, now, Lily,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be like that or whatever, but

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Speaker 1: you can you can read it, you know, as you

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Speaker 1: can see how desperate she was to disconnect from inn are.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was willing to give up entire talents

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Speaker 1: that she had, so she so anything even if she knew, well,

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Speaker 1: you know not not all women are like that or whatever.

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Speaker 1: She just needed to get us far away from the

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Speaker 1: idea of being you know, anything like inn or anything

260
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Speaker 1: like masculine. That she wanted to be the complete stereotype

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Speaker 1: of of a woman, right because it was like almost

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Speaker 1: like more uh not validating, but like real, Like it

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Speaker 1: made it more real for you the observer than he

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Speaker 1: even did for her, even though I think it did

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Speaker 1: help her validate to herself, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Because she had this idea of what a woman was,

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Speaker 1: and the idea was what she grew up learning in

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Speaker 1: this time period. I wonder if the doctor really was

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Speaker 1: talking to her differently, or if the doctor was like

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Speaker 1: I was legit talking to all the same way, but

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Speaker 1: you you just took it differently because you feel different.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to say, I mean speculation station, I would

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Speaker 1: say he might have done that because he might have

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Speaker 1: had the same binary idea of well, you're a woman now,

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Speaker 1: so I better treat you like I would treat a woman,

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Speaker 1: which is asking questions, you know what to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Think your head is full of nonsense. Isn't that validating

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Speaker 1: for you? You know? Or he just does it intrinsically

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Speaker 1: because that's again just his nature. And I wonder that too,

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Speaker 1: Like one, if you transition from male to female, do

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Speaker 1: you start to see people and I'm sure you do

282
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Speaker 1: unconsciously talk to you differently or treat you differently, you

283
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Speaker 1: know what I mean? Not like a conscious thing from

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Speaker 1: this doctor, like I'm going to treat you differently so

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Speaker 1: you'll feel more affirmed, but rather like when I saw you,

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Speaker 1: as I know, I saw a man, and I unconsciously

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Speaker 1: spoke to that BASI in differently than I speak to

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Speaker 1: this woman. Now that I'm seeing right, and you gotta wonder,

289
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, if there's if there is a validation there.

290
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: You're like, ah, right, I'm experiencing sexism. This this person

291
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Speaker 1: you know, recognizes my my gender. Now, wow, weird world.

292
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Speaker 1: So part of the surgery that she was going to

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Speaker 1: be getting with Dr Kurt Warner Cross was an implant

294
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Speaker 1: of ovaries from a donor, and she was told that

295
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,320
Speaker 1: because these ovaries were coming from a twenty seven year

296
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 1: old woman, that they would give her new youth and vitality.

297
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 1: And Lily would actually go on to protest that she

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Speaker 1: should have a differ birthday from ein Art because she

299
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 1: was younger biologically, and weirdly, the science here actually kind

300
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: of checks out. In Japan, scientists successfully transplanted ovaries from

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Speaker 1: young mice into old mice, and the old mice started

302
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Speaker 1: behaving more like younger mice and even living longer because

303
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 1: of the hormone functions from their new ovaries. That is

304
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 1: so strange to me. So ovaries could be the fountain

305
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: of youth. I mean, I'll get some put in if

306
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 1: it's gonna make me younger, So sounds great. So yeah.

307
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,359
Speaker 1: At the hospital in Berlin, she underwent the surgery to

308
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Speaker 1: have these ovaries implanted, and Gerda obviously had to keep

309
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Speaker 1: the record of this period because Lily is sedated and

310
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Speaker 1: out of it and stuff. Right, we didn't get any

311
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Speaker 1: Lily under you know, sedation journal entries or she's like,

312
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Speaker 1: I'm in the bubble gum factories today and the pepper

313
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Speaker 1: trees told me I wish, Yeah, where's Lily's morphine diary?

314
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Speaker 1: That's the movie I'd like to see um. But yeah,

315
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: but Gerda's feelings about Lily's transformation, I think our best

316
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 1: left to her own words. She wrote in a letter, quote,

317
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Speaker 1: a human being who was born a man, who was

318
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Speaker 1: my husband, my friend, my comrade, has now become a woman,

319
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Speaker 1: a complete woman, and this human being was never intended

320
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Speaker 1: to be anything but a woman. Nothing more is left,

321
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Speaker 1: not a particle is left of my life's comrade and

322
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Speaker 1: fellow wayfarer inn Are. He is the dead brother of

323
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Speaker 1: Lily who now lives interesting. I mean, I think it's

324
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Speaker 1: cool that she's so clearly like this was always how

325
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Speaker 1: it was meant to be. But she's still really sad

326
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Speaker 1: that she lost someone she really cared about. Sure, sure,

327
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,640
Speaker 1: that's understandable. It's a it's a little archaic. I mean

328
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Speaker 1: some of it in terms of, well, now she's a

329
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Speaker 1: complete you know, it's like, well that's not you know,

330
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Speaker 1: we know now that's not what difference between a woman.

331
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Speaker 1: But but it definitely you can you can kind of

332
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Speaker 1: see her working through it here in her own kind

333
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, and yeah, she was definitely having a

334
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,239
Speaker 1: lot of questions were coming up for Gerda, you know,

335
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,680
Speaker 1: much like Lily, wondering kind of how the outside world

336
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 1: would react, how they're old friends and family would react, um,

337
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: if they would accept Lily, if they you know all that.

338
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,360
Speaker 1: She also kind of wondered like, well, now my husband

339
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. There's a woman here. Now, how am I married?

340
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: How do we get divorced? You know, like, what's what's

341
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 1: going on? How does this work? And she also wrote

342
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: quote I cannot help thinking of the one person who

343
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: never really believed in ein are but only in Lily.

344
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Speaker 1: Lily's most intimate friend, Claude Provost. What will he think

345
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: when he sees her again? Interest So, like we all

346
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 1: know Claude is coming brought back for Lily. He's like,

347
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: I've been waiting for this. It's kind of easy to

348
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: lose Gerda in this story a little bit because Lily's

349
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 1: transformation obviously is so huge and and the you know,

350
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: really the anchor point of the reason we're telling this story.

351
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: But Gerda was super fascinating in her own right. Some

352
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: people speculated that Gerda was maybe possibly a lesbian or

353
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Speaker 1: at least bisexual, because her artwork often showed scenes of

354
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: lesbian erotica, but others think that maybe that's just how

355
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: she herself was seeing their sex life after Einar started

356
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 1: living as Lily. But one art historian, Andrea rig Carberg

357
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: in Copenhagen, thinks that Gerda was just as much of

358
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: a pioneer as Lily. Andrea says that Gerda basically revolutionized

359
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 1: the way women are being portrayed in art, because typically

360
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: women were painted by men, and therefore, you know, seen

361
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: through the male gaze, being presented as men see women

362
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: instead of as how women see themselves. So Andrea says,

363
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: quote she painted strong, beautiful women with admiration and identification

364
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,919
Speaker 1: as conscious subjects rather than objects. Gerda's women were rarely

365
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 1: passively laying around in these paintings, but usually engaged in

366
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: performance or in play, or in seduction or sex. Even

367
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: more impressive about Gerda, Andrea says, quote, she got ahead

368
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 1: without trying to be more like the men to do it.

369
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: She loved makeup and fashion and didn't see why embracing

370
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,199
Speaker 1: these traditionally feminine things should make her any less strong.

371
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: She wanted it all, So Gerda's pretty awesome. Yeah and yeah,

372
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: and Andrea was kind of like she was really interested

373
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Speaker 1: in the performance of gender even before inn Are was

374
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 1: starting to struggle with with her identity, because she, I mean,

375
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 1: right here she's saying it, she loved makeup and fashion,

376
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: and she was like, why should I perform more male

377
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: to be successful in a man's world. I should be

378
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: able to be a woman and do whatever the funk

379
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: I want. And I really think that's so interesting that

380
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 1: she was already thinking a lot about like, oh, we

381
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: put on these clothes, and we put on this makeup,

382
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: and it's this one thing, but there's this whole world inside,

383
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: you know what I mean that doesn't adhere to any

384
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: kind of binary and yeah, and the astonishment from Lily's

385
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: doctors when Gerda comes to see her, I think speaks

386
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: volumes of her character as well, because you know, speculation station,

387
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: we already kind of pulled into this. But we wondered

388
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: if the patients were had never married, or if usually

389
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: their spouses had left them or you know, it's like

390
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: you're freak, I'm leaving you kind of thing. Um. And

391
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: so that's why they were so like, oh, your wife's here, Okay,

392
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: well let's goal like extend her on up or whatever. Um.

393
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, Gerda was cool. I mean she could tell

394
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: that this was not some delusion or like mental health

395
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: break or something like that. She's like, what I see

396
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: is someone I love in pain, and I don't want

397
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: them to be in pain anymore. And that's it. That's

398
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: kind of the thing that mattered to her. But yeah,

399
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: their relationship did change. You know, they had a very

400
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: We spoke a lot in Part one about their very

401
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: deep connection that they had when they got married and

402
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: for the many years that they were together. Um. But

403
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: after this operation, their relationship did change form somewhat. Um.

404
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 1: When Lily woke up from her surgery, you know, she's

405
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: out of it. She's in pain, like we are when

406
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: we're undergo some big medical operation. And Gerda wrote in

407
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: her letter that she held her quote like a little

408
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: sister in my arms. And later Lily also described the

409
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,479
Speaker 1: two of them walking through town quote arm in arm

410
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: like affectionate sisters. So they're still really devoted to each other,

411
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: but clearly there's no there's no romance there anymore. It's

412
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: not the same kind of connection or not in love.

413
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I I wonder, I'll pall into speculation station

414
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: here real quick. I wonder how much of that is

415
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: involved from Lily's perspective of I'm trying to leave everything

416
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: about in Are behind and one of those things. I mean,

417
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: if she's ditching the whole career, why not you know,

418
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: his marriage makes sense to me too. I mean, this

419
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: is someone I care about, but I aer was married

420
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: to Gerda. Lily is best friends with Gerda, and that's

421
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: kind of how it always was in their earlier years. Yeah,

422
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: Lily came out to hang and Gerda was like, oh man,

423
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: I feel so good when you're around another maybe because

424
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: also in Are uh described himself as kind of condescending

425
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: and like overly like masculine. Like I wonder if Gerda

426
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: wasn't just like, boy, I'm so glad that asshole like

427
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: a break for a while, and let's let me hang

428
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: out with Lily. It's like you know, the the same person,

429
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: but this one's nice right. Well, and I think too

430
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: that there's the kind of the homophobia we talked about

431
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. Part one is that it's like, well,

432
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: women don't they don't sleep with women, they don't marry women,

433
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: they're not in love with women. I'm a woman, so

434
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: therefore there's nothing there. And maybe Gerda had some of

435
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: that too, was she's sort of like, well, you're a

436
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: woman now, so this doesn't work the same way. Yeah,

437
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's why it's interesting that she did

438
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: paint lesbian erotica. I think a lot of her more

439
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: graphics scenes she painted for a memoir of Casanova's memoirs,

440
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: So we need to get to Cassanova. Um. So you know, Uh,

441
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm like, maybe the subject matter was just there

442
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: and she's just painting what was written, which was two

443
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: ladies doing it. Um. Or if yeah, again, if she

444
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: was sort of like, oh, now that Willy's here, when

445
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: when I and Aar and I are doing it, it's

446
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: almost as if, you know what I mean, there's some

447
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: kind of connection there. She just wanted to explore that

448
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: or something like that. But I don't know that she

449
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: herself had any same sex tendencies. Well, she was definitely

450
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: someone who was at the very least mentally exploring this

451
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: whole idea of gender, you know, in a very interesting way.

452
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: That seems again it's hard to say, I want, I

453
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: want to say it seems ahead of its time, but

454
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: then you learn things about like this institute, and you're like,

455
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: maybe maybe back then it was not quite as ahead

456
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: of its time as we thought it was, and all

457
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: that ship just got reset so that we're we're, you know,

458
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: we've been more catching up to that time at any rate.

459
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: So one day Lily received some mail and inside was

460
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: her new Danish passport with her new legal name, Lily

461
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: ils Elvinez. Elbe was her pseudonym, which she chose because

462
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: the hospital was situated near the river Elbe. Now this

463
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: was only two days before May one of nineteen, which

464
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: remember is when Lily had said, you know, if I

465
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: don't figure this out, I'm going to kill myself because

466
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: either Inar goes or we both go. But she wrote

467
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: quote Innar kept his promise. He was dead and she

468
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: was alive, Lily Elbe. This is just a big moment

469
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: for her to get her her passport with her name

470
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: on it, her picture changed like it was a really

471
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: big deal, a really big deal. Also, excuse me, it's

472
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty and they're allowing people to get new passports

473
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: with their legal name and their correct gender on them.

474
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: Hello again, Hello, we were already there were we were

475
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: so close to getting there in and I'm so oh

476
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: this story makes me angry. I'm really like I've gotten

477
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: hot reading this because I cannot believe. Yeah, and they

478
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: were fully well mean to be. Oh, well, you're a

479
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: woman now, so obviously you need a new passport with

480
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: your new name and you look and everything like and

481
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know in Denmark if that's changed

482
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: since then, or you know, they've kept that process the

483
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: same there. I only know what it is in America,

484
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: which has been very difficult to make changes there. It's

485
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: a good point, Like it's so mad. So at this point,

486
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: Gerda had to go back to Paris for work, so

487
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: she would leave Lily to continue to recover as well

488
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: as to prepare for her final surgery, which was to

489
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: remove her penis and scrotum. So they exchanged tons of

490
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: letters throughout this time, and in June she was fully

491
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: recovered from this last surgery and she was ready to

492
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: leave the hospital. Gerda came to pick her up, and

493
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: Lily had a really hard time. The hospital was like

494
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: this oasis, like everyone there knew her, they knew about her,

495
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: they knew how to talk to her. But now she

496
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: was going to go back into the you know, the

497
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: big wide world, and she'd have to face her old

498
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: circles again as this new person. She thought about never

499
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: returning to Denmark and never seeing her family again because

500
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: she was just so afraid of rejection. That this sounds

501
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: very familiar. I think, um and uh and definitely again,

502
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: just the it's it's so much more than than just

503
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, representing yourself. They're they're all these existing connections

504
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 1: that you kind of have to deal with in one

505
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: way or another, right right, and and and lonely and

506
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: just feel her so alone, even with Gerda next to

507
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: her any friends, it really feels like she feels completely

508
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: like this island and she's so so scared that that people.

509
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: You know, she's thinking about everyone like her sister, her brother,

510
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: you know, friends from Danmark art dealers, you know, career

511
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: colleagues as well as dear friends and just sort of

512
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: I'm just have crazy scenarios play out in her head.

513
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure about horrible things they could say or lovely

514
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: things they could say, and each of them being really terrifying, right,

515
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, just to I like to

516
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: try and find something relatable to myself because obviously I

517
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: can't relate directly to this experience. But like, I hate

518
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: being the new kid. Yeah, I hated it when I

519
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: was the new kid when I was a kid, and

520
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: I hate it now. I hate going to a new job,

521
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: and like I don't know anyone, and I've got to

522
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: like some people are into that. I can't stand it,

523
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: and it takes me a while to feel comfortable in

524
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: any setting with a bunch of people. I don't know.

525
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Add on top of that everything that you just mentioned.

526
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: But she's going through, I can't imagine, you know, can

527
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: only begin to kind of try and understand what that

528
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: felt like. But it sounds like a real challenge, if

529
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: if not an all out nightmare internally, you know, because

530
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: no matter how it goes, you know, it might go great,

531
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: it might be totally fine and awesome, but uh, you know,

532
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: even still you're dealing with that storm in your head.

533
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, for sure, And that that's what so

534
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: much of this story is about an internal storm, internal torment,

535
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: Like everyone outside doesn't know necessarily what's happening. But again,

536
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: this person was so tormented internally that they were willing

537
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: to kill their outside body, do you know what I mean?

538
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: Like they're like, I'm going to die now because I

539
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: just cannot deal with everything going on inside. People don't

540
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: even know. So yeah, Lily was kind of thinking about

541
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: all these different people from inn ours past that she

542
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: would want to see again or was afraid to see again,

543
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: or was wondering like how are they going to react

544
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: to me? Or are they going to still love me?

545
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: Are they still going to accept me? And she realized

546
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: that two faces just kept coming up for her, and

547
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: one of them was her Claude. Her Claude proposed our

548
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: dealer who would send flowers and was always so sweet

549
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: to her. And also Gerda's friend Fernando Porta, who we

550
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: talked about in the first episode, being this Italian guy

551
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: that they knew, and when they went to stay with him,

552
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: Lily had realized that Gerda was they were really vibing,

553
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So she's like, oh uh,

554
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: there might be something there, so Not long after she's

555
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: realizing this, Gerda wakes up from a short nap and

556
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: she saw, I had this beautiful dream you, Lily. You

557
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: and I were in Rome, And Lily asked Fernando was

558
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: with us, wasn't he, and put her arm around around Gerda,

559
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: and they both just realized that they weren't in love

560
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: with each other anymore, that they were maybe in love

561
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: with other people, or at the very least, that their

562
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: paths were not parallel anymore. They would be going off

563
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: in different directions soon. And that morning, Lily sent a

564
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: short note to Fernando saying, quote, dear friend, I will

565
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: only tell you that inn Aar is dead. I know

566
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: that Gerda has not yet told you anything about it.

567
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: Write her and do not neglect her, Lily. And then

568
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: they both went back to Denmark. A friend a girlfriend

569
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: right there like hello, asked my friend out. Finally, I

570
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: know she's not gonna say anything about this, so you

571
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: better come in and ask her because she's waiting. I mean,

572
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: that's great, and that's I think that just shows like

573
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: they're they maintained they do still love each other, you know,

574
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: they maintained this closeness. Obviously they'd spent most of their

575
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: lives together. At this point, they were there incredibly close friends. Yes,

576
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: and Gerda had even said, oh, I wonder what Claude's

577
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: going to think now that she's had her operation. And

578
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: now Lily's like, hey, Fernando, like ask out my friends.

579
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: So they clearly want the other one to be happy,

580
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: even if it's not with them. Yeah. Yeah, And they

581
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: both recognized that they would each themselves be happier with

582
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: someone else. Frantically. That's such love to me, Like what

583
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: what deep love and connection? I mean? Yeah, every once

584
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: in a while, I'm like, man, you know what I

585
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: need to I need to write to that guy and

586
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: tell him he's going to ask you out, because that's

587
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: how much I love you, I know, Right, Sometimes I

588
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: want to go up to these girls that talk to

589
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: you randomly in the grocery store, just ask him out

590
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: and make him feel so good. Don't make me feel

591
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: so good. They never do, but they're always like excuse me,

592
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: can you move your cart please? Or like, hey, that

593
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: was my last banana. You know I'm taking the last banana.

594
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: What kind of apocalyptic Kroger are you going to? Oh?

595
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: These days? By James All the Bananas all right, Well,

596
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna go grab some bananas real quick and we'll

597
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: be right back out to this brief commercial break. Welcome

598
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: back to the show everyone. I hope you all got

599
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: a banana to eat, all right. So I Aar had

600
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: been really well known in Copenhay again, so Lily was

601
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 1: really extra nervous to be there. She was afraid people

602
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: would recognize her, and she was afraid people wouldn't recognize her.

603
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: She was worried what her sister would say when they

604
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: met again. But chief among her concerns was figuring out

605
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: how to divorce Gerda. In Denmark, it was required that

606
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: you had a year of separation before a legal divorce

607
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: would be granted, and then an additional year afterwards to

608
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: make an official which reminds me of our Lucy and

609
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: Desi episode when Lucy went ahead and divorced Desi Arnaz

610
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: one morning after they went out that night. Uh, just

611
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: to just to stick it to him, knowing full well

612
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: that when she saw him the next day went back

613
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: to his house, it would nullify the divorces. But she's like,

614
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: I didn't put all that paperwork together for nothing, she said,

615
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: I didn't want to waste all the legal fees that

616
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: so anyway, this was what was required in Denmark, and

617
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: Lily was determined not to have quote Gerda swindled out

618
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: of two years of her life. Um. And also they

619
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: didn't want to separate, they didn't want to not see

620
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: each other for two years. So a lawyer suggested that

621
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: they petitioned the King Christian the tent. So they had

622
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: a secret meeting with the King, which took less than

623
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: an hour, and by the end of it in October

624
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: of their marriage was dissolved. So even the king, I

625
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: mean even the King of Denmark is like, yeah, this

626
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. I'm so mad well, and they

627
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: were even like two ladies presented themselves to the king.

628
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: So of course the king is like, well, obviously you

629
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: can't be married to a woman. What is this? So

630
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Lily encouraged Gerda to head to Italy as soon as

631
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: possible to hook up with Fernando. She's like, get get

632
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: out there, you know, get you that Italian sausage. I

633
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: know you want it, go get it. But Gerda did

634
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: not leave just yet, because, like we said, she knew

635
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: that Lily was incredibly nervous to be in Copenhagen, so

636
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: she made sure to bring more and more of their

637
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: like old friends and acquaintances into their trusted circle of

638
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: people that knew about Lily, um, so that Lily wouldn't

639
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: be all alone, you know, when Gerda went off to Italy.

640
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: But while pretty much all of their women friends accepted

641
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: Lily and was like, cool, we'll we'll come by tomorrow

642
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: for a drink and see how you doing. Um, both

643
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: of them were really heartbroken because I in ours male

644
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: friends completely refused to associate with Lily. Lily wrote that

645
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: they kind of told Gerda or Lily that they felt

646
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: they'd be betraying inn Are by accepting Lily, that they

647
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: respected iin are too much to be kind to Lily.

648
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: Oh God, see this is that and this is that

649
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: sensitivity that you know. Fragility is really the word where

650
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: it all starts to break down, you know, where it

651
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 1: seems like everything's fine, and then some guys come in

652
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: and they're like, whoa, WHOA. I can't do that. I'm

653
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: not willing to change. I'm not willing to think differently

654
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: about something. I have an established thought pattern, an established relationship,

655
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: and by god, I'm a man and I'm not about

656
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: to change that right, And it's so it's so weird

657
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 1: because one of the things that makes her so nervous

658
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: to see her family and friends is that she feels

659
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: like in our she's afraid they're going to see Lily

660
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: as in and ours murderer. Um. And so this kind

661
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: of I feel backs up that notion for her that

662
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: these male friends are like, you killed my friend. Basically

663
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: he's not here because of you, instead of being able

664
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: to see that they're the same person, which I mean,

665
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, Lily herself has put it that way to

666
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: some degree. Definitely, this is a you know, in our

667
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: is dead, in has gone and I have taken the

668
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: body now. Um. But but it just shows the complicated

669
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: nature of the of the whole transition, and I don't know,

670
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: just that unwillingness to to to transition with her. You know,

671
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, well cool, now Lily's here, Now Lily's

672
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: my friend. Sure that's you know, no one was murdered. Yeah. Well,

673
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: and it was interesting to me too to see that

674
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: because of course, now you know, we're seeing a lot

675
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: of women coming out as turfs where they're kind of

676
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: like a trans woman invalidates me. Biological cis woman somehow.

677
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: I once had a conversation with somebody where I was like,

678
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: this makes me feel like shipped to say, but I

679
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: got really mad when Caitlyn Jenner was named the woman

680
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 1: of the Year for Like Times Woman of the Year.

681
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 1: This was a few years ago. I got really mad

682
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: about it, and I was like, maybe I'm like trans

683
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: exclusionary and some kind of bitch or something, because I'm like,

684
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: you don't deserve that, m But my and I told

685
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: my friend about this because we were having a conversation

686
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: at work about this kind of situous actuality and stuff

687
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: like that, and I was like, I feel like shit

688
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: that I just so mad about this. I don't know

689
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: why it's upsetting me, but it felt like wrong to

690
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: give it to her, and she she said, um, well,

691
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: what if it had been Laverne Cox And I was like, oh,

692
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: that'd be fine. And I realized, just because Caitlyn Jenner sucks,

693
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: not not because Caitlyn Jenner is not a woman, it's

694
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: just that she's terrible. So it made me feel a

695
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: lot better. Thank you to my friend for helping me

696
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: feel better. So then Lily went to go see her

697
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: sister for a few days, which of course caused her

698
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: a lot of turmoil, and she says her sister was

699
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: kind but did struggle to accept her um like she had.

700
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: The sister had put in ours paintings all over her house.

701
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: Lily called it a museum to in our and she

702
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: would kind of be like, don't you see what we've

703
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: lost now that in ars gone talent? You know, don't

704
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: be mad if I can't call you Lily right away,

705
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: and you know, like stuff like that. And so she

706
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: she writes about being very calm and as patient as

707
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: possible for a few days while her sister's kind of

708
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: working through her own very complicated emotions UM. At one point,

709
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: her sister did call her inn are and Lily wrote,

710
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: I felt then as if I ought to die. So

711
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: just again, when we talk about something being triggering, it's

712
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: not like some simple laughable feeling. It really is sometimes

713
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: like I would love to jump out a window because

714
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: you just said that, I mean something triggering is this

715
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: is a psychological term that's been like really grossly co

716
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: opted and overused because being triggered or something being triggering,

717
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: it's not about being upset. It's about having an instance,

718
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: you know, in your past or in yourself that one

719
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: thing can bring up a very serious psychological struggle. Uh.

720
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: And and it's and it's not disrupt everything about your day.

721
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: It's not. Just like I was pissed about that for

722
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes and then I moved on, like that's

723
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: not it. And again we're talking about somebody who's like

724
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 1: especially feeling like totally invalidated as a woman if you say, hey,

725
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: mr or something, you know, and so you're you're basically

726
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: saying she doesn't exist. And so she's like, well, then

727
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: I'll go jump out of a window so that I

728
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: really want to exist, you know what I mean. Like,

729
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: it's just really hard for her to hear her sister

730
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: not quite co and with her on it right away. Um.

731
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: And she admitted that she did not make it easy

732
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: on her sister because her sister was really longing for

733
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: her brother. You know, she's talking a lot about childhood

734
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: memories with I R And everything they used to do

735
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: together and all this stuff, and so she was looking,

736
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, Lily is like I can see her looking

737
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: at me, searching for I are. And she wrote, quote,

738
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: whenever I show myself by my character and by the

739
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: way in which I spoke, in which I moved in

740
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: which I thought I veiled completely the character of ein Are.

741
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: He was ingenious, sagacious and interested in everything, a reflective

742
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: and thoughtful man, and I was quite superficial, deliberately so

743
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: for I had to demonstrate every day that I was

744
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: a different creature from him, that I was a woman,

745
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: a thoughtless, flighty, very superficially minded woman, fond of dress

746
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: and fond of enjoyment. Yes, I believe, even childish. And

747
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: I can say it calmly now. All this was certainly

748
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: not merely farcical acting. It was really my character, untroubled, carefree, illogical, capricious.

749
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: That's so, that's so interesting, And you know, I think

750
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: about the more current discourse, which is, you know, again

751
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: not that I was a man and now I am

752
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: a woman in r and Lily kind of seemed to

753
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: go through. But I have always been a woman my

754
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: whole life. All I'm changing is my presentation, and that

755
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: seems so much healthier than what Lily is going through here,

756
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: which is, you know, I have to I have to

757
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: bury everything that was inn Are so that I can

758
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: be this new person now. And you can see the

759
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: struggle there with her sister too, saying, you know, yeah,

760
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: I really miss who you were. That was the person

761
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: I grew to love my whole life that I grew

762
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: up with. UM. And you know, so you don't want

763
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: to invalidate her feelings the sister because that that that's difficult.

764
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: You know, you can't just say why don't you just

765
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: smile and go with it, because she's got her own

766
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: process to work through. How she goes through that process

767
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: and how, you know, recognizing what's affecting Lily is important.

768
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: And eventually by the end of her trip there after

769
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: she spent like a few days with her sister and

770
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: by the end her sister was like, I'm with it now.

771
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: I accept you. You're my sister, you know. They she

772
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: was cool, but it was a hard few days for

773
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: Lily and her sister to kind of talk. I think

774
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 1: they had one big fight where her sister's like, well,

775
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: you've you know, fucked everything up and inn ores better,

776
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: you know, like she was really having a just a

777
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: really hard time. That's when she called her inn are

778
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: and that's when Lily was like, I felt like I

779
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: ought to die because they probably because of multiple triggers

780
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: in that conversation. UM. But fortunately by the end, the

781
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: sister was like, we're good, good, I love you. You're

782
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: still in my family and I want to be in

783
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: your family, so that that is nice, right, She's feeling

784
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: a little more comfortable probably at this point. And then

785
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: right around this time an article was published outing the

786
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: truth about in R and Lily, and now Lily obviously

787
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: did not feel safe in Copenhagen anymore. She wanted to

788
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: go back to Germany, but her brother invited her to

789
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: stay with him in Judeland, so Lily traveled to her

790
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: brother's home and Gerda left for Italy and Fernando Porta,

791
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: Lily's brother and sister in law treated her lovingly and

792
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: pampered her so that she regained a sense of safety

793
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: and well being, and after a month or so, she

794
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: returned to Copenhagen. That's when her friend and the editor

795
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: of her memoir, Ernst Heartburn, started collecting her letters and

796
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: diary entries to turn into this book, and Gerda came

797
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: back from Italy radiantly happy, all set to Mary. Fernando

798
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: Porta and told Lily that her new home in Italy

799
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: would always be Lily's home as well, and that she

800
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: felt that Lily was both her sister and kind of

801
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: her grown up daughter, and that Fernando would welcome her

802
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: as his daughter too, And Lily wrote, quote how happy

803
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: these words made me. I mean again, just real love,

804
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: real love right there. And She's like and I can

805
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: totally see why she kind of saw as a daughter.

806
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: A lot of people talk about Lily being and she

807
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: herself said she is a bit childish because she was new,

808
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, she felt like a new person. So she

809
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: just didn't really know how to go about the world.

810
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: She didn't how to be a woman in the world,

811
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: I guess, or or whatever. So she she seemed very

812
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: innocent and naive about a lot of things, which I mean,

813
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, being a woman in the world. I mean,

814
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure as much now in that time period, uh

815
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: is something that, as I understand it, you learned to do, yeah,

816
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. So she's kind of starting fresh.

817
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: Makes sense, It's true, And and being naive is not

818
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: a bad quality for a woman, I guess in this

819
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: particular time period, it does inspire a man to want

820
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: to protect you. Don't go learn in maths who will

821
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: marry you? Then? I like that Gerda goes to Italy

822
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: and comes back glowing. She's like, oh sure, I'll go

823
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: down and spend a couple of weeks in Sorrento with

824
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: Fernando Parte. Oh wow, Gerda, you're glowing. You look as

825
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 1: if you've been on a sexual adventure across a son

826
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: and sex soaked sojourn to testing. Yeah. But Lily, at

827
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: this point she needs money, right she everybody needs money,

828
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: income money. Oh yeah, money, it's sort of about that part.

829
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: So an art dealer friend arranged an exhibition of some

830
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: of in Oars paintings which were in storage. Okay, and

831
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: this wasn't unusual because I R and Gerda Again, these

832
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: are famous artists, so they were frequently exhibited. But this

833
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: time they put out a story that they were exhibiting

834
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 1: these works to raise funds to pay for in Oars

835
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: hospital bills, because he had been languishing in a hospital

836
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: in Germany for a long time with this big illness.

837
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: That's kind of how they were explaining the fact that

838
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: no one was seeing in Ar anymore. But you know,

839
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: this this article had come out that was kind of like, hey,

840
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: this is what we think the sources say, blah blah blah,

841
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: And it was really probably a TMZ type snarky, sort

842
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: of sarcastic article. So it caused all those old rumors

843
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: from like nineteen twelve to fly around again about Gerda's

844
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: model being her husband in a dress and who's this

845
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: lady and just all this kind of hurtful ship and

846
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: so nobody bought a single picture at this exhibition, and

847
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: Lily is really upset because she needs income. She knew

848
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: she had friends and family who would support her, but

849
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: she didn't want to be dependent on them. You know,

850
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: She's like, I need to fucking I'm a grown woman

851
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: and I gotta be out here handle in my business.

852
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 1: So like one of her friends was like, hey, why

853
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: don't you just dress up like in R and show

854
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: up and then you'll, you know, put paid to all

855
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: these rumors or whatever. But Lily and Gerda were horrified

856
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: by this suggestion, which I think goes to show you,

857
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: like Einar could dress like Lily and not feel gross

858
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: in those clothes. I guess it is a better is

859
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: the best word I can think of. But Lily putting

860
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: on in are was like, no, absolutely not, yeah, because

861
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: Lily is who she is, right and to put in

862
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: are on I think would almost be like a regression

863
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: for it. She'd be like going back and undoing all

864
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: this surgery she'd undergone and everything. And it's like saying

865
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: that either that that Lily is a costume to yes, totally,

866
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: whichever person I dress up as, that's the person I am.

867
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: And that's not the case. Yeah, absolutely So. Then another

868
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: friend of theirs, who was an editor at a newspaper,

869
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: was like, Lily, let me write an article about you,

870
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: a real article, your own words, describing your tormented existence

871
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: as inn are and what you went through in these

872
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: German hospitals. Let me put it in. Let you tell

873
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: your own story, don't let this article tell it for you.

874
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: And at first Lily was really terrified to give this

875
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: account of her life. But her friend told her that

876
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: a well known painter like in r couldn't just disappear.

877
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: It was time for the public to know the truth.

878
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: And more than that, this German doctor had achieved a

879
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: real medical miracle. Shouldn't everyone know what he'd accomplished. That

880
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: was smart because Lily was like super obsessed with Kurt

881
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: barn Across, and she was like, I I am the

882
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: embodiment of his life's work, you know what I mean.

883
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: So that was that was probably really what got her

884
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: to do it, and it did. She consented and the

885
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: article was published at the beginning of March. And now

886
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: Lily was afraid to go out because she thought everyone

887
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: would recognize her and that everyone would know like she

888
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: was scared to be called an impersonator or afraid people

889
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: would call attention to her or shout her name in

890
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: the street. Being mis gendered wasn't just about feeling triggered

891
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: by her old pronouns. She felt that it invalidated her

892
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: as a woman. As we've talked about. She wrote, quote,

893
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: other women could be ugly, could commit every possible crime. I, however,

894
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: must be beautiful, must be immaculate, else I lost every

895
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: right to be a woman. Yes, as you said earlier,

896
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: it's almost as if she's like, I need to go

897
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: from to a complete one eight as womanly as I

898
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: can possibly get, as stereotypically womanly as I can possibly get,

899
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: or else it doesn't mean anything. But she realized no

900
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: one recognized her, no one was calling her out in

901
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: the street and or running after her. Any of these

902
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: horrible fears she had. None of that was happening. When

903
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: she went out. She even bought the paper that had

904
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: the article in it and then sat on the tram

905
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: and read it, and no one realized that it was her,

906
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 1: even though she was wearing the same coat and hat

907
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: that she was wearing in the picture in the article

908
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: of her. So after that she was really reassured. She

909
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I'm safe. I feel good, and she

910
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 1: started kind of enjoy going out and kind of getting

911
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: a kick out of people not knowing who she was. Um,

912
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: she started going to the gallery where in ars pictures

913
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: were hanging every day, and after this article came out,

914
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: they were like crowds of people going to the to

915
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: this exhibition hoping to catch a glimpse of Lily, like

916
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: they were hoping she'd come out and and show herself,

917
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 1: I guess, And so she went to So Lily went

918
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: to kind of see that and was sort of getting

919
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 1: getting a kick out of that because she was there,

920
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: but no one knew it. And one lady even whispered

921
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: to her, tell me, miss, don't you think that the

922
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 1: lady over there with the large feet and the necktie

923
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: who looks like a man is Lily Elbe And Lily replied, yes,

924
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: most decidedly, that is she, And every picture sold amazing

925
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: which I think is so interesting that an article came

926
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: out being like, hey, guess what Lily il might be

927
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: in our an address or whatever is so gross and rude,

928
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: and people were like afraid to buy the pictures. They

929
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: were like controversial. But as soon as she came out

930
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: with her own story and was like, this is the

931
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: real situation, people were like, Oh, I better go buy

932
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: that painting. You're telling me that an article in the

933
00:53:54,160 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: media can influence people's ideas of social issues. It's almost

934
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: as if the framing of the story really matters to

935
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 1: how you see it yourself. What weird? Right? Huh? Somebody

936
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: ought to put that to good use or evil use?

937
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: I suppose they could do. But who would do that?

938
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: Probably not I know. But who would do that? Who

939
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: would do that? Who would deliberately put harm into the

940
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: world for their own profit? Speaking of we have a

941
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 1: commercial break, Yes we do, so we will be right back.

942
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show everyone. So now Lily's paintings

943
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: are selling and she's feeling good about her place in

944
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: the world. She's comfortable, she's established, and Gerda is like, okay,

945
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: you're good here, girlfriend, I got you. I'm glad you're feeling,

946
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: all right, come visit me anytime. I'm going back to

947
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: Italy and Fernando, because of course I'm going back to

948
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: Italy and Fernando to first chance. All right, I'm gonna

949
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: go sleep with my hot Italian man. And so Lily's

950
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 1: regular doctor told her that she was healthier and healthier

951
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: and she could probably start painting again. But this really

952
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: upset Lily. She was like, don't you see in in

953
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: R is the painter, not me, Like Lily doesn't paint.

954
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: So her friend and editor Ernst told her that she

955
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: didn't have to renounce everything about in Are to be herself.

956
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: He told her, quote, you are a woman. Sometimes you

957
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: were afraid of saying that because it's completely naked and brutal,

958
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: But all truth, in fact is brutal. Much of it

959
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: is even shameless, and there are very few people who

960
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: can understand and endure the most intimate and perfect shame.

961
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: That is the shame of shamelessness. Yeah, which I think

962
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: is kind of like we were just talking about that

963
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: she doesn't have to give up anything about herself. It's

964
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: like Ernst understands even better than she does that she's

965
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: always been Lily, So whatever in in are was Lily

966
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: can also be because Lily has always been there. Yeah, exactly,

967
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: Like he's kind of telling her living unapologetically as your goal.

968
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: You're still apologizing to yourself, if not to anyone else,

969
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: for who you used to be. And you need to

970
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: be able to embrace your full self. You didn't necessarily

971
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: used to be someone different. No, yeah, he's like present differently. Yeah,

972
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: you belong to yourself. Everything you are belongs to you.

973
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: You can. You can use it or lose it however

974
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: you will. But don't lose it because you think it

975
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: means you're not you. He said. Quote this new country

976
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 1: of the soul is lying dormant within you, and whether

977
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: you like it or not, it will go on expanding.

978
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: And this advice worked. Lily takes on an art student

979
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: and begins to paint again. I think that's awesome that

980
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: she had such a good friend like be able to

981
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: say that to her. I mean, she's got an enormously

982
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: awesome support system here, really wonderful people who are totally accepting.

983
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: Man again feels at times it feels better than now

984
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: in some ways, just reading it and reading other things

985
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: and hearing stories from people I know. Now you know

986
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: it's very frustrating, it is, but it's sort of that

987
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: thing about progression where the pendulum sort of swings, Yeah,

988
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: the pendulum, I know, but you can kind of see like, oh,

989
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: this was such a new thing, people are like, oh, yeah, okay, sure,

990
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: I mean, what it's new whatever. And then if if

991
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: kind of like now more and more people are feeling

992
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: comfortable to say I'm non binary or I'm transgender, and

993
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: it's making some people think because of the Internet, that

994
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: oh everyone's transgender now and it's not cool to be

995
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: siss anymore. And oh my god, were like a second

996
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: class you know what I mean, And so you swing

997
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: back to being more intolerant than you might have been

998
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: if it felt like a smaller population. Well, yeah, we

999
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: talked about it that in Part one, about how transitioning

1000
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: back then when you've got to worry about all thirty

1001
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: people that you know, versus now where it's like I've

1002
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: got eleven Facebook friends and I have to deal with

1003
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: all those relationships, um and and yeah, similarly, like we're

1004
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: talking about with the media, there's now there's people, there's

1005
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: people being outrageous about it that it's just like the

1006
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: downfall of society. Who will probably never encounter a transgender

1007
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: person in their lives, you know, and if they did,

1008
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't even know it. You know. It's just absurd,

1009
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: uh to see that pendulum swing back, because it's so unnecessary,

1010
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: and if they do meet a transgender person in their life,

1011
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: it won't affect them at all. Right, what's it going

1012
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: to do to you? Nothing anyway, anyway, the pendulum. So

1013
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 1: then Lily receives a letter from her friend Claude Provost,

1014
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: who's obsessed with Lily, I know, and he told her

1015
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: he was going to be in Copenhagen soon and he

1016
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: would love to see her, and so they spent a

1017
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: whole week together. She took him around Copenhagen and they

1018
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: talked about old times in France and memories they had together,

1019
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: and she was just so so happy with Claude. And

1020
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: Claude told her, you know, you're a grown woman, but

1021
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: I also see you as kind of childlike and innocent,

1022
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: sort of naive. You need someone to be your protector

1023
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: and take care of you. And she was like, oh,

1024
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm gonna go visit Gerda in Italy. And

1025
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: then I'm thinking I'm gonna go back to the women's

1026
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: hospital in Berlin for a few months, and just I

1027
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: was so comfortable there, you know, I'm just going to

1028
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: hang out there. But he offered her a different path.

1029
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: He was working as a diplomatic consular for some time

1030
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: at this point he was about to be transferred from

1031
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: Paris to Turkey, and he took Lily's hands and said,

1032
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: will you come with me? Will you marry me? Lily?

1033
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: Will you be my wife? And she instantly said yes,

1034
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: which she kind of describes as like she didn't realize

1035
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: she was going to say yes. It just came to

1036
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: her lips without thought. She was just like, of course

1037
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: I will. But all that emotion that was he was

1038
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 1: stirring up within her was really kind of freaking her out. Um,

1039
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: she didn't really know why, but she's like, I really

1040
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: feel like I have to go visit Dr Kurt von

1041
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: Across in Germany first. Before I can really say yes

1042
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: or no, I need to go see him. The way

1043
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: she wrote about it was that he he kind of

1044
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: birthed her. He's her creator, quote unquote, so only he

1045
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: has the right to dispose of me. Is sort of

1046
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: how she talked about it. Interesting, Um, which I think

1047
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: is interesting, But I think it's actually more that once

1048
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: she got there, she realized what she was really looking for,

1049
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: and it wasn't permission from Dr Kurt, right, because Lily

1050
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: didn't realize it until she got to the hospital and

1051
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: was standing right there in front of the doctor. But

1052
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: what she wanted was to be able to get pregnant.

1053
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: She had this belief that a quote real woman was

1054
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: able to give birth, and she got a little obsessed

1055
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: with the idea of becoming again another quote, a complete woman,

1056
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: which she had mentioned in those words before she wrote

1057
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: to her friend Ernst quote, it is not with my brain,

1058
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: not with my eyes, not with my hands that I

1059
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: want to be creative, but with my heart and with

1060
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: my blood. The fervent longing in my woman's life is

1061
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: to become the mother of a child. So Lily asked

1062
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: doctor Kurt if he would give her an operation that

1063
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: would enable her to have children. Only a few weeks before,

1064
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: Dora Richter, who we talked about an episode one, was

1065
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: the first woman to have a sexual confirmation surgery. She

1066
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: had successfully undergone since then a full vagin of plastic

1067
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: So doctor Kurt agreed to implant a uterus in Lily

1068
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: and construct a vaginal canal, and then she felt like

1069
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: she would be able to marry Claude, which once again

1070
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: we come back to some inherent sexism and and binary

1071
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: ideas of what makes a man what makes a woman.

1072
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: And Lily has, you know, probably her whole life, believe

1073
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 1: that a woman has babies that's what makes a woman,

1074
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: and wants to yeah. Yeah, And and and that she

1075
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: couldn't marry someone she loved unless she was capable of

1076
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: giving him children. And that's not to say that, you know,

1077
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: that's not valid, that that there are women who feel like,

1078
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, what I need to do is give birth,

1079
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, and and trans women to who think that's

1080
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: very important at this point, Uh, it's it's not been done.

1081
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: It's it's a very theoretical kind of concept. But she

1082
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: feels very strongly about it and is willing to take

1083
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: that risk. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But unfortunately, what doctors did

1084
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: not realize at this time was that the immune system

1085
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: does not like strange objects or organs in the body.

1086
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: You have to really prepare your body to accept a

1087
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: new organ, and you have to have us more advanced

1088
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: medicine than they had at that time. An anti rejection

1089
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: medicine wasn't around until the nineteen seventies, and the first

1090
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: successful organ transplant would not happen until nineteen eighty, so

1091
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: this is obviously many years before that. Lily had her

1092
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: uterus implanted in June of ninety one, but her body

1093
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: rejected it, and she spent months in the hospital, growing

1094
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: weaker and weaker, um with infections and different things, and

1095
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: Gerda sent flowers every day. Claude sent letters telling her

1096
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: he was patiently waiting for her in Turkey whenever she

1097
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: could come join him. But in September, Lily's heart failed.

1098
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: She passed away on September at forty eight years old.

1099
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: In some of her last letters, she wrote that I, Lily,

1100
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: am vital and have a right to life. I have

1101
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,479
Speaker 1: proved by living for fourteen months. It may be said

1102
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: that fourteen months is not much, but they seemed to

1103
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: me like a whole and happy human life. And near

1104
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: the end she sent a letter to her sister saying,

1105
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: now I know death is near. Last night I dreamt

1106
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: about mother. She took me in her arms and called

1107
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: me Lily, and father was also there, which is beautiful

1108
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: because her parents had already passed away by the time

1109
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: she was Lily, so she would never know how they

1110
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: would except or reject her. So I think it's lovely

1111
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: that she had a a dream that they they said

1112
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: they were her family. Yeah, I mean, whether you see

1113
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: that as you know, a real vision or just as

1114
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: her sort of like really accepting herself and believing that,

1115
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, people who loved her would accept her true

1116
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: self too. Either way, it's it's beautiful. And when she

1117
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: stayed with her brother, she was there for like a month,

1118
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, you haven't gone to

1119
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: see our parents gravestones yet, do you want me to

1120
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: take you? And at that time she was like, I

1121
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: know that I don't really have any parents or family.

1122
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 1: They're all in ours family, and so I don't really

1123
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: have any parents. You know. The closest I've got is

1124
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: Dr Kurt barn Across, And so it's it was just

1125
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: interesting that at that point she didn't see her family

1126
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: as even hers, And so I'm just very glad that

1127
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: near the end she did kind of see it that way,

1128
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: like painting, like, you know, she felt like she had

1129
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: to get far away from anything that was in ours,

1130
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: not realizing that she was, you know, Lily all along

1131
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: and these things were important to her, yeah, or that

1132
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: she didn't feel like she had a right to anything

1133
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: whereinar had right. Um, I think it's part of it too.

1134
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: It's not only like I need to push it away,

1135
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: but also it's not mine. I that's not me. It

1136
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: doesn't belong to me, you know what I mean? Just

1137
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 1: very complicated stuff. And it's complicated too because I I

1138
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: part of me is like, well, it's amazing that she

1139
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 1: felt so strongly she was willing to take this risk,

1140
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: she accepted the results in a way that she wasn't

1141
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: going to live through it and felt like, you know what,

1142
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: but I lived the life I wanted to live, and

1143
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: that's really wonderful. I also feel like that her very

1144
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: strong belief that a woman to be a woman, a

1145
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: complete woman, as she said, you need to have a

1146
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 1: uterus and be able to give birth and that, you know,

1147
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: kind of archaic notion is sort of what killed her

1148
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: in a way too. Um, which is sad because it

1149
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: wasn't It was not her being a transwoman that led

1150
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: to her death. It was her rigid beliefs about what

1151
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: a woman needed to be. Yeah. When I wonder too,

1152
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: if it came up that She's like, I really I

1153
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: want to have sex with Claude, and I don't know

1154
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: how because they don't have a vaginal canal. How can

1155
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 1: we do it? The only way I can think of

1156
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 1: is seems gay, do you know what I mean? But

1157
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: Dora had had the vaginal canal, just didn't go with

1158
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: the uterus, right, you know, so you're so right, So

1159
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 1: we could have gone with that, She could have gone

1160
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: with that, but she felt like, again, a complete woman

1161
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: can give birth, and we know cis and trans women

1162
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: who are complete women who cannot give birth or choose

1163
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: not to. And that's, you know, again, that's a newer mindset,

1164
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: I guess, um certainly again, very rigid of her to

1165
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: believe back then. Well, and it's interesting too because the

1166
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: there's a postulation that because of the shriveled ovaries that

1167
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: they found that she maybe had I think it was

1168
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: Klagenfelter syndrome um, which is where you have an extra

1169
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: X chromosome and so you have like smaller testicles and

1170
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: you're usually infertile. Interesting, um, it's sort of a similar

1171
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: as the Turner syndrome for women, where they have an

1172
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,959
Speaker 1: extra chromosome and you might never know in your whole

1173
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: life that you have it until you try to get

1174
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 1: pregnant and you can't introduced mainly and in for a

1175
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 1: ttility thing. So I find it interesting that Einar was

1176
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: not less of a man because they didn't have children.

1177
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: But but Lily would be less of a woman if

1178
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: she couldn't, you know. Fascinating. Well, meanwhile, Gerda is living

1179
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 1: it up with her new husband Fernando in Morocco, but

1180
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: in nineties six he had burned through all of her savings.

1181
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 1: They divorced, so so much for this Italian lover, like

1182
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 1: it's a good time now, but he's he's going to

1183
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 1: use all that money. He sure did, man, Fernando. So

1184
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: Gerda moved back to Denmark and she tried to have

1185
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: more art shows, but by then the Art Deco style

1186
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: was falling out of fashion and her work really didn't

1187
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: sell very well. She slid further into obscurity and poverty,

1188
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: selling hand painted Christmas cards to survive only a few

1189
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: weeks after Nazis invaded Denmark in ninety Gerda died with

1190
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: little fanfare. Yeah, it's not it's just now really that

1191
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 1: people are starting to appreciate who she was in her

1192
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 1: lifetime as he as an artist and as a woman

1193
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: and as the wife of of Lily Elba. You know,

1194
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: she did not get her do in her time. But

1195
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 1: Gerda was cool, all right. Now, there's another aspect we

1196
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: can talk about with uh Lily's death, that she died

1197
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 1: when she did because shortly after that, which was of

1198
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 1: course in the Nazis came to power and started, for example,

1199
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,760
Speaker 1: they destroyed the hospital where she had been getting her

1200
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: surgeries and her treatment, and they had, like you said,

1201
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:45,800
Speaker 1: that list of names, and they went and they tracked

1202
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: these people down. So it's entirely possible and maybe even

1203
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,600
Speaker 1: very likely. I'm sure, I guess this has to exist

1204
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: in speculation station, but that the Nazis would have killed her.

1205
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: She might have only lived a couple more years if

1206
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: that had not. So there's, you know something, if you're

1207
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,799
Speaker 1: looking for a silver lining here, there might be something

1208
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: historically beautiful about the fact that she kind of got

1209
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 1: to go out more on her own terms, or at least,

1210
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, through her own decisions, rather than the worst

1211
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: people of all time coming in and quite possibly killing

1212
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 1: her in a very horrible way. Yeah. Yeah, So silver

1213
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: lining is that she didn't get killed by Nazis. I

1214
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: don't know, but yeah, that's a it's a bummer of

1215
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: a silver line. It's a gray lining. Could have that

1216
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: sparkled to it. It's a very stormy gray lining. Oh well,

1217
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: there's an upper for you. I know. I wish there

1218
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: was a like, a yeah, more bright note to end

1219
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 1: on I suppose, But I guess you could say her

1220
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: her legacy has certainly echoed through history. You know, her

1221
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: book is incredibly important to understanding her journey and the

1222
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: journey of many who came after her. Right. Well, look,

1223
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 1: she died, you know, when she was too young. That

1224
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 1: that is tragic, but her life was remarkable, and like

1225
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: you said, it's an education still to this time. I mean, look,

1226
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: I I learned so much just from doing this episode.

1227
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: How people are learning something similar from listening to it

1228
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: if we managed to, you know, make any sense out

1229
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: of it. But um, but about the trans experience, the

1230
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: evolution of the trans experience, about history in general. There

1231
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about history right here. Um and uh,

1232
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: and I'm really fascinating. I think she gave a those

1233
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: memoirs really gave us a really valuable perspective and throughout

1234
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: her struggles she got to live a pretty doe past

1235
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: life and she got to live us herself, you know,

1236
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: for for for some time, and she had a lot

1237
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: of love in her life, which I think is so

1238
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,759
Speaker 1: wonderful to find out. It could have gone so differently.

1239
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: I could have left her and thought that was so weird,

1240
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: and all her friends could have abandoned her. She could

1241
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 1: have never found Kurt Vona Cross. I mean, it could

1242
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: have ended so so differently long before any of this,

1243
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, anyone could have just like shamed her into

1244
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: living as I and are throughout the rest of her life.

1245
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:18,560
Speaker 1: She might have lived at ninety years old as I

1246
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: aren't been miserably unhappy the whole time, right, or thrown

1247
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 1: herself into a river as she planned in right. So yeah,

1248
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: I think that's valuable to learn that your love and

1249
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 1: support can literally save someone else's life. Absolutely. I really

1250
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: do hope that you all took something, you know, even

1251
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: close to what I took from this story through our

1252
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 1: telling of it, because it's really fascinating. Um, But please

1253
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: let us know what you did. Think Again, we said

1254
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:46,759
Speaker 1: this last time, but I'm I'm so interested in feedback

1255
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 1: from this one. Um. Such a fascinating story to me,

1256
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: so please reach out. Of course, you can get us

1257
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 1: romance at iHeart media dot com right or on social

1258
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 1: media Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Dianamite Boom and I'm

1259
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 1: at a great It's Eli and the show is at

1260
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 1: ridic Romance and we're gonna be coming back again next

1261
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: week with another crazy episode. Oh we didn't even mention

1262
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: this episode is fifty two, that is halfway through the

1263
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 1: years it is. Well, we're gonna pop bottle of champagne tonight.

1264
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: I think we've still got some left over from our

1265
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: New Year's party of January of So congratulations to us.

1266
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: Y'all go fix yourselves a drink in our honor um

1267
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:31,639
Speaker 1: and uh and have fun this weekend. We will see

1268
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Speaker 1: you all at the next episode. Cannot wait. I love

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Speaker 1: you by bye bye, so long friends, It's time to go.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so listening to our show. Tell your friends names

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Speaker 1: uncle Sandance to listen to our show Ridiculous. Well Nance